Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is truly one of my favorite people on the planet. It's Erin Moon. I was an immediate fan of Erin's the second I heard her on the Bible Binge, a podcast that has now been rebranded as Faith Adjacent. Every time she spoke or shared something, I was like, me too. Me too. Me too. If you've ever connected with someone you've met on a deeply personal level, then you will know my genuine affection for Erin. I won't lie and tell you that she's only on the podcast because she wrote a good book. The truth is, I was looking for any excuse to have her on anyway. But lucky for us, her book, I've Got Questions, is legitimately good. I laughed out loud while feeling so seen and encouraged to keep wrestling with the parts of faith that just don't make sense. Here's my conversation with Aaron.
Well, actually, Erin, I have a really important question. The very, very first question I want to ask you on Becoming Church is super important.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Do you ever feel like a plastic bag?
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Do you ever feel like a plastic bag? Listen, I felt when I got that plastic bag on the COVID approved was epic. I was so happy. I was so. Because, listen, if we're not all listening to theologian Katy Perry, then what are we doing exactly? You know what I mean?
[00:01:44] Speaker A: If we can't find God hiding in every corner of pop culture, in songs and movies and TV shows, what are we even doing? Or are we even paying attention?
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Hey, that's the question.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: That's the question. That is one of the questions. There's so many questions.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: I have many, yes. I have many, yes.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Well, for people that don't know you yet, you are the resident Bible scholar on Faith Adjacent, which is my. Yes. I'm saying this as a host on my own podcast. It is my very favorite actual podcast in the whole world.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: That is. That's very nice. Thank you. You should definitely go leave us an Apple review, because not a lot of people think that we would love that opinion.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: We would love.
I like the Rev says, and you.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Are one of our, like, one of our cadre of actual reverends in Faith Adjacent, the Faith Adjacent community. And so, like you, you know, lend us legitimacy a little bit. So we're grateful for that. We're grateful for your actual knowledge, your actual biblical knowledge, pastoral self. That's what we love.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Even if it does come from Googling. Like, what Bible verse was this? Like, I don't know. I get there eventually.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: You know, Listen, listen. The. The monks used, like, a codex. We use Google. It's the same thing. Okay. It's the same thing.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Right. So what is faith adjacent is how old Now, I know it was the Bible binge, and then it shifted. But it's.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: I'm so bad with time. Maybe seven years, something like that. Yeah, yeah. And I did not start off as the resident Bible scholar. I used to just do operations for the pmg. And we had our friend, Elizabeth Hindman.
Yeah. She was the original Bible scholar, and she did such a great job, but she was like, I actually. I have a real job, so I can't actually do this anymore. And so I was writing and editing Bible studies at that time and still do that and have done that for a really long time. And so I jumped in, and it's been so much fun.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so much fun. What's your favorite episode that you've. That you've done or one of the favorites?
[00:03:53] Speaker B: I think there are so many. Like, Evan and I were recording yesterday, and he said something like, you can go to our catalog of 275. And I was like, 275? Oh, my gosh.
I think it was the Esther season that we did.
Because what I loved about it is one, Esther is so historically rich, and I love a melodrama, and, like, as a theater major, I love a melodrama, and Esther is technically a melodrama, and which is so fun, and it's just so bonkers and so wild. And at the same time, we got to experience my other co host, Jamie golden, kind of working through the fact that, like, maybe Esther is not historically poor.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Jamie.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect. And so she was like, but wait, how is it still? And so it was just, like, working through that. Like, just because it's fiction or just because it's a parable or, you know, whatever, that doesn't make it less true.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: So that was a fun. That was just fun. And it's just always fun to throw her off.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Well.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: And that's one of the things that I. I think I truly. I've loved y'all so much. And because I've been there since I think episode one is that not only are you helping people think about what they believe, but, like, we're actually watching you guys walk through it as well. We're watching you and Jamie and Evan and Knox in real time. Go. Like, I have always thought this thing about this Bible story or this verse, but, like, what if I'm wrong? And maybe it's something different and it's just so real and relatable.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Well, it's very terrifying to do that in front of the Internet, but I think it's good practice for all of us who are believers. I think it's really good practice for us to work that muscle and be like, hey, hold on. And we need to normalize that. We need to normalize going. I thought that this is what this said, but it turns out that it's actually not. And it's different. Or there are, you know, 12 different ways that someone could interpret this verse. I had no idea. Yeah. And just kind of working through. I think that's. I think we should normalize that.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you're modeling that for us. You're modeling it as we listen to watch you guys have these conversations. Did you know you would be like a supermodel for Jesus? Look at this.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. You saw it. You're so pretty.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Can you put that on a T shirt?
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Actually, I'll make it just for you.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: I'll buy it. I'll buy it. How has being part of faith adjacent changed the way that you view Christianity or church?
[00:06:21] Speaker B: I mean, I think it's what you just said, like. Right, It's. It is.
It is that there are a million ways to be a Christian, not just the very typical, you know, evangelical way of being a Christian. Like, I have learned so much about ether Eastern Orthodoxy, and I have learned so much about these. These concepts or these interpretations or these translations of Scripture, of ideas, concepts that I never came into contact with. And that wasn't. That's not bad. It's just. It wasn't a part of my upbringing. So, like, you know, I wasn't. I wasn't Catholic, so I didn't get a lot of, you know, hagiography about, you know, St. Jason. That wasn't something that came across the. The Southern Baptist Convention feed every, you know, once in a while. So I think it's just been so. It's. It's. It has made me fall in love even more with God and the way that God has kind of imbued all of these different aspects of him and these considerations of him and interpretations of him in different cultures and different pockets. And it's. It's really beautiful. Like, it's genuinely very beautiful.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: And it's one of those things, too. It's like once you. Once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Oh, no, you absolutely can't.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: You know, but it's like getting people to that. Getting to them to that point after that place of like, hey, let those scales fall, baby doll.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Like, yeah. And. And it's okay. And it's terrible. Listen, it's terrifying. It really is. And I have a lot of empathy for people who are scared to do that or who don't want to do that, because I. I've been there before, and it feels like you're walking out onto a frozen pond and you're like, I don't know, is this gonna go like, you know, is this going to go like Joe and Lori and they're going to skate off and everything's gonna be fine? Are you gonna be Amy and you're gonna fall through the ice? We don't know. We don't know. It's a. It's a journey, you know.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: Do you remember, Aaron? Was there a particular thing that, like, I know often you've talked about, you know, deconstruction or rethinking what people think as, like, you know, pulling it thread or a tangled necklace. Do you remember what it was that caused you to start that initial pull of, like, maybe this could be different?
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I do. I was in college. I was probably about 20 or 21, and I was on the university leadership team at my church, which just meant, like, it was three girls and, like, 12 boys. And of course. And I didn't actually think anything of it at the time until this event happened, but, you know, we would help lead events. We would. You know, I was saying in the worship band, we would have like 6am Devotionals on Thursdays. Like, what are you making college students do? That's insane.
But I. Our. My university minister, I found out that he was leading the boys on the leadership team through Wayne Gridham's systematic theology. And I was like, I want to do that. Like, why. Why are y'all just doing that? I want. I want in on that. And so I talked to the other two girls on the. On the team, and I was like, let's ask him if we can do it. Like, why would he not be able to do it? Like, it's probably just something that they just spontaneous started and they didn't mean to leave us out. You know, whatever. It wasn't intentional at all. And so when I asked, he looked at me and he was like, you should get a. A lady to walk you through that.
And it was. And I mean this. It was genuinely the first time I was cognizant of The. The idea that there were people who believed that there were parts of the church for men and parts of the church for women.
And it was. It like, kind of radicalized me a little bit. And I was like, but, and, and we, and to be clear, we did get a woman to help us walk through that. I do wish it hadn't been Wayne Grudem, Systematic theology, but, you know, it's a different time. I didn't know any better at the time, but I was so. I love talking about the Bible, I love talking about scripture, I love thinking about spiritual things. And so I was just like, wait, you're just not gonna let us in because we're girls and you wanna have, like. So it was. It was very frustrating. And it was really that first time that I was like, hold on, there's some stuff going on here that I don't know that I'm into. And I wanna look. I wanna. I wanna pick up these rocks and kind of look underneath it to see what's going on.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: So did you start then on your own, like researching and learning, or was that just your. Your brain just kind of started?
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Question? Yeah, I mean, I. And then I started, you know, and it was gradual. I was a penal substitutionary atonement girly, like with a. With a John Piper, you know, wing. And it was. I was aggressive and. But the more so when I started kind of branching out from just the typical.
Well, and actually I read what's so amazing about Grace by Philip Yancey. I don't know if you've read that book. It's. It will rock your world. And it did that to me. And I haven't. I mean, I haven't read it in 20 years, so I have no idea if it's held up or not. But it was so eye opening and I was like, am I thinking about this? Am I like, are there other ways to think about this? What. What's. What's happening here? And so it was just that. It was just that kind of. I have a. I have a very annoyingly curious personality. Many people think. Many people have said. And so I, I just. I wanted to find out more. And I was like, oh, okay, this person interprets this scripture this way, and this person interprets the scripture this way, and this person doesn't even believe in hell, like, what's going on here? So it was just that. It felt like. It felt like I had been kind of in one section of the Museum of Christianity, and then I, like, looked at the map and I was like, whoa, There is, like, we're getting so specific out here. We're looking at, like, 18th century classical paint, you know, whatever. It was just like, oh, there's so much more here to explore. And I really loved that. That was really exciting to me.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: I love that analogy because I'm like, same. I'm like, oh, I probably just lived, like, in the gift shop.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah. There was no actual.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: No actual history, no art, nothing that actually mattered, except everything was just, like, shiny and then there to make you happy.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: You got a magnet and you got a Rosetta stone tote. Like, that's so important.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Yes. That's a great anal. I love that.
I'm gonna break in really quick because I forgot to say happy New Year. I'm believing that there are so many great things ahead of you in 2025. There are things that you'll wrestle through, things you'll fight for, and things that you celebrate. If there's anything in particular that you'd like to hear here on Becoming Church in upcoming episodes, please reach out to me on Instagram hristenmachleryoung or send me a message at BecomingChurch TV. I'd love nothing more than to deliver conversations that you want to hear with specific guests or on particular topics that will help you become the church. All right, now let's get back to being curious.
All right, well, I do want to get into more about questions and your curiosity, but I've got your book right here.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Look at that.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: I've got questions at the spiritual practice of having it out with God. And so before we dig into this, we're gonna play a quick game.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Oh, I love a game, and it.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Is a cheesy question inspired version of favorite or forsaken.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: I'm right.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Just for you.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Not ready.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Is it good for the Christians, bad for the Christians? For you personally?
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Okay, I'm ready.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: You have to really make these connections. Like, I should have worked harder here. So remember, question Inspired.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Okay, I'm ready.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: Doctor who. Favored or forsaken.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Oh, favored. No question about it. I love Doctor who.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Okay. Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Favored because of the theme song?
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I do love that theme song.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: I was so intimidated by that show when I was a kid that I would, like, turn it off because I'm like, I know none of these answers, and I really hate it. If I can't achieve and win here, I'm out.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: I'm out. Not interested. We had a Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego computer game.
Yeah. That lived on our kitchen computer. And I wore that thing out. I love it.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I love a kitchen computer right by the kitchen phone with, like, the super long cord so you could take.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: It around the corner with some big, big speakers on the side. Oh, yeah.
Brutal. Brutal.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: All right, next one. Next question. Inspired favorite of her, Sagan, when there was me and you, obviously from High School Musical.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Oh. All High School Musical content is favored. No question. Like, not one bit of it is not favored.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Yes, it's. It's no bop to the top.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Well, you know, it's. I mean, it's no night to remember, but. And listen, I think as we're not going to deep dive on this, but I do feel the need to say that the over of High School Musical does. Does get better as you go. And it really reaches its pinnacle in High School Musical 3. There's some. I mean, because it was the only one that was released in theaters, so the other two were just released on the Disney Channel, which is nothing to be ashamed of. Okay. It's a cultural iconic show movement, and we need to respect it. Thank you.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: And it does. I agree with you. It gets. It gets better. High School Musical 3 is masterpiece.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Ah, so good. So, so good. Gave us Sharpe. It gave us all the sharpes that happened afterwards. Ah, brilliant. Brilliant. Love it.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Okay, next one. I probably should cut this one. It's so cringey. But I'm doing it anyway.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: I'm ready.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: K, so. Because K in Spanish is what?
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay, I like this. I really like this. This is good. So bad. So bad. All right.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: Queso favorite or forsaken?
[00:16:22] Speaker B: Yellow queso is favored.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: White queso is an abomination that.
Yeah. I've never had a good white queso. They taste like glue to me.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: As a Texan, I care a lot about queso. I. And I'm always going to prefer a yellow queso. I live in Alabama that doesn't care about yellow queso. And it is this. It is the tragedy of my life.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: So you're going no queso over white queso?
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely disgusting.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: That is. That is a strong opinion there.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: All right. The phrase because I said so favorite or forsaken.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. It's. It's definitely forsaken for me. Yes.
It's the worst. But I have said it to my kids when I'm just like, just do what I say, please. Like, I've tried to. I'm trying to make sure you don't run into traffic or whatever. Like, just because I said so, it's I'm. I'm trying to be a benevolent dictator. Why won't you let me.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Please, please, just listen.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: All right, last one. Jesus asking God, why have you forsaken me? Is that favorite or forsaken?
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I don't want to say it's favored, but it's not forsaken. I think it is a. It's a very human moment from Jesus, and I am grateful that we have it in Scripture. There's so many things I'm grateful that we have in scripture, but this is a particular one.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: What a gift to us to see Jesus, like, in the midst of the greatest suffering of his life, ask that question with the knowledge of knowing that it. He didn't. He wasn't forsaken. You know, like, I think that is such a beautiful thing for us to hang our hats on when we are in the throes of suffering, of loneliness, of depression, of anxiety, of all of these things. I'm also a proponent of medicine, but also it's very helpful to look at the person who we're supposed to be following and go, same, same.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Right?
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: I think we can favor him asking the question without having to favor what was actually happening.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Okay. I like that balance. That's good. I mean, you know, it's complicated because.
But I do like that. That happy medium. That's good.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Yes. All right, so I want to go to the foundation of this book. I've got questions and kind of. We're going to rewind for a minute here.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: When you were growing up, were you in a home that allowed you to ask questions like, is that part of your upbringing?
[00:18:53] Speaker B: Yes. So, you know, we did not really have the. Like, my mom is a. Is a teacher. She's an educator. She's been in that position in a lot of different iterations.
And we just. Like, my dad is naturally curious. And so I think there was never, like. I don't. I'm sure it was said, but I don't remember my parents ever saying, because I said so. I think, like, they were very, like, this is the reason. Let's have a discussion about it. And. And there were things that they put their foot down on. Obviously, I needed some discipline in some areas, but it was. There was never a. Like, if we asked a question. The only. The only time I talk about this in the book, so my mom won't be mad that I'm telling the story. And you'll probably have to bleep this, but you may. So you may have to cut it. But I did ask my mom once if was a bad word when I was, like, in fourth grade. And my recollection of the event is not the same as hers, but my recollection of the event is that she was like, I'll show you it's a bad word, and washed my mouth out with soap, which I think. I think more than likely what happened here is I caught my mom on a bad day. She claims this didn't happen, and there is a possibility that it didn't happen. But that is how I remember. That is my truth. So.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: So was it bar soap or liquid? Because I had both.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Oh, it was bar. It was bar. A liquid would be very, very difficult to get the taste out of your mouth. I feel like, wow, okay. We were. We had bad mouths. I like that. I like that. Where did we.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: I'm not sure that it was. I don't know.
I don't know.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Fair enough. Fair enough.
[00:20:38] Speaker A: What about God? Were you. Were you allowed to ask questions? Like, at church, were you allowed to question God?
[00:20:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I don't know that I did that a lot. Like, sure. I don't know. But there wasn't this.
There wasn't this stigma. We were not. You know, I grew up in this other Baptist church, but I did not really have what I would consider now to be a typical Southern Baptist experience. Okay.
Like, I have. I have talked to people now, heard stories from people now who. It was genuinely abusive or really restrictive or just not a place that fostered curiosity and questions. That was not my. Like, we did not. Like, we didn't boycott Disney in my church, I don't think. Definitely not in my house. We didn't. Like, we were allowed to go trick or treating. Like, that wasn't so. It was. We weren't. Like, whatever the church says is true, you know? Yeah.
But, you know, my dad and I are both pretty.
I'm gonna say aggressive people, and we really like to talk things out together, so we will be. I mean, this was true when I was younger, and this is definitely true now, but we would be, you know, talking about politics or talking about scripture or something like that, and it would make my mom so uncomfortable because it felt like we were arguing, fighting.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And we weren't. And I genuinely mean that. And we talked about this. Like, I. I know that just because my dad and I disagree on things, that doesn't mean that we don't love each other. And so at the end of the day, no matter what he's saying. I mean, he hasn't said anything, like, completely off the rails, but.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: You know, at the end of the day, I love him, he loves me. We are secure in that love for one another. And so it's very easy for us to kind of battle it out in these little arenas in the greater arena of loving each other. And so that makes my mom, who's an enneagram, too, very nervous.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: She hates it.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: She has to leave the room. But, you know, that has been, I think, a really big part. Like, I. I always want to, like, if there's a conflict, let's talk about it. If there's, like, a better plan, we could have, let's figure that out. Like, I'm just a very aggressive person. And so I think that also kind of those conversations with my dad. My dad's also been a Sunday school teacher for almost 40 years, and so he's very well versed in a lot of this stuff. And it's just fun to talk to him about it because we have different interpretations of things, and I really like that. And so, yeah, I grew up in a house that was. That was good with that.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: And it's culture. I think it's culture more than anything. And sometimes, like you said, I guarantee you, my parents and I have different versions of the same story.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Oh, my kids are going to have different versions of the same story. I have, for sure. No question.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: But are you and Ben, I would imagine you and Ben are raising your kids also in the same kind of environment of, like, how are you doing it? So that they know they can ask you questions and they can come to you and they're allowed to disagree.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: I think. I think what we're trying to do is we're just trying to foster that environment of also, like, we're asking questions, we're curious in front of them about things. Like when they ask a question about something like that maybe we don't know the answer to, it's like, you know what? I don't know. We should go try to find that out together. And so that has been so fun. As our kids are getting older and they're starting to think more critically, they're starting to think deeper.
And so it's just been really fun to go, okay, well, what do you know, what do you think about this? Like, what is your. What is your thought about this? What, you know, what are you hearing about this? What do you think this scripture means? And so I think modeling curiosity in front of them and Ben and I Do the same thing that my dad and I do is just like, okay, let's sit at the kitchen table and let's talk some of this out. And I think naturally the kids are going to see that we don't, we don't hide a ton.
I mean, obviously age appropriate things, but, you know, we. We really try to be kind of available for questions, available for conversation.
Even though now that I have a 15 year old, her sleep schedule is very contradictory to mine. And it is tough. No one told me about this, but it is tough. So I think we're just trying to be available and we're trying to model curiosity for them. We're not doing it perfectly.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Definitely. No, that's good. That's good. Like you said, even just modeling conversation, I think kids need to see us argue. Kids need to see us repair and apologize.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: 100. I think that's absolutely so true.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, Aaron, if right now you were in the heavenly Starbucks or wherever, and it could be God, it could be Paul, it could be Mary Mags, it could be whoever. Is there one question that you're like, if I just knew the answer to this, it would, like, just make your day.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Gosh, it would make my day. Okay.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: It doesn't have to be like, you know, is there one thing that you're. You're just like, it's always kind of.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: Oh, I really want to know what the giant hand. What it, what the giant hand meant in Daniel when it wrote on the wall, meeny, meeny tuckle parson. Like, I need someone to explain that to me. I would. I would really love to sit down with God and be like, tell me about why you did this with your disembodied hand. I would really. I'd really be interested in that. Right.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: How did this work? Did you give, like, supernatural peace of mind to the people so they did not freak out?
[00:26:09] Speaker B: Yeah, like.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Like floating here.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: Like, this is my beef with the Bible in general of, like, could we get more detail, please? Like, I want to know. I want to know. Like, interviews with people who were there. Like, you know, when you get an interview with someone coming out of the movie theater about the movie. Like, give me what people coming out of that banquet. What happened? Tell me what you saw.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Like, I want more experience.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: I want footnotes. I want liner notes. Let's do it all. I want it.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: I just. The inconsistency of details in the true.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Yes, that's what it is.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: 17 chapters on the type of fabric and the fur from a beaver, from A certain river, and it's got to be 109 inches long. And then we're like, also, there are maybe some women there. We don't know what their names are.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: We don't really know.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: They're all called Mary.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Like, yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about it. You're not gonna need to know them. So just. It'll be fine. God, this is. That's absolutely accurate. 100%.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so one of my favorite things that you say is that your unsouped heart is your most powerful weapon. What burden? And this doesn't have to be like, oh, you know, but like, what. What holy burden is on your heart right now that's pushing you toward some kind of change or thinking differently.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Okay. A holy burden. That's a. That's. I like how you put that.
I'm pretty burdened by, in general, a lack of humanity around. In humanity that is troubling to me. I'm burdened by, like, our culture of death. Sorry, this did get dark. No, no, I'm. I'm really burdened for men in general right now. Like, they are not okay. And I. I love men. I want them to be okay. And all the studies and all of the anecdotal evidence is saying that they are generally not. I listened to an incredible episode from Ezra Klein about the state of masculinity, and it's. They're just. They're going through it right now, and I think some of that is.
Women have decided that they are not super interested in just being a man's.
I don't know, cook and laundress and all of that.
They. They want to have their own full lives, and I think that is really, really difficult for some people. And so I'm. I mean, in general, men are not doing great, and I see that also with, like, young men that are my children's age, like, that is very. I'm very burdened by that.
There's an epidemic of loneliness that I'm burdened for. Just everything. Pretty much, I guess. Yeah. All things.
Yeah. Mainly most of humanity. I'm burdened.
I'm. Now. I'm. Now, as I'm articulating this, it's like, no, everything.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Pretty much. All the people. Pretty much everything.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm burdened by everything. Yeah.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: Yep. See, what gives me hope is because part of me. Right. Is like, well, men need to be a little uncomfortable, and I'm okay with that.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: You know, but also, here's what we do. This is what we do. As a society, we're like, here's a problem. So now we're going to swing absolutely to the other side. And I feel like maybe that's where we are and that we'll be able to kind of like, pendulum our way slowly back to a middle ground where men and women can actually figure out how to coexist.
[00:29:36] Speaker B: That'd be cool. I think we'll be.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: For everybody.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that would be a cool thing. And I think that, I think it's, I think you're absolutely right about that. There is a pendulum swing. There's always a pendulum swing. And we're constantly correcting what the next, like the, the generation before us has done. So I'm really interested to see what Gen Z is going to do after, you know, millennials leave whatever mark we're going to leave. And so I, I, But I think you're right. I think, I think, I think as, I think as humans, we struggle to find middle ground. Because extremism is so comfortable. Yes. Because you just, you feel so satisfied by extremism. And so, and I, I feel the same way as well. And so I think you're right. I think if we can, if we can learn to maybe iron some of that out, we might, we might find ourselves to be in a better place.
[00:30:30] Speaker A: Yeah. In Jesus name. Let's go. I mean, I don't have an answer.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: But I don't either. Let's go.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: All right, so at the end of your book, at the end of I've Got Questions, or towards the end you have a chapter called what if We're Wrong? And I did not want to read it. It's truly like, this is the thought that haunts me. Like, this is the thought that has literally sent me spiraling down a tunnel multiple times. How do you keep yourself from spiraling with that thought?
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Well, we're all wrong. I mean, we are wrong. That's just true. And everyone in scripture got something wrong except for, you know, Jesus.
It doesn't say, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever has correct and perfect theology will have eternal life. It doesn't say that. I wish it did. That would be so helpful.
And so I think I find comfort in the fact that there's not one person, like, nobody gets to heaven and gets a gold star from Jesus that says, hey, you did it. Perfect. We're so proud of you. You're the only one that ever did.
I think really what I try to focus on is, am I. Exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit in whatever this behavior or concept or belief is. And then would the people around me agree?
And I think that is also really helpful. Not that. Because I'm not talking about beliefs, I'm not talking about doctrine. I'm not talking about dogma. I'm talking about the way you move around in the world.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: What, what does your belief do to that?
What does your belief do to the way you interact with people? The worldview that you have?
I think that is, that's key for me. And then, you know, how am I bringing the kingdom of heaven to earth? How is it on earth as it is in heaven? What am I doing to perpetuate that? What am I doing to encourage that?
I can't get. I love thinking about theology. I love talking about theology. I love talking about the Bible.
I, I have to remember that, like, the Bible doesn't save us.
[00:32:50] Speaker A: Right?
[00:32:51] Speaker B: That's not, that's not what the. The thing is. Like, God's word is Jesus. And that's the thing that is going to.
That's the thing that changes hearts. That's the thing that changes us.
And so I think, I think I'm just really comfortable with the fact that, yeah, I am wrong about some things. Yeah, that's just true. And so I think. But that's, that's hard because humility. I'm not saying that I'm humble, but I'm saying, like, having that perspective of being like, no, I'm probably wrong about a good, a good 50% of it. Yeah.
Because we just. The Bible is clear on like five things, really. And, you know, the rest of it is secondary, tertiary. And there's a million different ways to interpret that stuff. So I just don't know that we can, we can. I don't think that there's any satisfaction or any comfort in, quote, knowing that you're right because that doesn't exist.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Well, the difference I think is what I heard you underlying say, like, there's a difference in our head knowledge of what we believe and then what we actually do and how we live out our faith. And I think that's a big shift for people is moving from, and choosing to move from my belief is my faith and everything that I've been taught. And I believe it because somebody told me versus what does that actually look like lived out in the world?
[00:34:17] Speaker B: I think confirmation bias does a lot there. You grow up learning one thing and so that you get a little groove in your brain. It's like this. Okay, yeah, that's it. You. The infant baptism is bad. Whatever. You know, whatever it is. I. My children are infant baptized. So I'm not saying that they're bad, but, you know, it's like, okay, infant baptism is bad. And then every time you come across that understanding, that knowledge, that concept, you. That groove gets dug a little deeper so that the first time you hear someone go, info. Baptism is completely normal, and a lot of people do it, and it's completely valid. Here's the scriptural basis for it.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Right?
[00:35:01] Speaker B: You go, that can't be right.
My groove says that's wrong. And I'm not in. My brain is not interested in doing a new groove. Thank you so much. Yes. And so I think we. We just. We tend to just follow along those lines of what we initially learned or what we initially heard. Whereas if you're. If you kind of approach everything with an idea of like, I could be wrong, I could so be wrong.
Your. Your grooves are maybe a little. You're. You're gonna have a little more energy to pop out of your groove if you need to.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: I love, like, groove is now a spiritual word for me. All I can think of, the Emperor's new groove. And I'm like, I'll never watch that movie the same way now, because the.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: Best movie, the best Disney movie that.
[00:35:45] Speaker A: There is, it's got spiritual grooves.
[00:35:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: I don't know if I've talked about it on this podcast. I definitely mentioned it in a sermon once. But for me, when I was doing my, you know, deconstruction and unlearning and relearning at the same time, I was getting ordained to be a pastor, which was, you know, just impeccable timing.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Complicated.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: I remember spiraling, literally in a parking lot. I was like, I'm gonna wear out the concrete sobbing. Because I was like, what if I'm a false prophet? What if I am the one that is wrong and I am leading people straight to hell and I'm gonna get to heaven one day and God is gonna be like, you did so great, almost.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: And now not only do you not get in, but also all of these people that followed you, like, they don't get in anymore either. And that Aaron wrecked me for a while and wanted to send me back to my certainty and what I'd always believed, you know, and.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: But I also think that that is, like, a little bit of that is healthy.
[00:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Agree.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Because I think. I think we love to deal in certainty again, that extremism, like, it's very comfortable, and you have a Lot of social validation from it. But when you step out, when you say something that's contrary to the social contract that is, it's, it's. You're meant to feel ostracized. You're meant to feel that way because that's the culture that we've set up. Like, no, we don't deviate from the agreed upon tenants. We don't do that. But I think, I think anyone who has a posture of humility, like, I believe you do, I've, you know, I, I've known you for a good bit on the Internet and I do think that you have that, but I think, I think that's healthy. I think we should, we should do those heart checks. Not to the point that it completely freezes us and causes us to not do the thing God's called us to do. But I think it's so good to look inward and go, why? What, what are my motivations here? Why am I believing this? Is this my confirmation bias? Or am I genuinely looking at scripture? Am I genuinely looking at other interpretations to see what other people think and what it, what, how, what is bringing me close to the heart of God?
[00:38:04] Speaker A: Right. And that's it. Through that whole process, I was like, do I feel closer to God? Do I feel freer in who I am and who he made me to be? Do I feel like my life is looking more like Jesus to the best that it. And all of those were a yes. So I was like, yeah, all right, well, I gotta go on that, you know.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: Yeah, you, you really do. You have to go. I think, you know, Paul is so helpful with his lists of vices and virtues that. But, but the fruit of the spirit is so, is such a helpful quote unquote litmus test that I think if you are engaged in those behaviors, if that is the posture of your spirit, I think you can be pretty. I think you can be pretty okay with, with, with how you're walking towards God and towards other people.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
All right, well, I want to know. I'm going to make you lean into your enneagram 3 tenderness a little bit because I want you to brag on yourself for just a second. I know I'm giving you a warning.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: Great.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: But now that it's finished, the book is here, like, you cannot change it anymore. It's in people's hands. What are you the most proud of writing in here or what is your.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Favorite part in this book, by the way?
Not being able to change the book after a certain time is a nightmare by the Way, can't imagine it is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. My editors were like, hey, girl, this one's not to change. Like, you cannot tweak this anymore. And I was like, but why?
[00:39:33] Speaker A: You're like, but I have a new thought.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: But I. But I said this incorrectly or I figured out a better way to say this. And they're like, sorry, this is it.
I think it's. For me, it's the Foraging in the Wilderness chapter.
So I talk about the Black Madonna of Montserrat in there, which is a monastery that I went to in Barcelona or outside of Barcelona, and essentially these shepherds in like, I don't know, 900 or 200 or something, I can't remember exactly, but these shepherds in the Catalan Mountains, they saw like this cave that the entrance was glowing. And so they were like, okay, well, we don't have anything to do. We don't have tick tock, so let's go see what this is about. And they climbed up these mountains and inside the cave, they found this statue of Madonna and Child. And it was black and gold. Like, the faces were black, and then it had, like, gold accents on it. And they were like, okay, this is. This is fabulous. We love this. We don't know what to do. Let's go back down the mountain and ask the religious authorities, like the, the priests and like, what we should do. So these old guys come up the mountain and they're like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. It's a miracle. We've got this Black Madonna. This is so cool.
And so they were like, well, we got to bring her down. Obviously, this is a miracle. She belongs in the church. And the legend is that the Black Madonna was like, like, no, I'm not going to move. Thank you so much. I'm going to stay here in the wilderness, in the mountains. And they tried many different ways to bring her down to the point that it was not possible. And so they said, okay, we're actually going to build your shrine up here since you're not moving. And what I love about that is that there are some things you can only learn in the wilderness. Like, you have to leave. You have to leave, like, organized religion, I think, to find.
So I love that invitation. That was such a powerful invitation for me. And then the rest of the chapter is about justice for Judas, which I definitely sure not a lot of people are gonna love.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: I'm with you on that. Yes.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: But I, I really just threw. You know, when you, when you, when you start to learn about how we got the Bible interpretations, English translations, all of the different, like, oral traditions that we get the Bible from. You just tend to hold that a little more loosely. Not necessarily, not necessarily. Like, I, it's not that I don't have like a, like a intense view of the Bible. Like, I, I love Scripture and I, I do think it's God's word. Not in the way that Jesus is, but you understand what I'm saying? Yes, but I just, through reading and understanding more about how we got these gospels and the purp. Some of these gospels, I've always just really wondered about Judas. I have a lot of curiosity about Judas. Like, why is it that essentially Peter and Judas did the same thing and we have two very different responses to that through, you know, according to scripture. And so I just, I just have a lot of questions about Judas because if Judas is outside of God's mercy, then I am outside of God's mercy. You know what I mean? So that to me, I, I, I love thinking about Judas and his role. And, you know, there's just a lot of different perspectives about why Judas did what he did. Was he always meant to, Was he like, was God moving him towards this? Is he an object of wrath? Like, what, what is this about? And so I've always, I've always really like to think about that. And I, that's really, when I get to heaven, that's the question. I'm going to be like, where, where, where is this guy? Can we have a conversation just real quick? I just, I have a lot of questions.
[00:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah, Well, I think this is one of the most surprising things for me in unlearning and relearning and rethinking and reconstruction and whatever you want to call it is seeing the way things unexpectedly, like, meld together.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: And so for me, you really taught me one of the things is like, the whole idea of not dehumanizing people with, like, social justice and whatever and, you know, marginalized people and people groups and all of that. And I was surprised when it bled into scripture. So, like, for me, that was the, the turning point for Judas. I was like, wait, but he was also a person and he, like, he also was a human and he made a mistake. Like we, and it just kind of, once you start to, like, I know things differently, it just affects everything.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: Well, you know, and that's what I love. You know, I'm a huge Chosen fan girl, so your episode with Elizabeth was just the best.
But I love the Chosen and I love what they're doing with Judas currently. Yes. I love the way that they are humanizing him. I love the fact that they are getting so much pushback for this, that he's not this, like, evil person, that he. He loves Jesus. And I, I. You know, that's an important aspect to this, that this is a person who made a mistake, a choice, maybe. And what. And what does that mean for who he is, for his beloved, his status as beloved? Like, what. What does that do? So I just. I. So these are just questions that I ask a lot.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's in the book. I'm also going to link up in the show notes. You have a post about Peter and Judas, and I'm gonna find that, and I'm gonna throw it up there for people to read, too. It was so good.
[00:45:15] Speaker B: And that. And that was. You know, Michael Card wrote a. Like, a spiritual biography of Peter called A Fragile Stone. That is one of my favorite books of all time. It's incredible. Michael Card, he's a worship leader, but he's also just like, I guess a brilliant theologian. But I love this book so much because it. It kind of. It kind of did that juxtaposition of Peter and Judas for the first time for me, and I was like. Like, oh, my gosh, what's going on here? This is. This is juicy. I like it.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna add that to my. To my TBR list.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: I will tell you that My favorite part of this book, and I loved the whole thing, but it's the footnotes for me.
I was cackling. Cackling. I was literally sitting in our office, and two of the other pastors were here, and they came around the corner of my office like, what are you doing? What are you reading? And I was like, it's Aaron's book. I mean, it is worth it just to go through and read the footnotes.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: Well, thank you.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: So funny.
[00:46:16] Speaker B: You know, I love Chuck Klosterman. I've always loved Chuck Klosterman. He wields footnotes like. I mean, like an angel of the Lord. He. It's just incredible. And so I. That is my homage to. To Mr. Charles. So.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: Well, I love it. It inspired me. I'm like, I now want to figure out a way to speak and write and do everything in my life with footnotes.
[00:46:35] Speaker B: I know, I know.
[00:46:36] Speaker A: Incredible.
[00:46:37] Speaker B: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: All right, last question for you, because the show is called Becoming Church. How can the people that are listening become the kind of church that people don't want to burn down, you know, to the people around them.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: I think it's.
I. I think it's. It's paying attention to the imago DEI and everyone. Yeah, I think. I think that really changes how we see people, how we see ourselves, how we see our place in the narrative of, Of God's story.
We. We have to see everyone as a beloved child of God and not as someone with an agenda. And that's hard. I'm not saying that's easy because there are a lot of people that I'm like, could we. Should we have, like, a meeting about this person with.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: Can we make an exception?
[00:47:31] Speaker B: Yeah, can we make an exception for this?
But I think. And that's something like, teaching your kids is really hard too, because kids are mean sometimes, like your kids and other kids, and it's very difficult. But I think the more we, again, exercise that muscle of, this is a beloved child of God. This is a beloved child of God. People that I don't like are beloved children of God. People that I maybe like, am tiptoeing towards, hate towards our beloved children of God. And, you know, people who don't believe the same way, people who actively hate what you believe.
This is all true. And I think just, even that kind of shift in this person is not my enemy. This person is a beloved child of God. That. That really helps us to see people in their belovedness. It helps us see people as God sees them. And we're going to automatically.
We're going to automatically have more respect for them. We're going to automatically not assume things about them that I think really get us tripped up, specifically Christians. So I think it's that. I think it's that practice of seeing a mago day in everyone.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: Do you think it's tied to curiosity? I'm like, just thinking. I'm like, how practically, like, if people want to start doing this, they're like, I can't do that because it is hard.
[00:48:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Like, do you think that's where it starts with curiosity?
[00:48:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it does. I think, you know, when you just assume that, you know, everyone's the reasoning behind why everyone believes the way they believe. Yeah. You get into a lot of trouble with that. And I think, you know, I think the more you can hear someone's story, I mean, it's proximity, right?
[00:49:12] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: I mean, Bryan Stevenson says it's all about proximity. And I think if you can get close to someone who is different from you, or if you can understand a little bit more about the Story of these people that. You know, I had a conversation with my kids the other day, and my daughter was really upset about something that my other daughter had done. And I was like, I'm. I'm. I'm having a hard time understanding your response to this because this feels really disproportionate. And after she explained how this incident, like, reminded her of a previous incident that she had had with some friends that was really difficult, I was like, oh, that. Okay. That makes a lot of sense to me. I had. I understand better. And not that I'm the harbinger of needing to understand everything, but I think when we can hear people's stories, when we can see their belovedness before we see them as a problem. Yeah. That. That's going to change things.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: We, again, hard. But in my house, I try to use the phrase, like, we believe the best. You believe the best about your sister.
[00:50:18] Speaker B: You believe. Yes. Positive intent.
[00:50:21] Speaker A: I don't know if they get it at all.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: Let me assure you, they don't. Because my. I say the same thing. I'm like, can we just not assume that everyone is out to get us? Us? That, like, everything is malicious. No. Like, sometimes people just have bad days or whatever, you know? But, yeah, that. No, they're not listening, I can assure you. But they will. It's. It's. It's getting in them, you know?
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Right. As I was gonna say, hopefully when they're in their 40s and they're chatting, be like, your mom said that, too.
[00:50:46] Speaker B: Me too.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: All the time. I had no idea what it meant, but now.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Now I got it.
Well, you are a delight. I absolutely adore you. Thank you for being here. This was so great. Everybody go by Aaron's butt. I have three copies.
[00:51:03] Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me. I have. I love your voice online, and I think. I think the way that you share and the things that you share and just who you are is so important and so vital for people to see. And so I'm just really grateful that our paths have crossed. I. I genuinely mean that.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: Oh, yay. Me too.
Don't you just love her? I knew you would. I knew you would. Erin mentioned a lot of things that we've actually covered in previous episodes with other guests, so I'm going to link all of those up in the show notes episodes, like what to do when you're wandering in the wilderness. We talked about that with Sarah Besse, how the chosen is reimagining scripture. We've got an episode with Elizabeth Tabish, who plays Mary Magdalene. I've got an episode with resources for men like Whole man with Rasul Berry and why we don't get gold stars in Heaven in the episode with Kimberly Stewart. I hope that you will go back and listen and then share your favorite episodes with other people who would also enjoy or maybe, you know, get something out of listening to this show. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.
