Becoming Church? Here’s what it means.

[00:00:00] Foreign. [00:00:09] Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mauchar Young. And today, in this last episode of 2024, we're doing something a little bit different. I know many of you will take these next few days or maybe even weeks to reflect back on the year and think about what changes you want to make for 2025. What do you want to do more of? What do you want to do less of? How have you changed or grown that you want to keep leaning into? And then maybe what are some of the patterns or habits that you don't really like that you've adopted? Who do you want to be in 2025, and what do you want to project to the world around you? As I was thinking about this for myself, I realized that I needed a reminder. I need a reminder that all of this matters. That Jesus is still good when the world doesn't seem to be. That God is still present even when he's hard to find. And that all of the time, energy, emotions, and mental acuity that's poured out into making the world a more loving, inclusive, hopeful place isn't all for naught. Jesus called us to be his church because he is the light that keeps burning. He is the strength we can rely on to keep going. It's his light that pushes back the darkness in this world. And we, as his people, as his church, get to be the windows that his light shines through. So I thought, what better way to remind us all of his call on our lives than to revisit some of my favorite responses to that last question I use to end every episode. You can say it with me now if you've been listening for a while. You ready? Because the show is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church around them? [00:02:01] Well, you alluded to it a little bit ago, but how has working on this project changed the way that you see Jesus or scripture? [00:02:10] So before the show, I was depressed. I think I was also. [00:02:17] I was very cynical about religion. And growing up, churches and church people always felt very exclusive and judgmental, and I never felt included in it. And so I think I mistakenly took Christianity as, like, I just thought it was church in a lot of ways. But at the same time, my mother would always talk. We would talk about Jesus and His message and. And it never felt like it was really syncing up with church. And I don't know if that was the church I was going to or the church my friends were going to. And I know that that's all very specific sort of personal basis, but. [00:03:03] But this show has reminded me of who Jesus is and how churches. We can't expect churches to live up to the same standard as Jesus. It's the same sort of thing, right? It's full of people, and people are messy and people make mistakes, and people don't always interpret things the way you hope them to or expect them to. And we all have egos and we all have. You know, there's just so much at play. And I think the mistake for me was always assuming that. [00:03:37] That the church represents Jesus, when really Jesus represents Jesus, and that the church and churches are places for people to share that love and to inspire each other to continue to share Jesus's love and. And to be reminded of what he taught and. And who. [00:04:02] Well, Dave, because the podcast is called Becoming Church, I'm gonna ask you one last question, which is how can the people that are listening become the church to the people around them? Maybe especially to the people that they're afraid of getting to know? [00:04:17] I think it starts maybe with a simple prayer where you say, God, give me your eyes for the way you see people. [00:04:27] And then, you know, because obviously maybe I don't see them the way you see them, but would you give me your eyes? [00:04:34] And then, then as you get to see people like you've never seen them before, you start to see them as really beautiful. Yeah. And, you know, even though even there's people of different political persuasions and people we like to cancel out of our lives, you know, you start to see everybody made in the image of God. And yeah. When they're acting up or saying stuff that's like, vitriolic or offensive, so almost you feel sorry for them versus just getting angry. You just feel sad. Yeah. And so I think when you get the heart of God and his eyes, it just changes everything. So I just tell people, once you just start praying, that simple prayer is that God would just help you to see people like he sees people. [00:05:21] I've been a fan of your work from the first line of out of Sorts, which was the first book that I read of yours and you wrote at the very beginning of out of Sorts, you wrote once upon a time. You had it all beautifully sorted out. Then you didn't. [00:05:35] Story of our Lives. [00:05:37] I think I put that book down and cried right then. I was like, one line. It. Because you had figured out a way to name, like, what I hadn't found words for as I was just beginning my journey of really taking a hard look in the mirror and saying maybe I didn't actually know everything about God or the church and the Bible. And I find so much grace, you hold people, your readers, in like this tender, motherly almost way. [00:06:04] And I would say that this is actually your sweet spot of like, holding the middle space for people who have doubt and uncertainty, but also are longing for something more. And so how did you find yourself? This is a very tricky. I know it can be a very lonely place. How did you find yourself, Your voice, I guess, in this position. [00:06:23] That's. That's an interesting. Well, thank you. I mean, yeah, I think that's the hope. [00:06:29] That is the hope. [00:06:31] I think I found my way there because maybe it was a little bit by accident, but I mean, me being me, I'm going to always point and say, like, well, I think it was a spirit. Right. And so you can take the girl out of the charismatic church, but you can't take that language away from me ever. So I think one of the things that emerged for me, I think because my own first experiences with deconstruction happened at a time when there wasn't this kind of support and community and conversation. There weren't books, there weren't podcasts. [00:07:01] And so for someone like me, who was, you know, 25 years ago, was very first kind of embarking on some of these things, it felt profoundly lonely. And I mean, there's a few different ways that people kind of embark on this season of your life, which I've now learned at this point is incredibly normal, no matter how much we've tried to pathologize it and make it into this big, scary, you know, terrible thing. Sure. That it's actually like a very normal part of spiritual formation. And if you're paying attention, you're going to kind of end up here eventually in some way, shape or form. Yeah. But at the same time, there was this element for me of like, I was. I entered so much into like a burn it down phase, just flailing and made so many mistakes. And I think probably some of the only mercies that I can point to during that time is that, you know, social media didn't exist maybe at quite the same level. [00:07:54] And so I didn't have a place for your ragey rants. Exactly. And so, I mean, I was blogging at the time, but like, nobody, nobody was reading it or paying much attention to it at all. I think I was blogging for like seven years before anybody noticed, which is A great mercy now. But there was this sense for me of, like, what did I need then and what would have served me well. And I think that that's maybe where I continue to kind of circle or maybe why I have, you know, a bit of a tenderness or a heart for people who find themselves kind of at that threshold is what are the things that served me well? What are the things that emerged over the years and years of navigating the wilderness and of, you know, what are the things that I gathered or learned that maybe would make the path a little bit easier for someone else, but holds that kind of room for both people's different stories than mine, and also the fact that they may end up somewhere very different than myself. And what are the things that would endure even there? [00:08:50] And so I think that might be part of the origin point. I remember, like, even when Rachel and I were. Rachel Hald Evans and I were starting evolving faith, we were kind of like, almost joking that we were creating the thing we wish we would had, you know, at the time. And so maybe that's part of it. [00:09:07] What are you doing now? Or what can our listeners do to become the church to people around them in their everyday lives? Yeah, I think it's very important. I think it's such a good question. In the fundamental spaces that I was in, it was all about, like. [00:09:24] It was so inward. It was like, how can we just inwardly make this machine work? And how can we give everything to our church? I mean, you were in the Bible studies. You were volunteering your time. Like, if you're going to volunteer anywhere, it's going to be at this church. And now I see, oh, my. Being the church in my neighborhood is vastly important work. And my neighbors aren't all believers at all. In fact, most of them, I would say, probably are not. And the act of hospitality, the opening our doors that are neighbors. Feel free to tell me things that are deep and tragic and, you know, tender to them. And for me to hold space for them feels like a sanctuary. And our backyard is like our neighborhood park, essentially. Like kids. My kids hardly even jump on the trampoline anymore, but we have that trampoline back here to, you know, for you to go to the ER at least once a year. And also because this is our ministry, like, this is. I want these kids and their parents to feel so welcomed that they. And so loved that they say, like, what is her God like? And that they would become interested through the ways in which we live and our aggressive. We call it aggressive hospitality. Like We. We ask neighbors over probably three times a week. And I'm not exaggerating. Okay, We. We. And they're like, no, we have lives. Like, we cannot live in your backyard. You're like, but what about tomorrow? But, yeah, but you. But I know you don't have anything tomorrow, so this is awkward for both. Both of us. And I'm just going to stare at you until you relent. But it's also like, we're in our front yard. We're like, people drive slowly in our cul de sac because so many kids are out. And that's unfortunate for them because then that gives us an opportunity to be like, Sarah. Yeah? What are you doing? Did you just come from tennis? Tell me everything. [00:11:49] So I think, like, you know, a little harassing our neighbors in the best way. But now it's just so commonplace that it's very, very common to have 10 couples in our backyard, you know, sharing. We go and make it easy. Like, if you're like, how do I do this? Make it easy? We have, like, Freezer Friday, which I just made up. I'm like, you can't. You can't make anything. It has to be from your freezer. Or, like, something that's in your refrigerator, hopefully not rotten, but the kids might still eat it. And we just come out with frozen pizzas. It's the most random thing. And all the kids are playing. There's no pressure. And to me, that just feels like, holy. And my ministry, and I'm just so happy in it. [00:12:48] So how can the people listening, not necessarily pastors, but just people that are listening, how can they become the church to the people around them? [00:12:58] Well, I mean, to be the church, to use, you know, the imagery in Corinthians, is to be the body of Christ. [00:13:07] And I think to the degree that our lives are reflecting the character of Jesus, the compassion of Jesus, the things that Jesus talks about in the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere, I think that's the degree to which we are becoming church. Which for me, I think the way that I've tried to explain it is that the greatest gift that we give others is our ongoing transformation in Jesus Christ. And that's the greatest gift I give to my children. [00:13:44] The greatest gift I give to my wife, Rosie, the greatest gift I give to the community that I have the privilege of shepherding. My ongoing conversion and transformation into Jesus Christ is the greatest gift. And I think that's for everyone. I think to what degree is our lives modeling and patterned after Jesus? [00:14:06] That's how we Become, you know, the body of Christ in our individual and of course our collective lives. [00:14:12] And I think that's, that's the greatest gift ultimately that we give the world around us. [00:14:21] But for the people that are listening right now who, who are also carrying legit church hurt. And when I say legit, I mean across the range, across the spectrum, everything from abuse to even feelings of I had to leave my church because of whatever reason. Right? Yeah. [00:14:40] What can you say to those people? [00:14:44] Not even to change it, like that feels like a big, a bigger thing, but like to help them not lose hope in the church. [00:14:52] I would say this, I would say Jesus is not problematic and he is good and wild and not always understandable. And I don't know about you, but I don't want a Jesus I can understand in a, in a one page PDF, but he's not problematic and he actually can handle your pain. [00:15:13] And I think one thing that has been painful for me in the past and painful to watch other people walk through is when people stop talking to Jesus about their church hurt or when they stop talking to him about their pain. And when, honestly, even when they stop talking to him about other people. Because here's what happens when, when someone hurts me or when someone disappoints me and I talk to God about it, my heart does shift towards them. It doesn't mean I have stay in relationship with them, doesn't mean I have to stay at their church. [00:15:44] But I stopped living in this binary world of like they're the villains and I'm, I'm the victim. And I realize again, like, okay, I'm sinful also. They're sinful also. I start to want good for them and I start to like, want healing for them. Even if that means repentance and even if that means, you know, them not harming people anymore. But I would say like talk to Jesus about your hurt, whether you're the leader or you're a member or an attendee, like talk to Jesus about it. [00:16:17] I would also say I would massively encourage people to find a church where you can be a part of growing it and shifting it. Because a consuming church membership, if you are a consumer, meaning like you go, you're frustrated, you're complaining, you partake, but you don't help cultivate the culture or the ministry. You're always going to be disappointed now and this is just for so many people, you, so many people may be at a church where they cannot help cultivate the culture and I would say that's really hard I would find one where you're. Where you're. I would especially obviously say this to women. I would especially obviously say this to any marginalized population, people of color. I would say this to any. To the, to those in the disability community. I would would say, absolutely. Find a church that welcomes you cultivating the culture and the ministry. I know Mosaic to be that kind of church. Yeah, I know that there are a lot of churches out there that say, like, we could actually use your help. If you see a problem, we could use your help. [00:17:24] And I would say, like, talk to God about his bride and, and just keep hearing from him about, about his bride. Let him talk to you about his bride. [00:17:38] And like, and the healing will come. It will come. It's a kingdom promise for us, and it's going to come for us in different ways. But, yeah, that's what I would say. Keep talking to God. Find a place where you can cultivate the culture and let him talk to you about his church, too. [00:17:57] Our listeners can do to be the church to the people around them. [00:18:03] So one of the most common themes of New Testament theology is the church, the people of God, as the new temple of God, that it's where God dwells. And so one of my favorite teachings is whatever you understood about what the temple was and how the temple functioned. One of my favorite teachings in session one, when it talks about the grand opening of the temple in Leviticus and then the grand opening of the temple in Chronicles, and the temple gets opened and the people always fall down on their face, enjoy. And they worship because the goodness of God and the love of God, that's what happens when the temple is opened. So one of my favorite teachings that I stole from Ray is, so when people meet you as a new temple of God because God changed addresses and he now lives with you, what should be, what should be their expression? What should be their response? They should fall down on their face and they should shout with joy, the Lord is good. His faithful love endures forever. And I don't think that's how the world is seeing, experiencing, or responding to the church today, which I think means we have some work to do generally as the people of God, that we would be more hospitable, more loving, more affirming, more instead of condemning, instead of, you didn't come to the temple and, you know, want to, want to, want to leave. You came to the temple and worshiped in joy because of God's love. So whatever we can do to put God's love on display to Put God's presence on display. That would evoke that kind of a response. That's what my. That's what my thought would be. Oh, that's beautiful, Marty. [00:19:53] How can people listening become the church to the people around them? And whether this is through worship, I mean, whatever. Whatever comes to mind. [00:20:03] Okay. [00:20:05] Okay, so see, this is great because I've been thinking about this like quite a bit. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. Okay, come on. We get down to Acts around the verse 42. It says this new body of believers devoted themselves to four things. To the apostles, teaching to fellowship, which I think is like so underrated. This is why I think it's a problem to where all of our energy is put into an hour and a half service on one day of the week. That is not what the church is designed to be. Fellowship is holy. Yeah, fellowship is holy. That's not talking about a church service. That's talking about living amongst each other even throughout the week on a day to day basis. Right. So they devoted stuff to apostle teachings, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, which included communion, which meant like actually eating meals together and remembering the Lord, right in the Lord's Supper. And it says enter prayer. So my point is, you notice the word they use is devotion. But for many of the Christians, they think that devotion is something that I do quietly by myself only. Yeah, right. But devotion is actually in community. The early church would be totally confused at the concept of even when the, Even when Jesus tells us how to pray, the first word he says is our. Yep. And every. And every. Every pronoun used throughout there is all plural. They're all plural. So every. When, when they, when they, when they remembered the scriptures, the way they learned the scriptures was amongst community. So, so I think the concept of community is lost. Churches, Churches turn into primarily an event and then we do like other shoot off events sometimes. But I'm like, I think the way that we become the church again is decentralizing our personal, ourselves personally and beginning to live in community once again on the day to day. [00:22:13] All right, well, my last question for each of you because the show is called Becoming Church and we are trying to equip people to be the church to the people around them. How can the people listening do that and be the church, Be good Christians, be good reflections of Jesus to the people around them? Specifically in this political season. Sarah, you want to start? [00:22:38] I think one of the most powerful skills that Christ illustrates for us is the power of story and parable. [00:22:52] If you're rolling into a political conversation and you're using words like fix, right? I know if you're speaking in sort of black and white directives, there's a reason he didn't talk like that, because I don't think it works very well. [00:23:10] You know, I think you. You hear us. We talk a lot about metaphors. We talk a lot about our own life. Explore. This is how I. This is how I've experienced that. This is the story that illustrates this for me. This is why this matters to me. [00:23:24] I think as much as you can lower the tenor of the conversation and speak in stories about your own experience, metaphors that make people chuckle or make people see that this is something that we're holding a little loosely, not because it doesn't matter, but because, as Bess says, no one expects us to leave our Thanksgiving table with an immigration plan. We do not have to submit that to the speaker of the House. It's not necessary. It's not going through committee. [00:23:57] The better. I think that, you know, when we get into these. These fist fights about really, really tough issues and they become black and white, and I'm right and you're wrong, and you care and I don't. And you want kids to die, and I don't. That's where we always go. That's just where everything goes right to the kids dying. We do not skip go. We do not click 200. We go straight to, you want kids to die. And it's not working, guys. And that's exhausting. And also, it's kind of stupid. [00:24:29] So I would just encourage everybody to, if you want to, you know, be the hands and feet, watch what he did, you know, like, watch how he spoke to people. And parables don't. As much as some people would like to say otherwise, they do not contain directives. They are not math equations where we read them and go, this is the takeaway. That's really not the point of a parable, because there isn't a point. That's the whole point is it's a question. And I think, you know, political conversations that are curious and contain more questions than answers connect us to each other, make us feel invested as citizens, and, you know, maintain relationships much more than debates where we're just trying to gotcha and win and. And. And, you know, own. Own the other side. It's not a YouTube channel. That's not what we're doing here. Yeah, Beth, same question to you. [00:25:30] My favorite Bible verse is Jesus wept. [00:25:34] Because I love the Jesus that was just really here and really cared about other people and really saw them. And I like to lift it out of context sometime and imagine Jesus, like, laughing until he cried or like seeing the preview of that new Tom Hanks movie about the one room and just getting, like, nostalgic, teared up about that. Like, I like to just imagine all the ways that Jesus saw people and that seeing and loving, translating to emotion. And I just think that's what the vast majority of people need someone to see them, to see the work that they're doing. Like, if you're a manager, the way to be Jesus is to be like, you know what? You keep these files really organized every day, and I take it for granted that I'm going to look for something and it's going to be where it needs to be. But that's because of you. And I want you to know how helpful that is to me. Like, you don't have to overdo it, but just, I witness your contribution every day, and it is meaningful to me. And I think in the political season, just saying, you know, I don't agree with you on many of these issues, but I see how much thought you're putting into it. I see how important this is to you. I'd love to hear about why this became so important to you. I'm curious. [00:26:51] I'm curious how we grew up in the same house and we see this really differently. What. What experiences do you think took us in different directions on this? Or here we are, here we are at church together and. And this feels real sticky because we know we're voting for different. I'm curious what we find here that, that we share that becomes disconnected around these choices. Like, I just think looking at people and saying, here is. What I notice about you is like, the most loving thing that we can do. And it's the hardest thing to do because we're all busy and our attention is consumed in our own experiences and, and especially if we have kids, you know, they. They soak up a lot of that bandwidth to see other people. [00:27:32] And so to me, the most Christlike thing we can do is just like, open our eyes to others and then use our voices to say, here's what I observe about you. [00:27:46] And then the last thing I would just say is this. I really do believe in the season that's coming ahead for all of us. As you just look at the calendar from the context of politics, from the context of church, from the context of our society, ethical questions and dilemmas, issues of justice, like, all these things that are coming our way I really do believe the thing that is hiding in plain sight that God is gifting to us to navigate these storms in a way that honors him, honors ourselves, and honors other image bearers of Christ is the gift of humility. And so my deep prayer is that this book, and really the book would just point you to Jesus and to take on the humble life of Christ so that you can navigate these very complex days that are coming ahead of us. [00:28:41] Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple indicators of maybe that you're in a very comfortable, curated community that just kind of repeats the same things and maybe doesn't have as much depth as maybe they could be there. [00:28:54] And one is, is that you, everybody around you is kind of saying the same thing. Everybody around you is. And again, we as Christians want to say the same thing about the primary issues of the faith, of our doctrine and all of these things. But when it comes to like other kind of social or human dignity issues, if everybody in your tight knit circle is just repeating the same thing, that's an indicator that you don't have diverse voices in your group. And diversity is important because the body of Christ is global. And when you get close to people, like many of us, like many of the church, started to listen to minority voices during all of the racial kind of reconciliation and, you know, realization that was happening in our country a few years ago, we started finally, you know, platforming minority voices. And it was like, wow, what? That, that's offensive to me. Like that I hear that, but that's offensive to me. That makes me feel very uncomfortable. What do you mean? I have privilege. I've never been privileged my whole life. You know, it's like these are the things. So it's like we have to hear diverse voices in the body of Christ because it actually makes us more Christ like. And so one, if an indicator is if you're hearing the same thing all the time being repeated, and there's never any kind of growth from that statement or any depth from that statement. Like if you couldn't explain one or two layers down from that, that's a big indicator that you're just kind of repeating an echo chamber statement. I think another one we just talked about was you're easily offended. Someone tells you something that's different than what you think or you feel or you know or you've been told, and your first response isn't a heart of charitability and of learning. It is and listening. It's no, I got to defend this point. I got to defend yeah, I've got to, I've got to figure out how you're wrong and I'm right. Instead of a posture of just listening and saying, wow, I've never thought about it that way. That's interesting. It doesn't mean you have to agree with whatever was said. It just means that you're like, huh. I've never thought about, like, show up with a spirit of humility and learning. I also think that if you find yourself in a place that looks very much like you, a very homogenous place, there's a difference between knowing about and knowing. [00:31:13] Knowing of an immigrant, knowing an immigrant and being friends with an immigrant. It's very, very different. A lot I heard this, I heard a lot of my black friends say this. Oh, no, no. You know black people, but you're not friends with black people. And because if you were friends with black people, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying, you know? And so I think it's intimidating to show up and get close in proximity. It's intimidating to talk about the issue. It's intimidating to you because you just feel like you're walking on eggshells all the time. And what I'll tell you is that showing up in a Christlike way with humility and a healthy dose of curiosity for people and for the conversation goes a really long way. I mean, in our women of welcome community, we say we don't have an agenda to get you from point A to point C, but we don't want to leave you where you are because we feel like God's presence and his desire for us to get close to people actually is not a stagnant thing. We're supposed to be constantly ever changing, to be more and more like Christ. If we think we've arrived, we haven't. You know, it's like, no, that's, that's something going on inside of you. If you think you've arrived and there's no more kind of change or evolution of renewing of your mind through the scriptures and your proximity to people. So I think you have to go scared sometimes. [00:32:35] Well, Ben, let me ask you one last question. Okay. Because the podcast is called Becoming Church, what can people that are listening do to become the church to the people around them? Yeah. Right now, in this very tumultuous time. Yeah. [00:32:48] I, I again, I think what we just touched on is embodying compassion rather than a desire to control really understanding legitimate concerns between being overwhelmed by despair. [00:33:07] And I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned in the last 48 hours is that I. I really need other people. [00:33:15] I can't. I can't navigate this by myself. [00:33:20] And being a pastor is very isolating as it is. As, you know, like, being a leader, you have. You're looked to for decisions. You can't look for other people to, like, hey, I'm. I'm breaking apart right now, and I need someone to comfort me, and I need someone to encourage me. And so in. In today's isolated world, part of being the church is to be Peter standing there with Jesus, saying, let me wash your feet. And letting Jesus do that, right? Saying, okay, I need it. I need to be comforted. Like, I'm not. I can't gut this out by myself anymore. And then turning and saying, who' feet need to be washed now? Like, now that I've gotten a little bit of hope, little bit of patience, how can I then turn and give that to somebody else, too? [00:34:07] And then being able to really listen and step outside of ourselves and, like, read history. Like, I, I cannot emphasize that point enough. Like, just read recent history in the 21st century of how Christianity, Christians have screwed up. Screwed up. When it's come to political movements in the past. Apartheid, Nazi Germany, the Rwandan genocide. Like, look at these. How Christians did on. On both sides of the spectrum. Like, how they responded really well in opposing these things and how they accommodated to power and used phrases like Romans 13, like, you just need to subject yourselves to this governing authority, even though they're doing harsh things. God's. God's in the midst of this, right? No, like, look at history and say, which who would I want to be a part of? Because you're living it now, right? You are living it right now. And so understand your history to be able to understand the present, and so you won't be doomed to repeat that. So those are the kind of things that I really encourage people to try and embody to be the church right now. [00:35:19] How can people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:35:25] I, you know, I think one of the biggest things that we've noticed is that women are so often silenced and sidelined and ignored. [00:35:37] And if the church is going to heal and be healthy, it can't dismiss 50% of its congregants. [00:35:46] So maybe the way that we be church is we listen to girls. We encourage them to use their voices, we listen to their opinions, because that's how we tell girls that. That they matter. Yeah. [00:35:57] When we tell girls that your job is to grow up and become a Smoking hot wife for some man so that she can be arm candy and then she gets to raise the kids and do nothing else. [00:36:08] That kind of dismisses all the things that God put in her, all the gifts that she has. Yeah, yeah. So perhaps the way that we're church is that we just start listening to girls and letting them use their voices. [00:36:24] All right, last question for you. Really quick, Jamar. [00:36:27] For people that are listening, this is the last question that I always ask everyone because the podcast is called Becoming Church. I want to know what people can do that people that are listening can do to become the church around them. Specifically for you. Maybe if they are in spaces where reconciliation work hasn't really happened yet, but they would like for it too. What can they do? [00:36:50] You know, it's going to sound self aggrandizing, but study history. I really think it's empowering. [00:36:57] First there's going to be the shock and surprise. I didn't know this. Why didn't anybody teach me this? Why didn't anybody tell me this? Then there's going to be. Shame's going to try to creep in. Yes, yes. [00:37:08] And then there's going to be a certain level of shock and outrage, which I think is actually righteous anger that things were so bad that honestly, while they've changed in some ways and improved in some, we still got a really long way to go. I think that actually lights a fire under you to be even more passionate and more determined in your pursuits and then find other people. Like you said, like, like we, we cannot do this alone. I think loneliness and isolation are the greatest enemies on this journey of justice. And find your people and it can even be online. [00:37:47] But yeah, as long as you know that you're not the lone voice in the wilderness and that God has other people for you along this journey, then I think we can persevere together. [00:38:03] So last question for you, Kayla. We talk a lot on this podcast about becoming the church outside of our buildings on Sunday mornings. So what is one way that parents and caregivers can become the church to the kids that they love? Oh my gosh, I love this question. [00:38:19] How much time do we have? Right? [00:38:22] Yeah, I love like being out where you actually live, you know, so we're getting to know our neighbors. We have a joy of being close to a park. Right. So being present in there and just being welcoming our kids, but also like our neighborhood kids into that and just like being present with them, you know, like, it doesn't have to be this huge thing. We can just like be with them. Jesus was just with people so often in his ministry, and we can do that as so often loving our neighbor is just showing up and just being there and experiencing life together alongside them. [00:39:12] Shannon, one last question for you. And I didn't prep you for this, so if you need a second to think about it, it's fine. That's fine. But as we are heading into a very politically divisive, what is going to be a very tense political season, you have, you know, the background that I don't have and many of us don't have. Is there anything in particular that you want to say to maybe even Jesus followers to Christians, especially when it comes to this political season? Things we should look for, not look for. Yeah, I mean, the door's wide open for any. Anything that you want to say to us there. [00:39:48] I think we should be paying close attention to the language and the words politicians and people are using to talk about other people. [00:40:00] So. Good. I think they're like, if we set the standard at perfection or like, you know, our ideal candidate, that's just going to be difficult. But if we can set our bar at, like, we're just, we're going to pay attention to, I think the word this is something I talked about in my campaign for little tiny city council. The words we use to describe other people tell us everything. They tell us so much. Yeah. And so if we can zero in on that and, and not be dismissive of that, not make excuses for the words people use, if we can really interrogate our own willingness to say, this is not. This does not reflect the heart of Jesus. Yes. Using disparaging, diminishing, hateful language. I mean, that's, that's my, like, base level encouragement. And then beyond that, I would say we need to keep our heads in the game. We need to stay aware of the process. Like so many of us. I hear from people all the time, like, I don't even listen to the news. I'm saying we need to. We can set our boundaries. I mean, right, We. We have to have boundaries. We've got to be able to sustain, but we need to, we need to stay aware of what's going on. And if we're going to do that, because that's hard, it's going to be hard for the next year. We also need to find our counterweights, which are things that help us to, like, you know, we're holding this heavy thing over here that's really hard. We need to hold really heavy, beautiful things over this other arm, you know, like to keep us centered, to keep us rooted in our lives that are complicated and beautiful. If we're going to endure and get through all of this, we've got to kind of stay connected to the hard things in some ways, but we've got to look even harder for the little tiny moments in our days and in our lives and find meaningful ways to create that rich abundance that we need to carry on. And so keeping track, finding a way to keep track. I mean, I'm literally like, keep a list, take pictures, whatever it is, and be able to say like, this moment right here is sustaining me. This, you know, with my family, these flowers growing in my yard. I mean, slowing down enough to notice what's good in our particular lives will help us along the way. [00:42:36] All right, Rasool, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How will reading this book of devotions help our listeners to become the church to the people around them? [00:42:47] Great question, and I think there's a couple parts to that One. [00:42:57] Jesus is the ultimate whole man, and he's the person that we look to that was incredibly strong, incredibly vulnerable, and completely integrated with mind, body, and spirit. And so the first step is to align yourself in relationship with him in order to live out what it means to be whole. You can't do it otherwise. But the second thing is so cool, too, which is that in Ephesians, he's referred to as the head of the church, and we are the body, and so we can't be fully functional. And then Paul would later go on to say that the hand cannot say to the foot, I have no need of you. Right. And so as people, as men, we are interdependent. We need each other as the body of Christ. But then also the head has to be attached to the body. So I have to be submitted and surrendered to him in my heart. But I also need to be in fellowship and in community with others so that I can be fully whole and. And not just a piece of a person off by myself. And so I think that when we go in that direction, we're able to be more fully human. We're able to be at a place where I'm like, hey, there's this stuff about myself that at this old age, I know I'm never going to change. Like, you know, I'm. I'm not a super organized person. I'm a forget things, I'm a lose things, but I can also do things, have some life hacks to make, make it a little bit better. So now I keep that Apple tag on my. On my keys. So that because I know me, I know I'm have to find it. [00:44:45] So. So those are the things that we can start to work around our weaknesses a little bit more and work into our strengths. And then also when you're around other people that you can. When you work with them, their strengths can cover your weaknesses. Then we become more and more whole together. And it's not like cover like I'm hiding it and pretending it's not there, but it's like covering it like I'm saying, yo, I know I need you, bro. I need you to help, you know, speak truth to me. I need you to help keep me honest in this way. And when we do that, we see our strengths grow, and then our weaknesses diminish in their impact on those in our lives, and we become more and more attached to the head who is Christ. [00:45:31] All right, so as. As these puzzle pieces, as these mosaic pieces. Yes. That we all are in God's story. And since the podcast is called Becoming Church, Right. We're going to melt these two ideas together. How can people that are listening become the church to the people around them? How can they play their part? Well, I love that. That is such a beautiful question that takes us out of looking inward and really points us to what it means to live a life on mission. I would say that every single one of us, we are that we are. We are the church. Like, we are the dwelling place of the living God. We are the temple. And what I love about that is that that means that wherever we go, we get to shine the actual light of Jesus in our lives and through our lives. So one way to do that really, really well, is by noticing where God has you. [00:46:28] It is one of the best ways, I think, and I believe, and Paul tells us this in Philippians, to fight discontentment, you must be hyper aware of the assignment God's given you so that you can show up fully where you are to give them everything God's given you to give them. So, yeah, you. You get to be the church and build a church as you are becoming more like Christ Jesus. It's this. It's this. It's called sanctification. Big word for we're all. We're all transforming. It's all happening at the same time, but we still get to live on mission. So go be set free. Show the people around you, the people you don't like. I'm gonna go there, right? The people that have betrayed you, the people that you may not like in your Family, your neighbors, they're yours for a reason. They're not mine. I have my own. Right? I got my own lot. I got my own field of steward. They're yours. I want to challenge you and call you up and say, a lot of the time in our lives, we struggle with discontentment because we're really wrestling through complacency. So, like, our complacency to live a passive life and a passive faith, most. Most of the time will get us to discontentment. But becoming the church and living on mission means we get to show up and say, all right, God, where do you have me? What do you have for me? And how can I. How can I be everything you've called me to be for your glory and my good? [00:47:48] Okay, what is your favorite way to be the church? Something practical that our listeners right now can go. You know, I'm going to pick this up. I can try this. Oh, that's such a good question, I think. Okay. For me, I would say. And this is something I'm actually, like, actively trying to work on is celebrating people. [00:48:08] So, like, I. Because my church in Florida, we. That was actually one of our biggest strengths was celebration. Like, we, like, just because it was natural at Disney, people get crazy and excited about all kinds of stuff. But in Portland, that is. It's kind of the opposite of that culture. Here, it's a very. [00:48:30] It's just. That's not the culture. [00:48:33] I was like, I could say a lot of this is not it. And so I've been trying to bring that into spaces. So, like, like yesterday at church, like, I made a bunch of bright pink cookies that I put way too much food coloring in and just, like, brought a giant bag. I was wearing my Valentine's Day sweatshirt and just, like, sat there and just, like, offered cookies. Maybe not the best idea in a Covid world right now, but, like, to everyone that was around me and, like, because that's the opposite of the culture at our church, it was such a fun thing and it, like. And I think that's an important thing. But the. But the discipline of celebration is something that. I don't know. I just think it's so important right now, and I think that's what I can bring into church spaces. Yeah, I think it's perfect. [00:49:23] How do you see being a holy disruptor in alignment with Jesus call for our listeners to become the church to people around them? [00:49:36] Yeah. Becoming the church is disruption in itself. What you're saying is that we. We are going to be the living church. [00:49:45] We are going to model and walk out what we are reading, preaching, singing, speaking about, praying about. [00:49:52] We are going to shift culture and we're going to flip this thing upside down. [00:50:01] Becoming church is literally walking in defiance to world systems. We will be love, we will serve, we will yield, we will surrender, we will welcome, we will equalize, we will give voice to, we will love on. All of these things are disruptive to the systems that are out there. [00:50:27] Amen. We will take it outside of our church building and our church hour into the world that actually needs it. Let's go. [00:50:35] Come on. It's a new way to live. [00:50:42] I really can't say it any better myself. I hope these sound bites have been reminders of what truly matters the most as we walk into a new year. I hope they point you in the direction direction of who you want to be, the words you want to say, and how you want to love people like Jesus. As you determine your resolutions or goals or words of the year, I am so grateful for your participation in this show. What started as an experimental discipleship tool for the people of Mosaic Church has become a much greater community of people spanning not only cities and states here in the US but over 20 countries of people coming together to bravely examine their faith, relearn religion and scripture, and get to know more about who God is and who you were created to be in Him. I cannot tell you what a gift it is when you share your lives and experiences with me. It's not something that I ever take for granted and this work is truly the highlight of my week every single week. If you haven't yet, please join me on social media hristenmohleryoung so you can help me ask questions of upcoming guests and share favorite moments or takeaways on the weekly posts. It's also a way for us to thank the guests who set aside time to be here with us when we can appreciate them in the comments. You're also always welcome to leave a review or just hit that five star rating if this is a show that you tend to gravitate toward. Until next time. Thanks for listening listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.