Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Somewhere along the way, following Jesus got complicated. And if you can relate to that, today's episode will help us to figure out how we got here and where we go from here. I'm Kristin Mauchar Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. My guest today is Hosanna Wong. She is an author, speaker, and spoken word artist who wants to help you break out of the expectations and find freedom in a relationship with Jesus. This conversation will ask you to humbly self reflect while also showing you just how much hope still exists for Christians today.
Hosanna. Welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to it.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Yay. Listen, I've seen you speak multiple times, but we have not crossed paths yet. However, we're about to do so at the Brave conference. Oh. With Jess Connelly.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Oh, yay. Oh, I'm so excited. I didn't know. Okay.
October.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Okay. I'm thrilled.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: I'm so excited to actually meet you in person.
Yeah. Jess, My first book is coming out basically, like, the day before Brave, and so she was like, come down here, bring your book, join the. The leadership team, and whatever.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: So of course she did that because she is so gracious and she is so.
What's. She just. She's so generous with her platform and her community, but she's not.
Lord, what's the right word? Help me, God. Okay, I'm just gonna say it. I'm. But. But picky. Like, she's generous.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: With people who love God for real and preach God's word. Well, yeah. Does that make sense? And so I don't want to say picky, man. You just wrote a book. What's the better word?
Jess would know. Yeah, she's. She holds the platform responsibly. Yeah, There you go. She's intentional. She holds her platform responsibly, but generously. So that just tells me a lot about you. But also, I'm so excited to all be together. That's going to be really special. Yeah, I'm excited. And you're just a three, four hour drive, maybe.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So Jess and Nick actually were my. The church that I get to pastor, be one of the pastor's eyes called Mosaic in Charlotte. And Nick and Jess were on our launch team when we launched, so they were part of our church, like, 20 years ago.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Okay. You're one of the church plants. Okay.
I was like, you guys have been a part of Church plants more than anybody I know. You're chronic church planners.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: You're one of them. You were the first, I think. Yeah. Okay. I love that. I had no idea. Everyone's hearing us, like, live, realize our connection. So I love this.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: We're bringing them in. It's great. And I'm going to put a link to the Brave conference in the show Notes. If people want to come and do this with us in person, they'll be able too.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: It'll be great. Yeah. Awesome.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Well, you are here to talk about your latest book, Uncomplicated, Uncomplicate it. But before we do that, I want to do a quick little, like, Q and A with you.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: And so your answers can be faith related. They do not have to.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Right. Okay, good.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: I'm like, anything goes here. Anything goes.
What is something that still feels complicated to you?
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Oh, it doesn't have to be faith related. Okay. I would say relationships.
I feel like the older we get sometimes being intentional with relationships.
I don't know if I would say it's tricky today. I probably a few years ago would have said it's tricky. I would say now it's. You have to know that it doesn't look the same way it did 10 years ago. You have to let it evolve. You have to change your standard of what relationships look like.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: So I would say still tricky, but also, like, you have to be intentional in figuring out what it looks like in your season. So I would say relationships, friendships, good ones, are still complicated. And I would say that in church more than anywhere, because one of the best things about church is how many different life phases are represented, cultures are represented, family dynamics are represented, and everyone's invited. And so we're all a mess. And that's one of the best things about church, is that no one here is a professional Christian. We're all a mess glorifying God. One of the worst parts about church is that we're all a mess glorifying God. And so learning how to have friendships now and relationships now, we can all come in with our own presuppositions. I certainly have. So I would say that's still complicated to me. But now I don't resign to this is too complicated. Now I'm determined to obey God completely in every part of my life. So, God, what can friendship look like for me?
[00:04:59] Speaker A: You lean into the complexities instead of, like, running away from them now.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I've never even said that out loud before or been asked that question before. Of like, what's something complicated that could be anything in your life? But I think we just need to say it because people are lonely and people are confused and people don't want to be too much. But then sometimes we're not enough pursuing people. And so it's complicated, but it's not impossible.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: I think that's a great answer, because I'm gonna venture that not one single person that's listening is like, nah, I disagree. Like, relationships are.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Friendships are so easy. Everybody loves me. No one's against me. So great. Everyone's for me, roots for me, mourns with me. Like, 10 out of 10, no notes, all the things.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: All right. On the flip side of that, what is something that you've learned to simplify?
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Oh, I would say simplify time with God. I think that's something that used to be really complicated to me because I've had routines that worked really well. And then when my season evolved, my city changed, my role changed, my family dynamics changed.
Not for any negative reason. I think for good reasons. I assumed this still has to look the same way it's always looked.
I have found routines that have made time with God so real and personal. So it must look that exact same way in every season.
And I think at some point in my life, I realized, oh, that's a lie from the enemy. God wanted a real relationship, relationship with me then. He wants a real relationship with me now. And so now in this season, what does this look like? And that means that the way I read my Bible today doesn't look the way it did five years ago. Oh, no. Like, is that allowed? And like, how I am in a Christ following community doesn't necessarily look the same way 10 years ago. And my prayer time doesn't look the same, and my time with my husband doesn't look the same. Like, things I wasn't sure I was allowed to do.
I've now realized, oh, I was trying to meet a standard that didn't come from God. I was trying to make a mark that didn't come from God. I made this up in my mind, right? So I would say my time reading the Bible and talking to God is simpler than it's ever been.
And thank God.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank God. And we'll get into that more. I know we'll get into that more in the book because there's definitely, you know, you were guided there. Hosanna. Like, yes, you. It was of your own making, but there were some guide rails. So we will dig into that in just a Second, what's something that you're enjoying right now?
[00:07:33] Speaker B: I'm enjoying.
Me and my husband started taking boxing classes together again. This is so simple. I don't know. Are these the kind of answers people give? Okay, good.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: The answers that I want.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Okay. Praise God. We just needed a hobby. There was no, like, deep spiritual thing.
We needed a hobby together.
You know, like most people, we have full lives. We have family members and friends and church and work and house projects, and we just needed a hobby. And so we go boxing six days a week, in the morning together, if I'm in town. So he. He'll still do it, or I'll still do it if one of the other of us is in town or not. But most of the time, we get to do it in the morning or the evening, depending on my flight is my flights in the morning or evening. Sometimes I'll land and go boxing. Sometimes I'll go boxing and then go fl.
So we've just made it a point to go boxing together. And it's making me so happy. We have, like, friends at our gym that, you know, aren't in any other part of our lives. And it's like a class.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: It's not just the two of you, like, duking it out.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Right.
You're like, this is how we deal with our marital relationship.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Here's how. I've uncomplicated one relationship. I put on my gloves. I hand him a Bible.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: With a glass. There's multiple people, and there's no punching each other.
I love it.
I love it. That's so funny. Yeah. And that's just been good. That's just been good and fun. Yeah. I'm thankful for that. We just needed a hobby. I'm not even passionate about boxing. It's just like, oh, yeah. I get an hour with my husband. This is awesome.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: It's fun. And then you also. You get out. There is something too physically, like getting out anxiety or stress or tension or whatever.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: So, yeah. Totally unrelated to each other, of course.
Of course. The other people in our lives. And clearly, I'm perfect. So. So we have no questions there.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Nothing to do with it.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Clearly.
Yeah.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: All right, last Q and a little quick, quick Q and A for you. You're known for spoken word, and so this might be tricky, but I want to know what is one word that comes to mind when you think about Christianity right now?
I know.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: I'm sorry.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Any word is an okay word.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Improving.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Okay. Look how hopeful that was.
So hopeful.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: If it was two words, I would have Said trending upward. So, yeah, that's what I mean.
Getting better. I like it improving. I've never felt more hopeful.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Do you want to expound on that?
[00:10:00] Speaker B: I just think a lot of us have.
What do I think? I think a lot of us have been able to see kind of the things that we learned that were wrong, expose some of the lies we were told. And then I think at some point it was just really negative because then we were realizing things we didn't know, and we were just really critical and we had really hard hearts, and some of those things needed to be criticized. But we didn't want to stay with hard hearts without solutions. We don't want to spiral in bitterness. And so I think through the power of the Holy Spirit and having a real relationship with God and a love for God's church, not a hatred, but a love for what the real church should look like, I think a lot of us have prayerfully tried to think of how we can be the solution in our spaces, in our places, with our voices. What you do here in this space, what I do in my spaces.
And I just think now there's. Just.
When all of us are doing that, I feel a renewed hope. When I go into churches all over the world, I feel a renewed hope. I feel a.
Yeah, I've never felt more hopeful. That's. That's truly how I feel. Not that I'm not also grieving.
Sure. And not also critical. But I'm critical of some of the things in myself and grieving, some of the sin I've seen in myself.
And for me and for the capital C church I'm a part of, I've never had more hope.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: I love that. That's so beautiful. And I'm so excited that this is only the beginning of the conversation.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: I know.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: And that's all, folks.
All right, so I have your book right here.
Uncomplicated. And this title can only come from someone whose relationship with God, I'm assuming, was maybe at one time complicated.
So tell us a little bit about how your relationship with God has evolved.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: Well, I started with a really uncomplicated relationship with God. Really simple. I grew up on the streets of San Francisco. My dad battled a Heroin addiction for 15 years. Fought in a gang. A woman introduced him to Jesus. Jesus changed his whole life. He started an outdoor church to our friends, living without homes and battling with addiction on the streets of San Francisco. That's how I grew up. That's how I learned church people brought their drugs, their alcohol, and the gospel Was so simple to me.
And Jesus was available for everyone and he wanted to use all of us to tell more people about him. And all hands on deck all the time. Like, my dad would have all of us kids and our whole crew. Like, sometimes we were making the sandwiches, sometimes we were folding the clothes, sometimes we were leading the altar call, sometimes we were taking photos, sometimes we were taking out the trash. Sometimes he had to go pray for someone. So we had to finish the sermon, Sometimes we had to sing the song, sometimes we had to pack the car. And every way to serve people and serve God was all on the same playing field.
Nothing was worshiped, no person was worshiped. And if something was public or private, it wasn't seen as more important or less important.
And all these people came to know Jesus.
And then When I was 18 years old, my dad got cancer and passed away.
And then I started having other experiences and other Christ following environments that were very different. Okay. I mean, I didn't know about the other churches. I didn't know about what I, what I used to call organized churches. Like, I didn't know about the indoor churches.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: I didn't know about.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: I didn't know. And sometimes there was things that were complicated to me. Like there was words I didn't understand or concepts I didn't understand. Certainly, like just my own gaps in knowledge. Sure. But then there were people who were really mean and unkind and unwelcoming. And I became very confused. It didn't line up with the Jesus I learned about on the streets, and it didn't line up with the Jesus I read about in the New Testament.
So I started thinking something's wrong with me. Like, you know, like my dad didn't teach me everything I needed to know. My parents weren't educated enough to tell me all of this. My, my church was wrong. Like, I started thinking, like, what's wrong with me?
And so I started to. I think I started to overcomplicate it. I don't think anyone told me, now you have to be like this. Yeah, Maybe subtly, but I just think I assumed, like, this is real church.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: This is what I have to look like to really be a Christ follower. Oh, this is how they talk. This is how they dress. This is the music they listen to. This is who they're friends with. This is who they're not friends with. These are what these words mean. And I'm, I'm wrestling with what I understood the church to be, who I understood Jesus to be, and what I'm now realizing in my 20s, I'm realizing what everyone else thinks church is.
And so I think it got very complicated to me and I wrestled for years about was there anything I was maybe right about, what were the things I was wrong about?
And I've been on a journey of trying to uncomplicate my faith by preserving what was true and innocent and Jesus that I was raised in.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: And also realizing certainly ways I can grow in my knowledge and understanding. But how can I do that without over complicating my faith? So as an adult, I think I started over complicating it.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah, man. And I, I see that like, and I just think about the innocence of kids. Right. I mean I grew up in the church inside. In an inside church.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: In an inside church, an organized church. That's organized church.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: But I still understand that transition, right. Of like, no, this is what we grew up with versus you start to explore your adult faith or a more grown up faith. And there are so many tensions and like you said, things that we need to let go of and then things we want to hold on to and things that are very messy because sometimes it, that it's that wrestling, right. Of trying to figure out like what do we keep and what is right and what is wrong and what actually doesn't matter. I think that's one of the ways too, and I would love to know your thoughts on this, that Christians complicate Christianity is like we focus on maybe the things or an argue about maybe the things that yes, are important but maybe aren't like the end all be all importance, right?
[00:16:22] Speaker B: No, no way.
What happens? I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, I think back then I would have, so I started having a really hard heart towards the church because of some of my experiences in my 20s. And I think then I would have said just how mean and unkind and unwelcoming and like wrong some people were.
But now I think I see how some truly thought they were obeying God. Like certainly some were mean and unkind and I hope they repent and that they find Jesus for real. But many, but many people were taught Jesus through a lens of shame.
Someone taught them Jesus through a lens of shame. And so now as they're relaying Jesus to me through a lens of shame, they don't have a, a, they don't have negative intentions, they don't have, you know, mean intentions. They think they're obeying God. Like to them this is obedience. And so God, when God, when I allowed God to heal me from some of the hurt I had from specific people within certain Christ following environments. I started to see it through a different lens, like, wow, some of these people aren't as free as I am. Yeah, some of these people have picked certain parts of the gospel but left out other parts of the gospel. Like some of them, they, they didn't heal, they didn't know.
So now I see it as like some people don't know better and as some are aggressive or unkind or like sometimes like the fight, I realized some of them didn't know better. So I've, I've learned to have grace and compassion and trying to help them heal while also trying to be aware of all the people who don't know God that are seeing that example.
Truly they are my main concern.
People who don't know God yet. So trying to hold both a little bit of like trying to help Jesus followers know Jesus.
Yeah. And so we can help people who don't follow Jesus know Jesus.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that's truly, that's truly how I feel. And I, and I find that more times than not people have the right intentions.
So what can we unlearn that we learned wrong? What just needs to be course corrected? What do we need to repent of? Here's what I think.
I think that one reason why so many people outside the church are far from God is because so many people inside the church are far from God.
And we need to have a real relationship with Jesus ourselves. We need to repent of our sins. We need to unlearn some of the things that we learned wrong. We need to surrender our pride, our ego, our agendas at the feet of Jesus, repent from our sins and follow Jesus for real. Know him and love him for real. And then we'll be able to accurately show his love to a world that's watching. We'll be able to show what the love of Jesus is actually like.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: But first it must be real for us.
And I see that with myself like too. I need to repent of the ways that I've gotten it wrong, the things that I've said that have pushed people away. So this is first inward God, search me and know my heart, and then God as a capital C church that I'm a part of.
Search us. Yeah, show us so that we can help other people know you and give
[00:20:00] Speaker A: us the humility to be able to do that. Like you said, it has to start within us as people, but then also, yes, as a movement we have to be Humble enough to say, where are we getting it wrong? And. And I love that you mentioned this. Like, what are we actually putting out there for people that are watching, for the people that don't know Jesus or that have left and are considering whether or not they're going to come back? Like, Right. What is our witness actually saying?
[00:20:26] Speaker B: Right.
You know, that's crazy, because the Bible doesn't. Doesn't talk about that at all.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Yes. That.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: That is my great concern. Like, my great concern. When I see Christ followers debating online, I've actually seen good examples of, like, disagreeing in a loving, kind way. Yeah. And when I see it, I think, oh, it's possible, you know, and we need to call out sin when there's sin, and we need to, you know, stand up for what is right. All of that is true. And the way that we sometimes stand up for what we think is right, or the ways that we sometimes speak the truth on social media, it's not often helping showing a watching world what the love of Jesus is like. And I'm concerned, I'm concerned for my friends that some of the.
The only examples of Christ followers they have in their lives are me and my husband and all the comments they see on Instagram.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: So I'm concerned, right, with this.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah, justifiably. I mean, it reminds me, like, right off the bat, I want to say it was like the third page of your book or something. You talked about having that thought of, like, what if some people are faking their relationship with God?
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: And I sat with that Hosanna because I was like, okay. Because on one hand, right, on one hand, it's none of my business. And I'm like, you and God, hash it out and figure it out and do what y' all need to do. But at the same time, like we were just saying, it is so frustrating to try to show the world who Jesus really is and what it looks like to follow him with other people that I really don't want to be associated with. So I guess my question to you is, like, what do we do with those people who may be just putting on, like, a spiritual show, but are not actually doing a good witness?
[00:22:16] Speaker B: Well, that's a good question. That's the right question. The answer is not to say, well, I'm not a Christian because of what Christians look like or sound like. Well, I'm not a Christ follower like they are. I'm not the church because of what I think the church has projected. Like, one of the worst things we can do is Try to label ourselves differently from the bride of Christ because one of the best things we can do, like, I feel this with my. My hairdresser who is also struggling with maybe possibly coming back to the church. I'm going through this with one of my best friends who's struggling with the church as she sees it online and what she knew it to be. I'm struggling with this with so many personal people in my life. And one of the best things I can do is be the church by saying, like, I'm a Jesus follower. I know Jesus for real. And this is what I'm like. Yeah, I. This is what my church is like. Here's what these people are like. And I find this in. In so many religions because of the fullness of our lives. We have so many friends of different religions and family members of different religions. Like, there are poor examples of all of them and good examples of many of them is what I would say for my personal example.
So I would say the answer is not to just tear down other Christ followers to your not Christ following friends and say, well, I'm not a Christian. I'm going to call myself something else.
We have to change what they think of when they hear that word. We have to change the definition of the word. So I own it.
And that's hard to do.
Like, that's hard to do. And I'm saying my hairdresser because the last time I got a haircut, I was like tearing up as he was saying things to me. And just.
It's not.
I'm not just this. It feels really personal. Like Jesus is personal to me. My friends knowing Jesus is personal to me. And when my brothers and sisters in Christ are not representing the love of Jesus as well as we could it. It's painful. It's painful. Like, I grieve this. I'm not just mad. I'm. I'm sad about it. And I'm nervous that less people are going to come to know Jesus, the less humble that Christ followers are.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: And so the answer is for it to be real for us.
The qu. The answer is not to just wonder if it's real for everyone all the time or critiquing who it's real for, not real for all the time, or becoming obsessed over who loves God for real and who doesn't all the time. The answer is to look in our own lives and say, is my relationship with God real?
Am I really filled with the Holy Spirit? Right. Are my actions showing fruit and actions that prove I have the Holy Spirit, would the people in my life say that my demeanor is different than other people who don't have the Holy Spirit?
Do I noticeably have more love and joy and peace and patience and self control and perseverance and gentleness? Do I have more of this, clearly, than other people that don't have the Holy Spirit? Am I being that example?
I don't want to spend my life just being really good at critiquing other people and noting how other people aren't doing it right. I want to be good at coming to God with the real me.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: And saying God, like, what in my life needs to. What do I need to repent of so that I can be a good example of what your love is really like. I'm also not perfect at it.
So that. That's the answer. Not spending my life pointing fingers, but spending more time making sure that I'm representing Christ? Well, yeah, that's. What do you think? I mean, what would you say? There's other. What would you add on to that?
[00:25:57] Speaker A: I mean, exactly. That's exactly right. I think we have to start with ourselves because it's always the question. And for me, I'm on social media. I feel like that was one of the places that God was like, hey, I want you to pastor people is on Instagram. And I was like, wow, God. What?
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: And so I. Hosanna. I'm constantly wrestling with this tension of, like, am I posting for, you know, the hits? Am I posting for. Because out of my own emotion and so many years ago, God. And he was like, hey, here's the deal. You're going to write something and then you're going to sit with it and you're never going to react because I constantly. And I'm not saying I've never. I'm not saying I've never done it. I've had posts go up that I had to take down.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: I've had posts that, like, I didn't sit with long enough where what I said ended up being interpreted differently than I meant it. And at that point, like, intention doesn't matter. It's out there. People have read it.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: You know what I mean? Right.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: But it is. I think it's. It's. It's constantly going back to, again, performative. Is this like a performative practice?
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Or is this healthy spirituality where I am continuing to be transformed in real time?
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: And looking more and more like Jesus in real time? And if I'm not looking like Jesus and if I am not.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: You know, growing the Fruits that I want to be critical of other people about.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Then I need to not worry about them at all. Like, I need to start with me.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: I appreciate you saying like a calling to social media. I think that's something really awesome to hear. I think I feel for myself, like seasonal. Yeah, seasonal callings. Right. And there have been times in my life where I have felt like God has said, like, to enter this space to be an example of what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus in this space. Because I don't think the answer is have no Christ followers in this space. People are searching for answers and if we don't tell them the truth, the world will tell them its own version of truth. So I don't think the answer is that. And also, as we know, the answer is not for Christ followers to live enslaved to what the world's ever changing algorithms are. But I don't.
So I believe God calls some people onto it and off of it, and I think he calls many of us in different seasons. But that's really important. And I would say that in my life, like, whether that's year by year or book by book or project by project, whatever, there have been times when I have felt called to be off of it more and times when I've been called to be on it more. And I'll just say, like, in my own church community, it has been more important than ever that the young woman at my church see what it's like to be an entire person in 2026 who is using the tools that the world has provided for the glory of God. To have social media with boundaries to post, but purposefully. And so I think that's really important because I think for some people, they might hear like, oh, is social media good or bad? Should I be on it or off of it? Should I be obsessed with it or completely get rid of it? And it's like, is there something besides being obsessed with it or being off of it? I have felt many times in my life, right? And. And we're the first generation, like, you can't find a book from 60 years ago that's about how to be a Jesus follower with social media. So unless there are people who actually spend real time with God for real, in private, that have the calling to let that overflow publicly in, in public, online, to show people how to be people in 2026 with social media, with notifications, with Netflix, unless we have that, then the younger generation or just greener, newer to is going to try to figure it out. Themselves without the knowledge and the wisdom and the arrows from the word of God. So I applaud people who feel called to the social media space to be evangelistic in the best way we know how in this. And that will take some fumbling since there are no experts from 60 years ago to tell us what to do. But praise God and even outside of social media, praise God for people who will live in the tension.
The tension of.
There are some things that God has called me to say, but not yet. Yeah, like, there are things that God has called me to do, but not yet. There are things that I mourn and things that I grieve, but maybe this space isn't the space to speak up about it, because it's more important that I say in this space, whatever. Yeah, we don't want to be distracted fighting lesser battles and then miss the greater battles God has called us to fight.
So it's very important that we're led by the Holy Spirit about what battles God is calling us to fight and when he's calling us to fight them and the way he's calling us to fight them. The Jesus, Holy Spirit filled way.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's honestly how this podcast even started is because we noticed in our church, we were like, there are conversations that we want to have and things that we want to talk about, but getting up behind the pulpit on a Sunday morning and monologuing about it is not helpful sometimes for specific things. You know, like, it's good, here's information, but it's right hard to bring in other perspectives and nuance and all of that. And so, yeah, this is. This is how we're fighting certain battles. I hope, you know, it's through conversations that I get to have here with other people that my audience or, you know, our listeners wouldn't necessarily maybe get to hear from otherwise.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I love that God uses it all. You know, it turns out I can't.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: I can't believe.
Turns out. Well, you mentioned. Or you. You tipped on this a little bit at the beginning, but in your book, you talked about you comparing your faith to your own in the past. I think a lot of times people go, okay, well, I'm going to compare my faith to some. To someone else's. Right? Yeah, they look at somebody else that's like the ideal Christian or leader or whatever.
But talk to us about comparing your faith to a previous Hosanna's faith.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Right.
Some of us compare our relationship with God to other people's relationships with God, people we see on TikTok or on Instagram, or maybe our pastor's faith, our grandma's faith. But some of us don't struggle with comparing our lives to other people's lives. Some of us struggle with comparing our relationship with God to a past version of our time with God. Like, we see our time from before as maybe being the most ideal. Back then, when I had that job, that role, lived in that city, had those friends when the kids were that age. You know what I mean? Like, we idealized this other time in life when our relationship with God was easier. And maybe we felt like that was the best time, that was the right time. And then now we struggle with this new role, this new schedule, a different level of fullness, new responsibilities. Hey. New things God has called you to do.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: And sometimes we feel all this guilt and shame because we think that our relationship with God doesn't look the way it's supposed to when it simply doesn't look the way that it used to.
But God wanted to have a real relationship with you then, and he wants to have a real relationship with you now. And I think the enemy of your soul hopes that you spend all your time comparing who you are to who you used to be or idealizing who you hope to one day be, as if there's a very specific kind of person you have to be before you can encounter God. You have to have a very certain kind of schedule margin on the iCal to a certain level. You have to get your whole life all together. The house projects have to be done. These goals have to be done. The lunches have to be packed before you can truly connect with God. And that is a lie from the enemy. Your God life and your real life are not two separate lives. You are not a cat. You do not have multiple lives. Your God life is your real life. It is here in the house projects and in the busyness and the full iCal that God wants to have a real relationship with you.
Otherwise, everything else is just faking it, putting on some kind of spiritual show, trying to curate some kind of life that we think is now the most presentable for God. That might be cute for social media. That is not what God has asked for.
So how. How can you invite God into the middle of your real life right now? Because he has something new for you right here.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Is that where. And I feel like that's kind of, you know, where the. The book came from. Is that how you found these different shortcuts that you proposed of, like, trying to help people find new Ways to see God where maybe they hadn't before.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Right? So I figured I want to help everyone uncomplicate their faith the way I have.
I've been able to uncomplicate my faith. And I have a life where not every week is created equal, not every month is created equal. It's constantly evolving. I've realized many people have that.
But I can't write a book about uncomplicating your faith and just talk about how I've done it, because that's the exact opposite of the message.
So I interviewed 1,000 people around the world to ask them these two questions. One, what has stood in the way of you connecting with God?
And two, what is a unique way you have found to connect with God? And through that, I discovered, yes, lots of roadblocks that we hit when trying to connect with God, but also shortcuts, ways we've been uniquely designed and wired and set up for success to encounter God. But we have chosen instead to take this long, windy road to God, which is us trying to do it on our own, do it the way we think we have to do it, do it how someone else is doing it, trying to strive for some ungodly version of perfection that doesn't come from God. But the shortcut is the unique way you've been created, the wonderful way you've been made, and the unique season that you're actually in. God's actually set you up for success. It turns out God did not call you to all of these things and then say, but all of that is going to make it really hard to connect with me. No, God wants you to obey him and connect with Him. He built you for relationship. So actually, in everything he's called you to and every way he's wired you, you've been set up for success. God did not set you up for failure.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: And it changes. Like you said, I love that you added the season to it. That's not just how you're wired and who got it, but it's also because that does free us from past versions of ourselves, future versions of ourselves.
Was there, was there one shortcut in particular? Maybe that as you were like researching or they kind of bubbled up to the surface, that surprised you that you were like, oh, huh. Maybe you hadn't considered that one as much before. Yeah.
[00:36:37] Speaker B: So my six are. Let me think. There's two that I'm thinking of. What's the shortest, most concise. How much time do we have?
[00:36:45] Speaker A: I can pull them up here too.
[00:36:47] Speaker B: So one of them would be your worship personality, what I've decided to call your praise onality.
As I was talking to people, they had all these certain ways they were bent wired to worship God that often was different than their spouses or their kids or their friends I was interviewing them with. And I realized that God had wired us differently. And as they would say, these different ways they connected with God. Oh, on a hike, oh, in a cathedral, oh, at a museum. Oh, while serving at the soup kitchen.
I thought, I wonder if any of this is biblical. Like, is there any biblical, you know, like, is this, you're like, this is
[00:37:28] Speaker A: good, but is this good or is it real?
[00:37:31] Speaker B: Right? Is this just like, oh, like is this just like another personality test where like, you're this one thing and you have to fit in this one box or else? Or is this more than that? And so I dug into the word of God and found what I thought was seven certain worship styles I discovered in my interviews. I found all seven of these worship styles all throughout scripture. And certainly there's, there's many more throughout the Bible. And there's even authors who now I've discovered have written about so many more, like, so many more worship styles. But just through my conversations and interviews, like through my own research, I discovered seven. And in those seven, I found them in the Old Testament and New Testament. And then I discovered Jesus demonstrating all seven of the worship styles. And then I was like, okay, there's something to this. And I wanted to expose it because so many people would say how they encountered God. And like, truly, I had so many conversations and so many people said, I don't know if this counts or I know this doesn't count, or I know this is kind of weird, or I promise you, I promise you, I know this sounds different, but. And it was almost as if even though they felt found something that helped them connect with God, there was still some shame attached because it wasn't like their dad did or their pastor did or what they think I do. And I just wanted, if there was any battle to fight in this book, it would be that you would be set free from guilt and shame that Jesus already came to set you free from. How do you connect with God? So there's seven, seven praise anality types. I can share them quickly and you can tell me if you resonate with one or two or three. Okay, this is not like a personality test where you are one thing. You have to fit in a box. It's not meant to box you in, it's meant to set you Free. Hopefully throughout your life, you'll worship God all seven of these ways. And I think they might evolve in seasons. But if you feel stuck in your faith, how can you connect with him? This week I would consider the way you're naturally wired. So, one is the recreationalist.
This might be you if you engage with God best through the outdoors or through nature or through movement. Perhaps on a hike, at the beach or at the gym.
Number two is the beholder of beauty. This might be you if you encounter God best through a photo or a flower, a portrait, going to the museum. Perhaps created things literally make you feel closer to your creator. The third is the soul fire. This might be you if you engage with God best through outward expressions of worship, perhaps raising your hands or a dance party to worship music in your kitchen. Perhaps you love loud and lively environments. It's important to note not everyone is a soul fire. So some people might see soul fires, like at church or at an event, and you might think, oh, that looks like a bit much, or that looks a bit performative or fake. And if you're not a soul fire, you worshiping God that way might be fake for you, but for a soul fire, holding it in might be the most fake thing they can do. So if you're a soul fire, you to always honor the environment you're in. You never want to be distracting. And also you must find times to play that worship music loud in your car or in your kitchen. Have that dance party to the glory of God.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: Number four is the sacred space seeker. This might be you if you engage with God best through tradition, through rituals, through going to cathedrals or sacred spaces, through practicing Lent, through practicing communion. We never want to worship spiritual practices more than we worship God. We never want to misunderstand traditions as ways to be saved. You're not saved through traditions. You're saved through God's grace when you put your faith in Jesus. But for some of us, structure has been a really helpful way to feel connected to God. So it's important that we never feel bad about that. As long as you can practice these spiritual practices without legalism.
Yeah. And without pressure. But you can do it in the freedom that comes from Jesus.
If worshiping God through structure is you, you might be a sacred space seeker. Number five is the interior expert. This might be you if you're. If you have a natural bent towards silence and solitude, if you're naturally introspective, if alone time comes very natural to you. Your sacred space is anytime you're alone with God, you love inside jokes with God. You might have a bent towards nostalgia. Putting on certain music might really vividly bring you back to certain times of life and remind you of God's faithfulness.
Six is the thoughtsmith. This doesn't mean you're the smartest person in the room or you're the most educated. This just means that you engage with God best when you engage with your mind. Perhaps you're reading a passage of scripture that you've read before, but then you see something in it you've never seen before, and it's like. Like a light bulb goes off in your mind, Fires ignited in your bones. It is like an inner revival you're having.
Your sacred space might be the steady space. Like geeking out is like a spiritual practice to you.
And then the final one, number seven is the artist of people.
This might be you. If you encounter God best through other people, you might have a natural bent towards service, serving people. I met a lot of people that said when I set up tear down at my church. Church, I truly feel closer to God.
Or a natural bent towards hospitality. You love planning the dinner parties.
Maybe photos are not your canvas, portraits are not your canvas. But maybe people are your canvas. So it's important to know we never want to worship the way we worship more than we worship God. Like, you never want to say, well, I'm a thoughtsmith and that's why I don't ever serve at my church.
No, my hope is that we never worship a certain way, worship style or worship building.
You know, like, oh, I only like to worship God in these kind of churches when the set list is like this or the vibes are like this. Like, man, that is so ungodly. That is so Antichrist. We need to repent anytime we have thought that. My hope is that your faith is so real that you can worship God in a Catholic church, in a charismatic church, at a soup kitchen, on your couch, on a hike to the glory of God. We never want to worship a worship style more than we worship God.
And also, if you feel stuck, I want you to consider the way you're naturally wired and not try to experience God the way someone else has, but truly encounter him in your unique way. Okay, out of those seven, do any of those stand out to you?
[00:44:02] Speaker A: I have two. Can I have two?
[00:44:03] Speaker B: Yes. I think I have three. So two for sure. My husband has two. Yeah.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: And I will say I love the distinction here, because when you went to the last one and talked about people, I was like, oh, I have a third. One. But I actually think I don't, because I. I do love people, and I love hosting and hospitality and all of these things, and it, like, fills my heart up and whatever, but it doesn't make me feel closer to God. And I think that's the difference here. Right?
[00:44:25] Speaker B: That is. That is a distinction because I've had people say, like, I. I'm a worship leader, and that's. And I love that I'm a. You know, but I don't think I'm a soul fire.
This was a worship leader that I met. He was a worship leader. He's a touring artist in Latin America as well. And he said, you think I would be a soul fire? Because that's what I do all the time, he said. But actually I listen to the Bible and audiobook and pray silent prayers while I'm at the gy.
I actually connect with God best. Yeah. In nature and through movement. So I think there's things you can love to do and do out of obedience that are still positive. Like, yes, hopefully everyone here serves people, loves people, reads your Bible, spend quiet time. But is there something that uniquely connects you to God? Connects you to God. Okay, so.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: So I have two. So I think I am a thoughtsmith, because when I'm, like, prepping for, you know, writing a sermon, my. But whatever. Anytime that I open my Bible and feel like Holy Spirit is like, hey, do you want to know something that you've never thought of before? I am like. I'm like, I'm God's favorite person right now. Because I just got this revelation. Like, I love it so much, and it just makes me go, okay, there's no way this has come out of my brain because it never has before in 43 years. So this must be the Holy Spirit, you know? So I love that. And then I am definitely a soul fire, which I know to be true because that's how I worship at church. But I will not move my body anywhere else. Like, you want me to dance?
Absolutely not. Mortified, super insecure, can't do it. But, like, when I'm worshiping with the worship music, like, I just. Everything else goes away, and it's like me and God, and I cannot. I couldn't physically stand still if you, like, paid me a million dollars.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: So, like, I think I'm those two things.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: That's amazing.
I love that I. I'm the interior expert.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: I have a natural bent towards silence and solitude. So whether I followed Jesus or not, I love alone time.
And that was important for me.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: To learn.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Because when I led my baby brother Elijah to Jesus, I assumed that because this is what my time with God looked like so naturally that for it to be real for him, it had to look like that immediately. As soon as he gave his life to God. Two hours in the morning, like, go be alone now.
[00:46:38] Speaker A: Go be higher.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: I know. And I had to repent. My brother has a different learning style. Yeah, my brother has a different life altogether. And so I had a really.
The praise analities has helped me not only connect with God as who I really am, but also help other people connect with God as who they really are. Like, it's helped me share God's love with people.
And so. And my other one would be thoughtsmith too. Just like you. Like, I can read this when I read the same passage over and over or I've already preached on this. I already. So I wrote a book. Book. The book before uncomplicated was called you are more than you've been told. And I talked about trellises and structure and spiritual disciplines that we need to know our identity in Christ. It was an identity in Christ spiritual practices book.
And then it was all about in John 15, all these things I've learned about abiding. And then all these people after that book asked me, okay, I love it, but what if my routines change? Okay, I love it, but now I'm a mom. Okay, I love it, but now I. I move somewhere. Okay, I love it, but how do I change my structure? And I was like, oh my gosh. And here I am. I have two more books to write for my publisher. I have all these ideas of what I'm going to do. And yet it was like that book needed a follow up of, oh, by the way, your structure doesn't have to look like mine. Oh, by the way, there's more about abiding. So I like went into the hills of Tuscany to learn more about how to nurture vineyards. I started interviewing all of these wine specialists and vineyard growers all over the world to try to. And then a thousand people because I wrote a book that was true about identity and spiritual rhythms to have that follow Jesus so we can also know who we are and how to live.
And even the COVID of it has a straight trellis. A straight trellis that is flourishing but uncomplicated, needed to come after to say, by the way, your season for your vineyard might change and the soil you're from will be different than someone else's soil. And also your personality, your taste, your family will evolve so the COVID of Uncomplicated also has a straight line down the middle. But it's colorful and there's all these like different kinds of structures around it.
It's like one really colorful, not rigid structure, but a really colorful personalized structure in the middle of many other roots, roadblocks and structures.
And that is my thoughtsmith at play of like, there's more in abiding this one passage of Scripture.
And so I think I. I've seen my thoughtsmith at play there.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: I love that you said too, like, it wasn't wrong. That's what's so cool to me about faith and like being in relationship with Jesus is, you can write a book and it's good and it's true and it's right and it's right for some people in whatever season.
And then you can write something else. And it doesn't negate anything you said. It's just, guess what? There's more. And there's always more. There's always more.
There's always more.
[00:49:42] Speaker B: Like, you should read the Bible. There's more because there's more for you in the season you're in too. Like, I think one of the most shocking things about Uncomplicated was how much it hit moms, which was favor from the Lord because I'm not a mom.
And because it was a book about your evolving seasons.
God doesn't just have grace for you like, oh, it's okay that you are a mom. No, it's, it's. I called you to be a mom. You are a mom. This is how you're gonna follow me and obey me in this purpose that not everyone has that you have.
I was shocked that that's what happened with Uncomplicated, how many women it reached. Because my books are for both. They become church series at churches and different pastors preach. But this book I saw really hit women because of the evolving nature of our lives and callings and certain men too, that also have evolving seasons more than most. So for me, that's a perfect example. I stand behind everything in the red book. It was called you are more than you've been told. It is still my most well known book. And yet there were people that were like, I love that that worked for you.
But I have this different learning style.
[00:50:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: I have a different dynamic. And it was like, oh, yeah, there's more. And so that's why with the same passage and the same principles, I interviewed a thousand people. I did more research, and there was more to abiding than that I had previously known about for the red book that's now in the colorful noodle book, as we call it.
[00:51:11] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:51:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: Well, your subtitle is permission to enjoy God in your unique way. And so I want to know.
I really believe there are probably people listening who have never considered enjoying God. They honor God. They respect God. They want to please God. They worship God.
What does it look like to enjoy God? And how would you kind of lead them into figuring out what that looks like for them?
[00:51:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say to anyone who feels that way, I'm really sorry that sometimes we have taught God not as someone to enjoy, not as someone to have fun with, not as someone to engage with.
I'm sorry. And I'm trying to get better in my teaching, in my writing, and in my personal conversations with people to really expose God for the. The God he is who created you to have a relationship with Him, a good one, a fun one, filled with purpose and filled with good things. And anything that stands in the way of your purpose and anything that stands in the way of the good things he wants for you, he has.
He has laws against.
He says, don't do this. Don't do those things that are going to hurt you. Don't do these things that are going to hurt other people. But some of us were only taught a God of rules and laws, and we weren't taught why he has those in place. Because ultimately it's all about having a relationship with him filled with peace and joy and purpose. And so I'm sorry.
And I. I think it's important that we know that God wants to have a relationship with you in your real life and that the scriptures say multiple times that God delights in you. He created you with your quirks. He created you with your unique personality. He loves this about you. Your personality is on a roadblock to Him. It's a shortcut to Him. He wants you to enjoy your life and enjoy him.
And he knows that part of that will be you living in your purpose and not veering away from Him. So I'm sorry for the ways we've taught it wrong. And I want to bring enjoyment back into our lives. I've met many people who have said, I believe that Jesus is alive. I just don't feel like my own soul is alive.
And I want to bring back the enjoyment of a life with God and life with the people he's placed around you to enjoy life and God in the way that he's called you to.
[00:53:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:41] Speaker B: Well.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: And I Think that's a clue for people, too, that maybe they're not leaning into the relationship aspect of it. Like you said, if people feel stuck and they're like, I believe in all of this, but I'm not feeling it, then it is. It's like, hey, let's get out of our heads a little bit. Like, it's good to believe, you know, and have faith in these things. But how can we connect? Find the shortcut, find the. The praise anality, you know, that will help that to, like, come back to life again.
[00:54:05] Speaker B: One of my conversations was with a woman named Joy in Singapore, and she said, you know, a lot of her friends are not Christ followers. And I said, how would you tell your friends how to start connecting with God? Because I'm trying to find out Joy's shortcuts. And she said, I asked them, how would you spend time with your best friend?
And she said, sometimes me and my best friend, we planned walks at the park.
Sometimes we call randomly, Sometimes we sit in silence, and we're both reading and not talking to each other. We're just in each other's presence. Sometimes we're talking for hours at a coffee shop. And she said, so I've learned to enjoy God the way I enjoy a best friend, and I try to introduce God that way to my friends. And I just thought that was really simple and beautiful.
And that's not to say the other extreme, which is like. Like, sin doesn't matter.
[00:54:58] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:54:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And I just want to say, like, it's so you can enjoy God and live out your purpose. Don't fall away from God.
Don't do these things that are going to hurt your enjoyment of your life and enjoyment of God. It's all the same thing.
I just think some of us were taught through a lens of shame that was all about what you cannot do for sure. And instead, if we read the full Bible, it's about a God who created us to have a relationship with him, is constantly trying to make a way for us to be close to him, who wants to enjoy our lives with us and is letting us know what things not to do so you don't miss out on all he has for you.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yes, people read the full Bible. That made me giggle, because I'm like, we just need to say that in every episode.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: So many ways that applies.
[00:55:48] Speaker A: All right, hosanna. Last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church, because you and I, I think, both have a heart for, you know, the big sea church. That's that's, that's basically the goal of this podcast. Like, I want to equip the people that are listening to not just claim the title of being a Christian or have these beliefs, but to actually live it out and to model for the people around them. Like, hey, this is what it's about.
So how would you encourage people that are listening to become the church to the people that are around them?
[00:56:14] Speaker B: Oh, my God, I love this question. And I'm like, lord, give me the right answer for today.
I.
I fully believe it's an amazing time to be a Christ follower. There are so many opportunities to share about Jesus. Opportunities that I believe the Apostle Paul couldn't have dreamed of, that I believe the disciples could never have imagined. And so I often think, like, what would they have done with the resources and tools that I have?
So I want you to know, like, this is amazing time to be a Christ follower. Like, I think all the time I'm more afraid that I'm not using all the tools available to me. I'm more afraid that I'm not thinking as resourcefully as some of the world is about how to get messages out there. Like, that's what I'm thinking about. Like, Lord, what am I not seeing? But I would say to become the church.
I would say to have a really clear arrow from the Holy Spirit about what God is calling you to do right now, because it could be easy for other people to influence or convince you of how you should be spending your time, how you should be using your voice.
And I want us to make sure that the battles that we're fighting are battles that God has called us to fight. And the places and spaces we're in and the things we're speaking on are things we're doing out of conviction. I don't want us to be distracted by lesser battles when there are greater battles that God has called us to fight that can mean anything for you. I'm not saying that you should fight the battles I'm fighting. I'm not going to fight the battles God's called you to fight. I'm saying we have to be truly spending alone time with God and being led by the Holy Spirit, because it might feel like there's so many battles to fight. And if you fight every single battle, you might miss the very specific battle God has called you to fight.
Make sure you are going forward with the conviction of the Holy Spirit. He knows things you don't know. He knows what's coming up next that we don't know about.
Make sure that you can stand before God and say, I did everything you told me to do. That was my arrow. That's my encouragement. That's how you can be the church that Jesus prayed for.
[00:58:34] Speaker A: Amen. Listen, if we all do that, we are going to cover everything because you're called the things that I'm not called to that the next person's not called to. And if we all do what God tells us, we'll cover the gamut. We'll get everybody.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Amen. I don't want to be held responsible for what you do and don't do.
So I'm just like, lord, be my arrow.
[00:58:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to link up your book and a link to the Brave conference if people want to come meet us in October. That would be so fun.
[00:59:04] Speaker B: Yes, I would love that. Thank you. I can't wait to meet you in person in 3D. Yes. Yay.
[00:59:14] Speaker A: There is so much that God has for you uniquely. I hope that you will pick up uncomplicate it to find your own praise anality style. It reminded me of a sacred Path to Pathways class that we had at Mosaic last year. So I'm also linking up another online tool that will help you discover the way that you best connect to God if you're intrigued by the idea of fighting the battle that's before you. Sometimes it's as simple as paying attention to what's bothering you and won't seem to let go. But if you too would like a resource to help you figure it out, you can go to my website kristenmuchleryoung.com to take the Holy Burden's quiz and discover how God has uniquely wired you up to be Jesus in the world around you. As always, thanks for listening and I'd love for you to share this episode with a friend via text or on social media. And be sure to tag me if you do hristenmochleryoung so I can see which episodes are resonating with you. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
