What AI Can’t Replace

[00:00:10] Speaker A: We say we're made in the image of our creator, God, a God who created us to create beautiful things in the world. But now we're living in a time where AI seems to be able to create anything with endless capacity at a much quicker rate than humans can. At what point does it affect our divine creativity? And how is AI influencing our faith, for better or worse? I'm Kristin Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. My guest today is artist Paul Mignard, who is back on the show to give us his thoughts on both faith and AI. Paul, welcome back to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Thanks again for having me back and for letting me speak to your audience. As you know, book promoting is difficult and. And fraught with peril. So I appreciate your time and bringing me on and. And letting me talk about things. And it's great to see you again, man. It's a bit. A little break from social media. And I came back and I'm like, wow, Kristen's talking to, like, all the guys from the Chosen, and everything's blown up. So. So congratulations to you. I know you work really hard at all this stuff. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Thank you. It's been super fun. Well, and I even think, like, when you and I connected, because it's been a couple years since you were on this show. I think both of us had smaller followings, smaller accounts then. And so I remember just reaching out to people that I was like, who feels a little bit in my realm or, like, just above enough that they would be willing to come on this show that's just starting, you know, and it's really, like, unknown. And so we're both. We're doing it. Look at us. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Look at us. This is amazing. [00:01:53] Speaker A: We're doing it. Well, you, Paul, most people know you you as sketchy sermons, and so they probably wouldn't even recognize your face, but they would definitely recognize your cartoons, your illustrations. So talk to us about how did you begin that work of, like, sketching out Bible stories? [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so it started out innocently enough at church. I find I've always kind of been a drawer or a doodler of sorts. And I found myself at church constantly drifting. You'd be listening to the sermon. Even if I was taking notes, if I was trying to follow along, I was always thinking about if I was going to have Chipotle or Blaze for lunch or some other dumb thing. So I started actually drawing my notes, and I found that was the one thing that would kind of keep me locked in to the sermon and what was going on. I started posting those on Instagram, and I did that for a while. And some people seem to really enjoy it, but I found my stride when somebody was like, the notes and all this stuff that you're doing is too complicated. Can you just give me a quote? Can you give me one thing? And so I started drawing people with one quote. I used to call it interesting people who say interesting things, because it's not just Christians. It's sometimes it's comic books and classic literature and pop culture or whatever else. So that's how it started. And then eventually I got into illustrating books, and that's kind of where I'm at right now. [00:03:16] Speaker A: That's so cool. And so you're. You've illustrated multiple books, right? Like, did I see that you did a children's book on a runner? [00:03:23] Speaker B: I did. I did. For Harvest House, I did a book on Eric Liddell. Tim Challies was the author and I was the illustrator. Coincidentally, I did that one. And the Bible we're going to talk about at the same time, there was. They were layered on top of each other for a little bit there, which, I mean, as you know, working on a book, do not recommend. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Like, what, did you do it once? [00:03:46] Speaker B: One at a time. And I. I should have seen it. You know, when you have all this stuff and you're like, you have all these balls, and it's like, there's going to be one moment where these all come together at the same time. And they did, and it was really stressful, but it all worked out. So praise be to God for all of it. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Good, good. Well, I want to jump back to you doodling in church. I am always super impressed with people because I've seen. I mean, yours obviously, are my favorite. They're the best. But I. Other people have these, like, you know, specific Bibles with these huge margins, and I'll see them do these really beautiful notes, and it seems like everything fits perfectly on the page and it's all organized. Whatever. I'm like, I feel like that would take me hours to do. How do you do it in, like, 20 to 30 minutes and make it look so good? [00:04:33] Speaker B: They. I. I didn't realize this beforehand, but there's a whole group of people that do this stuff. You know, the sketch effect is a big one, but there are these, like, visual facilitators, illustrators that will go in and Listen to a speech or while the speech is going on or seminar or something like that, actually draw out a whole, like, mind map illustrations. I didn't realize going into it that. That there was a whole another art form to that. This whole sketch notes thing. I'm kind of in the middle of it. Right. You have people like Mike Roy, who wrote the sketchnote. Sketchnote Workbook Handbook, one of those. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:10] Speaker B: And it was the whole idea of how do we use illustration and art together to further the idea? So, yeah, so there's. There's. There's a whole nother. Besides just being able to draw, like, arms and legs and eyes and all that stuff, there's a whole nother discipline to being able to map all that stuff out. So honestly, the. The biggest thing I've found is just being able to live with mistakes because there's a lot of times where you're drawing that stuff and you're like, I'm four points in. And then it turns out, like, oh, he has seven points. And I've taken up the whole page. So it's, you know, you kind of roll with it. But yeah, it's a lot of practice. You know, you do it. There was one year where I did every sermon for the entire year. So that was 50 of them. So, I mean, after you get a few hundred under your belt, like anything, you start kind of figuring it out what works. But, you know, thankfully, people aren't super critical of your artwork, especially in this context. You know, if I'm drawing someone's sermon, they're not like, oh, my gosh, the spacing on this is terrible. You know, so, thankfully, there's a lot of grace coming at me. [00:06:13] Speaker A: Okay, good. Yeah. I would think in my own self, I am too perfectionistic. Like, I would want it to look a certain way. And then when it didn't, I think I would just stop halfway through or like, I'd be three points behind and then not be able to keep up. So I definitely think there's an art and a talent and art. A talent to your art. [00:06:33] Speaker B: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's like any other artists artistic endeavor. You know, there's plenty of people who bought a guitar and played three notes, are like, I'm terrible, and then never pick it up again. And I think, you know, it's just being able to stick through it for the most part. [00:06:49] Speaker A: Well, after your account kind of took off. Right. And people really started to, like, latch onto these quotes that you were illustrating or whatever. Correct me if I'm Wrong. But I think people then started sending you, like, their books and their sermons and things that they wanted you to, like, highlight or illustrate, right? [00:07:05] Speaker B: Correct. Yes. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Anybody ever send you something and you were like, yeah, I'm not going to be doing that one. Thank you so much. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's funny, there have been some awkward ones where somebody like, I've got a buddy up in Chicago. He's like, hey, this is really cool what you do. Would you ever illustrate, you know, a sermon in my church? And I was like, oh, yeah. And it was like a sermon on hell. You know, it was like, wow, okay. This isn't my usual content, but. But we're going for it, so. No. Thankfully, most of the stuff that I'm sent, and I'm very fortunate. You know, the. The biggest problem I ran into is just not being able to accommodate all of the stuff that I was getting sent when I was super active. I mean, it's coming at you left and right. So, yeah, the one I always refer to is the. The. The sexy bunny. I had somebody like, hey, I'd like you to do this thing for me. Like, okay, what. What you got in mind? Like, I would like you to draw this, like, sexy bunny. And it was like, wow, this is totally. Have you seen my account? This is not in my wheelhouse. This is not something I'm equipped for or that would ever want to do, you know? And that's. That's one of the reasons I've always kept this as a side job, because I. I never want to be in that position where it's like, I don't want to do this, but, man, I could really use a few hundred dollars right now, thankfully, because it's always side work. Whenever I run into stuff like that that I just don't want to do or illustrate, I'm able to just kind of like, nope, I'm not going to do that. But thank you for. Thank you for asking. You don't. [00:08:36] Speaker A: There's sexy money tattoos for people just because you need the money, right? [00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And in a real sense, I do get asked sometimes for certain pastors or whatnot. You know, I used to have this saying. I was like, no, MacArthur, Nofertick. And it was kind of because I didn't want to do the edges of the space, but I'll get those sometimes. Like, oh, can you do one of Doug Wilson or whatnot? And I'm like, that's not. You know, he's not my thing. You know, that's not an area that I'm in or support. So it's, you know, it gets. It gets a little awkward sometimes. I feel like my audience can be kind of big. And I don't mean big like, oh, my gosh, it's so huge. But the, the influence or the. It's wide. Yeah, there we go. It's just. There's a lot on the spectrum there. [00:09:23] Speaker A: But listen, I also very much appreciate that you're like, I have a wide spectrum. I'll do a lot of people, but there are people that I just don't agree with. I don't want a platform. I mean, even. It's. It's a little. It's different, but kind of the same. Where for a while, maybe even last year, I felt like on this show particularly, I was almost like running into one narrow lane and I caught myself. I was like, okay, I. I agree with all these people I'm having on, but I noticed, okay, I need to do a little bit better job of like, intentionally also showing the other perspective. And I actually reached out to. I won't say the name, but I reached out to one agent that I've worked with in the past for a author that had a book coming out that was very much on the opposite of what I had been doing. And after a couple days, I actually had to go back to her and I said, I am so sorry, I've never done this before, but I actually am going to retract my invitation because there is a difference between wanting to put up different perspectives versus platforming things that are. I don't agree with or people whose voices have maybe would do harm or damage to, like, my other guests that I've had on that, trust me. And it was a really hard thing to do. And I wasn't sure how she was going to take it. And I didn't know if I was going to mess up the relationship, you know, with this agent and getting other guests on recently. And she responded and she just kind of laughed. She was like, completely understand. I was actually really surprised when you asked for her. She's like, so, no worries. Like, it's all good, but it is. It's that tension. Right. I wanna. I wanna have a broad, like, perspectives without platforming people that I think don't need to be platformed more. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's admirable. And honestly, in this, in the social media climate right now, I feel like there's a lot of push where you want to, like, oh, if I expose my audience, which is this way, to something that's a little more Sensational or off the rip. Like, it'll increase the views, and then I'll get more pushback or I'll get more engagement and whatnot. So. So kudos to you for seeing that and saying your values or what you. What you want to promote is. Is more important than that extra bit of. Of juice that you would get from that. Yeah, I. I run into that because it's like, when you're kind of in the middle, like, it's such a terrible place to be because it's like everybody kind of hates that you're not one side or the other and that you're not. That you're not, like, pushed out to the. The edges. Yeah, but it's so much more interesting to be able to, like, hear people and understand things and kind of turn down the temperature a little bit, and especially in an environment where, you know, the temperatures just cranked up to 11 constantly. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Well. And I honestly think it's where we're supposed to be. Like, if we take it back to Jesus, Paul, like, that's where he was. He was in the middle. He was with both sides. He was never platforming, like, you know, the Romans and whatever. But. Yeah. Anyways, that's a whole nother conversation, right? [00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that. That's what I always. I mean, that's such a great point because I'm always like, you know, you don't see in the Bible very often where Jesus is like, oh, yeah, that's a Good point. You're 100% right. It's usually like, whatever you were thinking is totally wrong. [00:12:52] Speaker A: He's gonna turn it just a little bit, where even if he thinks you're right, he's gonna be like, great. But also, have you considered this? [00:12:59] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Yep. A hundred percent. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Well, let's go back to all of the things that you've illustrated. Do you have a favorite story or quote or sermon or anything that. That you illustrated? And you're like, oh, this is my, like, favorite one. [00:13:12] Speaker B: You know, that one's a hard one. I always like the one that I did for Arnaldo Santiago Jr. Years ago. Years ago. I don't know why that one. It was about Moses, and I was always like, man, this is kind of like the. This is the coolest one. It's hard because it keeps changing. You know, I keep. It's like every day people are saying something super interesting or super thoughtful or super edifying, and it's, you know, my. My capacity to draw them is way outpac by the amount that I. That I run into. So it's kind of hard to say, like, this is. This is my favorite because it's constantly changing. At any given point in time, it's like, oh, this is my favorite until I draw my next favorite. So it's most of the time, like, the latest one is my favorite until I look at it the next day and I'm like, oh, man, there's so many things I could have fixed on that. [00:14:03] Speaker A: Actually, I hate it now. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Right, exactly. [00:14:07] Speaker A: How long does it take? If you're just going to do, like, you know, your Instagram squares, like a quote or something, how long does it take you roughly, to, like, draw it and get it out? [00:14:14] Speaker B: It's a couple hours. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:15] Speaker B: Honestly, to get it out, I try to. I try to write a thoughtful caption, you know, to go along with it. That takes time. Drawing the picture takes time. Some are easier. You know, honestly, if it's a guy without a lot of hair, that comes together real quickly, if there's a lot of hair or a beard. The hardest ones are, ironically, guys with, like, very light facial hair, because it's like, you want to draw a beard, but getting it right always doesn't look right. It looks like it's part of their face. And because everything I do is monochromatic, it just. Yeah, it takes forever, so. And beards are in right now, so fantastic. [00:14:53] Speaker A: All right, Paul, start drawing some women. Maybe that'll make it easier for you. Just get those women in for a while. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So. And that. That's always a hard one, too, because I want to. It's like, I want to make sure I. I get the likeness down, but it's always. Yeah, there's definitely a part where it's like, you know what? I prayed about this. I'm doing this in good faith. Hopefully it's received in the spirit that it comes out, so. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Well, I know you drew me once, and I was so excited. I was so honored, and I was like, I don't care what this looks like. I just was like, oh, my gosh. I made it. Sketchy Sermons. Drew a clip from one of my sermons. So we appreciate it. We appreciate it. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:15:31] Speaker A: Well, I know that creative work is so special. Right? Creative work inspires, and it helps people make connections. But what do you think it is about, like, the visual aspect of storytelling, that text alone can't communicate? Like, why don't you just post? You know, so many pastors or influencers, this is not a slam on them, but they'll just do, like, black Square white words up, easy. Done. 15 seconds. You know, what is it about the creative element that captures something different? [00:15:59] Speaker B: Well, I think the hard part right now, especially with that kind of content, is how like, like TikTok and Reels has melted our brains. Like we can't, you know, we've gotten to the point where reading a sentence is like, I ain't got time for that. [00:16:12] Speaker A: Seriously. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's very difficult. So the whole idea of kind of stopping the scroll and that's where when I switched from like doing sermon sketchnotes where they were just very busy and a lot of content and just got down to like you know, a sentence or a couple sentences, it actually worked out a lot better because it kind of stopped that feed. As you're going through, and you're going through ads and you're going through the. Yeah, the, the, the stock picture with the text over it or whatnot. It's just, I don't know, it just all kind of blends together and people just aren't spending time reading things, you know, so it's, it's kind of a weird little thing. And even on mine it's like I'm trying to find ways where it's like, all right, the, the, the stock static picture isn't as effective anymore. Like you, like, you have to figure out like, how do I get this into a reel and how do I add motion and interactivity to it and you know, where it was never there before. So it's hard. I think you just gotta be in the might the right mindset for it. I wish things like blogs and long form content was more popular because I think that's, it's kind of the realm for pastors, I would imagine. Like, like, let's sit down and think about this then in a 5,000 word essay. But gosh, I don't know. People just don't. We don't. We've ruined ourselves. It's like we're the problem. Like we melted our brains and we don't have. I mean I'll like, I write software. There's times where the project will build and while it's building, I'll pick up my phone. A bill takes four seconds. Like I can't look at the screen for four seconds without like, oh my gosh, let's see what's happening. [00:17:50] Speaker A: Yep, I know it's. I do the same thing all the time where I constantly like, I will pick up my phone, do something, put it down, and before it's barely lands on the table, I pick it Back up again. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, it's just. We are. It is. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Man. [00:18:02] Speaker A: We are so trained. So, yeah. [00:18:04] Speaker B: Oh, that is. Yeah. That is so humbling. There is nothing more depressing than opening your phone, looking at Instagram, closing it, putting it down, picking it back up, reopening Instagram. [00:18:16] Speaker A: You're like, what am I doing? We all do it. We all do it. This is how. We need good content on there, though, see, so that it's not just a barrage of. More like, bad news. So. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Yep. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Well, you again. I picked this up. This is so stunning. The sketchbook Bible that you just illustrated with Thomas Nelson. Look at these illustrations. Oh, my gosh. Unreal. How did this happen? [00:18:46] Speaker B: Thankfully, I'm very fortunate in that all the book deals that I've gotten, they've come to me, they've seen my work, and they were like, we want to work together and do something. So the VP reached out to me. Really great guy. His name's Philip Nation. He's vice president over there. Thomas Nelson. And he kind of pitched the idea, and we. We worked together on it, and it, you know, through some great editing and art direction. I think we. I think we. We came out with some good stuff. It was. Yeah. I've got. Now you've got the teal one. [00:19:18] Speaker A: There's. [00:19:18] Speaker B: There's multiple. There's. There's the. The brown one with the lion on the front. [00:19:22] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Is it going to focus on. [00:19:24] Speaker A: It has a lion. Yes. I have a dove. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So. So the art. The art director came up with that stuff. And. And then there's a. There's like a white and black one that has the. There's like a slip cover that's on it. So that's. That one's on there, too. So. [00:19:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Mine came in, like, a box. Like a black and white, like, beautiful box as well. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So there's a hardcover one where. That's, like the. The COVID of it. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Oh, cool. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So it kind of came together. They. They reached out. I wanted to do it, and, you know, after. I think it took two years to get it all done, but it's a little bit. Little overwhelming. But I think we came up with something that we're all happy with and excited for people to start seeing. [00:20:09] Speaker A: No, I mean, I just flipped again, too. I'm like, let me just get to the Gospels. This Jesus being mocked by the soldiers. For people that are watching on YouTube or can see it. Oh, my gosh. Paul I mean, just the. It amazes me, the, like, emotion that you can convey in a black and white sketch. It just. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. I want to know logistically, just for me, I didn't prep you for this, but because we were both doing books at the same time, my editing process was insane at times because it was like, hey, you need to clarify this, or people are going to read into this and think you're saying something you didn't say and yada, yada, because that's. I have a lot of words, Paul. And so there was a lot of, like, finagling. Did you have to do a lot of editing in your sketches? [00:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a fair. You know, I'll give a lot of credit to Thomas Nelson. They really didn't put a lot of guide rails on it. [00:21:05] Speaker A: I was gonna ask. Okay. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah. The requirements were. There was a number of pieces that they needed. They needed them to be in different sizes. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:21:13] Speaker B: And there's definitely some back and forth where it was like, oh, that doesn't quite nail what we're going for. This isn't. This isn't quite what. What is need here? Or this is inaccurate or something like that. So, yeah, like, it was really helpful to have that kind of, like, they let me kind of go free with some of them. Like, you'll see some of them in there. I'm imagining some pushback where people are going to be like, that's not historically accurate. [00:21:36] Speaker A: And it's one in particular, [00:21:40] Speaker B: I think I did put in the armor of God. There's both a male and a female warrior. So that. That one might get amazing. Yeah, that one might get some pushback. And drawing. And drawing the people. I tried to be as. As diverse as I could. You know, it's. It's. It's hard to draw different ethnicities, especially when you just have black and white. [00:22:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:02] Speaker B: So I tried. I tried to. To be out there as much as I could. You know, it's hard because in different sections, you know, like, when you're drawing the prophets, it's like you just got a bunch of dudes that wore robes. Right. You know, it's kind of hard to say, like, well, Elijah looked like this and the other guy looked like that. So. Yeah. No, so. So the process, there was definitely some back and forth. There's definitely some. Some figuring things out. I think the little helpful part when you're illustrating versus writing, because I always. I would think writing would be way harder because it's like a blank Page, like, here you go. Like, fill it with words, you know, mine, it's like, well, we got. We want to illustrate Paul, you know, or we want to illustrate so and so. And you know, you kind of have a reference like, okay, so and so was around this time and probably would have looked like this and probably wore this. So I think sometimes the illustration is a. Is a little easier in that sense that you already have a direction that you're going in. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:01] Speaker B: I think the hardest part we found was trying to find the style that's going to work. And because it was such a long project, you know, making sure an image drew drawn in January is kind of still in the same style that matches the one in December. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Because it's like, I feel like your style is pretty consistent like always. [00:23:18] Speaker B: No, no. Well, when I look at it, I could see, I mean, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's. That's a, that's a three year ago sketchy sermon style as opposed to a. As a one year ago. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting how that works. You know, it's like you, you pick things up, you, you try out new things and, and they work differently. So it's, it's always kind of evolving. But no, the. I. I mean, very much kudos to the editing staff. Like, I didn't. All I had to do too was provide the pictures. Like, like, here you go now. It was a lot. Right. So it was, I mean, it was over a year's worth of content that I would have made for sketchy sermons. Kind of like compressed and provided. But they were able to take all that and space it out and figure what goes where and whatnot. So it worked out. It worked out good. It was nice to have a collaborative process because if I would have had just done this, like, like, I'm just gonna illustrate a Bible, like, it would have, it would have blown me apart just trying to figure out every, every little part. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So they didn't give you a lot of guardrails, but did they give you a list of like, draw these things? [00:24:21] Speaker B: I did get that, yes. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:24:23] Speaker B: And it would change. There was, you know, as they're laying stuff out, there would be some changes like, hey, this was. We planned for a quarter page on this one, but can you make it a full page? Or, you know, stuff like that? So that happened quite a bit. But I think we were able to ro with it and make it work. So. [00:24:39] Speaker A: Awesome. Were there any. And now when you're doing this Bible or like, maybe even Back to your sermon notes. Have you ever started to illustrate a story and then you realize, like, oh, maybe your understanding of that story was incomplete? [00:24:51] Speaker B: That happens more often than I'd like to. I'd like to admit. [00:24:56] Speaker A: I love that. We're supposed to be learning all the time, Paul. It's not a bad thing. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Here, I'll show you. I'll show you how. I'll show you. Let me pull up my iPad. I'll show you. Let me get my sketchy sermons stack out. Right? Yeah. So you can kind of see, like, here, let me get it up here. So it'll focus. So there you go. Like, you can see the red X's. That's usually pull back. So you can see. That's usually when a thing doesn't work. So, yeah, like, there's another one. So I was doing something. Like, it just didn't. The piece didn't come together. Oh, the. So the question mark is like, am I sure I want to do this one? I'm not sure. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Okay. [00:25:34] Speaker B: In the skull and crossbones is. They asked me to take it down. So that happens every now and then where I'll draw something and they reach out and like, hey, I don't. I don't like this. Can you take it down? And I. I do that as well. So, yeah. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it happens maybe, like, how they look or is it because they don't like the. How you interpreted it? [00:25:55] Speaker B: It's been. It's been multiple things. Yeah. So it doesn't happen that often. I think I've had like three in. In the whole time I've done it. But obviously, you know, if somebody's like, I don't like this, or I don't like any part of it, like, absolutely down it comes, like, sorry, didn't mean to ruin your day or whatnot. So that happens. But. But yeah, a lot of times it's. It's hard because it's either. Either the. The likeness doesn't come together. The quote doesn't work. Like, I'll. I've had that happen, too, where I've drawn a person and then I've got the quote, and I'm like, I don't know. This just doesn't. It's either not saying anything. It's not saying enough. It's saying too much. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't. And it's really hard, especially now with social media, where the simple sentences work, but they also allow people to insert their own opinions into it. So sometimes you'll say Something that's very innocuous, but it's taken in the wrong way. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:55] Speaker B: And that, that happens quite a lot. So. Yeah, yeah, that's. You know, I always thought my hardest part in doing all this stuff was going to be like just getting the likeness down. But that, yeah, there's a whole realm to it because I know, you know, certain things you post, like, oh, if I don't, if I don't clarify this or if I don't do this right, it's going to be a problem. And there's some, you know, I've got some where it's like the, the person I'm illustrating, like, I know, like, like I think I had one of Jon Stewart in there and I haven't posted it yet, but I'm like, I know just by who this person is. A whole section is going to be upset about it. Right? [00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, so yeah, I'm like very excited. I'm like, oh, post it so I can share it. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Right. I don't even know what the quote is. [00:27:37] Speaker A: I can only imagine. So when you are create, when you are illustrating and maybe more specifically like to this Bible is the goal to. But in general is the goal more to like explain the text or are you trying to reveal something that maybe is more hidden? [00:27:56] Speaker B: That's a hard one because, yeah, it's hard because it's not that I have any more insight on anything than anybody else. It's just more of an exploration. And I kind of took it the same way that I take sketchy sermons where it's not like, hey, I've got a new revelation for anybody. It's just more like, hey, here's an interesting thing that I, that I discovered. So like, and sometimes I try to push it, you know, like a job. I illustrate both the Leviathan and the behemoth and it's like they're kind of ridiculous, over the top, otherworldly monster looking things. But it was like, hey, did you know this was in here? Like, you know, there's these, there's this mention of these like animals that we've never heard of before that might be just these imagined beasts of some sort. So, so yeah, I guess in that sense it was always kind of like, what, what would this look like if it was just like a ridiculous thing? You know, the one thing that they came up with that I really enjoyed was the metaphors. If you look in the index, there's, I think there's 30 of them and there are these ideas of drawings or whatnot, but it's more metaphorical and more, you know, so it's not like a historical. [00:29:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Accurate thing. Like, there's. I think sometimes we come to the Bible as like a manual. Right. Like a. Like a instruction manual. Like, I'm just looking for the thing to tell me exactly what to do. And it's like, we could just enjoy these verses together. [00:29:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Like. Like they're kind of amazing. Yeah. Like, here's the. The medical. The metaphor section, if you go back in there. And those were. Those were a lot of fun to do because it was just, you know, like fountain of life, the heart of stone, I think, actually drew like a. Like an actual human heart, and it's made out of stone and it's kind of, you know, on the nose, but it was just. It was just fun and edifying to just enjoy the text. Like, what is this saying? Let me try to illustrate it, and let's see what happens. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Well, and again, back to what we kind of touched on earlier. Like, your illustration of that metaphor is going to bring it to life for people in a new way, where I think often those are the kinds of things. Exactly. We just read over and we're like, okay, I heart a stone, yada, yada, yada, whatever. But to actually see it visually pulled out is going to make people stop and go, oh, like. Like stop the scroll even as they're reading their scripture and be like, wait, what does that actually mean? You know, asking questions. That's so great. [00:30:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. 100%. Yeah. And that's. And I found myself. That was one of the things in going through this process is when you're. When you're looking at it in that mindset. Because I think for a lot of time I would kind of do the, you know, like the. Read the Bible in the year, the. Read this paragraph. And you do. You kind of just step over things like, well, that doesn't mean anything or that. But when you're looking at it from an illustration standpoint, it's like, oh, that could. Actually, that's kind of an interesting thing. Like, why did he say that? That doesn't. Yeah, it kind of doesn't make any sense. And. [00:30:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:50] Speaker B: What would that look like? [00:30:51] Speaker A: Well, it makes us pause and it makes us slow down and it makes us. The Bible came more to life for me than anything else when I started asking questions of it. And I was like, same like you just said, why does this say this? Or why did he use a specific language? You know, those kinds of things. So that's how we make it actually something that matters as opposed to. I just have to get so many words, you know, in front of my eyeballs every day. So I can, like, check it off. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Yep, a hundred percent. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Well, I want to talk, Paul, a little bit about AI and how AI. You've mentioned it a little bit on your feed, and I. I'm guessing that maybe this is something to do with partly why you've pulled back from social media a little bit. And so because I've got you here as a creative, I want to kind of pick your brain on this. What do you think happens to creatives in a world where AI can do essentially the same thing that you can do, but much quicker? [00:31:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a question I'm constantly asking. Not only. So AI is kind of infecting every area of my professional life right now. Obviously from illustration, AI creates illustrations. I'm a web developer. AI is writing all my code right now. I'm a small business owner. I write most of my. Most of the stuff I make is E learning content. So instructional design, that's another field which is totally being disrupted by AI. It's hard because it's. You look at the stuff and it's. You're like, what am I even doing? It's doing it now. But I think it's important. The part that I've landed on is that it's very important to let the rope, I call them the robots. Like, let the robots do what the robots are good at and let the humans do what the humans are good at. And I think it's important for people to remember that AI is a microwave or a IKEA end table. It's just this thing that helps you do something, but if it's. It shouldn't do the human part of what you're doing, in essence. So I don't think art has a lot to it if it's generated by AI, because there's no. You can't pour yourself into an AI generated thing. Right. There's no. There's no time. There's no experience. And that was. You know, when I think about art, I don't think about the medium necessarily as far as music or illustration or painting or speaking or writing or any of that. It's more the sacrifice of your hours and your life into a piece that people can consume. And AI doesn't have any of that. It's kind of like if you went to a restaurant and all the meals were just microwave dinners, well, you would accomplish the task of being fed. You wouldn't be hungry. Anymore. But there's no artistry in it. There's no sacrifice. There's no, like, oh, I've been cutting onions for 10 years and learning how to work all this machinery, and now I can create these meals. It's just a means to an end. And you, and you find the same thing with programming and you find the same thing with instructional design and that, you know, you'll hear a lot like, oh, programmers are going to be irrelevant because now all the robots can write all the code. And it's like, well, that was never the thing. Like, the code was just a tool we used to solve business problems. And you still need humans to solve business problems. You can't. The machines can't do it yet, you know. So I do think there are some parts of artistry and illustration especially, they're being consumed by AI. And that's kind of the, to quote the Seth Godin, like, if you're just doing commodity art, right, if you're doing the stuff that doesn't really matter and it's not really there, then, yeah, AI is going to take all that up. And, and there are some areas where, you know, where I would get a lot of commissions for creating content to kind of stop the scroll. Like, that's being handled by AI now. Yeah, but I think there's a revulsion to it, to be honest. You know, not, not, not in that people are not using it, but there's just nothing that lasts there. Like when somebody posts an AI illustration or AI pictures. There's no permanence, there's no pride. There's no, like, oh, I'm going to print this out and save it for later. There's no, I'm going to hang out, right? Yeah. Like, nobody's buying books of, well, nobody's buying books knowingly of AI authors writing AI words or AI illustrations. So it's. I still think there's a place for artists. I think part of our jobs become more and more about showing our humanity and showing our processes and showing that the things that people are getting are real art and not just something that's mass produced. I think it's the difference between buying a Timex and a Rolex. You know, if you just. There's nothing wrong with a Timex. It tells the time, it does it better than the Rolex. But you buy a Rolex because you value craftsmanship and artistry and human and human endeavor over other things. I've got a buddy who collects luxury cars and it's interesting, Right, Exactly. Right. Like, I will take The Aston Martin, please. But it's interesting because he considers them art, and they really are, because when you get in a luxury car, like, if. If something looks like wood, it's actually wood. Or if something is stitched, it's actually stitched. Which means. Which means people were in there, like, making this thing and putting it together, and they're not consistent and, you know, they're tricky to deal with, but there's just more to it. So I think in this age, like, AI will continue to get better and it'll be fine. I don't think it's ever going to replace artists. I think it's going to be a tool that we use to propel our art. Now, I'll say when I. When I. Because I'll do. Every now and then I'll, like, like, make this drawing and just see what it does, you know, and it does fine, but it doesn't kind of have the. The same style that I have. But what AI is really good at is augmenting that stuff. When you throw your illustration into Claude or Chat GPT and you're like, help me. Help me fix this or give me three points to make this better, it does really good. It's like, you know what? You would get more separation if you made the lines darker or you could do this or that. So, yeah, I don't. I don't think. And I probably should publish my thoughts at some point on AI because I don't think it's all bad. Setting aside the massive data center issue. Just taking over a town. [00:37:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah. The whole, like, oh, we just scraped the entire Internet and didn't ask anybody permission to train our bot. Like, just put all the issues aside. [00:37:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:25] Speaker B: You know, I think it's going to be here and it's going to help augment, but I think artists more and more are just going to have to show and express their humanity outside of these tools. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Okay. I definitely. It's interesting that you mentioned humanity because I see creativity as a gift, as a skill. You know, it's the reflection of our creator, God. Right. Like, who created all the things and then created people to be creative. And I'm curious if you think AI is kind of, kind of change the way that we see people as creators, like, as we end up using AI more. Or if you think, like, are you saying that you think that's going to be the thing that keeps us from falling into it completely, is still wanting to hold on to that? [00:38:10] Speaker B: Huh? That's a good question. [00:38:15] Speaker A: I don't even know if it made sense. Did it make sense? [00:38:18] Speaker B: No, it makes sense. It's just. It's interesting to me. The whole AI part is that, Like, yes, there is this weird thing, and I don't know what it is, because there's something that is innately in us that's probably put in us by God that says that we value human endeavor and experience more than something that's manufactured. I just don't. You know, it's like. I wish I could express it in a better way, but it's like I was saying, it's like, if you give somebody, like, I feel like when I do a drawing of somebody and it's. They see the procreate, you know, time lapse, and they can see that I actually drew it. And just the recognition, like, oh, that took a couple hours of somebody's time. That means so much more than if I uploaded their picture to AI and generated something and just put it out there. And that's. I mean, obviously some people value that stuff, like the. The President for some reason, but it's like, I don't think anybody's flattered that somebody made an AI amalgamation of them. You know, it's more. It's kitsch. It's, you know, five below. It's just. It's like, yeah, it's like, oh, it's. It's. That's kind of neat for the second I saw it. I mean, nobody's like, you know, like the. The cat fighting videos. That is big unreals right now, which I watched one time. And now my whole feed is like cats, like, actually boxing each other. But you're like, it's like, I wouldn't watch a movie of this. You know, it's like, compared to. To, you know, watching like a. Like a. Like a good theatrical movie. It's just kind of like, oh, my. My brain has devolved into entertaining itself for five seconds at a time. And AI is great for that. But I don't. I don't think there's any lasting to it. There's no. There's just no good experience. I don't think anybody comes off of watching or consuming AI content. And they're like, oh, that was really good for my soul. Like, I feel enriched having. Having experienced this thing that the machine created for me. I just don't think it's there. [00:40:28] Speaker A: It's such. I love that you said, like, I don't want to watch a movie of this. I mean, it's back to what we. At the very beginning, right about. Like, we have to Pick up our phones. We need to be distracted. And I think AI generated images especially might be good for, like. Oh, that's interesting. Like, I never would have thought to, you know, see Darth Vader doing this weird thing or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Like, to put people in a different world or so. But, yeah, it's like, it's maybe funny, maybe interesting for a second, like you said, then we're over it. So that actually gives me a little bit of hope that people will hold on to the appreciation of the humanity of the thing and that this is just part of the whole, like, needing to be distracted, needing to be efficient, even, maybe. [00:41:11] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. No, I still believe in us. I still think, you know, God has created us to do amazing things, and I still think we can. We can push back a little bit. You know, I don't. I don't. You know, it's frustrating because it's like our attention is being monopolized for profit, and at some point, hopefully, we're able to push back against that. But, yeah, yeah, boy, I don't want to leave that on a downer. Like, manipulated into. [00:41:42] Speaker A: You're set. You're fine. You're fine. Okay, so we can do it. Let's take it back to faith for a second. [00:41:48] Speaker B: Okay? [00:41:49] Speaker A: Okay. And maybe this will be my last AI question for you. What do you think will happen to people's faith if everything that they're consuming and the way that they're growing, their faith is in this AI? Like, it's faster, it's easier, it's more efficient, but that kind of becomes the mode or the vehicle for their spiritual development. [00:42:12] Speaker B: That is interesting. You know, you hear some terrible stories about AI. Like, there was one, I just read it, like, a week ago, where a guy was convinced AI convinced him he figured out a new form of mathematics. [00:42:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:42:30] Speaker B: Like, he spent. He spent so much time. I mean, they found, like, the conversations were huge. It was like. Like he had written the equivalence of a novel, prompting AI trying to figure it out. And you would just constantly, like, is this right? Is this right? Is this right? And it's. It's a little scary because there are times where the AI subtly, It's. It's pushing you in a direction you may or may not want to go. It's intoxicating to have something that agrees with you and might agree with your garbage opinions. You know, it's like. Like. Like everything you. You know, I always make this joke like. Like, people are like, why you use Claude instead of chat GBT and it's like, well, if you ask Claude, like, hey, should I cut off my finger? It's like, no, you should absolutely not do it. But chat GPT is always like, well, here's five different types of saws you can use to take that annoying finger off. And. But it's a little crazy because I find myself, and I know we live in like the post truth era where you're asking it questions and you're like, are you sure this is right? Are you sure this is right? Are you sure this is right? And you know, it's, it's, you have to, you know, kind of like we were saying before, with our minds and our attention spans, it's like there are times where it's like you just have to like, get the book and open it up and read it and not consult the machine with your opinions and actually dwell on this stuff. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:00] Speaker B: And I think that's a discipline that we're losing. I think, you know, sometimes it can be a shortcut. I, I saw somebody refer to it as click, like the movie click. I don't know if you remember that Adam Sandler one where he had like the. [00:44:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:12] Speaker B: The remote control where you could just fast forward. Yeah, yeah. And it feels that way sometimes because you'll, you'll have a question and you ask it and then it gives you a whole bunch of information and you kind of accelerated your learning like a little too fast. Like, oh, I, I kind of stumbled upon this way too quickly. So I think the faith question is interesting because I think all of the disciplines that are outlined in the Bible, fasting, Sabbath, praying, like, all these things have nothing to do with the machines and have everything to do with us intentionally slowing down and, and listening and praying and being thoughtful and using our own minds. And I think as long as we revert to those, you know, and again, let the robots do what the robots do well. But I don't know if the robots build a well thought out mind. They can inform you and they can guide you, but man, if you're, if you're relying, I pray we don't get to the point where we're all just relying on what the AI is going to tell us to understand. It's anything. Yeah, we're already at a point where, you know, for the longest time our phones have all the, have had all the answers, but it was too annoying to Google them. Or it was like, right, like, like, oh, the answer's out there, but who's got time to write a sentence? And now it's even worse because it's like, well, I don't have time to read Wikipedia, like consume all this content and then give it back to me in like a sentence or two. And that's. I think that's detrimental to our faith, honestly. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Well, I think like you said, we have to take our mind to it, right? Like, I'm not anti chat GPT. I actually like it quite often. I have used her enough that I have named her. Okay, so her name is Gemma. It just is what it is. There are also times where I will be like, gemma, get it together. Because what you just said is inaccurate. Like, what are you doing? And so especially when it comes to our faith, I think there's. My fear is there's a tendency for this to just reiterate more blind belief where right now people are already growing up in the faith or have grown up in the faith where they went to church and they believed something because the pastor said so and the Bible said so. And so that means God said so. And they have never questioned it and they have never read it for themselves and they've just gone, okay, well I'm going to let this belief that I was just handed and told believe this as ultimate truth to become your lens and your perspective for the way you see the humanity and yourself and the world. And we've seen that do some very damaging things and people. But you don't know until you, like you said, pick up the book and go through to catch it. And so my concern is that with AI, it's even easier to do that. And so we just have to be even more aware when it comes to our faith of going like, sure, use it for context or research or get some other things. But we have to take our brains to it. We have to keep asking it questions and taking it all with a grain of salt and knowing that it could be wrong. And when we read something that it puts out, be like, wait a minute, like if that doesn't sound right, you know, to interrogate that. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, 100%. That's really well said. It's, it's the wrestling, I find is the good work of, of our faith. The like, well, it says this, but what, what does that mean? What does it mean to me? What is, what is God trying to say here? Or is he saying anything at all? It's right, you know, it's that, it's that struggle of the faith that I think is important. Not the, not the mode. Not the mode necessarily. And I think that's where AI kind of wraps it up. It like gives you this nice little package box of of your ideas and it's like, here you go. You can think this and yeah, sometimes that's not good. And, and especially with how it tries to agree with you. Like I was saying, I, I, I don't remember who said it, but I wanted to illustrate it one time and it was like, right now the, the dumbest person you know is being told by AI that their idea is fantastic. You know, it's like, yeah, it's so true. It's not the dumb. And I never liked it because it's like, I don't like people calling people dumb, but it's like, you know, if I've got a hundred ideas, like, they're not all great, but if I give it to AI, it's probably like, oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, you should totally sell all and become a no bad in Borneo or something like that. You know, it's just, it doesn't know any better. So it's, yeah, that, that and, and I find that in many different areas in, in faith and business, you know, and, and illustration and art and all of it. It's like the more you kind of outsource your decisions to AI, the, the flimsier becomes and the more you lean on it, which is scary. You know, like, like if you're using AI to build your faith, like, what happens if you don't have access to AI? What, what happens if, you know, we find out the bubble popped and it's like, oh, generating images and videos are actually really expensive and you need to pay for it. Now you're like, oh my gosh, what is my faith without AI like, like we've gone to a bad place here. Like, if your faith has a as a third party integrated in it, that's not Jesus or the Bible. Like, we got a real problem. [00:49:30] Speaker A: Will you please sketch that quote on your own feed? If you're, what did you just say? If your faith has a third party that's not just you, Jesus and God, we have a problem. Paul, that is, that's so brilliant and so applicable to so many things AI other people. Like, oh my gosh, we could put so many things in there. I love that. So good. Well, if people want to, AI aside, if they're listening to you, they're like going through your feed looking at the Bible, all the things. If they're like, man, I really wish that I could bring creativity into my faith somehow. How would you encourage them to, to do that? [00:50:10] Speaker B: That's a Hard one. I think the biggest thing and, and I found this about myself with, with any artistic endeavor, you know, illustration seem to be to work out for me, but I've dabbled with photography and music and all this other things. But we kind of like we were joking when we were starting on the, on the call, like the perfectionism where you're like, well, I can't integrate art into my faith until I reach this plateau. Or I can't, I can't integrate what I'm doing with, with anything because I haven't got to that level yet. I would say put all that aside and kind of just to wrap up the whole AI part. An imperfect human production is going to be way better than any technically proficient AI one. You know, if you're, if you're into photography and you're taking pictures and you're overlaying verses on top of that, that is way better than some like illustrated AI slop thing that's just kind of thrown out there. I think people are struggling and are desperate for a human touch on things. And I think that's the one thing that the AI can't do. It just doesn't make human things. So your imperfect song that you wrote, your imperfect picture that you drew, your imperfect painting, your imperfect blog posts, any of that stuff, you know, people, people are hungry for it. And especially with your faith and like, I can guarantee you, I, I used to talk about this a lot, but the whole like, small art versus big art thing, where it's, you know, if like the big art was like, I want to be an artist, so I'm going to start drawing superheroes, right? But a million people draw superheroes. But if you draw a person who delivered a sermon and they've got a 300 person church, they are going to pay attention to your art and it's going to mean something to them, even if it's imperfect. So I would say for people, if you're a writer, write about something that somebody you know. Like, like if somebody comes to Mosaic and here's one of your sermons and writes a blog post about it, like you're going to read it, right? It's like, like have an audience of one and it's probably going to mean a lot to you if they're like, oh, I was touched this way and I learned this and this and that. Like, that's, that's amazing. I don't, I wish we had more of that. But I think because of the perfectionism, because of how things are nowadays, we don't see It. But I, so, so the short answer, Let me have this super long answer to your short question, is that people should just do it. If you're like, whatever your thing is, like, whatever it is, like, you're ready to do it right now. Like, like, if you're, if you, you want to make videos, like, use your phone, make a video, make it about something. It's going to be great. If you're an illustrator drawing sticky notes and take pictures of it, it's like the tools are all there. We are our own roadblock. We put up this perfectionism, and it's got to be great. And I, I'm going to wait to do it until this time. Like, none of that matters. You just got to start and you just got to do it, and people will be surprised. The reaction, I mean, when I, when I had 500 followers, plenty of people were like, oh, this is really cool. That's. Wow, thanks for drawing this thing. This was really neat. It doesn't take, you know, a lot to really start making an impact to people, and they should just start doing it. [00:53:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And I do hope that we, we as a collective, we, you know, can remember to find grace for the things that are imperfect because people are going to say things wrong, they're going to interpret things wrong. It's not, you know, but again, like, my hope is that for the person wanting to start something creative that maybe is afraid of the pushback, it's going to be there. Someone will not like it. Like, there will be some kind of challenge. But if we can just hold on to that idea that you said of like, like human, something made by humans. Humanity is always going to be better than, like a quote unquote perfect, AI generated thing. Like, just, let's just lean on that. Let's go with that, you know? [00:54:11] Speaker B: Yeah. We don't have to please everybody. [00:54:12] Speaker A: It's okay. [00:54:15] Speaker B: Well said. And yeah, I didn't address the pushback, but, yeah, they're out there. They can't wait to say something mean about whatever you're doing. Like, just go past that. I wish there was some, some thing I could say to people, like, or I wish there was some art we could make that's not going to have somebody just come out of the woodwork with 15 followers and no post to tell you that's the worst thing they've seen today. I can't believe you spent the time to, like, they're there. Wear it as a badge of honor. Like, you made it. You made it. You. You got there. You have Haters. Like, you did it. Like, that is a. That is a bad. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Those are bots also, right? [00:54:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:54:57] Speaker A: All right, Paul, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:55:05] Speaker B: Oh, man. You know, I saw this on the. On the questions, and I'm like, man, I wish I had something pithy to say. It's, you know, just like Jesus said, love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. Like, if you do those things, like, you. You're good. Like, it doesn't. I think we complicate things so much so many times where it's like, oh, you got to do this and you got to do that. It's like, man, are you just. Are you taking care of people? Are you just being a light? Are you. Are you doing the work? Are you in the book? Are you praying? Are you following the disciplines? Are you. Is there somebody out there you need to forgive? Like, is there somebody that doesn't deserve grace that you could give grace to? Is there somebody that needs compassion where there's none? It's like, just. It's crazy to me that some of these things are. You know, we think we need to have money and influence and all this other stuff to make a difference, but it's like, on a person to person level, somebody out there just needs to hear, like, it's okay. It's gonna be all right. You're doing great. [00:56:07] Speaker A: Yep. [00:56:08] Speaker B: And it's like, we. We could be that person. So, yeah, becoming Church, all those things. Jesus said it best. I would just follow him on that one. [00:56:17] Speaker A: Listen, preach it, Paul. Come on. That was a whole sermon that was perfect. And somebody needed to hear just exactly that. So thank you. Thank you for your responses. Again, thank you for this stunning Bible. We will link it up as well as your Instagram feed so people can go and see. I'm gonna go and find mine that you did for me, and I'm gonna link up that one too. People can check that out. I was so appreciative, but thank you for being here. It's been really great. [00:56:43] Speaker B: Yes, thanks. Thanks again for having me. It's so good to see you again. And until next time, yes, until next time. [00:56:54] Speaker A: I would love to hear your thoughts on this whole conversation. Do you use ChatGPT? How have you found it helpful? What are you weary of, especially when it comes to your faith form information. Scroll to the Instagram, post on my feed. Hristenmochleryoung for this episode. Post and let me know what you think. And be sure to check out Paul's illustration, both in the Sketchbook Bible as well as in the multitude of interesting quotes you'll find on his feed. It's all linked up in the show notes. As always, until next time, thanks so much for listening. Send this episode to someone who is interested in maybe both creativity and or AI in general and keep becoming the church to the people around you.