Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young and my guest today is actor, comedian and Sirius XM radio show host John Fuselgang. John's new book, the Separation of Church and Hate, released early in September and immediately sold out, which I genuinely believe is confirmation that this is a book for this time in history.
Many of you who send me DMs on Instagram telling me that you feel crazy or alone are going to feel so seen in this conversation.
I will also say if you consider yourself to be more of a conservative Christian, this might be an episode that requires a self awareness check in if you do find yourself starting to feel defensive and if you do, that is okay. There are plenty of other places where we can all operate in our echo chambers with other people whose voices just confirm what we already believe. But this podcast exists because I wanted to create a space where we can have nuanced conversations from a variety of perspectives.
Even if you don't agree with John fully, I hope you'll listen for the commonalities of heart and hope and a unity in growing more like Jesus together.
And in the future, when someone from a different place or perspective is behind the microphone, we can all remember that it is the collective wisdom and experience of Becoming Church that makes it a show that's unique and accessible to all believers. You know, kind of like that message of Jesus.
Without further ado, straight off the Daily show with Jon Stewart. He's gracious enough to work us in. It's John Fugelsang.
All right, John, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: So excited to have you. I know that you have been doing all kinds of things lately. You've been on late night. Are you in a studio right now? Is this like back to back interviews for you today?
[00:02:10] Speaker A: I'm at home right now, but I'll be doing a lot of interviews and then I'm on MSNBC later on and then I'm doing my own Sirius XM show tonight. So yeah, it's been.
I really appreciate getting to come someplace where I'm not necessarily talking about government lockdowns or troops in the streets. So thank you.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Yes, well, thank you for working us into your busy schedule. Now listen, before we jump into all of the content, give our listeners, they're probably looking at you like, why do I feel like I know this guy? I know this guy's face. So tell us A little bit about your background and your work.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Well, I'm a comedian and I focus a lot on politics and religion, but I have done all kinds of stuff.
I've been on TV shows and I host a show on Sirius xm.
I've, I've been an actor. I've been killed on csi. Apparently I'm in Coyote Ugly somewhere. If you don't blink, you.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: You are.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm in that movie. I, you know, I hosted America's Funniest Videos briefly. I was a VH1 VJ. I got to interview George Harrison, which wound up being his last public performance. I gave him a guitar and he played four songs. And so I did a lot in terms of like music programming. I got to work with McCartney and a lot of other cool people in that world and, and then I've been a regular talking about polit, politics and religion and comedy on msnbc, Fox News, cnn. Had my own series on Current TV and you know, did mornings on CNN for a bit with Soledad o'. Brien. I bounced around all over the place and, but my background was that my mom and dad were both ex clergy. My mother was a Catholic nun who entered the convent right out of high school. The convent put her through nursing school and sent her off to work with lepers in Malawi, Africa. My dad was a Franciscan brother who dressed like a Jedi knight in the brown robes and taught history to Catholic boys at, at, in, in Brooklyn and at St. Francis Prep. And my mom was briefly stationed in Brooklyn before Africa. My dad fell madly in love with this Southern girl in a nun's habit that he knew he was not allowed to be in love with.
Had a very good pen pal friendship with her in Africa for many years. And eventually she left the convent after they had known each other for 10 years. And they raised us on Long island to try to be progressive, free thinking Catholics, albeit deeply sexually repressed. And so that sort of led to the book that I wrote because I was raised to believe that Christianity was doing the stuff Jesus said, forgiving people and compassion and empathy and love, loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, not being violent like Gandhi and, and, and Dr. King said, standing up for workers like Dorothy Day and Catholic Charities, bringing peace like Jimmy Carter did with Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat and, you know, Jesus In Matthew 25, individuals and nations are going to be judged by how they take care of the poor, take care of the sick, welcome the stranger, and, and are kind to those in prison. That's what I grew up thinking. And like so many Americans. I grew up and it seemed like this religion of peace and love had been hijacked by a mean, often racist, often cruel, tax free clique that fought for conservative Christian domination of society, but didn't actually fight for the teachings of Jesus. And my book's not against conservative Christians at all. They're some of the nicest people I know. It's about haters. It's about people who use the Bible as a cloaking device to be hateful or cruel. And I wrote it for all believers and all atheists who have to live with a Christian nationalist or a fundamentalist. And I think calling people names and hating them back doesn't work, but I find that if we just use scripture, sometimes you can reach these folks and find some common ground. And at the very least, you'll give support to their wives and kids and everybody else at the cookout if you can do it in a civil, loving way.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Did you have a tipping point? I mean, you just covered a lot of ground.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: There was way, way too much. I'm way too chatty today. Too much.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Okay, but did you have a tipping point? Can you remember a moment where you were like, okay, I need to. Obviously your faith has always been important to you, but was there a moment or something happened that you were like, I really need to start talking about this more now?
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, as a kid. It began as a kid with women in the priesthood, in the Catholic Church.
And I began having a real problem with this notion that God made 51% of humanity unworthy of the. I just didn't see it. I didn't see it in the teachings of Jesus. I saw three women that went everywhere with Jesus and the 12, but the men who wrote the Bible said, oh, those, those weren't apostles. They were groupies.
A little older. In my teen years, it was the death penalty. And I just, I, I was like, wow, of all the policies that Jesus is clearly against, I mean, he does not mention terminating pregnancies, but he comes out against murdering sinners quite a bit.
And, and, and what, what changed me the most was that I was a really homophobic teenager, which was allowed in the 20th century. It was, it was encouraged. And I didn't know as I was a teenager working in regional theater that half the men I worked with and knew and loved were gay. I didn't know. I was a stupid kid. And one day it took a gay costume designer telling me to shut the hell up and straightening me out. And I realized, oh my God, I. I don't hate gay people. I love gay people. And. And how can this be that? My religion tells me that they're evil, but they're some of the kindest people I know. I'm. I'm a jerk. And it took many years of reading the Bible myself to find out that, you know, that's. Homophobia is not compatible with Jesus's ministry. So it's been a lot of tipping points for me, really. But when my mother gave me permission. Here's the big one.
I was in my 20s. My mother had never allowed me to tell her story that she'd been a nun. But then one day, I got to debate Jerry Falwell senior on Bill Maher's show. And after that, I said to my mom, look, I don't know what I'm doing here, but I do know that I want to try to push back against this cruelty with scripture. And I know that I'm a comedian. I don't do it in a very elegant way. And. And my mother gave me permission that day to tell her story, so that's why I'm allowed to tell my story.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Was she embarrassed that she'd left?
[00:08:40] Speaker A: They were always.
I never understood. They were always hyper private about it. Like, there were some family didn't come to the wedding because, you know, when you got a Franciscan in this family and none in this family, that's my get into heaven free card, right? I mean, I got someone who'll speak for me on the inside.
And there were folks who didn't come to the wedding and the family. And growing up, when I found out, I was seven years old, when I was down south with my grandma, and I found a whole box of photos and saw my mother dressed like an angel in these family pictures. And that's how I found out. And my mother made me promise that I would never tell anyone, that that was private. And people didn't. Other kids didn't need to know it. And so it took debating Jerry Falwell on national TV to have my mother change her mind about that.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: That is insane.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: How.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: What was that moment like?
Like, did you. Were you just fully competent? You're like, I know what I'm gonna say. Did he throw you off? Like, I can just.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: No, I'll tell you. I threw myself off because I was very young. And. And this is on the old ABC show where it was all about debating, right? And I loved Bill Maher's team. And I will always give Bill Maher credit. He was the first person in media to Encourage me to talk about this stuff he did because he wanted to have someone on to fight these people. But still, sir, with Falwell, I was still wanting to be George Carlin. I was in my 20s, and I just wanted to tear this guy down. And I called my dad to prep, and my dad was like the Johnny Cash song. He was like, don't take your guns to town, son. Leave your guns at home, Bill. Don't take your guns to town. He was like, don't let yourself hate this man. And I was like, but, dad, he was a segregationist. I mean, he's literally. He defended apartheid. Dad, this is everything that we hate. And my dad's like, don't hate the man.
But I went in there and I just wanted to have my moment. I wanted to have the moment where I took this guy down and, like, got the crowd on my side, and I did it and.
And I didn't achieve anything. I just. I just. I hated a hater on tv and I. You know, he was talking about how pro life he was, and I'm like, well, you support the death penalty, so I think you're pro some life. And the crowd all clapped. And, you know, it was like that I was taunting him, and I was taunting him to get the approval of the crowd. And I was being antagonistic and I was funny, but I don't think I changed any minds.
And it took me years to realize what if I had just been nice to him and not gone for the easy laugh and engaged him on what the scripture actually says? I could have done a lot more good if I had changed it from fire down to warmth. So this book is sort of in that spirit.
It's about how to use the scripture with your family, with know, with that relative that might be a racist, but you still love them. And how to show that hate is not a family value. Because I think you get further. You know, you probably won't sway them, but if you have this kind of like fundamentalist loved one where they think that bigotry can somehow be part of Jesus, I find that if you engage on scripture, they might appreciate that you at least. At least met them on their own terms. And I think I'll always believe this, that you'll get farther showing how Jesus wasn't an immigrant hating homophobe than if you just give in to hate and call your uncle an immigrant hating homophobe.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Right, right. How does that work? Because I know. Here's the thing. Here's the funny thing about scripture, John, which I'm sure you're aware, depending on how you want to pull it out of context and apply it, you can make it say pretty much anything.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Yes, you can. The Bible's a mirror.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: It really is. So does that work for you generally to kind of show people like, hey, this is what Jesus actually did and said, or did they have their own, you know, version?
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Well, let's be honest. I mean, a lot of our bigoted friends are far right friends. Not the nice conservative people. I'm talking the far right ones.
They are what I call small C Christians or anything but Jesus Christians. You're right. Whatever you want to see in the Bible, you'll see. If you want to see love and grace and forgiveness and compassion and peace, you will see it. And if you want to see condemnation and wrath and suppression of women and cruelty towards gay people, it's there. Whatever you want to see, the Bible will give you an answer. Which is why I like to say Christians follow Christ, not the Bible. The Bible doesn't tell us to follow the Bible. The Bible tells us to follow Christ. And so these guys get so mad.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: When I say that.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: So mad at the oh, you read letter. Well, you know what? If you're a Paulist, then call yourself a Paulist.
The fact is, like, on homophobia and it took me so long, it took me like a decade to begin to understand this. Because they teach us the story of Jesus when we're kids and too young to appreciate the politics of any of it. Like we're taught, you know, we don't understand when we were a kid that the Judean people of Palestine lived under European military occupation. We don't know what that means. You gotta see Star wars to begin to understand that as a kid and the way that women were treated in Jesus's time, women were property. They had no inheritance rights. If a man was tired of his wife, he just says, I divorce you. And that was it. If she didn't have family to go live with, it was prostitution or death.
I mean, menstruation was considered unclean in the eyes of God. If you gave birth to a, you were unclean. If you gave birth to a girl, you're unclean for twice as long. It's like the gospel according to Ike Turner. So when Jesus shows up, we as kids don't understand how revolutionary he was by talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. The way he allowed the bleeding woman to touch him, which was a violation of every law and taboo. The way he he with Mary and Martha when. When the twelve were over, and Martha's doing the housework, and Mary's sitting at his feet. And Martha's all mad because Mary's learning and not cleaning. And Jesus says, martha, chill out. You're stressing everybody out. She's made the right choice. Like, I, I always felt bad for Martha as a kid. Come on. Jesus helped the lady out. That's what my dad would have done. Yeah, me too.
But when you realize it was literally illegal for Jesus to be teaching Mary in the house and that Mary was sitting at his feet, which is where the prized pupil sits, then you realize he's literally telling Martha that education is more important for women than housework. And that's what they don't teach us about Jesus as a kid. So you can go around Paul, go to Paul and find the misogyny, go to Leviticus and find all the homophobia. You can try to find homophobia and Paul. I've grown up around it. No one follows Leviticus.
It's a rule book for Jews who've just escaped Pharaoh's slavery to keep their numbers up for 40 years in the wilderness. And that's why it's like, no incest, no. No bestiality, no sex on your period, no guys. With guys, it's not about taboos. It's about keep reproducing. There's no record of them stoning anyone to death for being gay. It's just. That's in the rule book, right? And if Christians want to use that to cite being cruel to gay people, well, then Leviticus 20:10 commands you to stone adulterers to death. I'll let you and Donald Trump work that out with the rocks on your own.
So it's like, you know, they teach us all these wonderful Bible stories when we're too young to know the politics. Yeah, the miracles are awesome, right? It's fantastic. You know, the cleansing, the temple scene with the money changers. Great drama, a great story.
But they don't teach us why Jesus's teachings and his words are as threatening to authoritarian power in this century as they were 2,000 years ago.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: So good, John.
Well, your book is called the Separation of Church and Hate, which is so catchy also at the time of recording, at least that is. It is on backorder everywhere. Like, you cannot find it. What happened? Did it just sell out?
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Like, let me tell you, how much time do you have?
I first, I, I, I first pitched this book as a proposal in, in 2010 when my father was in hospice. My dad was in Hospice. And I was down there helping my mom care for him in Florida for a long, long time. And I wrote my first proposal for this idea, Obama's first term. And my dad even hit send on my email so he's a part of this. And I was told at the time, you know, no one wait, it's a book about, for believers and atheists together to argue with right wing Christians. What? And back then I was all about anti war. It was still Iraq was fresh.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Over the years I kept pitching it and I'd have people, I once had one editor tell me I don't know any fundamentalist Christ. Somebody in New York City. I don't know any of these people. Why, why should I read this? Why would I relate to this? For years I was told, you know, I was, my last literary agent was like, can't you write your parents love story instead? No one wants to read about a guidebook to taking the Bible back from fundamentalist fascists and flock fleecing frauds. And I kept at it and I finally sold it on a pitch and because I, I went to Simon and Schuster, had a meeting and I said look, they say the, the fastest growing religious group in this country are Mormons. Some say it's Islam, some say that it's none of the aboves. But I always thought the fastest, the largest growing group are people who were, who were raised religious but now consider themselves spiritual because they're so turned off to so much of the meanness and hypocrisy that seems to be hand in hand with organized religion. And I've always really believed it. So I guess they believed it took a chance. They ordered 30,000 copies, which for a first time author is rare.
The week my book was released was 24 hours before Mr. Kirk was murdered in Utah.
And I'd written a book about how to take down Christian nationalism with non violence and humor in scripture.
And then we see another faceless coward taking down Christian nationalism with a bullet. So not surprisingly, for the first two weeks all, all media appearances were canceled. All of my cable news, everything. I was canceled from every. And I, you know, you expect it. It's going to happen.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: And yet this book still made it with no mainstream media support to the New York Times bestseller list for the first couple of weeks. And I think it's because there really is that audience. There are so many people out there who at times feel embarrassed calling themselves Christian because they don't want to be associated with these mean people. And I hate that. I hate, I hate Seeing my parents faith used as a cloaking device for cruelty. And there's no. I always ask my listeners who call into the show tell me the Jesus teaching that Donald Trump fights for. Give me chapter and verse, give me the specific thing he says. And that's how you realize they don't really know this Bible and they're counting on you not knowing it either. We don't have to hate these people, but they're trying to impose a very narrow right wing Jesus free version of Christianity on every level of our society. And they're going against the founding fathers and Jesus who is all about humility. Jesus's movement is all about servant leadership. The last shall be first, uplift the marginalized. He's not about dominating your school board or owning the libs. He's all about humility. So, you know, if you're walking around thinking you're better than other people because you're so Christian, you don't follow Christ, you've missed it. Yeah, you missed it, right? Like I was on this show with this one guy, like how Islam is. So I'm like, you think you're better than Muslims because of Jesus? You don't believe in Jesus if you're talking that way. And young people are growing up disgusted by what they see and thinking that that's what Christianity really is. So this is my contribution to the debate and it's very irreverent. It's, it's very inappropriate. I don't recommend buying it for your right wing relatives. It's for people who have to deal with the right wing people. Yes, because you're not crazy, I promise.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the question. Right. As a pastor, I see it all the time. People who are either saying, hey, like, I still like Jesus, but I don't want to be called a Christian or I want to have faith, but I don't want to be religious or am I crazy? Like, I feel like I'm losing my mind out here in this. So I think, John, what do you tell. Whether you. What's that?
[00:20:27] Speaker A: What do you tell them?
[00:20:29] Speaker B: I tell them that they're not alone. And I do exactly what you just said. I point them back to, hey, this is what Jesus actually says. And if we look at the gospel and we, I try to help them understand that maybe the churches that they've been part of or the faith that they were handed as children is limited and that it is small and that we can actually tear down the boxes that we try to keep God and Christianity in.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Right on.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: And Then we can find the mystery of something so much bigger that I think we were actually intended to have the whole time.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: That's Jesus's whole ministry. It's about. It's not about power or judgment. It's about transformation. It's about. I mean, the whole reason why the conservative bosses of his religion wanted to get rid of him was because his whole thing was going beyond your religion's teachings into a deeper kind of love, going beyond the spirituality that you have right now to get even deeper, going beyond your own faith. I mean, that was his whole. His whole thing. That's what, that's what the Sermon on the Mount is. You have heard it said. But I say to you, yes, that's the New Covenant. He's like, I'm telling you how it is now, baby. And he had no right to do it, you know, and, and, and when you look at the teachings and you realize that these authoritarian conservative religious leaders aligning with authoritarian government is literally what got Jesus killed.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: And it's the same battle we've always fought. Right, right. Like, like, like the Crusades.
That was the crusader Christians. It was. No, when the Crusades began, it was no longer about peace. It was about conquest. Yeah, and killing Jews and Muslims and pagans, but we'll force Jesus on them because we're so Christian. And it was the Christ followers like Saint Francis of Assisi who quit the war and resisted. And then the conqueror Christians after the Pope and the doctrine of discovery, and they're ravaging lands and killing indigenous people. And Columbus is raping and mutilating in the shadow of the cross. Yeah, but it's the Christ followers who resist. Bartolome de las Casas, the. The priest who protested to the Queen. The way Columbus was treating these people. Slavery propped up by Christianity. And the Christ followers, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, the Quakers, they resisted. I mean, organized capitalist Christians exploiting labor. And it's Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement leading the fight for a weekend and an end to child labor segregation.
It's the Christians putting it up. And it's Dr. King with the Bible, shaming them, using the Holocaust. It's Christian nationalists, and it's Christ followers like Diedrich Bonhoeffer who give their lives for their Jewish brothers and sisters.
This is the whole history of Christianity. It's always, always this, this. This Christian activism has always been in response to Christian authoritarianism. And throughout 2000 years, choose which side you want to be on. The authoritarian Christians or the Christ followers who resist that.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: And right now, I think we are primed to put our money where our mouth is. You know, I think there's so many people that are like, oh, I would have done this in the Holocaust. So I would have stay. I would have never denied Jesus like Peter did three times. Okay, well, let's see.
I think this is. Your book is such an encouragement to those of us who, you know, whether you call them activists or people in the resistance or disruptors or whatever, the people who are going, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like, I love Jesus and I want to be a Christian, but I want to not do it like that.
Like, there is another option. There is another way.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Well, for this book, I took every issue that divides us, you know, from feminism to LGBTQ rights to abortion rights, to poverty, social justice, healthcare policy, guns, sex, hangups, racism, white supremacy, everything that divides us. And I wanted to show how even if you're an atheist, if you're arguing with a Christian fundamentalist or nationalist, Jesus is probably on your side. And, I mean, immigration is one of the most stark areas we can look at right now. Yeah, I don't support open borders or amnesty. That's Ronald Reagan. That's what he did. But of course, we have to have some standards on who comes in the country. No one's saying otherwise.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: But to me, first, there's the hypocrisy, because if they wanted this to end, they would start arresting people who do the hiring. Right. There's a giant help wanted sign at our border, and the Republican Party will never take that help wanted sign down. You make it a one year in jail felony for hiring an undocumented worker. But they don't. They don't go after the employers ever. So that's how we know it's a racist scam. Right? All of it.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Yeah. That's a really good point.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. They will never go out. I mean, Donald Trump's hired them in two different centuries. If we wanted it to stop, we'd lock up the employers. Donald Trump just did a carve out for the agricultural sector because they know our economy would collapse if you got rid of this. We're all part of this hypocrisy. And no, neither party wants to acknowledge it. I mean, like, if you got rid of undocumented workers, a salad would cost 75 bucks. So this is the morality that we have to. And no one wants to talk about it. About it. Right. But it's the criminalization of migrants, calling them illegals.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Yes. Even the terminology.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: It's so racist. They've never called a white lawbreaker an illegal in their life. Right. There's 50,000 undocumented Irish in this country. Between 20 and 50,000. There's no plan to get rid of the undocumented Irish or the undocumented Russians. No. We know what this is about. Right. The majority of people who are undocumented overstay their visas. We don't hear about that. It's just the border crossers. That's all this focus is on. So we know it's a racist scam for power and because some people are terrified of, of white people becoming a minority in 2045, which is going to happen no matter what.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: So I say once you recognize that this is amoral, you don't need to fight these people. You can make them fight God and fight Jesus. Because in the Bible we've all agreed on the God of the Old Testament in the Hebrew scriptures is unambiguous. You must welcome the stranger and you must treat the alien as one of your own and never ever mistreat the alien.
And then his son Jesus shows up and Matthew 25, Judgment of Nations, says individuals and nations. It's very important for Matthew 25, individuals and nations will be judged heaven or hell by how they welcome the stranger. So I like to bring that up and then just say to my right wing friend, why should I listen to you and Donald Trump and reject the direct commandments of God and Jesus? Please make them fight with the Bible. They don't follow it. They'll go to Paul and say, respect the governing authorities. But Paul also tells you to treat immigrants as one of your own. They don't read it. They weaponize and choose passages and lines from books they don't follow or live by to hurt minorities that Jesus commands them to love. Right.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: John, what do you do? I know you talk about this a little bit in your book, but what do you do if you find, you know, a topic or something that does seem to be a little bit more vague or a little bit more general? Because as much as people like to say the Bible is clear, it's not always.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah, like what topics do you refer to?
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, what's vague?
What's not vague?
[00:27:27] Speaker A: I mean, well, to me it comes down to Jesus. Like, what does Jesus say? And, you know, and what is not Jesus? What is what is part of the new covenant that, you know, where Jesus reduces the Ten Commandments to two. I mean, you never see these guys fight to put a Jesus quote on a courthouse wall, do you? Or a schoolhouse Wall. Never, they never fight for Jesus quotes. So say, you know, if, if the religion's named after this guy, I mean then, then what does it mean to follow him? You worshiping him publicly and, and, and gushing over the miracles or actually following his inconvenient teachings? Because he says it, man. It's not easy. You got to pick up your cross and follow him every day. When he says, I came to bring a sword, he's not talking about some, a weapon for bloodshed. He's saying that if you follow my radical teachings, my commandments of love and inclusivity, if you pick up the cross and follow this path I command, you're going to lose something. People are going to not be your friend and your family anymore. You're going to get disowned by people for it. That's the cross you have to bear. But I mean this maga Christianity, they're rebels without a cross. For them it's just me, me, me, me, me, because God likes me better. And that's fundamentalism and that's what's destroying Islam and that's what's destroying Judaism. Then that's what's keeping kids from going to church. I mean we're below 50% in this country for the first time ever for, for worship and being part of a congregation attendance.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: And it's not because people don't like God or Jesus or Santa Claus. It's because they don't like the meanness.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Correct. They don't like the church. They don't like what they're seeing with the Christians. Yeah.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: And I mean, you know, again, I say in the book, I view Jesus the way I view Elvis. I love the guy, but a lot of the fan clubs freak me out. And we see some of these right wing churches that are going more and more right wing because, oh, there's a more racist church down the block and like they're going to die off. I don't want that to happen. But that part of the 20th century is dying off as it is and young people are not interested in this kind of stuff.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: You think about how much of us have talked so many parents and grandparents out of homophobia in the last 30 years. Right.
Young people today don't understand how homophobic we were back in the 20th century. Right. And in 20 years young people aren't going to understand how anti trans you idiots were back in the 20s. Why were you guys so.
Because in so many ways we are getting kinder. I know it's in so many ways we are getting kinder. Yeah. Okay.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Okay. That's hopeful. That's good.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Think about it. I mean, young kids today, they don't understand this homophobia. They don't get it. And try to find people defending Bush and Cheney in the Iraq war today. I mean, what was popular 20 years ago is not popular now, but the decency in love is. And that's why I do really believe there's so much evidence. I saw it as a kid. I mean, the AIDS crisis. Right. Like, I mean, I remember having my best friends from Long island withdraw their pledges from me in the AIDS walk when they found out it went to Gay Men's Health Crisis. It was so moral to hate the gays, even during a plague.
But so many people came out. Gay people demanded their rights. And what do we witness? And what do we witness in this world? The swiftest advancement for civil rights for any oppressed minority in history.
And gay people are an oppressed minority within every minority. Yeah. And it happened, and we witnessed it, and America led the way, and it happened because of a plague.
So, I mean, that's why I believe in the American dream, and that's why I believe in the human race. Always trying to get better in so many ways. We're getting worse, sure. Economically, the middle class, we're all getting screwed. It's, you know, middle class buying power is down from 1968. All that stuff's true. But, like, I do believe we are getting more decent and more loving with each passing generation.
The racism stuff is just gonna. I mean, it's gonna die off what we're witnessing now. Kids are gonna be repelled by this, and there's gonna be kids writing book reports about this cruelty for decades to come.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Well, that lines up with your. I heard you talk about the book as being, like, a reclamation of Christianity. And so that's kind of the same idea, right, of, like, we're gonna be able to be better. The church will be better, and it will be more inclusive and reflective of.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Jesus if it wants to be. Right.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: If it wants to be. I do. I think we want to. I hope we want to be.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: I just think it's smart to be. Because think about it. I mean, like. Like looking out for the less fortunate, not being racist, stewardship of the earth and its resources, trying to get health care to everybody.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Being anti war, being pro a living wage. These are all really popular issues in this country. That poll really well. And they also align really directly with the actual teachings of Jesus. Right. So if churches really care about Surviving and getting the young people come back. Let me tell you, being mean to brown people, that stuff's gonna die off. But and again, look at the Catholics. I mean they're going to need women and gay people a lot more than gay people and women need the church. Being, being nice is good for business.
[00:32:08] Speaker B: Yes.
How do you think we got so off course, John? How do you think we got here to. With. With. With these, you know the.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: You want to start with St. Paul or the Roman Empire? I mean that's where, that's where it happened, right?
[00:32:21] Speaker B: You think it's been going on that long?
[00:32:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I do, I do. Because Jesus dies, Paul takes over. Once Paul takes over, misogyny's back on the menu. Paul's hang ups are all in his letters. 300 years after Paul dies, Council of Nicaea decides what the scripture is. And suddenly Paul's letters about scripture are scripture.
Yes. So people now can use Paul talking about God to say that Paul's directly speaking for God. So Paul's teachings are. Paul's hang ups are just as good as Jesus's love.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Roman Empire again, like they took over and suddenly it's no longer this Jewish sect about love and non violence. Now it's a conquering religion. And let's go beat up some pagans because they're so bad. God likes us better.
And so we see it to this day. That's the whole history of the movement. And to me it's like, and you know, I get accused of being anti Christian 40 times a day and I'm not, I'm anti hypocrite because Jesus taught me the pleasure of calling out pious hypocrites. And you'll be amazed at how good it feels. I'm really pro the actual teachings of Jesus and I'd love to see America try to do it as policy because we had under Biden's first year, I mean Biden's first two years he had like Christian capitalism. He spent so much money on the poor and middle class and look what happened. We had the lowest rate of childhood poverty in our country's history in 2021, which proves we can do that if we want it. And America recovered from inflation better than any of our G7 capitalist allies because we poured the money not into the rich people like we're doing again now, but into the folks who need it so they'd go out and spend it and stimulate local economies, helping the poor doing the things Jesus said. It's also really smart economics.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's great. I mean, it is, there is, there is always going to be an overlap. Right. Of like church and state. And if we start implementing these things, it does actually have a benefit for.
[00:34:15] Speaker A: You're right. But the government, the government shouldn't be in the business of religion. That's never going to. The government being Christian. What's going to make it happen is people bringing the teachings of Jesus in their heart when they go into the voting booth.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: And instead of saying, well, Jesus told us to help us to help the people privately, not the government. So I'm going to vote against policies that'll help the poor. I'm going to vote against policies that'll help the hungry, and I'm going to vote against health care because these lazy people need to get out there and work. Well, yeah, come on.
These people, they worship Jesus, but they reject him in the voting booth. And they say, you know what? I'm going to vote to be meaner to immigrants. I'm going to vote to make it easier for the rich. I'm going to vote to make it harder for the poor.
These Christians, they think Jesus wants us to help the poor by killing any government programs that help the poor. Yeah. Medicaid takes here a 90 million low income and disabled people. It's actually a government program Jesus would be proud of. And the loudest Christians in our government are fighting now to throw 20 million people off of it. And the media can't even talk about the Jesus element to any of this. Yeah, they're not going through the media's terrified works.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Right. Like we can believe and we can, we can, we can quote, unquote, love all people, but if we don't actionably love them, it doesn't actually matter.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: The passive thoughts and prayers.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: Yes, no, thank you. With your thoughts and prayers. You can keep them if you're not going to do anything else.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: Like, and James, the brother of Jesus calls that out too. It's totally empty, like passive, hoping that someone will take care of it. That's not me. Right. That's the opposite of Jesus's whole ministry is direct action.
You know, he did, he didn't sell the loaves and fishes. He gave them away. He didn't, he didn't ask a leper for a copay. It's direct action. Right. Now you received without payment, now give without payment. Yeah, that's it. This whole notion that like, somehow we have to pray that through divine providence and, and the prosperity gospel that the money will trickle down and someone somewhere will come up with a solution. To poverty. It's the opposite of what Jesus says. And, and it's the. And his brother James is even better on the subject than he is. Faith. But, you know, Jesus said, keep my commandments. Right? So faith without works is dead. Right? Right. Yeah.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Have your belief and then show again. They'll know you are my followers. By the way, you love other people. Not when you say you love other people, but when you show that you love other people by the way that you vote and the way that you live and the choices you make and the words that you use and all of these things.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Look, God bless Mr. Kirk and his family. I had my tussles with him. He did not like me. But I just hear him extolled as this ultimate Christian. And I go to Turning Point USA's website all the time. I don't see anything about how we help the poor. Yeah, there's nothing in the right wing manosphere about how to help the sick, how to welcome the stranger, how to be kinder. There's no Jesus there. It's not about Christ's teachings. It's about conservative Christian power.
That's it. So we, we have to challenge this with love. We can't hate them back. And, and believe me, when you start talking scripture to people who've never been challenged on scripture, they will get really angry with you.
But the fact is, this has been allowed to fester. I mean, we had slavery because enough Christians were like, no, it's cool. We had segregation because enough Christians are like, no, no, the Bible says it's cool somewhere. And the media didn't get on their case.
And we know the media is not going to ever ask, you know, excuse me, Senator, where does Jesus drive the gay wedding cakes out of the temple? The media is never going to say, where does your holy book say this? And the Democratic Party, for whatever reason, is terrified to touch faith. So it, it's got to be us. It's got to be us convincing these right wing Christians in our families and workplaces that hate is not a Christian value.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: How do you do that, John, for the people that are listening? Because I know it is so easy to get all up in our righteous anger, right, and be like, we want to be mad about this because it leads us to action and all of these things. But how do we fight hate with love when the fiery passion inside of us sometimes, you know, wants to take over?
[00:38:07] Speaker A: Yeah, well, again, that's why I wrote the book, because the fiery passion will get you out of bed in the morning. It's not going to help you win arguments. You've got to know the scripture going into it. And again, this is going to be person by person, family by family. And I don't believe you can actually convince that many people who are in a cult. Right? If you're believing that Donald Trump is a Christian and you're calling this a Christian movement after the racist lies about Haitians eating pets and seeing cops beaten for a lie on the cap, it's a cult. You're probably, probably not going to reach these people. And the only thing Trump and Jesus have in common is that they both hung around hookers and used ghostwriters. That's really it.
So I find asking questions does it. But again, being civil with them, you will probably have to model turning the other cheek because they will get vicious. These great ask them what your favorite beatitude is and you'll see how angry they can get.
But again, even if you can't reach them, they may appreciate that you try to reach them. If you get them to agree on a few core facts.
Right, they might like 90% of abortions take place in the first trimester. The majority of women who get abortions are moms. 59% of women who get abortions have a religious affiliation. The Bible never condemns abortion. God, Jesus, Moses, the prophets, Elijah, Paul, never mention it. There is no penalty for terminating a pregnancy. Get them to acknowledge that. In Exodus 21, God acknowledges that a fetus is property and a woman's life has more value in his eye than a fetus. And in Numbers 5, God gives rather gruesome abortion tips for unfaithful pregnant wives. And in Genesis, when Tamar is pregnant by Judah and they think it's from prostitution and they want to burn her alive because they don't consider a fetus to be a person and life begins with first breath. And that's why in Jesus's religion, abortion's not banned. They're legal and free in Israel right now.
Get them to agree on a few basic facts and then say, show me where Jesus comes out against abortion and I'll show you where he comes out against the death penalty. Again, not saying that Jesus is pro abortion, but for 45 years they've gotten Christians to vote against everything Jesus talked about by focusing on this thing that Jesus never talks about. So I'm not saying it's pro abortion, but they have been suckered into prioritizing something that isn't even in the Bible and rejecting the direct commandments of Christ. So it's like even if you don't win them over. You'll win over the bystanders, the other people at the Thanksgiving dinner, because you'll be the calm, relaxed one who knows what the Bible really says. You're not getting angry, you're not fighting, and you're showing that love is the way to go. And trying to dress up cruelty as piety is against the ministry of Jesus. Sorry. Atheists can do this very easily.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah, atheists can do this.
[00:40:51] Speaker A: They can. I mean, a lot of atheists know the Bible better than a lot of believers. And, you know, for atheists, in many cases, you may live with these people and they might be the family you still love. And calling them superstitious bigots isn't going to reach them. So, you know, ask questions. Again, you probably won't reach them, but they may appreciate that you tried and just get them to agree on a few facts. Don't call names. Ask questions.
Why do you go to Leviticus instead of the Gospels? Why does Paul's word here matter more than Jesus's? You know, why are you weaponizing something from the Old Testament and ignoring the new covenant of Jesus?
You know, it's like, it's, it's, it's not really that hard once you get the hang of it. And if you already know Scriptures really well, it can be quite fun.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
What would you say, John, to the conservative Christians maybe, who are listening and feel like, well, they're probably not listening to this.
[00:41:45] Speaker A: They're very. By this point, they've hung up. Yes. But if conservative friends still listening, I admire you. You. If you're a conservative and you sat through this much holy crap, you are my hero. Thank you for your patience.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: We're giving you your serious.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: What would you say in conversation then? If people listening are in conversation with other conservative Christians who say, like, hey, you're attacking my faith?
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: I'd say no, you said that's not what you're trying to do.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: Not at all.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: How are they supposed to know if they're the, you know, the good conservative Christians or, Or the fun. How do they know if they're the fundamentalists, the good conservative Christians? How do we.
How do we navigate that?
[00:42:20] Speaker A: What is your. What does your church fight for?
Does your church fight for the things Jesus talked about, or does your church preach superiority over service? Does your church teach that you're better than everybody else because you're here?
I mean, if your church is not telling you to love your enemies, but is telling you who your enemies are, you're not really, in a church.
So it's not attacking Christianity to call out hypocrisy. And if they're going to stand in our house and use the First Amendment to spread lies about the gospel, we have a First Amendment right to ask them questions and see if they really mean it or even know what they're talking about. And most of these folks, as you know, haven't read it all that well and they're counting on you not having read it.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so great.
Well, I know you, you talk about, you have lots of tools in your book for conversation and we've talked about it a little bit to help us engage, you know, the quote unquote Bible claimers. Is there another tip you've said, you know, ask questions and know the scripture.
Do you have like a best way that you like to research and feel confident in being prepared with scripture if people are listening right now? Like, I don't actually know the Bible that well.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, well, that's why I wrote the book, because I took, I mean, I've been debate, having these debates for many, many years. So I took every conservative argument on everything from the death penalty to abortion to, to cutting foreign aid to cutting social services for the poor. And I show why they're really not in line with Jesus. So I mean, I find that when in doubt, you know, just, just go back to love and go back to compassion. And don't worry if you don't win every argument because it's not really about winning. It's about, you know, building better understanding with your family or your co workers.
It's not about humiliating them or owning them in a debate either.
It's about pushing back against the narrative. And just remember that, you know, if you're pushing back against authoritarian Christianity, like I said a few minutes ago, you're on the side of a lot of good people in history who have pushed back with the words of Christ against these revoltingly fake Christians with a, you know, with a, with a cross and a heart full of hate. I mean, I like to say these people hide behind a giant, shiny gold cross to take a dump on the gospels. And it's great that they're all pious in public about how deeply Christian they are, but what do you fight for? Exactly. You know, if, if, if you're, if you're not fighting for anything Jesus said, but you're fighting for stuff that's the opposite of what Jesus said. Maybe it's time you get a new name for your group so that you know that that's it. I mean Christianity is a movement of love, not exclusion.
So yeah, I think just, just don't let yourself hate, don't let yourself hate the person you're debating because anger makes us stupid and hate makes us stupid it. And that's a path you walk. I'm not saying read this book and you'll be able to do it right away. I'm saying as we try to go through life not hating our opponents but also fighting for the things Jesus talked about. It's not something you download and learn instantly. It's a path that we all have to get better at. And for me, writing the book helped me in many ways be more patient and get better stock of how I feel about each of these issues and, and where Jesus comes down. But again, like if you're trying to criminalize abortion, which Jesus never mentioned because you're so Christian, but you love executions, which Jesus actually condemned.
I don't know why I'm obliged to take your claims of piety seriously.
[00:45:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we have to, we have to see our own biases. We have to see our own hypocrisy. I mean really, that's, we all have it, right, but it's in humility, being able to see it, accept it and then grow. That's what's, honestly, that's what blows my mind is that's what faith in Christianity is all about is transformation, becoming more like Jesus. Not because we're ever going to arrive to the day where we're like, yeah, it's just about trying to grow and get there.
[00:46:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And we're gonna screw up, we're gonna fail and, and that's part of it. And that's Jesus's whole thing. Like he's really not interested in condemning people. He. The only sins that Jesus gets furious about, our hypocrisy, I mean that's what makes him the angriest. You know, whenever he's with one of these slut shamed women, he never, I mean the Samaritan woman at the well, the weeping woman in Simon the Pharisee's house, he doesn't care what they did. He doesn't care why society is demeaning these women and slut shaming them. He's not interested in humiliating with the details. He's just like, oh, you feel bad, listen, do better and you're cool. Like that's it. Like, like it's.
But this is fundamentalism. The more right wing any religion is, doesn't matter. Islam, Christianity, I find, and I mention this in the book they have the same five things in common. All fundamentalists, women are always second class citizens.
Is, I mean Hinduism go any religion. The more extreme conservative women. Oh God does. God just likes men more. The men who wrote our holy books know that the sex hang ups. The more conservative your religion is, the more women and gay people. Sex is just for procreation. You know, violence is okay if my side does it. I mean all the fundamentalists know that they're on God's side. So if you're opposing me, you represent Satan. God's not going to be angry with me killing Satan's demons on earth.
And there's always a focus on punishment over healing, right? Jesus is the opposite. When is Jesus into punishing people? People?
When does Jesus ever punish people? He tells off the Pharisees because they punish people. But he's all about, he's all about healing and forgiveness and get up off your knees and stop crying and go do good deeds. You have great potential as a human. Stop feeling crappy about yourself and, and finally all fundamentalists have this penchant for victimhood, this, this persecution narrative that I've been so oppressed, my people have been so oppressed in history that I'm allowed to oppress others now. And we see this happen on the far right of all major religions. The overwhelming majority of liberal and moderate Christians, Muslims and Jews are getting along just fine right now in cities and families and communities and businesses and schools around the world. They're being groovy and they're not getting the headlines. It's always, always the fundamentalist bigots who make the world so interesting. Cause all the violence, oppress all the women, do all the homophobia. The atheists say religion's responsible for Allah. No, the fundamentalists of all religions are responsible for it. And they tend to be the only ones you see on tv.
So you know, for me it's like choose which side you want to be on and what kind of world you want to have. And if you're using religion to put somebody down, you're probably not using it, right?
[00:49:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's like Anne Lamott, I know she did a endorsement for your book.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: And you know, did she ever.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: That lady, you know, you've created God in your image when he hates the same people you do. And so it's that same like you're going to justify your unchrist like or antichrist behavior when you can say no, no, no God, but God's cool with it when we do it for him.
[00:49:23] Speaker A: This is how Trump Got the evangelicals to vote. He didn't promise to do Christ's word. He didn't promise to live a Christ like life and governed by the Gospels. He played up the persecution narrative and said, you people have been under siege for so long.
When I'm in power, you'll be on top. Big league. He promised them earthly power. He promised them cultural domination. He said, I'll put you first. He promised them the opposite of what Jesus commands.
And the right wing Christians went for it.
Yeah, because again, it's a lot easier to worship Jesus and follow his teachings.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: Amen. Yes, yes. It's so much easier to just claim something than to actually live it out for the people that I think would be tempted to maybe fall into despair. Right. Of listening to the MAGA or the right wing, like the very, very far fundamentalists and go, well, this is just the where the church is now. This is just where Christianity is now.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:20] Speaker B: I feel like just because they're the loudest doesn't mean that they're the biggest or have the most control or power. Do you think that's true or do you think this is like a massive movement that we really need to be scared of?
[00:50:30] Speaker A: I think there's more of us, but divide and conquer works and they've got us demoralized. I mean, it's always been the Christ followers and their allies. Right. Like we have got to get back into alliances between progressive and moderate Christians with atheists, with Jews, with Muslims, with everybody to push back the batshit crazy Christians. That's always been the only thing that worked. You see pictures of Dr. King with rabbis and atheists on his coalition. I mean, and people who didn't agree with nonviolence, but they made a coalition anyway.
And that's what we have to do because there are more of us. Christian nationalism, it's about a third of us, right. People who are either Christian nationalists or identify with some of the principles, yet they make up 2/3 of the Supreme Court. But again, if we can push Democrats in the media to ask tougher follow up questions I ask all the time. My Trump callers on Sirius xm, please give me a teaching of Christ that your movement fights for. Ever. Number one, I get is abortion. And I'm like, that's not a teaching of Christ, man. Number two, I get strong border.
And I'm like, christ commands us to welcome the stranger.
A wall is the opposite of a bridge. Number three, this is true.
He moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem. And I'm like, okay, Jesus never mentions the United States or where our embassy should be in the year 33 A.D. it didn't come up. So they don't know the book. They don't know it. So, I mean, this is a generational thing. It's going to take a long time. But I do believe, based on what I've seen with, you know, Christian love, killing homophobia, that. That we can do great things in this country and in this world.
[00:52:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. John, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them today?
[00:52:17] Speaker A: Oh, just. Just, you know, I mean, love people. That's it. Like. And if you're scared because things are tough and we're watching this fascism and troops in the street and the prices going up from tariffs and the Epstein files never going away and this hostility, then, you know, find someone who's more scared than you and be strong for them. That's the best way to be strong in scary times. And when you're feeling uncertain, find someone who's feeling more uncertain than you and be strong for them. And that's the way to do it. You know, Jesus said, as he thinks, so shall ye be. And I do believe that. So if you're thinking fear and domination and everyone's my enemy, then that's what you're going to manifest. And if you think, no, I'm going to go out there and even if it's just smiling at the people you make eye contact with, that's a blessing. Yeah, but, you know, and if your church is mean and preaching superiority over service, maybe your church is working at a soup kitchen on Sundays. Maybe your church is doing animal rescue. Maybe your church is going picking up garbage in a public park. Maybe for a while your church can be communion with God and service rather than being in a congregation that doesn't really want you for who you are.
If your church is preaching meanness, it's okay. Sometimes the best thing you can do is change your mind about religion and go deeper. It is not a sin to outgrow the church you were raised in. The opposite of faith is uncertainty.
I mean, the opposite of faith isn't doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty. And these smug people who have. Who know everything.
I trust the people who are always seeking the truth. The ones who claim they have it tend to cause the problems.
[00:53:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen. Well, John, that is. That was so good and such a hopeful way to end.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: I want to come to your church now. I want to come to your church. Oh, my God, let's go.
[00:54:00] Speaker B: Listen, I've said so much of what you've said today. I'm like, I've preached in a sermon that America was not in the Bible. We just finished a whole series on James lined up.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: So weirdly, like, perfectly for the last five years.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: Your social media is, your social media is so inspiring. I mean, you're, you're the real deal. So it's really an honor to, to come here and drag your show down to my level. So thank you. It's such a pleasure.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much. We'll link up the book. Hopefully by the time this airs, it will be available. If not, people can order it and they'll get it.
[00:54:29] Speaker A: You can get it. You can get the Kindle, you can get the audiobook now. And they, they've already done a second printing because they're all. Are that many of us. No one believed it. And now we're going to have 100,000 copies in print because this message is getting out there and it's not me. It's the fact that there are so many people who are sick of this meeting. So I'm just. This is my contribution to them and to your wonderful audience. So thank you.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: I hope you feel hopeful and inspired even as we covered topics that can lead to discomfort. John's whole message is that we don't have to let these things divide us. We don't have to let the hot button issues distract us from what matters most, which is bringing the love of Jesus to all people, no matter who they are, where they're from, what they claim, or how they vote. Jesus gospel was always one of love and never one of hate. And we can reclaim that by living it out even, and especially when it's not so easy. I, I would love to hear your feedback and get your suggestions on other people you'd like to hear from on this show. Go to the Instagram post that will go up this week for this episode on my feed at KristenMachlerYoung. Until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
