Peter Mutabazi: Love Does Not Conquer All

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Peter Mudabazzi. But you might know him as the foster dad, Flipper. In the span of about a decade, Peter has welcomed over 40 children into his home and learned a lot of lessons along the way. In his first book, now I Am Known, peter tells his story of living on the streets of Kampala, Uganda, and how God used what he experienced there to truly transform his life. In his second book, Love Does Not Conquer all, he shares the surprising lessons he's learned as a foster parent. Peter's here today to talk about all of it and to help us understand how we as a church can support the people who find themselves in a system that they never asked to be a part of. Peter, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Well, thank you for having me here. Truly a joy to be with you. [00:01:12] Speaker B: I'm so glad to have you. I know we were texting over the summer. It's hard being a working mom and a working dad, trying to coordinate schedules. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Yes. With six kids. Yes. It's impossible to just run through the day. [00:01:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine. And we're going to get into. We're definitely going to get into how you do do all of the things that you do, but I want our listeners to get to know you a little bit. So I thought we would do a fun little Q and A just to kind of get started. You. Besides having fostered over 40 kids, which is incredible, you've also become kind of a social media dad celebrity. So if our listeners were required to watch one of your reels or one of your videos, which one would you pick? [00:01:56] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, there's so. There's so many. I think maybe my kids try my first, you know, food for the very, very first time. You know, they're like, I don't know if I'm going to survive here. Yeah. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Do your kids like making content with you? [00:02:15] Speaker A: Always? Yes. They come with ideas, and they're the ones who come, you know, kind of do it, so. Which is always a joy. [00:02:21] Speaker B: I love that. I wondered how much input they had or if they were just like, here we go again, dad. [00:02:27] Speaker A: No, they say them, you know, they go watch things. They're like, dad, we should do this. I'm like, okay, put it on the list. And these are. That's how we do it. Yes. [00:02:34] Speaker B: And it's something bonding. It's something Fun that you guys can do together, right? [00:02:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. And my kids don't have social media, so I think they see themselves in our social media. It's what they enjoy because they, you know, I don't know, they. They just enjoy being part of the family social media more than they do it on their own, which is just fun. Yeah, yeah. [00:02:51] Speaker B: You're providing family for them and introducing them to your. Your village, as you always talk to us about. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Right. And you know, also my kids, people have grown. The people that follow us have grown up with them, you know, so Anthony was 11. You know, he's. He's 19 now, so it's like that's what he knows that, you know, the same comments and people. So in some way, I think they feel this is. This is like part of our house, part of our village in a way. Yeah. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Do you ever have a battle with them about, you know, making content for social media, but them not having social media? [00:03:23] Speaker A: No, you know. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Oh, that's good. [00:03:24] Speaker A: No, they, you know. No, not really. Maybe sometimes they're like, today I'm not feeling it, so I'm not doing it. I'm like, okay, maybe tomorrow done. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, but do they ever wish they had their own accounts? Is it that. Is there that conflict of like, we get to make it, but we don't have it? You know, they have them. Oh, they do. [00:03:43] Speaker A: Okay. My two. My two adults, they have them, but they just enjoy. Again, I don't know. They enjoy our people, you know, that's. Yeah, I think. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Yes, that's good. Well, what. Is something surprising that people might. Might be like, oh, well, I didn't expect that about being, you know, a dad influencer on social media. [00:04:03] Speaker A: You know, I think, you know, foster is. Is most time, you know, there's just so much negative about false care, you know, so when they get really see the joy, the fun to have, my kids are like, I wait, your kids are normal? Like, yes, they are normal in a way. You know, I think sometimes people are shocked that they are normal kids because I think they've had so much stories about, you know, the bad. About false care. They usually don't associate with positive in a way. So seeing my kids being, you know, having fun and doing things that like, wow, they can be. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah. Healthy, loved children that are thriving in life for sure. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Yes. You've met them, you know, you know how they. [00:04:44] Speaker B: I have, I have. We still have. Listen, the last time we were together at Claudia's, I think baby shower, my daughters and your kids were taking photos of what? We still have those in their bedrooms. So your kids faces are still living in my kids bedrooms, which is. [00:04:59] Speaker A: There you go. There you go. Yes. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Well, with all those kids, what's the weirdest thing that you found in your couch cushions? [00:05:07] Speaker A: Oh, oh gosh. You know, like, like half, half apple that has been eaten and has been there for a week, not just in there for a week and half. Open by apple. [00:05:21] Speaker B: Yep, yep. All the gross stuff about having children. Right. Okay, well, Claudia, I know Claudia worked with you for a while and so she did give me a little behind the scenes. She said, ask Peter if he ever gets weird. Surprising DMs from women. [00:05:39] Speaker A: I cut those every day, I think. Every day. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Really? [00:05:42] Speaker A: Every about 50 a day. That's being honest. [00:05:45] Speaker B: And they're trying to like come in and be. Be your wife, Be the mom to these kids, Correct? [00:05:50] Speaker A: Yes. They're like, you know, I can come and babysit or I can come and just be a mom. I can come and cook. Whatever you need, I'll be there. [00:05:57] Speaker B: What do you do you even respond? [00:06:00] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, you know, they are your village. Usually you respond, you know, I say, I wish I could. And sometimes they're in Brazil, they're in Uganda, they're in Kenya, they're in the Philippines. I'm like, if I could, yes, I would bring you over so you can help. [00:06:14] Speaker B: Oh, that's so funny. Well, you did, you did mention, you know, busy schedule and you do a lot of things, I imagine with all of the different kids. You've got therapies and court appointments and making videos and media requests and all of these things. How do you actually manage doing all of this as a single dad? [00:06:33] Speaker A: So for me, I allocated days. So there are days that I don't do things, you know, and days I do things. So weekends I cannot do anything because I have my kids 24, 7. Yeah, during school time it's a little bit easier because they go to school, you know, from 8:30 until at least 3:00pm so in that, you know, in that I can do so much I can do. I'm doing a podcast with you, you know, if CNN or who knows, wants to talk to, I can. And sometimes there are some who are willing to talk to me or work with me once the kids go to bed. And usually I like that, you know, so the kids in bed. I've done all that I need to do and now I have two hours that can spare to do something with someone. And that's how I manage. But my kids come first in A way. [00:07:15] Speaker B: That's great. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. We also don't create content every day. We create content maybe once every 10 to 15 days, so we create enough to carry us through the entire week. [00:07:27] Speaker B: That's smart. Yeah, that's smart. Do you also enlist? Like, do you have. I know I've seen you cooking. I've seen you doing these things. Are there other people that come along and help, or do you really bring the kids in to kind of help take care of things around the house as well? [00:07:43] Speaker A: The kids, you know, again, our kids, I want to equip them. I don't want to empower them, you know, but one day, if they go to live on their own, they know how to make a meal, they know how to clean. So we always do it. As a farmer, my kids, you know, when it comes to the kitchen, they love to participate. They love to come up with ideas. Anthony this weekend cooked. What did he cook? A chicken Alfredo. So we had to go buy it. And then, you know, he's the one to look up for all the recipes and then come and prepare it. And it's always a joy to see them just really excited that they made a meal and their siblings are loving it, in a way. Yes. [00:08:17] Speaker B: That's great. Well, Peter, why don't you. I want to get to your book and all of the things that you're doing, but will you tell our listeners a little bit about your own childhood and growing up? [00:08:29] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. As you can tell, my accent is from Charlotte, North Carolina. I usually tell people, like, when you come to North Carolina, this is how I speak. [00:08:39] Speaker B: They're like, everyone's outside. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Exactly. It's a queen city. Come on. Well, I'm from Uganda. I grew up in a small little village where life was really miserable. You know, grew up in a place where I had to go fetch water three to four miles away, twice a day. Twice a day. You know, grew up in a home where I had to help my mom to grow food because we can only eat what we grew. We couldn't afford to buy food outside. You know, grew up in a home where no one told you to dream. You know, think about at the age of three, you go fetch water. You know, at age of four and five, you can make a meal for your siblings. You babysit and help mom in the kitchen. But there's no time to be a child. There is no time to see the glimpse of hope in so many ways. So that that was my life. You know, think about this way. If a mom cannot feed you, how do they Tell you dream, you know? Yeah. And that was my mom. And that's all we knew. Misery. And it wasn't just us, but everyone around you that was their lifestyle. So there wasn't a place to see a glimpse of hope. Like it wasn't there at all. You know, at age of four, you know, I realized that not only was I poor, but my father was also abusive in every way, shape form you can imagine. And not just to me, but to my mom as well. So as a kid, I think I. The hardest job or the hardest abuser was watching your mom who loves you so much, being abused. But you cannot protect her in a way, you know. So for me, I didn't have hope outside, neither did I have hope inside our home. So for me, hoping was lying to yourself to be hopeful, as that's a lie that I don't want to believe in, you know. So at age of 10, I ran away. I ran away not because I was looking for a better future, you know, I think I ran away because I wanted to die. But die in the hands of a stranger and not give my father an opportunity to bury me because I felt that that would give him joy, you know. So I ran away. Never been 20 miles away. And I went 500 kilometers away and became a street kid in Kampala. And that was the only life I knew. Miserable everywhere shape form you could imagine. You know, there's nothing in the United States to compare street life in a third world country, you know, you don't even. You don't even have stray animals to compare with, you know. And that was me for five years until I met a stranger who changed my life and put me in school. And I excelled. Went to school in Uganda, went to school in England. And that's how I came to United States. Through the kindness of a stranger I was trying to steal from. He didn't see a thief, he didn't see a smelling teenager. I saw a little boy with potential and said, you know what, I want to know you more, but I want to invest in you as well. And that's what changed my life. [00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah. How did you survive for five years on the street? [00:11:24] Speaker A: So as three kids we, we slept in the sewer. Why the sewer? Because the sewer smelled so bad that no other people can go. So for us it was a safe place to protection. Yes. We also slept close to where they threw garbage, you know, like in the garbage dump because most people didn't give us food, but they would throw it in the garbage. So we had to run there before the dogs got there, you know, so that was a life where you, you survived by stealing. You know, we didn't steal money, you know, but most people didn't make a dollar. But people used us as cheap labor. So we way you use me, I'll also find a way to get a meal out of you. [00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, fair. How many? You said us, how many, how many kids roughly? Was there just a couple of you? Were there a lot of you, like. [00:12:06] Speaker A: 3,000 kids on the streets of Kampala? What? Yes. You know, but we stay in groups of. Would be. We stay in groups of our age group, you know, so like in my age group, I could have, you know, 20, 10, 12, 13 year olds, because we're safer. The older kids abused us or used us. So we try to stay within, you know. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Age group. Yeah. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Okay. So it was common. This wasn't just like an idea that you had to just, I'm going to escape my, my home life and my family life. Like this is, was a reality. [00:12:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:39] Speaker B: A lot of people. [00:12:40] Speaker A: Right. And, and you didn't, you know, you didn't hope for tomorrow because some of the kids died because they ate something poisonous or they were run over by a car or, you know, something happened. So you saw that. So there wasn't like you, you hoped some one day you get out of it. No, it was. You hoped one day you, you know, you lose your life. And, and that's. Right. [00:12:59] Speaker B: That seemed like the only ending. Yeah. Well, what, at what point, did you, at what point did you find faith? Like you said, you had no hope. There was no glimpse of hope. When you were on the street, at what point did you find kind of find some of that hope? [00:13:18] Speaker A: So once he put him in college, he also brought me in. Once he put him in school, he also brought me into his home. So I go to see a family that they loved each other. To me, at first it was, I felt it was fake. You know, he didn't yell. He. I thought I always waited for him to beat up his family, but he didn't. I was like, something is weird about this guy. You know, like something is weird. His kindness also just ticked me off because he was so kind that it just made me angry. Like, why are you so kind? Why are you so nice? Because I had never experienced that also as a street kid, for everyone who was kind was also abusive. So for us, kindness came with abuse. So I waited for him to, you know, abuse me, but he never came. And that's kind of how I found out that he was a believer. And he invited me to church, you know, and I began to really hear the gospel, but I didn't like the church and I didn't like the gospel. Here's why. My father was Roman Catholic, so he was very, very religious, but at the same time very abusive. So for me, I associated religion with abuse because I saw my dad, but also too, like I had grown up. I was 19, 18. So for me, I wanted to go back to my father and break his leg. I can do something, you know, mean, you know, but the Bible just was, was. It wasn't kind of working from. The Bible says, forgive even those who've wronged you. I'm like, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to do that. So because of hatred towards my father, I just didn't become a believer because I didn't want to give away that hatred. Like, I'm not, you know, until I was in Rwanda during the genocide in 1994, I went to rescue children. I was 19 to rescue children. On my first day, I saw more than 4,000 dead bodies. So I knew I was going to die. But the question was, if I die, where will I go? And that's how I became a believer, because I knew my life was over and I didn't want to take the anger with me, you know. And once I said, you know what? I'm going to die, but I'd rather forgive my father. I felt like I lost £40 in an instant. I bet. And that's how I became a believer. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And then what did you do with that forgiveness? Did your father know? [00:15:27] Speaker A: No, he did not know. You know, later, I think, you know, at 20, 22, you know, I just went back and, you know, just told him, you know, I forgive you, you know, and for me, I think it was for myself, like, I wanted to let it go. Even if he had to say, oh, no, like, to me, I forgive you, you know. And also, I wasn't looking for a father, you know, I think I was wanted to forgive just as forgive anyone who had me on the streets. Just like any other minds that I wanted to give it away and say, you know what? I. I will also. I felt like me carrying my anger with me, he was still winning, you know. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:16:02] Speaker A: So I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not gonna let you in some way affect my future by bringing you all the baggage around with me in my heart. And that helped me to let go knowing that I don't want to still govern my life years later. [00:16:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Breaking that chain, that hold is what, partly what helps us to live in freedom of forgiveness. Right. Do you still keep in touch with the man who kind of rescued you from the streets? [00:16:34] Speaker A: Yes. Most people think he's my biological father because they've been my family. You know, they've traveled to the US to see me, you know? You know, they're the ones I know. Not only did they put me in school, but I became part of their family. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:46] Speaker A: And now I had a place to belong and be, and, you know, that changed my life. [00:16:50] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so great. And then at what point, Peter, did you have, like, this moment where you thought this, I need to somehow help the world. I need to change the world. I mean, you were, you know, helping in Rwanda and I'm sure doing other things, but did you have this kind of moment where you said, I need to make life better for kids so that they don't have the same kind of life that I had? [00:17:13] Speaker A: Great. Yes. You know, again, I adore this man. So much so that I wanted to be like him, you know, and his life was about really helping the most vulnerable. So through his lens, I just saw what. What ticked for him or what how he lives his faith, you know, the sacrificing and giving to others is most important. So for me, because I doubt I adored him and idolize him, then for me, that was just more natural for me to see what he did. I was like, wait, you know, if a stranger can see the best in me, I should do the same. And that's really what drew me, that I wanted to make a difference because he'd showed me what he text, what it means, the sacrifice that comes with it, and I was the recipient of that. [00:17:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And so then you went into foster care. Is that like just the next. The natural step? You just said, hey, this is what I'm going to do. Help us to get connect those dots. [00:18:09] Speaker A: Right. So. So when I arrived in the United States, I really struggled with my faith my first week, you know, and the reason why I struggled was seeing how much food was thrown away, you know, because I had come from a world where people were dying for lack of beans, you know, and seeing how much food was thrown away. And I was like, there's no way I can read the Bible and understand it the way Americans do, you know, But I think in my own self, you know, I feel like God loves Americans, then he loves my people, that how can they have so much food? But yet my people Die for lack of beans, you know, so before I could, you know, in some way, that was the first start. But then he also. I got to be rebuked, you know. Luke 12:48. How much is given, much required that I realized that I was the wealthiest man on the planet, you know, that I had a family that I didn't have. I had hope that I didn't have before, and now I live in the wealthiest country on the planet. Like, I am the most fortunate kid, you know? So then I got to know about Fourskia, and I go to visit people who are wealthy, and I realized, like, wait, how can you be so wealthy and you have 10,000 square footage, but there's a. You know, there's a kid in your neighborhood that have a. Have no place to stay. Like, how do you. Like, how do you reconcile the two, you know? And I think for me, I didn't want to be a listener the gospel, but I wanted to be a listener on the door that I could not have an extra bedroom and sit. Just say, I'm blessed to have a room, but there's a kid in the neighborhood that have nowhere to go. Like, I just couldn't, couldn't, couldn't just put those together. Of being a believer, living my faith every day, but not doing something, you know, is what changed my life. But also, too, I didn't know they would allow me because I had never seen a single dad who was fostering, you know. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:52] Speaker A: So for me, I went into. To mentor teenagers. I said, you know, what if they cannot allow me to foster, but at least I can mentor. So that's when I wanted. And the social work said, hey, you know, what are you here for? I said, I would like to mentor teenagers. She said, have you ever thought of being a foster? I said, yes, I do, but I'm not qualified. I said, why? I said, I'm single. She's like, Peter, 30% of our foster parents are single. You can be. Literally, it was on a Monday, and I signed up on a Thursday. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Oh, you did? Yeah. I'm surprised to hear that 30% are single. I think it's great. I just. I. I think in my own mind, I also thought it was mandated that you have to be two parents or, you know, check all these certain boxes. [00:20:36] Speaker A: Wow. It's amazing when we believe the lie. Like, we don't. And for me, it was even deeper. You know, I come from Uganda. I had never seen a black person who was adapting in Uganda. You know, I've traveled all over the world. I Never seen a black person who was adopting in Ethiopia or anywhere. You know, they were always married and they were always Caucasian. So I thought, you know, you believe the lie. You believe, like I. You have to look certain way to be a, for, you know, to be an adaptive dad or a force brand. And that real realizing that was a lie. I mean, yes, I just jumped in because I always wanted to make a difference. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So it really was your faith, I mean, your experience and then your faith of like, hey, I'm going to. I mean it's, it's the whole book of James. Right. Like we're not just going to say the thing, we're going to actually do and live out what we claim to believe. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. And for me, someone had done that for me. So I had a tangible way of looking back and said he, I wasn't a good kid. There was nothing in me that was, was cool, sexy. For him to say, you know, I'm gonna have this kid. Zero. I was the opposite troublemaker, no boundaries. But yet for him, you know, I will always ask like, why, why do you, why do you not let me go? Like, why don't you just kick me out? I said. And he says, peter, you gift to me and you teach me what Christ looks like. I'm like, what do you mean? You know, you know, but it was then that I really understood that, you know, he died. He would say he died for me. For me to love you is just a privilege. [00:22:07] Speaker B: I was like, oh, that is so beautiful. That's so lovely. So now, Peter, you've had 47 kids, 47 kids come through your home. Will you give people a little bit of a picture of like, what does that look like? You know, you get the call, how long are they with you? What is that? What's required of you? We give just a little picture of what that even looks like in the day to day, right? [00:22:35] Speaker A: So. So kids come in first care in so many different ways, you know. And as a first parent, when a child comes in first care, they are scrambled, just calling, looking who can take the child. You know, usually you get a phone call at three in the morning or late at night or in the evening. So when I get a phone call, they get to say, hey, there are two kids who need a home and we need it for 24 hours. So then I go to my kids and say, hey, you know, I always involve my kids, like, you know, I just got a phone call, here's the need, what do you think? And they'll say, well, you know, let's think about it. So they ask me questions. I say this. Who is this is the child. This is where they're coming from. And usually if the kids say yes, then I call the social workers. Usually they give me. They give you, like, 20 minutes, you know, Then I call back and say, hey, I think we can take the child. Usually by the time they say so, they are already on the way coming to you, you know, Right. For the kids, when we receive them, like, we don't know anything about them. You get to know the child as soon as you open that door, but most of the time, you really don't know. So they ask either for 24 hours or they ask for a weekend, or they ask for, hey, for whole summer, or they say permanence. Permanence, meaning that this child is going to be in your home for more than a year if you take this child. So you cannot already, you know, you cannot know. But first year is so strange, and so I cannot describe it on this call. But sometimes the child, you think for the weekend, that ones stay forever. The ones you think they are permanent staying with you are the ones that go back home or go to kinship, you know, a week later or a month later. [00:24:10] Speaker B: And reunification really always is the goal of foster care. Is that correct? [00:24:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. Because the kids were brought from home or from, you know, unsafe places, but just so they can find a safe place for them. And that means we want to give an opportunity for mom and dad to get better so the kids can go back. If they can't, we also want to look into kinship. Kinship means a guardian, a friend, a grandpa, an aunt, someone who's close to them that can say, you know what, I'll take in the child. But while we as first parents are holding the child with us as they search for who's who, you know, where this child's gonna go. And most of there's no. Any other place to go. [00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You become their safe space, whether that's for holding ground or however long your. Your job effectively is to love them and make sure that they're safe and protected. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah. What is one of the bigger, biggest cultural differences maybe that you have to navigate? You know, being African, being from Uganda while raising these, like, southern white American children. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Is everything, you know? You know, I think for me, the first difficulty was maybe the food, because I grew up where I could never throw the food, you know, And I think watching my kids, you know, can have a bite on an apple and say, yeah, I don't like, it. I'm like, I don't. I don't say they've never been to, you know, in Africa or experience what I experienced, but in my heart, I'm saying, you have no idea. [00:25:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:39] Speaker A: You know, you just took one spoon and you want to throw the food and. And I had to really learn how to really not, you know, not. Not bring those negative feelings towards my children, but find a way on how to educate them. Like, hey, you know, maybe we can only serve this much, but if we need more, come back for more, in a way. [00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So they don't take those apples and just stick them down in the couch. [00:26:03] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. And the other shocking part for me maybe, was I come from a communal world, you know, where if a neighbor dies, the neighbor will take the kids. Like, that's just how we live our lives. We have no false care system. We're just there for one another. I think the shocking part was lack of that in United States. Like, I can. I can be, you know, even in my church world. Like, I can be in church and I go and they get to see my kids come and go, but no one ever says, hey, how can we help? You know, I think those were shocking moments for me to say, oh, wow, all their parents are struggling. Like, I wish someone reached out to them. Like, I wish someone was there for mom and dad to say, you're struggling, but how can we come alongside so you don't lose your kids? Because by the time they come into false care, it's a little bit too late. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. How do you navigate when you bring these. These children in? How do you navigate living out your faith? You know fully who you are and what you believe? If the child that's been placed with you, maybe their biological family does not share those same beliefs. [00:27:07] Speaker A: So, you know, the folks here, we have. They have a policy where I say, you know, so especially 13 and below, you know, that they leave a life you live, so they're coming to your home. They gotta take. Take all the values, the principles that you. You live. So that means going to church is part of what you do. They go to church, and kids love to go to church, make new friends. You know, they never, never really resist that, you know, but also to how we, we, we, we. How I really help them navigate their trauma, you know, to use the scripture or to use my faith as a way, you know, God loves us. That's how we need to love one another. Hitting someone is just not nice in a way, you know, So I use Those principles for if they are 13 and above, I really want them to make that choice. Would you like to come to church? You know, and the less. The less I push it, the more they will come, you know, because they're coming from a place where they're always told what to do, where to go, and they didn't like that. So for me, usually I say they're old enough to stay home, but also they're old enough to make that choice, to say, would you like to come to church? And if you don't want to, it's fine, absolutely. But I'll still love you as who you are, not who I want you to be. [00:28:17] Speaker B: And I imagine like. Like you when you were initially welcomed in, you know, there's probably a little resistance there of if they're not used to having choice, they're probably like, why are you asking me this? You know, are you about to control or force me? But I would think that they would have initially. You're ultimately respond better. [00:28:38] Speaker A: Right. Well. [00:28:39] Speaker B: To having that option. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Well, I would say most. In my experience, most of my kids really don't do well with religion because if, you know, they have this question of, if God loves me, why would he take my mom away, why my mom will not come back? And some have even gone to church and they have told them, if you pray hard, your mom will come back. I know. And they never came back. So you're like, oh, you know, or they use religion to rep. You know, so in some way that it really damages the child. And usually that's the last place they want to go. They don't want to go there. And I don't. Never. Unless, as I said, unless they're below 13, they will come. But by 13, no. [00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So you really do, Peter, you do so much more work. I mean, I think all foster parents, but, you know, talking to you and your experience, you're really doing so much work more, which already is enough to bring them in and protect them and care for them, but you're also helping them heal. You are helping them unlearn even a toxic religion or. I mean, how do you. How do you find the stamina? How do you find the soul, care for yourself? You're doing a lot of heavy things. [00:29:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. You know, I even have kids who are from Caucasian families. And they come. They're like, you know, I have so much stories I've had about you. Not me as a person, but you as a. A race that they try to navigate. And for me, and one thing that this man did for me. He lived faithfully. He didn't have to tell you the gospel, but you just knew this man loves God, is kind, and I learned that from him. I can tell people every day about faith, but if I don't live it, it still will go the other way. And in my life, I find living it is better in a way to live that life of, of letting my life be a testimony of what I believe and being there for my kids. Yes, difficulty when it comes to trauma, but also their parents as well. Sometimes their parents don't like you, but when you pursue them and you show, hey, I want you to have your kids, how can I help? And most of them, they're like, wow, wait, no one has ever done that to me. And in that way we get to bridge the gap and we get to be friends in a way because I want them to get better and have their kids. Yes, it is. You know, it is. Sometimes they think we are sponsoring kids, but we're also fostering their families as well. You know, they have to meet them, they have to navigate the, oh, all the legal and all the false care policies and all that, that we get to come along and say, we know it's tough, but you can do it, you can do it. So yes, I get to do lots of things. [00:31:25] Speaker B: Yes, you are actually in relationship with their family, the biological families as well, not just the children. [00:31:31] Speaker A: For me, I provide that way that I pursue the parents, you know, because those, you know, here's why. So as a street kid, I would hear people say what a mother would let their kids be on the streets. But no one understood my mom, Mama was being abused as much as I was abused. She couldn't protect me. You know, I live in a society where she was a third class citizen and there's nothing she could do. And I think even in the United States, the same way that you're a mom, you have four kids and you don't have a job and you're struggling day by day, where do you get the resource? You know, and most of them, that's how they lose their kids. Because there's no any other way to. And for me to be judgmental against them, I feel like that's unproductive. But also too, again, because of my faith, I just want to leave it and not see them as villains, but see them as God loves them and be the first one to love them. And I want to be an uncle that when my kids go back to their parents, I still stay in their lives in a way, you know, and always that works perfectly well, you know, but by loving their families, the kids get to see how much you love them because you love the one person they don't have and want to love. [00:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That is such a fantastic perspective too, of helping these families to see and the children to see. Hey, maybe society as a whole has biases or judgment or expectations or assumptions even about your family and the situation that you're in, but that doesn't make it true. And so I feel like you can break that and let them know, like, hey, just because a majority of people might think this way, it doesn't mean that's true about you or your parents. And we. You get to see them through the eyes of Jesus, really. [00:33:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:18] Speaker B: So beautiful. [00:33:19] Speaker A: Yes. Changing the narratives of people is really what changes them, you know? You know, sometimes I would drive, four hour drive to go so I can have visitation and they'll ask me why. I say, because I don't want you to miss out that visitation. And that will take you back to court because you miss a decision because I know you, you don't have driver's license and you, you have to struggle to find someone, you know, and in those moments where they'll say, oh, and I, I just, you're an awesome dad. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:50] Speaker A: You know, and even some say, you know, I, I cannot do. But would you be the one to, to adopt my children? And for me, that adaption is coming from them. It's being blessed by them. Yes, the state has to process the whole thing, but from the get go, the parents say, I cannot, but also believe that you're gonna keep me in touch with my children, that I would want you to be their forever dad. And usually to me, that's what I love. Because, you know, you're gonna make that, bridge that gap for the kids, but also for the parents. They get to know you care for. [00:34:23] Speaker B: Them that much, and the trust is there. What the highest compliment, Peter. I hope this conversation is enlightening as it gives you a new perspective into the foster care system. I also hope it's not the last time that you stop to consider the experiences of other people. So I'm linking up two additional podcast episodes in the show Notes. For any of you who want to understand even more, we're going all the way Back to episode 75 with Lovelyn Palm, who will give you a different perspective on adoption as. As well as providing you with language, both things to say and not to say to blended families, her episode will also provide new things for you. To consider when going into a developing country for adoption, travel, or a mission trip. I'm also linking up episode 130 with Dr. Terrence Lester. This conversation will help you grow in compassion and empathy as you unlearn stigmas and assumptions that you likely have about about the parents and families who find themselves struggling to care for their children. Because seeing people through the eyes of Jesus is the first necessary step before we can even consider coming alongside them. Well, I have your second book right here. I'm in the middle of reading it, and it is called Love does not conquer all. Tell us about the lesson behind that title. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Well, you know, when I became a false parents, I said, I'm gonna love on my kids and I'm gonna do whatever, anything I said, you know, so, so. So as soon as I think the first child who came in, he looked in my eyes and called me the B word. You know, he's like, you B word. Go. Give me some water. I was like, oh, okay. [00:36:13] Speaker B: We have some work to do here. [00:36:15] Speaker A: You know, and it wasn't because they hated me, you know, that's where they came from. And they thought that then order whatever they want to drink. And in those moments, I felt so small, you know, because here I am with all my hugs. I'm gonna love these channels. Realize, like, not so fast. Absolutely. And I realized that there's so much I had to work on myself. Like, I had to revisit my own childhood, like, to make sure I don't bring how I was parented into my new parenting lifestyle, you know, Like, I had to really move from here to here to be there for my children, you know, that it takes so much to learn, so much to be a false parent, that you can't just. Love is not enough, that you have to work hard, you know, think about. You have a kid who tells you they hate you, they don't like you every day, and you still have to love them, you know, are they doing so to hurt you? No, absolutely. But our kids are going through so much and are wondering, you know, where's my mom? Why would I be with a stranger like Christian? If I said I came to your home, didn't tell you where I'm going, and I dragged you to some county somewhere and I say, you're gonna live there. Yeah. Are you gonna be happy? Oh, I love this home. You know these people. No. You know, you be angry. I love my home. It was comfortable the way I know it. Why would you bring me to strange and so doing? Yeah, it's Loving someone who doesn't like you and loving someone who does not want your love. And I think that's what I really wanted, to help false friends. Because that's, that's how I came in. Because I thought, oh, just love, you know, And I realized that I had to do so much for me in order to treat, be the best friends I could be. So that's why I said, you know, love doesn't conquer all. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's a very catchy title because I saw it and I was like, like, wait, what, what is another lesson in here that maybe you were surprised to learn or that was hard for you to learn as a foster parent? [00:38:18] Speaker A: Yes. You know, I think this chapter there, it's called loving a child as who they are rather than who I want them to be. To me that was really super cool. So I come from Africa. The only way to success, the only way, the only way hope you have is education, because there's no resource. So if you're educated, you can make it, you can survive. So then I have that, that kind of perspective in life. So coming to United States where education is amazing, I have three degrees, you know, I, I, you know. But then you have kids who, that isn't their big deal, you know, so think about. So that's where you come from with this expectation. And then you're paying a kid who like, eh, not for me. Whoa, whoa. That, that, that was really, really difficult for me. And then I realized that, hey, actually that's projecting in my own dreams, that's projecting what worked for me towards my child. You know, And I knew that was wrong, that I needed to love my kids. You know, I have kids who, you know, they don't go to college, but they are amazing kids. They are working so hard, they're good at other things than education. And for me, I would have lost or valued them less because I had projected my own standard of what successful is to my children. And that really helped me to love my children. But more to parent your child as who they are rather than who I want them to be. But also that took away the pressure, the feeling I felt the feeling I'm not meeting the standard. That feeling just. I think it's a stress that we parents wear for our kids that does it need to be that I knew, hey, you know, I'm gonna love my kids, I'm gonna whoever they are, you know, in a way that suits them. And that, that was the best lesson I can say. [00:40:08] Speaker B: Oh, well, that sounds like a lesson that all people need to learn. Not just foster parents, not just parents. I feel like the world would be better off if all of us could say, hey, I'm gonna love you for who you are instead of who I want you to be. That would revolution a lot. Revolutionize the world. [00:40:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. Marriage, too. Everything. I think sometimes we get to meet. You know, you get a partner and you. You love them as who they are, but then you marry them. You're like, but can you change this? But you. But you feel like, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, this person was this way. And I think when we love them as who they are, we get to love them in. In. I don't know, we. The expectations go away. You know, that projection of what we think it should be goes away, and then we get to love them just. Just as who they are. [00:40:54] Speaker B: Who they are. Yeah. Peter, what's something that people tend to maybe oversimplify when it comes to the foster system? [00:41:04] Speaker A: Simplify, I would say adoption, you know? [00:41:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:10] Speaker A: I think most people, they've seen us as false parents, also adapt. And sometimes they're like, yeah, I want to be a false parent so I can adapt. And you're like, like, it doesn't work that way. You know, I adopted my 11th child, Anthony. It was my 11th child. And then I adapted my 30, 31 and 32 number, you know, so that means the others had to go back home. So if my whole goal was to adapt, like, think about how that would have been difficult for me to even make it to 10, you know? Right. [00:41:44] Speaker B: Heartbreak after heartbreak after heartbreak, you know. [00:41:47] Speaker A: So sometimes I think people confuse the post care as an adoption agency rather than adoption is the last result, you know, and sometimes takes years to get there, or sometimes you even wait for four years, and the last minute they're like, not. So an uncle is coming and they take the child. And so that maybe that's the one thing they simplify, you know, I'm going to be a first parent, so I can adopt kids. And it's not always that way. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:15] Speaker B: We've walked with friends of ours who multiple times did. I mean, they went through, had the child. The child only knew them really as their family because they took the child and they were placed as infants. And then it was like, I mean, in the 11th hour of about to assign the adoption papers that the child was reunified. And I know that that's the goal, and they know that that's the goal. But it was hard walking with them as their church family. You know, it felt like a loss I know at that moment. [00:42:45] Speaker A: And that's a good thing, because attachment is what makes us better parents. Yes, we are willing to love that much, but we get attached. And humanly speaking, it's what our kids need in so many ways. But it leaves you shattered, in pieces, you know, and if that. The goal was wanting adoption, I don't. I think you. You won't. You won't go through two children. You'll go through. You'll be like. Right. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah. It's what makes them fantastic foster parents, actually. So I'm glad that you said that. How can the church, like the church as a whole, be more proactive in supporting vulnerable children and families instead of waiting to react, you know, after the crisis hit? They've already had to be removed from the home. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, don't get me started. [00:43:30] Speaker B: Yeah, come on, let's go. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Oh, church. [00:43:33] Speaker B: You know, give me some practicals. [00:43:35] Speaker A: I live in Mockingbag county. There's. There's about 900 kids in false care, but there's 1300 churches in the same county. You know, sometimes you're like, man, I wish one church can do something. And he's. I know the church is not a farm. Like, I know. You know, a church is just a place we meet and. And get to share the gospel and unite each other and fellowship. It's not a home where they cook and sleep, you know, but for me, I wish. I wish the church, especially when it comes to moms, like, I wish we remove the stigma of. If it's difficult, it's the church to go to. Like you go to church, you know, But I think we've made it so a cool place we go. We dress well, we fellowship, we tell about what God is doing, and then we walk out. But. But the mom was struggling on the other side. They're afraid to come to us to say, I'm struggling. What should I do? You know? And I think if the church could make a few steps backward and say, how do we make someone who's struggling to really. We be the first place to come and say, where should I go? How should I do? You know, and in that way, we really, really get to, you know, once the child come into false care, it's really hard to get them out of the four scare. Yeah. And the moms too. So I wish there was a way that we, especially moms, can see someone struggling and say, you know, how can we help? You know, how can we not judge you? You know, how can we help? And I think judging. And that has caused sometimes mom to say, I, I'm gonna hide my, my problems and I'm not gonna. In one know, and in so doing, by the time we recover or we discover it's a little too late. You know, the other part is, I think the church, if we can come alongside, like, if we can be the wraparound families, you know, we don't have to be force brand, but if we can find one, one family that we can inspire, we can come alongside, I think that will also recreate more families to, to foster because they get to see the example, what the church is doing, you know, and they're like, with that support, I think I can do. Do it. You know, with that, my church coming alongside, I think I have a village that would help me. And I think that's where we false parents fail or we burn out because we don't have people come alongside and really help. But if a church can just one, not two, not three, just one family, you know, and also too, it really heals and brings alongside that family that lost the child. When they see the church really step up, there's a way they really begin to believe that God, you put him in this place. I believe you'll heal me. I believe whatever I'm going through, I'll overcome it. Because I can see the church being a church to my children on the other side. [00:46:14] Speaker B: Yeah. For somebody that's listening, that's like, well, of course, yes, I would be supportive, but I don't know any families like this. I don't know any, you know, parents who are struggling or I don't know any families whose children have been placed in foster care. What, what would be your response to that? [00:46:31] Speaker A: That. So usually, unless it's critical, unless there's an accident and the parents died and the kids have to be. Find a home or severe abuse, you know, those we get to know right away and they come. But sometimes we get to see the signs of, you know, parents struggling, you know, sleeping in the car, moving from one place to the other, kids missing school. So those are a few signs that we can see among our friends that we say, okay, how can I. How can I help? You know, the other part is, I think when you're willing to help, you cannot find a way. You know, for example, like, I wish the church could say, I want to give more to the church so the church can find ways on how we can help those we cannot reach. You know, in a way, they're giving you resources at local church to find ways on how to plug it in. Families that need it, you know, because for us it's is, it's who, you know, it's who's been thinking about false care. That the more we can talk about it and the more we say, hey, by the way, we have resource, the more they come and say, yeah, I've been wanting that, you know. Yeah. The other part is simplifying the needs. So for example. I'll give you an example. For me, I have a family I've never met. They give me a pizza every Thursday. They're in California, but they make sure you arrive. Why? Because for me, on Thursday is visitation day. And that's the most difficult for my children. When the parents don't show up, the emotions are high. When the parents come and then the visit is done, emotions are high, you know, and for me, as a force parent to go back home and make a meal, sometimes it's like, oh, gosh, you know. But then having someone really bring you a pizza, that's all you need. That really takes away so much. The other part is a coffee. Coffee, you know, knowing a false parent or false dad say, you know, I just want to have a coffee with you. And I want to make it a point. Every month I'll have a copy a coffee with you. Not to do anything, not to tell me anything about your children, but just to make sure you're seen hard enough. That's all, you know. And I think it's those little impacts that will truly change the lives of our children and our families to want to do more. If we can find practical ways on how they can truly help. Not just on Christmas, you know. [00:48:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:46] Speaker A: I think Christmas, that's what everyone thinks about, you know, because in Christmas I can't, I can't take all the bags, you know. Right. [00:48:53] Speaker B: You know, you can only take so many gifts. [00:48:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. But also to here's someone. My kids will always have everything they need. But for me, as a first parent, I'm the one most time forgotten. This makes sense. Yes. And I'm the one who's dealing the hard job. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:09] Speaker A: So then if everyone wants to give my kids a backpack, that's cool. But how many can I take? But. But if they think of me as a parent who's about to burn out and struggling, that makes the world to me. You know, if you're there and say, I love playing video games. Peter, you have teenagers. Can we bring them to play video games? Absolutely. Because you become the best mentor to the world. My kids know, you know, I have two daughters. If you can say, Peter, I want to take your daughters for a nail day. Just me. Oh, of course. I'm so lame. What are you doing? Well, you're coming alongside me, but also you inspiring my child to see the kindness one of the stranger. Be there for my kids. You see how we, you know, it's, it. We don't have to sell our homes, we don't have to give money. It's just little things that really impact the children. To say, Peter, I know you probably need to go do errands, but I can do them for you. Just give me the list. [00:50:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:05] Speaker A: And I'll get them for you. Or to say, you know, I'll. I'll take your kids. We go to the park while you go get a coffee. You know, there's so many little things. [00:50:14] Speaker B: You can breathe for a minute. [00:50:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, like I'm looking for someone right now. Like someone says, I love doing laundry. Peter, once a month I'll come to you. I'll be like, how much money can I pay you? [00:50:26] Speaker B: You know, let us know, guys, if you love doing laundry, I'll connect you to Peter. That could be a great blessing. [00:50:31] Speaker A: Please. Yes. [00:50:33] Speaker B: And I really love the point too, that you said, you know, to think of the foster parent, because I, I never, I don't. I mean, you know, besides the family that we know. But even then I would, they would bring in, you know, a baby. And if I have two older daughters, so if they brought in a girl, I was like, I've got baby toys and I've got baby clothes and I have. I always only ever thought of the child. [00:50:56] Speaker A: Exactly. That's what. [00:50:57] Speaker B: I don't think I ever thought of them. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. So for me, my third. So when I began being a false parent the third month, I was like, I can't do this. You know, I, I'm. I'm quitting. And when I shared with my care group on Wednesday, I said, you know, this thing is just. And they sat with me, they say, hey, how can we help? And I gave them the, the list of things I want and they did it for me. So what? Nine years later, I could have given up my first three because they came alongside that 40 something kids have been blessed because the kindness of the people who did that for me does make sense. So in a way, the reason why we have so many kids in Fosky is because we lose so many foster parents, parents. So think about where, if you can support. And that's why I said, it's easier for the church to support a family. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:46] Speaker A: You know, because you're taking care of the adults. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:49] Speaker A: And in that way, they stay longer. Helping kids in false care, in that way they don't burn out. So in a way, you're helping more kids have a home and a safe place to be. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so great. What would you say to someone who feels maybe too broken or unqualified to make a difference in someone else's life? [00:52:09] Speaker A: That's me. Broken, Broken, helpless. I mean, think of people who. I mean, the abuse that I had to endure, that place that I had to see, in a way, to me, has helped me have empathy because I know, you know, you know, when my kids hoard a food, I'm not like, oh, my gosh, my food is gonna smell. Well, I was the best thief, I can tell you, you know? Yeah. But for me to be in those places, to say my kids are. And stealing my kids is worried in his head the food will not be there anymore. So for me to say that's how I reacted and have empathy to this little one, you know, so actually, the fears I think sometimes we're afraid of because we had a hard childhood or we had. Didn't have a good dad, that we will be this exact those people we are not. God didn't make me my dad. No, he made me, Peter, you know, and he's helped me overcome that. But somehow leaning when I go back to what my life was, it helps me to have empathy because I get to see what my kids are going through. So if you're out there wondering, I didn't have a good childhood, I don't think I would be a good dad. I promise you, actually, you'll be able to have empathy because you know it better than most people do. You know what it means to not be checked on, to feel unwanted, to feel unloved? You know what it means every day feeling, what did I do wrong? [00:53:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:29] Speaker A: No, that you'd be able to. To show that to a child that. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Needed to relate to the stigma and help break that cycle. [00:53:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Well, Peter, you've given us lots of practicals already, which I so appreciate, but the last question I have for you is the same question that I ask everybody. So how? Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. You know, we don't believe that we just go to a church building on Sunday, but we are called to be the church in our lives. How can people listening become the church to kids and families in the foster care system? [00:54:02] Speaker A: Right. So this man who took me in became the church to me, you know, when, you know, I didn't believe, you know, I think the idea of God the Father for me, just because I had a so bad a dad, you know, and every male I met was so bad, the idea of God the Father was, wait, what? You know, but he showed it to me because now I believe if this man can be this example one be good, then my God the Father is sharing is true, you know, so I had something to relate to in order to believe. And I think, you know, we can share the gospel every day. We can hear the gospel. I think we get to practice that to the people sometimes that are different from us or that are in a different economic status than our or in a place of the struggle that we get to practice really what God has shared us. And I think that's, that's the best way to be at church. You know, when we hear, you know, we know we love football, we love watching the game, but we get to see the practice they did all week, all month, displayed in that. And I think the same way as Christians, we get to hear the gospel, we get to read it every day, you know, and that's practice. But now we have to truly act on it to see how God will use us in a way that we never thought, but it has to come from in our brain to a human being, to another human being in a way. Is it your family that you've been struggling but you want to forgive them? Is it your co worker that sometimes nags you, but this time you say, you know what? No, I'm not going to let that really hinder the relationship that I want to have with this person, you know, is it your spouse? But sometimes, you know that you say, God, you brought this man in my life or this wife in my life, you know, and I'm gonna just do what you want me to do, not what I would like to do. [00:55:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Amen. That'll preach. That'll preach. Peter, thank you so much for being here. I really know that this conversation is going to help people just to consider foster care and the foster system differently. Maybe more than just at Christmas, hopefully. I just thank you so much for being here. We'll link up your books and and some other resources in the show. Notes for people to listen to and check out as well. [00:56:14] Speaker A: Thank you. I truly appreciate it. [00:56:20] Speaker B: You can make a difference in someone's life today. It doesn't take an excess of time, money or resources, just a willingness to create a little margin, reach out and provide some care. I'm praying that God makes it clear who that person is for you and that you'll have the courage to follow through as Holy Spirit leads. As always, if this episode blessed you in any way, I would love for you to share it on social media and write a review letting people know why you listen. Your word of mouth helps people who need this encouragement find it more than any of my own social media promotion can do, and I'm incredibly grateful when you take the time to review and comment. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.