Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is author, Bible teacher, ministry coach, right here in my own city of Charlotte. Right, Lisa Whittle. While Lisa has written multiple books on how to involve God in varying aspects of your humanity, she's here today to talk about her latest study, Body and Soul, a biblical look at the whole person God created you to be. Lisa and I both end up sharing some things in this episode that we hadn't previously shared behind a microphone. So I really hope the authenticity of this conversation makes you feel seen. If it would encourage someone else who may have intrusive thoughts about their body as well, please share this episode with them. Don't worry about how they'll receive it or what their reaction might be. If God brings someone to mind. As you listen, you can trust that Holy Spirit. Nudging.
Okay, here it is. My chat with Lisa Whittle.
Hello, Lisa. Welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Hi, Kristen. It's good to see you.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: It's good to see you, too. I know we were just chatting about we live in the same city, but, like, still literally never see each other outside of Instagram.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: I know Charlotte's big, and we might as well live in different states because we're on different sides of the city, right?
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Seriously. Yeah, I think we are. I think we are. Well, I'm glad to see you. Thank you for making time.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah, you too.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: To be here with us. Listen, I'm going to jump right into it because you just recorded an entire podcast season with Candace Cameron.
All of us, like millennials and elder millennials, want to know what it was like to hang out with D.J. tanner.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Oh, my word. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.
It was such a joy. And it was a real privilege to get to do that season with her.
I didn't really know what to expect. Kristin, honestly, this is going to sound terrible, but I have never watched a single episode of any of her shows. Never?
Yes. Still never.
And so I didn't go in with, like, stars in my Eyes. I didn't have that fandom. Of course I knew who she was. She had been on my show before. We had had a good rapport when I had interviewed her. And so, you know, we were following each other on social media and so forth. That's how the show came to be doing a podcast with her. But.
But we weren't friends, really. And so, you know, you never know if you're going to have a connection with someone or not. You don't know how that chemistry is going to go.
And so was great. And when we sat down, we had planned out the shows, of course, but, you know, when you sit down, you don't know exactly how it's going to go. And we really had a wonderful.
Just connection, but also it was a robust conversation. We didn't agree on everything, but I'm good with that, and she was good with it. I really respect Candace because Candace had a lot of. She had a lot of skin in the game. You know, when she has a platform like that and she's talking about the body in that way, that's to be respected. She could have talked about a lot of things that people would have loved, like, you know, what's your exercise routine? And like, you know, tell me about your nutritional habits and all those things. And, you know, we got into some questions about that, but that was not what she wanted to talk about. And so, you know, for you and I, when we do a podcast, we, you know, we just kind of go along with it, and it's great. We have our clips that we pick out, but media picks up on her clips. And so this is kind of funny. You'll enjoy this. I've never shared this, but I grew up reading People magazine. That was like, my. My whole thing. I loved it. And early on, when I was on her show, some things came out in People magazine that she had said. And she texted me, and she said, lisa, you're in People magazine. And it was so funny for. Because of course, I was just mentioned as the sidekick on her show. It was not about me at all. It was about.
But it was so funny for me because I'm like, I grew up reading People magazine. I'm appearing in People magazine. It was amazing. Very full circle. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Listen, if you ripped that page out and framed it and, like, put in your office, I would not blame you.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: I did not do that. But, you know, hey, keep a copy.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: Of it at least.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: The first time I got. I was mentioned in a book. It wasn't even my first endorsement, but it was just, like, in the acknowledgments, and I was like, oh, my gosh, my name's in a book.
Yeah, no, I get it.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: I get it.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Well, I did listen to some of your podcasts. I haven't listened to the whole season yet that you did with Candace, and you guys really did I listened to the one that you talked about, like, Botox and surgeries, the one where you really went all in. And I, both of you, I just was like, I really appreciated, like I said, the way that you didn't necessarily have to agree on things, but you respected each other and just were really honest. Candace was really honest. And, yeah, it was a fantastic episode. So thank you for doing that.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Thanks. Yeah.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Well, the reason that she did season 11 of her podcast really was about, like, bodies, is because you wrote a study called Body and Soul, and this is not your first book, but tell us about this study.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah, this is a Bible study, actually. And, you know, Bible studies are really different from books which I've enjoyed writing as well. But it was important that this be a Bible study, in my view, because of the fact that, you know, any transformation that's ever happened in my life has come from the word of God. And so looking at it in that way was critical. But I have to say, Kristen, this was never even on my radar to write to begin with.
Never something I thought I would write, never wanted to write it. You know, when you've had a history of everything from eating disorders and just negative view of your body, the real complicated relationship with your body, which certainly I would. I would frame my. My relationship with my body as complicated in. In the past. And, you know, I would say there's still some of that to this day.
That's not something that you say, oh, let me just go ahead and address this because I want to dive right in.
It really came from a frustration with the conversation that I was hearing, not only in secular culture, but I think church culture as well, that I felt was inept. To be honest, I think it's been inept. I think it's also been somewhat damaging in that it just did not do justice to what I had heard from my conversations with people all over as I've traveled to speak and in my DMs and, you know, emails of the great grief that we have carried from things that we've been through in our body, things that have happened to us, things that we have made decisions about ourselves and just, I think, our own feelings and thoughts, consuming thoughts for our whole life about our body, and it just didn't do justice to it. And I thought, you know, this conversation is getting us nowhere. We're more exhausted than ever, and we are grieving in such a way that telling us to just love our bodies and accept our bodies, it's just not enough.
And so I think that frustration led Me to do my own podcast series called your body deserves more than hype.
I'm not a person that likes hype in general. I guess maybe I should say it like this. I don't like hollow hype. If something is worth being hyped, I will hype it. But for me, there's so many things that are hollow hype. And to me, the conversation about our bodies in general has been hollow. And I personally needed a transformation process where I no longer live to change what I saw in the mirror, but to change the way I saw myself.
And that led me to really write body and soul.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Did you have a turning point moment, Lisa? Because I think you. You said your relationship with your body is complicated, and I think probably most people can agree and understand that. Did you have a turning point moment where you were like, okay, I can actually talk about this out loud? Not only talk about it out loud, but, like, put it in a study. Because I know that there are women, myself included, who have tried to talk about their complicated relationship with their body only to be either tried to be fixed, which is, I think, the most common or honestly shamed of, like, well, how dare you talk about it and say that you have this when. When Comparatively, it's not that.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Did you have this, like, moment?
[00:09:23] Speaker A: I think that's a great question, one I've not been asked. Actually. I did not have a moment. Actually, I wouldn't say I had a mom. I think before I knew it, I was open to it because I had been talking about it gradually and I didn't even realize it. Kristin. But I think as I began to look back, I saw places. Oh, I talked about it a little there and I opened the door a little bit there. And I was honest about it a little bit more here. Because again, it's something that I never thought I would actually utter out loud. I never thought I would utter the words out loud. I had an eating disorder. Never, never planned on saying that. Never thought I would get on Candace Cameron Bure and talk about things that people had said to me that wounded me in my body. Never thought I'd share those stories. I'm actually a pretty private person.
And so to me, that didn't feel like one, necessary, two, redemptive in any way or that would be helpful to others because there's so many private things that I don't share because I just feel like if they're not going to help the body of Christ, what's the point?
And so I think there are a lot of things that happen to me in my body. And there are still private things, by the way, that I've never shared, but I just couldn't figure out how to do it. So I think there wasn't a real moment. But I will say that as I began to get into God's word and look at who I really was in my whole personhood, it opened me up in ways to not feel so afraid, to not have that shame piece that I felt so much of my life to be able to get on, you know, such a broad platform and say, you know what? One time when I was in college, actually, this guy flashed me. And now I realize, like, how we go through these weird things as women that seem like no big deal, and yet then we go to college class and just sit there as if we weren't violated with our eyes, you know what I'm saying? Like, whatever the spectrum is of what has happened to someone else, we as women and men, by the way, because men also have violations, we just carry on with our day like everything is normal after we've been violated in some way against our body, against our souls.
And it changes who we are as an embodied person. And I think I had the courage to talk about it more as I began to gain courage from the word of God about who I really am. It just changed me profoundly.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm really grateful for your voice, you know, raising two daughters who are right now in a very vulnerable, I guess I would say, stage. And my oldest is in middle school, so we're starting to see her, like, question. And it's very tricky to hear things come out of my mouth, and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Like, this is what was said to me. And now I know why I have a complicated relationship with my body because of it and trying to backpedal. And I know Jess Connolly, too, has a book, what was hers called this is a Good Body?
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Yes, something like that.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: So I just thank you for these words. They become tools that I can then use for the next generation.
But you propose the idea of a whole body theology in Body and Soul. So what does that mean to you? What does that look like?
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just a phrase that I kind of came up with to. To frame this idea of a biblical belief system of God's creation of us in our entire personhood, body and soul.
Because I felt like the idea of going through six weeks of a look through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation really needed some type of frame.
And because it is a framework, it is A foundational piece by which to build your whole mentality of your body upon.
And, you know, the interesting thing, Kristin, is I realized this as I was, you know, letting the Lord inform me and from the word of God and also just pulling from numerous scholars and professors and all kinds of people in the faith community. And I mean, it was. It was incredible.
But when I.
When I was making this study and sort of this idea of whole body theology, I realized, like, Lisa, you've had a belief system about all manner of things your whole life. From, you know, a belief system about marriage to a belief system about your kids schooling, to a belief system about, you know, where you live, to neighborhoods to. I mean, it doesn't have to be deep. Right. We have belief systems about all kinds of things. Politics. Right. We have belief systems about everything.
And yet the one thing that was missing for me was a really a belief system about my body.
It was all, for me, about, yeah, but what size am I? Yeah, but like, what kind of eating am I doing now? And it was very, like, hit or miss. It was very haphazard. It was very just like, oh, the wind is blowing this way. Let me do this diet. Oh, the wind is blowing that way. Let me be on this, you know, workout plan.
And it's crazy if you think about it, because I'm much more well educated and thought out than that. Or I like to think I am, but I'm like, I have no belief system at all about my body.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: And it makes no real sense. And so I think the funny thing is, is like, after I released this, or was people found out I was writing, it's like people thought I was coming for their Botox or they thought I was coming for their gym memberships.
Nothing further from the truth. Yeah, I don't care really what you do, actually. I've got enough to worry about with me.
But what I think is, because we don't have this foundational piece, most of us have skipped it. The church is not discipleship, has not discipled. Well, with this, we haven't even really thought to do it, which is kind of crazy. I've been a lifer of the church. My dad was a pastor. Never in my life was I taught to have any kind of belief system about my body. So I didn't have one.
So I skipped this first foundational piece and just went right to just be thin.
And so as a result, I just didn't know what I didn't know. And so what I want to encourage people to do is have a belief system, then go figure out if you're going to count your macros or what kind of weighted vest you want, but have it built on something for goodness sake, because you do that with everything else in your life, so why not this? Because you are a whole embodied person and you deserve more than that. And God created you for more than that. And so that's what I've attempted to do in the study.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: So what did you and I know read? Read the book, guys. Read the book. But as an overall, like when you went to scripture, did you find, okay, this is the framework for how we should feel about our bodies, what we should believe about our bodies, like biblically.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Well, and let me say this, it's not a book and I'm only, I'm not, I'm only correcting that just because I want people to understand. I don't want them to feel like it's a bait and switch when they get this. It is a study, it's meant to do. And this leads into your question. Honestly, Kristen, it. Lee, it leads into it because it's meant to do for six weeks or however long it takes you. But the suggested is like six week, six weeks for a reason. Because we dive into the different aspects of our embodied self. And the reason that's important, even in the context of your question, is there isn't this one. Aha. Oh, this is it. And I think that is what the, the current thought process is for most of us because we've been conditioned to think in terms of body type topics and like, what is the Holy Grail? What is the golden ticket to letting me lose 30 pounds, like, give me the magic pill. And what I want to say is whole body theology and building a belief system, it's not going to be a one verse thing. That's the problem that we have now. We talk about, you know, your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and we cherry pick that verse out and then we say, okay, well, behavior modification, let me just, you know, not put junk food into my temple. And that's the way that I'm going to go about this life.
No, that's the point here is we have to really understand who we are.
And that is going to take a minute because most of us not only need to learn it, but we've got to unlearn a few things.
So yeah, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're going to just get one verse and all of a sudden the light bulb comes off, comes on. But yet you've had 25 years of body trauma, but one verse is going to fix it. No, I'm going to tell you that you're going to build something in the word of God that is going to actually help you understand who you are. And, you know, don't, don't take my word for it. I think, you know, we have plenty of people that have done this.
And I can tell you from my own perspective, it has changed my life.
It has changed my own life.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: How? Explain that a little bit.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm happy to, for one thing. And I think this is interesting too, because I think, you know, also in terms of change in this world, we're conditioned to optics, right? Like, so the way we, we decide if something works or not is usually by looks. So it's like, okay, if you've lost 20 pounds, then that program must work. So I will try it.
Whole body theology is different. The only thing I can tell you is that the consuming body thoughts that I've had my whole life are not present anymore. Does that mean that I never have a thought? Boy, I would love to be able to fit into those genes. No, there are still times that I will have that. Because most of us want freedom from the human experience.
And there's a difference between having freedom from the human experience and freedom from things that consume you and make you enslaved.
And I was enslaved to consuming thoughts about my body my whole life. That is not happening anymore. There were also many things that I used to not participate in because I was hindered by my insecurities or my feelings about my body that I simply don't do anymore.
And I think a lot of us, if we'll think about the fact that, you know, we don't want to be in pictures, we don't want to, you know, whatever, wear the bathing suit. We don't. All those things a lot of us want to try to talk ourselves into. Well, just wear the bathing suit. You know, we think it's going to be enough if we just rah, rah ourself into that. And I can just tell you that while I don't agree with that type of hollow, what I do agree is that when you have a different viewpoint of an embodied self, your whole embodied self, you will change in those ways for the good. And it will not be temporary because you get a high from posting a picture. It will be permanent because you know who you are and you honor that. But it also changes other things, Kristin, that we probably don't have time to get into. It changes the Way that you carry yourself in a room, it changes the way that you set boundaries. It changes the way you see yourself as a woman.
It changes a lot of things. I've become much more confident in my relationships and in the way that I see my worth. And those things, I think are things that women are looking for in particular their whole lives, but they don't connect it to their whole bodies.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: It changes the way we see other people too.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: I mean, 100%.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: And I don't even just mean in judgment, which is a big one. But like, in general, we can't see other people differently in the imago day of God in them if we don't see it in ourselves first.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: Yes. I love that you brought that up. I think a lot of us want or say we want to honor and respect other human beings, but we don't.
We don't. I'll put a period there. We also don't because we don't see ourselves that way. You know, I think we don't understand the difference between honoring the dignity of humans and agreeing with other people in everything.
But the reason why we can't separate that is because we don't understand that we were all made in the image of God. You would probably be shocked, or maybe not because you're a pastor. You probably wouldn't be shocked.
And how many people don't understand that everyone is made in the image of God? Yeah, like, it's just. It's just that starts in Genesis. So that's why we start there in the study, because it is a baseline of all humanity. And we have to know and believe that for ourselves as we also know and believe that in others. And yes, it will change the way that we treat other human beings.
[00:23:12] Speaker B: Well, and for me, the key was know and believe.
Right. Like it was once for me, really. Which sounds silly, but is when I started digging into the Enneagram. And I know that we've talked Enneagram a little bit in the past.
That was what changed me. Take taking my, like, knowledge of being made in the image of God to actually believing it. And it wasn't just my physical body. It was my personality. It was my, you know, that my communication style, everything. And realizing, oh, not only does God like me like this, but also I get to represent a specific part of him to the world that like, somebody else who looks different and communicates differently and has a different personality does. And it's when we all come together that then we get to actually see the full embodiment of the heart of God and who he is.
[00:23:57] Speaker A: Yeah, the body of Christ is a huge part of whole body theology. I'm. I'm glad you brought that up as well, because a lot of us honor that and don't see that we don't understand how that plays into even our own physical selves. I mean, we. I mean, this is. This is science, but science is informed by the Word. I mean, we.
We have things that we carry in our body. You know, even if you think about the book, the body keeps a score.
We have things that we carry in our body because we have fractures with each other.
And so it's hugely important that we understand how we're supposed to operate in this world using our gifts, which. Our gifts are meant to operate in harmony with other people's gifts, that we aren't meant to do everything ourselves. Because, see, the thing is, whole body theology is not even almost just about what size body we have or the ableness of our body in the sense of how we physically get around in this world. It has to do with our work life, our rest life, our sex life. Like our whole embodied self is absolutely about how we operate in this world as someone who was created in the image of God. And so I think that's a huge piece of this that we don't understand because we are just so busy compartmentalizing and saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, like, what size jeans am I? And that is such a myopic view of a whole created human being. And so we have lived so much of our lives so narrow. And as we live in this narrow space, we see others narrow, we see ourselves narrow, and we operate in such a narrow way that we aren't living up to our full potential. And so it's just hugely important to know who we are.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: I love that you brought up the idea of compartmentalizing, because I think that's how I get actually through life sometimes, is I'm like, okay, now I have to think about my kids. Now I have to think about working out. Now I have to think about what I'm going to eat. Now I have to think about work. Now I have to think about sex. Like, you know, and I do really, like, in order to feel like I'm doing all the things, I have to go from one to one to one to one. And I do wonder. I don't. I don't know what it would be like to live in such a way that it all just felt integrated and not going like, okay, let me check this off so that I can go to the next Thing.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Feels like it'd be a very different lived experience.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Well, I think a schedule is good. Like, part of what you're talking about is living by a schedule. I'm a big believer in that, by the way, Kristen. Like, I have to have my Google calendar boss me and tell me what to do. So I'm believing in that. Even if you have to schedule sex, that's okay at some junctures of life. Right.
But I do think it's like, the view of ourselves in compartmentalizations that I think we get into the most trouble. At least it was for me. And, I mean, I'll give you an example. I think, like, for me, I was always in my work life. I was always like, you know, I can work myself to death. I'm a. I'm a worker. I love to work. I am. I have a high, high productivity.
I have no problem with that. But I would work myself so hard that my body would break down. And that is not a spiritual act. That is not bringing glory to God. If I am breaking down my body while I am producing material that is actually glorifying God. Right. There's. There's a disconnect here. There's a conflict, actually.
I also want to take this a step further. I think it's interesting that we compartmentalize and we say, this is the spiritual part of me. The spiritual part of me is I go to church, I love God. All of this, you know, and this is. This is this part of me. And then this part of me over here is my marriage or, you know, my sex life or whatever the case is. No, the reality is, is that is all your spiritual life.
And I think we, maybe for believers, know this somewhere in our brains, but we focus so much on, let me get my, you know, my life with God, right?
Well, your life with God, getting it right might have to do with something that has nothing to do with your daily quiet time, by the way. It might have to do with the way that you are treating someone in your neighborhood that you've treated poorly. Or it might have to do with the way that you are treating your sex life or whatever. This all is your embodied life, and it is your whole self. And because we've just allowed it to live in compartments, we've not only, you know, kind of justified acts and things that we've done in our life, but we've also lived quite exhausted. And that is part of this whole thing is we are exhausted human beings because each area of our life we're trying to Live a hundred.
But. But like, actually, what about we look at ourselves as a whole person and say, God, my whole life is yours now. Help me live it. Start there and then see what happens.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Live a hundred cohesively as opposed to actually trying to live, like, 900.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:00] Speaker B: All these different areas.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: Lisa, you recently wrote that. You said the study is based on 1 Corinthians 10:31, and that that verse came to you, you know, whatever.
Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God.
What does. And I know you've unpacked this a lot. What does declaring God's glory look like when it comes to our bodies?
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Yeah, this is. This was the whole shift for me right here, Kristen. The entire shift of my life. It's really living Quorum Deo, which is this idea in Latin about our whole lives for his glory. Right. Like our. It's. It becomes our motive for working, out, our motive for eating. Right. Our motive for resting, our motive for working, our motive for having sex, our motive for everything we could possibly think of to do in our embodied life. In your body, everything you do becomes your life for his glory. Now, the reason why this is critical is because it's a shift for most of us.
For most of us, we will quote that verse, but we have no clue what it means. And most of us, it is a shift from let me be a size 4 by the wedding or let me, you know, be fit so I can have guns. Listen, I don't care if it's great to have body goals, it's fine. If you want to run a marathon. All of those things are fine. But I'm just going to tell you, from the perspective of studying the Bible, that is not your biblical reason for what you do in your embodied life. It's just not. If you're a Christian and you really want to live for the glory of God, you. You have biblical reason for what you do in the body that God created you with, and it is to bring God glory. That's. That's it. It's bottom line. It's very simple. I love simple things because I'm a simple person. So just tell it to me simply, well, that's it. It's coram Deo. It's your life for his glory. So what happens with that is then you have a mindset shift, basically. And it says, the way I eat, the motive for the way I move my body, all of it is for the glory of God.
Now, it's hard for us to understand what that looks like in daily life. But I don't think we should make it too complicated. You're still going to move your body in ways that are good.
And you can get experts to tell you what that looks like, that have studied science and all those kinds of things. Exercise, science, all that. You can still understand chemically what you're going through at whatever season of life you're in.
We know facts about rest, we know all of those kinds of things. Right? So get the arsenal of knowledge, but understand that you're doing it not so that you can reach some pinnacle of you, but so that you can live your life for the glory of God.
And I think a lot of us would not only have more success in our body journeys, but we would have more long term success because it's not just about reaching this body goal to look good for the wedding. And then, oh man, I got it. I'm just gonna just go to pot after that. But it is really this long term goal of giving glory to God.
And I mean, you can't be sedentary if that's really your goal because you know that your body will break down. Right? You can't eat junk your whole life because you know that ultimately that is not going to fuel you in this body that God has given you. But it also, you're not going to get into a restrictive lifestyle. I can't have an eating disorder anymore. I can't. It's inconsistent with bringing glory to God in my body. Even if I wanted to, I could, couldn't do it because it's just inconsistent with that. And so I think it's changed the way I work. It's changed the way I see eating.
Does that mean that I am automatically going to lose £50? No. I am in menopause. My body is somewhat stuck. I have yo yo dieted my whole life. I'm trying to get my levels where they need to be. So you might, Kristin, not be able to see it on my body today.
But I can tell you there is an internal process that is working its way out.
And maybe it'll show up, maybe it won't. But I'm okay no matter what because I know what's happening inside.
[00:34:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I really appreciate that you just said that last part because we do, we look at certain body types and we go, oh, they struggle with this. And we look at other body types and go, not only do they not struggle with this, but they're not allowed to.
And I would spend put myself on that side where I Remember once I guest posted on somebody's substack when. And I am in the throes of perimenopause. Like, I hit 40 and my. My doctor was like, your hormones all just left your body. Like, they all just ran away.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: Welcome, Kristin. I'm so sorry that you've joined the club.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: So it's been a couple of years now of trying to, like, find the process and I am on HRT and we have to check my levels and all of these things.
But I remember feeling so. Not like myself, so disconnected from who I was. Not just that my physical body wasn't doing what I had always been able to make it do, but mentally, emotionally. Like, I called my doctor and I was begging her for an antidepressant for the, like, for the first time in my life. And she was like, kristen, it's not chemical for you. It's hormonal.
So, like, I'm not going to give you this medication because it's not going to do anything. We have to, like, figure out your levels. I say all of this to say I shared this publicly for the first time. And the response in general was like, we really were with her until we went and looked at her picture. And then, like, everything that I had said no longer was relevant. Every, like, connection that they had made to me, all of a sudden, instead of being like, oh, we're with you, we feel it got turned into shame and judgment.
And luckily I had gotten to a place already with my own, like, identity and the way that I see myself and God, that I was able to, like, not carry it around and let it go.
But it was one of those weird reminders that it still hurt, you know, where I was like, why am I not allowed to have the same struggle that someone else has?
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: And it, you know, it's. It's one of those things that we've just set up was part of, like, connected to our bodies and the way we look. Certain people are allowed to have certain struggles and they're not always visible. And so I guess that's to my what your point was. We can't always tell what everybody is struggling with or dealing with based off of what we can see in their physical bodies.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's such a great point. I. I learned a really big lesson with this. Actually. One time I was. I guess I was trying to be funny, and I posted a meme this has been some years ago, and it said, like, good morning to everyone except for those who can eat whatever they want and not gain Weight and I thought it was so funny because like obviously that is the plight of so many people.
But you know, we look at food and then gain weight. But a woman DM me and she was like, you know, I know you didn't mean anything by that. But like I have this, you know, I'm going through this thing in my body. I have this medical condition and I would give anything to be able to gain weight. And you know, it, it and it just kind of recalibrated me. And I thought, you know, there is a population of people that are on the other side and I don't wear those shoes. So I don't understand that. But I also want to be mindful of people who are on that side. And I know better, but I also just wasn't thinking, you know. And so it was good for me to remember that before I went into this body study because I think that is something that we don't do very well is wear the other people's shoes. It's one of the reasons why I made it a point to not only on my own show interview disabled scholars but read from, read several books of disabled professors.
Just people in different walks of life.
One of my life heroes is Johnny Eareckson. Todd is taught it anyway, so I've been studying her life for years and learned glean from her, interviewed her multiple times. But those things are so important because I think our languaging even around just able bodiedness is so privileged and people don't like it when I talk about that or say those words. But we say words that we just don't even remember. Guard. And it just gets to the point it's not about people being overly sensitive or policing everything we say. I mean I feel like I say a lot of things that probably other people might take issue with. But I think it's just being a little bit more cognizant that if we are walking around in a body that is able to walk around and freely breathe and all of these things, we are experiencing body privilege. And the Lord really showed me like Lisa, the things that you nitpick even are things that your girlfriend. I talked about this on Candace a bit. But your girlfriend Jen, who went to heaven at the age of 40 because she died of colorectal cancer. I literally sat with her days before she went to heaven. She'd give anything to be able to nitpick the things that you nitpick just simply because it would mean she was alive.
And like, I just think these are things that we take for Granted, as human beings who walk around with bodies that we might not prefer, but that are actually, I mean, they're gifts from God.
And I think this whole conversation is so important to recalibrate us in that way. The way that we talk to ourselves about our body, the way that we look at our body, I think the way that we judge other people, we have no idea what they're going through.
And, you know, I myself, Kristen, I've.
I've often felt like, Lisa, who are you to write this study? I know it's been, you know, obviously Satan who's, you know, really put the accusations out there to me and really kind of come at me and to. As I've written this and as I've talked about it, but it's just been this overwhelming feeling of, like, you know, you should be thinner. If you were thinner, people would listen to you more. And so on the opposite end of the spectrum of, like, you know, you feeling like you were being judged that you couldn't have issues with your body because maybe people thought you were, you know, didn't understand the. Every woman's plight. On the other end of things, I felt like, you know, people judged me because I should have been thinner, because maybe that would show that I had this more in the bag, that I have it more under control. And my whole thing has always been like, you don't know where I am with the Lord. You don't know what I'm dealing with even in my own body or the measures that I've taken or all any of those things. So I think in general, we need to get away from assumption, which is one of the things I hate the very most in life. And this is never more true when our. With our bodies.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
This is such a good conversation. Thank you for your honesty. And just be, you know, just really showing up the way that you are.
I do want to take it one level deeper while I have you.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: So sometimes, and I think this is where you and I, I would say, probably don't fully agree and align on aging or the things that. How we let our bodies age.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: And so sometimes I hear the idea from people that I greatly respect that they've chosen to quote, like, age naturally because they don't want to take the gift of growing older for granted. Like you talked about with your friend Jen, which I completely understand. As someone who would probably be considered to not be aging naturally for any variety of reasons, I would not say that, like, okay, my hair dye or my dysport in my forehead is Me taking for granted the fact that I like get to live long enough to age.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:24] Speaker B: Can you maybe unpack like that idea a little bit? What you think people mean by that? How we can kind of hold this like both and here.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: Yeah. We might agree more than you think. I actually, I actually don't even understand the phrase aging naturally. I don't even really know what that means.
I mean, what does that mean? Like, because to me, aging naturally, what, you're never going to pluck a chin hair? Like, I don't know. I mean, there's such a spectrum here, Kristen. Like, I mean, here's the thing. I dye my roots. So if I didn't dye my roots, my roots would be gray, my head would be gray. Right. So, so I think there's a real spectrum here. And so here's, I'll tell you a few things personally and then I'll just get into a 30,000 foot view. I feel like for me, why have I chosen to dye my roots but I'm not going to get Botox? Well, there's a couple reasons for that. I mean, for me, I like my brown hair, I like my long hair. I could change those things at this point, but both of them I've had for 50 years. Right. So for me, with all of the chemical changes that are going on in my body right now, the last thing I want to do is make another major change to myself because I am trying to navigate the changes in my body that are all so raw.
So now I'm going to chop all my hair off and let my hair go gray. No, thank you. Emotionally, I know that that would send me problem probably to a place I don't want to go. So I know that that's unwise for me to make all of those, those changes at one time because I am navigating the change of menopause. So but for me, Botox, it's not because I just want to prove that I, you know, can age naturally. Again, I don't even know understand what that means because I think you don't get braces. That's to me even like, that's like a natural I'm good at. We, we all got braces, a lot of us. So sure, I don't even think it makes sense to even have that phrase personally.
But.
And I don't think I've ever used that phrase. If I have, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason why I don't get Botox, there are a couple of reasons. One major reason is I know myself and I know that it for me would become enslaving. I would not be able to stop.
And I don't want anything else in my life to make my life more complicated. I have enough things that I have to deal with with the Lord, then have to have another form of maintenance. I'm actually a fairly low maintenance person in life. I don't like to get my nails done. I really don't even like to get my hair done. So I don't really like maintenance. So for me, I don't want to have to have something I've got to continue to keep up with.
And I do want to believe that I can accept myself after a lifetime of not accepting myself. I want to believe that I can accept myself the way that I am, no matter what.
And that's difficult. Sometimes I wish that I could do this other thing over here. But I think I've made a choice based on what I feel will be more freedom for me in the long run. And that to me, is what this is about. Kristen yeah, I think this should never be a shame conversation. And I believe this is a conversation that is about permissibility versus profitability. Profitability. I do believe this is a First Corinthians conversation.
And when I'm talking about Paul's letters there, there's obviously two mentions. I'm talking about really the first in Corinthians 1 Corinthians 6:12, which is, I think that's right. Yes. The context about him talking about the personal conduct and purity that he's addressing at the time, where really he's saying there's freedom in Christ. There's also things that you can do that will lead to enslavement. And I think that when you're talking about enslave versus liberate, not all choices are spiritually healthy or edifying. Doesn't mean they're sinful.
It just means are they going to be healthy for you or edifying? Because remember, we're a whole person.
We're not just skin, we're not just wrinkles. We're not just any of that. We are a whole person. So you have to regard what is this going to do to me emotionally and how is this going to affect the way that I ultimately have security or insecurity because I can't compartmentalize this. And for too long we looked at issues like Botox and things like that as a skin deep issue. Well, it's about how I look. So this is the challenge that I would put to your Listeners. Okay, first of all, I don't care if you get Botox or not, and I'm not going to sit in judgment over it. Honestly, I don't care. Yeah.
I think what we typically ask is, why not prove to me, if there's not a spirit, if there's not a biblical reason, then why shouldn't I do it? I think that's the wrong question to ask. I think the question we should be asking is, why? Why do I want to do it? Why is this important to me? And I think when we ask that question, then we can really say, not only search my heart. Oh, God. Which should be our first response with any behavior that we do in our embodied self, but also, like, ask ourselves, honestly, in a real private way, why do I want this? Why do I want to do it?
Instead of why not ask why?
[00:48:10] Speaker B: Okay, I like it. Well, and hopefully that'll help people, because I'm sure there are people listening that are wrestling through, like, I'm thinking about doing whatever it is. Eyelash extensions, acrylic nail. Like, the list goes on.
[00:48:22] Speaker A: The list goes on. By the way, I have on magnetic lashes right now because I like to put a little glue and magnetic on because I like eyelashes. I like makeup. Makeup. But that is the extent for me because I. I just cannot sit still to get the eyelash eyelashes. I've tried it twice. It just drives me nuts to lay there. I don't know how you guys do it.
[00:48:42] Speaker B: You have always had. I have always loved your eyelashes. Anytime.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: I'm like, lisa's makeup's gonna look amazing, and so are her eyelashes.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: Always.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: Every time.
[00:48:49] Speaker A: Former makeup artist. Thank you very much.
[00:48:51] Speaker B: I did not know that.
[00:48:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: What the. The lifespan that you have, like, lived. That's amazing.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Good. Well, I'll have to do that.
[00:49:00] Speaker B: And you can give us makeup tutorials.
[00:49:02] Speaker A: I would. That would be so fun for me.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it would be so fun.
[00:49:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: Well, one more kind of on this same idea while we're talking. Bodi, listen. It's the holidays, right? We've done Halloween and trick or treating and candy, some of us. And we're going into Thanksgiving and Christmas and all the things.
And I think we tend to.
The shame tends to kick up around food and bodies and how it's going to change our bodies. And we start to hear people talk about food, like, being bad or I have to earn this and that kind of language. What can you encourage people, especially in this season where food is connected to, like, tradition and celebration and still being able to Enjoy and honor their bodies.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: Yeah, really good question.
I don't know if I have a good answer for this. I will just say that food narratives are so toxic to us.
I, I want you to just enjoy the holidays with your family.
I think going into it and taking the pressure off the consumption of food in general is super important. I mean, we are already thinking, many of us, many of us are already thinking about food consumption over the holidays, and we are already stressing over it, and we're already thinking how we can combat it.
And that right there should be a sign to us that food is a problem. And quite honestly, that we need a belief system about our body. I mean, honestly, it is, because this should be a time of celebration.
And I think I would ask your, your listener right now is, how many holidays has food been on the forefront of your mind? Like, how many holidays?
I know for me, it's been on the forefront of my mind a lot.
And you know, when we were little, it wasn't, it just was a part of enjoyment. It was just part of the fun and the beauty of family.
And so, you know, honestly, I want you to just think of it in terms of how can this be a, a time to celebrate and honor God in everything that I do. And, and if that involves you having a slice of pie, that's completely fine. I mean, this should not be a time of strict rules. It just shouldn't be.
And punishing yourself over calories is never going to align with your scriptural call to glorify God. It just never will be. And so not being in conflict with that is really, really important.
If shame is a part of your holiday, then I just strongly encourage you to take that matter to the Lord in prayer, because that, that just would never be a part of what the Lord intended for you in your holiday.
[00:51:57] Speaker B: And even going back to what you were talking about too, with Paul and living in freedom and the things that control us, I think I remember talking to my therapist once about this is how toxic food was in my brain, that I was trying to have an eating disorder in my 20s and I, like, didn't have the, the self discipline to do it.
I mean, like, what? And then I was, as I was talking to her more, she was like, hey, actually you did have disordered eating.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:25] Speaker B: And that was really hard for me. I was like, I didn't have an eating disorder. She was like, okay, fine, you had disordered eating.
She's like, it's the same thing. Yeah, but I think I want, I say that. So I Want people listening to know we have to be honest with where we're at. And sometimes taking it to the Lord is definitely the first step.
But I think if we feel like food is controlling us to that level, we probably need some external help to break those chains of control and things that are controlling our mind and our lives in the way that only really, like, we should be finding freedom in Christ.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, if the answer to the question that I asked, like, how many holidays has food been on the forefront of your mind? If you answer, you know, in multiple, you know, multiple numbers, especially if you're in double digits, even if you're not. I mean, if the food is consuming you to the point where you're thinking about it already and how you can combat it, then I agree. I mean, disordered eating is interesting. People call things eating disorder. There's different spec. There's different. There's a spectrum there.
And even like orthorexia, which orthorexia is now becoming more and more known and sadly popular because it's like this. It's a disorder where you are eating so clean or your belief in the eating so clean becomes consuming that it is becomes like disordered eating, where you are so dead set on, you know, counting your macros and eating only, you know, high protein, this carnivore diet or whatever. And we have a lot of folks that would be in that category. And so if you are eating that way, it perhaps is time to get some. Some outside help with that. So, yeah, I really have a lot of love and empathy for folks that are in that space. And I want you to know there is freedom from that. There really is freedom from that.
Doesn't mean that you'll be free from the human experience, because the human experience, we still have moments where we have thoughts that come into our brain. We still have moments where we, you know, have grief over something or we long for something that is being a human.
But we don't have to live with this. These consuming thoughts where we're constantly judging ourselves, shaming ourselves and restricting ourselves, or there's our binge and we overeat and then we go and we punish ourselves. Self in the gym movement should never be punishment. It should be moving for the glory of God.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Where were you when I needed you 20 years ago?
[00:55:11] Speaker A: I mean, listen, I was in a bad place myself. I couldn't have helped you out of anything, Kristen. We were in a foxhole together. Yeah.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: Oh, gosh.
Lisa, last question for you, because the podcast is called it becoming church. How can listeners become the church of the people around them? Maybe specifically when it comes to honoring their or other people's bodies?
[00:55:30] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we touched on it a little bit, but I think it's really understanding who we are as a, as a created person in our imago day, being made in the image of God so that we can then honor others in their being made in the image of God. Hugely important, but also understanding who God made us to be, using our gifts for the glory of God so that we can also honor others in their giftedness. So many times I think we experience exhaustion because we are constantly trying to be everything. I mean, we live in a social media culture where we look around and we're like, oh, but I should be that and I should do that. And they're really killing it over there and why, you know, I need to kill it in the same way. And if we really understand the body of Christ, we'll understand that we are all gifted in different ways and we work together and we do all of that for the same purpose. And so I think that's hugely important is, you know, if we are an embodied. As an embodied person, we don't just try to handle the load. We don't just try to do everything, but we also look around and say, but they're better at that. They're gifted at that. They do that well, honor them in that and work together for the cause of Christ.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:56:53] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you, Lisa, so much. I'm just so grateful for your voice. I. I have been for years, as long as I've known you and so thank you for being here. We will link up your study, body and soul, so people can go get it and we'll link up all the other places that they can find you as well.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: Thanks, Kristin.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure this is the first conversation I've had on this show that's leaving me with a bit of a vulnerability hangover as I realize that I don't know exactly who will be hearing these words or how they could potentially change their opinion opinion of me, but this is me showing up fully and trusting God to use it all for his glory.
I know that we touched on some really tender topics today, so I'm going to link up a few additional resources in the show notes. I will link up some things on disordered eating, what happens to our bodies in and after trauma, and how you can invite God in to help you heal a complicated relationship with your body.
Lisa's study is, is an excellent place to start, and you can also reach out to me with specific questions on Instagram. Hristenmuchler Young, you have a good body because it's a reflection of the God who made you on purpose, for a purpose, and I pray that you'll be able to walk confidently in the belief of that knowledge this holiday season, especially.
Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
[00:58:16] Speaker A: Sam.
