Rethinking Mission Trips with Mekdes Haddis

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: When you think about doing missions, how does it make you feel? Nervous that God will ask you to sell everything and move overseas if you fully surrender to Him? Excited to go and be the hands and feet of Jesus to a group of people? While I think those are pretty typical responses, my guest today is going to propose that when it comes to missions, we're actually starting with the wrong question. I'm Kristen Mauchar Young and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. My guest today is Mechtez Hadis, founder of Just Missions, a community that elevates diaspora voices and equips Western allies to become mutual partners in the work of the gospel. And I've asked her here to explain what all of that means. Mechtes, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast podcast. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:04] Speaker B: So glad to have you. I know we were just chatting about. We met through mosaics, which you and I have both speaking at. Speaking at. Wow. Spoken at. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:18] Speaker B: That's where our paths crossed. So it's been a couple years and I'm really glad to have you. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah, same. It really, it's nice to reconnect. So I'm excited. [00:01:27] Speaker B: Well, for people that don't know of you or your work, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do like in the day to day. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So I am Mekdis. I actually recently just transitioned and launched my own consulting business through the Mutuality Lab. I've been doing it on the side for a couple of years, but I, after I, I wrote the book Adjust Mission, Laying Down Power, Embracing Mutuality, there's been just a lot interest in. Yay, you brought the book with you. Yeah. So my, you know, my journey into ministry has shifted a bit from being someone, you know, involved in the day to day activities of the church to helping leaders think through missions. How to do cross cultural ministry. Well, whether internationally or locally, within their own communities. We'll probably get into that later. But my biggest, you know, passion is addressing power dynamics as we are doing missional work. A lot of the work focuses on doing for others, but we don't really ask do they want the work to be done? Is that where they want our resources to go? And a lot of that cannot be addressed unless we have, you know, mutuality and humility. So I do cultural intelligence training. I do one on one coaching. I do, you know, just strategy with churches and yeah, so that's where I am awesome. [00:03:05] Speaker B: And we are going to dig into all of those things. [00:03:07] Speaker A: Yes. Today. [00:03:08] Speaker B: But real quick, tell us what your faith background has been and how it's kind of evolved over the years. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you know what, before I get into my faith journey, actually, I did not address my literal day today, which is raising my two beautiful children with my husband. So Amy and I were. Have been married for. It will be 14 years this July. And thank you. And My kids are 11. My oldest is a girl and so 11 and 6. My youngest is 6, a boy. And so that, that is really my biggest job in the world. Yeah. And so to get into my faith, how it's evolved. I grew up in a Christian home. I was born and raised in Ethiopia. And. Yeah. So in Ethiopia, you know, really, I grew up in a family that comes from the Eastern Orthodox tradition. Ethiopian Orthodox. But When I was 4, my mom came to know the Lord in such a dramatic way. She experienced physical healing and at a church prayer, you know, service, she was. There was. She had an illness that she struggled with for years and then she was healed. And so through that, you know, she, she started going to this evangelical church and, you know, learning scripture, learning about salvation, and she gave her heart to the Lord and she just never left that church. She went to be with the lord end of 2024. But it's been her faith and her journey that really paved the path for our family. She's the first one from. In our family to embark on such a, you know, an amazing faith journey. And I got the opportunity to watch her. And so I always say my mom wasn't just my biological mom, she was also my spiritual mother, which also makes the loss double, you know, and very difficult. But God has been faithful, you know, through her life. And so she discipled me really since childhood, with so much grace and love and not a lot of rules, surprisingly. We're a very rule focused culture and community. But there's just so much grace with her and allowed me to explore my faith in the way that I desired to. There was never like, gotta be a church every Sunday. You know, in my teen years when I felt like I just wanted to sleep in, she let me know. She'll just ask like, hey, are you okay? Whatever, and be like, okay, let's not repeat it next week, but we'll, we'll, you know, let you sleep in this week. [00:05:59] Speaker B: That's beautiful because I think a lot of people listening did not grow up with that. [00:06:02] Speaker A: And that's exactly. [00:06:04] Speaker B: Don't go to church anymore. I know Forced on them. So, yes, look, their faith for themselves. [00:06:11] Speaker A: They do, absolutely. There was just a lot of grace in the way she raised us. She let. Let us make our own mistakes and trusted. And I think that speaks to how much she trusted the Lord. There not fear in her walk with Him. She knew he would take care of us. And so I think that just made me fall in love with Jesus very easily. So at 16, I. I made the decision to follow Jesus, got baptized, I was discipled. We had a very rigorous discipleship journey that I went through for like six months before I even got baptized. And then after that, we had, you know, another six months journey that I went on. And that really transformed my life. And after that, I really became like a. An evangelist, an evangelistic person. You know, I would just go and tell everybody that Jesus is Lord. There was no fear. We did street evangelism, all of that. And then in college, I knew that the Lord is calling me to ministry. And so, yeah, so back home, I went to college for about a year. And then I was like, ah, whatever I'm learning here, I know I'm not supposed to do for the rest of my life. And so I started praying. My mom prayed with me. And then we identified that, okay, I have to go out of the country and pursue, you know, whatever the Lord is gonna do through that. Long story short, I ended up at Liberty University, and I got, you know, I got a full right to go there and. Which was such a beautiful exposure in terms of learning for the first time in my life, like theology and, you know, getting an opportunity to study Scripture. And so, you know, anybody that went to Christian school knows that even though your major may be different, that you kind of graduate with a minor in biblical studies because all the electives that you take. So I really, really loved. Fell in love with that and. And, you know, culturally was a very difficult and just unique experience, but spiritually so enriching. So kind of walked out of there thinking, wait, this is interesting. You know, I'm like, spiritually growing and there's all this good stuff. But when it comes to contextualization, I knew there was a breakdown. I didn't have language for it. But that kind of set the tone. My. My time there set the tone for me, I think, to start being really passionate about contextualizing scripture based on cultural context, based on where people come from. And then I, you know, I went to serve at several churches as. Just as a discipleship director and then an outreach director and transitioned. You know, now here I am I wrote a book about, you know, missions and all of that and. Yeah, yeah. [00:09:09] Speaker B: Did you ever plan to go back to Ethiopia when you finished college? I mean, you came to study. Did you plan to go back? [00:09:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I've always wanted to. I still want to go back. But the Lord has said, yeah, but he has not let me yet. But it's, it's always been the plan for me. I really just wanted to go back, take whatever I learned and go and start a ministry. I've always been passionate about studying God's word and teaching it to others. So my plan was really to go back. But then in trying to go back, I discovered that, you know, the way missions were done did not allow someone like me to go back and do the things I wanted to do. That, you know, it was just a very closed door for a diaspora to come, you know, to go to school. I was seen as a receiver of all these activities, not as a leader. So in order to mobilize people, I had to study them first and understand what they were looking for. Because the way I was asking was not getting it done right. Although I come from Ethiopia, although I, you know, I grew up there, although I was passionate and I was called, all of that was not enough. There needed to be something that they're looking for that I can give them. And I didn't see that as what my people needed. So that kind of switched. You know, I, obviously, the Lord had called me to stay and serve this community. And in serving this community, I started understanding deeper what some of the challenges were in trying to accomplish that cross cultural ministry. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Okay, so was it really in thinking about going back that you started to investigate, like, how missions are typically done? [00:11:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, part of, partly, yes, because, you know, I, like I said if, you know, when I was in college, I would want to go back on a mission trip and serve like, you know, community that I knew. But there were institutions that worked with the school, for example, and would mobilize, you know, tons of kids to go and play sports and share the gospel and come back. And I was like, that's great, but I know the community they're going to. I also know these people are, they have their own, like, for example, they're Eastern Orthodox, and that's kind of the desire they have is to keep on that faith. And so, yeah, I didn't understand why you would go there when, if the goal is to share the gospel with people that have not heard it, for example, or to equip pastors and leaders who have A network that you can go further with a little bit of money. So I started seeing a lot of the interest was really cultural exposure of the students rather than solving a problem that is kingdom minded. Not, you know, cultural exposure is nothing bad, but the way it was marketed was, we're changing the world. But what it was accomplishing was not that. And there was an emphasis on really helping local leaders reach the lost. And so those are some of the, you know, some of the questions I had, obviously, in college, I was like, why wouldn't they, like, ask me to go with them? Or like, why wouldn't they learn the language? Or these people are not interested in having relationships with those of us who are already here there. We have our own challenges when it comes to being an, you know, an international student at that time. As a student, I was there to study and go back home. I was not interested to stay in America. But I. People would call me, oh, an immigrant or, you know, terms like that, that I'm like, I'm not an immigrant. I just came to school, study, and I would go back if I decided to stay. Yes. But there were just labels put on me too early because they didn't know how to be like, allow me to be a co partner, you know, a partner in. In the mission and in the work. And so I was like, oh, there's no room for people like us. We're just on the outside. And what God is doing in our lives doesn't really matter in this context. It's really the. The way things are done is made for one group. And my brain started thinking of how about us? Like, who's thinking about those of us who come and want to go back or, you know, people on the margins that still have a missional call. And money does not equate the gospel. So just because you can go doesn't mean you have something to give. You have to be able to share the gospel. You have to have a life where it's, you know, emulating. And so, yeah, that definitely started. Started me asking all those questions. And obviously it was several years after that I started putting it together. I needed other languages. I wasn't seeing America in the context of its real history, how it was, you know, how it began, what role faith played in the slave movement or, you know, slavery and all of that stuff. And so once I had a fuller picture of the place I was living in and why people looked at me a certain way and all of that, then I'm like, it all makes sense. So I just wanted to put it in a book and be like, hey guys, this is how it works and this is how it impacts the mission movement. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And here's what we can do better. [00:15:00] Speaker A: And how is how we can do better. Exactly. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. [00:15:04] Speaker B: You have your book right here. Just mission. Thank you to IVP for sending this to me and embracing mutuality. And I think one of the discrepancies that you kind of address in here is the idea of like people who go overseas for mission work while neglecting to minister to people from these same places that live in their own communities. And obviously you wrote a whole book about this, but why do you think this is such a prevalent thing in the American church especially? [00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for asking that question. I think one of the things I have seen and I've spent the past four years working on a project with the national association of Evangelicals on Racial justice and Reconciliation. And so which is like, you know, the church needs to be fully engaged in reconciliation work because that's what Jesus did. And we have, we must be reconciled with one another as we've reconciled with him. And I feel like the mission movement has kind of evolved into an escape goat. It's become like the escape goat to this huge, glaring issue that God is calling the American church to address, which is to reconcile with one another. And so if it's causing us to sin, what do we do with it? You know, we must pause and then redirect our resources and energy to a problem that really is a heart issue that's shaping our children's lives, that is still impacting the people that we call neighbors. And so I don't, I speak especially short term missions is just not my favorite topic. You know, it's just not. It. I feel like it adds fuel to the fire. But the reason I don't like it is not because I think it's inherently wrong. I think it just causes a lot of problems here. Like here it's an escape, it's neglecting. It's like a husband who's not taking care of his wife, but then he goes out and is like the best man to the rest of the world. Right. That's kind of how I see the relationship of the American church, majority culture church, the responsibilities that it has to love its neighbor, you know, and then to. But then they're going across the world and just building churches and doing all. Digging up wells and solving problems they weren't asked to solve in the first place. Where here you have brothers and sisters in Christ who really do need A neighbor who needs someone to open up their heart, their lives, who need someone to teach them the ways of the land. You know, God calls us to be hospitable to the immigrant and, you know, to. To the oppressed and the needy. And we're not doing that as the Western church. And so that's really why I'm not. It's not my favorite thing in the world. It causes us to. It's like, you know, running away from the thing God is calling you to do. [00:18:12] Speaker B: I also think it's an easy way to say, like, no, no, I care about people. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Look at. Look at me. Yes, exactly. Look at what I'm doing. You make yourself feel good. [00:18:22] Speaker B: Correct. Correct. [00:18:23] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:18:23] Speaker B: And it's not bad good intentions, but good intentions can cause harm, and good intentions can just be good intentions that. When there's actual better work to be done. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:18:35] Speaker B: So you mentioned. Oh, sorry, go ahead. [00:18:37] Speaker A: No, I was just gonna say. And I've noticed that, honestly, you know, this is one of the most. Most interesting things I found out as I have been, you know, writing the book and reading and connecting with missional leaders. They are a lot of missionaries that have lived outside of the United States have no context to what's happening here. Like the. The dynamics, the cultural dynamics, they have no understanding of, because, like you said, that provided a way out for them to solve another world problem, but they're completely unaware. And so they've actually, those spaces have been the hardest to have these conversations of, you know, reconciliation and justice. It's just very, very difficult for them. [00:19:30] Speaker B: Well, and you also mentioned this idea of mission being rooted in power instead of Jesus. Where do you see that happening that I would say maybe American Christians, like, might miss? [00:19:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I go to Acts 1:8 and compare it to Matthew 28, you know, in. In my book. And so Acts 1:8 says, obviously, Jesus first tells them. He gives them the Great Commission in Matthew and then says, go into all the world, make disciples. And he has told them he has the authority to, you know, he. For them to be able to do that. But then in Acts 1:8, he says, first, stay and wait for the Holy Spirit. We never talk about that. And then he says, once you're filled with the Spirit, go to your Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth. So there's a process to it. But because the American church can, because it has money, it has power, it has access, completely disregards things, the process, and is able to just take over and go into the world and make disciples and if you ever challenge that, you're told, no, we're following Scripture. Jesus said, go into the world. I have a responsibility to reach the nations. But the question is really, are you reaching your Jerusalem first? I'm not saying, are you feeding, you know, people at a soup kitchen? I'm not saying are you giving out sandwiches on Saturdays to, you know, people that are unhoused? Or are you. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking you, are you filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and are you able to make this crazy changes in your life that might cause you to get kicked out? You know, the disciples were running away for their lives. That's how the gospel was spread across the world. It was not like, hey, I feel called to go to this country. You know, it was something radical that they were doing that really caused them to all be killed at the end. And so it's a dangerous call, you know, having the gospel and then living for it and then questioning the realities of the world and then speaking truth to power may cause you to lose some of the privileges that you have. But you think you're doing good because there's still scripture that says, go into the world, but you haven't examined, you know, all of the other. So that's. Yeah, that's how I see it. [00:22:16] Speaker B: What could that look like for people? You're like, it's not this. If it's not like doing service projects here, which are all good things. I know you're not saying you're not. [00:22:23] Speaker A: No. Yeah. [00:22:24] Speaker B: What are you thinking that that would look like if people did stop to be filled with the Spirit first or listened to, you know, Holy Spirit, discernment before going and deciding how and where they're going to help? [00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Obviously it's going to look different for everybody, but I think there are things that God calls us to. I mean, if we talk about recent events of. Yeah, please, ICE coming into Charlotte and, you know, going ICE was in front of churches, Spanish speaking churches, intimidating people, and the church was being persecuted. From my perspective. Right. The people couldn't go freely gather and worship because it was not a safe space. What has our churches done, you know, in the city to utilize the power that they have, majority culture, churches, and to go and stand in front of those churches or to serve these people or to network with the pastors and make sure that they create a safe space for the body of Christ to gather. And this is just for the body. You know, we're not even talking about the non Believers who are struggling out on their own. And so part of it is for churches to wrestle with that. Why aren't we able. Some churches don't even address it, but if it's about the war in Ukraine, for example, it was a point of prayer for so many churches when that was happening. It was easy to do. It's out there. And they can pray for it. Yeah, absolutely. And so. And they can send money. It's super easy. But how do you wrestle with a complex? Next topic is this. You just let people fend for themselves and let it go by you. I. Those are. That's the Jerusalem that the Lord is wanting us to challenge. I mean, reach. And so if. Then what does that cause us? There's a lot of discomfort that comes with that. There's a lot of politics that we must, like, be really responsible with in understanding. It's gonna ask us not to be intellectually lazy and just consume. Instead, we. We need to start constructing our own opinions and views and reconcile it with the word of God. It's gonna cause sanctification to happen, and who wants that? Right? So I think, yeah, it's just. It's an idol that we must wrestle with. And, you know, this mission movement becomes an idol that we. All the things that we cannot do here physically, we export it out because we can, and then we feel good about themselves, about ourselves, and then come back and just ignore people here, ignore the problems here. The other thing I talk about in the book is just red line districts in our cities that we never go across and visit. Earlier we were talking about, you know, the areas we live in. We're both in kind of, you know, areas that probably are not in the red line district of our cities. But, for example, the area that you. You live in, I don't want to say it, but, you know, where you live. I have, you know, driven across. I think when we first moved to Charlotte, we were lost, my husband and I, and just went further deep in that area, and we drove maybe like two miles away from our church and ended up in. Girl. Oh, my gosh. That was. I remember just being so shocked. Within Charlotte city limits, it's just this hidden space that nobody goes into. None of our doctors offices are there. None of the grocery stores are there. They're just being left out there. And a lot of Christians don't really know about it unless you just so happen to drive by it. So systemically, they're hidden. It's not that we're even intentionally saying we don't want to See these things. But pastors and leaders have the responsibility to know that and not just throw money at that problem, but really engage it and see why are people living a lifestyle such as this and that, again, will cause some. Some trouble with the city council or with this and that. And you don't want to get into that. And so that's. Those are like some of the big problems that I see that we're not addressing as. As the body of Christ right now. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And there's. There's cost and there's risk. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. Absolutely. But that's what we're called to do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Okay, let's. Since you brought it up, let's just be honest about a lot of what's driving. I think this mission perspective. That's what we need to do. Right. Is change the perspective of, like, missions does not mean going overseas to a group of people that are removed from us, doing a little whatever we're going to do and then, like coming back, that we need to shift our perspective. But how have you seen to whatever you. However you want to delve into this. Political policies kind of shape the global relationships that Christians have. I mean, here, overseas. All of the above. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I can say they shape how, you know, global policies shape how the mission movement is, you know, done. I don't know if I can say that, but I know that the mission movement goes along with it, you know, so, you know. Yeah. So I know that it's not disruptive of geopolitical issues. For example, you know, when it, when there's war in a different country, the first thing American and what, you know, Western missionaries do is call them back home. And they do. They just say, it's not safe. We're coming. But I don't see a lot of them saying no. God has called me to stay here with these people. I'm gonna use my privilege to ask questions, to make sure, whatever. So when there's problem, we disengage in these spaces. So that one that makes. I don't. I'm not saying, like, I'm not accusing the missionaries. That's the level of training they have. This is the resource they have. But it's, They're. It's. They're byproducts of whatever is happening. And so I think if the church is to be the answer, you know, has the answer to the world. We're supposed to be a light, a shining light, then I think the way we. We do these things has to leave an example even, you know, when you flee, are there people that you let stay there? Because, you know, it's imperative to the mission of the gospel that we lay down our life with. With others, or we cause attention to come this way because some Westerners have tried, you know, decided to stay in protest, whatever it may be. So I think the challenge is that we just play along as we don't get in trouble unless, you know, our. Our mission is to share the gospel, and it has nothing to do with politics or any of that stuff, which is not true. We just want to play it safe and live a life that is comfortable. And I say that to myself, too. I'm not pointing, you know, finger at everybody else but me, you know, but I think these are the things the Lord desires for us to wrestle with. It should be uncomfortable. [00:30:02] Speaker B: I think we also have to. Or at least I know for myself, I had to kind of redefine what is like, quote, unquote, holy work to do. So I've been doing a lot of work with women of welcome. I'm actually starting a local chapter here in Charlotte. And so recently I was in front of multiple representatives for a congressperson and a representative, and we literally practiced advocacy. And so there was a group of us in the room, and we just passed the microphone around and we said. And it was uncomfortable. And their responses tended to be a little defensive, which made me so angry. And I was trying to, like, keep my composure. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:46] Speaker B: But also, that is holy work, and that is a way for us to care about what happens here. And I even specifically, you know, it wasn't the actual, like, Congress people that were in the room. It was their team. But I. One of them, I know, has a very strong faith, and I use that. And I said, here's the problem when we vote on certain policies, because there is an overlap. Yeah, we are doing damage to the body of Christ. And I used the specific example that you brought up of, like, when ICE comes in and targets churches, those people are now afraid to leave their homes. They cannot go to work, they cannot get food. They cannot pay for their families. And they're missing this, like, spiritual community that they need and the support that they need. And so I was like, hey, if we're going to be political figures of faith, then we need to make sure we're aligning these parts of our lives and voting on. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:31:39] Speaker B: Are going to protect them and not continue to do damage here. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I love that. And I also think about the next generation who's watching majority of the population growing up in the US Are brown and black children, specifically brown children. And they're seeing how their parents are being abandoned by the church. And tomorrow, that's another problem that we must wrestle with. There's a lot that we have to reconcile with our brothers and sisters for, like, historically. Right. And then now we're adding more to, to the fire by not being the church, by not being present, by abandoning the body of Christ. And these kids are going to grow up. They're going to be the ones who are going to be representing the Western church. They might choose to walk away. You know, it's, it's our own. It's gonna cost the body of Christ as a whole. The actions that we don't take today, they don't only have, you know, present impact, they only have. They also have impact in our future. And so, yeah, that, that breaks my heart. I've had conversations with friends who lead in these communities who've said it's okay, we'll take care of our own, you know, but there's heartbreak in that and they will remember, unfortunately, and it's just going to be harder. So I think as we engage God's work in this world redemptively, this is part of that. And yeah, I think it just breaks my heart honestly to think about that. [00:33:25] Speaker B: If you are interested in getting involved with women of welcome either here in Charlotte or wherever you are across the United States, check out the link in the show notes. There are local chapters all over that provide community support, advocacy opportunities, training and education on how to respond to political policy that affects our migrant and refugee neighbors. If you feel like no one around you seems to care the way that you do, there is a group of women who would love to show you that you're not. Your compassion is not political, but it is prophetic and it is biblical. I want to ask you one more question, Mechtez, about overseas ministries before we get back to bringing it here. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Sure. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Because there are again, lots of churches and lots of people that want to, that are going to continue their mission trips. [00:34:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:15] Speaker B: Going overseas, whether it's short term, sending long term missionaries, whatever it is, what can they do? What would you suggest they do to stop centering the people who are going, going like stop making it about an experience for them and shift the focus to the experience of the people who are actually receiving the quote unquote help? [00:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I actually have a course on my website, the Mutuality Lab, that people can go and take, but I basically talk about three things before you go, while you're there and then after you come back. And so before you go, you have to be intentional in really establishing relationship with if you can possibly find people, which I feel like is really hard not to in America, people from the con, the continent you're going to or the, you know, area or a country that you're going to try to establish a relationship here, don't make it. It's not, I mean we're not in, in the 1800s. So you know, we're. It's very easy to, to find people to have conversations and start learning from people that have lived there and now are here. Like what, what it is? What was it about home? How is God working? What should we be looking out for? What should I eat? What should I drink? How do I greet people? Like stuff that's a little bit more deeper than just oh, what should I wear? And you know, how do I greet people? But like trying to understand the heart of the culture from the people that come from there and try to establish friendship with a pastor from that community if possible. And then I would say once there. So I mean, establishing a partnership, knowing the, that that partner is not trying to up ease you, but you are there to serve and do what they really need to do is also another kind of trust building work that you have to do with leaders. A lot of them are trained back there to give western leaders what they need so that they just, you know, it's like this tourism, right? You give them money, you tell them we want to come and spend 10 days, figure out a project for us to do. For the most part, that's how it goes. And then you go and you paint a wall or you go, whatever, feed children or whatever. And so if you can try to investigate how is God already working, what are some shifts that you're seeing? How does your organ organization or ministry want to move in the future and try to see what, what God is doing and already there and not try to introduce your own agenda or project that needs to be completed in the next three years or five years. I can't tell you how many pastors I've talked to that have said like, I want to go to Ethiopia, but I want to go to a specific part and then do develop this thing for that community. And I'm like, have you, like, do you know what God is doing there already? You know, like, like any like idea what is burning in the heart of the pastor that is actually entrusted with shepherding this community? So while there I would say a lot of that. I also say, don't jump and go like to an area that is impoverished. And before you start understanding the full context of the country, for a lot of people that I've met in the US Especially when I was in college, they would say, you're from Ethiopia. Oh my gosh. Like you speak English or you are. Someone has said you're not like super skinny, which implies that, you know, it's a. You guys don't have food. How come you're well fed? Just a bunch of things like that. Which is a result of this poverty tourism that the church promotes, which is really unethical. When, you know, when we. We go to a new country, we typically start by looking at their museums and monuments and history. Let's give people dignity and honor and allow to ourselves to learn their, like a comprehensive history before we go to one section of their country and start saying, like, this is what I want to do. [00:38:37] Speaker B: And you know, the whole country is like, exactly. [00:38:40] Speaker A: And then you come and say, oh, these people. Exactly. And now everybody else is like, oh, we gotta go and save them because they're dying. What? But in reality, you've just seen like a little dot of the whole context. [00:38:53] Speaker B: It's like you said, you know, drive two miles past and it's a very different place. [00:38:57] Speaker A: It's like, exactly. [00:38:58] Speaker B: Take that and go like, look. Look what she looked like. [00:39:00] Speaker A: This is what Charlotte is like. And that's completely not true. And that won't get you anywhere with the real leaders of this city. Right. Like with the people that can actually make systemic changes. That that messaging is just going to be like, oh, let them do their thing. But we don't want to work with them. So it's not. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't paint a good picture. And then when you come back, I say, like, again, come back and try to connect with people here that are from that part of the world. Try to really develop leadership outside out of that context. Context. It's almost like it should be. You know, in leadership, we talk about working our. Ourselves out of a job. Right. That's kind of the idea of it. That should be what we intend to do in all these spaces that we go is identify specific leaders who are capable, pour into them, give up, give them resources. You should not be needed, really. But in a lot of ways, that's not what happens, which is unfortunate. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Okay. I never thought about it that way. But yeah, if we're actually helping and we're supporting and we're providing. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Yep. [00:40:12] Speaker B: Then we're training, we're educating, we're okay. [00:40:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really brilliant. [00:40:17] Speaker B: Well, Mechta, as you talk about embracing mutuality, will you explain what does that, what does that mean and what can it actually look like? [00:40:26] Speaker A: Yeah, mutuality is really. It starts with curiosity. It starts with the assumption that everybody is created in God's image. God is writing his. His story in their lives. And as I engage with them, I'm engaging with that expectation of figuring out what that story is as he has written mine. There is a full story. If I was the interviewer today, that I would ask you and you would tell me, right, How God has brought you from where he has and brought you here. And so everybody has that story. And mission, global mission movements, usually we talk about, there's this language of we're going to go to the least of, of these and they're lost and the darkest places in the world. And like, it's hopeless, hopeless. These people just need us. You know, God is just nowhere to be found, which is completely false. God is there, he's doing his work and he reveals himself even through nature. Scripture tells us like, you know, creation tells us about who he is. And in Muslim countries, for example, where, you know, missionaries can access, a lot of them come to know the, the Lord through a dream. Like, I, I've heard tons of sto stories and testimonies where people say, this man came to me, he was wearing white. He told me his name was Jesus. He told me to go to a village and go find a person with this name. And they go, and that person happens to be a pastor or somebody the Lord has been speaking to that ends up sharing the gospel with them disciples, them. So God has a way. It's not that he needs us. He gives us these and as a privilege for us to be transformed through, to see who he is and, you know, to grow, grow us closer to Him. And so mutuality is really that. Just a curiosity and, you know, without assumption and then a desire to engage in what God is already doing and then to lay down power so that the privileges that you have, you know, you have them, you should go into them knowing, right? Like I, I taught, I mean, for example, I don't want to open another topic, but in a marriage, you know, if you're married to someone who does not understand the privileges that he as a woman, if you marry someone who does not understand the privileges of being a man in this world and how that comes across and can impact you in this relationship, and it's not going to be a great relationship. The communication is not going to be pleasant. You know, you will be unheard and grow frustrated and one day you probably will say, you know what? I choose me, I'm out of here. In order for that not to happen, what needs to happen is self reflection and understanding of your privilege. It doesn't mean you're a bad person because you have privilege. It just means you know how to use it well. And so when you are interacting with someone across the world and who does not have possess the same privileges as you, then it is imperative that you understand what you bring to the table. Your heart and it being so good and your. You being called by Jesus is not enough for a good impact. You have to know as you speak how this person is going to listen and receive you. Your simple request for, hey, I would love to be able to take care of children here is going to be translated into, we're going to start an orphanage, bring all the children from their homes. And you know, it's just going to have such a huge impact. So you really have to understand historically, what does it mean when a white person goes into a small village in Africa? What has it done, the good and the bad? And how is any request by my institution or my presence going to be interpreted? And you really have to go knowing, you know, the consequence, the good, the bed, that, that, that could come from an interaction. So there needs to be a lot of prayer, needs to be a lot of asking questions, you know, and also raising up leaders who have the capacity to challenge you. And so it's interesting because I say, like, I want, I want to, I want leaders like me all over the globe to like, speak up for their, their area, their countries, their continents, all of that, who are able to say, no, I don't like it. You know, that's actually true. And power balance, right? When I say no, you guys are doing this really horribly. The way you receive, it says more about you than me. I'm telling you what it is. You can say, I don't like Mectis and I don't like what she has to say. I'm not gonna work with her. That just tells me you don't know the privilege you have. It's like. And you know, Mekdes knows her people. She speaks the language. I may not speak for everybody, but I can tell you overall the symptoms and the problems. And so, yeah, that's really what mutuality means to me. [00:45:42] Speaker B: What a pride issue we have if the church cannot receive. [00:45:47] Speaker A: Yep. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Thank you for Wanting to come and do this, but it's not actually helpful. This would be helpful instead. If we cannot hear that and respond and we just bulldoze our way in and go. But no, these are the photo ops that we need. Like, yeah, that's disgusting. [00:46:05] Speaker A: It is. [00:46:06] Speaker B: It really is. Like, I don't know how else to say it. That is a problem. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. It is a big problem. It's a big problem. Yeah. [00:46:14] Speaker B: What it seems to be. MECH does that there are two camps of people. Okay. And I'm talking about. We'll just talk about. In the American Christianity, we've got, like, people that get Matthew 25, right? And they're actively working to love their neighbors. And then there are other people who seem to just kind of excuse injustice or because they classify people from other countries as outsiders. There's a very clear line of things right now. How can we help that second group of people to see that what they're supporting overseas is just as necessary as what needs to happen here? Like, how can we make that connection for them? Because I just want to share. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Me too. I think that is. I mean, a lot of them, I would say, cannot be accessed outside of. Obviously, God can reach any heart, but I think it's their pastors and leaders responsibility to provide that space for them. And I think those leaders need to allow stories from these communities to be told. Like, you know, on Sunday, when you do a video testimony of, you know, somebody who has gone through struggles and how the Lord has challenged them, whatever it may be, what an opportunity it would be to have conversations with local pastors from these communities and allow stories like this to be told and how that has shaped their faith, how that challenged their faith. It's going to start showing people, oh, my gosh, they walk just like me, and I can be a brother or sister in Christ. A lot of it comes from just polarization and thinking like, oh, my gosh, you know, there are the enemy. And as humans, we like stuff like that because it's easy. We don't have to talk, Think about it. We don't have to be discomforted. But I think the pastors have, or their community leaders, whoever has those opportunities to slowly start telling true stories, you know, and allow them to. To make the connection. Hey, I have traveled from my country where missionaries used to come, and I heard the gospel. I came here, but then here, these people were not receptive of me. It's. It's challenging, you know, to know that I was not really wanted in the first place to Join this kingdom. It was just like to fulfill this opportunity, activity, this, this number that they had in mind. It's really about the. The. The person's journey and how they follow Christ all the way wherever he calls them. Guess what? Even though you don't like the circumstances that he has called them to America, you know, he's called them to the ends of the world. Well, this is the end of the world that he has called them. They also have this same calling of reaching their Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, today, ends of the earth. They're allowed to go wherever God calls them to go, you know, and so you are actually hindering the gospel, the spread of the gospel. And. And I think those things need to be challenged in, in. In that format. A lot of it, I think, has to be storytelling relational conversations. I actually had when I launched the Mutuality Lab, which I'm planning to do another event in the fall. But. But my launch event was here in Charlotte and did a conversation between a mission organizational leader, like a. An investor who does a lot of philanthropic work, pastor, like a black pastor disciple, a black church discipleship pastor, and then a Latina church leader brought them together and started having this conversation. Hey, from your perspective. And I was such. Such a beautiful, fruitful conversation. We had lunch with and I invited the like, similar groups of people that were represented on stage. And I gave, you know, kind of the mutuality framework first. We had Ethiopian food, got to eat with our hands, be uncomfortable, and then listen to their stories. And I think we need to do more of that. Which I'm going to do another one. One in the fall, so I'll let you know. Yeah, but I think we need more and more of that in our churches to start seeing these dynamic leaders for the kingdom in. But living a completely different lifestyle than what we are exposed to or, you know, aware of. And seeing them. Yeah. And seeing them as our brothers. Not only our brothers and sisters in Christ, but also as the. The leaders of the. The church of, you know, our nation and inviting them to the table as well. So. Yeah. [00:51:11] Speaker B: M. Let me ask you really quickly how like as a pastor. Right. Or people listening that have leadership or they've got some pull. How do we. Like, how do I come to your Ethiopian church and try to establish a relationship or to do what you're saying without like appropriating you or making it seem like I'm trying to token. [00:51:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you for asking. Yeah, thank you for asking that. I would obviously start a conversation with the pastor first. You know, just Invite him to lunch, invite him to trainings. One of the biggest challenges we have in our immigrant communities is that we're not institutionalized. So a lot of our pastors are just doing this on their own. They're not a part of this group or that group. So any pastoral encouragement, training retreat, whatever it is, it would be such a gift to be invited to so they can just start listening. They want to know how things work here in this context, and they want to be able to give that to their congregation. Invite them to bring someone with them, you know, that helps them in their ministry, so that they have at least another person that is experiencing this new culture. That would be such a gift. I mean, the same thing happens in colleges where international students are not invited to an actual house when they go back to their country. And a lot of about 75% of them end up becoming state heads in their country. But we miss the opportunity to become friends with someone who's going to be a president in their country, you know, and make a huge impact. Impact for the gospel. The same is true. These pastors are, you know, spiritual leaders, shakers, are movers in our community. Just having these types of relationships, friendships, and investing in them, helping them get, you know, leadership development, whatever, maybe go to seminary, whatever it may be, would be such a gift to the larger community. Then you'll start identifying areas where you can make an impact. I would say if you have a summer camp, invite that church to join you. Because a lot of times these kids, they don't have these types of structured spiritual models that, you know, if there's vbs that you do, if you do what's the ministry that does awana like, stuff like that. Yeah. So, you know, just invite them. They would be so happy to be embraced. And then out of that relationships will grow. I think we have to think more about how do I share the wealth of resources I have and establish a relationship before it becomes transactional. Don't go on, you know, talking about, what can we do for your church? No, come to us, let us be friends. Like, here is the stuff we have. If you have youth leaders you want to train, if you want to start children's ministry, like, we have all the. It's going to be very easy for you guys to do that. [00:54:12] Speaker B: All right, let me ask you. I know your kids are home. Let me ask you are one last [00:54:15] Speaker A: question really quick, [00:54:18] Speaker B: because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church, the people around them? Conversation. [00:54:25] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I would say identify, you know, Who. Who is your neighbor? Start a relationship with them. I, in the book, again, I talk about the Ethiopian unic and Philip's conversation, and I think that's what we need to be. If you see Philip, he goes in. I mean, he was sent by the Lord and he just kind of was dropped there. But he was very curious in his interaction with the eunuch. He listened to him and understood where he was. And then he started asking, what are you reading? And then he says, do you understand what you're reading? And he was just very curious and intentional. And the man actually led him to the next step. He said. Said, you know, under. I don't understand. I'm reading, but I don't understand. Can you explain? And then he explained. And then he said, oh, there's water here. Can I get baptized? Sure. I can baptize you. There's a lot we can do if we step into. See, you know, God's people around us and really reach out to them as our true neighbor, be curious and start relationships with them. God is already ahead of us, and he will help us to do his work and his will. This is not something we can construct on our own, that we really have to have a heart that is nimble enough to go where he calls us to go. So, like Philip, you know, you may not be called to the inside of the world, but you could be just moved to an area in your city or, you know, at your children's school or wherever, where God is inviting you to be curious about somebody, baby's life. And so I would say be the church there. [00:56:05] Speaker B: I love it. Find your mission field. We all have. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. We all do. [00:56:09] Speaker B: And they're here. [00:56:11] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yes. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Amen, Lectus. Thank you so much for being here. I will link up the book as well as your lab. What's it called? [00:56:21] Speaker A: TheMutuality Lab dot com. Yeah, the Mutuality Lab dot com. [00:56:25] Speaker B: Link that up as well. [00:56:26] Speaker A: So thank you. [00:56:27] Speaker B: Thank you so much. [00:56:28] Speaker A: Thank you. This is wonderful. I appreciate it. [00:56:34] Speaker B: Mission really happens wherever you are. It happens in social justice and racial reconciliation. It happens when you honor the dignity of other people, and it happens when you speak out against the systems that justify imbalance. It happens when you choose to humbly take a step back to reevaluate what you've been taught was loving and righteous. [00:56:53] Speaker A: If you. [00:56:53] Speaker B: If you want to become a better partner with God and what he is already doing overseas, I would love for you to check out the link for Mechdez's missions course and pick up her book, a just mission to see the ways that you may be accidentally complicit in the things that center us as the helpers so you can begin to better understand what it really looks like to serve God's people both locally and globally. Please share this episode with a PATH Pastor, ministry leader, or a non profit employee who works within a diverse community. It would be great training or at least a great reminder for their staff and community that what they are doing matters. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church. The people around you.