What John the Apostle Teaches us about Surrender

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Followers of Jesus know that transformation is a key element of our faith and that we become more like Jesus the more we spend time with him. But have you ever wondered how it changed the disciples to be learning those lessons in real time? My guest today has unique insight into what that might have been like. I'm Kristin Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Today I'm chatting with George Xanthus, who plays the disciple John on the Chosen. I got to sit down with him and Vanessa Benevente, who plays Mother Mary during Chosen Con, but unfortunately, due to a technical glitch, that recording became unusable. George was gracious enough to work me in this week literal days before starting to shoot season seven. So make sure that you tag him and thank him in the comments of this episode on Instagram, so he knows how much we appreciate him. George, welcome officially to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so glad to have you. Just to let our listeners know, I did meet you at Chosen Con and then we had some technical difficulties and so. So we're really grateful that you gave us an hour of your time to kind of re record, you know, what we had before. I actually want to start off. I'm going to ask you the first question that I asked you then, because your response was funny and I want to see if you remember it. So my setup was actually like, you know, as the disciple who Jesus loves, I asked you, who does Jonathan actually love the most on set? And what you said was, I know who it's not. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Oh, yes. Do you remember who you said, tongue in cheek. It's not Jordan. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Of course. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Of course it's not Jordan. It's definitely not Jordan. And I. I actually think if there is a hierarchy of, you know, of favorite people in Jonathan's life, I've now gone up a few rungs because I have made it. I. Another person has made it publicly known that he wants nothing to do with Jordan. I'm just joking. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Of course you're joking. [00:02:20] Speaker A: You will find it hilarious that I am. I am really playing up this faux feud. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:27] Speaker A: But it's just an ongoing gag that they have together, and I think it's all based on. I actually talked to Jordan about it pretty recently and it. It's. I actually. I remember that day that it was happening because this is probably a little bit. This is probably something I've never kind of said before. But I think what had happened was Jordan was walking near Jonathan in, like, season one, and he would just brush up against Jonathan and be like, oh, oh. You know, like, holding his hand and being like, oh, you know, we're just. We're just best friends. And, you know, it's like, this is like my. Like, my family and stuff. And Jonathan's like, that's easy, easy. Little James. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Too close. [00:03:13] Speaker A: But I remember thinking at the time, like, oh. Like, I was. I was actually thinking very early on, how do I establish this John Jesus kind of relationship? So I actually was thinking the reason why. I remember when Jordan told that story about it happening in season one, the reason I remembered it is because I was thinking, oh, I. You know, which sounds kind of funny because Jordan's doing it as a joke, and I'm like, would my character do it? Thinking that maybe John is this eager student that would want to be as close to. As close to his rabbi as possible so he can get the answers right. Which is kind of the vibe I gave John. I have always given him. It's just. What type of eager student is he now? He's more of a chill, eager student. Before, he was kind of the obnoxious, eager student that always puts their hand up, always gets it right, and then rubs it into the rest of the class. [00:04:00] Speaker B: Yes. He has evolved. John has evolved through the season, so good job, you know, with that. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:04:06] Speaker B: What's funny about what's funny about Jordan is that I have not had him directly on this show yet, but his name has come up more with other cast members than anyone else's name. [00:04:15] Speaker A: Funny. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Hilarious. And now I need to bring him in and be like, all right, let's talk about Liz and Yaz and George, because they all talked about you on their episodes. [00:04:25] Speaker A: Well, we. I went to his. I went to his house about two, three days ago, and we all played board games. We played some. We played some social deduction games, and then we played this really cool racing game. It's a board game as well. So, yeah, we always have a lot of fun, all of us in the cast. [00:04:45] Speaker B: That's awesome. I love that. I love that y' all are actual friends and, you know, real relationships. Who's another person that you love in. Obviously all of them, but that you, like, have really connected to or maybe you didn't expect to get close with on the cast? [00:04:59] Speaker A: Oh, I don't think there's any. There's any that I didn't expect to, but okay, you know what? It would literally be like it's like Sophie's Choice here. Like, it really is that I could give you an instance of being close to absolutely every cast member that's on the show. So. So that this is not me picking favorites. Although there is a closer bond. There is a closer bond with this actor because of the nature of our relationship on the show is. I literally hung out with Abe this weekend, and we just wanted to grab some food, and then we. We actually. Abe doesn't usually play board games, so I thought I dragged him to a board game store, and then he bought a board game called El Paso because that's where he's from. So we attempted to bring it home. We opened it up, and it was way too complicated for us, so we just ended up telling jokes and watching silly videos all night. [00:05:57] Speaker B: So I love it. Yeah, you can give that. You can give that game to Jordan. [00:06:00] Speaker A: I'll give it to Jordan. He can sort it out. [00:06:04] Speaker B: That's awesome. Well, that's a James, John. You know, you guys have to. You have to be tight. That relationship's got to be legit, so. [00:06:10] Speaker A: And it is. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we. And the thing is, we act like brothers in real life. Like, we actually. We go shopping together. I remember once we bought the same jacket, but different colors. We bought the same shirt, and then one day we showed up and we were wearing the same shirt. This was, like, in Utah. There was some press thing we were doing, and we're like, you're kidding me. And then we both had kids at the same time, so our children are kind of now twins as well. So that is so cute. Albeit his son is slightly older than my son, which is also the case on the show. So if the show ever does a flashback, we're hoping in five or six years, they do a flashback to the house of Zebedee. And we just use Lev and Leo. And can you imagine? They will be little grandsons of thunder. [00:06:58] Speaker B: So cute. Oh, my gosh. If nothing else, like, for Halloween or something, can you just dress them up as the grandsons of thunder? Anyway, we just need to see that [00:07:05] Speaker A: photo as James and John. Yeah, I'll get, like. I'll try and get my costume, and I will, like, take a little section down the bottom left side and. Yeah. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Oh, that's so fun. Do you guys all live in the same area that you all get to hang out all the time? [00:07:23] Speaker A: No, not really. I mean, recently there's been some. Some crossover when we're not on set. Yeah, there can be some crossover. I'm in California, and Then, you know, apes between California. So, but it's when we're on set, like now, now we're preparing for season seven. Right. So Abe and I were on set because we're, we're filming the same week. But yeah, there's not actually a lot of the disciples here right now. So I don't know if that gives clues into season seven. [00:07:55] Speaker B: But listen, people can figure out context. That's good. [00:07:57] Speaker A: That's all. They're good. There's a, there's a bloke on YouTube who, who's, I think, called the Chosen Sleuth. And if I just said that, he will be like. And he'll just, he'll, he'll make a conclusion of that. And the, the fact of the matter is I just, I stuck around after the marketing week, so there's actually nothing to, there's technically no narrative reason as to why I'm here and they're not. But yeah, it's just because I chose. [00:08:22] Speaker B: But as you've gone, George, have there been any, like, lines or scenes that you've improvised or changed in the moment? Yeah, there was one kebab story that you told me. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there was that. Yeah, that was the kebab one. Is, is, is, is, is interesting because it was based upon, like, Dallas, Dallas giving me the note. And this, this really, this really helps. You know, I think having that dialogue between, between myself and Dallas with character, with John's character. I mean, I'm really fortunate that, you know, Dallas is, is, I think he's obviously invested in all of the, all of the disciples and all of the actors and all the characters, but it, it's a testament to him that, you know, he could, he could still spin and juggle all of these plates, if you will. And in this scene, it's basically John giving Judas some advice. And I thought, oh, this is a moment for John to be very compassionate and for him to kind of put his arm around Judas and he actually, I just watched the scene literally yesterday for something completely unrelated. And I, I, I was really glad to see that. The beginning of the scene is John kind of just doing some ordinary kind of work, some chores and stuff. He's like, providing food for everybody. And he double takes and sees Judas sitting on his own. And Judas has just. This is in season four. And Judas has just kind of pitched this big idea that we should expand the ministry and, and it falls on deaf ears. And so he feels kind of down and out. And so John's like, oh, I can see someone who's not feeling great. Let me. I'm going to go over and make them feel better. And I thought, this is like a spin moment. This is like John turning into, you know, this. He's going from this brat, bratty kind of character to this more, you know, this. This stepping into this leadership role. And, you know, Luke and I actually rehearsed this a few ways, and I said to Luke, we're going to do this two ways because I know that Dallas is going to want it one of two ways because we did one where we were really, like, together and Luke and I are really close offset. So we really enjoyed the opportunity for us to be looking at one another and being invested in John being very serious and emotional. And it was great. But then I said to him, we get. We're going to have to try this where we throw it away. And he's. And. And he didn't quite understand. And I'm like, I know. Look, we're probably. I'm probably going to get the note to throw it away a little bit because Dallas still wants John to have a bit of the thunder, a bit of that youthful energy. Doesn't want to be this kind of like, older head that is like guiding. It's. It's more guiding almost out of accident. And lo and behold, when we got on set, the note from Dallas was. Thought it was great. I would. I would still. I would want John to throw it away a little bit more. And I could tell what Dallas was saying. It's basically, John is naturally a compassionate person. He's not. He's not turned into this, you know, this guidance counselor. So I'm thinking of ways to throw it away. And I went, you know what I'm going to do? I asked, like, I don't know if it's props that give us this. The food. I'm like, you give me a rat meat, lettuce. I made my hummus. I made this kebab. And. And so I thought it'd be interesting if John was just, like, giving this very heartful, compassionate advice whilst eating a kebab. That kind of felt like if John was to accidentally kind of stumble upon giving some of the best advice ever, he would also have hummus dripping down mouth. And that kind of is this character. I think that there is a superpower there. And I think the. The very dramatic, obvious thing would be for the superpower to be front and center. But I think what's lovely about what our show has done and what would be maybe more believable is that this John character has learned this superpower, but doesn't quite know he's good at it yet. That's. That takes Jesus to. To show him that he has. That he has a knack for feeling people like feeling what they're feeling. Rather, he has a knack for, you know, maybe saying the right thing. He can problem solve. It's just that he had too much zeal and too much emotion. So, yeah, in that moment, I kind of, yeah, threw it away and I'm like, stuffing my mouth and Judas is probably trying to get this, and Luke is. They're both trying to get this. This advice from John. And yeah, he's just like. So, yeah, that was a bit of improv that happened. [00:12:52] Speaker B: But isn't that happen how it happens in real life? Like, I feel like the best advice I give. I mean, even just my kids, I have two daughters. And there are moments where I walk away and I'm like, I don't know where that came from, but that was really good. I, like, pulled it out of nowhere. But it's never when I intentionally sit down to say, let me teach you a thing. It's when we're in the car or, yeah, I'm like, putting makeup on in the morning or who knows what, you know? But that's. That's the humanity of the disciples. I think that's what makes them more realistic is like they're just eating kebabs and. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:24] Speaker B: Talking about life. [00:13:26] Speaker A: I'm trying to think that maybe John, with his. His early study of. Of ancient Greek culture and his study of the Greek language, maybe he was eating a gyro, as we call it in Greek. Everyone else there was call kebab. Maybe, but John was eating a yiddo and a souvlaki. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Okay. You really tapped into his, like, inner. Inner soul that. [00:13:47] Speaker A: His inner Helene, even though he's not Greek, but, yeah, he. He had a lot of. He's got a lot of links to Greece. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Yes. Well, you mentioned, you know, that John has these, like, sides. Like, we see him, he's fiery, and then he's tender, you know, son of thunder. And then he's, you know, like the loving disciple. What do you think John uniquely needed to learn from his time with Jesus? [00:14:13] Speaker A: I think that the simplest way to put it for something that I think people can, can, can learn whilst watching the show is that I think you can watch every disciple's journey and you can probably gain something out of that disciple. It's almost like, how are you feeling today? You'll probably be one of the 12. All the way up to the, you know, obviously the creative license our show takes with Judas where he wants to take matters into his own hands and he wants to try and get there quicker than what, you know, Jesus is, you know, is advocating. I think people can still learn lessons from that, but from. I think I'm very lucky that with James and John. I mean in the Bible we get rebuked a record amount of times or those characters, sorry, the. The Sons of Thunder get review, I think at least twice written down. You know, I'm sure there were many more that aren't in the Bible, but the disciples get, you know, talked to as well. But yeah, James and John are leading the way in that sense. Not, not a great title. But I think a lot of those times there it is a little bit of trying to take things into their own hands. But especially the, the incident, I should say of wanting to sit at the left and right hand. I feel like there's a lot of ego there and I feel like even Jesus's response, if I'm not mistaken, it is from scripture. I think it's, you know, not what you are asking or something like that. [00:15:39] Speaker B: Yep. [00:15:40] Speaker A: And I can't remember who's. Whose gospel it's in, funnily enough, not in John's. I love how he doesn't mention those things like that wasn't that important. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Don't worry about Matthew back there with it. He's like, I'm writing this down. Yeah, we need to remember this. [00:15:53] Speaker A: Not only that he tells Luke and Mark about it and John stop. But because all three of them mention it, I think. Yeah, but yeah, it's. It's basically a lot of. I think it's an ego lesson to. To remove the ego. And I think that that's again, that's something that's super helpful for people who are watching the show. I think that, you know, if that gets in the way, then who knows if what you are doing is for. Is for righteous reasons, let's just say. And so I think the main thing that John gets taught is not to seek titles, but to seek to serve, I would say. And I think that there is a moment that is probably not on camera, but at least me being in all of these scenes, in all of these rooms or all of these situations is at the Last Supper when Jesus gets down on his hands and knees and washes the disciples feet. And I think, I think that the message there again there is official scripture about how he articulates it. We know in Our script, if it's in bold and italic, it's from scripture, so don't get it wrong. Yeah, yeah. So that's where we can't, like there are some things like for me, I think it was Lord, who is it? Like I can't say, hey, Jesus, who, who's going to betray you? Like, I have to, I have to speak to Lord, who is it? Um, and the rest of it was creative license, but when me personally as John, watching him wash everybody's feet, it was, you know, if I can, if me, Jesus is here to serve, then all of you should be serving as well. And I think that's, that's the light bulb moment for John. And we actually, we haven't obviously shown season six and I don't want to give too much away, but a large part of John's journey that eventually leads him to the cross is all about him trying to serve as many people as he can. And so he wants to be close to Jesus, but he doesn't make that decision per se. He just serves as many people as possible. And then the last person he's there to serve, ultimately, as he blinks, he looks up, it is his rabbi. So he is exactly where he needs to be. And that came from surrender, [00:18:10] Speaker B: man. I'm like even picturing this, I can't, I can't even imagine how y' all filmed season six. I know it's gonna be so beautiful. But I, I love that you even mentioned, you know, ego. And I think as a cause, James and John are leaders even of the disciples. Right. Like, and I think that's such a leadership lesson, like the, the, the pride and the humility and I don't know a good leader, including myself, who has not had to learn that lesson multiple times of God being like, hey, we're going to pull back on your pride and ego and you're going to learn some humility and that's going to be the only way forward. Like you said, that's going to be the way that you wish there were [00:18:48] Speaker A: more leaders who showed, who showed less ego. But yeah, absolutely. And, and look, case in point, if, if, if Jesus is, is there washing the disciples feet, it's like literally if, if I can, if I can display this then, then you, all of you can. Yeah, it's a super vital kind of lesson and it's always going to help in day to day life and I really hope that audiences can pick up on those little lessons. [00:19:22] Speaker B: Yeah, well, George, I want to know, I'm going to kind of go back and forth between, like, you and John. But before being part of the chosen, what did spirituality look like for you or what knowledge, you know, did you have of all of these stories? [00:19:36] Speaker A: Well, I was, I was raised Greek Orthodox. So, you know, I, I knew of the stories. And there's, there's moments where I, I, I kind of know things on the show based on that. And, you know, we've got a lot of, We've got. Our cast are from a different. A vast array of different spiritualities and faiths and backgrounds. And so, you know, there are moments where I was surprised that I knew some things that other people don't. Like if we've got, you know, members of our cast who are, you know, Jewish background, they're like, oh, wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that. And, you know, it's like the, you know, Peter denying Jesus three times. I remember it at Greek Orthodox school. I went to a school that was a, you know, basically as a part of a Greek Orthodox church called San Spirit on College. And I remember us watching the video always at Easter time of, like, you know, I wouldn't. They're just, they're cartoons, you know, but it was always this, like, they sped through it. Nothing like ours show where we go into detail as to why everything happens. But the, the one that I always remember was the rooster crowing three times and Peter Deny. And the way the cartoon showed, it was just like, Like a soldier going, you know, do you know Jesus? And he's like, no, I don't. He's like, super. It was like, so obvious. So these are moments that I, that I knew of. But then, you know, one of my most infamous stories from the show is that when I got the role of John, I was kind of disappointed because the only John I knew in the Bible, as far as I was concerned, was John the Baptist. And I knew he died super early. So it's not like my background gave me, you know, like a head start. It gave me a base amount of knowledge. And then, you know, being on the show, you know, you know, filled in a lot of those, those gaps for me. But another thing I would say, I don't know if this is part of spirituality, but I, I meditate a lot, and it's just a way to quieten down everything around me and quieten down my mind. And I actually, I treat that as a spiritual exercise as well. I think the more in touch you are with that silence, then that's. There's more. You're more in touch with that higher power. And so, yeah, that's something that actually, I was. I was practicing just before I landed this job. So I kind of. I knew that there was some synergy between those two things. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that the cast. I know that there are fans of the show or critics of the show that don't love that everyone is not a Christian. I actually love it so much because you guys are actors. You are real people. You are not the actual disciples. I want to shake people sometimes, but I think it's just so beautiful. It makes it even more beautiful that you can all come together. And, you know, I had Yaz on recently, and the conversation with her was so beautiful. And she kept saying, I don't know these things. And she would talk about how on set she would go to somebody, Jordan, often, and be like, hey, what is happening? Because I don't understand, you know, whatever. And she told me that it was like, halfway through or a good part of the way through that she looked at somebody and went, wait, we're Jewish. And I just love that. And I love that she was vulnerable enough to share that, you know, And [00:22:56] Speaker A: I can just picture Yaz coming to that revelation on set. There would have been a large laugh, a big toothy grin. Yaz is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So that. [00:23:09] Speaker B: That. [00:23:09] Speaker A: That's. That's funny. [00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I laughed. I thought it was great. Well, in season five, John says he has this line. He says, I've been paying attention, and I'm starting to understand more. What do you hope this. That the viewers kind of understand more as they watch this show. [00:23:25] Speaker A: I mean, the thing that John's understanding there is, you know, it might be super literal. It might be something. As much as you're saying that you're not going to be here anymore, because that seems to be the one little last piece of the jigsaw puzzle that John's either refusing to hear or not getting. Yeah, it's a fascinating. Like the way that our. Our writers and our show have approached that particular subject because it is in the Bible, the fact that they keep missing it. And so it's like, how do you. How do you make. Yeah, how do you make this. How do you make this dramatically, you know, intriguing and realistic? But it is the fact, I think one of the most common analogies we use, and I actually had a really good one that I told Dallas, but it is. It is a. It is out of left field, but he understood it because it was happening in my orbit at the time. And it is a. It is a It is a silly one. And it's nowhere near. It's nowhere near as good as Dallas's ones. I'm going to look. Dallas's one wasn't good. It was sadder. But it's basically because I think it's better to use the sadder one because Jesus's situation is very sad. But his analogy was like, it's someone telling you, I've just been diagnosed with a terminal illness. And I've. I, I don't like, you know, I've got a. I don't have long. And so, you know, with your experience around people, you know, you know that it's like, you know, what is it? We're talking a couple of months or. And that's what they're. The, the. They're under the impression, I think John basically gets that Jesus is saying, yeah, it is, it is terminal and I will not be here anymore. Like, you have to hear that. And so the reason he's. He has to go is it's a sacrifice. That's what we find out in that scene where, Where John and Jesus are talking. He finds out, like, even John is kind of almost apologetic for everybody saying, we, we've lost you. Like, what. What did we do to lose you? And how do we ever forgive ourselves? So I think John's understanding in that moment is the sacrifice that Jesus has to make and the fact that he is going, the thing that the show deals with so well and something that I think audiences, you know, this is aside from a spiritual lesson or a theological lesson or even an historical lesson, is that they didn't think it was happening in two days. You know, like when someone says to you, I've got a terminal illness, the minimum you think is like a month or something like that. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Jesus is essentially saying, I have a terminal illness and tomorrow, yeah, I'm walking out the door. In two days time, I'll be gone. And they just can't see that and us as the audience, especially someone like me, coming from a Greek Orthodox background, I know how Easter works. He comes in on the donkey and it's T minus seven days or six days or five days, whatever it is, you know. So that's another thing that I hope audiences recognize that's purely from a human level, just to, you know, if you didn't know the story. Another thing that's interesting is try and find someone who's got no idea of this story and has never heard of the name Judas and see if they can pick who the betraying disciple is. Like I actually saw a video of someone watching it, and they had no idea they had been living under a rock. They must have been from a different, you know, background or faith. And they didn't know that Judas was the. And it was like a twist for them. They're like, whoa, what him? No way. And that's kind of how the. The disciples would have felt. So one thing I hope audiences do take from this is understanding what it was like in those moments. They didn't. You know, I always tell this funny story very quickly is that I remember once in season two, Jesus, season two. So Jesus is just a rabbi walking around and one of our background artists, when they saw Jesus, prayed and did the sign of the cross. And it's like, that hasn't happened yet. You know, like. And that's the same thing here, is that in Holy Week, we don't know it's Holy Week. And so that can also, in my opinion, if you are somebody who, who practices the Easter tradition and you. You do observe the week or the 40 days as Greek Orthodox people do, whatever moment of that you observe, let's just say it's Holy Week. Try and put yourself, as I say, in the sandals of the people who were there and just, yeah, try and take the temperature of what that would have been like. I mean, I don't know if that helps with the Holy Week. But, you know, they. They didn't know it was happening as quickly as it was. And it was a shock. It was a huge shock to them. And then the second thing obviously is John recognizes the sacrifice. So I think surrender is the second major thing. The same way Jesus is teaching John and the disciples about surrender, like saying to John, don't seek the titles. If there was something that you were meant for, it will be provided to you. Don't ask, don't, don't, don't demand it. Yes, just surrender and let it be. And so I think Jesus is also surrendering in that moment, and there is a sacrifice involved. So I think the. The idea, the image of him on the cross to me is the ultimate surrender. And, you know, obviously our show has, you know, other lessons that it wants to teach, but me personally, I think surrender, if people recognize that he's teaching surrender and he's performing the ultimate surrender, there's a really key thing there. [00:29:00] Speaker B: Surrender is so interesting because I think it's tempting to go, well, I surrender so that I can deserve whatever I'm looking for, or I surrender in order to earn whatever it is I'm looking for. Instead God is like, no, you surrender to become the kind of person that you need to be in order to be able to handle this thing that I want to give you. But when your pride's in the way, you're not ready for it yet. You know, when your ego's in the way, when you're demanding all these things. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Well, yeah, like, for example, again, not to give too much away from season six, but a leader needs to be in a specific space to lead. You know, so John wants to be this leader, and he wants to do that for Jesus. He wants to be one of those. These most important people. But he essentially is told to put that on the back burner. And John himself puts it on the back burner and says, you know what? Let me just forget about that. And I'm not going to try and grab the thing that I want. I'm just going to. What did Jesus say? Surrender and love one another. And so he just. That's. That's. That's his new MO and what ends up happening is we do know John becomes one of the leaders of the early ministry in early church. And, you know, again, I'm not, I'm not advocating for that being exactly how it's gone, but at least the journey in the show is, is that he, you know, in that moment, if he was trying to grasp to be the leader, then he would probably not be able to be there for Mary Mother, which is one of the things that, you know, we explore in, in our series. It's something that is in scripture, but the journey for getting there isn't explored. So a leader may not have been able to do that because the leader needs to be in a specific spot to make sure everybody's okay and, and right. John can't do that. So then if he was a leader, then he wouldn't have been able to take, you know, the care that he wanted to for the people that, you know, were around that needed it. So, yeah, you, you. I've got. I'm sure we all have those stories in our life where we were trying to grab something too, too hard and, and try to squeeze it too strongly that we actually damaged our chances of, of. Of being happy. [00:31:13] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Relatable, for sure. Did you and Vanessa talking about, you know, this moment with Merry Mother, did you and Vanessa intentionally, like, as you were going through the seasons, figure out, like, oh, we have to have our characters, like, lead up to this moment, or, you know, did it just kind of happen? [00:31:36] Speaker A: We had the scene in season two, in episode one, this Episode's called Thunder, and we do this flash forward moment. And yeah, I hadn't had much interaction with Vanessa at that point, but I remember she had just. She had a baby or something like that, or she had a young. Or she was maybe pregnant and she had a very young child. So I remember playing around with, with Olivia, which was her young, which was her child at the time. She's much older now. And then I, I obviously found a lot of joy and we, we found a lot of, like, a lot of kind of, I don't know, brought us closer in that degree, you know, even just talking about other things other than the show, like talking about family. I was asking her about what it's like to, to be an actor and have a family, because I was thinking about it back then. That was away from me. But then flash forward to season six. I've got my own son. And, you know, I'm asking Vanessa advice there. So I actually think that a lot of the prep was just the prep that a lot of us do on the show, which is, again, it's the surrender one. I think if we went into the show, we tried to manipulate it, who knows what it would look like? But instead we kind of just went, hey, let's just be family, which is what we did. I know that her, her two daughters became obsessed with Leo and Leo became obsessed with them. He kind of treated them as like older sisters. I remember an image of him. He's just, you know, just learned how to walk at Chosen Conversation. And Amaya and Olivia are both kind of like leading him around and he's waddling around our little cast green room and he must have remembered them from Texas because, you know, Vanessa and her husband and the children would come over to our place and Leo was crawling around back then. So I would say that that was enough. I'm actually a huge advocate for that for actors. I actually, I mean, you don't want to force it upon another actor, but maybe, you know, you can trick them. And by trick them, I mean just be like, hey, you want to grab a coffee? We just like hang out. That is, in my, in my opinion, acting prep. You know, I would highly recommend it because I think the relationship you have with the person is just going to bleed into the relationship you have on screen. So. [00:33:54] Speaker B: Oh, and it does. [00:33:56] Speaker A: It does. [00:33:56] Speaker B: I mean, we watching, we can tell that, like, y' all genuinely love each other and like, the relationship is real to an extent. I mean, it definitely comes through well [00:34:06] Speaker A: at the same time as well, Vanessa and I Because we have that really good relationship off. Off camera, when you're just like. When, you know, I'm like, give me one sec. I gotta change this stinky diaper. Like, oh, okay. And we laugh and then like, oh, yeah, I'll take some more, you know, iced tea. If that is the conversation that you have, then the conversation on set, which is like, oh, how are we standing? Do you want me. Did you want to mourn closer? Do you want me to be there for you? No, no, no, We've done that already. Why don't I stand back? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why don't you stand back and I'll go here and then I'll come back to you. These are the conversations you can start having, like the. The technical nitty gritty, which Vanessa and I, you know, we. We did. And, you know, it's you. You. You never want to, like, tread on heels. Some people don't like, you know, talking about the scene that meticulously, but me and Vanessa are kind of like, you know what? Like, especially in Italy, where it was so intense, we didn't, like. The continuity was difficult. Dallas had. And the team there were trying to converse with a foreign film crew. So there was just so much to keep track of that the actors were like, we better remember where we were. So Vanessa and I were each other's continuity. And then we were trying to keep it interesting. Like, Dallas keeps reminding us, we've been here for hours. So I'm not gonna, you know, sit there and brace the whole time. Maybe I'm standing back a little bit or, you know, merry mother's kind of paced around over there. And those conversations were really easy to have because we have this really great rapport. And that was the same with everybody, you know, same relationship with Liz and Amber and Sophie, who plays. Plays Martha, everybody there. We all have that relationship. [00:35:56] Speaker B: So, yeah, it just makes work more comfortable. Easier. You can. Casual. You can have these conversations, like you said. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, you know, there's. There's a degree to which. Let's just, you know, as much as I idolize someone like Meryl Streep, I think if she came on set, I'd be afraid I'd be like, I'm not going to ask you if I could stand to the left or right of you. Like, what's your good side? Like, I literally said to Vanessa, like, what side you want to stand on? She was like, this side. I'm like, cool, I'll stand on this. You know, like, I. If it's Meryl Streep, I'd be like, I think I. I'd rather be mates with you first before I start asking you technical questions, like, is this. Tell me where to go. [00:36:31] Speaker B: What do I do? [00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Is the sun hitting you in the eye? There's these things that Vanessa and I would talk about. It's like, yeah, the sun's like, there. That's gonna suck. Let's get an umbrella. Like, things like that, like technical things when you're standing for hours, you know, things to take care of each other. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah. One of my. Speaking of Vanessa and all the women that you just named, one of my favorite scenes ever in all of the seasons so far is the women around the Dianyu. Is that how you say it? Yeah, the Dianeu dinner. Oh, my gosh, it's so powerful. It's my favorite scene ever. But then also in the story, you are standing outside the window looking in and watching it happen. And I remember watching it, and I was like, this had to have been an intentional choice. So why do you think that. That Dallas did that? Like, what. What were he trying to communicate to viewers? [00:37:20] Speaker A: I feel like it was part of. I think I've got my own theories on it, I think. Sure. From a narrative sense. I mean, I hope that there is a lot of crossover between the two. I want to say that maybe from Dallas's perspective, but not only Dallas, there's also Ryan and Tyler are the two writers. I think the major thing there from a narrative standpoint is that John is. Is beginning to get what's happening more. Let's just say he's had that conversation with Jesus. He's probably trying to get information as to how soon is this. Is this thing going to happen again. He's never. He does not know that there's any such thing as Good Friday. So he doesn't think Friday's the day. He's trying to get information about that. And when he. In this instance, if I'm not. I mean, this is not. This is. This was a creative license event on the show. But you have to imagine that things like this are plausible, that if Jesus kept a ministry of women, he did have a last supper with his disciples, Passover meal. Maybe he wanted to say a version of goodbye to. Yes. You know, and so the Last Supper is when the men realize that this is what's going to happen again. They don't know it's the next day after, you know, the Last Supper. But I think this is the major device here, is for John to just be slightly. Because he's he's had that conversation with Jesus, like, let me just see what he's doing. And when he sees him having like a big meal with all the women like this, he's probably going, oh goodness. That's another sign that this is. If he wants to have a dinner with them, maybe this is happening like this week, you know, because he could easily have dinner with them next week. So I think the major device is to, to maybe to show John that Jesus is getting closer and closer to this, this moment that he's been talking about. Yeah, but the thing that I also want to want to believe in that moment is that Jesus did keep this ministry of women and that there was something that it was intentional that, you know, especially in that time, it was just. Was not common. It was, you know, women were oppressed and kept to the side. And you know, aside from fleeting examples, I don't want to pretend to know everything about history all over the world, but my own studies go. Ancient Sparta used to employ women in the, in the, in the army. So that was very like, respect. Like, at least in that time that was like, wow, you're giving a lot of, you know, rights to women. And like that's, you know, that was really big because other civilizations wouldn't do that. In, in, in Athens, you, you could possibly, you could study science or there could be some form of philosophical, you know, there was this also the, the, the, the worship of Athena as an era or Hera. So look, there were fleeting examples, but to keep a ministry of women that Jesus did and, and the, the references, again just using scripture, the references of Mary Magdalene being referred to by name and even in John's Gospel and obviously in the others means that there was no taboo. And so there's no taboo then that maybe there was a lesson in that. Maybe again, we're not saying there is, but again, the women are shown to be supporting the ministry even financially. I think there's a reference to Joanna in the Bible about. And in the same sentence is the way that the women were helping the Jesus's ministry financially. Yeah, just showing that, that, that tact. But if there is something to be learned from that, then then maybe Jesus wanted to keep a ministry of women so that there is this. What, you know, traditionally men are a little bit more, you know, physical. And you know, that that's, that's something that, you know, I don't want to assume that that's the primary emotion that men have. But, you know, women tend to be more sensitive and men tend to be more doers and physical. And so maybe John is getting an insight into what, what things maybe the disciples can learn from Jesus's female ministry. Be more like, listen more. Again, not the stereotype that women listen better than men, but maybe on average it's, it's. John is seeing how Jesus interacts with them. And again, there is this kind of contrast at the cross, where you've got the women are at the cross and the men are not. And Liz and I actually talked about this, and Liz had this great comment about, like, what would have happened if the men were there. Because we filmed the crucifixion and there was a lot of pushing and there was a lot of pandemonium. Yeah. And we don't want to assume it was like this, but the Roman soldiers just simply put an arm up to the women and just said, stand back. Because again, that's a little. It's the discrimination that existed. They're like, what are you going to do? I'm a Roman soldier with armor and a sword. What's this woman going to do? [00:42:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:39] Speaker A: So it was just a simple armor. And that's probably historically accurate, but if you saw 12 or at the time, 11 men charging with knives sheaved in their, in their tunics. [00:42:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:51] Speaker A: It could have been danger there. They could have been like, oh, we're going to get overrun by these followers. So there may have been some violence. So I remember Liz saying, like, what would have happened if the men were there? It could have gotten more violent. So I think it needed, I think it happened the way it needed to happen. [00:43:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:06] Speaker A: And I just find it, you know, that moment of John listening in and seeing that relationship that Jesus had with, with, you know, the female ministry, maybe that gave him the tools to be present on that journey to the cross. Obviously the women are there and John's probably maybe just understood slightly, oh, let's be here for Jesus emotionally. We don't have to be here for him physically. So that's what I took from it. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:39] Speaker A: Long winded answer. I'm sorry. [00:43:41] Speaker B: No, I love it. And I surprised myself sitting here getting emotional while you were talking because I genuinely, as a female pastor who is not like, co pastoring with my husband, my husband is not in ministry. I'm a pastor because God called me to be a pastor. But it is, it is still, you know, even in 2026, especially in the south where I live, like a unique or sometimes quote unquote weird thing. And so I do think that Jesus was intentional in what he was doing. And the Intentionality is something that I really appreciate about the show. It's not just the inclusion of women. I mean it's also the inclusion of, you know, they depict Matthew as like neurodivergent and it's just like all of the different choices in the, the, I mean, good night. The disciples are not all white. Like that already in and of itself is amazing. [00:44:30] Speaker A: No, absolutely. And I, I, I'm, I'm so glad you brought that up because it, it lets me know maybe I was on the right, the right, the right path in, in the fact that people, we, we want everybody to watch this show and feel touched and feel like that there is, that there is something for them because that was Jesus's message. You know, I know this is one thing that we actually talked about on, on set which was James and John actually get taught that lesson more than anyone. And it is from scripture. And you know, Jesus starts even in our show. I think, I think it's also apparent in the Bible. I haven't read it. You know, I don't know every single particular verbatim. But the way that our show kind of shows is that Jesus starts in Judea and starts with, you know, the Jewish people. And then he makes a decision we're going to now expand to, to Gentiles, you know, to outside and essentially saying now it's, it's this message is for everyone. And James and John are a little bit taken aback by this because they don't like people outside of their circles and so they want to rain fire down on the Samaritans. And Jesus rebukes them for that. And you have to assume that Jesus had a huge issue with James and John's prejudice against people that didn't look or act like them. There are two versions of that scripture. One where Jesus says to them this is not what we're here to do to, to well like you know that that is not who we are. Something along those lines. And then there are versions where his, his speeches is cropped out. But either way the fact that he rebukes them for, for feeling and wanting that it just shows that he was, he was, he was deaf, he was 100% an all inclusive rabbi. He. And so when you're telling me that you know, you a female pastor and you know that's still maybe not the most common thing and if it's, you know, maybe not as comfortable or whatever, then maybe these scenes in, in the Chosen where we are accentuating Jesus's female ministry can say that. No, sorry, yeah, I Think understanding and, and, and talking about what Jesus did can be for everybody. [00:46:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that is. I mean, truly, I'm like, I'm gonna clip this and just play it all around. That's what I really want people to understand about this show. Because, George, it's. So you can apply it to politics, you can apply it to race, you can apply it to immigration, you can apply it to what, Whatever you want to apply it to. But that is a lesson that right now I feel like the American Christian church especially needs to hear is that it's. This is not for people that look like you or live like you or vote like you. Jesus was. What did you just say? An all inclusive Rabbi. That actually is the lesson that so many people that think they know the scriptures actually need to learn. [00:47:27] Speaker A: So, yeah. And again, that scene with the Samaritans, it's like, if you, if you want to point to scripture, James and John, like, had a specific problem with the Samaritans, and Jesus did. Did not enjoy their discrimination. They didn't. He did not. He did not want to entertain that. And the fact that he expanded, you know, to, to all different people after that moment, not just Samaritans. I mean, that there are reports on. About Greeks and, you know, I think we actually have, as the Decapolis is a moment where there are, you know, people from different backgrounds all actually arguing with one another. And our show depicts that. Again, you know, probably some creative license there, but all of them talking about their different religious practices, the Greeks leaving food out for their gods and whatever. And Jesus talks to all of them. And at the time, the disciples must have been like, whoa, there's a lot of people here and maybe a lot of people I don't like, especially Greeks, I would imagine, because the, the. I think Hanukkah is one of the story, one of the seven days of Hanukkah, I learned from the show, by the way, is a battle. I don't want to misrepresent it, but a battle against Alexander the Great and them showing staunch defense, you know, in the face of Alexander the Great, who was trying to expand the Greek empire at the time. So, yeah, I'm imagining, you know, these, you know, ancient Jews sitting there going like, oh, God, he's talking to Greeks, my goodness. [00:49:00] Speaker B: And like, not them. [00:49:01] Speaker A: Well, then Paul's letters are to the Corinthians. You know, that's where my family's from in Greece, Corinth. Okay. So, you know, he's got his letters to the Corinthians and We see that the Greek Orthodox Church, early Byzantium becomes, you know, one of the, the, you know, one of the first voices of, you know, Christianity alongside the, the churches. Like, obviously there's Catholic church and yeah, there's a lot of history there. But yeah, it's obviously a lot of people were being included here. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I love acts in the epistles because that's what I love to see. That's my favorite part of scripture is when we see the message of Jesus gets spread to literally everyone. I love it so much. Yeah, well, George, you. You keep mentioning the creative license. And so I love the, that the holy imagination and also the unique, tiny little details that get pulled out, like Matthew always writing things down or, you know, every now and then there are these little things that make me laugh out loud because I catch it. I'm like, oh, this is like an inside joke, because I know that verse. So I want to know. I know you can't give spoilers, but as you're getting ready to film season seven, are we going to see the moment where John runs faster and beats Peter to the tomb on Resurrection Sunday? Do you know? [00:50:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I. It's funny. I think I may have accidentally. I, I sometimes accidentally answer this question, however, just to look. It's in scripture, so I'm sure people can assume that it's got to be in there. However, one thing that I'm just going to tell is that season one, we filmed the miracle of the fish. And there were two things that Dallas did. One of them was an instruction. The second one was just pure, like, what would you call it? Just pure planning, I guess, is that he. He. Then we had a different big James. His name was Cheyenne. [00:50:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Much taller, leggier, but he put Cheyenne in the water further down off the co. Off the, off the coast, in the, in the beach that we were filming at or the lake. And basically it's Peter and Andrew struggling with the fish, and James, John and Zebedee sprint to the boat. And then Dallas pulled me aside and said, look, you know, you're in the shallower water, but I don't want to assume. Not everyone is like a runner. I need you to get to the boat first. And I'm like, I'm like, I. I've seen the. I think I can beat the other two in a race. So there's that, my inner John. And he goes, well, just so you know, you know, in case you, you know, you need reminding, I didn't know this at the time. I had. I hadn't read through John completely. He goes, John. Actually there's a moment in John where he specifically writes that he is. He. He gets to the tomb first. So I want to kind of foreshadow that with this moment as a bit of an Easter egg, because, you know, I want, I want that moment to be recreated of John being quick. So if we're to believe Dallas from season one, which was eight years ago, we filmed that scene, you can, you can maybe assume that it will be in season. [00:52:12] Speaker B: I love the Easter eggs. I. Which is good levity because it can be so emotional to watch. And then something like that will happen. And I laugh out loud and I love it so much. So, George, last question for you. Because the podcast is called Becoming Church, you know, we're trying to equip people to take all the things that we've talked about, right? Like what is true Christianity? What was Jesus's way outside of their church buildings on a Sunday morning? How would you encourage the people that are listening to become the church to the people around them? [00:52:45] Speaker A: Look, I would never want to, like, I, you know, I wouldn't want this to replace any kind of theological practice or religious practice because I would never claim to know more than people who know more about this stuff than I do. But just as my own personal opinion, you know, because there are differing opinions on what church is and what it means. Right. For me personally, this could be, this could be a bias that I have being brought up Greek Orthodox, is that I feel this kind of, this stillness and the silence when I go into a Greek Orthodox church. And I'm sure the same thing is felt by people of all different denominations. So when thing when it's still and silent like that, I assume it becomes easier to hear and listen. So I would say becoming the church for those around you, it's probably stillness and being there to listen. And, you know, I think that could be a really, a really useful thing in today's day when there's so much division. I think we, we probably. If two people are yelling at one another, there's no time. You human beings are. We're savvy, but it's, it's, it is quite difficult for us to do two things at the same time, you know? [00:54:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:21] Speaker A: You know, you ever listen to a podcast and you're driving, like, of course you can kind of do those two things at the same time, but sometimes you'll miss your turn. And if you, if you concentrate on your turn, you'll miss the thing in the podcast. So you literally it's kind of hard to do both things at the same time. So to become, you know, a church for those around you maybe is. Is to be. Is to be still and then. And to. To listen. And if both sides are doing that, probably be a lot more silence. [00:54:53] Speaker B: Yes. And a lot more peace. I think that would be. George. That would be a brilliant thing to bring into the chaotic. [00:55:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:01] Speaker B: Sometimes really insane, noisy world that we live in. So. That's a beautiful answer. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here Again, thank you for redoing this conversation. Yeah, it's been a blast, and I hope that y' all have the best time. [00:55:16] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah, I start later on this week, so. Yeah, it's. It's. It's going to be, you know, an emotional season for more reasons. The one. Not just the content we're filming, but the manner in which we're filming it in that it is going to be. It's funny, I think I was joking with Jonathan. Was it with Jonathan? Maybe of. Yeah. Like, it's like, oh, he did. It was Jonathan. He's like, yeah, I just realized that's my. My last first day. And I'm like, oh, goodness. I said to him, are we going to do that for everything now? It's like, ah, yes, you are. This is the last Tuesday that I'm eating cereal with 2% milk. Tomorrow I'll use whole milk. Go around doing last for everything I get. Ridiculous, isn't it? But, yeah, for me, I'm. I'm probably going to feel that the last day we shoot. I'm going to reserve the rest until then. [00:56:14] Speaker B: Okay, good. It's gonna be bittersweet. Listen, we will all be sad. I already am. Like, no, I'm gonna miss my friends. Because we feel like we genuinely know [00:56:21] Speaker A: you all and we know that we know our audience so well because, I mean, it wasn't for the audience, we wouldn't be where we are. So I think all of us have gone on this journey together and, yeah, we all feel like family. [00:56:34] Speaker B: So beautiful. So beautiful. George, thank you so much. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:56:41] Speaker B: We are all like family. Doesn't it just feel that way when you somehow connect with people on the other side of a screen or microphone? I know. I feel the same way about you who listen every time you send me a message on Instagram or comment on a post, it really feels like we're developing true friendships. And you can feel even more connected to these characters from the Chosen by listening to my conversations with Yasmin Alboustami. Paris Patel, Elizabeth Tabish, and others in the other episodes that I will link up in the show. Notes if you know someone who's struggling right now to find a faith community, invite them to our Becoming Church Family. It's not an equal replacement for a local church, but I've heard stories of people finding their new church homes after listening to this podcast, so you never know what God will do when you share this with someone else. I also wrote a good deal in my upcoming book, the Other side of Certainty, on how to practically church shop or even know where to begin when it comes to looking for something new in church or Christianity, so you can pre order that as a helpful resource as well. And in the meantime, if you can't wait until October, just send me a DM until next time. Thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you. [00:57:56] Speaker A: Sam.