Terry Crist: Now You Can Stop Running

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church that the world needs. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Terri Christ. Terri is a fifth generation pastor at City of Grace Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Now, people often ask me for church recommendations. You guys want to know, how can I find a good church near me? How can I find a church that faces outward into the community and a church that actually lives out what it is that they preach? I'm telling you that Terry and his wife Judith are doing just that. I highly recommend checking them out if you are in the area. But today, Terri's here to talk about how and why we run spiritually and what we can do about it to finally find rest. He is full of joy and grace and light. So I just know that you're going to love my conversation with Terry Christ. All right, Terri, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Thank you. It is an honor to be with you. [00:01:11] Speaker A: We're so excited to have you. And thank you also for squeezing me in. I know that you are about to go on sabbatical, and so I appreciate that you took time to be with us. [00:01:24] Speaker B: Well, first, before we jump in, I just want to say how much I appreciate you and your ministry, your platform, the way that you steward really significant issues, and you do it with. With boldness and grace. So thank you for that. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Well, I appreciate that very much. Thank you so much. It's. [00:01:43] Speaker B: It's a word. Go ahead. [00:01:46] Speaker A: It's a weird world. I'm like sometimes, you know, trying to pastor and be online and be in the world, but not of the world. And that whole. It's attention. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Well, I'm watching you figure it out in real time and taking notes and eating popcorn. So there's that. But you're right, it's. It's the same for all of us. Whether you pastor for four decades, which is shocking for me to even say that, or, you know, those who are coming into ministry at this moment in time. We're navigating and we're learning and. And, you know, it's not the scripture, it's not the timelessness that we are trying to figure out. It's the timeliness. So we're working our way through it. But God's grace is sufficient, and I believe that he has good things ahead. [00:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. That's a. That's a word already. I like it. Listen, this is gonna be a good one. I can already tell. So before we kind of jump into the book. We are gonna talk about your latest book. And now you can stop running. But I like to have a little fun. Kind of let our listeners get to know you first. And so I wanna do a little. And since the book is now you can stop running, like, let's do a Q A on running. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:56] Speaker A: We're gonna get to know Terry, what kind of runner, if any kind of runner you are. So if right now I said you had to run either a Marathon, a 5K, or to the end of your driveway, which are you picking? [00:03:09] Speaker B: Can we insert half marathon into that options list? [00:03:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:03:15] Speaker B: And. And here's why. Because it's not nearly as far as a marathon, but it has the word marathon in it. So I'm going to go for a half marathon. I do run. The knees are a bit creaky these days, but I do run. And I'd love to run a full marathon, but that may be a bit ambitious. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Wow. But you've done half marathons before? [00:03:36] Speaker B: Well, I've done a lot of running, both spiritually and physically. Very few events with the actual number tag front and back. So, no, I haven't done a half marathon, which is why I'd love to start there. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Okay, perfect. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. I want to be a runner, but my body is sometimes like. Yeah, you don't. So I try. [00:04:00] Speaker B: I climb. I climb mountains. And so, you know, there's that. And I've done some fairly high altitude climbing up to 14, 15,000ft. So I kind of feel like when your lungs adjust to that, then coming down to, you know that whatever. Whatever the level may be, wherever we are, feels a little easier to walk at this levels. So that's. [00:04:24] Speaker A: That's fair. That's fair. Well, if you could have a dream either running or climbing. Buddy, we'll add that in. Now that we know that you're also a mountain climber, it can be dead, alive, fictional. Who would you pick with you to. To run that half? [00:04:42] Speaker B: I'm gonna go for two. [00:04:44] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:44] Speaker B: For the very same reason, King David and MLK. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And I think for the same reason that is that in both cases, their lives were really complex. We want our leaders to be all of this or all of that. We like neat, tidy boxes. We want it all good or all bad. We just. We're human beings and we categorize people and places and things. And what I love about both of their lives is they defy conventional. Conventional categorization. Get that word out and they really show us the grace of God embodied and the complexity of what life really is all about. So if I had to choose one, I'm going to go with King David, because I feel like that's the right answer. That's the biblical answer. But I'd love to have MLK on the journey as well. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Okay. And you really would need a half marathon, because that conversation, I feel like, would just, like you said, all the complexities, all the things to talk about and learn and. Okay, those are good answers, and I'm gonna let you keep them both. The conversation between the three of you surely would be fascinating, right? [00:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I play well from the middle, so, you know, I'm a type A leader. And, but, but, but I also play well from the leader. I'm from the middle. This is like, I don't know, the third interview of the day, so throw a brother a word here and there. But. So I, I, I, I feel like I'm a good team player. Just be in the middle of them, sort of deflecting and facilitating conversations back and forth. That might be really helpful for them, but certainly enjoyable for me. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Yes. Okay. All right, next running question. You're running into a gas station before a road trip. What is your go to snack? [00:06:33] Speaker B: That's simple. All sorts licorice. I picked up this appetite for all sorts of licorice probably 30 years ago on a ministry trip to London. And I'm addicted. And I know people have very strong feelings about this. Somebody once described it as licorice wrapped in toothpaste, which I'm gonna say is probably, probably accurate. I, that's in my head and I can taste that. But, man, I love all sorts licorice. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Okay, is that the bag that, like, some of them are pink and they're different colors. Right? [00:07:07] Speaker B: Different shapes, different colors. Yep, that's it. That's it. It's weird. It's weird. [00:07:13] Speaker A: I am not a licorice person whatsoever, but my husband is, so he can sit in the front with you. I'll be in the back with my Doritos eating something else. [00:07:21] Speaker B: I'd say beef jerky would be a second. So if, if I couldn't find all sorts, I'm going for jerky. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Okay. That's an excellent choice. If you. Would you rather run in extreme heat or freezing cold? [00:07:35] Speaker B: Hmm, I'd rather live in cold, but run in heat. It is hard to run in cold conditions. It's hard to climb in cold conditions, but. And living here in the desert, you reach a certain point where doing anything in the heat is just dangerous. But, yeah, running in the heat's helpful, I think. And look, that's sort of a metaphor for life. Most of us are running in the heat, spiritually, emotionally, as well. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, next one. I told you these are just quick fire just to get us started. So you're mid run and you hit like an energy wall. What song is going to hype you up to get to the end of that half marathon? [00:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's simple. And I don't have a backup answer. It is Eminem circa 2002. Lose yourself, lose yourself. Explicit lyric warning here. So be very mindful of that. That's my jam. That has been my jam forever. And I gotta tell you, it's weird, and I've never said this publicly, although my wife is acutely aware of this, but the biggest moments in my life from 22,002 onward, the biggest moments have been sort of christened by that song. I've listened on it, listened to it on my way into the White House. I've listened to it on my way into spiritual events. It is just. That's my jam. [00:09:00] Speaker A: I love that because I. I have said many times, if people listen. Knew what I listened to, like, when I'm writing sermons, they would be shocked because it is not worship. Sometimes it's like ragey music. So often it is explicit. But I need that, like, energy of like you're saying to kind of get me in the zone. [00:09:24] Speaker B: And I'm a worship guy, just. Just like you love worship as well. So I listen to a ton of worship. And. Yeah, you know, but I've got a pretty diverse playlist. But, man, if it's one go to song, that's it. Lose yourself. I don't even know where Eminem is. I don't know what music he's put out. I kind of. I kind of stopped right there on my journey with a brother, but. And that's still my go to move right there. I'm Slim Shady, that. Those were the days right there. Yes. [00:09:51] Speaker A: That's still how I picture him. Even if he has done anything else. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Same forever. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Locked in. [00:09:56] Speaker B: Same. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Okay, Eminem. Not at all who I thought we'd be talking about on this episode, but I love it. All right, last quick fire question for you. If your leadership was a running style, would it be. Would you be the pacesetter, a sprinter, steady and consistent, or more of like a walk, jog hybrid? [00:10:16] Speaker B: Predominantly, it would be steady and consistent. I'm a plotter by nature, but also leading a Church, leading a team. There are moments when you have to set the pace, moments when you have to, to establish the, the rhythm and you've got to motivate the troops and et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I'm a plotter, I'm a day in and day out faithful kind of guy, but when it comes time to go, I know how to go. So there's that. [00:10:43] Speaker A: And you've been leading this, your church for how long? You said you've been in ministry for, for 40 years. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Forty years. So my wife and I planted our first church at 19. There should have been an intervention, somebody should have tranquilized us, but we did. We did. And then from there we pastored that for about five years, took a church planting team, planted our second church, was there for about 12ish years, years, and then from there replanted another church with the team and have been here in Phoenix, in the Valley, as we call it, for 25 years now. So much of our life and ministry and family life and child raising has played out right here in the Valley. And from planting here, we then continue to expand with campuses and raising up leaders and sending them out and partnering with them. So we're serial church planters by nature, but we've been here for 25 years now. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Wow. And good on you. I can't imagine just the ripple effect of the different campuses and leaders and just the way that, that the way your ministry is just kind of like networking out into the world. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Well, there's something about, you know, beautiful about longevity for all of us, you know, doing the hard yards, showing up day in and day out, you know, and you know, it's bittersweet because people come, people go. You got to manage your heart, your emotions. You've got to forgive frequently and quickly. And you know, you've got resist being bitter and jaded and cynical. So there's all that. But the beautiful thing is that you see growth. You know, you're in one place long enough to, to dedicate children and then to marry them, perform their marriage, wedding ceremony, to baptize them, to be here long enough to see them have kids. And I love that. Seeing the generations come through and seeing the faithfulness of God throughout all seasons. [00:12:42] Speaker A: I love that. What is your favorite? And I didn't prep you for this, but what is your, besides what you just said, like watching people go, you know, stories and longevity and, and knowing them. What's your favorite aspect of ministry? As a pastor or as a leader? What is your favorite? Like what do you just love to do the most. [00:13:02] Speaker B: I love seeing people discover their gifting, find out what their kingdom purpose is. And it's, it's, I think, a beautiful thing. You can have people who have been a part of a faith community for years and years just sort of showing up, doing whatever their hand finds to do. And there's value in that. It honors God and it enhances the lives of other people. But, man, there's something magical about them discovering, this is my why and this is my what. This is what brings me alive to God and brings me alive for the sake of humanity, because that then makes the best use of their gifts and callings and ability. So I love that. I love looking back over the journey and seeing that there were people doing life with us and then they discovered their why and their what. And now we're all learning from them. Now we're watching them do what they do to the glory of God, and that inspires the rest of us as well. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Well, and that's really what I would. The heart of transformation is in the church. Right. I think when we often talk about transformation, we just think spiritual, like spiritual transformation. And it's good. We need to be growing people in their. In their faith. But, yeah, being able to watch someone figure out who they are and how God made them and then live into that is also such a big part of transformation. [00:14:25] Speaker B: Right. And that is one of the things that we can see sort of, sort of weigh and measure, and that's the big, you know, part of spiritual transformation. You can't see it and weigh it and measure it a lot of times. And for people in the business community, you know, they don't know how to evaluate it. What is the roi? What's the return on investment? You know, if you're in hospitality business, then you can measure beds that are booked in a hotel and, you know, guest experiences and. But, you know, when it comes to what we do, sometimes we grow the most during difficult seasons. So it's sort of hard to measure. You know, this is Bob, and Bob has grown this way spiritually over this amount of time. But I can sure see when Bob comes alive and when his gifts, you know, begin to work and when there's joy in his heart. So that's one evidence of fruitfulness, of transformation, when people discover their why and their what. And I love seeing that. [00:15:26] Speaker A: Well, and in the community of a church, too, is so important because not like the business world, it's not always like up and to the right, like people's growth. It's not steady. It's not consistent. They're going to grow, they're going to dip, like we all do, you know? But in the context of church community, I would think that would be a better place for that to happen. What. What does community look like at your church? How do you guys foster that? [00:15:51] Speaker B: It looks like friendship. Friendship with God, friendship with Jesus. I think that is the longing of the human heart, and I think that's the longing of God's heart to. To have friendship with us. That's what sin severed. It separated this friendship that our original parents enjoyed in the presence of God. And from that onward, we've been working to get back home. And the story of the gospel is to bring us back home into friendship with God. So I love seeing that play out in the connections around me where there's friendship, where we're not there reluctantly. We're not there because that. It's a sentence of death and doom and suffering and misery. But we're there because we enjoy it. It's not always easy. There are some really, really painful moments in that. But we're there because we are a family. We're a community bound together by the common life of the Spirit and bound by this connection with the God of heaven, who, as Tozer once said, is eager to be our friends. So I love that idea that we can have this true and abiding friendship in our communities and that be the outworking of the heart of God. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Terri, tell me your church's name one more time for the people that are listening that maybe are in your area. [00:17:12] Speaker B: City of Grace. [00:17:14] Speaker A: City of Grace. Okay. Because people are constantly asking me, where. Where can I find a church like Mosaic? Where can I find people like you? Where I live? And so I'm gonna just push all of the. The Arizona people your way. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Love to meet them, love to have an opportunity to serve them and connect with them. Our name really embodies what we believe deeply in, that as the people of God, we have been placed in the city of the city for. For the city that we're here to be good neighbors. We're here to embody and live out the gospel in a way that is practical and meaningful and enduring. But it all is because of grace. Everything we have is by grace. And anything that we might accomplish with God for His glory is because of grace. And so it's all wrapped up in our idea of being this city of grace. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. I'm going to throw one more at you that I didn't prep you for whatsoever, but I think part of the reason that it's really hard for people right now to find a church community, first of all, there's a thousand ways to do church. There's a thousand ways to be a Christian. So already we've made it complicated. But I also think a lot of people had a. I mean, church hurt is a very common term. People had an experience that turned them away, and so now they're hesitant or they've got their guard up. Do you think it is all connected potentially to a lack of grace in situations? Or maybe they weren't received in grace, and maybe that was the thing that was missing? [00:18:51] Speaker B: I think that's a great answer there. And I would sort of expand that to say that it's grace received, but grace given. So, you know, when we talk about church hurt, which is a very real condition, as you've well said, and one that leaders need to be very mindful of, and we need to be very careful not to be dismissive of, I think that the church and leadership in general historically has been dismissive of church hurt. So in the world that we're living in now, we become more aware of it, mindful of it, sensitive to it. But I think we also have to be careful not to form an identity around it, not to make it a false refuge that we find and then settle into. Because in doing that, we never find healing, we never find resolution. And our lives are forever marked by this moment of injustice that was perpetuated against us. And we can do that with anything, whether it is domestic abuse or sexual abuse. These things are horrific. They're not God's plan or heart or desire for humanity. They're not what leaders long to see happen in the lives of people. And yet, because we live in a broken world, we see these painful conditions, and in all of these, grace is available. Not a grace that is forced upon us, not a grace that says, take this and receive it and put up with the pain and just move on, but a grace that says you're invited into healing, you're invited into restoration. You're invited into an identity that is one beyond your pain, beyond the label that has been placed upon you by others or that you placed upon yourself. So I think that grace is what enables us not just to survive and endure, but to find this place of human flourishing. And that's what I long for people. I don't want to look back 20 years from now and say, you know, when people were hurting, when deconstruction was a thing that we were aware of, and Mindful of we did one of two things. We said, I'll get over it, or we said, let it define you. I want to look back and say we helped people navigate through that. We said, what you're feeling is real, what you are hurting from is accurate. And yet at the same time, this doesn't have to be your resting place. This doesn't have to be the end of the story for you. We want to invite you to walk with us. We want to come alongside you. We want to repent where we've done wrong, where we've contributed to this pain. And the fact is, Kristen, I don't know of any leader that entered ministry to hurt people. I don't know of anybody who said, I'm signing up for that I get to hurt people program. That's not what leaders sign up for. I mean, I'm sure there's an exception to the rule, but what happens over time is well meaning and well intentioned leaders become tired or jaded or cynical or hurt themselves. And out of a lack of rest and resolution and abiding in God become who they are. And so this hurt is perpetuated. And we have to interrupt those cycles, both for leaders and for followers, for those who have perpetuated hurt and those who have been hurt, and invite both into a place of healing, into a place of human flourishing. And then we can look back on this and say, you know, that really painful moment in the life cycle of the church and the history of the church was a redemptive one and the big C church has been better for having gone through it. I know there's a lot in there. [00:22:44] Speaker A: Come on, Terry. I'm like, no, that is so fantastic. It's so good. I think there's a lot of talk about deconstruction and I'm for it. I'm pro. Like, yeah, take apart the stuff that doesn't fit anymore or that doesn't actually sound like Jesus, like, let's get rid of that. But you just, you. I'm not going to summarize what you just said. You said it so perfectly. But I feel like that is a missing voice in the deconstruction space. Like you said, we go to one extreme or the other. So. [00:23:14] Speaker B: And we double down back to the boxes. We double down. So leaders double down and people who've been hurt and abused double down. And we never get to what God invites us into. And it is the fact that ultimately we're all both leaders and followers, right? We're human beings. And so once we Create these categories and classes, it becomes us versus them. You're the power holders, you're the abusers. And. And I do know there are. You know, historically that power has been held and inappropriately used in places. But fundamentally, we're all human beings in need of grace, in need of redemption, in need of forgiveness, in need of receiving and giving. [00:23:56] Speaker A: And the only way we can do it, which is why I'm sure your church has been so successful for so long, is in the context of. Of relationship. Exactly. Like you said, we have to invite people into the relationship. They have to be willing to go back and try again for the relationship, and that's how we move forward. Well, I feel like that was a good transition, actually, into your book. [00:24:19] Speaker B: I'm laughing because I have these interviews where we don't talk about the book. And I'm like, after we had a conversation, a lot of them. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah, no, we're going to talk about the book. We're going to talk about the book. It's called now you can stop running, finding the rest your soul desperately needs. So, Terri, tell us, tell the listener about this book. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Well, I wrote the book out of this idea that we are all running from something or to something. We're all driven by unmet needs, unhealed wounds, or we live in pursuit of holy longings, a better future. So it's sort of wrapped up in the Augustinian idea. St. Augustine said, Lord, we are restless. You have made us for you, and our hearts are restless until they find their place in you. So this book is my attempt to address those issues. Why do we run and what are we running toward? And I've discovered that in my own life, I've done both. I've run from things and I've run two things. I've run two things like kingdom, impact and significance and approval, hoping that if I did more or if I led better, that I would finally feel secure. I would feel loved and validated and needed and affirmed. On the other hand, I've run away from things. I've run away from pain, from grief, from the parts of my story that I really didn't want to face. And what I've discovered, Kristen, is that in both cases, whether we are running from or toward, whether it is a avoidance or it is ambition, that if we're not living anchored in God's love, it leads to burnout, it leads to ex. Just soul exhaustion. So I wanted to invite people into rest and frankly, to give them permission to stop running. Not because they've arrived, but because they finally trusted that God's love is sufficient for whatever it is that they are walking through. [00:26:22] Speaker A: What's something, Terri, that either as you were writing this, or you can just come up with, you know, from your. Your own personal history, something that you used to maybe run after, run toward that God told you, like, hey, no more chasing this thing. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Well, to be clear, I'm writing as a learner and an increasing practitioner, so I want to be very, very clear. You know, I've actually had friends who've said, you wrote a book on rest. You. You, bro. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. [00:26:53] Speaker A: I wrote it for myself. [00:26:55] Speaker B: There you go. There you go. And I think a lot of times our deepest revelation, our deepest revelation comes out of our. Our deepest need. So, you know, it's where we become mindful of the needs in our own lives, and we begin to work on them and we learn to name them, that we then have something to offer other people. And I think the most valuable lessons often come out of brokenness. Someone who has hit the wall, someone who has discovered how one hits the wall and how others can avoid hitting the wall. Their words carry the greatest weight. So I think in my own life, it hasn't been, you know, binary. It hasn't been this or that. I just lived running. And in the early part of my life, it was just what I did. It just was part of who I was. And now I can look back and see that so much of my story was my attempts to get away from the pain that I experienced as a child, the pain of sexual abuse, the pain of growing up in a home with good parents, that I struggled to meet their approval in a religious system that was very legalistic, that was defined by thou shalt not. And so through all of that, patterns were set in my life of avoidance, of trying to get away from so many things, and a behavior, what I would call a malformation. So we're all being formed, right? Being formed by something either into the image of God or into the image of other things, of idols and refuges and painful woundings. And then we're malformed in that. So in my case, it was the wounding that malformed me, and then also the idols that I accepted that are of no one's fault but my own, idols of ministry and what it might mean to build a big church and to be able. You know, it's always religious. You know, we want to help people, and, you know, we want to be an influence. But if I'm honest, there was a lot of unhealthy ambition mixed in with the idea of wanting to help people. So both in the avoidance and in the ambition, my life was formed and shaped. And it's been over the years in growing that I've been able to see the patterns. I've been able to name the brokenness, and I've been able to seek for the grace to address these things within my own soul. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Terry, I want you to talk more about the patterns because I think this is one of those things where it's easy for the listener or the reader to hear this and go, yeah, I don't need this. Like, I don't have a. I don't have a thing, you know, that I'm escaping from, or I don't have a thing that I'm running to. How would they start to even know if they were in a pattern? You know, like, give us a, give us a, like, eye opening moment here. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I would say we're all running. We're all running whether we know it or not. You know, the, the story of humanity, the story of history is humanity in flight from the Garden of Eden. You know, we started running, and we have been running. The Bible is filled with runners. Some were sprinters, others were marathoners. Some ran again from things and others toward things. But this is just the history of humanity. We are runners by nature, and that doesn't mean it looks the same. I wrote about the folksy wisdom of Willie Nelson who once said, still is still running to me. So in other words, that we may camouflage this running, but we're all still trying to get away from something and trying to get up close to something. So, yeah, I think that once you look through the Bible, you begin to see the story of all the runners. And I tried to do three things here, Kristen. First of all, I, in reading through the scripture, tried to identify a person who is running the issue that caused them to run and where that intersects with my own story, because I think those three things will then intersect with the lives and stories of other people. So what are some of the things that causes us to run? Well, guilt, shame, rejection, disappointment, trauma. All of these things set these patterns in our lives and these behaviors in our lives that may affect different people of different degrees, but they all affect us alike. And they may affect different people for different lengths of time, but they all affect us alike. And so the issue really becomes, did you resolve that issue in your life or did you stuff it? Did you find healing or did you develop coping mechanisms and I think for a lot of us, the person who would say, bro, I'm not running from nothing, I would probably say, I get how you feel that, because I've often felt that. But what I've since discovered is that I developed a coping mechanism. I lived in denial. And there's a big difference between healing and denial, between stuffing and coping and really experiencing the abundant life that Jesus died to give us. He didn't come to give us a life that is just meager and subsistence level, just eking it out, but he gave us true and satisfying life. And until you've tasted that and experienced that, you're living with a life that is far beneath what it could be. So whether it's shame or guilt or trauma or insecurity or anger or exhaustion or anxiety, I'm just reading the list. Or bitterness or indulgences or fear, all of these things are what we run from. And then, on the other hand, what God has for us is a life beyond our comprehension until we find it. And then we think, wow, why was I ever running? And how did I think that was living? [00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think coping mechanisms, especially after we came out of, you know, 2020 and 2021, we all picked up a whole new batch of coping mechanisms and just put them right in our pocket because we didn't know what to do with the world. I feel like a little bit right now the same Terri, where we look around and we're like, the world is on fire. So we need to cope. We need to be able to, like, protect our peace, in a sense. Do you think there's a way for people to tell when they're effectively using a coping mechanism and when it's become, like, more than that and they're dependent on it and it's actually blocking their healing? [00:33:55] Speaker B: Great question. Yeah. I think any time that it becomes a substitute for a relationship with God, for abiding in God. And by the way, all substitutes are not evil, but they're substitutes. They're less than they're alternatives. So in the digital age, we can run without leaving home. Right. Scrolling can become running. Just mindless. Real to real to real. And what I'm doing in that is, I'm saying, you know, there are parts of my day, parts of my story, parts of my marriage, my parenting, my life, they're just really too painful to face in this moment. So this thing that isn't wrong isn't bad. It's scrolling, it's funny, it's informative, it's whatever, but it becomes a substitute for something else. So I don't want to land here as a killjoy, but I want to simply say is that if these things become the substitute for abiding in God, the substitute for experiencing life and, and resolution and healing. So maybe here's one way to know. If you take away these substitutes, am I going to look for something else or am I going to be okay? If you take away the scrolling, am I going to be okay, or am I going to then quickly go back to. I don't have one, but let's say the remote control here, you know, or am I going to go back to, you know, whatever? So that. That can be a litmus test for us. If you take away this thing that I'm using to soothe or to medicate or to find some sense of identity, and will I immediately go to something else? And if the answer is no, then maybe it isn't a coping mechanism for you. But if the answer is yeah, you take away the, the swiping and the. The screens and the, you know, reels, then I'm going to go to the TV or I'm going to get in my car and just drive. And so I. I've been that guy in the past, you know, just. You just drive mindlessly, mile after mile, block after block, you know, and then you had that moment when you're like, how did I get here? You know, I've been on autopilot. I just, you know, so that. That's what I'm talking about. That's sort of a metaphor for how we live our lives on autopilot without living our lives really connected. And that all begins with coming back to the one who says, come to me and you can find rest. [00:36:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great practical. That people can immediately, I think, ask themselves that question and be like, oh, yeah, I'm good, or like, oh, shoot, maybe I should read Terry's book. So as you were researching, did you find a new favorite runner? Did you find a new person in the Bible that you were like, oh, I really like this person even more now, or that you connected with? [00:36:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it reinforced my connection to Jacob. So I have. I've long had this connection with Jacob. And if I can be honest with you, there have been seasons of my life where I've been embarrassed by it, ashamed of it. And that all started because that I heard an older pastor once say, whoever you identify with in the Bible tells us more about you than it tells us about them. And, you know, he's probably right. But I can tell you that introduced a little bit of shame because I was thought, okay, I need to upgrade my superheroes. I need to find people that are only holy. Which, there's a problem with that. [00:37:20] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:20] Speaker B: So that leaves one category. Jesus. Right? Jesus. You know, it's the old joke, you know, sounds like a brown squirrel, but I'm sure the answer is Jesus. So, yeah, so that makes it difficult to identify anybody because then it feels like, yeah, I'm telling you something, something about me. And I've had those moments where I've been, you know, a little less willing to identify with Jacob. But if I'm honest with you, Jacob, I have always identified with Jacob. And so I think for a couple of reasons, I think the more that I study his story, the more that I understand his family system. So Murray Bowen talks about these family systems that we're in and what a family system can look like. And I. If you've not done any study on family systems theory, then it's good to just read a little bit on it because you discover that we all arrive here by way of a system, by way of a family that formed us and informed us and find us and makes us who we are. And so much of healing is discovering I'm now in the family of God, as is contrasted by the family of origin that I was born into. So all of humanity, two federal heads of humanity, Adam the first Adam, or Jesus the last Adam. So we're going to find our identity in one or the other. And so for me, in the family of the first Adam, in Jacob, I saw a lot of my own family. His father was once described as the most passive of the patriarchs. And so that shows up in my family. I discovered that in Jacob's Life, Jacob was 77 years old. Before that, he made the play for his birthright. So think about Jacob and Esau and the bowl of porridge. The brother is 77 years old. Grandpa is wrestling for his birthright. [00:39:20] Speaker A: I thought he was like 15. [00:39:23] Speaker B: So did I. I thought he was in his teens. I thought he was in his 20s. You know, you think of him and his brother. No, Chad Bird illuminated my understanding of this. 77 years old. Chad did the research on the years of Jacob. And of course, I get the fact that lifespans were longer then. But listen, the point. The point of that is this. We don't naturally outgrow some things. We don't just grow old and grow out of the things that we don't work on, the things that we don't address the things that we don't face and name in our lives don't go away. The years make us harder. The road makes us more bitter and entrenched. It's only what we work on. So this was big for me because honestly, Kristen, I thought there were some things I'm just going to grow out of. [00:40:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:16] Speaker B: And I didn't. I didn't grow out of youthful lusts. They just became middle, ageless. And I'm not old. I just turned 60. But I can see that if I don't address them. So think about the leaders in the church that are. Are going down in flames in their 50s and in their 60s. Why? Because we thought we would just outgrow this. The pain, the hurt, the lust, the ambition, the whatever, the fear, the insecurity. We only outgrow what we name and address, what we bring to Jesus. And bringing to Jesus may mean sitting in counseling. It may mean bringing it to him in the voice of someone that can help us make sense of it. So Back to Jacob, Jacob, 77, where he wrestles with this issue of insecurity, wanting his father's approval. His brother has gotten the approval. He's never measured up all of these things in his life that I can identify with in my own life. And, and if I could even just interject here, I. I thought as a leader, that I would reach a certain place where that validation would come through accomplishment. And it never came. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:39] Speaker B: So when I was a young pastor with the church of 80 that I was serving, I thought, if I had 800, I'm gonna feel better about myself. When I had 800, I didn't. And then I thought, if I lead 8,000, I'm gonna feel better about myself. And when I got to that point and I was serving 8, 000 people on Sunday morning, still me. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Still not enough. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Yeah, still. Still me. Still at home, alone, insecure, dealing with shame, wrestling with issues that I kept, you know, bottling up. And so it was really coming to the discovery that time doesn't transform us, grace does, and accomplishment doesn't make us different. I sit with a lot of people as you do that are highly accomplished. You know, I've been privileged to pastor professional athletes and supermodels and national news anchors and, you know, people that we all see and know. And I've discovered, you know, that platform doesn't change what they wrestle with and. And are working to resolve. So I think for all those reasons, Jacob. But what I do find is that God loves him despite all the funk, despite all the junk, despite all the mess, despite all the dysfunction, God loves Jacob. And even when God gives him a new name, you know, there's this moment in time where God comes later and says, jacob, have I loved? Well, wait a minute. He's got the new name, the new nature, the new identity. But it's all mixed together. It's running with King David in mlk, running with people who did had a heart after God. And at the same time, there are parts of their story, in their marital brokenness and in their sexual sin that make it all this. This giant hairball. So God loves us through it all, there's grace for us to find forgiveness and healing and redemption. And at the end of the day, how are we ending the story? Not where did we start the story? Not what has it been like along the miles of pounding pavement, but how is this story going to end? And I've just simply said, by the grace of God, I'm going to end this story a lot happier, a lot healthier, and a lot holier than I started it and I've been over the years and throughout the miles. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you very much. [00:44:01] Speaker B: You didn't want sound bites here, did you? [00:44:04] Speaker A: Yes, Brad. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Loving it. This is because I'm not giving you sound bites. [00:44:08] Speaker A: You are. You. You are. There's multiple places where I'm like, I'm gonna take this. I'm just gonna drop this on a Sunday. This is a whole sermon already by itself. [00:44:16] Speaker B: No, I'm not a Twitter guy. [00:44:18] Speaker A: Thank you for being so honest also and just real and raw. I think, again, to your point, it's easy to get behind a microphone, behind the camera and just talk about the accomplishments and the easy things and the success, but the listener is really going to relate to and understand. Like, no, actually, we don't have it together either. We're all still learning and figuring it out. So thank you. What is. As we kind of start to wrap up here, Terri, I know you talk a lot about rest also, that, like, it's not just stopping the running, but also finding rest. How can people practically, even if they're like, feel like their. Their wheels are spinning. What's something that they can do practically today to try to start pursuing rest? [00:45:07] Speaker B: I. I want those who are watching to know above everything that rest is a person before it is a place. Rest is a person. So I love places where people have places and spaces and I connect with them. And, you know, God knows how we are. And so he gives us these places to form and inform us. But. But Ultimately, rest is a person. The one who said, come to me. And I love how Eugene Peterson paraphrases or translates thought for thought. Matthew 11, you know, are you tired? Are you worn out? Are you burned out on religion? You know, come to me and I'll show you how to get away and recover your life. So that's really what I'm saying to people, is that I want to give you permission to stop running. I want to invite you to know that Jesus is what your heart is longing for. But if you don't know what Jesus offers, you might not take advantage of who he fully is. So when it comes to rest, I think it's a little like, let's say, physical healing. If I don't know Jesus still heals people today, I'll never look to him and say, lord, would you heal me? Would you heal my heart disease? Would you heal my high blood pressure? Would you heal what? Whatever it is. But in knowing that he is a healer, I can then approach him on the basis of faith and say, lord, would you heal me? And I'll glorify you through my healing. In knowing that he's a provider, I can come to him and say, give us this day our daily bread. And so in knowing that he is the one who provides soul rest, I then can come to him. And I think for a lot of people, we just make these wild assumptions that in becoming a Christian, in surrendering to grace by faith, that we just get the whole thing downloaded. And then when we're not feeling all of these things, then maybe we didn't get the same thing as someone else did. Maybe God hasn't given to us what he's given to them. But what I want friends to know is that we've been given these things. We've been given everything on the basis of the gospel, everything that pertains to life and godliness, to human flourishing in this age and in the age to come. But I can have this deposit deep within me and not take advantage of it, because I don't even know what is living within me, the incorruptible seed of eternal life. So by seeing this, I then can access it. I can say, okay, you are the healer, and there is healing on the inside of me. And so I'm asking you now to reveal, to express, to manifest that within me and through me. So when it comes to rest, I want people to know, first of all, that he is a person. But when we can access the person on the basis of some things. So what I attempted to do was to line up. Yeah, hold up coordination there. So there's a system there that works in my OCD world. So the. I've tried to line up the person, I've tried to line up the provision, and I've tried to line up my story, which as I said earlier, I think will intersect with other stories. So at the end of every chapter, there's also a practice. And the idea is if you are struggling with bitterness, this practice might be helpful for you. If you're wrestling with shame or if you are one who has lived in pursuit of defining yourself by your network. You know, we all at times define ourselves by self worth and by net worth. And so maybe you would say, you know, I came from a great home and I don't really recall any pain points, but man, I've lived in pursuit of accomplishment and possessions. And so that's a false refuge. You need to identify that that isn't what truly satisfies you in a way that God longs to satisfy you in. So at the end of every one of these chapters is a practice, and the practice might be journaling relative to that issue, breathing relative to that issue, memorizing scripture relative to that issue, forgiving relative to that issue, accepting forgiveness relative to that issue. So throughout the book, I invite the reader into these places and some may need to practice three or four of the practices, but for you may only be one that you need to practice. And my hope is that as you do that, you become more mindful of what God has provided for us in and through Jesus. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you for all of the practicals. I think it is good for people to know also if one of them, like, if you try journaling and you're not a journaler, don't journal, do something else. You know, I think we get so stuck on spiritual practices, it's like, oh, I have to do all, all these things you really don't. Like, if you're in a season where you, you can't sit down and read your Bible, pop it in a, you know, let, let somebody read it to you on an app. [00:50:20] Speaker B: Like, I love that. I love the practicality of that and that that's the God that I know who devises means so that the banish be not expelled. He devises means to get us home, to get us back into friendship. So I, I love that idea. Don't wear Saul's armor as he, you know, cliche might be. Don't try to do something that isn't working for you. There's enough that can work for you. Find that there's grace in that for you. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Terry, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:51:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I would encourage people to lean into being loved. Lean into being loved. You know, the beauty is that everything is fulfilled in love. The law is fulfilled in love. And in being loved, well, we can love well. And sometimes we are trying to minister out of the lack in our life, the deficit in our life. And we say, I don't feel loving. I don't feel forgiving. I don't feel friendly. I don't feel welcoming. I don't feel hospitable. I get it, I get it, I get it. But if you lean into those things, things, then those things present in you begin to flow through you and become a resource to the world around you. So lean into being loved. The more fully that we know we are loved, the more rested our hearts are, the more aligned we are with God's plan, and the more that we flourish in community and become good neighbors to the world around us. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Yeah, my whole. I mean, this is a. We don't have a conversation. We don't have time for, but my whole world changed when I was able to finally accept, like, not just the head knowledge that God loved me, but actually believe it in my own heart. It. I mean, it changed everything about the way that I live. So love that answer. Terri, thank you so much for being here. We will link up your church so that people nearby who are looking for a wonderful community can find you or find you online. We'll link up your book. Is there anything else you wanted to say? [00:52:30] Speaker B: I just want to say, keep preaching fire. Keep standing for truth and justice. Keep doing what you do. Love to have you come speak to our church here in Phoenix and we can talk about. Talk about that offline. But yeah, it's been an honor to be here. And I would say to those watching, love to have you pick up a book, but. But also, if you're ever in Phoenix here on, you know, a holiday weekend, pop into City of Grace and come up and say, hi. I'd love to have an opportunity to shake your hand and serve you. [00:53:03] Speaker A: Okay, well, I guess I'm going to Phoenix, so let me know if you're in the area. Also, if you have a church that you love in the city that you live in, will you let me know what it's called and what your church is uniquely about? I'd love to, love to be able to serve people listening in whatever city or country they're living in with that resource. If people are genuinely looking to come back and to heal from previous church hurt, and we're seeing that they are, then let's do what we can to help them find the genuine love of God through human relationship. Also, be sure you're following along with me @KristenMochler Young on social media because I want to know who it is that you identify with from the Bible. Be on the lookout for that post this week so you can join in on the conversation. Thanks so much for listening, and until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around you.