Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Have you ever realized that you've accidentally become someone or that you're accidentally doing something you didn't realize you were doing?
What if you realized that you're actually treating God wrong?
I'm Kristin Mauclar Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians and but about becoming the church. Each week, we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus. My guest today is Pastor Ryan Loxmo, and he's going to help us better understand who God is by realizing who God isn't and how he's different from all of the other gods out there.
Also, he'll help us to see how a misunderstanding of God can lead us to worship him inaccurately.
But before we jump into that conversation, I want to invite you to join my substack, where you'll find a new bonus question for every episode. Because you're a loyal listener of Becoming Church, there's a special link just for you in the show notes, which gives you a discounted subscription rate.
Hey, Ryan, fellow pastor in the Charlotte area. Welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: So great to have you. Listen, we're going to get into your book in a second, but I will tell you, the second that I saw the title of Accidental Pagans, I was like, yes, that is a book I want to read. And I get all kinds of books pitched to me, you know, emails and whatever. And I was like, this one is very interesting.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Oh, I'm glad you feel that way. Yeah, I was. I was excited when we settled on that title a while back, before I even started writing it. It just felt like it captured, you know, what I was hoping to write about. And so I'm glad you felt that way, that it kind of grabbed your.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: Very, very intriguing, very intrigued. Well, before we get into it, I like to start with a little fun. So we're going to do a little, like, quick fire Q and A. Okay.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: All right.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: There's no wrong an. And they don't have to be holy. You're in at all.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Loosely based off of your book concept.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: All right. So Accidental Pagans. What's something that you've accidentally become?
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Accidentally become? Yes, I have accidentally become a morning person through.
Maybe not accidentally, but unintentionally. I suppose having kids will do that. I. I'm. I'm still a night owl, but when we had our son, now 13 years ago, just violent shove into morning person, whether or not I wanted to. So now My definition of sleeping in is quite different from what it used to be. So I can function in the morning. I didn't used to be able to. I will stay. I'm still a night owl at heart, but I masquerade as a morning person.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Okay, well, how old is your youngest child?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Nora is 11.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Okay, listen, our kids are almost the exact same age. My oldest is about to be 13.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: And. But I feel like I'm getting the mornings back because she doesn't get up anymore. Like, now. She just. She's probably still asleep right now while we're recording.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Oh, that's amazing. I'm waiting for that. That's like the promised land. I know it's coming.
You're on the. But it's not quite there, so I'll pray. Pray for that.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: All right, well, you do a bit of untangling in your book. And so I would say, what's something that you can't untangle or maybe you feel like you can't get right no matter how hard you try?
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, Many things.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: This is like, such a low level, mundane, ordinary life example, but it just happened recently. I cannot get right how early I'm supposed to be at my house when someone's coming to, like, fix something or deliver something. I'm either sitting there for seven hours waiting for them, or I'm scrambling to get there because they're like, we're on our way and they're going to beat me there. I cannot figure out the right thing. So I would love to figure that out one day.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like that. That's very relatable. I think. That's very.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: All right.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: You also talk about people's fears in this book. What's an irrational fear that you had as a child or, I don't know, maybe you still have today?
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
Irrational or rational?
[00:04:05] Speaker A: Either one.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: So a fear that I have a very vivid memory of having was a fear of eternity.
Like, I. I have a very specific memory. I was probably four or five, and actually, like, my parents had put me down for bed and. And I was just crying, and my dad came in and said, what's wrong? And I had been thinking about heaven. Okay. And obviously I was happy about the idea of heaven, but the idea of something going on forever and never ending, like, overwhelmed me. It made me afraid. And I remember him comforting me and just saying, you know, it's not something you can understand in this life, so it wouldn't feel the way you think it would feel. But I think it was just A reflection and probably a church. I was learning about these things, and it was a strange fear of, like. Even though it sounds amazing, I just could not envision the notion of something not ending right. And so it kind of. I think it was probably my first encounter with, like, eternity, the grandeur of God, you know, heaven, eternal life. And it just overwhelmed my little brain.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: I think that's fear. It's a hard concept to grasp. Yeah.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah, still is. I don't feel the fear, but at that age, you know, your categories only take you so far, so.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: All right, well, last one for you here. Ryan, before you jump into the book, you talk about discovering, you know, who God really is, but I want to know, if you could discover a new ability within yourself, what would you hope that it would be?
[00:05:43] Speaker B: A new ability? You said we're keeping it light on this section, so I'm going to continue keeping it light. And. Because there's many more serious abilities I'd love to discover. But one. One thing. And my wife would chuckle at me bringing this up. I would love to discover the ability to enjoy being outside when it's hot.
I really don't. And I'm from Texas, so you would think I would be used to heat, and I would have gotten accustomed to it. I don't know if it's my Norwegian heritage, but I just can't. It is very difficult for me to enjoy being outside when it's hot and going to the beach. Those kinds of things are really hard for me, and I really wish I enjoyed it. I look around, seeing everyone else having a blast. I'm like, that would be great if I felt that same way. But I'm, like, counting. I'm counting the days until the leaves change. We can go to the mountains or something like that, which I really love.
But, yeah, I would love to discover the ability to look forward to being outside when it's hot and just enjoying summer. But that's the challenge for me.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Listen, I know it's not Texas, but you are still in the south, so keep working on that one, Ryan.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: I know. I need to. I know.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: All right, well, we're going to jump into the book. I've got it right here. Accidental pagans untangling the roots of our fears about God and discovering who he really is.
And so I think that pagan is one of those words that people read, and they get to it in scripture and they maybe aren't even exactly sure what it means.
Yeah, so tell us what it means when it shows up in scripture and what it means today, if it's different?
[00:07:13] Speaker B: It's a great question.
The word pagan is actually not used that often in scripture. Jesus does use it a couple of times.
But the best way to think of it is that paganism is a word that describes pretty much all the religious cultures surrounding ancient Israel and early Christianity.
So in the Old Testament, when you're talking about the religions of the ancient Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Mesopotamians, in the New Testament, you're talking about, you know, the Greco Roman pantheon, and basically they're all polytheistic. So. So those ancient religions that worshiped the many gods and goddesses, that. That's ancient paganism.
Paganism. In the modern world, there, there actually is, you know, neo paganism, there are like little religious sects that view themselves as kind of the inheritors of ancient paganism.
That's not what I'm focused on in the book. What I'm focused on the book is how in the 21st century, we Christians kind of accidentally act like pagans. We are not pagans if we're Christians, but we can kind of act like the ancient pagans did in the way that we engage with the Lord and what we imagine, he's like.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Yeah, so, and I, we're definitely going to get into the how that happens, but before we do, because I just want to, like, establish this for people. Right, because you also compare, like, God, our Lord to other pagan gods. And so what's the biggest difference that you want people to see between our God and these pagan gods after reading your book?
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Well, I think that probably the first place to start is that the God we know, the God we serve, the God we discover in the Bible and in the life of Christ, is a God who loves us more than we could possibly imagine. That we are his. His most precious creation.
And we could spend every second of every day of our entire life trying to imagine how big God's love is for us and get nowhere close.
And in ancient paganism, there was not that feeling at all.
Ancient pagan worshipers had no assurance the gods even cared. And in fact, in the ancient myths, not only do the gods not necessarily care, they're annoyed by humans.
Mortals are kind of these pests to be toyed with or gotten rid of. And so there was no assurance of the God's love. And it created a ton of fear in ancient worshipers. They had no idea what motivated the gods, what they were going to do. And that's another piece to your question of what I hope people come away from the book with Is number one, God's unimaginable love, which is not what paganism is, but number two, the steadiness of God's nature, his ever presence.
You know, that he is not this fickle, unpredictable deity who you've got to try to almost manipulate to get on your side or try to try to manage. The ancient pagans, that's what they were doing constantly. They were constantly just trying to stay on the good side of the gods, not knowing if they were. And so there's just this constant anxiety. And we as Christians don't have to live that way, but so many Christians do.
So many Christians imagine that God is distant, fickle, unpredictable, volatile.
And we overlay that again, that kind of accidentally pagan view onto him and it makes us live a life of faith that's rooted in fear and we don't have to.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. I like that you listed all these things. You're like, here's what God is not.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: But there is a lot of talk of fear, right? There's a lot of talk of like fearing God or the fear of God, I think, especially in the Old Testament, which is another one of those phrases that I think confuses people when they're reading scripture. Right. So what does this mean? So what's the difference, Ryan, between like fearing God and being afraid of God and so then feeling like we need to do things to keep him happy?
[00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question.
And the way you just said it is a good way to make the distinction. There's a difference between fearing God and being afraid of him.
And I think that fearing God in the biblical sense is, you know, just reverence, it's awe, it's respect due to him as the almighty creator. Almighty creator of the universe and creator of ourselves.
And so that kind of reverent awe that we're meant to have and respect for him as God. That, that I think is the kind of Old Testament sense of fearing God. And we are called to fear God in that way. Yeah, but we're not meant to be afraid of him. I think to be afraid of God is to not trust in his goodness. It's to not trust in his presence.
It's to interact with him in this transactional way. I'm trying to get this in my life.
I'm not sure if God loves me or if he's paying attention.
So I'm going to act this way or refrain from this behavior. And maybe if I do that well enough, he'll take note of me.
That's Very similar to how the ancient pagans interacted with their deities. I've just, I've got to pull all the levers, do all the right things to get God on our side. Because you don't trust in his goodness, you don't trust in his love, you don't trust in his presence. There was no assurance of that in ancient paganism. So we are called to fear God? Yes, but in the sense of awe and reverence, not in the sense of being afraid where we don't trust his presence, goodness and love.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: So I've never done a word study on that. I probably need to.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: Like, that would be a good one
[00:12:57] Speaker A: word of, like fearing God. Like what, like what did it actually mean?
[00:13:01] Speaker B: Right. So much gets right. It gets lost in translation in English.
So many things do. And, and you know, there is a little bit of, of, I don't know what word to use. Trepidation in the sense of like, like if you were all of a sudden whisked into the presence of some world leader or something, you know, all of us would feel a little like, whoa, you know, like it would almost, you know, it almost take our breath away a little bit. Yeah, that is a good sense of fear. Like, like I acknowledge who I am not in this person's presence and who that person is, and imagine that scaled up infinitely, but also knowing that this individual loves us beyond comprehension.
It's something in that range that we're supposed to grow toward feeling.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really great analogy and something that I think people can really put themselves into, you know, that, that kind of scenario.
So it sounds like to me you're saying that people who maybe have found themselves as accidental pagans. Right? Maybe like accidentally pagan Christians, it's not that they have rejected Jesus, but maybe their fears are leading them to believe things about God that aren't tr. Right? Is that what you would say?
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Exactly. Okay, yeah. I'm not suggesting they're not real Christians, they are Christians, but they're kind of the way they're going about being a Christian accidentally resembles how the ancient pagans interacted with their God. So it's not a rejection of Christianity or anything like that. It's just, well, you're missing out on the relationship that Jesus paid the highest price for you to have and instead you're interacting with him in this very lesser, fear driven way. Why would you do that? So it's, it's in that way that I'm using it.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Do you think? I think that everybody has either different versions of God or maybe multiple versions of God in their mind, depending on, you know, how they were raised or what the scenario or the situation.
Do you think there's maybe a particular version of God that people are afraid to surrender to or connect with?
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Hmm, yes, I'm sure there's multiple.
At the risk of sounding a little over simplistic, I think people struggle to surrender to the version of God that disagrees with them.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: So talk more about that.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: You know, I think it was Tim Keller.
I'm paraphrasing this. And if it wasn't him, my apologies, but I think it was him who said, if the God you worship never disagrees with you, you might just be worshiping an idealized version of yourself.
And I think that's what I mean when I say the part of God that disagrees with a person, like theologically, temperamentally, whatever it is, that's the part that's hardest to submit to. So, like, some Christians really gravitate toward the kind of like triumphant people of God narratives in the Old Testament, the, the. The war, you know, the conquest narratives, all those kinds of things where it's, you know, God's people versus the pagans and, and that kind of, again, kind of triumphant defeat sort of way that God worked at that time. They love that. And so the part that they disagree with or find it hard to submit is maybe in the New Testament where they find Jesus's gentleness and they find grace.
You know, I'm supposed to be salt and light. They, they can perhaps feel like that's a little too soft, like, no, no, no, We're. We're God's people. We're supposed to. So they find it hard to submit to the gentleness part of what it means to be a Christian. And you could flip that around and say, you know, there are some people who are grace people, and they love all that stuff in the New Testament about God's grace and how it builds bridges and healing and reconciliation and all those things. And that's where they live and they struggle with a God they find in the Old Testament. And to be fair, in some of Jesus's teachings, that's the God of justice and the God who is a judge and who puts things right. And they. That part they feel a little difficulty embracing. And so I guess that's my answer, that the part that people are afraid to embrace is perhaps the part that just, you know, disagrees with their natural. Whatever they're drawn to, you know, whichever part of Scripture or part of God, they've kind of latched onto if it's another part that's very hard.
Yeah, it takes a lot of self control and I think prayer to submit in those areas that are outside your natural temperament and what you're drawn to.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Okay, so that's going to be my follow up question. Right. I'm thinking, I'm like, okay, so maybe both sides of the same coin is like, right. What is keeping people stuck in, you know, whatever they're like really, really certain of.
And then maybe like, what would it take to. And you just said, you know, prayer and maybe some self awareness. But what, what would it take to be able to then go, okay, I'm going to lean into a God that maybe disagrees with me.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: I think a couple things, places to start would be to go to the places in scripture where God explicitly describes himself.
Because, you know, those of us who read the Bible regularly and try to engage in both, both the Old and New Testament, we, we make an opinion and appraisal. We have an overall feeling about what God is like. But sometimes that, that feeling and appraisal isn't really well rounded. We've kind of, like I said, we've sort of gravitated to parts of God's nature that we go, yes, and the parts we're unsure of, we're like, yeah, I'll just kind of sweep that under the rug.
And if you go to the places where God describes himself, there's kind of an accountability in that. And you're saying, I'm not trying to say what I think God is like.
I'm looking at what he said. He's like.
And so you go to the places where he talks about, you know, that he's compassionate and gracious and slow to anger and abounding in love and faithfulness.
You know, Jesus saying, my yoke is easy and my burden is light, or I am the good shepherd, or I, you know those places, the I am statements in the Gospel of John and the places where he describes himself as a judge and that he's going to put everything right in the end. You look for those places where God specifically says, here's who I am, this is what I'm like.
And perhaps that's a good place to start in, in perhaps course, correcting a little your vision of who God is.
Another thing I, I've given this advice to many people over the years in ministry is recognizing that the stereotypes of the Old and New Testament are very strong.
So the stereotype of God in the Old Testament is that he's wrath, fire and brimstone judgment and that Jesus is, you know, grace, love, acceptance, all that kind of stuff.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: And when you recognize those two stereotypes of the Old and New Testament, which are not true, but are very powerful, then it, I think, can help to be proactive about counteracting that. So do an Old Testament study on God's grace and tenderness and mercy, and do a New Testament study where Jesus talks about judgment and righteousness and those things that maybe don't just jump out when we think of Jesus.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: And sort of proactively counteract those stereotypes. Just being aware of them. I think being aware of them is a huge part of just growing in our willingness to see God as he revealed himself and not as we want to see Him.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: Ryan, that's good. That's really good. I love that you're like, no, actually just lean in. Lean into the wonder, lean into the doubt, the curiosity.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: I don't think I've ever heard somebody explain it that way of the thing that you're unsure of about God, like, study that. See what Scripture says about that thing. And cross. You know, studying the Old and New Testament, I think that's really brilliant.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: Well, hopefully it encourages someone. You know, I've had many people, you probably have as well, in your ministry, who've come to you and said, you know, I'm drawn to Jesus, but, you know, all this stuff in the Old Testament, what do I do with it?
I don't like that God almost thinking of them as two separate gods and.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: And so it's important for them to be able to see. No. All of scripture coheres. And Jesus said, as he did in Luke, all of the Old Testament was pointing forward to me. So Jesus very much spoke of the unity of Scripture, which means there's a unity to the description of God in Scripture. So if we feel like there's a disunity, that's our challenge to solve. It doesn't mean it's two different gods. It doesn't mean there's a discontinuity. It means our understanding needs to grow.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: And so, yeah, like you said, go toward the doubt.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: That's really good.
So now that we've kind of got a better picture, you know, of who God is, Old Testament, New Testament, actually the same God, not God. Post therapy. Right. Like from one to the next.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: What are some common ways, maybe in your research as you are writing this book, that you see Christians try to manage God.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: I think bargaining is a big one. You know, any version of that. Okay. God, if If I do this, will you help me with this?
[00:22:35] Speaker A: And if, then prayer. Right. Like if you do this, then I'll go to church every week or whatever.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: And I, I don't even think it has to be. I mean sometimes Christians pray that way, but I think sometimes it's more subtle and implicit where it's like, you may not say that, but if over the course of a year, let's say the only times you approach God are if you're in need and you're asking him to fix a problem, that shows that in the aggregate, in the cumulative of your prayer life, you're really only going to him, asking for him to fix things and kind of implying, hey, I'm going to get my life straightened out and, and all of that would fall into the heading of bargaining.
That's a very, that was a very pagan practice. I mean it was, you know, I'm going to go to the temple of Athena or Zeus or whoever and I'm going to bring this little offering and I'm going to ask him to, you know, fix this thing in my life or I'm going to ask Poseidon to leave me alone because I'm about to go on a sea voyage. You know, the Odyssey just came out.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Ancient pagan. Ancient. That's a, I mean that is.
Ancient paganism is going to be in the minds of millions of people right now because of that. And that is very much a story about a man being punished because he just made a God mad and how the gods sort of toy with humanity. And so the ancient pagans are constantly bargaining with the gods to give them something or leave them alone. I think Christians do that.
I think also kind of a hyper vigilant, public rule keeping type of Christianity feels somewhat similar to ancient paganism in my mind. Not that paganism was all about morals, but just again, like, like if I'm going to get on God's good side, I have to see myself and be seen publicly as very pious.
I need, I need, you know, I need that to be my self perception and the perception from others because if I don't manage all of that, God won't give me what I want or if I do manage all of that, he will give me what I want.
So yeah, it's just all of it is the presumption that you're interacting with a God who's not interested in you and who is very powerful and who might mess with your life if you don't do these things. And so anything of that nature kind of Bargaining or just trying to position yourself to hopefully get on God's good side. All of that is pretty similar to ancient paganism.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Well, what I. What I noticed about that second one, right. About trying to make sure that we're always, like, doing the right thing or appearing to, is that I think there's a bit of it there, Ryan, and tell me if you see this or agree, where we're not even just trying to appease God, but, like, also other Christians.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Yes.
Yep.
You're absolutely right. And I actually think they're connected. I think that, okay, a lot of Christians will feel, if they get the applause of other Christians, that they're getting the applause of God. It's like that the applause of other Christians is the barometer for how God must feel about them.
But unfortunately, there are lots of things that groups of Christians will applaud that God is not happy about.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: So you can't. That's not a trustworthy gauge of what is biblical or Christ. Like.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, yeah, and also easy to grab onto. Right. Like, it's hard. It's hard sometimes to be like, okay, God, I'm. I'm trying to listen and discern Holy Spirit and see these not quote unquote signs, but, like, ways that God is actually communicating with us.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: So do you think we just grasp on to, like, the approval of people that we think represent God because it's easier and it gives us some kind of, like, certainty to hold on to?
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Could be, yeah.
I think you're onto something there. And it's tricky because there are times where it is good. You know, like if you're in a time of discernment, for example, you're trying to understand where God's leading you or should you make this choice or that choice.
And maybe you're asking the opinion of some trusted mentors or people in your life who are really mature Christians, and they're saying to you, yes, that sounds good. Do that. You're on the right track. That's a good thing.
That's wisdom. You're getting counsel. But I think there's a difference between seeking counsel for. For affirmation of trying to discern what's best that's different from this kind of performative.
Yeah. Like, I'm. I'm gonna style myself a certain way for public consumption, and if I get the applause from people I may not even know, I'm almost gonna take that as if God's applauding me. That's a different thing. Yeah, that's that, you know, actually in ancient paganism, one interesting thing that I learned was how different it is from what we think of as pastors and priests these days that the. The priests in ancient paganism, they weren't really teaching or teaching morals. That was really not what they did.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: Paganism was just. The priests were basically like, if you're a priest of Apollo or whatever, your job was just to help the worshipers do the right sacrifice in the right way. It's like they were just more like religious technicians. Like, oh, you're here. You're here to, you know, try to make sure your crops don't die. Okay, you need to kill this lamb in this way and burn this and bring this offering, and, you know, Apollo will smile upon you. But that was all very performative. Like, I'm just doing things. Like, I'm just. If I just do it all in the right way and it's seen to have been done the right way, maybe God will grant my request.
And I just think a lot of Christians slide into that without realizing it and.
And then live in a perpetual state of anxiety in their relationship with God.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you mentioned, you know, like, I. I'm thinking just community and, like, the importance of church. And I know that there are a lot of listeners that a lot of people listen to becoming church who are like, don't tell me to go to church. This is my church. They're not in a church space right now because they don't have a place that feels right for right now. And so I'm glad that they're here and listening and, you know, in the conversation.
But there is something right about community, if you can find it.
And that is different from trying to just get the applause of people. But I think the difference is, Ryan, and as a pastor, I'm sure you agree with this. When you're in good, healthy, Christlike community, those people don't always agree with you, even when you really want them to.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: That's true.
Yes, that is true.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Just like you were talking about, you know, God doesn't always agree with us, but, like.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Right, that's.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good sometimes.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Oh, it absolutely is. I mean, God uses us to challenge each other.
And.
And actually, I just, in my own faith over the years, and certainly lots of the congregants that I've interacted with at the three churches where I've served on staff, I've just learned more and more in myself and to counsel them that when you encounter those points of friction with something you're reading about, about God, in the Bible that you feel a little discomfort with or uncertainty about, or someone else in your congregation is saying something that you're like, well, hold on a second, I don't agree with that. Go toward that. Yes, go toward those things. Have those conversations. The power of the word. Why? You know, oh, that's interesting. Why do you think that? You know, so we just, so often, Christians just leapfrog over that question.
They hear someone say something they don't agree with, and they instinctively go to put, I'm going to push back. I don't think that. Or, you know, how dare you? Or whatever it is.
And, you know, just completely forget the best question you could ask, which is why? Why do you think that? And if you ask it in the right way and someone answers truthfully, if they, if they feel there's goodwill there, you may still not disagree, but you'll pro or agree. But you may come away feeling like, okay, I kind of understand why this person thinks that. Or, wow, that view. They actually arrived at that through the study of Scripture.
I didn't assume that. I thought that was just like their idea, but they actually pulled that from somewhere.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:26] Speaker B: And again, I may not do the same. I may not agree with that interpretation of that verse or whatever it is, but.
But I can see that they're trying to follow Jesus. And.
And so now I've enabled myself to feel, show some grace to this person.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: So the question why is so powerful.
You know, just even as a dad, I've learned that, you know, asking my kids why, when they're wondering about something or they make a statement, coworkers.
Anyway, I don't know if I'm answering your question, but that I think, yeah.
Trying to find your place in a church community is not trying to find a place where everyone thinks exactly like you on every issue. Yeah. Because if that is your standard, you will search the world for your entire life and never find it. And you'll just be a wanderer forever.
[00:32:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: So finding a church community is, you know. Yes. You kind of. There's a little bit of a.
A grace period where it's like, I'm searching for a church. And in those, in those days, like, let's say you move to a new city. Okay, we don't know anyone here. We're going to visit some churches. We're not like church shopping in the sense of trying to find some perfect church as if it exists. But, okay, we have these views. This is our general theological outlook. So we're going to visit churches that are Generally in that direction, that's good, that's fine. That's healthy. But within that, you will not find a perfect congregation. It does not exist.
And the fact that it doesn't exist should not drive you to cynicism, which is, oh, well, every church is full of hypocrites. So I'm just going to do church at home by myself. That, to me, is very out of step with what we see in the New Testament, especially in Paul's letters of encouraging Christians to bear with each other through all of these disagreements for the glory of God, for the good of their community.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I do think in a lot of the conversations that I've had, because I. I do agree with you. And I always tell people, like, I'm not gonna bait and switch you and tell you that you need to, like, find church this Sunday, but I also am going to be very honest and straightforward of my heart for the church and how I do think it's so beneficial. Right. And so it is. It's one of those things where, like, I think sometimes a lot of what we're talking about, people have to wrestle through on their own first and almost get to a place where they're okay with, like, asking questions before they can even attempt to then find that community, or they will. They're just going to bop around from one to one to one and then.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: You're right. Get cynical about it.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And what's the story you want to be able to tell at the end of your life?
At the end of your life, whether it's a decade from now or 50 years from now, is the story you want to tell? Well, I never really found a church home and was just at home most Sundays and just felt negative things about the church. Or do you want the story to be, I plugged into this church family and I invested in other people and was invested in. And I served in meaningful ways. And, you know, I saw these people come to Christ and I saw these people served, and I saw people grow in their faith, and that's. That was part of my life in a meaningful way. Do you want that to be the story, or do you want it to be a cynical wandering forever because you allow yourself to be surprised that Christians sin? Of course we sin.
Of course we do. In fact, all Paul's letters presume from the very beginning that Christians have struggled to cohere. But unity is not uniformity.
It's unity. It's. It's holding together even though you disagree, sometimes passionately. That's okay.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: Yeah. That's okay. That is okay.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: Well, I took you on a little bit of a church rabbit trail there. So thanks for going with me, Ryan.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: I do want to go back to these practices. Right. Because you listed a lot of very common things like prayer and, you know, godly community and wisdom and discernment and all of these things. So for people that are listening and they're like, well, I don't know if I am an accidental pagan, quote unquote. How do we know if we're being earnest in our approach, like in our spiritual practices, or if we're accidentally trying to manipulate God into doing what we want?
[00:35:43] Speaker B: That's the challenge. That's, that's well said to me.
I think that if what you want is what God wants, that's a good.
That's a good measure of if your heart's in the right place. So if you're, if in your life you trust God to the point that you are willing to say, you know what, Whatever his will is and what he wants, that's what I want.
And that, that sometimes means you don't know what's coming or you have to hold loosely your plans or you have to even change things. If what you can say is, even if I don't know what it is, or even if it might be unwelcome in some way, if God wants it, I want it. That's what I desire.
If that's how you feel, that's a good indication that you have this kind of steady faith where you really do trust in God's goodness, His nature, his presence, and that has actually shaped your life.
On the other hand, I do think someone who may be straying into some accidental paganism, you know, it's always everything's a shopping list with God and, you know, trying to kind of manipulate him into giving you what you want.
And you don't have that steady faith.
Your level of love for God and trust in him just tracks with your circumstances. So things are going well. Then you love God and He's present and he's amazing. And if things are going poorly, well, God must be far away, or I must have made a mistake, or he must not love me, or. And so your life just becomes this kind of roller coaster ride that is an indication that you actually don't really trust in his goodness and his presence and his love for you. And so you've. You're still kind of keeping him at arm's length, or you feel he's keeping you at arm's length and so then all of your prayers and interactions with him are again, like you said earlier, trying to kind of manage him.
[00:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:50] Speaker B: And, and if that's where you are, you're not really saying, I want what God wants. You're saying, I want what I want and I'm hoping God gives me that. I think I know best for my life and I'm asking God to kind of empower that. It's putting yourself in control.
Again, back to your use of the word earnest. How can we know if our heart's in the right place? We're earnestly seeking the Lord.
If you are not viewing yourself in the driver's seat and you're saying, listen, I want what God wants and sometimes that means I'm going to make a decision and I'm going to trust that he's going to show me if that's the right path and I'll take another path if I sense that it's not. But sometimes it means just waiting. It just means I don't necessarily know what's best for me.
That's part of it.
So I think just wanting what he wants and recognizing he's God and you're not.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, Ryan, for a long time I probably would have thought about, you know, this, I don't know, people like this, Right. Where they're like, oh, I just know what's best. And I will confess that I would have been like, oh, that's just their pride. It's because they're prideful and they think they know what's best.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: Go. If we go all the way back to the beginning of this conversation.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: I do think that that could just be a sign of not somebody even trying to be controlling, but going, I really don't understand how much God loves me. Right, right. Isn't that a symptom of really, truly not understanding?
God is relational and like how much they're loved.
[00:39:22] Speaker B: Yes. A fear based relationship with God grows out of the soil of not really knowing what he's like or not believing it. If you really understand who God is and you know, and I don't mean that we can have some perfect knowledge, he's, he's infinite, you know, he's, He's. So as much as we're able to understand in this life, if we do understand or at least grow toward that understanding, it's hard to have a fear driven faith. But if you're right, it's like you've got to keep drilling deeper and deeper. It's like, you know, so many challenges that Christians face or things that they struggle with. If you drill down, there's fear. Fear is at the root of so much. I mean, that's something I've learned over my years as a pastor. For the last 15 years, it has shocked me how many people have sat in my office and talked to me about so many aspects of their life that are a struggle.
And ultimately in not every single case, but the vast majority, fear is under it. One type of fear or another. And if you drill even deeper, like you're saying, why is there that fear?
There is not a durable sense and true sense of who God is and who we are in his eyes.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: It's like attending to that will allow people to have a right view of God and themselves. Which doesn't mean we'll never, never feel fear. But our life won't be marked by fear. We won't be driven by fear of God. It's it, you know, so, yes, I think fear is fundamental and the nature of God is fundamental. So that was a big focus of the book, is really trying to understand what God is like by showing what he's not like.
That's, that's, that's kind of, you know, in a way it's like the book is hopefully sort of just a theology of who God is. Yeah, but, but it's sometimes easy, it's sometimes more helpful to understand what something's like by looking at what it isn't.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: And I think ancient paganism is, it can be a mirror for some Christians where I hope they read it and not in any, you know, self condemning way, but I just hope they recognize and go, oh, I actually have been interacting with God like that.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: And I don't need to do that.
So that's, that's what I hope at least.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a really helpful tool for that. I think you did a really great job as you talked a lot about fear just now. Right. So when you look, I want to know, when you look at like American Christianity today as a whole, is there one big fear that you see that's really kind of driving the movement? And if so, how would you encourage us to push back against that?
[00:42:06] Speaker B: Losing politically?
[00:42:09] Speaker A: Say more words.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: That's it.
Yeah, I think that, yeah, I mean there's lots of variants of that, but I think that a lot of Christians feel afraid that if political power isn't on the side of Christianity to the extent that they want it to be, then it makes them feel afraid of, you know, God's losing ground or Christianity is losing ground or whatever.
And listen, I acknowledge that perhaps there have, you know, as we've moved into the 21st century, there have been ways that Christian values have perhaps eroded some in society. So I'm not saying they're dreaming.
There is some cause to say, what does it look like to continue to infuse the gospel into American life in the 21st century?
But I do think some Christians will allow politics to become so intertwined with their faith, it's almost impossible to imagine their faith apart from politics. I think away to the second part of your question, to acknowledge that and push back is, well, again, to look at ancient paganism. You know, you could, you could actually draw a map in the ancient Mediterranean world of where the gods and goddesses were imagined to be more powerful. So, you know, Artemis is worshiped in Ephesus especially, or Athena in Athens or, you know, that kind of thing. Isis was all over, but perhaps mostly in Egypt.
And I do think Christians can accidentally start thinking of God in those terms as if he's geographically limited. His power is, is concentrated in our country or in our time more than it was concentrated in, you know, 12th century Germany or something. Just pick a place. Or in 21st century China.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:10] Speaker B: And so I think that it's important to remind ourselves, as it says over and over in the Scriptures, God is Lord of the whole earth and, and all of time. And if, if, if you're continuously trying to fit God into the box of one country's politics at one time, you're going to end up with a small God, you're going to end up with a God that looks a lot like you. Yep. And so I am not in any sense saying that we shouldn't be engaged politically as Christians. We absolutely should. And as Americans as citizens, I think that's very important.
To be engaged citizens and to vote our values. All those things really matter. And certainly in the New Testament, in Paul's letters and some of the other letters in the Catholic epistles, of just trying to have the best relationship we can with government and being ambassadors, all that matters. So in no sense am I saying politics is unimportant, but it's a question of degree. If you've allowed a drift to occur where it's almost difficult to imagine Christianity outside of a 21st century American context, then you have shrunk God down in Christianity down to something that it isn't.
[00:45:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: So, and that makes, and that will make you afraid. So back to the fear thing. If you do that, if you make God small and make him very hyper specific to your context where God is basically agrees with you on everything. It will make you afraid because anytime you see anyone thinking anything outside of that neuro lens, it can make you feel this almost like apocalyptic fear, like, oh my gosh, what's happening? We've got to turn this back and we've got to make all these people think differently. And it's like, hold on a second.
Trust that God is Lord of the whole earth.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: And that some people who you disagree with may just be on a journey of discovering what's true about the Lord. It might take them another 10 years.
And, you know, do you want to be part of that story of helping them or encouraging them, or do you want to just view them as an enemy right away?
[00:46:19] Speaker A: Yes, Ryan.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: And so fear just blossoms when you shrink God down, whether you're talking about politically or some other way, because you're no longer thinking of God as it truly is.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's one way of putting God in a box, right? We're, we're like, well, you're limited, so we have to be afraid. Yeah, you can't be right on this. Yeah, okay, well, I am. I have a follow up question for you on that that we're going to take behind the paywall so people can find us there. For that last question, though, for this full episode, Ryan, is because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church? The people around them,
[00:46:59] Speaker B: I think, just recognize that you are the church, that the church is not that place you go, it's not an institution, it's not a building.
It's okay to refer to a church building as a church, but to recognize that the actual language in scripture refers to a group of people and that whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you are the church.
And so just to acknowledge what is. And if that's true, how are we supposed to be the church?
And you know, Jesus gave us, and Paul, you know, the other New Testament writers, lots of guidance on that. To be salt and light. Yeah, you know, I always.
One of my favorite passages is in 2nd Corinthians 5 where Paul talks about that we're ambassadors, we are new creations. And because of that, we are ambassadors of reconciliation that we have experienced between ourselves and Christ. We are now ambassadors to the world. And so to me, being.
Being the church, you know, there's within the church. Of course, being the church is just, you know, community and caring for each other and all that, but being the Church in broader society is. Yes. Being salt and light, being ambassadors, and I think being an ambassador means you're not trying to defeat people, you're trying to win them over. Yeah. And so I think to me, that's what it means in part to be the church.
[00:48:26] Speaker A: It's beautiful. I love it. Ryan, thank you for being here. Guys, I'm going to link up accidental pagans in the show notes, so make sure that you go check it out. Learn more about who God is by figuring out who he's not.
I love that it can be really hard to reconcile the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. I love Ryan's suggestion of studying traditionally Old Testament aspects of God in the New Testament and maybe stereotypical aspects of of Jesus in the Old Testament. At Mosaic, we try to explain Old Testament Bible stories through the lens of Jesus. So I've linked up some previous sermons where we've done just that, including our most recent summer series called Old School. There's a message on Jonah that touches on the difference between God and the pagan gods and how they're worshiped differently. There's a message on Job for recognizing if our view of God is based on our circumstances and plenty of others. I hope that this helps you in your study of figuring out who God is and who you are to Him. Okay, remember to click that link in the show notes for the special. Becoming Church Listeners. Only access to my substack, where you'll get another 10 minutes or so of Ryan unpacking how fear masquerades as maturity and what we should do with people who are convinced that their way of speaking the truth is the only way.
Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.
