Amanda Held Opelt: What Good is God When Life Hurts?

[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus isn't just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and my conversation today is with Amanda Held Opelt. She is the author of A Hole in the World and Holy Unhappiness, books that both deal with grief healing and how to find God in the midst of tragedy or a life that isn't all goodness and blessings. I'd say she's an expert when it comes to helping us live in this tension of a good God and a hard life, because she's experienced both in shocking and hard ways, which we really look into by the end of our conversation. She's also an excellent follow on social media because she has a way with words that really speaks to your soul. I hope you feel seen in my conversation with Amanda Held Opeld. All right, Amanda, so here we are the morning after Halloween, two frantic moms already chatting about jumping on late because of traffic and sleep and schedules and lunches and all the things. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Yes, yes. But we both have a strong cup of coffee in our hands, so I think we're going to do great. [00:01:22] Speaker A: True. That's true. I also have Halloween candy. I want to know what you stole out of your kids trick or treat bags from yesterday. [00:01:29] Speaker B: I am pretty notorious for stealing the Reese's Peanut Butter cups, so I. That is actually my plan as soon as this conversation is done is I'm going to sort through the candy and grab all the stuff I want. [00:01:43] Speaker A: Perfect. [00:01:44] Speaker B: And hope they don't notice. Is that bad? Oh, that feels wrong. But it's. [00:01:50] Speaker A: It's. It's the mom tax. Right? It's our right. As we had to walk through the cold. Listen, where we live, it dropped like 30 plus degrees from the day before until the day we had to walk around with our kids in the dark. So, yes, it was. [00:02:05] Speaker B: It was like 40 degrees and drizzling last night while we were out getting candy. Yeah, it was. It was pretty miserable. So, yeah, I. We definitely deserve. We've earned it. We've earned it. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Those Reese's are yours. [00:02:15] Speaker B: They're yours. They are mine. They are mine. That's awesome. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah, Mine last night when they went to bed were like, and don't get candy out of my bag. I was like, you won't even know it if I do. So I'm going to tell you right now that it's happening and you won't miss it. Like you're okay. [00:02:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's good honesty. I guess is the best policy. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Yes. All right. Well, I have you on because you wrote a book called Holy Unhappiness, and I read it a few months ago. I've actually gone back into particular sections, and I've read parts of it twice. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Oh, cool. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Because it really. It just hit me in a place where, you know, I think you said you wrote it to answer the question, like, what good is God when he doesn't soothe every fear? But the line that really cemented it for me and your introduction was when you described your life as, I think, a constant trickle of disappointment, or like, that kind of constant trickle was always kind of in the, like, lingering. And so for me, it was one of those where I was like, I want to have a conversation about this because it hit me so hard and it was so relatable. But at the same time, as a pastor, I'm like, can I tell people that I relate to this? Is it okay to admit these things? You know, so why do you think it is that we're afraid to admit when we're unhappy? [00:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I think part of it is that, like, for me, like, on paper, I have a really incredible life, and I have so many privileges. And particularly when we see things going on in the world around us, like we're watching right now, it feels like, okay, am I allowed to say when. When. When my life, which on paper is. Is so privileged and has so many advantages, is. Is still hard? Does it. Does it matter to God? Does it matter to anybody? But I think that the main reason, and this is the reason I wrote the book, I think, is because I think that kind of growing up in. In, you know, the evangelical church and as a Christian and Christian subculture, I was just kind of given this impression that one of the marks of a spiritually mature person or a person with a sound theology was someone who was happy all the time. They were always joyful. They didn't experience anxiety. They didn't experience any kind of anger. They didn't experience disappointment or. Or certainly not depression. That was kind of the impression that I was given, that I would kind of show my holiness by demonstrating my happiness, and that that was an evangelistic tactic, even, that we need to draw in a, you know, a hurting world, a sinful world, non believers, we need to entice them to Christianity, to the story of Jesus, through our happiness and our optimism. And so then when I didn't always feel happy and always didn't. Didn't always feel optimistic, I thought, well, gosh, there must be Something fundamentally wrong with my, my own spirituality. This is indicative of a, you know, poorly formed theology. And so that. That was partly why I was scared to admit to myself and certainly to anyone else that I was struggling with feelings of unhappiness and disappointment. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Well, and like you said, you know, I think growing up in the evangelical church, and a lot of our listeners, too, I think, have similar backgrounds and upbringings that you and I do of like in the 80s and 90s. And you mentioned in the book how it wasn't just like one message, but it was kind of always this underlying thing, right? Yeah, it was through, like, lots of different messages of purity culture and prosperity gospel and all of these things that. Yeah, I think we walked away with the idea that we. If we're not happy, if God's not giving us XYZ or we're not finding fulfillment in whatever it is that. Yeah, it's because we're not praying enough. Our faith isn't strong enough. You know, it's like all of these, these messages, I think it led to toxic positivity. Do you think that's where that came from, too? [00:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think that's partly true. I mean, you're right. It's the water we're swimming in. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's just kind of in, in the zeitgeist. Think of modern church in America. And it's something I call, you know, I call it the emotional prosperity gospel. Now, I have always rejected the traditional prosperity gospel, which is this idea that if you're just a good person and you have enough faith that God's going to make you healthy. God's going to make you wealthy. In fact, he wants you to be healthy and wealthy. He doesn't want you to be sick. He doesn't want you to be poor. So have enough faith, declare a word of faith and he's going to make it happen for you. I never believed that. I never believed God wanted me to be rich and healthy all the time. I knew that suffering was part of life. But I did believe that God wanted to make me happy. He wanted to give me a sense of meaning and fulfillment and happiness and satisfaction in my relationships and my work and that that should be consistent. So, yeah, God's not a vending machine for material abundance, but I thought he was a vending machine for emotional abundance. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and even I think, again, looking back, it's easier to see right. When we're not actually swimming in the water, but it really does kind of. I think it was a way of dividing people unintentionally. Yeah, but I think it was a way of dividing people, too. And even as, you know, growing up, like little evangelists, like we were to go, okay, well, these people and these families have it all together, so their faith must be good and they're. They're doing the right thing and so they're making God happy. And then, yeah, anybody. Because we didn't understand how the world worked as kids. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:50] Speaker A: Anybody who's not experiencing that, I think inherently we were like, oh, well, then they just need to go to church. There's something almost like God's. Why isn't God blessing them? And I felt like it was my job to fix other people's relationship. I'm like, okay, well, if your parents are getting divorced, then you guys definitely need to come to church with us because that's going to fix it. [00:08:14] Speaker B: Right? Right. You know, it's going to make everything better immediately. You know, that's. It's this, this belief that, you know, God, that this redemptive story arc that, you know, God's going to write this story that's going to immediately come to fruition if you just, you know, make all these right decisions and, and do all the right things. You know, that's just, you know, the work of healing is slow and comes in fits and starts. And I just, I didn't. That was not my expectation, though. [00:08:40] Speaker A: Yeah, well, so there are lots of different. There are lots of topics, and you cover so many of them in the. [00:08:46] Speaker B: Book that we won't. [00:08:47] Speaker A: We don't have time to get into all of them. But was there one aspect of this emotional prosperity gospel maybe that stuck out to you the most, maybe as you were writing or looking back? [00:08:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I really think the book was born of my vocational angst, which was, you know, kind of this. You know, I'm sure you heard this growing up that you just gotta find your calling. Right. You gotta decide what it. What is the specific blueprint that God has for your life? You know, who are you supposed to marry? What job are you supposed to take? If you can find your calling, then you'll be happy. It's kind of like the Christian sacred version of find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Right. This was kind of find your calling and you're going to just. You're going to be. Your life is going to be filled with meaning and purpose. And I found my calling, like, five different times. Like, I Realized I was supposed to be a missionary in India, and I went and did that. And guess what? It was hard. And I wasn't exactly awesome at it. And I missed my family. And there were all kinds of, you know, it just wasn't the exciting adventure that I thought it was going to be. So then I came home and I was like, well, I must have messed up. That wasn't my calling. I was mistaken. So I came home and I found my calling again. It was working at a Christian nonprofit, working with, you know, underprivileged women in. In an urban context. And I taught that. You know, we taught ged, we did mentoring and Bible study. And guess what? That was hard. That was exhausting. It was. I burned out. It was, it was. It was so eye opening. I didn't realize just how many, how much poverty and struggle and systemic races and all these things were present in the American context. And I was unprepared, didn't know what I was doing, and I burned out. So then I found my calling again and I went and did. I did international aid work, worked at an international aid organization. And guess what? That was hard too. And. And so it was just like this, me kind of understanding that, okay, there may a. There may not be one specific thing that God is calling me to. Maybe he's calling me to his heart, calling me to his character, calling me to Christ likeness. And there are all kinds of things I can do within that. That, that sphere. But also, even if you do find a job you're really good at and you love and is good work, and it's holy work, it's hard. It's gonna be hard. You're gonna be exhausted. You're gonna be bored. Even worse, you're gonna be bored sometimes, and that's okay. [00:11:13] Speaker A: There are gonna be days that you hate it. [00:11:15] Speaker B: Exactly. Doesn't mean you should quit necessarily. Doesn't mean you've made a mistake. It just means that, hey, this is life in the aftermath of the fall. This is ministry. This is the labor of loving people. And it's hard. And you know what? That's okay sometimes, you know? [00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I also think there was something to. And maybe it's our, Our parents generation, not to fault them, but just the mind, the mind frame that they came from is at least for me. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:43] Speaker A: And I think it's more common. Like there was the one. Right, right. Like there was the one person and the one job or the one career. And so like, for me, I realized same. My calling was to teach kindergarten. Amanda I was so good at it. I was so good at it. Like, I'm not even. I don't even care if that sounds. I, like, killed as a kindergarten teacher. I was so good. Yeah. And then after, you know, lots of years, like, after 12 or 13 years, I was like, oh, I think actually I need to take a break from this. It just changed. I was in a super toxic situation. Like, it was affecting me mentally. It was affecting my family. And. Yeah. So after a little break, then I came on staff at my church. And it wasn't long after that that God made it very clear, like, hey, your next calling, your next season is in ministry. And I fought that for so long. I was like, I am not the one. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Not me. Not me. [00:12:41] Speaker A: I think still a lot of people, I think that my family sometimes, or people who knew me for a long time are like, you're weird as a pastor, because in their mind, my one right thing was to be a teacher. [00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:56] Speaker A: You know. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:57] Speaker A: And so even shaking out this idea of whether it's the person we're supposed to marry or career or where we live or who we are or anything, it's like it actually can change. [00:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I love how. I mean that word. Seasons is. I know it's used a lot, but you're absolutely right. Is that I think there's. There's so much more, I think satisfaction and freedom in life when we can look at life as a series of maybe seasons and see that it ebbs and flows and what is. What is asked of us, what is required of us, changes. You know, most people don't think it's, you know, sit there as, you know, in high school youth camp, dreaming of a calling that involves caring for their aging parents or even, you know, or spending six months in a cancer ward. You know what I mean? These are not the callings that we dream of, but sometimes it's what life asks of us, demands of us. It's what love requires of us. And so it's what we do. But I think we. We get so committed to these scripts, this telling an important story with our life, you know, doing this big thing for God. Andy Crouch, I love it. He calls it impact fetish. We have this fetish for having a huge impact for the Lord. What kind of impact could I have for Christ in a cancer ward or changing, you know, diapers or. Or taking care of my aging parents and. And that work matters too. Even if it's not this script that you feel like God gave you as some particular kind of Romanticized calling, you know. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and then there's also options, right? [00:14:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:31] Speaker A: I remember the time that, the first time that I really, it was revealed to me, the Adam and Eve story where, you know, in my mind again, like Bible stories, you know, for kids, are very clear cut and black and white and leave a lot of stuff out sometimes, but those are the versions that stick with us. Yeah. You know, God says, don't eat of this tree. But we forget. Like, but he doesn't say, here is the one tree that you can't eat from. He gives them options. And so that blew my mind. And every time that I am in a mentoring relationship with a younger girl who's either graduating college or trying to figure out is this the right person that I'm supposed to date, I'm always like, hey, there is no the one, there is no one option. Yeah, like there are lots of options. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Yes, yes. We love, oh man, we love formulas. We love clear cut answers. Wisdom, actually. Wisdom. I don't think we talk enough about wisdom. It's messy, it's a little sticky, it's a little ambiguous. But you know, it's, yeah, I'm, I, I, I'm the kind of person that thinks you can marry anybody if you're using wisdom to make the decision. You can pick any job, live anywhere if you're using wisdom to try to make that decision. Um, but I don't think God is playing this game with us where we have to kind of figure out this perfect will for our life, specific will that he has somehow hidden from us and we got to somehow discern or divine what it is exactly he wants us to do, you know? [00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but that's for sure a mind shift for people, I think, I think that is the underlying growing up. Like if you pray hard enough, if you listen to God hard enough, he's whispering it because you gotta find it. [00:16:10] Speaker B: Yes. The still small voice and it's like, oh, yeah, I don't know, I just, I don't think that's how God operates. At least I don't believe that anymore, you know? [00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah, me neither. Me neither. Yeah, well, since we, since I talked about Adam and Eve and the garden and the chapter on calling, you said that you proposed this question, you said what a different world we would live in if Adam and Eve had stopped to consider what was instead of what could be. And I thought, man, I wonder if we could do this ourselves. How, how do you see us living differently if that had played out differently? [00:16:41] Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, a lot of people throw around that word contentment. And I, I get a little bit nervous using the word contentment. Cause I've, I've sometimes seen it used to kind of. Well, everything can be literally flying off the rails. But you just pretend like everything's fine, put on a happy face and that's contentment. And again, I don't believe that's required of us anymore either. I think it's just this, this idea that like we have a really hard time being satisfied with just how things are. This idea of always advancing, always achieving bigger, better, that is a feature of modernity. It's a feature of kind of the self help movement. It's a feature of the American dream. It's kind of built into psyche of Americans. If you are an American of European descent, it is, some people argue it's written in your DNA to dream of a better tomorrow. Why? Because our ancestors came over from, you know, hardships in their homeland. They, they came as individuals to this country to quote unquote, pull themselves up by their bootstraps and dream of a better tomorrow. And so we have this kind of idea that if we're not always advancing or improving, that we're somehow failing, you know. No, but that's why we speak of jobs as stepping stones so often. Nobody's dreaming of getting a pay decrease, nobody's dreaming of getting a demotion, nobody's dreaming of buying a smaller. Although the tiny house movement is pretty in vogue right now. But for the most part we, we, we measure success by are we getting bigger, better, more advancement. And I think that that sometimes prevents us from just being, from noticing what there is to enjoy in the moment, in what we have and the here now. That, that doesn't mean that there are certainly some circumstances that I do think we should want to advance from, move on from, move forward from. Like thank goodness the leaders of the civil rights movement were not content with how things were. Right. So that's not what I'm saying, that's not what I'm arguing, but I think I'm saying where you can, when you can. Is it possible to believe that this is enough? God has, God is enough. I am enough in this moment to enjoy, to be satisfied in and not always be obsessed with this idea of advancing or getting, getting better. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah, listen, I don't like when you say that because that's really hard for me. I'm just going to tell you, I'm sitting here, I'm like, yes, great. But I'm an enneagram3 and I always Want things to be better and more and I always want to have more purpose. And I'm like, thank you, Amanda. No, thank you. I don't, I don't want that. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's hard for me too. And this has been a season that's really challenged this new conviction of mine because I, I finished my two book contract and I quit a 10 year career in aid work to write these books and now I have zero. I have. People are like, well, what are you doing now? And I'm like, I actually don't know. I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I should probably be trying to get more followers on social media. I should probably be trying to get a bigger, better book deal. I should probably be, you know, whatever the case may be. And I just feel like the Lord is saying, why don't you kind of hang out for a while and just enjoy your life if you can. If you need to make more money, then maybe I should go work as a barista, like, you know what I mean? Or go do something. And is that, would that be enough for me to say that like I'm not, I'm not have to be advancing my career all the time? Like, I think it's just an important, it's an important reality for me to face right now. [00:20:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And even if it's not career, like you use the word supposed to, which again, I would too. But even that goes back to that idea of like it's so built within us, that idea of God's will. Well, what am I supposed to do next? Like, well, I need to figure out what his will is for my life. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so it is nice to. I do feel like in some ways it's like being 21 or 22 again. I just graduated from college. I'm trying to figure out what to do. It's kind of like that. But now fortunately I have all these tools and all this hopefully a little bit more wisdom and so it's not nearly as, as anxiety inducing, but it's still that mean. I still feel like a little bit like a 22 year old Amanda trying to figure this out. Only now I have a 2 year old like you screaming in my ear the whole time while I'm doing Right. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Right. Only now we have the bigger responsibilities of life and we're aware of even more things that are. [00:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Same time. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Yes. But it has been a good lesson in learning to practice what I preach, I guess. [00:21:11] Speaker A: Yes. Don't you love when God does that every time I have to preach a sermon, God's like, hey, I'm going to make sure that you really learn this one this week. He'll talk a lot. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yes, that. Yeah, that's exactly how it, how it always goes. It feels like. [00:21:26] Speaker A: Yes. Well, talking about work, you made this really beautiful connection that I had never thought of about the difficulty of work. And like, Jesus wearing our frustration as his crown when he redeemed us again. This is one of the sections that I've listened to twice and both times had deposit and go back and literally and just like, sit in the complexity of that thought. Can you explain that to people maybe who haven't read your book yet? [00:21:51] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, I've just. I've always been fascinated by the curse of Genesis 3, because I think our kind of internalized interpretation of it is like, well, the curse is that you're going to go to hell if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I'm not saying there aren't eternal ramifications for the fall and what transpired there, but it's very interesting. What God actually says in Genesis 3 is the curse. And it's that, you know, the. The serpent is going to be cursed. The relationship he has with the woman will be cursed. Woman will be, you know, cursed in labor, like it is in. In labor that we will bring forth children. The whole process of. Of, you know, pregnancy, conception, and, and. And. And childbirth is going to be hard and taxing, emotionally taxing. Those words actually in the Hebrew are very, very heavy. It means it's emotionally taxing. And then, you know, that this curse of the ground is that, you know, no matter how much you work and labor, you know, it's going to be through toil that you produce fruit. Nothing's going to be easy. And there's this really visceral kind of imagery of, you know, you will sow seeds, but you will reap thorns and thistles. And isn't that true of our experience is all these things that we sweat and we toil and we pour our heart into that don't always come to the fruition that we want to see. And I just think it's really beautiful that when Jesus, you know, was hanging on the cross and they. They mockingly placed a crown on him, they put a crown of thorns. And those. Those thorns, kind of hearkening back to that imagery from the curse, that you'll reap thorns. And he's kind of wearing this emblem of our frustration, and he's Saying, I'm taking that to the cross as well. And, and, and I'm. I'm carrying it in my own body. I think God's choice to can constantly carry the pain that we have carried through the life of Jesus, through the incarnation. You know, he was born into really difficult circumstances, and he. He lived a life of suffering and, and marginalization, and, and then he died a really horrific death. And then he, at the very end, kind of this last thing he did was had this crown of thorns placed on his head. I think it's really beautiful that God is willing to take on our pain as he steps into the world with us. [00:24:08] Speaker A: I think even, like, just listening to you right here, it's like it's hitting me so tenderly, probably because of the season that I'm actually in with frustrations. And. Yeah, you know, life is just really hard sometimes. And so I think that why it's hitting me so the way that it is is because I always pictured Jesus is taking my sins. [00:24:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:31] Speaker A: He's taking the things that I choose. He's taking my choices, he's taking my actions, he's taking my mistakes. And that is what Jesus took on the cross was all of the bad things that I could have done differently. [00:24:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:44] Speaker A: But what this picture. I've got goosebumps. But this picture of the thorns and him wearing our frustrations is like, hey, but he also took the pain that's put upon us. [00:24:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:56] Speaker A: He took the frustrations of work that are not because of our own choosing, that are because of someone else. He took the illnesses that we're grieving and the deaths that we're grieving that are pains that we're carrying, not because we chose or did everything, anything wrong or didn't have enough faith, but he took all of that on too. And like, that is a completely different picture of Jesus crucifixion than I think what I had ever thought of ever in my life. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Right. I mean, we do and we do. We get so focused on kind of the substitutionary atonement piece of Christ's death and our sin. You know, it was my sin that nailed him there. And please, I'm not saying that that bit should be ignored, but we sometimes forget that the Bible tells us that he bore both our iniquity and our sorrows. The iniquity that's inflicted on you and the pain that that caused you, he bore. I just, I think God could have chosen to come to this world and led a really cushy, comfortable life and then maybe done the thing on the cross and then skedaddled right out of here. But instead, Christ lived a life of suffering. He was a man of sorrows because there's, you know, and then he. He died at the hands of religious persecution and political persecution. You know, those are the things that we see. So much suffering has been wrought in the world by these two powers. And it's like he. He carried that, he lived it. He allowed himself to be victimized by it. And I think that's the kind of the piece that we. We sometimes ignore is that he came to carry our sorrows. He was a man of sorrows, and he wore those scars into his resurrection. Like, that's the thing to me that blows my mind is that he came back in a resurrected body, a perfect body. But what remained was the scars of that pain, the scars of that choice that I think he wants us to know. He will never forget the story of our pain. He will never forget the story of what he did for us and what he bore for us even in his resurre resurrection, that even in the victory, there is a memory of the pain. And that's okay. And that to me is like a powerful. That is a powerful story. One that I just can't even with the doubts I've had, it's one I can't really walk away from. [00:27:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And again, just that picture of Jesus, humanity, right? Like, we all know, like God came as Christ as a human. But again, I think it's easy to not think about what that actually means and how that actually makes him relatable to us. And instead we're just like. But he was super human and. Yeah, but also. No, he also was just human. He did. I was just reading this morning about, you know, Jesus feeding the 5,000 and how right before that was when he found out that John the Baptist had been beheaded. And the reason that he liked, went off on his own wasn't just because he was tired of doing miracles and teaching. He was grieving like he was traumatized. Yes, he was traumatized. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that, that, yeah, this was a key piece for me in writing the book was realizing that it. Gosh, we don't give ourselves permission to grieve or be sad or anxious or angry. And Jesus, Jesus was angry. You know, he flipped tables when he was facing the prospect of the cross. Some people say he had what they consider to be a panic attack in the Garden of Gethsemane. So Jesus, who had obviously, like a perfectly formed theology, you know, he. He was. He knew the truth. He had all the spiritual disciplines down pat. He still struggled with anxiety, with dread, with. With anger. You know, and again, his. The difference is, is that all of Jesus's emotions were informed, were righteously informed and informed by wisdom. And what did that enable to still make the right choice despite the anxiety. And that, to me, is where the key is. Like, faith is where, like, belief and action meet, is that I can have all kinds of doubt, but if I still choose to make. To follow Jesus, if I. If my beliefs get put into action, that is faith. And that's what I see in the life of Christ, is, yes, he had anxiety, yes, he had grief, yes, Stephen had anger, but he still made the right choice to follow God even unto death. And that, I think, is what is asked of us. Not to feel happy all the time, but to make the choice to follow despite the difficult emotions. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Right. And it does take seeing Jesus as humanity for us to be able to even feel like it's possible. You know, I think that's too. When it's like, oh, we just see Jesus as superhuman, and how are we ever supposed to do that? You know? But when we can remember that he also. He could really. I mean, you said in the book, he said, being human is a rigorous endeavor. And I think you made a joke that, like, nobody wants to, you know, quilt that on a pillow or put it on a tapestry. I actually do. I like when I see that in my daughter's room. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Just FYI. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But thinking about, you know, his humanity and our humanity and all of these things, and the grief and the sorrow and the sadness and all of the emotions that we should have to actually sit in and recognize what helps you stay in the fight on the days that it all feels too hard. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I kind of joke that I've become a little bit of a hedonist as I've gotten older. This idea of just kind of like, eat, drink, and be merry. But I'll put a little bit of a Christian spin on it and say that, like, I think I've just started to commit to the idea of noticing the beauty in the world and doing everything I can to enjoy. Enjoy it and savor it so less people think that this book is a real Debbie Downer and just a bummer. And I'm an advocate for just, you know, marinating in your sadness all the time. I really do try to impart this idea that there is. There is a lot of joy and wonder and beauty in this world. And. And if we can. If we can be Willing to be present for some of those simple pleasures, those humble pleasures. Maybe the things we don't even earn, like the taste of an apple or the beauty of a sunset. It's. It's not in the big achievements. It's not in the big accomplishments or all the accumulation of wealth. It's in some of these simple pleasures that. Just. The glory of music or the sound of laughter or time with friends. If we can be present for those things, then I think we get to hold. Hold this. This paradox that is being human. It is hard, and it is wonderful. It is. It is heartbreaking, and it is beautiful. And can we pay attention to both and be present for both? And so that's kind of how I get through. Like, if I'm having a rough day or I'm feeling really sad, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go outside and look at the trees or I'm gonna bake a pie tonight. I'm gonna think of something fun for us to do that'll just give me a little bit of pleasure and a little bit of joy, and I'm gonna. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna revel in it. I'm just gonna savor it. And. And that. That. That's kind of what's getting me through on some of the more difficult days. [00:32:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds. It can sound, you know, saccharine or trite or whatever, but really, one of the lessons that God had to teach me recently was on gratitude, because I had to preach on gratitude. And I was like, again, I'm not the one for this God. [00:32:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:32:28] Speaker A: But it really is, you know, it's November. Everybody starts. Starts to turn to this month. It's like, oh, we're going to remember what we're thankful for. But it really is true. Like, if we can open our eyes to see the good and we can remember what God has done, and we can truly find something to be grateful for. This is a tension I have with my girls when we pray before bed. On one hand, I don't want to force them to pray. So on the night that they're like, oh, I don't want to say anything. Outwardly, I'm like, okay. But internally, I'm like, okay, how do I get them to find one thing that they can. Thank you. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Just to notice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And for me, I mean, this is biblical. This is the Ecclesiastes. You know, it's like the. The wisest man who ever lived, supposedly, and he's saying, like, life is really hard. And you accumulate wealth and you grow, and you grow in wisdom. You know, he's talking about all these things, and he's like. And still life is meaningless. It's like, well, that's a bummer. But then he concludes, over and over again, he says, you know, there's nothing better than to enjoy the fruit of your labor, to eat and drink and enjoy life where you can now know that God is watching and he calls into judgment the just and the unjust, and every deed will come out into the light. But it is good to enjoy the fruit of your labor when you can. It's good to enjoy food. It's good to enjoy a relationship. It's. These are good things to do. And I think. Well, there's a lot of. There's a lot of wisdom in that. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely the tension of both hands. Two things can be true at once. I like. [00:33:57] Speaker B: It's the. It's the both. And. Yeah, it's so true. [00:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Amanda, let's give people a couple practicals. At one point, I think it was in the section on parenting, you talked about arrival fallacy and how there's this illusion that once we make it, once we attain our goal or we reach our destination, whatever it is, right. If it's finding the right person or having kids or finding the right career or stepping into our calling or whatever, that once we reach it, we'll, you know, find that lasting happiness. But it's a fallacy because we're actually hardwired to take pleasure in the pursuit. [00:34:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:34] Speaker A: So you talk a little bit about. About that. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this. This idea of arrival fallacy was kind of put out there by, you know, a study, I think, out of. Out of Harvard. If you look at my book, I cite the guy who did it. It. I don't have it right. [00:34:49] Speaker A: Tall Ben Shirar, I think. [00:34:50] Speaker B: Yes. Tall Ben Shirar. And. And he. He. Yeah, he talks about how kind of, we are kind of addicted to the chemicals in our brain that get flowing when we're pursuing something. And I think we can all relate to this, that the crash of. After you finally accomplished the goal or achieved the thing, you. You. You kind of crash. And not only does it maybe not meet our expectations and it's not everything we thought it would be, but we also kind of have this physiological crash. I'm certain all your listeners can relate to this. And so I think, yeah, I think it's just. Maybe just being prepared for that in advance and knowing that all of our expectations always need to be tempered by reality and also knowing that there's no one thing that's going to be the silver bullet to happiness. Like, I am a Christian, and so I believe that it is God that ultimately leads to wholeness in our life. Not necessarily happiness, but wholeness and flourishing in our life. It's not. You know, a lot of times people think, well, if I can just meet that right. One person to share my life with, then my life will be whole. If I can just finally have children, then I'll be whole. And I get that. I struggled with infertility for a few years, and so I get that desire. And it felt like life was incomplete until this happened. But there's no one thing that's going to lead to wholeness apart from Christ. And so just taking that pressure off of the people in our lives. My goodness. Like, my poor husband, the first couple of years we were married, he carried the weight of that expectation around of me thinking this was going to be the one person that was going to be my soulmate, my financial partner, my lover, my roommate, my cheerleader, my. My spiritual leader, my everything. And of course, he was. Of course, he couldn't be all those things perfectly all the time. And, boy, did he hear about it from me, you know? So once I kind of released him from that expectation to make my life whole, gosh, our marriage sure got a lot better because again, it goes back to this idea. Savor what is rather than what you think should be. So we got to be careful about doing that to our children, to our jobs, to our. To our spouses, to our spouses, our houses, or whatever it is that we think is going to make our life whole. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Yeah, you. You talked about the conversation with your therapist and your husband when she was like, he can't be the person that's everything to you. And I literally, like, through my phone, because I was listening to the audiobook, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is a recording of my own therapy session. Same exact conversation. And I was like, oh, gosh, I have to find another therapist. This lady doesn't know what she's talking about. Of course, my husband is supposed to be the whole. He's my husband. He's my. He's my one spouse, you know? [00:37:40] Speaker B: Yes, I know. But, yeah, it. Yeah, she told me to go, just make more friends. And I was like, what is wrong with. What is wrong with this woman? This is not what I'm paying her for. I'm paying her to fix my husband. And. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:53] Speaker B: But it was the best of, yeah, it was. The best advice that you would ever gave me was like, my goodness, like, no one person or one thing can. Can hold all of this for us. You know, it turns out Tim was like a really great husband. He just wasn't perfect, you know what I mean? And I was really. I was pretty upset with him for a while about that. [00:38:12] Speaker A: But, yeah, changing our expectations changes a lot there. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. It does. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Okay, so for that's a little bit, spouses and expectations. What about your kids? How are you raising your kids in faith differently than maybe how you were raised. How we were raised in the church. [00:38:31] Speaker B: Well, I gotta give. I gotta give huge props to my parents because in spite of the fact that there was a lot of these kind of, like, maybe unhealthy accoutrements to evangelicalism when I was growing up, they. They did a really good job, I think, to kind of protect us from some of the more toxic elements of that. And even, like, the way we talk, you know, we talk about purity, culture a lot. The way my church and youth group talked about sex, I thought was really healthy and really good. So my parents did a. Yeah. Did as good a job as they could to kind of raise us in this more kind of consumeristic iteration of Christianity that we grew up in. But I think what I'm trying, again, as good as they did, it was still in the air we were breathing. You know what I mean? It was still all around us. [00:39:15] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:15] Speaker B: So I think what I'm kind of trying to. [00:39:17] Speaker A: So much. Exactly what they say, it's what we hear here. It's what we internalize. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yes. It's what we absorb all around us, for sure. You know, I think what I'm, you know, trying to be really mindful of, you know, that old adage, what you win people with, you win people too. And so just trying to be careful about not winning my children to Jesus through some of these extras, if that makes sense of like, you know. Yeah, if you. If you follow Jesus, you know, there's pizza parties and cool T shirts and cool Christian bands, and it's like we have our own subculture, so we're cool and we can hang with the culture. You know, I think that was a lot of the way that we were kind of tacitly trained to win followers to Jesus is like, let's just get them into the cool youth group where there's a hot band and, you know, really dynamic speakers, you know, like, you know, orators that are just really compelling and give the message of Jesus And I'm trying to just. Just say, like, hey, this is who Jesus is, and take. Take him or leave him. You know what I mean? Like, he calls us to a way that is good, but it is hard. It's narrow. I mean, I think that verse about the gate being small and the way being narrow, I don't know that that's about who's going to get into heaven and who's not going to get into heaven. I think it's saying the way of following Jesus is going to press in on you. It's going to require a lot of you. And so I'm just kind of trying to say, like. Like, yeah, just take away some of those added elements that were meant to entice people and. And present Jesus for who he really is and. And who he says he is with none of that extra fluff. And if they say yes to that, then I think that's a much more sustainable form of faith than a faith that said maybe yes to all that other stuff and then begins to wonder who Jesus really is when all that falls apart. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Or even just the promise of heaven, like, yeah, I think that was a lot of it, too. We're going to follow Jesus. We're going to believe in Jesus so that we can get to heaven. Well, yes, that's only going to last for so long because guess what? Heaven is a long way away, most likely. [00:41:24] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, that's so true. [00:41:26] Speaker A: That wears off. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Well. [00:41:28] Speaker B: And even the fear tactics, you know, like, I grew. Well, you know, we just had Halloween. I grew up in the south where, you know, the Southern Baptist Church down the road did, you know, had like, the Judgment Houses, like, where they. The Hell House. It's like hell in the basement. You know, they basically created hell in the basement of their church. And, you know, instead, that's what they would do for Halloween. And it was this whole theatrical performance kind of meant to scare people out of, you know, you know, into saying yes to Jesus. And. And I think it's just like, yeah, I think there's something to be said that, like, I think life apart from God, no one wants to live a life apart from God. But I don't. I don't want this to be a decision they make out of fear. I want it to be a decision they make out of faith that their heart says yes to Jesus, you know? [00:42:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, and saying yes to living life with Jesus, the humanity of Jesus, like we talked about earlier, and saying, hey, I want to be in a relationship with this person because I trust this person as I look at his life, that he understands me. [00:42:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:42:31] Speaker A: As opposed to maybe one day I'll get to where I can meet him. No, you can meet him now. You can walk with him now, you can live with him now. [00:42:39] Speaker B: That's right. And I think saying yes to Jesus, if you're really following in his footsteps, it means saying yes to be present for the pain in the world. Because that's what Jesus did. [00:42:49] Speaker A: He. [00:42:50] Speaker B: He touched the lepers, he touched the bleeding woman. He stepped into a backward, colonized, you know, kind of outlier community in the Roman Empire. Like, I mean, again, it was. These were a marginalized people group that he. He made. He set up shop among, you know, and he was present for it, and he was present for the pain, and he bore the pain. We have to do the same thing. And that means that life's not always going to be happy. Happy. If we're going to be present with people in their pain and not look away from the struggles in the world, then that's going to be hard. It's going to require a lot of you. But I think it's the way. I think it's the truth. I think it's the life. I don't know any other way to be human, to be honest with you. [00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Not slapping platitude band aids over people's wounds and going, hey, just victory in Jesus. It really is. Yes. It's just a jerking of responsibilities. And I do believe that sometimes people say that because they literally don't know. [00:43:52] Speaker B: What else to say, and that's okay. [00:43:54] Speaker A: But we've got to get. Yes. We've got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I think even if we can replace those moments with, like, hey, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Or this sucks. Like, what you're going through sucks. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:07] Speaker A: And that's all I know to say. But I am in agreement with you that it sucks. And I think God thinks it sucks, too. [00:44:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:14] Speaker A: You know. [00:44:14] Speaker B: Yes. We have got to learn the language of lament. As Christians, we. We are really adept at the language. [00:44:20] Speaker A: That'S a holier way. Victory. It sucks. Yes. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Well. Well, that's. That's for me, that's. That's solid lament language right there, Kristen. I'm. I'm all for that, but we're so adept at the language of victory and positivity, and it's like, oh, well, one third of the psalms are lament. So it is a language. We have got to learn to speak to one another. Over one another, for one another. [00:44:43] Speaker A: That's good. All right, well, Amanda, since the podcast is called Becoming Church, I don't, we can't end without hitting on that section of the book really quick. And so you said that growing up you believed the lie, like I think a lot of us did, that Christianity was safe and entertaining in a table. And so you are, though not on paid staff. You are in, I would say, in the ministry realm, ministry life. You serve at your church in a variety of capacities. So do you see this idealistic Christianity changing like now? [00:45:17] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think that it's. Yeah, I think I just came into my faith because I had such a positive experience in the churches that I grew up in. Hats off to my parents again. I think that I always had this idea that like, church was supposed to be safe. Church was supposed to be easy. Church was going to be filled with good people who were easy to interact with and easy to deal with. And Christianity would create this, a buffer for me in a sense. It was like going to be this safe bubble of community, like minded people that I could just kind of like float through the world with and, and, and stay safe with. And I, I just don't believe that anymore. Well, to begin with, I think church is, feel filled with imperfect people, you know what I mean? And church is going to disappoint you. And, and the church is going to be broken because it's made up of broken people as a incredible choice on God's part to use human beings to build his kingdom because he knew we would mess it up, but he wants us to participate. You know, kind of like when I ask my kids to help me clean the kitchen, you know, it's a fool's, it's a fool's errand because it's like they're making it messier as we go. But I want to involve them, you know what I mean? Because I love them. They're my treasures. Yeah. And so I think that the church is going to be messy, it's going to be broken, and it's also not going to protect you from the pain in the world. In fact, if it's doing that, it's not living into its purpose. The church is to go to the painful places, to be present in, yes. In the struggle and in the difficult places. And so if what you're hoping to get out of a relationship with Jesus and participation in church is a safe bubble of like minded people, we're doing it, we're doing it wrong. Church is community. Church's belonging Church is sharing in the sufferings of Christ. We're doing Philippians going through Philippians at our church. So this is, we're harping on this right now. We share in the sufferings of Christ, but it is not a safe bubble of people that are just going to make you feel great about yourself and, and protect you from the world. We are to be in the world. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you think our church is? Very much that way. I think there are other churches that operate, you know, from that mindset, but like the big C church. Right. The global church. What do you think, think it would look like? How do you think that we can take that message and start to shift people's perspective of seeing the church that way? [00:47:49] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, the church has a horrible PR problem in America right now. And I, you know, I don't know how much blood sweat here we should spend trying to fix that. You know, the church is never always going to be, you know, popular. I just want it to be known as a place where people are real and people are loving, you know. So I think what the church maybe needs to do is focus a little less on power and influence in the sense of cultural influence, and maybe focus a little bit more on holiness. And I don't mean holiness in a kind of Bible thumping conservative like, you know, keep all these rules really strictly. I mean holiness in the sense that like the word holy often means set apart for a sacred purpose. You know, are, are we really living as people who are set aside with a sacred purpose of being a light to the nations and a light to the world? When they look at us, do they see people who have, who are flourishing in a way that, that they can't really explain. And by flourish, I don't mean big buildings, I don't mean big programs. I don't mean like, you know, the big mega church with the fancy lights and the cool coffee shop. None of those things are bad if they're serving your purposes. But that's not what I mean by flourishing. Yeah, I mean, is there wholeness in our relationships? Is there. Are we involved in our neighborhoods and our communities? Are we kind to our children? Are we kind to those and noticing those in the margins of society? I think if we focus more on that, rather than gaining some kind of cultural ground, political ground, political power, and instead focused on being holy, set apart for a sacred purpose. I think the church, I think the church would do a lot to improve its image in this country. Yeah. But more importantly than that, I think it would do a lot to fulfill its purpose. [00:49:59] Speaker A: Yeah. For God's kingdom. Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, again, the podcast is called Becoming the Church. Because I'm. My, My hope is that when people hear you say these things, they don't just picture, you know, the building or an institution that they may maybe do or don't go into and attend on a Sunday morning, but that they can think themselves like, am I doing all of these things? Am I going out into my community? Am I getting involved? Am I being the church that Jesus called us to be as a group of people, you know, not a building? And yes, yes, take all of us. [00:50:34] Speaker B: We're living stones. You are the church. We are the church. You know, it's not. It's not about a registered 501C whatever. It's not about the building. It's not about the. The institution. It's about the people within. Within those. [00:50:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:52] Speaker B: Institutions. And. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm going to summarize. Give me a second. I'm going to summarize this section for you, and then I have one last question. [00:51:00] Speaker B: Okay. [00:51:01] Speaker A: But I wanted to give people some context. And so I'm just summarizing. I'm not going to get it exactly right. But you said talking about church and being involved in your church when, like you said, it has a PR problem. You said, I was confused in her and I wanted the church to tell me what to do and what to think. Think. I wanted a sanctuary. Instead, it felt like the church was swinging a wrecking ball at me, at your theology, at your confidence in the people of God, your hope that they were all at risk of demolition. And you said you felt like the church who had been your mother was failing, unstable and careless, or maybe she always had been and you just hadn't noticed. And then you said, and I think a lot of our listeners can relate to this. This. You said, how was I supposed to ask people not to quit or to impart hope to them when I was losing mine? How was I supposed to ask them to stay when I was considering leaving myself? And when I tell you I wept when I read that, because I have felt this so many times where I'm like, I have to go up and preach a sermon to these people who are looking to me for answers and for hope and for all of these things when I know for a fact, if I had the choice, I would not be up here. I would not even be here on this Sunday morning. So knowing all of this, you stayed anyway. So I want you to help our listeners who Maybe feel. Not exactly. You know, they're not going to go and teach to a group of people, maybe, but maybe they're wrestling with this idea of. Of, do I stay? Do I go? Do I keep choosing faith? Do I keep believing? How did you. Why did you stay? And how did you get to the place where you knew that you could. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it just keeps going back to this idea that the story of Jesus is. It's a story that's too beautiful for me to not believe. Like, it's too astounding to walk away from. I just find it to be a story that's gorgeous and incisive and precise. Like, it speaks with such precision to what it means to be human, to the places in my heart that hurt, that struggle, that sin. And I. I don't know. I don't. I mean, you know, people say this a lot, but I'm like the disciples. Well, where else am I supposed to go? You know what I mean? Yeah. And in that moment, I think often of poor Martha, Mary, you know, Mary and Martha and, you know, it's a famous story of the holy Sister Mary is sitting quietly in the second Peter, Jesus, and poor Martha gets slammed as, like, this busy body, even though, like, chapters later in the Book of John, she makes one of the most definitive statements about Jesus divinity of anyone in all of scripture. She says, I know you can do anything because you're the Son of God, basically. And so Martha is actually a woman of great faith, but she is preoccupied with all the things about her performance, her religious performance, and what people are going to think of her and who she's going to be and what she can do, what she can accomplish. And that is so often what kind of gnaws at me when it comes to my experience in church is like, what are people going to think of the church? What are people going to think of me if I believe and can. If I. [00:54:30] Speaker A: If. [00:54:30] Speaker B: If I stay with the church, do I need to do this and this and this and. And. And what can I accomplish for the church? What is our church accomplishing? What is the church capital C, accomplishing in the world? And I think really what Jesus says to Mary applies to me or to Martha. It applies to me, and it applies to the church at large is like, you are distracted by so many things. Few things matter. Indeed, only one. And so I think when I kind of turned to the. Indeed only one, the one thing that mattered and that is like, who's Jesus? Who, Who. Who is he calling me to be? Who is he and can I become like him? That's when all the kind of, like, the. The unhealthiness of church expressions and the brokenness of the institution and my own sense of inadequacy within it falls away. And I say, I'm following Jesus. If anybody else is doing that, then let's walk together. And that meant that I had to stay. Yeah, I stayed. And I'm so glad I did. I'm so glad that I did, because it's led, I think, not to a life of ease, but I think to a life of flourishing. And wholeness. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And wholeness. Yeah. [00:55:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:55:46] Speaker A: Amanda, thank you. [00:55:47] Speaker B: That. [00:55:47] Speaker A: That's. That's great. That's beautiful. We will link up both of your books in the show notes. Great. Your Instagram, all of the places where people can find you. Is there anything else that you wanted to say? [00:55:59] Speaker B: No, just thank you for your work. I just. I think everywhere, women and the family of God are, you know, serving the Lord. I just think we ought to be cheering each other on rather than, like, competing or comparing. And so I just want to say thank you for your work and what you're doing and. And just cheering you on as you run the race. [00:56:18] Speaker A: So thank you so much. Thank you. Your sister, I need to tell you how her work and her words has deeply affected my life and my faith and my ministry. It wasn't until I came on staff, it wasn't until God really started to, like, you know, lean in and tell me that I was supposed to be a pastor, and I was like, absolutely not. [00:56:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I can't do that. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I really started deconstructing, I guess you can say. And I found Rachel's books. I found her blogs. I found all of her stuff. And it truly changed and shaped my faith. I just felt like I had this connection. I felt like finally somebody understood my experience growing up, and it gave me freedom to know. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:11] Speaker A: You know, you can think about things differently and believe differently. And, you know, reading her. Her words led me to dig deeper into Sarah, Bessie, and other people. And now I really feel like I've had a whole world opened up of this whole community of people that are okay with discomfort. And not everybody doesn't have to agree with everything and so many things. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Have all the writing. Yeah. Have all the answers and follow all these scripts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:57:38] Speaker A: So I just. Because I will not ever get to tell her. I just want you to know, on behalf of Rachel, just. And I know that, you know, what an impact she had, but. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Well, it Never. It never gets old hearing it. You know, it really is. We feel like such privileged grievers in that sense because, you know, everybody, when their loved one dies, you know, thinks, oh, wish the world could have known my sister, my mom, my dad, like, and. And we know that in so many ways the world did know her and saw who she was. And so it. Yeah, it never. I mean, every time I get a message from someone, anytime anyone shares with, like, what you just said, like, I'm thrilled to hear it. I savor it. I'm. Yeah, so, so, so honored and, and thankful that she had. That can impact. [00:58:37] Speaker A: Okay, I got a little emotional there at the end. If you didn't make the connection or you're new to Amanda. Her sister, Rachel Held Evans, was an author and a speaker who was and still is a really pivotal voice for a lot of people who are questioning their faith and the church. Unfortunately, Rachel passed away shockingly and quickly at the age of 37. But her legacy lives on through her words. Now, her work isn't for everyone. I think she scares a lot of people who like definitive meaning in scripture or think that the religion of Christianity is clear. But if you find yourself in a deconstruction journey or you're trying to wrestle through the hard parts of what you believe, I do recommend checking out her books, which are linked up below, along with some other messages and resources that can take this conversation with Amanda a little bit further. And if you ever want to talk about what Rachel helps you see, I would love nothing more to have that conversation with you. Just send me a DM on Instagram. My prayer for you this week is that you would see the humanity and relatability of Jesus in a new way and maybe even be inspired to share that with others as you keep becoming church to those around.