David Docusen: Make the Introduction

[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus isn't just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and this episode is a conversation between two imperfect humans who kind of can't believe that we're pastors. David Dukason has been in ministry for almost 20 years. He's been in and out of the pastoral role, starting organizations, supporting other churches and ministries, but always with a very grounded, relatable heart for people in the community. If you've ever wondered if God wants to use you, why he hasn't gifted you with specific skills to make disciples, or how you're even supposed to begin telling people about Jesus, this episode is for you. If someone else comes to mind while you're listening, share it with them, because it might be for them, too. I'll be back at the end of the episode with more resources, but for now, enjoy my conversation with David dukeason. Well, David, thanks for being on the show this morning. So glad to have you with us. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. Been looking forward to this one. [00:01:14] Speaker A: So you are now? I was, as I like to do when I interview people, even people that I know, I was stalking your website. I was going through your bio and all the things. So you're a pastor, you've done multiple church plantings, you've started organizations. So many things. But tell us what you're up to right now. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah, we are, actually. I'm 44 years old, and I thought the greatest thing that we could do with our time was plant our third church. It's ridiculous. Didn't mean to do it. I mean, for the last five years, we've been traveling, you know, all over the country and different parts of the world, sharing the message of neighborliness, which is a message about connecting across and finding the beauty of God across dividing lines of race and economics. And we planted two churches in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where we get to know Naeem and Ashley at Mosaic. And so, yeah, we were out just traveling, teaching, speaking. We work with organizations. I mean, currently we work with organizations all across the country creating strategic plans for community engagement. And what does it mean for us to really care about overlooked and the marginalized in our community? So that's like a huge part of my heart is helping churches create strategies for their communities. Well, when we were traveling and teaching and speaking, we came to Winston Salem, which is about an hour down the road from Charlotte. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:40] Speaker B: And I came here a few times to speak. And I was just speaking on neighborliness. And there was a church that was doing a bunch of small groups. Like we have a bunch of small group materials on that book, Neighborliness. And, and so they were doing like 45 small groups about our book. And oh wow. I came out here a few times for that and there was just something. I don't know how to describe this, Kristen, other than, you know, like, I would assume a lot of the people that are listening to this have a, they're rooted in their faith. Right. Like, I just, we, my wife and I felt something in our spirit. We really could have lived anywhere. We were based out of Charlotte still, but full time traveling and working with churches and we just felt like the Lord was just kind of pulling us to Winston Salem. And so we sold our house and came here without a lot of direction. And over the course of the past two years, our home kept on being filled with people. We have a really diverse, very unique, like international population here. And so like we. It's very, very consistent for our home to have 30, 40, 50 people in it where just be packed in all across our house, every corner of our house. And people from seven, eight different countries and English is their second language. And it was just like this unique setting over the last two years where people start giving their heart to Jesus. And we were just like sharing our faith just really kind of simply and just naturally like, you know, I've always been a believer that if this is real, you know, and our faith is real, that it's going to be so effervescent and, and you know, we want it to be like an irresistible faith and so lots of meals and stuff like that. And then my wife just said to me in January of this year, she said, hey, what if we start making breakfast for everybody on Sunday mornings? And then maybe somebody could like do a few worship songs and then maybe you could teach. And I was like, I know what you're doing. [00:04:48] Speaker A: You're making a house church. [00:04:50] Speaker B: I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like that's not, that's not what we're doing. And, and, and that's what we ended up doing. And we ended up, yeah, starting. Starting a church that just kind of, I feel like it kind of started itself almost. We saw a lot of people giving their heart to Jesus and, and I've had this devotional, like an early iteration of, of what we're talking about today. I, I wrote like 10 years ago and, and I just wrote it for our church like in, in Charlotte Center City Church. And it was just like this thing that like we printed ourselves. It was like very, very low quality. And, and so we kind of dusted that off and I sent it to my editor because one of our folks at the church was like, hey, like we have all these new believers, but what are we giving them? And I was like, well, I'm not sure. And I said, I've got this old thing that is really bad writing. Like, I was like, this is like 10 years ago before I did, you know, all my, you know, my doctorate and books. And, and I was like, it's. It's really bad. And, and so I, she, she's like, let me see it. And she's like, we need this for our people. Like, we need this for our people. And so anyway, I sent it to my editor and I was like, hey, this. I, I can promise you this sucks. But like, here you go. And she read it and she was like, no, I really like this. And yeah, it just, this little devotional has become something that is now resourcing churches like all, literally all over the world. I mean it is like, I feel like it's just kind of hit a. It's, it's, it's met a need that's out there and we were able to release it here, you know, just a handful of weeks ago. And, and yeah, I mean God's, God's really using it right now. So I'm excited about that. So church planting and then still working with churches is what I'm doing. [00:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So before we dive into the book and we are going to dive into the book that you're talking about for people that are listening, that are like, cool for you. I am not starting a church in my living room or my kitchen. Right. If they still wanted to do the same idea, this neighborliness concept and have people over, what was it? Is it was always Sunday mornings? Was it dinners? Was it small groups? Like, how did that get started to begin with? [00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it was just life. I mean we're really connected with a, with a very, very diverse community because of our kids, school and you know, they, we just. What we have found is that food gathers people. And so we just, yeah, we just started to become that place that just. I like to grill. I've got an eight burner grill. No big deal, you know, like, I don't want to like, you know, call attention to my mastery on the grill. [00:07:45] Speaker A: But you're cooking like whole animals out there. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think that people overcomplicate sharing their faith, I mean, so much, you know, understandably. So it's like it should be the most meaningful thing to us. It can be kind of intimidating and try and capture all of the goodness of Jesus and in one conversation. And so the way that we try and model it is like a lot of the miracles that Jesus did, a lot of the teachings that he did was just walking one place to another. Yeah, that was it. And so we've just tried to say, okay, let's walk with people from one place to another. Let's be really intentional about like letting people know that they're loved. And, and so, yeah, I mean, this, this community was formed because of hospitality and love and we didn't even mean to do it. And, and so now, you know, it's meeting on Sunday mornings and stuff like that. But, but still, I mean, the vibe is, you know, whether it's our house or somebody else's house, it is very much a community that just gets together. We eat together and we use any excuse, you know, sports on TV or, you know, the Grammys or it doesn't matter. [00:08:49] Speaker A: I love it. [00:08:50] Speaker B: We're going to do whatever it takes to just get people together. And then when we get them together, we don't always talk about Jesus. We just show love. And so it's kind of that model of walking one place to another with. [00:08:59] Speaker A: People that is so beautiful. I love that so much. And I hope our listeners take that as permission and freedom. And also maybe no excuses, like, like you said, we over complicate it. Right. You don't have to have a curriculum or a study. You just make up a reason to gather people together and then just be kind to them. Show them love, show them acceptance, invite them in. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And Kristen, I mean, I think one of the biggest things is that we've professionalized ministry when like Ephesians 4, it talks about that these are the gifts given to the church. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers. Well, most pastors have the shepherd teacher gift where they're walking with people and teaching people about Jesus. I mean, you have an amazing teaching gift, Kristen. And thank you. And, and so it's like, those aren't jobs in the Bible. Those are gifts given to the church. And so it's like, so it's. We can't professionalize ministry. We. We have to. There are people who I'm an advocate for to be paid to do ministry. But ministry just happens, you know, that the apostolic gift is the entrepreneurs and the business leaders and the prophetic folks are the, you know, people that see things in black and white and Kind of call things out to point us towards Jesus. The evangelist gift is the people gatherers, like the, the ones that can get people in a room. The shepherds are like, you know, people that care for each other, counselors and, you know, stuff like that, teachers, teaching. So it's like we all have these gifts and if we just do our part, the kingdom of God is going to advance. And so for us, like, we just have really worked hard to try and show people. This is not the job of pastors who are paid to build community. Like, it's our job together to build community and. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:50] Speaker B: So in that, you know, and, and I know that we haven't gotten into the book yet, but that's the whole reason that I wrote this book, was to put it in the hands of our people to say, it's not my job to disciple your friend. [00:11:04] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Like, I literally wrote this for our community so that they would walk with their friends. And, and so that's, that's been one of the biggest surprises to me is that other churches are doing that now too, is like, you know, taking on kind of that ethos of, you know, we're going to use this as a tool to help people, give them the words to say on how to walk with their friends. And so to me, it's just, let's get together, let's eat, let's have fun. And you know, we don't always have to talk about Jesus to share his love. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Right, right. I mean, yeah, that's, that's kind of the heart of this whole podcast. Right. Is that like you said, the gifts were given to the church, which is everyone, which is everyone listening, which is literally everyone. Like how, how else can they say everyone, you know, and so let's talk about it. Your book tomorrow and the days to come. See, my copy has a sticker right here because we have this actually at our resource center, Mosaic. So at we have what's called a 10 minute party. So people come by after service for 10 minutes, we talk to them, we give them a party favorite, answer their questions, try to get them connected. And we've got different books up there that we swap out monthly. Your Stays though, because it is a highly recommended resource for people who are either new to church, new to their faith. You know, I think the good thing about having a variety of resources is that somebody, everybody can find something for them. Right, but you talked about how there was a missing need when you wrote this. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Right? [00:12:34] Speaker A: Like, what was the motivation specifically talk to us? [00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah, for me it was we see the kingdom of God maybe a bit different than a lot of the general resources that are out there that are pointing people to their first steps of faith. Like, to me, I think that I call it the physical gospel in Matthew 25 is like, you know, yes, we are redeemed and set free by Jesus, but also we're called to, like, the physical needs of our neighbors and like the. We're called into community. We're called into, like, a sincere faith that. That becomes our own, where we're trying to get people to learn how to read the Bible, trying to get learned. To get them to learn how to walk in community. And, and so to me, it's not just getting somebody to learn how to read the Bible or how to pray, but it's. It's how to get people into relationship with each other so that as they are navigating life, as they're doing that. And so, so the motivation for the book was, Was. Was very granular. It was very gritty. It was just. We just, you know, there's a certain skill set that the Lord's given me where, you know, I, I like to write. And there was a very present need right in front of us where it's like all these people that were giving their heart to Jesus. And so it. In my doctoral program, one of my professors said to me, the specific leads to the general. And so basically, keep, Keep your hands in something very specific and you'll learn the thing that the kingdom of God might need. And so that's the story of this book is just, you know, when Elise gave her heart to Jesus and she's asking us, you know, I've never felt God before. What do I do now? Well, it's like, okay, that. That puts the onus on the church family at that point to have something, you know, to, to have some sort of a path. And so, you know, so the way that we have developed this is now really trying to get churches to see, like, and it's not like, I mean, if people saw, like, Newbeliever book.com is where people can get this in bulk. If you saw how cheap we made this, you know, that I'm not doing this for money, but we were offering this thing for, like, stupid cheap, because we want churches to give it to their whole church to prepare them to walk their family and friends, you know, through those first steps of faith. And I mean, Kristen, I think that for whatever reason, like, I would have never done this plan. The plan that God had for spreading the word was a Bunch of imperfect people like me and you. [00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, probably right. [00:15:26] Speaker B: And so I just think that the more that we can give imperfect people a pathway, something that they can talk about, you know, we've kind of structured it in a way where there's daily devotionals for the first two weeks, and then on the third week, there's here, you can do your own devotions, and let's talk about that. And then there's a million resources at the end of the book, you know, where people could go for the rest of their life reading about Jesus and devotions and stuff like that. And so that's the, you know, the motivation was just highly, highly specific to our group. And it just seems like it's kind of caught on with other churches as well now. [00:16:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I actually am obsessed with the fact that it's only two weeks because I was flipping through this and I thought, oh, my gosh, this was actually written for real human people, was actual lives, you know, that I can see some again, Lots of resources for lots of different needs. But sometimes I think we give brand new believers these massive books and go, hey, do this and come back and let me know when you're done. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:30] Speaker A: And I mean, it could be years, it could be months. You know, this is so quick. It's only a couple pages a day. And you built in a grace day. Yeah, that is brilliant. A grace day just to catch up. [00:16:44] Speaker B: It's because, I mean, I love Jesus with every part of my heart, but if I told you that I did my devotions every day without fail, it'd be a big fat lie, you know? [00:16:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:55] Speaker B: And so, I mean, yeah, we wanted again, it was. It was the reality of the community that we're in. We know that people the goal. Yeah, I'd love to have people read the Bible every day. And my life is better for it when I'm. When I do all seven days in a week. But, you know, but even on the grace day, we say, hey, if you want to read something today, you can read this. But like, yeah, so highly, you know, is designed in a way to try and get people a win, an early win. Like, I can do this for two weeks, and if it takes me four weeks, four weeks to get through the first two weeks, I can at least get through it. At the end of every day, it's the same two scripted prayers at the end of every day so that people can start going. Like, the way that I refer to that is like, if I can teach you some words to pray, then you'll know what to say. But then you can start freestyling, you know, when you start to get comfortable. You know, we start with the Lord's Prayer, like an adapted version of that, and then a prayer over family and friends and, and once I get comfortable talking to God, I can start using my own words, you know. But those two prayers that are in there, I pray those every day. Every day. Like literally every day. So, so we were just taking stuff that we're doing in our real life and saying, okay, these are some things that we think that you can do. And so, so yeah, two weeks of that and then on the third week we say, hey, why don't you read the Book of James? It was just perfect because James is only five chapters. So it was like, take five days, read the Book of James. You have a grace day in there. And then in the appendix we have like a, an overview of like, hey, this is how you can structure your Bible. Reading time is like, you know, you can, you know, do these things. And we made it with alliteration because it's always easier to remember stuff when we use pastors. Yeah. So I mean, and I'm glad that you picked up on that. Like, I mean, some people, you know, pick up a small book and you know, they wonder if there's any substance to it. That book, if people, if people did what, what the path of that book is, they could set themselves up to do their devotions for the rest of their lives. [00:19:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it really is trick like training wheels because you've got the grace day which gives, tells people, hey, I know you're not going to do this every single day. And then even the seventh day, it's like a reflection day. Listen, that feels like another grace day, if I'm being honest. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah, we did that on purpose where. [00:19:20] Speaker A: They'Re, they're back in it and they're reflecting, but it's not brand new information again. So really you've got these like 10 topics. How did you pick those 10 things? Like the five things for the first week and the five things for the second week? [00:19:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I had a professor years ago say to me, if I was stuck, and I only had one thing, one of the teachings of Jesus that I could take with me, like on an island somewhere. I would, I'd pick the Sermon on the Mount. And it was the, like the, this very famous sermon that Jesus gave. Well, embedded in the Sermon on the Mount is, is these, are these passages that, that we picked for these 10 days, which is referred to as the Beatitudes. And So it says blessed are, you know, this and blessed are this. And that can be translated as, you know, happy are the people that do this and happy are the people that do this. But it's really unexpected stuff and it was very like, compelling to me because it just feel, it just felt like this really distilled thing to introduce people to the Gospel message, which is very counterintuitive. I think in the book I refer to as like almost like backwards kingdom thinking is like, happy are people who mourn. And that doesn't make any sense until you start to realize that we've got to find a way to mourn what's going on in the world around us or else where it's going to be super unhealthy. And so our happiness actually is the settledness that we feel in our spirit when we feel the comfort of God come in. So the, the, the Beatitudes, it just kind of laid out perfectly for, for like a two week devotional. And I, and I, like on the first day of the devotions, I have, I have everybody read the whole thing and then, hey, what do you see? But then those next nine devotionals are like one sentence. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Say like, you know, blessed are the peacemakers or happier the peacemakers. You know, like, well, what does that mean? Because all of those things are loaded with truth. And so, so what we tried to do is make it as accessible as possible in a really, really interesting format that Jesus. I wanted to introduce people to the words of Jesus. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Because it's not like the words of David or the words of Kristen or, you know, Naomi or whoever. It's. I want them to know the words of Jesus. And so if we did it really short, we figured people could read it in five minutes if they wanted to and just get going on their day. But then at the end of every day, there's multiple, hey, if you want to read more about what it means to be happy in the midst of your morning, then here's three or four more things that you can read. So it's like, for the person like my wife, who is a voracious note taker and researcher, you know, she is like the one that wants more, more, more, more. Well, when I was writing it, I was like, dara, we need to add more for the people that want to read more. But we wanted to make it easy enough to where if somebody had 10 minutes that they could read through it, have some reflection questions. And we know that early in people's faith, they may not be in the rhythm or the discipline yet to spend 30 minutes soaking in the presence of God. [00:22:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:37] Speaker B: And so those 10 things were. It was just very symmetrical. It was very. It fit for a two week, you know, devotional. And then, you know, like I said, that third week is the book of James. We don't have devotions written for those. But what we did is we said what you've learned the first two weeks, implement that into the next five days by reading James one chapter a day. So, yeah, that's how we chose that. [00:23:02] Speaker A: What was it about James besides that? It was five chapters. Surely there was something else. [00:23:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker A: I can just picture you just like flipping through the Bible. [00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like Song of Solomon. No, James is just one of the most. I think it's the most practical, easy to understand. It's somebody else writing about the teachings of Jesus. And so you're introduced the first two weeks with the words of Jesus, but then now you've got somebody else writing about the words of Jesus. And it's just really, really, really practical. And every day over those five days. Actually, I was just reading James 1 just on my own yesterday. You could split that up into multiple weeks. Just, you know, doing, you know, just subtitle to subtitle could be another idea to do your own devotions. But like, James is just like, it feels like somebody who, like, you know, works downtown wrote it. That's the way it feels to me. It's just, I don't know, somebody living a very real life. And then like, James one starts off with like, if you don't have wisdom and you need wisdom, you can ask our good God and he's not gonna, like, fault you for asking. And I'm like, yeah, right. Yesterday. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:24:31] Speaker B: Yesterday in my devotions, really big. I wrote out, I need wisdom. And I'm asking you, you know, for wisdom, because I don't know what I'm doing. And. Yeah, so James, yeah, I think I'd be friends with James. I think that he'd wear a hoodie and just like, talk to me about sports and like, he just seems like, you know, that book seems like a very approachable book. And that's what we were trying to give people the confidence that they can go deeper on their own. And so, like, when churches are doing this, like, some churches are now doing this as their new believer, small group. [00:25:04] Speaker A: So cool. [00:25:05] Speaker B: They'll meet over a couple of weeks, they'll talk for a week about week one, a week about week two, and then people will do James and then on the fourth week, they pick their own. What do you want to read? And then on the fourth week, we're going to talk about that. And so the whole path is trying to get people to gain confidence with a few early wins, to, to just learn how to, you know, navigate faith. I mean, honestly, though, this morning on the way to school, I was talking to my son, who is 16, and, you know, he loves Jesus, but let's just say he's 16 and, you know, maybe hasn't developed the most robust devotion life. And I told him, I was like, hey, let's. Let's go through this book together over the next three weeks. And he was like, okay. And. And so it's like, you know, I had a church in Buffalo hit me up, and they were like, could you release another one? That's exactly this. But just take out all the new believer language, because actually this is just like a discipleship book. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:07] Speaker B: And. And I was like, well, no, I'm not going to do that, but you can use it. [00:26:13] Speaker A: Still available to you. [00:26:14] Speaker B: You can use that. And, you know, because, I mean, I think all of us have this desire to know and be known by God, like, at the core of who we are. And my hope is that the book helps people figure out some really practical ways that they can dig into that relationship. [00:26:32] Speaker A: Well, and that really is the thing. I mean, from the first two weeks to James, I mean, all of it is just, it's practical, it's approachable, it's relatable. I think it's the thing that new believers are actually thinking about. You know, I think sometimes we want to give them theology and church history and a lot of quote unquote foundational things. But what brand new believers actually want to know is what you put in here. I mean, even looking at the appendix, you've got resources on grief and doubt and questions. And these are the things that new believers want to know, like, how do I read the Bible and what is my purpose and how do I get engaged in a community? You know? [00:27:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the. And again, Kristen, this just came right out of our own community. Right. So it was just real life. It was, it was born in real life. Is there's a part at the end of the book that's called how to navigate Hard Questions about faith. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:29] Speaker B: And I started writing that and. And it hit me like I'm about to write a whole book on apologetics if I'm not careful here. Like, about, like, why do bad things happen to good people? Or what you Know, like what all these big questions. And so instead of trying to answer all the hard questions about faith, what we're trying to do is, like, if somebody were to really read that and say, what I'm trying to show them is the heart and the character of God, that. That even when something seems hard or confusing or contradictory or conflicting to the character of God, the way that we navigate hard things about faith is by. Is there has to be this element of faith that says, God, you are good. And in this, I don't see your goodness and acknowledging that and voicing that. And so, like, what we're trying to do is give people permission to doubt and give people permission to be angry or to be hurt. And so how to navigate hard questions about faith does not answer the hard questions. It tries to posture the heart towards the goodness of God. And then we give some practical tips on walking alongside somebody who maybe is farther along in their faith and they've walked through seasons of loss or doubt. Or my wife and I, we can walk really closely with somebody who has lost a baby because, you know, it's like, I mean, I tear up thinking about it right now. I don't understand that. You know, I don't understand God all the time. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:07] Speaker B: But what I've. What I've learned in the midst of it and like, even in the midst of our own loss is he's good, you know, and so I can say that to somebody who's struggling early in their faith and they experience loss or they experience grief or doubt. And so, yeah, I mean, I want the book to be practical for new believers, but I also want it to give permission to be human, you know? [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And it definitely does that. And I think that's why this resource is going to be so helpful, because again, instead of just giving information, you are teaching people, you are giving them a framework. Like, this is how it works. And so this is something that they can apply, you know, long after walking through these. The first three weeks. The first three weeks, when in your resources in the back. Because I do love that, too, that you point people to so many other things. Where did you come up with, like, did you just Google, Are these your besties? Like, how did you come up with this list of resources? [00:30:06] Speaker B: I should count and see. I should see. I don't even know how many are in that. It is so many. Right? Like, I mean, like, so many. [00:30:11] Speaker A: But it's so great. [00:30:12] Speaker B: Yeah. The. No, every. Every one of those books are authors that I trust. I had quite a long journey of Education with my master's degree and my doctorate, where I just had some really wonderful people pouring into me. And because of that, I had to read a lot. And so those are authors and books that have deeply, deeply impacted my life. And, you know, the one on grief and doubt, you know, calling some of my professors who most impacted my life in my own theology about questioning God or, you know, God's willingness to allow us to. To wonder about his character, and he doesn't push us away for that. Like, really going through with people that I really trust that. That, you know, saying, what. What can we give people to give them a lifelong. I wanted to create a lifelong reading list. So here's a little secret that I think a lot of people have missed. This. It's written in there, but not everybody reads every word in a book. They're actually ordered intentionally from easiest to read to really deep. [00:31:30] Speaker A: Brilliant. [00:31:31] Speaker B: Yes. So. So it's literally. [00:31:33] Speaker A: You're so smart. [00:31:36] Speaker B: And so. So it's like, if I just want to read a book that is going to make me laugh as I think about, you know, God, and I'm just trying to be introduced to faith, I want to read Love does by Bob Goff. It just made me laugh. I was literally on an airplane laughing out loud with my AirPods on listening to this book, and it's just whimsical, you know, and so that's at the top of the list. But you get farther down the list, and they're all in subcategories. I guess I should have had my book in front of me, too. I don't. But they're all in subcategories of, like, faith and culture. If you want to read about theology, you know, like, there's stuff in there, like, it's. It's literally ordered from. This is how easy it is to enter this to. There's some stuff in there that if a new believer read it, they'd be like, what on earth are you talking about? But it's. I want that book to be something that somebody can go back to over time as they're continuing to grow, that they can deepen in their faith. [00:32:41] Speaker A: That is brilliant. And as I'm looking at it, too, I can totally see how you've got. I know. I'm laughing because, like, under spiritual formation and discipleship, you've got Prophetic Lament by Sung Chan Ra, who I love. [00:32:53] Speaker B: But. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yes. Let's not start there. [00:32:55] Speaker B: Don't start there. [00:32:57] Speaker A: Blow your mind. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You don't. You don't want to start you know, the week after you give your heart an academic look into lament, you know. [00:33:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:10] Speaker B: But, you know, as somebody's growing in their faith, I think that learning how to properly lament the world around us and our own sin is really important, you know, and so, yeah, that. That's. That's what's fun about creating your own resources for your own community is these are things that we want our community, you know, to do. I mean, I can't. I can't remember. Like, I think the first thing that I put on there was, like, recommended devotionals. Yeah. I think there's maybe six or seven, like, actual devotionals that people can go from this one to another one and. And then from there, like, reading. So I'm definitely that person that, like, my brain goes a million miles an hour. I am not a natural reader, but when I started to learn my own rhythm, like, I have to. If I really want to read, I have to listen to it, and I have to have it in front of me. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Okay. [00:34:05] Speaker B: It cost me double to actually read a good book, but for a long time, I wouldn't read. Like, in my. In my early 20s, before I went back for my master's degree, I wouldn't read because I would get really distracted, and it would take me 10 minutes to meet. Read one page. And, you know, I mean, even as we're sitting here, I just saw a bluebird land on the fence. And I'm sitting here talking to you, and I'm going, man, that's beautiful bird. You know, that's the way that I. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:29] Speaker B: And so trying to read is very, very hard for me, but I learned my own rhythm. And so audio is really important to me, and it changed my life. Reading other people's words is not reading the words of Jesus, but it's reading their interpretation of what Jesus has done for them. And I can learn from that. And so. [00:34:50] Speaker A: Yeah, well, at the beginning, not only in the resources, do you have some apps and some websites, and, like, I love the Bible project. It's videos. Everybody can sit down and watch a video. But even at the very beginning, before people start, you're like, grab a Bible or a Bible app. So already you're telling people, like, hey, if you don't have a physical Bible, pull your phone out. You probably have one of those, and start there, you know? Yeah, that's great. All right, well, David, for people who are. Two kind of related last questions. For people who are listening, who consider themselves to be solid believers, and we've already told them this is a discipleship book. They could read it. Right. What can they do for people around them? They can buy the book, they can give it to people as a resource, as a tool. What else can people do to encourage maybe new believers that are in their lives? [00:35:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say that a big shift that I'd love to see for the Kingdom of God in general is for pastors to teach folks like that that they can walk with their own friends and family through something like this, you know? You know, like, I want to, like, speak directly to that person right now that might be listening. Like, you don't need Pastor Kristen or, you know, pastors, you know, in the church, Naim Ashley. Like, you don't need them to disciple your friends. Like, it's actually way better when you're meeting up with coffee for somebody every other week and. And you're just able to say, hey, pull out. Pull out the thing that we've been reading and you may have some notes that you want to, like, talk about it or something like that. And so to me, what I want people to see is that they can. They can walk with their friends through their first steps of faith or people who have known Jesus for a long time, let's be honest, that don't read the Bible, they could also take this and just learn the rhythm of Bible reading and prayer. And so when I first was trying to decide if I was going to turn this into, like, a thing that was for anybody, I called 10 pastors around the country and I asked them what they were doing for new believers. And this is not like, to throw shade on any of them. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Sure. [00:37:12] Speaker B: None of them had a specific path of what they were doing for new believers. They said that they would have them read the Book of John or they would, you know, there was no systematic plan of specific to. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:28] Speaker B: What do I do when my friend gives their heart to Jesus or, you know, somebody at our church gives their heart to Jesus? And. And so that's why this has become something that, you know. Yeah, I mean, I definitely would love for people to buy it for their friends. I mean, we have like, @newbelieverbook.com we've got like, on Amazon, it's Amazon pricing. It's like full price. But newbelieverbook.com like, we have like, buy one for you and buy one for a friend. It's like, discounted. There's like a box of 20 for like, seven bucks a book. I mean, you're not going to find it at that price anywhere. Right. We you know, for churches, we sell. We sell them to churches for $5 a book. Like, we're not doing this to make money. We're doing this to try and, you know, really spark and encourage discipleship within churches. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so last question, and I'm going to pivot just a tiny bit away from people who are ready for this book and go to the people that maybe aren't there yet. So since the podcast is called Becoming Church. Right. How can our listeners become the church to people around them? Maybe those who are especially, like, seeking but are not solidified yet, maybe are not even ready to say, I'm accepting Jesus. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:41] Speaker A: What can they do? [00:38:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I would say that people, God has gifted every single person with unique interests, abilities. And the more that you can live into those interests and abilities while taking your faith with you, I think the better. And so it's finding those moments to walk along somebody. Like, at the beginning of the interview, we talked about that the model of Jesus was so much just walk from one place to another with people, whatever that looks like for us. But I think my encouragement would be. But be ready to pivot to Jesus when somebody is hurting or be ready to pivot when you. When you sense that the Holy Spirit has given you a moment. So, yes, like, if you have an interest in, you know, like, anything in the community, anything that you would want to do, just remember you're taking Jesus with you into these different social settings, into, you know, your work, into, you know, your interest in, you know, my family's, like, way into soccer, so we have a lot of soccer friends, but we also have real human beings that are on those soccer teams and fans of Charlotte fc, you know, our favorite soccer club. And. And so when we sense that somebody is hurting or when we sense that somebody is seeking, there's always this moment of, like, I still get nervous, like, am I really going to do this? Am I. Am I going to make the jump and say, hey, you know, where we come from, you know, and we haven't talked about this a lot, but, you know, this is what Jesus has meant to me in these type of settings. So it's just having that courage to walk with people, not trying to force our faith on them, but also having the courage. It's like patience and courage. I think that's what I would say is like patience to walk with people long enough to get to that moment where you can. You have to have the courage to point to where our true source of life and hope and healing is in Jesus. [00:40:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And like you said earlier, believing that those gifts for the church are for everyone. [00:40:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:48] Speaker A: And that we all have, you know, we don't have to have the right answer. We don't have to worry about. I love that you said that. You still get nervous. Like, that just, I think, breaks down so many, you know, stereotypes of, like. [00:40:59] Speaker B: And this is literally my job, whatever. [00:41:01] Speaker A: Right, right. So that we can all do this and nobody has a perfect, you know, script for it or whatever. [00:41:08] Speaker B: So, you know, one of the things that. One of my final thoughts would be when. When we moved here to Winston, it was just a whole bunch of new people, and. And all these people were asking questions about Jesus and. And God just reminded me so graciously. It was just in my daily devotions. I just came across this part in the New Testament, and it says that the Holy Spirit is the one that draws. [00:41:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker B: It's not us that saves people. And that was. I'm 44 years old, and I've been in ministry since I was 18, you know, like. Like. Like getting paid to do ministry, you know, for 26 years now. And here I am on my back porch going, God, thank you for that reminder that it's not my job to save people. It's not my job to save this world or my community. That my job is to be a faithful witness. And sometimes being a faithful witness is just patiently walking, and sometimes it's courageously saying it's like, it's time to point to Jesus, like, very specifically, but it's not my job to save. And. And that is the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will draw. And. And then we're not the ones that are the ones that have to close the deal, so to speak. [00:42:22] Speaker A: Right. Right. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:24] Speaker A: It takes off so much pressure to go, all right, God, I'm just making the introduction. [00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:28] Speaker A: You're already talking to this person. Right. Not even that. You're already talking to this person. I'm just going to make sure they know that they're in this conversation. And then pressure's off. I believe that you can do it measurably more than all I can ask or imagine. So guess what? You see it through, you finish it out. And if not. [00:42:45] Speaker B: That's really funny. I actually. [00:42:46] Speaker A: It's not on me. [00:42:47] Speaker B: I'm gonna. I'm gonna write that one down and think about that a little bit more because, like, just before we jumped on, I introduced two friends from different parts of the country that I was like, you guys need to know each other. Like, and. And I just sat there and listened to them getting to know each other, and it's like, that's how. That's such a great way to think about that is I know Jesus, like, he means so much to me and, like, making the introduction saying, hey, you guys, do what you want to do, but this is how much Jesus means to me, and y'all figure it out, you know? And so hopefully the book can help somebody figure that out. But, like, yeah, that's great. Excellent. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Lots of good things to think about today. I love it. David, thank you so much. This has been really wonderful, and it's really great having you. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to encourage everybody. God's word is the lamp to guide our feet and a light for our path. I just pray that wouldn't stray off left and right when it's dark and confusing. Stay on the path left foot by the light of God's word. [00:43:59] Speaker A: That beautiful prayer of David's was the final prayer in his book Tomorrow and the Days to Come, as well as a prayer that he prays over his people every single week. I love his idea of getting these books in pairs, one for you and one for a friend, to do together. It's so much less intimidating to gift a book to a friend when you're just inviting them to go through it with you. And I am telling you, it is a quick and easy read. If you want to know more about figuring out what your spiritual gifts are and how God created you uniquely in order that he can work in and through you, check out the tools below, where you can learn your spiritual gifts as well as your enneagram. And if you're local to Charlotte and want help unpacking those gifts, we'd love for you to join us at X Factor, a class at Mosaic, where we help you better understand what those gifts mean and how you can learn to use them confidently. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming church to the people around.