Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Aubrey Sampson. She is an author, pastor, and one of my new favorite voices on Grief and Hard Seasons because she is just so real now, while she does mention some losses that she's been through, this episode will not be hard or heavy. There are moments of joy and laughter, and I'm praying that it brings you hope no matter what season you're in today.
All right, Aubrey, welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Thank you, Kristin, for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Yes, I know we were. I was laughing because pre interview, we were trying to, like, make sure we were the same height and all of the things and other things that people.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Don'T know, like if you're. If your listeners could see us, or maybe this is on YouTube, but, like, I'm on pillows now, so I look the same height as you. And yes, we were talking about, like, do one of us looks paler than the other. You know, we're making it work. They did put bronze around everywhere. Like, where did it go?
[00:01:14] Speaker A: This is what happens when I have to podcast from my house because my kids are home from school again because of the weather.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Bless your heart. Keeping it real. This is what moms do.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. Well, we're doing it. We're doing it. Listen, you can't see that I have my.
My systematic theology book by Wayne Grud. I literally use it only ever as, like, a prop for my laptop. And that's why I seem higher than you, because it does make a nice little shelf that makes me very happy.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: We own that book, and I know how thick it is. And so, yeah, that's a good little. That's a good little prop for your computer.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: It's a good reason to keep it around, you know.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: That's amazing.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Well, you are a pastor and a therapist, right?
[00:02:01] Speaker B: I'm not a therapist, but. I know, but I love and write about emotional health, and I have been in therapy quite a bit. So, yes, I am a. I am a pastor and I'm a coach. So there's, you know, there's some crossover for sure, but no, it would be really unethical for me to call myself a therapist.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Okay. I mean, like, you know, not had the training.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: Right, right, exactly. Exactly. You know, I like therapists.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Yes, you do write a lot about grief and emotions and these heavy things. So where did you get your.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Outside of was it just all lived experience?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Unfortunately, it's sort of like the club that you don't want to be invited into.
So my. Yes. Most of what I write about is on grief and lament and hard, hard things. I was actually. I have a prayer partner. We meet on Tuesday mornings and we were joking. Like, it's time for me to write a book on like hope or like 40 days through the storm into the sun. You know, like, it's time to move on. But I. Yes, in. I will just kind of quickly share this in 2015. So about 10 years ago, we opened. My husband and I planted a church in West Chicago and beautiful church called Renewal Church. But the week that we opened the doors to our church, lots of like, everything hit the fan. So I got really sick with an autoimmune disease. Our son, we found out, had something wrong with his spinal cord and had to have spinal cord surgery and be in like, long term medical care for probably two or three years after that. He's doing great now by the grace of God, like, really. But. And then I lost someone very, very dear to me very tragically and unfortunately. I mean, I don't think this is unique to me. This is the way life goes. I have lost just several people in my life that are like my people, starting with that loss in 2015. And so I honestly am a writer and needed to figure out where God was in that. And I did so through literally like banging on my keyboard like, okay, God, I don't see you. I don't know where you are. I don't know what to do here. And you know, I've been a Christian for a long time in 2015 when everything hit the fan. But I don't think I was ever formed in a tradition where I knew how to process suffering and lament. Yeah, I just didn't. And so it was the first time in my Christian walk. And again, I mean, I've been a person of faith at that point for like over 20 years. I'd been in ministry, but it was the first time in my walk that I was like, oh, have I been praying to the ceiling fan the whole time? Or like, God, are you doing something in this? And so for me, that the writing on mental health, emotions, grief, suffering, has really just been like, I have to figure this out or I won't survive as a person of faith. If that makes sense.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it totally does. I know I grew up.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: My gosh.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: We lost my grandmother was the first loss that, like, I really remember. And we experienced, and she had. Had been like, in and out of cancer. And it was really hard on the whole family, but it was really, really hard on my dad. And I was so close to my dad that then it was really, really hard on me. And.
But I just remember and my parents, you know, doing the best that they could, but we did not talk about, like, death or grief. Like, we would talk about her and everyone would cry. And so all I really learned. And I was 15 when she died. It's not kid.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: But that was my first experience ever talking about any kind of loss. And then all I really learned from it was like, we love God and we go to church and we know grandma's in heaven. Like, we totally believe that she's in a better place and she's not in pain, but we just have to be sad whenever we remember her.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: And so I wonder if you had a similar upbringing of, like, we just do sad, but we don't talk about it or give it any other.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that. That is interesting. I don't think I would have said it like that, but now that you're saying it, that was definitely true. It's. We can be sad. But I mean, I can even remember some of my family members speaking of losing a grandma, when I lost my grandma, going, okay, we're done now. Like, it was sort of like, we've grieved. We've had the funeral.
Of course we miss her. But like that. Yeah. So there wasn't. We didn't talk. We have. We didn't talk about losses. Oh. Oh. I'm still feeling this thing that I'm feeling about this. Or here's some questions that have ar because of this. Here's where I'm wrestling. Because of this. What is death? I mean, you know, like, those types of things. It was compartmentalized is probably what you're talking about. It was like, here's the space for the person who died and what you do with that. And that's it.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I understand in some ways we have to cope. Right. So there's some skill in that. But I think the unhealth in it, or maybe the. The. The not robustness of it is that grief is not just here. Right. It is, you know, and it doesn't honor your own pain or the person you lost to keep it only here all the time.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: Right.
So what are you doing? And we'll get into your books and the way that you're helping people when you're writing, but what are you Doing yourself. Like, I know you've got a son. You've got, like, as a parent, what are you doing to kind of teach him a different way to grieve or even yourself or even the people in your church?
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I. One of the. I have three sons, so I am a, like, full boy mom, 18, 16, and 13. So it's. It's fun in our home, actually, right now. I will say a few things when I've always been very intentional, and maybe too much, but very intentional about just letting my kids feel what they feel and kind of helping them even name. Oh, what you're feeling right now is, let's say, anger. That's anger. Now, there are appropriate ways to express anger and inappropriate ways to express anger. But it's okay that you're angry. I understand that you're angry. Let's talk about your anger. Okay. What you're feeling right now is sadness. Let's talk about that. Or even what you're feeling right now is conflicted emotions. You are ambivalent. Like, you feel a couple different ways about a thing. Like, that's very normal. And I know. I mean, that might sound basic, but I feel like I wasn't necessarily given that permission, and a lot of people aren't. And even for me, I mean, I'll be honest, When I. In therapy in college, when my therapist taught me the word ambitious, you feel ambivalent about something. I was like, what? It, like, blew my mind that it was okay to have mixed feelings about something. So you know how language does that. Like, it just gives people permission and freedom and validation. That's really what I've tried very intentionally to do with our boys. And then I will say the other pieces, especially leading our church and something that I'm really, really passionate about is the spiritual language and spiritual practice of lament, which is particularly like articulating your grief and pain, your protest, your anger to God and doing so publicly or doing so in a form.
And so I will say that's like, when I'm discipling or when I'm shepherding, when I'm preaching. I will often give people handholds for how you begin the practice of lament. And my boys, I mean, they'll make fun of me now. Like, they'll be like, okay, mom, we're going to lament again. You know what I mean?
So, again, they're still my kids and.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: You know, but those. Those two things, like validating, naming emotions, has been so important for our family. I mean, we even have one of the emotion wheels, you know, and it'll be like, that's so great. Yeah. Like, here, pick the word. How are you feeling today?
And then. Yeah. Teaching our church what it means to lament. And even we do some, like, calendar sermon series around lament or services around lament, that kind of thing.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: That's great. That's great. We have actually talked about doing that at our church. I'm a pastor, too.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Oh, nice.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Here in Charlotte. And so we've talked about how to do that. We haven't gotten all the way to, like, a lament series or service yet, but we did do is.
We recently had something called the night of hope, where we just kind of let people come together and process all of the thoughts and emotions that they've been having, you know, the last couple weeks.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: It was really great because people were angry and people cried and they were tender, but also we laughed together. And it. It built just this sense of, like, trust and community and not only trust within the relationships that they were finding with each other, but also with our church and just as, like, a leadership team.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: So good.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: They know, hey, we can come and show up here no matter how we feel. And we don't have to pretend. You have to put a mask on to, like, show up to church. We can just show up because that's how we can show up with God.
[00:10:45] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah, that's exactly right. Krista. That's so beautiful. I. And I think people are longing for that in a church.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: They are.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: It, you know, it. It builds health, it builds safety, it builds trust. And that's Christian community. At the end of the day, to be able to be like, here I am. I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm tender. But let's also laugh. Like, that's so beautiful to me that you guys did that.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And it took some explaining because we sent the first email to our church and people were like, literally like, what is it? We have no idea. We do not even know. And I was like, did you read the email? We signed it. They're like, yeah, we don't get it. Like, we don't know what's happening. What are we signing up for?
[00:11:21] Speaker B: That's amazing.
Yeah. And hopefully that becomes, like, a rhythm. You do. And it's so normalized. So when they get the email, they know what it is.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: I also feel like church people don't read emails. Like, aren't you, like, did you really, though?
[00:11:35] Speaker A: Yes.
My favorite is I signed up for it, but I don't know what it is. Oh, we'll see you there, I guess.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: You're so welcome. You're invited. Everyone's welcome.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Well, before we get to what we find in the Dark, your new book. That is the most recent one to come out. I do have to highlight this Big Feeling Days. If you can't see, I'm holding up Aubrey's children's book.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: I love that book, which.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad that you talked about communication with your boys, because my. I was a psychology minor and also been to therapy, and that's the closest that I have. Well, and I taught kindergarten for a long time.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Oh, precious.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: So I kind of have that, like, child development.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: But I remember my husband laughing at me when the girls were, I mean, little. I was, like, changing their diapers, and I was telling them. I'm like, oh, you're mad right now because I have to do this.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Oh, you did.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Before they could even speak.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: I was just so good.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: Giving them language and giving them emotions, and I can't tell you how. We are a very, very, very big feeling household.
All of us love it. So having those words and being able to learn, like, hey, this is. You're allowed to feel this. We've got different things. We have a unicorn punching bag in our house.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Amazing. Are you serious? It's a unicorn punch.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: It's a unicorn. Because I have daughters. I was like, what do we do? We got to get out this anger and frustration.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. Oh, it's so. I love it. I love it.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I highly recommend Big Feeling Days. I read this book, and I just weep. Like, I just. Because it is so precious and it is so tender, and it is so exactly. Perfectly what kids with big feelings need.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: You have Jesus actually in the pages with them. Like, he's holding. Oh, my gosh. I can't even.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: That picture right there is so precious. Yes.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: While he cries and tells him that it's okay because sometimes he has big feelings, too. I'm like, I'm.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: I. I appreciate it. I really. That book was like. That book is precious to me. And even those. Those images of Jesus, like, I. Sometimes I'm like, you're holding me like that, too, Jesus. But I do feel like that book is, of course, it's for big feelings kids, but I think it is for, like, the little inner. The inner kid and all of the adults. Right? Yes. Yeah.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: We all have a little bit of something that needs, like, either parented or absol. Held by Jesus.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted, you know, I I didn't feel like there are a lot of books that show Jesus having human emotions.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: There's not.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: So that's part of what I wanted is like, let's see. I mean, you know, we have these stories in scripture. Jesus got mad, Jesus got sad, you know, so let's show that part of Jesus's humanity. And then I think that helps us even love his divinity more. So.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah. No, truly think it is like one of my favorite books of all time. I'm not even kidding. When I saw that your what we do in the Dark was coming out and then I made the connection between that it was this book I truly booked you because I was like, I need to talk to her about big healing things.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Oh, that makes me so happy. Seriously, it's like there's something about, you know, you write adult books and it's a little vulnerable. Right. Because you're like, will, will. My peers like it. Will it minister to people? But there's something about a kids book where you just know, like, the little hearts are going to be stewarded and it's just pure, like, joy for it to be out in the world.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: So it's always fun for me to talk about big healing. Say so. Thank you. I'm glad you like it.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: You're so welcome. All right, now we can talk about what most of our listeners are probably here for. What we. Sorry, I misspoke. What we find in the dark, lost hope in God's presence and grief. Now, I know you also have the louder song, which you mentioned, that's like 10 or 15 years old.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that is not. That was kind of born out of an experience about 10 years ago. But yeah, that book, I think came out in 2017, maybe. So it's not that old. But that's a book specifically on lament. Like, what it is.
What lament is how we lament. And some of it born from that same. Those stories I was talking about in 2015 when, like, everything hit the fan.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Yes. So what is this one different?
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So what we find in the dark. I.
Two years ago, I lost my very best friend. My. My, like, person that I talk to every single day. My ride or die girl to breast cancer.
And so what we find in the dark was partly born. I didn't really intend to write this necessarily as a book for other people to read, but as Jen was dying, I had this really unique experience. Well, I thought it was unique. I've come to realize lots of Christians throughout history have experienced this. But where God sort Of it felt like God was removing a sense of his presence.
So where I've been in other loss before that I've written about before in the louder song and I felt God comforting me and showing up for me with the loss of Jen, all I sensed was an absence from God. And what I discovered in that season is that's actually known historically as the dark night of the soul. And we tend to use the dark night of the soul as like a catch all phrase that just can mean wilderness or difficulty or darkness or spiritual doubt or something like that. But, but technically the phrase is about a sense of God removing his absence from you and kind of obscuring your ability to sense him. And now we know from scripture, God never leaves us nor forsakes us, but there are these moments where God seems to remove at least a quote felt sense of his presence. So you're like, so what we find in the dark was me literally grappling through the darkness of my grief. It was probably the. One of the worst losses I've ever been been through.
Not sensing God in it. Yeah. And trying to figure out how to have faith in all of that. And so it the book, honestly, I. I had a friend who had had twin babies and so she was up as I was grieving. My best friend Jen, she was up in the middle of the night nursing her kids and she would just text me like 2:00am, 4:00am hey, how you doing? I'm awake. Are you? Because I couldn't really sleep after I lost Jen. And I was like, yeah, I'm awake.
And one day she texted me, you need to be writing, like get up and write. And so I honestly, when I couldn't sleep, I would go in the darkness in my kitchen, open up my computer and just write like ugly things. God, where are you? God, how could you?
And I would say something about that process began to be like a lifeline for me. A prayer for me, a hope for me, an act of worship for me. I was like grappling towards God when I couldn't experience God. And so then ultimately that became the book. What we find in the darkest processing, like what is God doing in the darkness? And what is God doing when our grief is so heavy? And what is God doing when it seems like he's pulling back? Yeah, certainly he's not. So what is that about? And those were some of the questions that I began to ask and even try to answer in the book.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: How were you able to do it? Like, I know that you've been a Christian in Ministry. But how were you able to, when you did not feel him, when you felt isolated, like, still sit down and write this beautiful, hopeful book? And I would say by not writing ugly things, but real things.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah, real things. That's a good way to put it. That's a better way to put it.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah. How are you? Like, I just feel like I would have been like, I'm done. Like, I'm done. I just. I need a season. Yeah, you deal with your people. I'm like, I just need a break.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's. It's funny because I. I read the audiobook recently.
Like, recorded the audiobook recently, and as I was reading it. So this is, like, almost two years later, right? Since I finished the book. Maybe a year and a half later since I finished the long process to write. Yes. So I'm reflecting back on where I was in that season, and I'm reading my own words, and I'm like, oh, that girl needed a break. Oh, that girl should not have been writing. Oh, that girl was. You know what I mean? Like. Like, I'm feeling so sorry for my, like, former self a few years ago, like, oh, she needed to, like, step back a little bit. So I. I don't know. I think some of it's just wiring. Like, God made me a writer, and I literally think and pray with my fingertips. So some of it is, like, if I wasn't doing that, I would have just, like, been like, okay, I'm out. Like, I. I'm. I'm done.
And some of it was just. I mean, literally, like, I am grabbing for the, like, hem of Jesus's robe and making him wrestle with me. Or, like, again, I'm out. You know, I can't. Like, I was like, I have to find you here. Or, like, it's. My whole Christian life is a joke. You know what I mean? Like, that's how desperate the stakes felt for me.
And it's interesting, though. I've recently been through another pretty tremendous loss, and I've done the opposite. I have said, last time I wrote a book and I produced, like, I'm resting now. My. My body and my soul need to rest. It's just been too much now. Rest for me. I still am doing a lot because that's just how I built. But it's different than before where I was like, I will make art from this. You know what I mean? Now I'm like, it's going to be fine. Everything will be okay. I just need to, like, give my soul some space now. Good, good.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: And I'm glad you're doing that.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: God will honor that. Listen, if there's another book to come out of this loss, then it will come in due time.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Let me break in really quick to remind you that you can get all of the books you hear about on these episodes on our Becoming Church Resource list on Amazon. Your purchase with our affiliate link will throw a few pennies, and I do mean pennies, into our tide box, but that list is there for you, so you can always find the titles that you want to read or give to someone else. The link is in the show notes.
Well, I was really glad when I was reading through your book that you referenced Barbara Brown Taylor's Learning to Walk in the Dark.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: Love that book.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Which was a game changer, I think, for the way a lot of Christians see darkness, myself included.
How did looking at darkness in scripture kind of change your faith?
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it was interesting because, of course, like, there are so lots of moments in scripture where darkness is representative of evil, right? Yes, yes. And so that's in scripture. We can't deny that that's in scripture. But I think what Barbara Brown Taylor helped me see and as I began to look at scripture as well, is like, wait, but there's this other type of darkness that scripture talks about that's a little more like mystery or obscurity. And, you know, Isaiah talks about there are treasures there.
You know, Barbara Brown Taylor talks about how it's sort of like this time of like leaning in, right? Almost like a hushed silence makes you go, wait, what? Like that God uses darkness to cause you to lean in closer into intimacy with him. And St. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila talk about darkness. They wouldn't have used the term magnet, but almost like a magnet where, like, God pulling away, but it causes you to draw closer. And so we see that in Scripture, like, sometimes God seems to obscure the path someone's on or obscure the. Hide his. You know, hide his face. But all of that causes the faithful person to lean in more or to wrestle more or to. You know what I mean? And so I think for me, I began to see darkness as.
I mean, not something I really want anyone to walk through, but as, like, there is an invitation here that is not available in sunnier seasons. And it's something about our intimacy with God. And it's something about removing the pretenses, the falsehoods, the way we. We try to either make ourselves presentable or make God presentable for us. You know what I Mean, like, there's something about God going, you know, I'm not as domesticated as you think I am, and I'm not as formulaic as you think I am. And. And I'm not as small as you think I am. And there's something about the darkness that, like, blows the doors a little bit off of, like, the containers we put God in or we put our own faith in, you know? And, I mean, other people have written about this, of course, but there is just something about mystery that the darkness invites you to go, okay, okay, God, you're the Lord and I'm not. And there's mystery here, and I'm going to learn to, like, grapple through it.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Period.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: And learn to be okay with the not knowing.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Which is one of the hardest parts is like, I think people are good to lean into mystery to a point. They're like, oh, let me lean into the mystery so that I can understand it.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Like, no, you're gonna lean into the mystery because you cannot understand.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: You can't understand it. Like. And so you're just gonna lean into the mystery to be in the mystery. You know, it's like, ah, it kind of breaks your brain a little bit, but God's there.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: But it'll be better for you once you can get to the point of realizing and admitting, I'm not gonna know and I'm not gonna figure it out. And that's just where we have to live.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And trusting, like, God is doing something in it that's good and that there is a day, like, there's that great eschaton. Right. One day we meet Jesus face to face and at least just have all of our tears wiped away and death shall be no more. Like, all those things, like, I think some of it is the mystery of now and then holding on to that future promise.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you talk in the book, Aubrey, about things that you lose in the dark as well as things that we can find in the dark.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: And so what is something that you have lost in the dark that you had to come to terms with, realizing, like, this may never come back or come back the same. And I realize that can be a very heavy question.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: So you can answer that as, like, you know, your view of who God was. Something like, answer that however you see fit.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. That does. That makes me want to cry.
You know, of course, some of it is just the reality of loss, like, the people you lose are gone. But I will say some of it is related to what we've Been talking about.
I think there was a way that I connected with God. So as an example, pretty traditionally, get up in the morning, read my. Do my devos, write in my journal. God speaks to me, close it, say a little prayer, go about my day, you know, and, like, I say that with some, like, you know, I. I'm being a little cynical, but I actually mean that. Like, that's how God met me for years. And that was, like, my faithful ritual. Like Jesus and me met by. In my yellow chair by the fireplace. I've written about that in other books. That's like, my sacred place.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: And I would say one of the things that I lost in the darkness was that, like, I know that sounds very strange, but, like, that was, quote, no longer working, if that makes sense. Yeah. And realizing that that's okay was a found thing. So it was like losing that. But then also because I think I was, like, beating myself up. What am I doing wrong? Why can't I hear from God? Why isn't this quote, unquote, working and. And doing what it's supposed to?
So, like, okay, Lord, if. If. If I've outgrown that, or the season isn't allowing for that anymore, what are the ways that we connect?
And, I mean, there is a little bit of a sadness in it because there's some simplicity in just knowing I'm gonna open my Bible and my journal and God's gonna show up and, you know, and my coffee and my cute.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Pens and I set a timer and, like.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
And so when that kind of. I mean, you know, again, like, I'm. I'm saying quit working in quotes. Like, that's a funny thing to talk about, but what then are the other ways that I connect with God? And some of it, I mean, to be honest, like, you know, we've already talked about big feelings days. I am a feeler. So for a season two, I couldn't even open my Bible because I was very angry at God for not healing my best friend Jen. And then angry that it seemed like he wasn't showing up in ways that he was before. And so there were moments when, like, on that yellow chair in my little coffee table where my Bible and journal sit, I would just walk by it and go, oh, I. Nope, I'm not gonna deal with you today. No, we're not going there today. And it's funny because the whole time I'm a teaching pastor, so I'm still, like, preparing sermons. But as far as, like, the intimate kind of personal, devotional time, um, so it's strange to talk about how that feels lost, but I remember I had a conversation with another Bible teacher, really someone a lot more seasoned than me. And she was like, when that happens, I get on my face and, like, I am literally like, God, where are you? And she was like, I will not stop contending until I sense God's spirit again. And that was pretty convicting for me because I think it was easier for me to just be like, well, I'm out. You know what I mean? And to hear her say, no, I posture myself before God and be like, I cannot function unless you show up. And, yeah, that, I think began to kind of change the way I was like, okay, I need. I need to grapple through this, even if it's. Even if God is not meeting me in the, quote, formulaic ways he used to.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's really good. And I. I think, too, it's important to just remind people, listening, that, like, there's a timeline. Everybody has their own timeline. And so if their yellow chair is not working, you know, maybe getting on their face on the ground and, like, demanding God show up, like, also might not work.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: It might not.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: And that's okay. And it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you or your faith.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: You're doing it wrong. Or that you don't have big. And it just.
Everybody. It's just different. It's just different for everybody. And we don't know why. Again, it's that mystery and not knowing. But I just want to say that really clearly. Like, I love that idea of, like, no, God, you are going to show up for me. But also, he does what he wants.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: He does what he wants. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, like, I think that is so important because there. Because, I mean, you know, there were times that I was just like, okay, well, I can't do that, and I don't have the energy or the strength or even the desire to do that.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Yes. So then what? You know what I mean? So that's where I think other beautiful spiritual practices just, like, listening or waiting or sleeping. You know what I mean? Like, I think you're exactly right. Like, you don't necessarily. You can't force God to do what you want God to do. So some of it is just being like, okay, Lord, I'm here. I want to connect with you, but you got to show me how.
[00:31:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Love that. My friend Tabitha Panariso, I don't know if you know her. She also is in a similar. She's an author. She Just put her first book out and she does a similar vein of uf. She is a therapist.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: Grief and loss and things. And she had a post on her substack recently about the loss of a friend. Not like a death loss, but she just made this gorgeous post about. I still go to the places that remind me of you and all of. I mean, I was sobbing because it was so relatable and so real. But her words kind of just helped me to remember that even when I'm feeling, you know, the loss of people that I could truly run into, like.
[00:31:50] Speaker B: Yeah, right, right.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: That, that grief kind of helps me to remember that they mattered. And so I try to hold on to that of, like, this is what our lives were like when they were, you know, entwined and together. And what a difference you made for me when, like, the threat of their absence tries to take over.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: You know?
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I, I actually love that I'm gonna have to write that down and read that. I'll send it to you. But that's so true. I mean, and something about, like, that honors. This was a real relationship.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: And honors your own heartache. Why it might hurt so much.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: And somehow I, I think some people are afraid to even, like, do that kind of thing because they think it means you'll get stuck.
Right. You won't be able to move forward and heal. But I actually think the opposite is true. I think if you ignore that kind of thing, like, you might, like, it might be band aided. You might be shut off from it, but that's not healing. Right. It's gonna come out sideways somewhere. So to be able to stop and like, yeah, memorialize or ritualize or name or whatever it is here was a real relationship, and there is an absence there. Now is part of the healing process, I think.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Right. Well, I think if we don't do that, it comes out sideways as, like, bitterness or cynicism instead of, like, this tenderness of remembering and, like I said, honoring, like, what was.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right, right. Learning. Right. Because it can be your tendency. Could be. I'm just thinking of your example, like, to villainize or to, like, just door slam, we're done.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: Instead of going, no. There were some beautiful memories that we shared together. We had, you know, lots of, you know, great times when we loved each other. Well. And for whatever reason, the season of life is what it is. It's interesting. Like, I think about, I, I, I think about grief tends to do that too. Like, sometimes grief becomes a little bit of a, like a watershed for some relationships, there are people who can stay with you through the grief and people who, for whatever reason, just can't. And it. It might be their own aversion to grief and pain. It might just be season of life. Like they've got other things going on. And. And so it's not always motivated by something. It just. Sometimes grief kind of creates this line in the sand where you're surprised by some people who show up and some people who don't.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: And so then you do. It is sort of a strange thing to process. Other losses that happen because of a significant. A significant loss in your life. Yeah.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: And I think we have to remember that. That compassion, too. Of like. Because I. I am the first to say I go bitter and cynical.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: You weren't here for me.
[00:34:35] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah. You hate me and whatever. You know, when really, like, like, maybe like you just said, they just can't for whatever reason and they don't have the words to explain. And so all they know how to do is pull back and.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: There's so. I mean, so many emotions, so many assumptions.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Yes. It's so true. You can fill in the gap with all kinds of stories and. And I do think it. Then it helps you when you're the one walking with someone who's grieving.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: To sort of know, here's how I. Here's how I lean in rather than walk away or. I know I don't have capacity to hold this, but I can love them from afar. I mean, I thinks it helps you, like, empathize and walk in a different way when you see other. When you're walking with someone else who's hurting, when you've been there.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: Right, right.
So we talked about what you lost in the darkness. What did you find while you were in darkness?
[00:35:26] Speaker B: I think that's such an important question.
And one of the things that I found and, you know, I. This really blows my mind when I think about it, losing Jen. I just thought I lost. I mean, I lost my best friend and I just thought I'm never going to have friends again like her. I'm never going to love someone like her. I'm never going to be loved because, you know, 20 years of, like, life and friendship and ministry and marriages and babies and all of it, you know, and what I have found in the dark is that God provided friends for me. Like, really, really good friends for me. Amazing women, amazing leaders who just got it and, like, walked with me. And that was such a gift in my darkness.
And I. I mean, it Makes me want to bawl my eyes out. But I. It really just like a pain point that I thought, I'll never have another friend like Jen.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: That.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: And I won't. I won't have another friend like Jen. But the Lord has provided just like wonderful, wonderful female friends for me. And then, I mean, the other thing is, and I know this might sound like a cheesy Sunday school answer, but I did find Jesus. Like, I just, you know, I just realizing, like, no, Jesus knows darkness. Jesus has been through suffering. Jesus is not afraid. Jesus drew near to people who were hurting Jesus. Like, Jesus shows up with little lights in the darkness. And I knew that, but it's one thing to know it and then actually experience the presence of Jesus after sensing so much darkness and sadness. That was really a gift for me. And I was really careful in the book not to be like, and day breaks, and so now everything's okay. But I really did try to bear witness to, like, what were the night lights in the darkness, the little stars that God was like, like coming towards me with, towards you with, and towards the other herders with, and towards people throughout history with. And I. I did find Jesus there, or Jesus found me. There might be a better way to say it.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you kind of reference, like the head knowledge and the heart felt like, you know, we can know it versus actually feeling it. I mean, it's the same. You mentioned earlier, you know, you were a teaching pastor who was like, prepping sermons while you also could not find, like, that is a phenomenon that unless you're in ministry, I don't think you can understand. Like, there have been really seasons where I'm like, I don't know if I believe what I'm saying right now, but I have to get up and preach it on Sunday to all these people. And it is so bizarre because I remember the first time I experienced that going to my pastor, and I was like, I can't. I can't preach Sunday. And I told him and he was like, like, girl. He's like, welcome, welcome to ministry. He was like, here's the thing. If I thought that you genuinely did not believe.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: What you were saying, I would pull you right this second.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: He was like, but I know that you do, right? Because you're prepping this and you're saying it and you're. And he was like, this is just the thing of ministry is sometimes it's really hard to reconcile what we're feeling and what we're saying. And there is. Is totally something to be said for spiritual attack when you're trying to, like.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: Teach and all of the things. But. But yeah, I think even people that are listening can understand.
There are things that we know in our head about God.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Or even Jesus. But then we don't always necessarily have that connection in our hearts and our spirits.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah. It is a strange sort of cognitive dissonance. And then to, and then to just go, okay, well then that's faith. Right? Like, yes. So then I'll choose to have faith that these things I'm preaching are real or believing are real. The stories I've, I've given my life to are real, even when I can't, quote, feel it. And I do think that's part of the dark night of the soul is you realize, like, oh, faith is actually not about a feeling. You know what I mean? Yes. And that's part of what God is doing in that. But I love that you're. I love that your pastor said that. Like, if I really thought that. But we know you actually do believe these things. You're just, you're a human, you're a limited human. Having a moment like every other Christian throughout history.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: You know, that's just, that's faith. That's the journey.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you for the encouragement.
So there, I think there is a difference, Aubry, in like dark seasons where, you know, people are experiencing a particular loss or they're grieving a specific thing versus and I don't know if this is the best terminology, but it's what I got right now, like a dark timeline where you just kind of look around and I would say people, some people right now are looking around and they're like, everything looks dark. And I feel like, how do we cope with those differently? There's like this little, you know, I know this is here versus what do we, what do we do?
[00:40:25] Speaker B: This is ongoing. Yeah. Like, this is like a long suffering type of darkness versus like, like, yeah, there's. There's some darkness. There's a reason for it you can name.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: I lost my job or I had a miscarriage or I broke up with someone or you know, my kid is going through something. Like. So you understand this is maybe a though heavy and though real, it might be a momentary or circumstantial darkness versus like, oh, I am in a season. The nation is in a season.
[00:40:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: That feels heavy and dark and it's hard to see. This is where I actually do think lament, you know, going back to that really matters. Because lament, especially throughout scripture, is often collective, communal and on behalf of people experiencing injustice. Right. It is language for long term suffering or injustice, egregious wrongs, that kind of thing. Often in lament, the biblical lamenters are crying, literally crying out to God as a judge, hear my case. I'm pleading to you, be my advocate, step in and bring justice where there isn't any. And, and that I do think it matters as a church, especially for moments that are kind of a long term darkness, that we do it collectively, we do it communally and we do it on behalf of hurting people too. So let's say maybe you're in a season, that's fine. But your neighbor is suffering because of some injustice or something that's happening in the world. Part of what it means to be a Christian is to enter in with lament on behalf of those who are hurting. That's what the prophets did. Yeah, that's what Jeremiah did in lamentations. And so you know, I, you know, to, to kind of learn to, to build those lament muscles.
God, how long?
And then, but I'm still going to worship you. But you got to show up here. Like I think that that matters more than we might realize, especially in long term suffering. And then I, you know, and then I think the collective communal piece is that like we can borrow each other's faith. So in seasons of long tunnels of darkness, it's like I might not in a moment have hope or faith, but you do. And so I'm going to borrow yours. And then of course we know that changes. You're going through a heart, so you're going to borrow mine. And that's part of what it means to do this, this Christian thing together. You know, I mean, you know this Chris, and you're a pastor. Like we've made it, we've made our faith so individualized and privatized in the States. But to remember that like historically, ecumenically, this faith we have is a communal body. Right. And so we do, we need each other to get through the long term darkness together and find, find God in it.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: Yeah, we say that at our church too about borrowing each other's faith.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: That's why I was, oh, I love that.
[00:43:19] Speaker A: Really?
On Sunday.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: That's so beautiful. I mean, yeah, and that's, I mean that's just real. Like I, I, I've needed to borrow mentors, friends, pastors, faith, and they've needed to borrow mine. And I'm so thankful that God has given us that gift. Like God is Not surprised by that. And actually created the church as a body for that reason.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: Yeah. It seems to me that the difference maybe between like a dark season or a dark timeline is kind of like where our focus is like, I feel like in a dark season, that's. It's an inner. This is. I'm grieving. This is me, which makes sense. And there is place for that versus the timeline. I just. It sounded like you were saying, you know, we lament on behalf of others.
[00:44:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: So maybe that's like looking out and going, God, what do you want me to do here? Not for myself, but, like, for the people that you love. How can I reflect you in this world when I'm not affected myself? But I can at least be willing to recognize and admit that there is a dark season going on.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Kristin, you answered your own question better than I could have.
Yeah, I think you're probably right. One is more of an inward, like, this is my loss. Yeah. And the other is like, okay, what's happening in the world around me, God, that you're inviting me into? Yeah. It's good.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: People are listening and they feel lost in the dark right now. What is a practical thing that you can encourage them to do?
[00:44:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I love that question so much.
I. I would say, and I know I keep beating this drum, but I. I do think this matters.
I would say a couple things.
The first thing is, like, it's normal. So I would like to normalize the darkness for you. You are not going backwards spiritually. You are not immaturing. You are not, like, losing your mind.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: This is part of actually spiritual maturing, believe it or not.
And so with that, I would say, like, don't give up. Don't walk away. You know, find a healthy church or a healthy church body, a healthy community you can be a part of and, like, wrestle with them through this season. It's very tempting to hit that wall and walk away, but I just wouldn't because there is intimacy on the other side. Intimacy with Jesus. An explosion of your faith, meaning, like, there will be things, treasures you find in it.
Another, like, just very practical thing. And I would say this connects with lament. One of the things I started to do in 2015 when I was, like, losing my mind was I grabbed a journal and I wrote the word how on it, which is the lament question, how long, O Lord? You know, and lamentations in the Hebrew Bible is actually the word which means how? And so I literally wrote the Word how on a journal. And I just began to ask God every how question that came to my mind. How could you? How dare you? How long will this last? How are we going to get through this? How are you going to show up here? And of course, I don't mean that you can ask where and why and you know what I mean. What? Like. But I think that's a place to start. Put it in your phone notes, do it in your journal, voice, text, whatever kind of person you are, and begin to just ask God your questions. And God won't always, of course, meet. We know this. God won't always meet those questions with perfect little tidy answers. But in time, what we do find is that the act of asking is an act of worship. The act of asking is an act of drawing near. And God will honor that with. Sometimes with answers, sometimes just with presence, like his own presence, sometimes just with holding the question for you so you don't have to carry it on your own.
And that, I think, is one of the most practical handholds and a way to kind of, like, hold onto your faith when you feel like you might be lost in the darkness.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: That's so good. All right, well, on the flip side, my last question for you is because the podcast is called Becoming Church.
[00:47:21] Speaker B: Church. Yeah.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: What about the people who aren't currently in a season of darkness? How can they become the church to the people around them?
[00:47:28] Speaker B: Oh, I love that question. I love, love that question.
Okay, this is what I would say. If you're not in darkness, but you're walking with someone who is, the first thing is you.
If this is your inclination, you have to resist the urge to balance the scales of someone else's grief and darkness.
And what I mean is, it is not your job to make it better for them or to explain what's happening you. It is so important for the church to let people be where they are for as long as they need to be there. Now, I understand in that, that there are times to call out hope in people. There are times to call forth faith in people. Like, there are times to pray for. But I would just resist the urge to say, this happened because, xyz, this is happening to you because, like.
Or to. Yeah. Or to rush people through to a finish line of pain. I just avoid that as that's not your job. That's the Holy Spirit's job, you know?
And I think that's a way we can be the church. And I know it sounds so kind of simple, but just letting people be where they are for as long as they need to.
Welcoming them into the church, even with their questions and their darkness and their fear is. So it's powerful ministry. Yes.
And then I'm going to say something else too.
Sometimes in that need to get people healed quickly, you might also feel the need to be the person that's tending to or caring for all of their needs.
And you also don't have to carry that weight on your shoulders. Like, I think there's a ministry of presence and a ministry of absence where sometimes you step back and you send a text, you pray, you let the person know you're there. But you don't necessarily have to be the Savior. And I'm not saying that to everybody, but there are specific personalities, I think, that can try to step into somebody's grief and vulnerability and think they have to face fix it. And that's also not your job. So. So it's sort of this delicate balance of letting the person in grief or darkness determine, like, dictate what they need and like drawing in, drawing out. Drawing in, drawing out. But yeah, that's the first thing I would say is don't balance the scales of somebody else's grief. You don't need to do that.
[00:50:04] Speaker A: That is so good. And you were like, this is simple. I don't think it is. I mean, it is.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: Maybe not. Yeah. But I don't think it's.
[00:50:10] Speaker A: I don't think. I think it's simple, but I don't think it's common. Maybe that's like the word is. I think we over complicate things. And I always am so confused about churches that kind of require people to clean up before they come. Like, how can you have a focus on discipleship.
[00:50:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:29] Speaker A: When you don't even know where people really are. Like, what are you growing them in if you don't even know where they're starting?
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so, like, that's even just logical. Like, Right. Like it makes sense. Yeah. If you're. If it's not a safe space for people to be like, here's where I actually am.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:50] Speaker B: Then. Yeah. How can you move people towards Jesus together? And I mean, and I think too, like, this is what we've been talking about. Like, I've been in ministry, I've been a Christian for 30 plus years, and these are the things I grapple with. So don't even assume that someone who's like a more quote, mature Christian isn't wrestling. You know, like, we're all, we're all grappling through this stuff together. But to be honest about where we are. So leaders, you know, and ministers and our, our colleagues and friends in church can help guide from a real place. I love that, Krista. Yeah.
[00:51:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and even as leaders, it kind of takes us off the pedestal that. Yeah, a lot of us, I really do believe do not want to be on.
[00:51:30] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: And it reminds, it removes the like top down model so that we can all be the church.
[00:51:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: All together.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: Which again, like the things are, this is what people long for, I think in the church. Like this is like the, this is the, the safe, healing place that people long for church to be. So, so good. Yeah.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: Well, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for having this kind of church with you and your husband in West Chicago. I'm gonna link up your church so anybody listening near you and come and check you guys out. I'll also link up the book and all of the things.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me, Chris. It's so good talking to you.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: I know I'm biased, but chats between female pastors are truly some of the most honest, inviting conversations I have ever heard. If you don't hear it in other places, let me make it really clear. You have permission to show up exactly as you are and exactly how you feel with God. And there is probably a church near you that reflects that genuine welcome. If you're struggling to find a body of Christ like that locally, you're always welcome to join our online community at MosaicChurch TV where we live stream our services every Sunday with a full on chat room and people who are excited to engage with you. Your questions, yourself, your doubts, your wrestlings, they are all welcome here. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.
