Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Amy Seifert. Amy is a pastor at Soma City Church in Toledo, Ohio, and she is also in seminary. She is in that special cohort with some past guests of the show, people that you might remember, like Jess Connelly, Priselles Dominguez, and Jamie Nadeau. So you already know that this is going to be a fun conversation. Let's get into it with Amy.
All right, Amy, welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Now that we have gotten through our technical difficulties, we pushed the record button, and it didn't do anything, so we both just kind of stared blankly at each other.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: It's perfect.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad that you're here.
It's beginning to be spring. I know. I'm a Midwest girl.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Yes. Yes.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: I'm in the south now, but you're in Ohio.
And so how do you feel about the winter melting away and the spring coming?
[00:01:20] Speaker B: It. We say in our house that Aslan is on the move. Like, he's coming, spring is coming. Winter's melting. It's so good. I think everything shifts in our house when the sun stays lighter. Daylight savings time. Yes. I'm. I'm thawing out, like, in my soul, in our emotions. Yeah. I'm excited.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. I know. I thought I was like, I. Because I grew up in Michigan, where not only is it, like, Midwest, but it's kind of gray. Like, the summer's beautiful, but the summer lasts for, I don't know, like, six weeks. And so now that I'm in North Carolina, like, oh, thank you, Jesus, for all of the sun. I understand the. The awakening.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of jealous. Sounds amazing.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Come visit. You just come on down.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Well, you are a pastor in Ohio, and also you're a seminarian. So I want to know, what is your goal when you graduate seminary?
[00:02:15] Speaker B: I would like to sleep.
Excellent. When I'm done.
No, I. Well, that. That is true, but, man. So as a pastor. Yeah, as a pastor, I'm. I teach on our teaching team. And as soon as. As soon as the idea of seminary became available to me, because I teach, I wanted to add the education. So I just want to take what I'm learning and continue to put it into my ministry. So. Yeah. Just hoping that it just infuses in what I have. So truly, the plan is to celebrate that I'm done and then hopefully continue to take everything I have and use it.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that I got ordained after I'd already been in ministry for a few years, like, leading our campus. And I love actually to see it play out this way because a lot of people, my lead pastor's wife and I actually got ordained together. And the question that we got the most was like, okay, what are you going to do now? We were like, literally, what we did yesterday.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: The thing. Yeah, we're doing the thing. Yeah.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: But so I feel like it's a confirmation of what you're already doing. The gifts you're already using, the way God's already working in you.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
Adding fuel to the fire, right? Yes.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Well, you are also a Bible teacher, not just in your church, but on Instagram, which is where I actually first found you. What is your favorite book of the Bible or passage to teach?
[00:03:48] Speaker B: I mean, when I. I don't even know how to choose. Kristen. It's so hard. How about right now? I know, right now. That's good.
I. Well, I just wrote a book about women in the Bible, so my. My favorite passage right now is Luke 8 to talk about, because there's this little line at the beginning of. Of Luke 8 that says, you know, there were all these people traveling with Jesus and. And many women were with him too. And I'm like, wait, how many? 1, 3, 10, 20? And just seeing myself in that and what that looked like, and. And then even how rich that passage just unfolds. There's the bleeding woman. There's Jarius's daughter. There's so many things. So that passage has been really fun to teach.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: That's awesome. I know. I have. This is when I'm like, hey, dear Bible writers, we have so many details on other things. And then just like. And also there were women there.
Not only how many, but like, who. Who were they?
[00:04:47] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Which. There's three named, but many other. Right. Who were they? Exactly. What are their stories? And I'm like, oh, that's us, though. We're in there. We're in there. And if they're in there, we're in there, you know, so I'm with you, though. I want the details. We'll get them.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: The generic. The. The generic nature of it is more inclusive, I guess, and I don't think I ever thought it that way.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, let's. Let's rest in that. That's good. I do love that. Okay.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Well, I have to admit, I told you that I found you on Instagram, and the first time you came across my feed, you always have the same Bible. Yeah, I don't know if you have it right there in front of you.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: I don't. I wish I did.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: You guys have the same Bible. Let me paint a picture for the people. So it is, like, I don't know, you could hold it in one hand. Like, it's smaller, and at least on video, it's like a tan color. And then there are these, like, random darker brown spots.
Amy, I don't know if you remember this. I swear this is real. You came across my feed teaching, and I totally missed the first 10 seconds because I was like, is she holding a Crunchwrap supreme from Taco Bell?
[00:05:47] Speaker B: Wait, did you say that?
Oh, my gosh.
[00:05:53] Speaker A: This is my favorite because I laughed.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Out loud when I saw your comment. Like, I thought this was a burrito. I was like, I wish it was a burrito. Like, that is every time.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Every time. Now that I know it's your Bible still, every time, I'm like, come on, Amy, my Taco Bell Bible teacher. Let's go.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Like, every time me in all the ways. Like, it's.
That's my favorite because it is. It's tattered, It's. It's brownish, like, tan foods. It could totally be a Bible. Or a burrito. Like, take your pick. I don't care. That is so funny. Yep.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: It makes me so happy every time. And then I'm also like, should I go to Taco Bell? I feel like this is a sign from the book that I should listen to scripture and go to Taco Bell.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: I love that it's you. It's my favorite thing right now.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: Maybe I can go back and, like, find that comment.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: Oh, I will. It's so good.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. Okay, well, I also have some insider information on you.
I heard that you are also an actress who recently debuted as Jonah. And so I would like you to tell us about this story.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Oh, I don't.
So seminary. Seminary. It's a riot. Like, I can't believe some of the. The assignments. So one of our assignments was to.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: We were looking at the Book of.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Jonah as a potential comedy, which I had never. Yes. And just having some imaginative reading. Not adding to the text, but looking at it and seeing. Okay, what is. What is happening here? In a literary style. So our assignment was to dress as Jonah with any. They. He. Our professor encouraged costumes and to, quote, have fun with it. So I was like, all right, game on. So, yeah, I definitely cut out a mustache from some cardboard that I had and put on sunglasses, and all of a sudden, I found myself recording to the rest of my sisters, my cohort.
I had this, like, New Jersey accent coming from who knows where, and I was giving God a hard time. I just. Was really just giving it to him. Yeah. So we were outrageous. And then we had to dress as God and respond to three other Jonas of our other seminary sisters. It was ridiculous. But. But it. Honestly, I haven't thought about Jonah and all the. The. The ins and outs and the way that he was and his posture and how God was. Because of this assignment. In a way, you know, it was very creative.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: So that's so fun. Yeah, I. I have a lot of friends in your cohort, and so I get these little glimpses, and then I start to put it together, and I'm like, oh, that's why, you know, Jess is wearing a blanket, and Amy's got on, like, a weird mustache. And I'm, like, piecing these things together as they come across.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: My.
So funny. We. Yeah, we are ridiculous. We took it to the nth degree. It was great.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: I love it. I did reach out to Jamie Nadeau, and I was like, hey, what do I need to surprise Amy with? And she was. She was like, ask her if she always specializes in a Brooklyn accent when she's acting.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: I don't know why. And then we do have a friend in the Bronx. I was like, pre am. I like, I'm sorry if I'm offending you, but this is terrible.
Yeah.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: She's been on the show, too.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, I love her. It's so fun. Yes. Our cohort is a blast. We really. Yeah. It's so fun to be running in the same lane, but also, we're so. We're. We're being humbled and schooled together in seminary. We thought we knew things. We do not. We know nothing.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: I love that. I love it, though, because you guys are going to come out, like, not just with, like, the head knowledge, but.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: I don't know. Just looking more like Jesus. I just. I'm so excited to just watch all of you and your transformations from being incredible women to, like, just seeing God shine in and through y'all even more. So hopefully.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Hopefully, we're gonna look more like Jesus.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: You will. You will. Mustache and all.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: I mean, exactly. Growing hair. It's crazy.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Well, Jamie is a hoot. She's hilarious. She's also been on the show, and so you guys now Have a podcast together. Tell us about seminary sisters.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: Oh, man. You know what? It's so fun because Jamie and I instantly connected. There was just a lot of, like, you too? Me too. When we first started.
And so then we ended up.
We were voicemailing each other, and we still do several times a week about things we're learning or just family things and mothers and ministry and authors and all the things. So we. We were like, we're literally podcasting to one another about what. What is happening. We should record this. People were asking. And so we thought, let's just give it a go. And it has been for two reasons. I think it's. It's been so fun. One, I don't want to forget these aha. Moments we're having in seminary, like, live in class. So to talk, like, get together afterward and talk about it is so fun. But two, there are so. And this was me for years. I did not think, and Jamie didn't either, that seminary was an option. It was. It was offered to different men in my circles, like, hey, you should think about this. But no one ever said that to me, and I just didn't think it was an option. So we want to take what we're learning. Learning and. And be able to give it to people, especially women who are thirsty and hungry and maybe can't get there yet and just. Yeah. Yeah. Serve people in that way.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: So the heart of the podcast really is, like, taking what you're learning and reteaching it. So if people wanted to learn more about the Bible, scripture, how God works, like, all of that.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yes, yes. Old Testament, Just all the things that we're. Like what. That are now coming together to us. All of it. Yep. Awesome.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Okay. I will put a link in the show notes so people can go over and thank you.
Well, you. Your book that you recently wrote called you'd Name is Daughter, I was not surprised to hear about your fantastic acting, because I read through this book and the way that you used your. What I like to call, like, holy imagination to retell the stories of the women in this book absolutely drew me in. Like, Amy, truly, when I get a book for a podcast interview, I skim it. I'm like, I need to get the gist. Yeah, Yours. I was like. I mean, just glued in, like, just reading because I was laughing. I was, like, picturing the story. It was. I mean, you. You hooked me, like, immediately.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: That's so great. Thank you.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: So I want to know, like, did you grow up hearing about women in the Bible or what made you want to start investigating these stories?
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I didn't. I.
I grew up. Yeah, I grew up with a Catholic background, so I heard some stories, but I wasn't opening the Bible for myself. And so I became a believer at 16, and that was the first time that I opened. It was like, what's happening in here? But my. The. The church that I got involved with, the youth group, the youth leader, the youth pastor was. He brought. He brought the stories about Jesus alive. And I remember him telling a story of the woman at the well. And I was so drawn in and thinking.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: I.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: Like, I was captivated by the story, and that just kind of hooked me.
And I was an English major. I've loved literature forever. And so the Bible quickly became my favorite piece of literature to look at and pull out the gems in the story. So it's so fun. I'm. I'm honored that you loved how I did that, because that's. That was my first crack at, you know, some historical fiction and just really kind of pulling out from. From what was happening, maybe bringing more. More of the women to life, because I think we easily pass over some of these details that could really help us see the whole story. So, yeah, it's been. It's been a journey bringing women out, but I've been fascinated by the women. As a woman, I. To see ourselves in scripture. I remember my pastor saying to me, you seem to. You always pick out the women in the story. And I was like, yeah, that's who I am. Like, we look for ourselves in these ways. So it was fun to think. I'm gonna do a huge, broad sweep of the unsung women and see what they have to tell us about our worth as we look at their story.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Well, I love that. Even if people wouldn't read the story the same way that you do, I think it can teach them, like, hey, you're allowed to do this. Like, you're allowed to ask questions when you read, and you're allowed to kind of fill in the gaps.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: Not in a way that obviously changes, you know, what Jesus was trying to say or what the story is, but that just kind of helps you to better understand it or relate to it. Why do you think that's a hard thing for people to do, man?
[00:14:28] Speaker B: Well, I was just thinking, I think this is why the series, the Chosen, has gone so well. I know I'm obsessed.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: I love obsessed.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: I think we're obsessed because someone has put life and color and laughter, Jesus smiling, like, just brought to life the humanity of Jesus. And so I think we're drawn to this. And so I think it's actually been really fun in my Old Testament class right now. Old Testament, 5:12, because he is talking about God has given us imagination. And there's some details in the story that are there that we might just zip by to be like, that was weird. And he's like, stop at the weird and think, why is it there? And, and what's happening? And so I. Which was such confirmation because I'd already written my, my book and I had done that, I had stopped at the weird. I thought, what is this detail showing us? What. How can we swivel the camera because of this detail and think, huh, what's God trying to say here? Not as a way to add to the text in no way to do that, but to take the historical context, to take the point of view and, and to think, all right, what's going on with this nameless woman? And being emotionally, financially penniless and reaching out in this way and just kind of thinking through all the details and seeing what God has to tell us. I think people are really drawn to that.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: I think that people are, are taught to like, just read your Bible and check it off the checklist. You know, flip to the back.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Tick off the box. And then you never have to go to, you know, lamentations ever again, whatever.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: It is, or living like now.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: So if people wanted to start doing this, Amy, if they wanted to be able to like, slow down and stop at the weird and ask questions, what's just a really practical way that you could tell them of, like, how to start reading the Bible differently so they could do that?
[00:16:23] Speaker B: I would say go slow. Yeah, like take, take a, like a paragraph at a time. Slow down and just start to notice what's happening around the humans in this story. What's God doing in the story? Put your. Try to slide on the sandals of the men and women and imagine yourself there.
Smell it, look around, what do you see? What do you hear? And I think that could really help us. But we are so fast paced. We scroll, scroll, scroll. We get half of a thing and we keep going. But what would it look like to slow down and stick yourself in the story? I think we'd have a lot of fun. I think there would be some healing and some belonging we would find. Yeah, I'd say go slow.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I think oftentimes when people put themselves in the story, I am guilty of this too. We either become like the hero or the villain or the one that Jesus is talking to. We're like, no, we all have main character energy, right?
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: It's like, what if we put ourselves in the story but like in the crowd, like in the back. So we're there, we're experiencing it, but it's not about us.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Yes. Or I tend to put myself, like in Jesus's shoes. Like that's how I ought to be versus the recipient of whatever is happening, just as you said.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: A character, the crowd, all of it. Like, there's a lot of positions we can be in to watch something unfold, but we need the time to be able to do that.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it.
Amy is really, really great at using her holy imagination to help people better understand scripture. Like, she mentioned a show that you may have heard of called the Chosen. Does that really well too. I am never going to stop talking about my interview with Elizabeth Tabish, who plays Mary Magdalene as a way of convincing you all to watch the Chosen and to be introduced to the best depiction of Jesus that there ever has been, in my opinion. But I do also want to introduce you to another podcast that does holy imagination really, really well. It's called Faith Adjacent. Two of the hosts, Aaron Moon and Evan Dodson, have both been on Becoming Church in the past, but it was on their show that was the first place I was really introduced to using holy imagination in Bible stories.
I think their classic episodes have been moved behind a paywall, but if you're interested in checking them out, here is a secret tip for you. They offer a free seven day trial so you can get in there and listen. Truly, these conversations have helped me to better understand those weird Old Testament stories especially. So if you love the idea of putting yourself in the story to get more context, you'll love the classic episodes of Faith Adjacent.
Well, in these, in the story, so your name is daughter is what the unsung women of the Bible teach us about our worth. As you have been going through or doing different interviews or teaching from the book, have you found that there's somebody's story who is overlooked the most? That most people are like, oh, I didn't even know that she existed.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yes, there's several, I'm sure.
You know, the most surprising to me was a woman named Halda in second in second kings. She's also in second chronicles too, but 22. I had never heard of the woman. Hulda. Okay, she's just kind of a. You could easily pass over her. However, it is this beautiful tag team moment where King Josiah, who is known to be One of the best kings. There's not a lot of good kings, but he's a really good one. And when he is cleaning out the temple, like, taking everything out, literally knocking down idols, and, like, we need to return to who we are. Someone discovers the law, probably Deuteronomy, and takes it to Josiah, and they're like, hi, we were cleaning out the closet of the temple, and we found this. And do you want to read it? So they read the whole thing in front of Josiah, and he weeps. He tears his clothes, and. And he says, I need. I need help. I need someone to help me with this. And so he ends up. The story is crazy when you start to look at it. He sends five of his men from the king's palace to Halda's door, knocks on it, she opens it. And I just can't imagine, even right now, if in the middle of this podcast, five men knock on my door and want to speak to me, like, from the president. They're like, the president has sent these five men, and they're wondering what you think about this thing we found in the White House. You know, like, it's just. It's crazy. In the closet. Yeah.
And she. Her words are like, yes, this is like, she authenticates. This is the law.
You have not kept it. But, you know, and she gives a word up for Israel, and she gives a word for Josiah, and they take that word back to the king. And because of that, so many things, it is a trajectory change, and there's repentance or confession, but it is really this tag team where he consults Halda. And there were other prophets available at the time. Like, Jeremiah is a contemporary, but he goes to Halda. And I just was struck by. So I'm like, why aren't we talking about Hulda and her boldness to speak some really hard things. Like, I wonder if she was like, I don't want to give this message right now, but here it is.
I just was very fascinated. And even has she. Her boldness has given me. It's given me boldness in. Truly, in meetings where I'm sitting there and my heart is beating, I'm thinking, I need to say this. I don't want to, but I'm going to follow in the footsteps of Halda, who's gone before me, and she's taught me something about my worth. And so I'm going to say this hard thing right now. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with Halda.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Well, and she's qualified, too. Like, Even the fact that you said, Jarrett, like, Jeremiah is around.
So, again, if we slow down and stop and go, well, why didn't the White House guys go to Jeremiah?
Why did they go to her? It's not. You know, it wasn't like a DEI initiative that we just have to, like, throw somebody in here that's a female.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah. She's.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: But there was a reason. She was qualified. She was the one. She. So. So then that just makes me think, like, I just want to know more about her. Yes. Right.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Why? Why? How did God gift her? I want to know more about her background. Like, what has she gone through that God was like, you are ready for this moment.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Yes. You know what's really fun, a fun fact about this is that also her. It names her husband. It says, hold it. And then I forget the name of her hus. But he. It says. It says what he does. He. He's the keeper of the king's wardrobe. So I think it's interesting, like. Like, our modern roles would be like, shouldn't. Wouldn't the woman keep the wardrobe? Like, what's happening? You know, Like. But this was, like, armor and all the things for going off to war. However, when Josiah heard the law, he tore his clothes. And so I wonder how the. What. What are the. All the relationships going on that are happening there, what community is going. It just. It's fascinating. I want to know more about her, too. I can't wait to find her in heaven and be like, tell me about living around King Josiah and what that looked like. And you're in that moment, you know?
[00:23:36] Speaker A: Yes. And how awesome was your closet? Because your husband was the keeper of the fashion trends at the time.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Right. The latest Josiah. What was he wearing? Like, what's going on? Yep.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Well, I also love that in your book, you have the chapters broken down not by name, but by label. Save that a chapter for, like, the obscure, the hero, the condemned, the grandmas.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Was there a certain part that resonated with you the most as you went through and wrote these?
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Oh, man, there was. There. I saw myself in so many of them. You did just list the grandmas that I feel really passionate as a pastor and seeing the need for multi generational mentorship, love, discipleship, people pouring into how much the older generation needs the younger and vice versa, like we need one another. I wanted to highlight the grandmas in scripture, the Euodia and Lois who poured into Timothy, and because of their faith, like Paul said, because of their faith. I've seen it now they've poured into you and your faith is going to be fanned into flame. I thought, man, we need to shout out and not marginalize the older generation because of whatever our culture has told us about youth and why we're prizing. Youth, no wisdom. And the faith that has gone before us and how much I want all the spiritual grandmas in my life to say, yeah, I still hold onto my faith in Jesus after all this time, after all these valleys, after all this darkness, I testify to the faithfulness of God. We need the grandmas. So, yeah, that was. That's just one of them that I was like, let's go, let's talk about them.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Was there any part that you wanted to write that got cut? Any section that you're like, I want to write about this person. But for whatever reason, publishers face, they were like, she doesn't fit.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: No, when I submitted to. Yeah, when I submitted, they were like, let's go, let's do it.
There were a lot of women I actually chose not to write about, Like, Esther's not in there, just because I wanted to pull out as many maybe unsung or unseen or unnamed women.
You know, we've got Shipra and Pua in the beginning. With who? With Moses who are saving babies, who are stepping in for justice. We have Jochebed, Moses, Mom. I wanted to look at different women you don't see a lot of. But, yeah, a lot of the key characters I leave out because there's been a lot written about them. So I'm like, let's look at some of these other women.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Yeah. So the whole idea of the book is that by learning about these women and learning their stories, it can help us to see our worth different. So what is that connection?
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Yes, Well, I think there's a lot of things. I think, one, we can see that we belong in the story of God.
We just talked about this in at church. But the idea of belonging, like, do I belong? I think that this is a huge question mark for women inside and outside of the church. And so when you see women everywhere doing everything, as Scott McKnight likes to say, it is so encouraging. And I think that helps us see, okay, I have a place in God's story. He's doing something through me, in me. I get to partner with him. And I think that helps us. In moments where we look around, we start to see we're insecure, we're not sure, we're questioning, we're doubtful. I can recall a story that I've read. Stories are so Powerful. And that can help me say, okay, yeah, no, I belong here. Like, Jesus specifically had this moment with this woman and then sent her to go do a thing.
I can. I can take my experiences and moments with Jesus and be sent to do something. So, yeah, I think it. It solidifies our belonging. It can bring healing, it can up our confidence to try something, to do something, to be brave, to be bold.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Do you think it also helps women, like, in their identity and their self value?
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: To learn their stories.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Huge. I think it's fun to. To just pile women on top of women on top of women and what they're doing because then you. It just stacks up of. It's not just a few stories, it's many. So, yeah, it confirms in us an identity. And I start out with the woman at the. The bleeding woman in. In Luke 8, which I find fascinating. Like, that's what we call her. Like, that's her name to us, the bleeding woman. Like, how would you like to be known by your issues?
Like, she's the annoying one. Like, like she's called the bl. She's known by her condition. But I think it's fascinating. And so, so often, I mean, if we just start there, so many of us identify with. With our issue, with our shame, with our past, with our problems. You know, I have adhd and sometimes I want to just be like, oh, that's my adhd. I'm like, no, that's part of me, but that's not all of me. And. And I think it's powerful that not only does she find physical healing, he has a word for her. She's the only woman that he turns around and says daughter.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: And so now instead of being known by her condition, she's known by her position as the daughter of the Most High King. I think that is powerful. That is an identity marker. That is being a son or a daughter of the Most High King is the one. It is the one name that. That cannot be taken from us. Our. Our job titles can come and go. Our positions, our marital status, single, married, widow, divorced. That comes and goes where we live, comes and goes.
Our name as daughter. No one can take that from us. And that's an identity that I want to rest in. My father is for me in every place that I am.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
How can we, Amy, take this name, like, not just for ourselves, but try to remember to apply it to other people? So, like, if we're in conversations, if we're, you know, on social, on Facebook, let's just say where maybe it's harder to, you know, just be with the people.
What can we do to remember that not only, like, can that not be taken from us, but also it cannot be taken from other people and that everybody else is a son and daughter of God?
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Yes. I, I think that's actually huge. And key. We, we must, we must see that every person is created and made in the image of God. No matter what they believe they are, they have dignity, value, and worth, and that cannot be taken from them. And so we need to treat them as sons and daughters. We need to treat them the same way we would want to be treated. And I. Which I love. I love that Jesus said the whole law is fulfilled, like all of it in loving neighbor. Loving neighbor, like you, like you love yourself. It's just huge. And we need. Our world is thirsty to see our interactions as full of compassionate love and kindness. That is hard. It is hard when you disagree. It's hard when you're on the other side of the aisle. But it's so necessary to break down those barriers because you see the value, dignity, worth of your fellow human being right on the other side of that screen. Yeah.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: And I think it requires us to not say a lot of things. I think it requires, like, biting our tongues or making our hands into fists instead of, like, typing them out, you know?
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Because I think a lot of Christians, again, I will include myself in all of the things that I'm saying. Like, we know these things. I know that the person who drives me crazy the absolute most is also a daughter of God whose title and name cannot be removed. But sometimes I just. It's really hard. It's really hard to be like, Right. But can you please look more like Jesus? Then I will honor this name of you. But that's. That's not the way it works.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: I know, I know. It's hard to remember, like, we have, like the. We have been given compassion from God. And so to operate from that place is. Yeah. Is a humbling posture to say, I have needed compassion from God, his mercy, his grace. I've needed that. So I must give that back. Instead of this place of.
Yeah. Self righteousness. It's gonna say, yeah, yeah, okay.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: So as we're learning to live into our stories fully, I also think that for women, women tend to play small or use like a false humility. Right. Where we just like, minimize and play things down. Maybe not even because we believe it, but because we think we're supposed to say that kind of thing.
How do we break out of those. Like, how do we flip those scripts and break out of those narratives?
[00:32:59] Speaker B: Oh, man. I actually, one of my seminary sisters just talked about this online. Jess Connolly, she was talking about that.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: She's so great. And that idea that you can be like, oh, like, there's a. We want to be quiet and shrink back. And maybe because we feel like we should or will be too much, much. I, I. That has been a fear I have. And I've even been told that, like, you're a lot.
And for so many. So many women who have leadership qualities. Yeah. And I think it's from the enemy to want to keep us quiet and small and to hide our voice instead of use our voice. And so I think one of. One of the things is to step into that and to say, no, this is a gift I've been given.
I want to use it to the most excellent ability and to not be ashamed of that. I don't want to be ashamed of a gift my father handed me. Like, that's a gift from my father, and I'll be proud of that. And I want to hone it and use it for his kingdom. But, man, there's some kind of false humility that we feel like we have to carry. And I'm working on this. I'm working on it to own. Own my gifts, use them not in a prideful way, but in a way that makes me proud of who I am and how God has made me.
Yeah. So I think it's such a process to sort of unlearn what our culture has told us, what the Christian culture has told us, and to step into confidently and in. Because our confidence is God is in God and who he has made us to be and what he has for us to do. Like, this is not. This is not prideful.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think I've ever made this connection until right now, talking to you in, like, this context of your book and the whole thing.
But I almost wonder if the enemy's whole point of, like, when people tell us that we're too much or whatever is really just to infuse doubt.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: Because I think that's what a lot of that language is, right. Of, like, when we play small. I do think sometimes it's intentional for different reasons, but I wonder if sometimes it is just to make us doubt. Like, oh, well, then maybe God did not give me this gift. Or maybe God did not actually call me to do this thing. And it's not so much a place of, like, I don't know. But just to get in our own minds, you know, like a mind game.
[00:35:14] Speaker B: Yes. And I think doubt, Doubt is huge because then we shrink back and we don't use. Use the gifts we've been given and we hide. And now the kingdom of God is missing out on our gifts. And I want all the gifts being used to build up and benefit the body. Ephesians, forces. We need them all. And so let's call that out and say, no, that's good. Come on, like. And infuse that confidence in God and what he's doing. Yeah, it's huge.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: So for the people that are listening, that are like, yes, Amy, let's go. I'm gonna. I want to write my story. I want to live my story out loud. I want to do all the things and be part of the women, you know, that were also there, but they feel like they're hitting roadblocks. Maybe they don't have opportunities. Maybe they've been praying for God to, like, open doors for them to do a thing, and they just feel like they can't.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: What encouragement do you have for them right now?
[00:36:10] Speaker B: I would. A couple of things.
I would say, is there something in your heart and mind that you want to try that you haven't yet?
What is that?
So maybe you've thought, I want to write or I want to try this thing on social media, or maybe I want to put together this retreat or whatever is happening or serve in this way. Is there. Is there a way that you actually haven't tried yet to be able to do that? Like, I wonder if it's your own self doubt that's holding you back. But then there could be the very real barriers where you have tried and you've been, you know, the door has been shut on you. I would say ask God for another way to do this. Is there another way? Is there another avenue? Is there another street to walk down and try this? Because maybe the door has been shut in this way. I bet there's another door. And our God is generous and has ideas. He's creative. I would say just ask. And as you're talking with your father about this, first of all, that's really lovely because that's your relationship and he wants you to just be close to him and talk about these things. But secondly, ask and then wait and listen and see what he has to say and what that looks like. I think. I think we underestimate asking and listening to our generous, creative God.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I do think we hyper focus too. On, like, this is the one thing I want to do. So this is the one way I expect it to happen. And I always try to remember, like when the, when the sea split open, I'm pretty sure that that's not the one way they were looking for to escape, that they were not. Like, you just have to get to the ocean.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Because God's gonna make it super weird and like, just make it open and there's gonna be, you know, a pathway down the middle. Like, I really doubt it.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So that, that's just, I love that example. They didn't, they probably did not have the imagination for that, but God did.
So absolutely. What new pathway is God going to create out of nothing? Because that's what he does. He's so good at bringing life out of nothing. Like literally nothing. I love that it was reading in Romans. It was like, Abraham was as good as dead. And God, that's literally like, he takes these spots that you run into. You're like, this looks like a dead end. And God's like, nope, I got a thing. So ask him, see what he's got.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And the, I love the idea too of like, have you actually tried it? I know for me that was an obedience thing where for a long time I was like, I want to write a book. I want to write a book. I want to write a book. And I think I was actually talking to Joe Saxon one day about it and she was like, but where are you writing right now? And I was like, skirt Joe. Like I would here and there in random. But she's like, if you're waiting for the big thing.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Then like, are you being obedient right now? Are you being faithful? Like, if you think you have a gift and God wants to work through you using that, then are you using that or are you holding on to it?
[00:39:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: And holding back, waiting for the big, like dream and the big thing.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: Yes. Which was me for years with a book. Like, I, I took my ideas to different conferences and I got nose, nose, nose, nose. I didn't have a book. I took the idea about a book and then I felt like, well, I'm gonna just write the book. And I self published it. And then I took the book around and that was like the best resume ever. Like you hand a publisher a self published book that you have and they're like, oh, she gets it done. She's determined. And then from there I got picked up by Tyndale. Like, it just was like, awesome. But I had to actually just do this, like literally write a book. You don't need a publisher to write a book, which is amazing right now, and see what God's doing. But, yeah, I think we think we're waiting for this other thing. Like, just start. Start doing the thing and see what happens.
[00:40:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. If you have the skill, if you. If God has handed you the gift, do it. Open it. Yep.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: And you. Yeah.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Well, this is a book that is geared toward women, but we have not just women listening to the show. So why should men listen to stories like these? Like, why is this not just like Girly Pop, like, Bible Story Hour?
[00:40:30] Speaker B: I love this question because I've gotten so many people saying, I want my pastor, husband, whatever, all these men to read it. And because it's important. And here's. Here's why for me, I would love for men to be reading this too. I think it reminds us of the very call back in Genesis 1 and 2. And this is what I mean. I think that often we forget that before the curse and everything unraveled and there was control and power between men and women. Husband, all the things before that, when God creates the human humanity, he creates male and female in his image equally, and he blesses them equally, and he co commissions them equally to go side by side together and push back evil with Eden. They're called to be Eden ambassadors and to go forward together before the curse enters. And we were blessed. And so I think we need these stories of women doing all these things to remind both men and women, we were called to do this side by side, in partnership, in mutuality, together in a way that's really powerful. So this helps us remember our co call, our co commission and to see all the ways. And that's why I love the. I love Huldah and Josiah. There's this sweet partnership going on. I love Paul and all the women he names at the end of Romans A third of who he thanks is women for the partnership they had in the gospel. I think it's a powerful testimony to our original design.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: I mean, that even just sets us up for the. The idea of, like, hey, nobody should be on a pedestal, like, male, female, anybody. Like, if the whole point is doing this together in partnership, then that's everybody.
[00:42:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: Whether you're in a group of women or a group of men or whatever. Like.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Yes. Which is. And I hope that message gets through throughout my book, because I don't want this to feel like women power, empowerment of women. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, listen, we're called side by side and the brotherhood and sisterhood. Like God is our father, we have our common father. Like Jesus said, PR our father, which makes us a family. We need brothers and sisters together who've got each other's back. Like, I need my brothers, my brothers need me. And it's such a powerful testimony to the world to see a side by side taking charge with light and compassion and beauty. Yeah. Just together. I think it's powerful.
[00:43:03] Speaker A: Well, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. Amy, last question for you. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm gonna just keep trailing with what I said.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: We're kind of already going there.
[00:43:16] Speaker B: It's great, though, I think, truly being able to.
To step back into the call to be family together as brothers and sisters. I don't want to miss the beauty of being the family of God. Like, I love the men that I work with in ministry. I love the teaching team I. I'm on. There's two men, two women, and they truly are my brothers. And to really see one another in that way that we are the family of God. We are aunts and uncles, we are cousins, we are grandmas and grandpas. That spiritual family is a richness. It's a rich imagery and picture. We need to help us continue to push back evil with. With Eden. And so I would say start using that language of brothers and sisters because it's powerful as the family of God under our. Our good heavenly Father. Yeah.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: Oh, that's a great answer. It's a great answer. And even just as I'm thinking about my own daughters and they are, you know, sisters to each other this morning, it's like, one second they love each other, and the next second they're screaming at each other.
But as I have to remind myself, like, they genuinely love each other, and. And really, even in the family of God, like, if that's something that we can remember of, hey, we might be screaming at people. Yes. Now.
[00:44:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: But love has to be there underneath first, you know, and as long as it is, as long as that's still there, like, forgive, apologize, all the things, but yes.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: Because family's messy, just like you're saying family's messy. We fight with each other, but, man, that love is fierce. Yeah. Like, we defend each other as well. And to step into that family identity, I think is huge. Yeah.
[00:44:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Amy, thank you for being here. I will link up your book and the podcast and all of the things. Is there anything else that you wanted to say?
[00:45:03] Speaker B: No, I'm just grateful. What a fun conversation. I just. Yeah. I've loved our time. Thank you.
[00:45:08] Speaker A: Yay.
Okay, sisters and brothers, we can do this. We can do this, right? And speaking of loving each other, well, one way that you can do that is by sharing. Sharing the show with them. Invite them into our becoming church family by texting a link or posting about an episode on your social media. Or, you know, just turn it on and make them listen on your way to Easter lunch. Whatever. Whatever works for you. Thanks for listening. And until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around.
