Aundi Kolber: Take What You Need

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mauclar Young, and my guest today is Andi Kolber. Andi is a trauma therapist who's here to teach us how to find healing within ourselves and how it is actually by God's design that we find that healing. Let's jump right into my conversation with Andy. Andie, welcome to Becoming Church podcast. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Thank you so much. It's good to be with you. [00:00:45] Speaker B: We're really excited to have you. I cannot believe that it's already February. We are, like, more than a month into 2025. And so I think that we're finding our listeners probably in a variety of places right now. You know, I think some people are probably frustrated about their New Year's goals and resolutions. Some of them, maybe it's me. Still haven't picked one for 2025. Is there a particular way that you like to start a new year? [00:01:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thanks for saying that. I think that's so real and valid and that, you know, this time of year hits people in so many different ways. Yeah, for me, I really think of the new year. There's a lot that I really value about it. I. I tend to find a sense of, like, openness or clarity after the holidays, because I love the holidays, but particular in my work as a trauma therapist. Many people have a lot that comes up over the holidays kind of, you know, it's sort of like the smorgasbord of, like, family pain and dynamics and attachment pain. And so it can be a lot. And that's, you know, that's part of my story. And so even though there's. I've experienced a lot of healing. I. I tend to feel like a little bit of an exhale when. When I get to January. But, yeah, for me, one of the practices that is important to me, and I try to keep a really open hand with this because I think sometimes I think any good practice, when it gets too rigid, can become maybe not helpful anymore, you know, and so for me, something I do like to do, this is actually my 11th year, is pick a word for the year. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:26] Speaker A: And so, you know, I think for me, I kind of think of it as sort of a discernment process, like both with sort of the spirit of God, but also really participating my own intuition, kind of participating with God in this process of, you know, what am. What am I sensing? What do I. Where does God want To lead me. What do I maybe even want to try to be more open to this year? So last year, my word was alignment, which was a really good word. A word that was. Was at times surprising, sometimes a little bit painful. Sometimes it felt like shedding. And this year, my word is flow. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Really? I mean, I'm thinking, like, probably because I was at the chiropractor yesterday, but I'm like, you have to get in alignment before you can flow. So that. [00:03:16] Speaker A: That's right. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And it's so funny how these things, you know, it really. For me, it's kind of a fun. Like, there's just like, this sense of an unfolding that I feel like a lot of times happens in this process. Like, the year before that my word was goodness. And that was just. It's just like, I almost love to see how these things, like, sometimes I think it's going to go a certain way and it ends up being, like, a completely different way that that word has been an anchor in that year. So. Yes. Flow. I love. There's a great quote by Virginia Woolf, and she says, I am rooted, but I flow. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Ah, nice. [00:03:58] Speaker A: And I. It kind of reminds me of what you're saying, like, the alignment. Right. The rootedness, almost, but I flow. Yeah, right. That anchoredness but allows me to flow. And. Yeah. And then I love the verse, you know, it's in John. Jesus talks about, you know, whoever believes in me, out of them will flow rivers of living water. So those are kind of my two, like, quote in scripture that sort of, I don't know, have helped me come to that word. [00:04:26] Speaker B: I love pairing a scripture and. Or a verse or whatever with, you know, a quote with your word of the year, which is actually perfect once we start talking about your book of quotes that's coming out. But it makes me laugh because I was in a big. Like, when I was in college, I decided that I was gonna make, like, a rhyme for everyone for our New Year's resolutions. [00:04:50] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:04:51] Speaker B: Oh, mine was negative. No more in 2004. And I still remember it because, guess what? I made up, like, this goofy little thing to go with it. If my word had just been, like, positivity, I probably wouldn't have even remembered what it was, you know? I love it. [00:05:06] Speaker A: It's amazing. It really stuck. [00:05:08] Speaker B: It's like all of my roommates. It was so silly. So silly. But it helps. It helps. [00:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Well, what would you say to people who maybe are already feeling discouraged with this year and they're like, oh, I was really hoping 2025 would be better and it's just not showing up that way so far. [00:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think the first thing that I would say is that that's valid. You know, I think our, our emotions, our disappointment, it. I think it really matters that we honor where we are, whatever that means. You know, and in a way, it's like we can't really do anything else until we can really just acknowledge and validate and honor the truth of where we are. Now, I think the other thing to know is, I think particularly like something like New Year's, there's an even early in the year there can be a lot of cultural and societal sort of pressure and expectations that gets put on this year. That really is, it's, in my opinion, it almost makes me think of my new book, like, take what you need. If it is not helpful to you, if it is not a resource, if it actually feels like a burden, like that is not. That doesn't need to be something that you bring with you into your life in order to make you like, you're no more valuable or loved. If you set a goal or if you meet that goal right now, it doesn't mean that that can't be helpful for you sometimes. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:35] Speaker A: But I think, you know, in our culture that is honestly quite obsessed with productivity, with certain levels of, you know, I think whether, again, I think that health matters, but though sometimes things in the wellness industry can come out sideways, are we get our value so matched to our, how we look, our productivity, all these things. Right. And it's, and it's part. Not that there's not, it's not true in other parts of the world, but I think it definitely has a particularly Western culture, for sure sort of element to it. And so to me, I think really giving people permission to say, hey, if this is not in service of your wholeness, like, go ahead and put it down. [00:07:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:22] Speaker B: You know, well, and it's that whole discernment piece too. Like, even you mentioned when you were coming up with your word of the year, it's not like, oh, I'm just going to pick this word because I like to say it like you're, you're trying to sit with God and go, hey, what is the direction? What is my focus? And so this year, actually I'm a very driven, very goal oriented. I want to perform, I want to succeed, I want like all of the things. And this is the first year that I don't have a word, I don't have a Goal. And I. But I very much feel a sense of calm about it. And I'm still processing with God, like, what exactly this means. And I was trying to explain it to my husband. I was like, I'm not, like, taking my foot off the pedal. I'm going to keep doing things. There are still things that I want to do, but it's like, I don't feel the need to level up this year, if that makes sense. That. I don't know. God is just like. Like, just like, just breathe, actually. Maybe like it's good and everything. I don't know. It just feels calm. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:21] Speaker B: So very interesting. But it feels anti my personality, you know, all that to say. But I'm like, but. But this is what I need this year, I guess. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And, yeah, I mean, I think that's great insight. And in a lot of ways, it kind of reminds me, you know, my first book, Try Softer, which, you know, one of the things that is so interesting and has been such a paradox, and honestly, there's lots of neuroscience that helps us understand, like, sometimes the most, like, we change or grow or move through pain the most effectively, not because we're pushing harder, right. But because we actually sort of tune into the pace that we need versus allowing maybe the culture or maybe some external source to say, here's what you do to get change, get better, fill in the blank, whatever, right? So when we tune into the pace of our body, that actually it's kind of like, you know, sort of. You know, I live in Michigan now. I used to live in Colorado, so lots of snow. And I think of it like, okay, so like when a car gets stuck in the snow, you know, like, you might start to spin your wheels, right? And you are maybe putting that gas on, but all that's happening is your wheel spin. You're not actually going anywhere. And there is a way in which our nervous system is. Is very similar. Like, if we are pushing really hard, but it's not in alignment with the pace of our body, with the resources we have with the support, we will spin, right? And our bodies will literally just expend energy. We will get burnt out. We will be more exhausted and more stuck. [00:10:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:05] Speaker B: Without accomplishing anything. Quote unquote. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Quote unquote Quote unquote. Right? But if we. In the same, you know, analogy, if you. I remember when I moved to Colorado, I was like 22 years old. I had this little Toyota Corolla, and I remember getting stuck in the snow, and I had learned that I had to rock so, you know, I, like. [00:10:26] Speaker B: People to the south are like, what? [00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So basically, you know, because if you. So you don't put your foot full on the gas, but what you do need to do is put just a teeny bit on the gas. You go forward, you allow the car to come back, and then you use the momentum to gently begin to get yourself out of that hole. And what I would say is, in many ways, this is very similar to what our bodies need. And I'm talking about our bodies, but I'm also talking about the integration of our body and mind and spirit. [00:10:56] Speaker D: Right. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Because all of these together, if we can honor the pace, if we can actually tune in in participation with God's spirit, then we. I think about Jesus, you know, when he talks about, you know, like, my. Come and come to me if you're weary and laden. And, like, I'll show you these rhythms of grace, right? And that there's these rhythms that maybe to somebody else, they're like, what? You're not going anywhere. And you're like, don't you worry. Don't you worry. I'm just rocking right now, but I'm about to, you know, and so I don't know. It just makes me think about, this is where we're all. It matters that we honor the person that God made us. [00:11:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:39] Speaker B: That's such a great visual of the car in the snow. And maybe because I learned how to drive in Michigan in the snow, but even paired with that verse, like, yes, spinning your wheels is not a rhythm, but the rocking is a rhythm like that, like, so that. That's gonna stick with me. So thank you for that. You also did in Trisoft, I did read try softer in 2020. I've been following you ever since. And you. One of the things that I highlighted, you know, in regards to all this, you said it takes as long as it takes and it's okay to be unfinished, and that God is not surprised at our process. I think that was a really important thing for. For people to remember, too. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I just want to just say briefly, like. Yeah. I mean, I think so often, you know, we tie. We think God's disappointed with us. [00:12:28] Speaker B: He's like, come on, what are you doing? Let's go. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, it's not. And this is that paradox where it's like, it's not that we're not going grow and change. It's that when we make the growth in the change where our value lies, we get oriented to the wrong thing. And we cannot help but get turned around because it will. It will fade, it will ebb and flow. We will have years that are hard, and we will have years where we're running. And if we measure our value on that, we are will be like dust. We will get blown away. [00:13:04] Speaker D: Right. [00:13:05] Speaker A: We need things that keep us stable and solid. And there has to be something more than our performance. [00:13:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:13] Speaker A: That allows for that. [00:13:16] Speaker B: So. Good. Well, in the intro of take what you need, and you mentioned this a second ago too, but you talked about having a traumatic childhood that made you become hyper attuned to what other people wanted for you. Can you share a little bit more about what that experience was and how it's shaping you now? [00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So part of my story, for folks who aren't familiar with it, you know, I would say I'm a survivor of complex ptsd, and part of that was really chronic abuse throughout my childhood. And, you know, I would say emotional, psychological, spiritual. My dad was, I would say, the primary abuser. But my mom struggled with multiple addictions, had lots of her own trauma, so really wasn't able to be as present or protect me and my siblings in the way that we really needed. So there was just so many ways that even though I would say there, there, there was, there is love, there was love, but there was more rupture than there was repair always. And so one of the. The primary tenants of trauma is that if rupture, if. If the things that are painful or overwhelming or disturbing don't have repairs that match the size of those wounds, that's where. And we can talk about trauma more too, but just essentially, this is where trauma begins to accumulate in our body. [00:14:43] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:43] Speaker A: And so when you think about that for decades, like decades. Right. So for me, 22 years before I really had the space or safety to begin healing, what I would say is that one of the ways. It wasn't the only ways, but one of the ways that my body adapted was by utilizing something called our fawn response, which is something that. It's this very complex response that people develop when other trauma responses don't work. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:13] Speaker A: So it's like, if you can't, like, you know, there's fight and flight and maybe potentially like a dissociation or a collapse. Right. These are the. These are the ones that people usually know about. [00:15:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:24] Speaker A: When those aren't successful people's bodies almost unconsciously, it wasn't like, as a kid, I was like, you know what I'm going to do? Get really good at Accommodating people. We just. Our bodies are really good at adapting. God designed us to survive. And so I learned I have this. I am. I'm already a really highly sensitive person. But I think because of my trauma, I developed this intuitive, like, awareness, particularly of my dad, of where is he? What is his mood? What does he need? What do I need to do? What do I need to say? How do I need to make sure he's happy? Is this a moment when I could ask a question? Do I need. You know, it's very much walking on eggshells. But it wasn't. So what's interesting about our bodies is even though that really started with my dad, who was one of my primary attachments, what our bodies tend to do is we transfer that to other relationships and other. Because it's a script and it lives in our body and it even in many ways transferred to God. For me, for many years of like, who do I need to be? How do I need to act? How do I need to just even whether that's over. Accommodate, over function, overwork, impress you, make sure that your. Whatever you think of me matters more than what I'm experiencing. [00:16:50] Speaker D: Right. [00:16:51] Speaker A: And so part of how that developed in me is, I would say, a way of which I would leave myself, or some people might say I would abandon myself. [00:17:02] Speaker D: Right. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Because what that means is I was not connected to my body. I was. So what's the language I use? I was over attuned. [00:17:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:17:12] Speaker A: So it matters that we care about other people. But when our bodies have learned we have to be so aware of other people from a place of keeping. Keeping us safe, this is where it shifts out of like, empathy, compassion into things that have, you know, can. Are usually harmful. Because what that means is, is that the narrative that lives in my body is I have to keep you happy no matter how it hurts me. [00:17:44] Speaker B: Right. In order. [00:17:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:46] Speaker A: Yep. And so what that taught me is the way that played out in my family was that I learned to really suppress my needs. I learned. I mean, how I adapted and how I got some of my needs met was to try to be really impressive. I was a really accomplished athlete, accomplished student. I was all. I never got in trouble. I was a really good kid in all those respects. [00:18:11] Speaker B: My guess is that's when you would get the attention or the affection that you were looking for. Right. When you achieved or when you. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Or at least something. Right. Okay. Like. Yeah. And that's how I describe it, is that it wasn't what I really ultimately needed, but it was as close as I could get. [00:18:26] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, right. [00:18:28] Speaker A: Because there was. That was all that was available and so. But absolutely. I mean, I think that's a good insight. And this is how our bodies adapt. Our bodies just naturally sit. Like, we are designed for connection. [00:18:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker A: And as kiddos, we don't walk around cognitively going, how do I get connection? We go, I'm going to do whatever I have to do. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Right, right. Whatever works. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Whatever works. Whatever works. And we just do that and we just adapt and we tie ourselves into pretzels and that begins to shape who we are. And so take what you need. In so many respects has really been this evolution in my work of when I'm in therapy with people, one of the things I try to really do is emphasize choice. An invitation, like, really inviting folks to check in. Like, you know, I want to invite you to. If it feels comfortable, you could close your eyes as we go through this practice. [00:19:30] Speaker D: Right. [00:19:30] Speaker A: But there's a choice there. And so what I found as I began writing publicly is I was like, how does that translate? Yeah, how do I help people to know, Look, I'm not sitting here bossing you around. [00:19:45] Speaker C: Right. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Like, you are. Like, you have agency. God gave you wisdom. There's wisdom in your body. I am not. Like, you have more access to that wisdom in your body than I have access of wisdom to your body. [00:20:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's good. [00:20:01] Speaker A: Right? And so I wanted. So it's probably. It's been several years where I started when I would share something. I would say, take what you need if it resonates, if it feels like a resource. And a lot of that came out of that, you know, part of me, when I was so young and really over time continued to have. Carry that pain of wanting and needing to be able to have needs. [00:20:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:30] Speaker A: But also not wanting people to say, like, I'm not the boss of you. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not here to tell you. Maybe what I have to say today isn't for you. That's okay. Yeah, that really is okay. And I actually want you to listen to that. [00:20:47] Speaker B: Right. I'm gonna break in really quickly to let you know that I'm doing a new thing here at Becoming Church. Since Andie always encourages us to go at our own pace and take what you need. I realized that you may need to pause and reflect as you're listening to these episodes. And I know that depending on the topic or how much self awareness work you've done in the past, you maybe don't always know how to do that. Well, I would love to help. So I'm going to start creating weekly episodes that will be emailed out every Monday. If you are interested in receiving reflection type journal prompt questions, sign up for the email in the show notes. Try it for a few episodes and see if you like it. And if it's not for you, you can always unsubscribe and just stick to listening. My hope is this will help you take these conversations even farther personally and into the conversations with the people around you. All right, let's get back to repairing with Andy for parents and caregivers that are listening. Because, you know, I think a lot of this, like you said, happens in childhood or as we're developing. And what that listen, developing can still be in your 20s even. You know, I mean, the brain takes a long time to like fully form. But what is something that parents or caregivers can do to make sure that they're not like suppressing the voices of the children in their lives or maybe accidentally putting them through experiences like you and so many other people had to grow up in? [00:22:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, the first thing I would say is, you know, there is no possibility for perfection in parenting. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:34] Speaker A: There's just. It's not even on the table. [00:22:36] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:22:37] Speaker A: And research actually shows that, you know, really what is called good enough parenting, which was originally coined by Donald Winnicott, but really how I define it is now really backed up by research from Ed Tronick and his team. And good enough parenting seems to be what supports the most likelihood of what's called a secure attachment. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:23:02] Speaker A: And a secure attachment is that template in our body and really any type of attachment style. So really there's basically from a big category, there's secure attachment and insecure attachment within insecure. There's some different categories, but we'll keep it broad. So secure attachment for kiddos, really for all of us, is sort of the template that lives in our body that helps us to predict that when there has been rupture, there will be repair. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Okay. [00:23:33] Speaker A: And it starts from our earliest, like literally from our first breath. [00:23:37] Speaker B: Okay. [00:23:39] Speaker A: And it's really initially based off of how our caregivers responding to a kiddo's needs. [00:23:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Now, this is where it's important to understand we're not going to be perfect. [00:23:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:52] Speaker A: Because sometimes it's our own stuff, our own work, we're tired. We sometimes because of our own trauma or mental health issues. But when we. So. So this research from Edtronic shows that and to Me, I always find this really encouraging. Basically, parents who are providing that good enough parenting, two thirds of the time, they are either accurately responding or they're repairing. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Oh, hallelujah. [00:24:21] Speaker A: When they've missed, right? So it's like your child comes home from school and they tell you they've had a really hard day and you're just, like, busy, and you, like, don't even really acknowledge it. Just get a snack. I'll see you in a couple. [00:24:33] Speaker D: Right? [00:24:33] Speaker A: And they're just like, you know, they're hurting, like, whatever. They're feeling their feelings. And then five minutes later you're like, oh, I just. Oh, I just missed something. [00:24:43] Speaker D: Right? [00:24:44] Speaker A: You go back and you say, oh, honey, you know what? Mommy was on the phone. I was really distracted. And now I realized it sounds like you had a really hard day at school. You know, like, I'd love to hear about it if you want to. If you want to talk about it. [00:24:59] Speaker D: Right? [00:25:00] Speaker A: So that's an example of. That's a little bit of a rupture, that first one. And then when once we realize there's been a rupture and we go back and repair, that's part of secure attachment. [00:25:12] Speaker B: Okay? [00:25:13] Speaker D: Right. [00:25:13] Speaker A: So it's not just getting it right all the time, right. Going back. And really, this is so connected to our faith, right? Of like, taking, like, reckons, like going back and asking for forgiveness, like, I'm so sorry, like, how can I make that right with you? [00:25:29] Speaker D: Right? [00:25:29] Speaker A: That's repair. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Okay? [00:25:32] Speaker A: So doing what we can to be attuned, first and foremost. And second, repairing when we mess up and that other third of the time, that's 33% of the time, you're gonna probably miss it. Yeah, you're gonna miss it sometimes, Right? And. And because you have this other base, your kiddo learns, like, ultimately it's gonna still be okay. [00:25:57] Speaker D: Right. [00:25:58] Speaker A: Or maybe they might come to you and be like, mommy, why. Why did you not listen to me when I told you? [00:26:04] Speaker D: Right. [00:26:05] Speaker A: Because. Because when we've had enough secure attachment, kiddos learn, like, oh, I want some repair here. I want to stay on the same page with you. Yeah, Right. So I think, going back to your original question, so much of this is about one, we need as parents. I'm a parent. I have two kiddos. I make mistakes. We make mistakes. And it's really important to, you know, as you're able to have self compassion, to. To really give yourself permission to access the compassion God has for you. And that research really shows us that, that, that compassion actually helps us To. To take accountability. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:26:52] Speaker A: Which I think is amazing. [00:26:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:54] Speaker B: Well, that's actually what I just wrote down. I was like, there ha. There has to be a level of, like, there can't be pride in our parenting when we need to repair. There has to be a level of humility, a level which I think is all modeling really fantastic skills for our kids, but I think for maybe the way a lot of us were raised of that just, like, do it because I said so. Like, because I'm the adult and you're the child, where it was meant to garner respect and, like, to show respect. I think what it actually does is just show our kids. Like, no, when you make a mistake, you actually just explain away why you didn't make a mistake, you know, and so there has to be that humility to, like, you said, hey, I was distracted, whatever it was. And not only are, I think, are we repairing then the rupture and the disconnect that was there, but we're also modeling how our kids then are going to repair with other people when we can admit, like, yeah, I did make a mistake, but I want to fix it, and here's how to fix it. And I think sometimes that can be the sticking point for parents even. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, because it's scary. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Right. And it's different. [00:28:05] Speaker A: It's different. And if you. If that was not modeled for you. [00:28:10] Speaker D: Right. [00:28:11] Speaker A: You are literally breaking new ground. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:14] Speaker A: And part of what's happening for many people, and I see this all the time in my work, it's part of my own story, is that we're having to actually sometimes interact with the pain of our own story. Sometimes. [00:28:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:29] Speaker A: As we're parenting, like, parenting is a whole. Like, it often opens us up. [00:28:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:35] Speaker A: Two things. Like, we had maybe no idea that was still a pain point. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Right. Until our kids started pushing on it. Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Because you see your kiddo at whatever age, you know. [00:28:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Whether it's they're three, they're six, they're nine, they're 12. Whatever happened to you or what didn't happen. [00:28:54] Speaker D: Right, right. [00:28:55] Speaker A: The attention you didn't get, the attunement you didn't get, the. The validation, the repair, the modeling of how to repair even boundaries. Being able to say, hey, that doesn't feel good to me if you're not allowed to do that as a kiddo. We don't just suddenly become an adult and be like, you know what? Here's all my good boundary, healthy boundary work that I suddenly developed overnight. That's not how it happens. Right. And so in the process of parenting for so many people, I would say that we have an opportunity often to do some re parenting with parts of ourself. [00:29:36] Speaker D: Right. [00:29:37] Speaker A: So in that example where, like, we have to go back to our kid and apologize and. And we're noticing, like, we just want to say, like, you know, to not have humility, to sort of be a little bit like, I'm right. You know, I think for anyone who experiences that, I would just invite you to bring some curiosity there. Like, what does that remind you of? What is scary about potentially trying to really apologize and take ownership? [00:30:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Because often that's actually kind of a protection around the pain. [00:30:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:17] Speaker A: That maybe you didn't have that happen to you. And so there's almost like a younger you that's saying, well, like, if I didn't get that, why should they? Right, right. And so when we are able to sort of get grounded and come from that adult self, we can say, oh, but what kind of parent do I want to be? [00:30:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:39] Speaker A: And even, like, what does neuroscience teach us? What is attachment research? And really, who. What is God like? [00:30:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:47] Speaker B: I think, too, for people that are not parents and even people who are, like, we can also apply this to other areas. You know, even the idea of, like, there's so many people in this, like, sandwich generation where we're raising kids, but also our parents are still around, and I think sometimes it can even be harder, like, going up that way of, well, I didn't get this from you as a kid, so why should I extend it to you now? And it's still that same. Just to encourage people that maybe aren't parents currently. Like, this can also be extended to co workers and parents and siblings and friends. And. [00:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:22] Speaker B: Before we go on to take what you need, which we've mentioned a couple times, I want to touch on one more thing, Andy, was that you said that you transfer this attachment style to God sometimes help us to understand what that looks like, or maybe even help people to recognize that the way they see God is somehow connected to their attachment style. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll give you a few examples. You know, I think so. Just that first category of the secure attachment, I think, in so many ways, I think is a picture of perhaps what God is working towards in us, that we would have something in us that comes to believe that even when things are hard, like, not in this, like, yucky, like, toxic positivity way, like, everything's gonna be okay, but just, I think ultimately the healthiest faith is that There is almost like this deposit of, like, I don't know when. I don't know how, but I know that. That God is working on my behalf. And I think when I. Yeah. Almost makes me emotional to think about that because I think about how much. Well, first of all, I. In my own life. But often for people, how much they want that and want to have that kind of assurance, and that isn't always the truth. Right. And what I would say is, and that doesn't make them bad, and that doesn't mean they don't have a relationship with God. Oftentimes when you're noticing that gap between, like, man, God, I want to believe that you love me, and I just really don't. [00:33:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:04] Speaker A: Or I really actually believe I. I literally need to walk on eggshells. I need to perform. Or maybe I just need to keep you really far away. [00:33:13] Speaker D: Right. [00:33:14] Speaker A: And all of these things, there's. Within the insecure attachment categories, there's these three other styles. And basically it's anxious ambivalent, avoidance, and then disorganized. And briefly, what I would say is, is like with, for example, the anxious ambivalent is sort of this. Like, this is oftentimes where some fawning comes into play with God. There's a little bit like, oh, what do I got to do? What do I got to do to keep you happy, God? Oh, look, do you see my checklist? God, See how many times I read my Bible? Did you see how many times I volunteered? Am I good? Am I okay? [00:33:50] Speaker D: Right. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Like, and maybe there's even, you know, but then there might be also that despair of, like, but where are you, God? I don't feel you. And I. And there's this sense of, you know, and this is where it might connect to, like, a childhood experience of maybe you got some of the care you needed. [00:34:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:10] Speaker A: But there were really big gaps. There were really big ruptures that were never addressed, never talked about, not any of those things. And so when we transfer that to God, we begin to feel like, oh, I gotta just keep you happy so you don't abandon me. [00:34:25] Speaker B: I was gonna say, is that the anxious of, like, since I don't feel you now, I fear that you're actually not there. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Or that you've left. [00:34:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:33] Speaker A: Or maybe I'm the one you've left. Maybe you are real there for everybody else. That's right. [00:34:38] Speaker B: But not me. [00:34:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:39] Speaker D: Right. [00:34:39] Speaker A: So there might be, like, a feeling of, like, anxiety and then maybe even anger, like, aware and not that. I mean, we can be angry at God. God can handle all of our emotions. But you might just notice this pattern, this sort of feeling of like big fluctuations. [00:34:54] Speaker D: Right. [00:34:55] Speaker A: An avoidant attachment style typically comes out of oftentimes when kiddos have experienced parents who were maybe physically present, maybe they got their physical needs met, but really emotionally were very, very absent. And it was kind of like you had to figure it out on your own. Like you were sad. Like you're alone in your room if you're sad. [00:35:17] Speaker D: Right. [00:35:18] Speaker A: Like you're angry. Like you get away from here. Because we don't do anger here. [00:35:22] Speaker D: Right. [00:35:23] Speaker A: So what we, what people learn from those styles is, is the only way they, they are. The language people sometimes use is like self soothe. But really people aren't self soothing. They're basically learning to disconnect from their body and their emotions. And so that's what avoidant attachment sometimes teaches us. And we might experience that with God as God just keep, just stay over there. [00:35:47] Speaker B: Like our real selves and what we really feel and how we really think and all of that. [00:35:51] Speaker A: That's right. Although we might, we might be cool cognitively. Like, I'm like, oh, I could read, I could tell you all the scriptures. I could give you lots of facts. [00:35:59] Speaker D: Right. [00:36:00] Speaker A: Because our left brain, it tends to be. Folks with avoidant attachment tend to really lean on that left brain which is really logic driven and so tends to really show up in faith as like, let me just tell you the facts about God. Let me give you like all these categories that maybe just like are a very logical experience of God. But it's not that. It's not the embodied knowing of God because it feels really unsafe. [00:36:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:27] Speaker A: To, to know God, to maybe experience God in that really present way. And then that last one that this organized attachment is really connected to when folks have had experiences of their primary attachments themselves, be abusive to them. And so what begins to happen is there's this catch 22 experience where it's like, you want connection, but it's also the thing that literally harmed you. [00:36:55] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:56] Speaker A: So it makes this constant feeling of like frozenness, like I can't really move towards you, but I actually kind of can't fully move away. [00:37:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:04] Speaker A: And with God, I find for a lot of people there tends to be, you know, I see this in a whole spectrum, but for many people that has been experienced, like, I want to know God, but like when I try to pray, I dissociate when I try to open or read my Bible, like I just, I literally like have Such dread. And I'm so disconnected. I can't. I can't even imagine what that might be like as being something that would be helpful for me right now. [00:37:34] Speaker D: Right. [00:37:35] Speaker A: And so. Because what that is showing is this experience of. That goes to a part of our nervous system called our dorsal vagal, which is when we are outside of our capacity, outside of our window of tolerance where we go to a place where there's just like, danger, danger, danger. And it's. And it's more of like a trapped feeling of danger versus a feeling where maybe you could actually get away or get out. And so these are just all ways where we, you know, this is just how relational templates live in our body. And. And that is. And that's just. You know, we might see those also not just from parents, but like our romantic relationships that could get transferred. It could be with close friendships. And these are not diagnosis, you know, these are not diagnoses. These are templates that can shift. They can heal. And I'll just say one more thing. Like, in my journey, you know, God, My experience of God had been a resource in my early childhood, but there was still a lot of insecure attachment has been in my life. And what was so interesting for me is that really experiencing my husband as very secure and safe helped me begin to transfer that. [00:38:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:54] Speaker A: As beginning to really experience God differently. And so I just say that because I think, first of all, God made us. Like, our bodies are literally so creative. [00:39:05] Speaker D: Like. [00:39:06] Speaker A: Like whenever I think sometimes people make these very rigid, I don't know, exclamations around what healing looks like. I always think, wow, look at how creative God is. [00:39:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker A: There are so many ways we heal, and we are literally designed for healing. And so I like to always just share some of those things because it can be hard to hear. Yeah, it can be hard to hear that. But I really believe that healing is possible. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Well, I'm so glad that you used the word relationship as well, because that's kind of what I was thinking too, is this is the difference between our God, Right. The God that. That we believe loves us, versus any other God out there of any other religion, is that this is because it is a relationship. It's not just, okay, well, I believe that you exist, and I believe that maybe you have, like, superpowers or whatever, but it is a relationship. And so like anything else. Yeah. We have to realize when we're projecting things on him, when we are projecting, like, the way that. The way that God sees me was something that I had to really wrestle with for a long time. I'm sure it was connected to my attachment style. But my whole relationship with God and my whole relationship, I would say even with Christianity shifted once I realized that God doesn't see me the way that I would see me if I was God, if that makes sense. That like, it's very different. And so, yeah, I think for anybody listening for the first time is like, what that was a lot of words. I'll kind of. I'll list some things in the show notes and give people resources where they can kind of dig into those attachment styles because it really is worth thinking through and sitting down and taking the time to process and just practice a little self awareness and be like, all right, what maybe feels like it fits and why and how am I projecting this onto God? [00:41:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say, you know, both in Tri, softer and strong, strong like water and both of my guided journeys, I go into that in depth because I really attachment work is central to so much of this work. And so, and not to say that there aren't other good resources too, but just to say that is because this is such a huge part of this work. Because really, you know, when we're talking about like for example, both in Tri software and Strong like water, part of actually what we're working towards is a secure attachment in ourselves. [00:41:34] Speaker D: Right. [00:41:35] Speaker A: So not just. So partly part of that work is if we can receive the security of God. And part of what begins to happen is it shifts the template that lives in us. So then it becomes not just my relationship to God though, that's. That matters not just my relationship to others, but my relationship to my whole self. [00:41:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:56] Speaker A: And that work is. I just love how. I mean that word relationship is the key element here because we. There is so much mutuality, so much reciprocity and so much relational elements to basically all of this. And honestly, like for me, I constantly geek out at just like how cool it all is that it. It honestly fits together so beautifully. [00:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, take what you need comes out on Tuesday, February 18th. I love too that this one feels they're. They all connect you to yourself. But I love that this one seems even more like, you know, like you said earlier, it's for the reader, it's for whatever works or fits for them that day. But how did try softer and strong like water lead to this book? [00:42:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, great question. I mean, I think what one of the things, like it's just been such a privilege. It's been like about five years since Tri Softer came out. And it has been truly a privilege to hear people, you know, interact with this work and really, in so many ways, like, learn to make it their own, to almost begin to. To sort of take what they need, you know? But some of the feedback that I've gotten, and this has been so helpful for me to hear, and I've known this to be true even before, is that sometimes, particularly, like, when you're in it, like, you're in the storm, like, you are in. Like you are beyond your capacity. You are toasted. Is not always the time that you can pick up a book like Trace after, for example, and really maybe dive into, you know, maybe like, neurobiology. Right, right. And so. And one of the things I would hear from people, like, what, for example, like, I always encourage people, like, literally go at whatever pace you need. So I had. I've had people. They're like, I read one chapter a month because that's what I needed to be able to, like, let my body process it, things like that. But I just would hear from people, like, sometimes, like, I can only just do, like, literally this much. [00:44:00] Speaker B: Kids. [00:44:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:01] Speaker D: Right. [00:44:02] Speaker A: And it got. Got me thinking, and it really even influenced how I. How I show up on social media, for example. I often don't do, like, huge, long things. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just find that especially for trauma survivors, their nervous system is so flooded, often with pain, you know, that it is, like, I got. I got so little capacity to. To. To, like, learn that I need to not be, like, overwhelmed by what I'm hearing. [00:44:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:32] Speaker A: And so take what you need really came out of. You know, for me, it's really, like, love. I hope that people feel this, like, love for my readers, for the readers who really. I hope across the spectrum, but sort of from a place where there's, like, these little chapters, these really little chapters, and we. There's probably, like, 20 of them. And within them, we've taken different quotes from Trey, softer and stronglike water, and tried to kind of match them with, like, take what you need when you're exhausted. [00:45:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Topical. [00:45:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Take what you need when you feel alone Take what you need when you need to know God's with you like, you know, take what you need when you need strength that is soft. Like, all these different things. And I really want. And my hope is, is that people will look at that list and actually just kind of take a moment to listen to their body. [00:45:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Like, what do I need? And give themselves permission, you know, to Go to just that thing that they need. And just if that's, you know, maybe sometimes it's a couple pages, sometimes it's more, sometimes whatever that is. But really, in a way, like, it's almost an attunement practice to our bodies. [00:45:42] Speaker D: Right. [00:45:43] Speaker A: And so I've kind of been calling it a contemplative coffee table book because it's our designer, like, the designer Eva at Tyndale. Like, I got to work really closely with her. And so we really tried to make it, you know, aesthetically beautiful. [00:45:57] Speaker B: It's so beautiful. [00:45:58] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:45:59] Speaker B: It's so beautiful. And it's very calming. Even, like the. I'm sure there's, you know, psychology to this. Even, like, the colors and the design. And it's all just very. Like, as soon as you open it, you just start to breathe. You're like, oh, okay, great. So well done. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Thank you. Oh, that means so much. Yeah. And that was really part of the consideration. I mean, a lot of the work for this book, because obviously we're pulling quotes, but it was really about thinking about what is the reader going to experience and really thinking about it through that lens. And there were. There was a couple beautiful covers, but my editor, Jillian, she's so great and so supportive of kind of the way I work. And, you know, I remember calling her, and I was like. I was like, this book, when I look at it in my mind, I think it's so beautiful, but I kind of feel anxious when I look at it. [00:46:43] Speaker D: Right. [00:46:44] Speaker A: And this particular cover that we did go with, I felt a deep calm. [00:46:50] Speaker B: Yep. [00:46:51] Speaker A: When I would look at the. In my. Like, I felt a settledness in my body. And that's why we went with this cover. And so I just, you know, this is where, for me, my own work really influences how I show up, because so much of it is about wanting to be. I have to be connected to my body. And really, for me, it's almost like a reclaiming. Like, where we started with that question that you asked about. Over attuned. Because I think, for me, I continue to be a very compassionate person. I continue to care about how other people experience things. And the question is the continued work of. But also staying with myself. [00:47:31] Speaker D: Yeah, right. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Like Jesus says, love your neighbor as yourself, and that there are those times when. Yeah. Just really doing the work of not leaving ourselves, knowing that that is God's heart and desire for us and really creates the pathway that we can live all of this out. [00:47:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:54] Speaker B: Well, this book, I think, like I said, it's so Aesthetically lovely. But also, I just was thinking about, as a pastor, there are moments where things happen and I get a phone call or I get a text or somebody needs prayer, and I just genuinely don't have the words. Or there are other moments where, like, you know, somebody just comes to mind and you don't know why or even, like, what the reason is, but God has just, like, put somebody on your heart. And so I was just like, this book is so perfect to sit on my shelf. And so when that happens, I feel like I could literally take it off the shelf, you know, go through the table of contents, figure out what it is, and just snap a photo and text it to somebody else, to a friend that's going through something. So I just encourage people if they're like, I don't know if I need a therapy quote book. You know, your words and your compassion. I think it's just a really great way when we don't know what to say to borrow somebody else's words, and you just have it laid out so simply, and it's so easy to use. I know if somebody texted me a picture or a quote, I would be like, wow, that was so thoughtful of you to think of this and give them something to meditate on. So I think there's a lot of ways that people. People can use this, for sure. [00:49:09] Speaker A: I love that idea. And, yeah, I think that's such a great. You know, just so many different ways that we stay interconnected and sometimes having the modeling of what it looks like to address whatever that pain point is. So thank you for saying that. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. I hope this doesn't offend you. The other thing it made me think of, and I hope that you know what I'm talking about. So toward the end of this pandemic, Steve from Blues Clues, do you remember him doing these videos? Do you know what I'm talking about? [00:49:40] Speaker A: I think I do. I think I do. [00:49:42] Speaker B: He came back out of nowhere and did this video of, like, hey, remember, I just, like, up and went to college. That was, I'm so sorry. And he was, like, literally talking to the generation of people that now, as adults, like, grew up with him as kids. And then what he started doing, Andy, is he would get on TikTok and he would just turn the camera on and go like, hey, how are you? And then would pause like he was listening, and then start saying things like, that sounds hard, or, I'm sorry that happened. And those videos took off like crazy. Because I think what happened was People all over the world who were looking for someone in their actual lives to just listen or say the words that they needed to hear were getting it from just a static, a screen. And so that's also like, what this book feels like to me is, yes, scriptures and reminders, but it's also, I think, reminders of God's truth. And maybe the words that either we need to hear now or words that our younger selves needed to hear. And so it's just one of those, like, you know, you open it and it's just like, oh, I didn't realize I needed to hear this. But God knew what we needed. And so I think he's speaking to people through your words and through these quotes and things. And it's healing. It's doing something, you know, in you when you read it. [00:51:06] Speaker A: Thank you for saying that. And I am not offended. And I think it's so beautiful. And yeah, it reminds me even of like, you know, like Mr. Rogers. And it's just like. [00:51:15] Speaker D: Right. [00:51:15] Speaker A: Like these different attachment experiences where we. Again, it even reminds me of like, these things where, whether it's with God or whether it's with others where we need, like, what would that even look like? [00:51:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:31] Speaker A: To have someone care about you in this way. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Because part of what happens is it begins to give us a framework to say. Then when I meet them in real life, I'm a little bit more like, oh, that's what that looks like. [00:51:46] Speaker D: Right. [00:51:46] Speaker A: This is what happens to so many people who have, you know, painful childhoods or painful, whatever the trauma has looked like in their life, where part of what's missing is there is no framework. Nobody showed them, nobody asked them, nobody said, this is how you should be treated after you were hurt. Right. And so to just begin to have that, it's not the be all, end all. It's not therapy. It's not like. [00:52:14] Speaker D: Right. [00:52:14] Speaker A: But there are these little. These little ways of goodness and grace. [00:52:19] Speaker D: Right. [00:52:19] Speaker A: That we build towards our healing. [00:52:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:23] Speaker B: Well, Andy, last question for you. Because the show is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:52:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What a great question. I, you know, I think particularly informed by my work, I think what I think about is just inviting people to continue that inner work of learning what they need to be able to receive. Yeah. God's care and love for them. And sometimes that's gonna come through things that are not always as, you know, given as much attention like, like therapy or other relationships that allow us to experience that. Because I think that really is what kind of gives us what we need to be able to participate with God in loving our neighbor as ourselves. And I think that's just such a. It's so basic and yet without it, we really don't have a church. [00:53:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:20] Speaker B: I mean, if. Yeah, that makes sense. Because if the church is the body of Christ and we don't know how to show up ourselves, then how are we supposed to form this community with other people? So it feels counterintuitive for those of us who grew up in the church very much with the idea of put everyone else before you. But yeah, it. We have to. That we have as much value as the next person. And God loves us just the same as he loves everybody else. And so when we say God so loved the world, that does include. That does actually include us. [00:53:54] Speaker A: That includes us. [00:53:55] Speaker B: Yeah, sometimes. [00:53:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And not to in any way minimize like, yes, let's love people, of course. And may we include ourselves. [00:54:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:04] Speaker C: Yes. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much for being here. This has been so helpful. I'll link up your books and congratulations on the launch on Tuesday. [00:54:13] Speaker A: Thank you so much. [00:54:19] Speaker B: If you are a 90s kid and you don't know that Blue's Clues reference, please go check it out immediately. Make sure to also follow Andie and get her book Take what yout Need. It would make a great addition to your own bookshelf or a lovely option at a Valentine's or Galentine's gift exchange. Remember to sign up for the email if you'd like those weekly episode questions. And until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around.