Mindy Summers: Finding the Margin

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mauchar Young, and my guest today is Mindy Summers. If you follow me on social media, then you've probably already seen Mindy's stuff. I share it often because her voice is so powerful. Mindy is someone that I found on the Internet and have engaged with often but have never actually met until today. She is a beautiful soul who is passionate about Jesus and loving people, as you will hear in this conversation. Okay, Mindy, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:53] Speaker A: It's so nice to be here with you. Thanks for having me. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm so excited that we are going to talk about advocacy and justice and all of these things that tell me if you agree with this. I feel like a lot of times Christians especially hear these words, but they just go like, oh, that's, that's worldly, or that's political. Like, don't get political. But I see them as actually pretty tied to the gospel. I think you would agree with that. [00:01:19] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Essentially tied. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:23] Speaker B: So let's start with. Before we dig into it, before we kind of like proof text, you know, back up the things that we think about that. How do you live this out? Because this is actually how I found you as I follow you on Instagram. I don't remember who recommended. I think it was actually Erin Moon recommended you as a follow. And you. Your voice is so needed and so important. And so first of all, just thank you for all of the things that you say. It's really, really important right now. But how did you even get started, like in advocacy work? [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I love, like, answering this question because it takes me way back. So I won't start, like when I was mindy with a 5 year old. I won't do that to you. But I did grow up in, like, the white evangelical church and learned to love Jesus at a very, very young age. Jesus completely captivated me and I wanted to follow him. And so, as you probably know, and probably many of your listeners know, there is a big, beautiful emphasis within the white evangelical church on evangelism and on missions. And so I did develop kind of a heart for compassion at a very young age, which I really appreciated. But God just continued to pull my heart towards more marginalized spaces broadly. And so I could feel that, like, looking back in high school, I could feel the work that God was doing in my heart. But where I think it really took off in college. My husband and I moved out to Los Angeles for an internship and did a, like a, I guess, whole summer long internship where we worked with the unhoused and at risk teenagers who had been in like gangs and then women who had been in really like exploitive places. And so that coming from a very tiny town in Missouri, it completely changed our life. It opened our eyes to realities that we knew, of course, but had never encountered firsthand. And it completely wrecked my husband and I. Like, we were, we were different people when we came back from that trip and how long we lived there for four months. So we lived like in the housing with everybody else and ate the meals with all the people. And it was, yeah, very transformative. But I think where it kind of kicked into high gear about 10 years ago, 12 years ago, we moved to where we live now. And we live in a very small, primarily white, pretty Midwestern town, very conservative thinking. And there are three strip clubs in our little town. Like in the months we're in the Bible Belt there, there are churches everywhere. And I was just kind of not expecting it, but we live in kind of a tourist destination. So I guess that's why these locations are here. And we. I began to kind of research, like, a lot of the stories that go with women who are in the sex industry and began to see things that I had never known before. I had always been interested in learning about and advocating for victims of sex trafficking, but within that, I realized that like, 70% of women who are trafficked worldwide are trafficked into the commercial sex industry so often, like, it looks totally like legal, right? And so just started learning about, like, the childhood trauma, the pain, the exploitation that goes into these establishments and began to just think of, like, ways that we could show sisterhood to these women. Like, no agenda, no preaching, no bibles, just care, just sisterhood. And so 10 years ago, we started showing up at our local strip clubs with baked goods and gifts. And we're very awkward. We lean into being awkward. But we've just been able to sit with women every, every month for 10 years. And that alone has it opened my heart to like a landslide of learning about injustice broadly. That would be my undoing, honestly. Like, and so it's been, you know, years of then learning about migrants and refugees, asylum seekers, and advocating for their welcome, learning about things like anti racism. I lead anti racism book studies now primarily for a bunch of white women. We're like, I didn't know this. And it's been such a gift to learn Together. And then more recently, I've been doing broadly, like, peacemaking efforts for kind of more global efforts. And that has. So it's been. It's been a landslide. I think once you start to see injustice in one place, it all starts to weave together and you realize like, oh, this is just everywhere. And so any work we can do to unravel a little bit of injustice, you're literally working out the whole thing because it's all. It's all intertwined together. [00:06:41] Speaker B: That's beautiful. I love that. I definitely agree with the statement that, like, once you see it, it does just kind of go then from one people group to the next people group to the next people group. That's how it worked. Me too. It wasn't like, oh, God, give me a heart for like, this group of people. It was like my prayer was, God, help me. Give me your eyes to see people the way you see people. I did not know that was going to lead me to advocacy or justice work. I just was like, just help me to understand them better and to love them better. And yeah, I've, I've noticed similarly to you. Like, I feel like I, I get to a heart for one people group. I have like a holy burden for this, you know, marginalized group. And then kind of like, do some work there, and by no means is the work finished, you know, but then God kind of will put something different in my path. And then I'm like, okay, well, now this is the, the marginalized group that needs my attention or my care or my education. Honestly, you know, I. We have to learn these things first before we can try to teach other people, you know. So, Mindy, being that you were raised in a white Midwestern evangelical, any of us who were raised like that, me raising my hand, like we understand what the picture of that is, we probably at least have some understanding of the people in your life, whether it's your, like, family of origin, neighbors, churches, people around you. How was that received? How was your advocacy work received to those people? And you don't have to get specifics, but just like, in general, yes, I. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Love speaking to this because I think there are so many on this journey that when we say things out loud, it helps other people not feel alone. So I appreciate you asking that. I did not expect the path that it took. I thought so. Let's say we go back to 2020, right? We have multiple, like, black Americans brutalized and killed. And, you know, everyone is seeing these things unfold. You have people begin to reckon with our history in America and begin to sit with and ask questions about, like, the origins of our church spaces and the ways that we act collectively and how that impacts more marginalized people around us. So I began reading even more at that time and inviting people into learning where there have always been, like, a hearty group of people that are like, I'm here for it. I want to learn. Let's get it right. We want to repent. We want to repair this. Right? I thought everybody would want to do that, Right? Like, I thought, man, people who follow Jesus are all going to want to be like, let's love our neighbor and care for the systems that are oppressing them. And let's deal with the way we talk about things because we know that words matter. And let's deal with the way that we're teaching our history because we know that history matters. I was not prepared for the response. I just didn't know. So it's been as beautiful as new communities are that we have built of people who are in solidarity with the margins. I would not be honest if I were not to say that. The labeling, the name calling, the ostracizing, the disinviting, the glares. Like, I live in a small town. I get glared at in the grocery store, and I'm like, I'm a nice lady, you guys. Like, I'm a nice lady. But when you begin to put a finger on something that causes people to feel uncomfortable, and even if you say it lovingly, you're messing with people's idea of their country, of their own identity, of their people group, and it is touchy. That's hard for people to sit with. And so there's been a lot. There's. It's. I mean, I lament the amount of, like, broken relationships that. That have come from just saying, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna speak up about this. And that has been with some of the people that I felt loved by, that I always belonged with. And so that journey for me has caused me to then revisit my own theology and the ways that I, like, consider the scriptures and what I fundamentally believe about God. Because the fruit of those responses have been like, wait, what is that? Like, are we all. Are we following Jesus? What are we doing here? So, yeah, I mean, it's been painful. I'm in therapy. I've got nervous system work I'm working on. There's broken family relationships that holidays are not what they used to be. And, yeah, it's lamentable. Yeah, it has. It has not been Easy. But I. I feel it in my. In my soul. So how do we. How do we be anybody but who we're supposed to be? [00:11:55] Speaker B: Right? Well, I thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate it. I'm so proud of you. I don't know if that means anything. Like, we just officially met, you know, in person. I'm so proud of you and the work that you're doing. And I know the cost. I understand the cost. I think a lot of people that are listening, who, even if they've just started, maybe not even with advocacy or social justice, but maybe have started reimagining their faith or how they see God or Christianity or what they think it means to live out their faith and be a Christian, like, they, they have experienced this to some level as well. And so just like I said, thank you for your. Your vulnerability and your authenticity there. I'm going to push you one step further and ask a practical question because I know so many people can relate to this when you. Let's just say. Let's just say family, right? We just came through the holidays. There's lots of times. There are times that we, we are, I don't want to say, have to be around people that, that don't understand. Maybe the work that you're doing practically. What does that look like for you? Like, have you guys just decided, like, this is something that we're not going to talk about? How do you navigate that? [00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think my current position is that I remain hopeful and I draw boundaries where there's harm being done. So if there is differences in opinion that get really unhelpful, like, it's not going to go anywhere, then I think, oh, it's probably not best to talk about this. Right? Like, we can just not have this conversation because we probably won't change each other's minds. Let's just find things that we can talk about and be in community together. Right. Probably primarily with family, like people that you often find yourself in spaces with. But if there is a crossover to there being harm being done towards my more marginalized friends or towards myself with the language that's being used, then I've had to draw boundaries, saying, oh, that I. I love you and I care about you, but this is too grievous for me to continue in. So navigating that has been wild, especially as a, as a Christian woman who. My narrative that I've been given through my life is like, you better be sweet. You don't make anybody uncomfortable. Like, I don't. I Don't know how to do that. [00:14:27] Speaker B: You're like, I'm sweet, but I am making people uncomfortable. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Yes. And so I think a lot of the time, in a practical way, what people can do is if you are having a conversation with people who might have a little bit of an openness to maybe hearing even a smidgen of what you might have to share, first of all, like, ask questions to them too. Like, hear where they're coming from, but also give them a real life story of, like a real life person. That's good. It's not a statistic. Yes, it's not a statistic. It's not a. Like, this is what. This, that it's. This is a person that I met. This is their story. And their story helped shape my view of this. And just invite people into learning. So I never have a conversation around advocacy. That's hard. That's like pushing up against something, that there's a wall there for them, that I don't invite them into further learning. So I always leave them, like, hey, here's a book that was super, super changed my life, or here's a podcast or whatever. Because people don't know what they don't know, but if they'll take the time to maybe listen, it could be really transformative. So those are some practical things. [00:15:33] Speaker B: That's great. And I think you just said the key things, like, if they're willing to listen, if they're willing to learn. And I always go back to where in the Gospels it talks about how, like, Jesus, you know, didn't do miracles in his hometown because they were like, jesus, like, who are you? You know? And so I always am reminded of that too. Like, just because you are called to a work doesn't mean that every single person on the planet is called to listen to your. Like, your voice is important and your work matters and you are going to help people see where God is, and you all help people to see the humanity and the spirituality of every other person. But it doesn't mean that every person, like, including our families, it doesn't mean we're going to be the ones that make that connection for them. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And I think so often with those closest to us, sometimes it's the hardest. And so sometimes there just has to be a boundary. And it is that scripture where Jesus tells them, shake the dust off your feet, Leave that town if it's not working, don't keep trying to make it work. Just be like, bye, bye. I wish you well. That is good holy work to know where to focus our advocacy. Focus it where people are hungry. Yes. Know something or at least curious. Yeah, that's the key, I think. Yeah, yeah. [00:16:53] Speaker B: And I would just say. And then don't bring it up. Like, there are, there are people who watch my Instagram stories every day, so I know they know what I'm doing, but they do not want to engage in this conversation with me. And so I'm like, that's fine. And so I just, I struggled with that for a long time because at first I was like, well, I feel like I'm being disingenuous or I feel like I'm not acting on the call that God has put on me to like speak for these people. But yeah, it wasn't going to go anywhere. It wasn't leading anywhere and it just was causing more harm. Even if it wasn't causing damage in the relationship to their knowledge, it was to me in my own mind, you know, So I just felt like God gave me permission to like, it's okay, you don't have to talk about this then. And hopefully one day we'll get to the place where we can. But yeah, when there are people that are unwilling, like, it's. You're allowed to, you're allowed to just not bring it up. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Uh huh. Yes. Full permission. [00:17:58] Speaker B: Yes. So on the other flip side, when you showed up at the strip club with like muffins for the ladies and you were like, hey, we just want to like, chat, how were you received there? What was that like? [00:18:12] Speaker A: Totally. We had no idea what they would do. They assumed we were Christians, which is real. I mean, obviously, right? Who else, who else is going to do that? So they would say like, do you. Are you from a church? Like, what are you doing? And so we just said like, no. I mean, we all go to a church, but no, we're not from a church. And we've been very specific to not be affiliated with a church, to be more community. So all of our people, they are in different spots in the community. But yeah, I mean, at first they were kind of like. And every once in a while we'll have a newer gal in there. It's like, what? And it's very, it's very comical, but we've built such relationships with the owners, the bouncers, the bartenders, and then the women over the years that now the. Our old friends explain to the new friends who we are. They call us the church ladies, which is the funniest thing I've ever heard in my whole life. Yeah, we certainly did not Introduce ourselves that way. So now they come running. The tutories are here. And our goal is to help read the room and read body language and to make sure that women feel safe and secure. And so we try to be kind of on a. Maybe a layperson's idea of like trauma informed, aware of the. What her needs might be, and to not make women feel uncomfortable even in the slightest. So we do. We are good at reading the room, so we generally are very welcome. We. Yeah, they've. They've actually we have one of the clubs that's like donated to what we do. Like, it's wild. One of the owners handed me like a thousand dollars to two months ago. He did that the year before. Like, he just takes it out of his pocket and it's like, please keep coming the girl. Actually, this. His words this month were thank you for loving us. And I just about just burst into tears in the middle of the clock. Like, that's all we want to do. Yeah. We just all need to be loved. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Wow. [00:20:18] Speaker A: And it can do a transport transformative work. Excuse me. When people feel safe. [00:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I know you. I've heard you call it your. The ministry of presence. [00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:30] Speaker B: How do you. If somebody was interested in doing that, maybe they're not quite ready to walk into a strip club. They're like, well, we don't have them in my town. Or I just, I'm not at that point. How can they lean into the ministry of presence wherever they are? [00:20:45] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Showing up and letting people be their full selves. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:53] Speaker A: And you being your full self is the only. It's the only grounds that flourishing can really happen in humanity. So I think anytime that we show up and we offer like a listening ear, we offer validation for the things people are experiencing. We don't try to correct. We don't try to steer people in a direction. We don't hold agenda over people that God loves. We just offer ourselves to them. I think that ministry of presence is one of the most sacred things that we can do in the world. I think it heals things that need to be healed in ourselves as well in as the people that we encounter. So just showing up and being your full self and letting people be their full selves, like, nobody needs to fix anybody. That's not our job. That's what we're doing. I don't want people to fix me. I just like, you know, like, I mean, we have people, but like, you want to be around people who are just fixing to fix you. Like, we don't want to. [00:21:53] Speaker B: You don't want to be a project? [00:21:55] Speaker A: No, no. And. And I think, like, in regards to showing up and being that safe presence for people, we remember that. I think as Christians, especially as Western Christians, we often think that we have something profound to bring to spaces which is not untrue. Like, we're beloved and made in the image of God. We have something to suffering, but we often are fixers, and we want to step in and we want to conduct the fixing. And we have to remember that Jesus identified as the vulnerable. He identified with the vulnerable. So when we go, we don't bring Jesus to the vulnerable. We go encounter the vulnerable. We go encounter Jesus when we are with the vulnerable. Like, it's not about me bringing Jesus to the margins. Jesus is already in the margins. I get to encounter Jesus when I go there. And that has been transformative to me. Like, there's nothing that any of these people need from me except love and the work that the Holy Spirit does in my heart, when I push closer to marginalized spaces, that's where the goal is. That's what I want. Like, that's what I'm often telling our team. Like, the work is in us. That's the work that the Holy Spirit is working on. And we can't do that work far away from the margin. I think it's impossible, honestly. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Right, Yeah. I mean, you can't love people that you won't allow yourself to get close to. Like, you can't care for someone that is, like, not even at arm's length, but is further. You know, there's. That can't happen. I wonder, Mindy, as you were talking, I think sometimes. Let me know if you. What you think, because this literally just popped into my head. But I also had to learn the lesson of, like, God doesn't need me to carry out his mission in the world. Like, yes, he wants us to participate. And. And we are. I'm honored that we're invited in, that we get to be part of it. But I think almost the language that we use and that we were probably raised with of like, quote, unquote, saving people. I think that maybe that's where this whole idea of, like, we have to bring God in or we have to do this came from. You think? [00:24:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So interesting. I was just having a conversation last week about this. This idea of salvation, which I'm not a theologian. I mean, I love the word of God and I love studying, but. So I won't pretend to be a theologian, but this idea of salvation and people being saved. I've reframed that to ask myself, what am I saved into? Like, what does it mean to be saved? Okay, then, like, my job as a Christian is to partner with God in restoring the world. Like that, the brokenness around us, like, God wants to save, that God's going to redeem and make all things new. And so what part of salvation is wrapped up in me restoring broken things? So I believe that anytime we enter into cultivating beauty, creativity, justice, peace, human flourishing, those things will have eternal, eternal life. Like, they, they. They won't go away. They're not gonna. They're not gonna burn. Like, that stuff matters. The things that we create that are beautiful and the ways that we love people, like, that's, that's our purpose as Christians. Not to, like, snatch people out of, like, whatever or to get people to a place like none. God must restore all of us. Let's be about the work of restoration, which means justice. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And like you said, we're not taking God to the margins. He's already there. We are going to the margins to help people see that he is already there and how he is with them in their situation or whatever it is. So as Christians, Mindy, we are called to bring light to the dark and to help heal the broken. And all of these things that we see, you know, in the Gospels. Do you see this happening in the mainline church? [00:26:06] Speaker A: In pockets? I do. In pockets. I see people in groups organizing and doing things. I'm like, oh, that's really beautiful. Like, we have a local church that is, like, opening their gymnasium for the winter during the evenings for people who are unhoused. Right. And I'm like, hey, that is beautiful. Yes. Like, we have these big empty buildings and we've got cold people in our communities. Why is that allowed? We gotta have. We gotta welcome. So that. Yes, I see pockets of it. I see a lot of good hearts doing really good things. I think if I were to speak very specifically, I think that the western church, primarily, the western white church, primarily, is highly individualistic. We really struggle being very collective in our theology as well as just the way that we live our life. So we hear of injustices, and we are. We are like, how can I help? Which is a great question to ask, but it's like, I'm going to donate to this, or, you know, I'm going to not be a racist. That's what I'm going to do to fight racism. Right? And it's like, okay, yes, but we can't Dismantle racism by being nice to black and brown people. That's not. That's not how this works. There are systems that are oppressing our neighbors, that require us to speak up and to use our privilege to rebuild systems that don't harm people. Right. And so I think the problem that we need to overcome is this individualistic thinking in our church spaces and in our own theology that it's my own self and my own personal righteousness and the ways that I love Jesus in my, you know, devotional time in the morning and my church attendance on Sundays. And I don't know. That's just not. Those are great things. Those are great things, Kristin. But it doesn't seem like that's what Jesus was about. You know, it seems like Jesus was about a lot more than that. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think that sometimes we tend to. We don't even realize that we're. We're looking inward. Right. Like, how can I help? I will just speak for myself. How can I help? When I see someone on the side of the road or an unhoused person or something, is a way for me to, whether it's outwardly or just to my own self, like, give myself a pat on the back for being a good Christian. Right. So, like, if I can hand out, you know, a care pack that I keep in my car to somebody on the side of the road with whatever they need in it, then I feel good about myself, and then I can tell myself that I'm a good Christian and. And that I've loved, like, Jesus. And that is. Yes, that's true. But I think accidentally it turns it in on us, and it's still not about that person or that marginalized community, that vulnerable community, because what am I actually going to do to help that community that literally lives in my backyard, like, is right here in my city? I think that's what advocacy does. Right. Like, it takes it to the next level. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yes. And it puts us in the place of being the helper or being the Savior instead of positioning ourselves in a place that, like, marginalized people know their needs and they know what their community needs. And so choosing to come underneath their leadership, their guidance, their wisdom, and forward what it is that their communities are needing with our own, with our own voice and our own privilege, because we stand in a position in the world where we have access that so many don't. And so to elevate what they are saying and to learn from them and to come with a posture of humility is profoundly impactful than just Like, I'm going to show up. I think it was Shannon Martin, who's one of my favorite humans ever. She wrote in one of her books about, like, this concept of the church going to the other side of their city with, like, a bounce house and hot dogs and a prayer tent. And it's like, no. Like, you got to invite people into your home. You got to, like, love people. You got to go to their home. You've got to have actual community with people. Like, this whole, like, I'm coming to do something for you. That's just. That's not how Jesus lived. If we look at the life of Jesus, we look at the Sermon on the Mount, look at the Beatitudes. That's not how Jesus lived. And I'm not going to preach. I used to be a preacher. I used to be. I used to be a pastor. Those days are long gone for me, but I still have a little bit of a preacher in me. But I get real, real riled up when I talk about Matthew 25 and the parable of the sheep and the goats. Because so when people push back on the idea of justice as if it's some sort of, like, secular worldly idea, it's like, have we read Matthew 25? Have we read the Beatitudes? Have we read the Sermon on the Mount? Have we watched the ministry of Jesus and who he hung out with and who he loved and who he invited to his table, who he spoke up to, who he was really harsh with and who he guarded? Like, who was that? But if we look at Matthew 25 and we look at the sheep and the goats, Jesus says again and again through his life and his modeling, but specifically there, that those in the last days, the sheep and the goats will be divided how? Well, because these people are really good people. They went to church on Sunday. They read their Bible. They didn't say any cuss words. Their skirts were long enough. No, no, no, no, no. He separated the sheets, the sheep and the goats, by saying, did you feed the hungry? Did you clothe the naked? Did you visit those who were in prison? Did you love the least? Because that's how I decide who you are actually following here, you know? Like, it's just so beautiful. The mission and the heart of Jesus, it's. It's profoundly captivating. Like, it's so captivating. [00:32:23] Speaker B: Yes. And it's often so much more simple than we try to make it be. Like, that's the thing, too, is we go, well, what will make us feel good to do? Like, oh, let's taking a bouncy house, like, sounds like, so fun, but maybe that's not what they actually need. And we need to show up in a way that actually fills the void, you know? And so, yeah, they don't. They probably don't need a bouncy house. They probably need someone to listen to them. They probably need. I mean, who knows, someone to watch their kids so they can go on a job interview or. You know, I think that's part of advocacy, too, is looking outward to do what actually needs to be done. And that's why I think it starts. Has to start with education, because we won't know. We'll only do what we think is helpful or what looks good. Right. If we don't educate ourselves by listening to those people. And last year, when all the flooding happened in eastern North Carolina, we went up there and we were just trying to help. Like, I mean, people have lost everything, you know, where we went. And there were so many different volunteer, like, stations where we ended up helping one day. And what they needed at one point was somebody to, like, mop the bathrooms because the toilets wouldn't flush. And then they needed somebody with water buckets to pour water in the back of the toilet so the toilets could flush with all of these hundreds of people coming through, either volunteering or trying to get food or whatever. So it's like people just had to do whatever needed to be done, you know? But that's not what we think of when we go in. It's like, oh, we're going to go and do all these things that are going to, like, make a cute Instagram reel and show the world, like, how we help these people. And sometimes it works out that way. But sometimes you need to be mopping a bathroom with a bucket and a wet, stinky mop, because that's the best way that you can love that community at the time. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And does the way that we engage with the work of justice or caring for our marginalized neighbors, how does that feel to them? I think we have to continually ask that question, like, how does my presence here and how is the way that I'm engaging or even speaking about you? What does that feel like to you? I hope that the ways that we speak about marginalized people is empowering that, like, this is where we should be learning from. This is. This is who we should be following, because Jesus is near the margin, and that's where we need to be as Christians, learning from them. They're the experts. They're the experts. I mean, if we look at the Beatitudes. They're the people that Jesus was like. They're the blessed ones. [00:35:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think it's so easy, too, to speak down to people, either that we're trying to help, especially in the moments when we're trying to help. I think. I don't know if it's that, like, parental, like, nurturing nature that we tend to then speak to people like their children, but that's not going to be helpful either. Like, maybe the meal that you brought is helpful, but your attitude toward them is going to actually do even more damage. And I. All the grace. All the grace for people who can think back and go, oh, shoot, I just did this or said this or did that wrong. I mean, that's part of learning, right? [00:35:42] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. We don't know better. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Until we know better. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:35:49] Speaker B: Well, what do you think that the Western church is missing when it comes to advocacy? I know you mentioned we have this, like, individualistic mindset. Do you think there's anything else that the church as a whole is missing? [00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think who we read from, who we learn from broadly, we need to, as Beth Moore once said, decolonize our bookshelves. We do. We can't just read from a bunch of white dudes and think that we are going to be able to live justly. Like, white dudes have some great things to say, but we need to have some. Some books and some sermons by women, by black and brown folks, by people from the global south right now. I keep saying anytime anyone will listen to me, that if we want to really experience the fullness of the Holy Spirit's work in the world, we should be at the feet of whatever person, whatever group of people is most marginalized in the world. So right now I'm like, if people were lining up to listen to Palestinian pastors right now, Palestinian Christians and leaders, like, that's the goal. That's where we're going to really be shaped into the way of Jesus, is by seeking out those voices that we often don't hear. And so if our bookshelves and our podcasts and our sermons and our friends and everything looks just like us, we're going to struggle to live justly. That's going to be a struggle. So I think it is, like, widening. Widening our influence is going to be key as well. So I always challenge folks if they're wanting to get started on this journey. Go find one thing in your community that pulls at your heart that you would love to support or Be a part of and begin to learn about that thing and learn about that thing from survivors or people who are a part of that group. Right. So mindful of the voices that you listen to and what they represent about that story. But just show up and ask how you can serve. Ask how you can help. You probably won't be able to lead it. You probably. You're not going to be in charge. You don't get to call the shots. But just show up and serve. And your heart. Once we're near people who have a different story than us, I think it's impossible to not be formed in the way of love. And I think that love heals everything. [00:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:16] Speaker A: So if we could get proximate. If we could be inconvenienced this morning. So our team that we go to the. To the strip clubs with one of the. So we are trained to visit with women who are in the emergency room after being assaulted or in a domestic violence situation. And so we partner with a local women's shelter and we get to. To go show up. And so like just this morning, one of the gals on our team, she woke, I got the call at like 7:15 this morning and she went to the hospital and just sat with this woman and just offered her presence. She doesn't know this woman. She doesn't know what her story is. I mean, she didn't. When she walked in the doors of the hospital, she had to rush her kids off to school and she was unshowered and she didn't get to put her makeup on and she had to put on a grungy hoodie and like, it was so inconvenient. Like it was not what she planned for her day. It was not necessarily. It wasn't fun. That was so hard. But like the act of her showing up and loving and being inconvenienced. I think if we're not willing to be inconvenienced as Christians, we are not following Jesus. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Have to be willing to be inconvenienced and uncomfortable. Not that we don't have boundaries. We have boundaries. [00:39:34] Speaker B: Sure, sure. [00:39:36] Speaker A: But it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be hard. But nothing good ever comes from easy. We don't grow when things are easy. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I think one of the. We learned this lesson from Jesus. Right. He has. I don't think there's a Bible verse where he specifically says, like, you need to be interruptible. But if we look at his life and the way he models love for us, he was so interruptible. And this is one that I struggle with because I'm like, I am a busy lady. I am in charge of a lot of things. There are a lot of people depending on me and counting on me. And so I'm like, I can let social media posts go for a couple weeks, or I can let this go or that go, but being interruptible with things that pop up is very hard. It's very hard for me, and it's something that I am working on because I know that that's what Jesus modeled with his life. But it could be very, very tricky. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Yeah, very tricky. [00:40:36] Speaker B: So this you mentioned, like, going into the hospital and you guys were trained. Was that a program that already existed in your hospital that you just signed up for? [00:40:47] Speaker A: It is through our local women's shelter. So they reached out to us and asked us if we would be willing to train, as they call them victims advocates. They have them in many communities that people can look into. There are many spaces that you could show up and be a victim's advocate. It could also be in police stations after there's a traumatic event for a person just being present and offering a calm and then helping them articulate what it is that they. That they need and what connections they might need in their community to be able to. To be safe and flourish. So, yeah, it's a. It's a really amazing community effort that I think a lot of people maybe don't know about, but. [00:41:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I've never heard of that. That's really. I'm like, now I need. I wrote it down. It's like, I need to look and see if we have this in my area too, hopefully. What about Mindy? You post a lot and you help people to hear voices, like, on the other side of the world. You've talked a lot about Palestine and Syria, and if somebody wants to try to diversify who they're listening to, that one's a little bit harder. Like, it's harder to just be like, well, I might not be able to just show up in my community and learn about, you know, learn from Palestinian people. What steps would you recommend for them to take so that they can start to do that? [00:42:12] Speaker A: Oh, oh, you're gonna. You're pulling out all my heartstrings. Yes. There's so many that I could recommend, but I currently volunteer for a Christian. It's ran by Palestinian Christians. It's a podcast. It's called across the Divide. They are loosely associated. Like, they are from Bethlehem and Beit Sahor area in the West. Bank. So they live in America now, but two of them are still in Palestine. But anyway, they have elevated some of the most incredible voices to help people learn. It is all from a Christian perspective, but super powerful. It's literally changed my life being in community with these precious, precious people doing really courageous work in a world that really wants to suppress their voice and their story. And so I often say, like, we can't. We are not pro some people and against other people. We are pro all people, but we can't be pro all people until all people are loved and valued. It's kind of that black lives matter, all lives matter thing, right? Like, yes, okay, yes, all lives matter. But right now, in this whatever season, black lives are not mattering. So until they matter, all lives are not mattering. So it feels like that situation for Palestine right now, like, Palestinian lives matter are not mattering to the west right now. And the amount of devastation and complete heartbreak that those communities are suffering, and it should stop all of us in our tracks because, yeah, it's not just something horrendous happening on the other side of the world that our own tax dollars, our own laws are affecting the lives of people that God loves so much. [00:44:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Much. [00:44:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:05] Speaker A: And so, yeah, I recommend across the Divide. It's a great podcast. And then learning from Manthir as off, he's a Palestinian pastor. He. His book on the Other side of the Wall, like, unraveled me in a lot of ways. I grew up in a very, like, Zionist home. And learning other perspectives. Other perspectives has really, like. It just looks a lot more like Jesus to me. So, yeah. Yeah, I've been grateful. The last couple years have just been so wild. Yeah. Living here and knowing what's going on and then, yeah, it's. [00:44:48] Speaker B: Yeah, there's grace for people who have not learned to diversify, you know, their voices, the voices they listen to yet. But at the same time, at the same time, we also live in the age of the Internet and audiobooks and podcasts, and it's definitely there. I think no longer can we use the excuse of like, oh, well, I don't know anybody that's fill in the blank, or there's nobody in my community that's fill in the blank. Well, these people do exist in the world, and they are using their voices. And no, no marginalized group is a monolith. So, you know, reading one author is not going to give you the perfect full picture of that group of people. But, yeah, all you really have to do is, like, do a little Google Search. And chances are good whatever marginalized group you're looking to learn from is out there somewhere. [00:45:43] Speaker A: Yes. And a curiosity, I think, is the key. It's probably. It's one of the traits I hope to develop most in my own children. I'm a mother of four, and I'm like, I want them to experience growing in the fruit of the spirit. But I want to add curiosity, like, be curious, like, ask good questions. Ask, like, why is that happening? Why. Why is that happening? Because nothing is ever as black and white as we think or as our own people groups tell us that it is. It's just not so simple. So ask. Ask good questions. Yeah. [00:46:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, Mindy, I didn't prep you for this question, so sorry if you have to think on your feet. But as we get to the close here, I want to encourage people that are listening to take whatever their next step is in advocacy. Right. Seeing other people learning, getting involved. I know that there you've talked, you've mentioned multiple times that this. This work has changed you. It's changed your life, like, for the better. But we also know that it's super hard. I know you've said that empathy feels hostile to majority groups. So if you could leave our listeners with one thing, maybe that you think they might face, like, a challenge and also what it is, like, one of the best or your favorite things about it that, like, keeps you going, will kind of do the balance there. [00:47:06] Speaker A: Yeah, gotta have some balance. I think the hardest thing for me personally, it might not be for everybody, has been feeling misunderstood. You can often just get labeled as divisive if you do this work. And that is, like, very hard for me. I. That's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to bring unity. But in reality, what's desired is this false unity where there's the semblance of peace. There's actually not peace because we've drowned out the voices of the margins, which is nothing like Jesus. So I think that the pain of feeling misunderstood is when I wrestle with a lot. I have to find a lot of just grounding and who it is. I know that God says of me and the fruit that I see of my. Of the work that I try to do imperfectly, that matters. It just matters. So I think that is a hard thing that a lot of people express, feeling misunderstood. And then the most beautiful part is that when you start on this journey that, like you said, never ends, you get to encounter other beautiful human beings that have caught a glimpse of the brown skin Nazarene Jesus, not this white Jesus. My friend calls him Josh. We laugh a lot, like, oh, that's Josh. That's not Jesus. I don't know about. I don't know about Josh. Like, it's very, very funny. But also like, wow, we have a problem with some of this. But once people get a vision of following Jesus, yes, that's beautiful company to keep. Like, the margins are the best company to keep. So you're gonna have naysayers, you're gonna have people who. Who misunderstand you, but you're also going to be surrounded by other people that are like, hey, we are kind of just messily following Jesus together. We're trying to be honest. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:22] Speaker A: And we're trying to deal with the pain that causes our neighbor suffering. And that. That's where I want to be. That's where I want to be. That's where I want to be all day, every day is just with the scrappy people that are like, we're just trying to follow Jesus. We're not interested in Josh. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will say, too, at least in my own experience, because it is. It's hard, especially when, you know, relationships that have mattered a lot to you become severed or just are different. I do feel like. Not in a replacement type of way, but I do feel like God always brings in other people to. To feel like family, Right. To. Whether it's on the Internet or it's in your church or in your neighborhood or however it is. Like, there are so many of us out here, like you said, doing this work, that I think when we can find each other, not that it fixes any heart wounds necessarily, but it's enough to keep us going to remember, like, oh, I'm not absolutely off. Like, I haven't taken a wrong turn. This really is loving. This really does help me to love God more myself, to understand who he is, to understand his nature and his character. And while it can feel lonely looking at relationships that maybe we wish were different, I have also experienced love in a way that I never had before from people that are not technically family, you know, but. But feeling loved by them in such an incredible way that can only be explained as, you know, God's love through them. [00:51:07] Speaker A: So it's a beautiful thing to behold. It's a picture of. Of new creation, I think. Yeah. [00:51:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. All right, so last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How does incorporating advocacy help us to become the church to the people around us? [00:51:24] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. I think a Couple things. When the church becomes a safe harbor for people, that is the church at its best. And so if the church, broadly, imperfectly, because we're all people, but if we can learn to be safe people, aware of the suffering around us. Read the room, don't be tone deaf. People like, like in your own community around the globe, like just being people who are aware of what's going on in the world, being informed, being that safe harbor, being mindful. The ways that we speak about more marginalized communities that will, it will be like a refuge. It will be like people want to come to that. I say this a lot, that the world longs for a church that looks like Jesus. And what if we showed up and tried to follow Jesus in our churches? I think people would want to be there. [00:52:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:34] Speaker A: But when we show up and we're, we're struggling with maintaining the status quo, if we're speaking up against injustice or for naming things vulnerably for what they are, if we fail to include people who have been pushed out or who have not given a voice or our microphones in our churches, people don't want to be a part of that. They don't want to be a part of that. And so I think that the more the church becomes a safe place that is informed, people will come. People will come and not come as in a building that comes to the family. I think there's a lot of people on the margins and the fringes who are like already trying to follow Jesus. They don't associate with the church currently because they don't feel safe in our spaces. And that's their God given body telling them they don't feel safe. They better listen to that. [00:53:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:27] Speaker A: Being safe, it's going to draw people in. And I know I've said this a few times, but I think it's important for us to continually refocus as Christians, Christians that like our job as Christians is not to be perfect people. Our job as Christians is to bring healing to the world and to partner with God in restoring things. So just looking around, what needs restoration, where is there a lack of flourishing around me? Like that's where I need to be as a Christian, not as a fixer, but as a learner. [00:53:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:59] Speaker A: And it's going to do a transformative work in all of us. So I'm preaching now, Kristen. You got that? [00:54:04] Speaker B: I listen, I'm like, go, go, go. [00:54:08] Speaker A: I almost wore my listen to women preach shirt today, but I thought, don't be too extra. [00:54:14] Speaker B: Next time. Next time. Yeah. And I just want to encourage the people that are listening as well, who maybe feel overwhelmed by this whole conversation or the whole idea of trying to get involved. Like it can start with the smallest, smallest step. There's a big difference between welcome and inclusion. And so who has been welcomed into your church? As in, the doors are open and they are allowed to step their body inside, but then no one speaks to them. Like when you look around and this can be in a church, this can be at your kids school, this can be in your office. I mean truly, this can be anywhere. But like if we will step outside of our bodies for a second and look around and just see who is not being invited in to the conversation, who is not, that is, I think the first step in learning to see other people getting brave enough to maybe make ourselves a little bit uncomfortable, to care for someone else. And, you know, it's building blocks, baby steps. We start to make little steps and then it gets easier and easier. So it's possible, change is possible. [00:55:21] Speaker A: Yep. We just start with one thing. We love one more person. We look in the eye. I think it was Mr. Rogers mother who, who would say that when we see somebody crying, we don't look away. Like our society tells us, look away from the pain. Don't make them uncomfortable. Don't make yourself uncomfortable. But no, look people in the eye. Look at the suffering in the eye. Nothing can be healed if we won't look at it. So it's a really good challenge for all of us. Yeah. [00:55:50] Speaker B: Mindy, thank you so much for being here, for sharing your heart. I am zero percent surprised that you said you used to be a pastor, because I can. It just comes out of you and everything that you say and put out on the Internet how much you love Jesus and his people. So I'm just, I'm super grateful for you being here today. [00:56:11] Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks for being a safe place for hope. It was a blessing. [00:56:20] Speaker B: My encouragement to you now is to pray about your next move. How, how can you break out of your comfort zone, out of your own lived experience to see someone that you might have overlooked before? How can you show them where God is already with them in their circumstance or in their situation? What can you do to let Jesus love other people through you? It could be as simple as reading a book or listening to more podcast episodes to educate yourself. Maybe it's engaging in a conversation with someone, someone that you don't naturally gravitate to, or looking an unhoused person in the eye the next time you pass them Maybe you're ready to take what you've learned and you can start to help inform other people by leading a group or a book club. Maybe your next step is getting involved in a local shelter for marginalized people. Group, whatever it is is between you and God, but I'll be praying that you rely on the Holy Spirit within you to be brave enough enough to take that next step. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep becoming church to the people around.