Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machar Young, and I'm so glad you are joining the conversation.
All right, welcome back to becoming church. I'm so excited to have Ben Kramer with us. He is an actual pastor in Idaho, but he's also an Internet pastor to so many of us. Ben, welcome to the podcast.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Oh, it's so good to be here.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Did you know you were my Instagram pastor?
[00:00:56] Speaker B: No, I had no idea until just this moment. So I'm very intimidated.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: No, listen, just add that to your resume. I guarantee you I'm not the only person that would consider you an Instagram pastor. Does.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: That's a. That's an honor.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Just give us, you know, the bullet points.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah, bullet points. So, born and raised in Idaho, never went off to seminary in Kansas City, felt the call to be a pastor at seven, but was in the kind of fundamentalist evangelical context, and then discovered the wesleyan tradition through the Church of the Nazarene. And that's where I got all of my education.
And then during all of the things that happened in 2020 forward, I found myself in the United Methodist church, which is where I'm pastoring now in Boise, Idaho.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Okay. And I would say, and we're going to get into this.
So what denomination did you grow up in, first of all?
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Non denominational. Oh, yeah. So it was just a.
Non denominationals can be kind of unique in their own way, that they'll follow a particular tradition, obviously. But yeah, I started out very fundamentalist and then kind of moved to evangelicalism, like middle school, to high school, and then to the church of the Nazarene as a senior in high school.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Okay. And then to the Methodist. Because that's different. Right?
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, church of the Nazarene is technically Methodist cause they broke off from Methodism and so.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Right. There's a whole split, right?
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Yeah, whole split in every church, even non denominational churches have had.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Oh, for sure.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: All right.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: We can, we can get to all the denominator stuff afterwards. But I have to tell you, I've been following you on instagram for a while, as I said, because I was drawn to not only what you write about, but also the style in which you write and tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be that you have like equal parts compassion and conviction in your words. And I wonder if you do this intentionally or if exhortation is just like one of your spiritual gifts and you lean into it, or how does that come about?
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, gosh, I don't think I've heard it articulated that well before, but that definitely is my heart behind my writing. And I think, you know, in trying to understand that approach, I think it's because of my background. I'm, I'm speaking to a lot of the people that I was raised by and that the tradition that I was raised in. And so I know the authenticity and kind of the passion behind those beliefs that maybe I don't even agree with anymore. But in, in my call as a pastor, I feel very much coming alongside people rather than in correction, even right and grace. But knowing where they're coming from, I think, really shapes my writing with the utmost compassion because I want to be heard, but I also want to enter into conversation. And so that dialogue is such an important component of writing to me, and so that's really what shapes my attention behind that.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like we'll have to catch up. We'll have to swap stories.
The similar, where I grew up, you know, always been a Christian. I was not called to pastor until, I don't know, four or five years ago, and then I fought God about it for a really long time before I finally came in.
But I understand this idea of coming from, like, very fundamentalist ideologies into a faith that's changed.
And I noticed this makes more sense now. A lot of times you start your posts with, like, dear Christian.
And so that makes sense because now I'm like, all right, I know the audience that you're kind of speaking to, do they know that you're speaking to them and what is their response?
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah, so I do that intentionally because, you know, and I've gotten a lot of flack for that actually, from people actually within the more progressive side of Christianity.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:05:11] Speaker B: And, and mostly because, like, they will say those people aren't Christians. And I disagree with that. You know, like, you can't, you can't look at all the disciples that Jesus had, like, from Peter to Simon the zealot to Judas, and say, well, one was a real disciple and one wasn't right. Like, they were all trying to follow Christ as faithfully in their, in their own perspective as possible. And so I, I feel like part of the, like, navigating this discourse that we have within Christianity and our culture right now is understanding. We are one body with just so much diversity, and I am equally capable of becoming an absolutist and a rigid legalist in my own perspective of theology, just as anyone else along the spectrum. But we're all christians trying to work this out together. And so that's, I'm hoping, because I'm speaking to myself, like and former self the most.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: But also people in the tradition that I know best, which is fundamentalism and evangelicalism, and hoping to be heard somewhere along the way using the words that helped me come to the point of where I am today.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Well, and that's, I guess that kind of compassion and conviction is. I can tell. I can see your heart of wanting to help people to understand, not, you're not going, hey, you're wrong. But I see it very much as a, there's more to this. There's actually more to learn and more to think about. And so you're kind of trying to pull them along.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Because the depth that I feel like I've discovered in my journey, I wouldn't ever want to go back to the kind of the superficial perspective that I had before. And so my, my hope is that we can travel deeper in this faith while following Jesus together.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Do those people listen? Do you think they listen? Like, have you had, have you had conversations of, like, hey, you actually did bring me out of a superficial faith into something deeper. I mean, obviously all credit to God. Like, I'm not trying to be heretical here. You know what I'm saying?
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like God is, like, especially through the psalms and the proverbs, you see this pursuit of wisdom is very central to God's character. Like, she is crying out in the streets. Right? Like, and so if we're pursuing that pursuit of wisdom, that's our hope to enter into that dialogue together. But I've noticed it's not going to be in the comments. Right? It's not. People are going to be reactive in the comments. They'll send you direct messages, though, like, I'm really struggling with this, and I think that's why I love my newsletter the most, is because I, you know, I had an 80 year old woman from, I think she was in Nebraska or something, and I'll never forget it about how, you know, we had been entering into this conversation and it's not an instantaneous thing. Right. And she said politically, so opposite, very much like how I was raised. But now, because we had been entering into this kind of pastoral conversation, she is starting to see things very differently. Right. And I point to my own dad, even as one who, you know, my family were very much a part of that tradition growing up, but now they're members of my church, and that.
That dialogue and debate, like, calling. They've had to put up with so much. My parents are incredible people, and they've had to put up with a pastor as their son. Right. But, like, I'm in seminary, and I'm, like, calling them and, like, what the heck did you. You taught me this, and I'm learning this. Like, explain yourself. Right. They're like, you were just doing the best we could. Right.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: And that's.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: That's really what has cultivated that heart of computer passion. It's like, oh, you know, my parents were really trying to be as faithful to their. Their walk with Christ as possible. And so it's like I need to simmer down and see that this is going to be a longer journey of wrestling and discovering things together.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: Yeah. As much as my friends and even our church likes to make fun of me for how much I love social media, but that. And I do. But that's truly why is because I.
I really felt like God was, like, one of the places you're going to pastor people is on Instagram. And it happens, like, the DM's, the theological conversations and things that are happening in my Instagram messages. I'm like, God, what are you doing?
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's because people are looking for discipleship, and that's such a safe place when you feel like you know the person. And I. Sometimes I feel like I'm discipling more through, you know, Instagram or Twitter than I am in. In my day to day life. Right. Because you have to set up a meeting and, like, do this one on one thing. But Instagram, you're just, like. You're able to meet people in their most vulnerable moments sometimes. And, like, that, to me, is just. It's such a gift. It's just those moments.
So I instagram so well, by the way. Oh, gosh, I'm just all words, so I'm, like, hiding behind my screen. But, like, your video and just, like, out there, you're doing it better than I am.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Listen, I'll take just a couple thousand of your followers if they want to jump over.
Come on, guys. Come on. You can follow both Ben and me. It'll be amazing.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: It'll be a great time. Yeah.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: No, I was going to say I feel like you have a success story, as I'm air quoting, when it comes to coming out of maybe one kind of faith into something else. Right? Growing it into something different. But there are a lot of people, and I would say a lot of our listeners find themselves in this boat of going, well, Ben, that's really cool that your parents could see it your way and that you could call them and talk about what you learned and that now they go to your church. But for a lot of them, it's not the same. I've talked to a lot of people who actually, their parents almost get defensive or reactive, and so they feel like they can't have these faith conversations because it just becomes a conflict where they can't even dialogue or engage. What would you say to people who feel like they're there?
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that is the hardest part. I think of especially the moment that we're in, because there are times like, let's just say in the nineties when things weren't as polarized and divisive, where it feels like you could take the time to have these conversations. But I think there's an urgency around religion and politics right now that it's just like, huge things are happening. And so we need to make these decisions now. And so, like, there's, and there's a lot of truth to that, too. But I, you know, what I keep going back to is Jesus walked with disciples for over three years, and they still didn't get it right. I had a pastor friend who calls them the duh sciples while he's preaching sometimes, because it's like, duh, come on. Like, you, you see them see Jesus in flesh and blood, and you're still not getting it, you know, and scripture.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Like, lays it out, and they did not understand.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: They did not understand, right. Jesus in the flesh and blood, explaining himself to them, still not understanding. Right. And so, like, that does, that's helpful in two ways. It gives us grace. Like, okay, I can, you know, I'm still on this journey of discovering who Jesus is. I've never, I'm never going to arrive. But three years with people like, I think that's such an important part with our friends and family, those who are closest to us, like the disciples were to Jesus, that we need to take this time to cultivate our hope and our patience. Stanley Hawerwas has a great quote on that where he says, hope and patience define the prophet in contrast to the cynic and the zealot. The cynic has.
Has so much hope for the world that they, or, sorry, the zealot has so much hope for the world that they threatened to burn it down to achieve that hope. Right? And the cynic has so much patience that they've just run out and just start critiquing the world and. But never pursue that hope. Right. But the prophet is holding patience and hope in tandem so that they hope for the world, but they have the patience to see that that hope fulfilled, even if it isn't in their lifetime. Like, that is such a challenge for me to, as we have this prophetic work being done in the church, are we holding hope and patience in tandem? And I may have butchered that quote, but I feel like I got the heart of it there.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: You got the heart of it. We can look it up. We'll link it up somewhere. We'll look it up.
We can swing from one side to the other, right, where we have to really just find ourselves sitting in the tension and going, we cannot have just one or just like, it's not one or the other. And I think that's where we've kind of run ourselves into trouble, is going, it's black or it's white, it's this or it's that. We're actually, like, we can hold multitudes friends, like, we can hold both of these things at the same time. You know, we have to have the hope and the change and the compassion and the conviction.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Right, exactly. Exactly.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Have you always seen your faith in this way and talked about it this way or did something, no change for you?
[00:14:43] Speaker B: No, I was definitely, I was definitely the zealot in my faith. And I think that's why, you know, I see the harm that it can take. Like, I was the college student, you know, theology students are the worst, especially first year. Like, I'd come in there, I know all the answers. Like, the teacher doesn't need to tell me what the Bible says. I've read it cover to cover, you know, all those things. And I was like protesting stuff I didn't believe, like in class, raising my voice just like ardent, that there is one right way and I know it. Right.
And so over time, I think understanding the complexity of our faith theologically and philosophically, but also understanding, like church history, which equalizes everyone. Right? History, just like, points out, if you're willing to listen, points out the places in which we've all fallen short in our journey of faith. We have 2000 years of learning lessons of how not to be the church and how there's faithful expressions of that. And so I think it was through that journey that I learned deep, deep humility, that the mystery of God is not that God can't be known. It's that God is infinitely knowable. And the moment I arrive at saying, I know all of God and can now impose that on others, I've made God into my own idol, of my own beliefs. Right. And so that. That just has really, I think, been one of the biggest transforming moments in my faith. As I studied who we are as christians, as I gotten to know Jesus better in my own life, like, it has just given me this deep humility of how I need to approach my faith first so that I can then enter into conversation with others better.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the way that you described the mystery of God, you know, it's not that we can't know him. It's that we can't ever fully know everything about him and what he thinks. And it's that perspective shift, which seems maybe so small.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: I think for a lot of us who grew up or maybe had these fundamentalist type beliefs, it's that we were certain, right? Like, we knew this is what's right, and this is what's certain, and this is what's true, and we will fight for it because that's what faith is, and that's what being a good Christian is.
And the more I walk away from that and go, like, oh, I actually don't know anything. Yeah, I think. I think I know things. I think I know what the scripture means, but it could mean something else. I think I know what God believes about this, but I could be wrong. It's like, I've found him to be bigger and more complex, and I have a deeper relationship with him. The more I'm able to let go of my certainties.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Right, right. Absolutely. And, like, don't we see that? Like, I think the biggest. Obviously, this is going to sound like the Sunday school answer, but it was Jesus that changed all this, because it's like. And Philippians two is, like, my all time favorite portion of scripture, because you have this cosmic, all knowing, all powerful God becoming a human being, born in poverty and becoming the most humble version of humanity, not just a human being, but the humble version. And this God, this person, knows it all and responds in parables. Like, rather than giving straight answers about all these complex things, he invites others to contemplate with him about this and to enter into stories, make themselves the character of the story, of the parable. And, like, how would you define neighbor in this situation? Right. So the God of the universe, all knowing, doesn't even approach God's own understanding of things in an absolutist framework. And so those who call himself themselves disciples, I don't think we should do that either. Like, that trademark humility is what should be at the forefront of our faith as well.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Well, again, I think, again, like all these, it's. To me, everything is just a slight. If we could just do the slight shift, that changes a bunch of things, right?
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: So even in the idea of Jesus coming in, he was the main character, but he always still pointed to God the father. Right. And that's us. As Christians, I think we forget that maybe we're the main character in the story of our own lives, but God is the hero. Like, we are the one going, okay, we're going through the story, the problems, the solution. Maybe our lives are about us, but God is actually the rescuer. He is the hero in this story. And I think it's easy for us as christians to go, no, we're the hero. We save the people, and we evangelize and we do the things.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I just. I forget who it's who said this, but I was reading recently that there's a difference between a saint and a hero. The hero sees themselves as the center of the story, and the saint is always pointing to Christ as the center of the story. And so that distinction is just so, so crucial in seeing your own life with God as well, is that, like, Jesus came to reveal God, to point to God in everything that. That Christ did, and that's what we're called to do as well.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. All right, so, Ben, besides being my Instagram pastor, I would also consider you an author because you are. You are putting out, like, legitimate words all the time.
And again, on social media, you know? Right. The assumption is, like, oh, you're just doing things to get likes and to get comments and get views and blah, blah. And there is some truth to that. Listen, come follow me, guys.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: It's okay.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: You can't.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: It's good.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: But, however, I know that that is not why you're doing this. So what are you hoping people take away when they read your words?
[00:20:40] Speaker B: You know, I've. I feel like I'm just as surprised as anyone else that they want to listen to me, you know? Okay, subscribe to my writing and things like that. I. I can't not be a writer, and so I'm just putting things out there because that's how I. I feel like I'm processing my faith as well over these really difficult things, and I want to join conversation, and writing in our technological world is one of the best ways I feel like we can do that.
And so I think what I hope is that as I'm finding my voice to speak on these things in my role as a pastor, that others will also take that same approach. And they say, oh, I was not able to put this problem into these words. You've given me the vocabulary to say what I feel like I want to approach this. And then I'm able in my role as a teacher or as, you know, a maintenance, whatever role that they're working in, they're going to go. And then being able to articulate their faith better with their friends, their coworkers, their family, as we're all trying to work together to be unified in where Christ is teaching us. So that is always my number one goal. If I people follow me on twitter, they'll know that I'm like a chronic deleter because I will post. Yeah. And it's because of that. Like, I will read something, edit it over and over and over again, post it, and then I'm like, you know what? I don't like the heart that, that conveys. And so, like, even if it's been retweeted, how many number of times? Like, you know, in an hour or so later, I'm just like, that is not sitting well with my spirit. And so I will. I used to have a better habit of, like, only posting on Thursdays after I've prayed about what I want to post. And so, again, trying to practice that patience because I can see any story just like anyone else and be reactive to it. But I think good theology happens after moments of discernment and prayer and contemplation where we're not reacting to things but we're responding to them. There's a huge, huge difference there. And so that's, that's my heart and what I hope people will, will take away from that as well.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: Yeah. There was a phrase going around for a while that, like, silence is compliance. And I think that forced a lot of us to have to respond and react and say, yeah, all the things about everything that happened.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: Everything. Right.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: I just. God, like, I think it was. I had to delete something. I've probably had to delete multiple things, but I remember having a moment with God and he was like, no, ma'am, you're going to sit now. Like, you no longer get to write in post. You write and you draft it, especially if I have any kind of emotional whatever to it. And there are things that I've finessed and re put up and there are things that just get deleted because stay there. Yeah, there's a difference I think especially as pastors or I would say even leaders in general, like, it's one thing to have a place to process, but I don't need to, like, bleed out in front of people. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't need to, like, here's all my emotions and all my issues and all of my over really big thought and oversharing right when, like you said, the point is to kind of model and encourage for others the way that they can do the same.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Right. Well, and especially as a, you know, a white guy pastor from Idaho, there are some things that I need to platform other voices, especially like my sisters who are pastoring. Like, they can speak on issues that I can't. And so as, as the platform continues to grow or whatever, like that is continuing wrestling for me, is like, am I platforming voices rather than being compelled to speak on it myself? Because, like, who needs another white, past white guy pastor speaking on these issues that other people are? It's just more like there, it's their own personal experience. Like, yeah, am I showing, you know, a light on that rather than trying to just show my own light on that issue?
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that's actually the perfect segue because I went to sign up for your newsletter and actually, I think I got so distracted by what we're about to talk about, I don't even think I ever put my email in. So I need to go back and finish doing that. But I went to sign up for your newsletter, and I was surprised to find this very long letter. It felt like where you wanted to explain some background things, and I got caught in that. So in a nutshell, there was a pastor in your community who preached a sermon that, and I quote, all queer people needed to be executed. And that sermon went viral.
And I think that you had a similar response that many of our listeners probably just felt right in this instance. And hearing that, whether it's anger, disgust, a deep sadness, you know, that people are being this hateful to others in Jesus name, but you actually took it farther with action. And so will you just tell us a little bit about what you did and what led you to taking those steps?
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that moment really proved to me how important it is to have good colleagues in ministry. I'm part of an interfaith coalition here in Boise that has rabbis, Zen buddhist priests, several episcopal priests, like, so the kind of the gambit of faith leaders in the treasure valley here. And so as soon as that went viral, one of the leaders of that group recommended that we have something published in the Idaho statesman, like the main paper. And, you know, so we were right along with that, we helped. You know, we drafted a letter condemning this hate speech and showing affirmation and support to our LGBTQ siblings here in Boise. And that led to one of the most beautiful moments I think I've had in my ministry in the United Methodist Church so far, where a LGBTQ teen at Boise High read that and said, there's a safe place in the church to have this conversation. And so then we had a panel of faith leaders that I was able to be on and over 35 LGBTQ teens who felt, like, threatened by, obviously, by this pastor's words. And that wasn't the first or the last time this pastor had said something. It was the first time that it went viral and that caught the attention of other people. Right. So literally discipling his congregation in those ways.
And so we were able to sit and hear the hurt and personal impact of those teens as clergy, as faith leaders. And we've had ongoing conversations since about making. We're one of the only churches that is affirming in the greater Boise area. I think there's just, like, there's two that I know of, and we're one of them for our LGBTQ siblings of faith who want to come and worship feeling like they can do so safely but also feel fully welcomed as well. And so it was a profound shift for me in so many different ways, coming from another denomination that was, they are kinder in their approach to their non affirming stance but very similar feelings towards the queer community.
And so it felt like a moment of repentance for me and a lot of the theology that I had held and a lot of the things that I had said in the past. And so every moment is a moment for advocacy, but also repentance in the way that I see it as a pastor of, like, where have I contributed to this in the past? Because if we're not asking those questions, then we don't really have the permission or the right to call for repentance from other people. So this ongoing repentance is a journey, I feel like. And those moments were profound for me in those ways.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: I don't think I would have assumed repentance in this moment for you, but I can definitely see how I'm someone that's prone to shame, and I can sit in shame. And when things get pointed out, I mean, similarly for me, my thoughts, my beliefs, whatever, on LGBTQ community has changed drastically, and I can sit in the shame of that, of the things that I used to do or that I used to say.
And that's something that I really have to take to God, and I really have to actually, like, look at my own life now and go, no, no, no, it's okay. Like, yes, repent, maybe, for the things that you said or did that were not actually loving and did not reflect Jesus toward other people who were created in his image.
But it's very hard for me sometimes to have to break out of that and to go, no, look at your life now. Look at who you love now. Look at who you are doing life with now and you're in relationship with now, you know?
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And there's always a text message or a conversation to be had, you know, that I've had such fruitful dialogue with those that I had said things to, that I knew in my mind that I had consistently felt. And I feel like there's a good distinction between shame and guilt. Right. God doesn't deal in shame, but we can have some holy guilt over things that we've done. It just, what are we going to do about that? And those had been some of the most fruitful conversations where I came to them and said, I said this, this and this and this, and the Ben that I am now would punch that Ben in the face.
We're saying those things, and just to come and say that, I'm sorry. And those conversations have been so beautiful and healing. And so, yeah, I have a tendency. I'm a professional ruminator, so I can ruminate in things that I've done constantly and just sit in shame, but really trying to be proactive. I'm like, okay, what am I going to do about that? I know that God doesn't deal in shame. Let's see how we can proactively repair and heal to bring about new life.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and sometimes the apology is not an option. I mean, there are people that I probably owe an apology to. I live in a completely different part of the country now. Like, I don't know how to go find them. I don't know the people that I said something to, you know, that I wasn't even aware at the time, but it's that, you know, better, you do better things.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: And now I'm like, now my friends, my neighbors, the people in my church who are on the LGBTQ spectrum, like, how am I going to love them now? How am I going to do better by them now? Not just on Sundays, not just at church, but, like, in life exactly.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Oh, that's so powerful. Yeah. You know better, and you do better. You know, you should trademark that phrase before someone.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Pretty sure it's been used by about a billion people. Already been.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: But just trademark it. Be the first one. There you go.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Well, and I think, regardless, my hope would be. I'm not gonna say my. I think my hope for anybody that's listening, for anybody that hears this story and finds out about what happened in Idaho is that regardless of what people believe, regardless of their thoughts, you know, where they land on the LGBTQ beliefs, faith, whatever, it is very, very clear to me that you did a very brave and kind thing to love other people the way that Jesus showed us. And so I just want to affirm that in you and encourage you in that. That I can't imagine God responding in any other way other than looking down at you and the other faith leaders in your city and going, you have. You've got it. Like, you did it. You figured it out. I'm so proud of you. This is what it's about. Loving people that are overlooked, seeing the unseen. And so let me just. In case you have not been told this, you know, 100 times, I'm sure you have. That's a beautiful thing that you guys did.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: I really, really appreciate those encouraging words.
My heart just continues to yearn, like, in a place like Idaho that, you know, very publicly is opposed to the LGBTQ community legislatively.
And it feels like, in so many ways, the church has just. Is, like, 40 steps behind in just treating that community with dignity, kindness, and respect. And so, you know, my heart is really to show light on those who are in need of healing and restoration, especially within that community. So, yeah, I appreciate your words.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and if we're going to heal people and we're going to undo damage, let's do it in the church. Hello.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: Amen. Amen. Is it. Wait, isn't that why we're here? Like.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Hold on.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: Wait.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Actually, I love your. Wait till I tell you what our church's motto is, because your church's motto is, all means all ours is hope for all.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Right? Because we are very much the same idea. Right. Like, the gospel is for everyone, not just people who believe like we believe.
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Exactly. That's incredible. I love that we're twins almost.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: I know. I love it. Sibling. Sibling journey.
[00:34:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. For God so loved just christians.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: That he sent his only son.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: Only the white people in the south.
[00:34:30] Speaker B: No, only Americans.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: Yeah. We could play this game forever, all day long.
Well, for us, hope for all. We are a very multiethnic church. I mean, I was telling you before we started recording, you know, our pastor is Pakistani. Like, English is his third language, and so. And he's married to a white blonde lady. And so, like, racial diversity is very, very important to us and always has been. But hope for all takes it to a whole other level, where it's diversity of thought, diversity of politics, diversity of lifestyle, like, all of it.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: How do you see all means all lived out in your church?
[00:35:09] Speaker B: Gosh, I see it in so many ways where, you know, coming from the church that I was into, where I'm at now, like, there is just an explicit openness to welcome. And, like, you know, as a pastor, like, you can preach all you want, disciple all you want, but if the community around you isn't practicing those things, that all means all things is just going to be a bumper sticker that doesn't really mean anything, right? And so I just see that from the younger to the older generations in. In my community, that they are practicing hospitality, welcoming, and that ongoing dialogue. And in a place like Idaho, not to get into historical weeds, but Idaho was a satellite for the Confederacy during the civil war. And so, as the war was ending, a lot of Confederates kind of moved to Idaho, to a place called Silver City. And they were establishing so much of a presence here that Abraham Lincoln had to establish Fort Boise just to get a union presence here, because the confederacy was literally trying to take over this place for a white dominant, agricultural, limited government state. And, like, we're still living into that. Those values legislatively, in many ways. Our church, for example, had a stained glass window with Robert E. Lee in it. And it was founded in 1872. Our church was.
And so, like, we just had that removed, donated to the Black History museum. My senior pastor, Dwayne, did incredible work navigating that. That issue, you know, during all of. All that was happening in 2020 and 2021. But, like, that confederate white supremacy legacy is very much a part of Idaho's presence and past. Like, we'll have the Anne Frank memorial vandalized by Nazis every year. Like, it's just a stop it annual thing. It's just the way that, like, Idaho, we had the aryan nations in our panhandle for years, you know, and, like, 3000 neo Nazis from all over the nation would come to Idaho every year until it was, you know, shut down through, like, the best story ever. You can look it up online, but they had to give it to native Americans. So the whole property, I love that story so much.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Incredible.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: But because of where we are, like, my friends of color feel unwelcome here just by the sheer culture of Idaho. Right.
I've had friends of color move here and then quickly, like a year or two later, feel like they need to leave because of the culture that's been developed here. And so, you know, our demographics in our churches and church staff really reflect the demographics of Idaho. It's like, it's 95% white here in Idaho. And so, like, we trying, trying to be ethnically diverse is one of the most difficult things. But God has really answered those, those prayers recently. We have a whole congregation of Karen refugees from Myanmar who escaped the war. Boise, on the other end, has been one of the number one sanctuary cities for refugees because of the things that the Boise local city has done. So we have a korean congregation and we have an african congregation that just signed on to worship in our building to give them space to worship in the ways that they've been called to and raise money for their own building in the future. And so that's kind of the ways that we're trying to practice all. Meaning all in the culture that, that we are as, as Idaho and trying to change those things.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and I would say, so how. How do you do it? Right. I know this is a very weighty question because people, I thought you were.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Going to tell me.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: People ask us all the time at conferences. They're like, how do you create. Or people will come to visit, right? Like, we'll have pastors come and visit on a Sunday or just kind of come around. And that's always the first question is, like, how do you create this kind of community? Like, how do you create this? And we're like, I don't know. Like, we just.
I do know. I was going to ask you the question before I told you what our answer is. Sure.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, okay, so this will be a test. You tell me if I'm right, we'll.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: See whose is better.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Well, I think my response to that is, we don't create it. Right? If we really do believe that the Holy Spirit's at work, it's the Holy Spirit ongoing movement that's creating these opportunities, and we need to be aware of those opportunities and walk through those doors that God is opening. Right. Because if we're not looking for the opportunity to become more inclusive, to become more welcoming, we're not going to take the little opportunities that come with the still small voice saying, hey, this is the place that you need to walk. We're not going to be listening or walking in those ways. And so then we're not going to achieve those things in the ways that we can in our context. And so I would say it's more stepping back and letting the Holy Spirit bring those opportunities about and then just saying yes, but also actively looking for those opportunities in your context as well, because I know that every context is different in Boise. I'm not going to be able to have the same kind of ethnic inclusivity as perhaps you do. Right. And so pursuing the opportunities that I can in however ways that it looks, trying to be faithful to that mission, I think, would be close to what I would respond. So now you tell me.
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I would say very, very similar.
We are very much of the mindset that we create environments where people can see God speaking to them. And it's about that we're going to steward, well, the people that walk in our doors. And whether it's, it's your first time or you've been here for 18 years or somewhere in between, you're going to get treated the same. You know, you're going to get not just the coffee and the high and the whatever, but like, it's going to be more than a, hey. Hi. Like, let me actually engage you in conversation. Let me bring you into the family, because we want to create an environment where you know that you're safe so that you can show up fully, so that God can meet you here. Because God was already actually with you in the parking lot.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So, good.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: But now if you come in here and you feel safe enough to experience him, then hopefully that's what you know.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it really is part of not assuming, you know, their needs. Right. That's like such white savior complex is like thinking, oh, I know how to help you. Really. It's listening to the communities that you want to be the church for and then saying, how do we become a community that meets those, those tangible needs? So that's such an important angle to that.
[00:42:17] Speaker A: And again, even the tiny shift. Right.
[00:42:18] Speaker B: Of tiny shift.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: We want to introduce people to God here because we believe that he already knows them.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Instead of that, it's we want to create an environment where they can hear him, like.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: And those tiny little words change our mindset. They change the way we approach everything, the way we view people, you know?
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely. So good. One degree of difference can make a huge, huge impact.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: It really does. It really does.
[00:42:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:45] Speaker A: All right, Ben. Well, one last question. Because the podcast is called becoming church, what is something that our listeners can do to become the church to the people around them.
[00:42:56] Speaker B: Gosh, that is a huge, huge question. Become the church for the people around them.
I think we have such a ripe opportunity as christians to look at the ways, because church hurt is an ongoing conversation. Right. It's become a very public one. And so I think that, to put it in the simplest terms, look at the ways in which the church has hurt us in the past, individually, and then go be a source of healing for that hurt for others. Because I think no matter where a person is in their journey and no matter what generation they're from, that church hurt is there a, um. And we're all kind of in this reckoning of who we are as christians, where we're going in the future. And so just being a source of that healing and joy, uh, I think, can really embody what Christ is hoping for in the church. Moving, moving ahead.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: I just love that you use the word joy. I think so often when people talk about church hurt, we just picture, at least I do this just like broken, sad, depressed, lost person, which sometimes is true.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: But sometimes they're just doubting and questioning and not sure where they're landing yet, and they're.
[00:44:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:16] Speaker A: There can actually be joy there, too, you know?
[00:44:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm finding more and more because I am man. I am the Soren Kierkegaard existentialist that can just, like, stay in my dark place. No melancholy is holy, okay? Leave me alone. I'm going to be an emo in the darkest. That's how I'm gonna be in enneagram four. That's exactly. I have a four wing. I'm an enneagram five with a very strong four way.
You sound like my wife. She's like, oh, my God, going four again, you know?
But really, like, I'm finding that happiness is circumstantial. Right. But joy is this conscious choice of, I'm going to move forward and look at the places that are healing that have been healed, look at the places that are going well in the world around us, rather than doom scrolling all day long on our devices, like, where is joy? And how can it be found? And then how can I be a source to others in my christian walk as well? And that's been really transforming for me in my own joy and seeing that flourish in others, too. Yeah.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: I think. And not being afraid to bring it ourselves, you know, we are salt and light. We are the salt and light. So if other people out there have hurt, like, we don't have to worry about saving them, but we can come in and be salt and light and just make things a little bit better.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and I, and I know you've probably experienced this, but when I hear, like, there's so much healing that can come from a pastor saying, on behalf of the church, if you haven't heard it before, I am sorry. Like, there is no excuse for how you were treated. There was. There's no excuse for how you were minimized. Your voice was silenced and pushed aside when you were trying to express a deep wound and you were either pushed out, marginalized, or just belittled and gaslit. Like, there's. There's no amount, like, of joy that can come from hearing a pastor naming those things and saying, I'm going to try to be the pastor that you deserved in that moment, if you'll give me the permission to be alongside you and listen to that pain so that we can process it together. And I'm going to do my best to listen and to bring healing rather than tell you where you're wrong and silence your voice and move along.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I think in a very.
In a very vulnerable admission, I'll say one of the hardest heartbreaking things about being a pastor is knowing that I have probably been the cause of someone else's church hurt unintentionally, same.
And again, back, circling back, I can sit in the shame of that, and I have found myself sitting in the shame of that.
And so instead, I have to know better and do better. And just like I've publicly apologized in sermons before for the same exact reason where I'm like, there's too many people feeling hurt by the church in this area.
So I'm going to apologize. I'm going to see you, even if I wasn't the one that did it, because for all I know, I need to make an apology to a different person because I'm somehow part of their church hurt unintentionally, and I may never even know it.
[00:47:37] Speaker B: Right. Oh, that's so powerful. Yeah. I think that is a big part of why I write, too, is because it's this desire to see where I have participated in that. And like that, I feel like that is the call to repentance, is to not sit in this shame, but to look at how you've participated in these things that you know better now and then try to bring healing to those spaces. Like, that's just the heart of that work.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, Ben, this has been such a delight. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:48:10] Speaker B: So same time next week, right? We'll record a new.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
I love being able to connect with other pastors and faith leaders and people in our country who are serving their local churches and loving people like Jesus, not just on Sunday mornings, but out in the community. If you feel like you are lost and you are floating out there somewhere without a church home, because you cannot find your people or people that are representing God and Jesus the way you wish that the church would, can I ask that you please keep looking? I promise that there are more and more of us out there. And if you can't find anybody local to you, reach out to us. Reach out to me. Reach out to Ben. We will do what we can to connect you with other pastors that we know who are out there loving people in the name of. Of Jesus who are out there becoming the church friends. Thanks so much for being here. We'll see you next time.
