Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Jen Suan Chen. Before I even get into my conversation with her, I want you to take a deep breath and let go of whatever you're holding on to, or at least as much of it as you can. Because even just in Jen's voice and presence, she's going to bring the peace and the calm of God into your ears and maybe even a little healing into your heart.
Well, hello Jen. Welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Very excited to have you.
And I know we chatted a little bit before, but do you want to tell the world your very exciting news that you have?
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Well, we welcomed our first granddaughter last Monday, so she is a precious gift and there is nothing like it that is so fun.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: And so now you've added a grandmother to your all of your titles, which.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Feels, that feels really old actually.
But such a privilege and gift.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Yes. Do you know what your like grandmother name will be yet or will you let your grandchild decide that?
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Well, in, in Chinese we there's names for like the maternal side, grandmother and paternal side. But because my kids are biracial and my kids are also third gen Chinese Americans, my daughter in law is white American and so she said we'd love a Chinese name. But so I decided to go with Popo, which is actually a maternal, the maternal grandmother. But my daughter, I have one daughter and she said I really love that my kids wouldn't have to call you, you know, another name than the boys.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: So we're going to go with Popo, which is I was very close to my popo, so that's very special to me to be able to carry, carry that name.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Oh, I love that, Jen. All right, well, so you are also a speaker and a leadership coach about to be an author. Is this your first book that's coming?
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Is my first book. Okay.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: So yes, we're going to go ahead and give you the title of author right now, even though the book this week, I'm holding it in my hand. So that definitely.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: But you are also a spiritual director and I have heard people talk about spiritual directors before. Will you explain to us like, what exactly does that entail?
[00:02:49] Speaker A: That's a good question. I think the word director gets a little confusing.
I am not directing our time. Holy Spirit is.
I think there's been a phrase used often like A sacred companion kind of alongside for the journey.
Spiritual direction really has its roots just in. In for hundreds and hundreds of years, I think, in. Especially in.
Yeah, maybe more. The more contemplative period of Christianity. And this really is coming in again, I think, as people are trying to figure out, is there a space for me to process my relationship with God.
And so I describe myself kind of like a spiritual midwife.
[00:03:36] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Like just kind of alongside, just to bear witness to what is going on, stirring in your heart.
Each time I meet with someone, it feels very sacred.
It's all about whoever's in front of me and listening together.
And I think there's a place to hold questions, a place to wonder, a place to be silent. Sometimes I'm quiet with someone for 30 minutes, and there's something about a shared space, knowing someone's holding that with you, where you can just be with God and listen.
And so my questions are around just what is stirring? What are you hearing?
How might that relate to.
But it feels like a.
A spacious space.
[00:04:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: Maybe what spiritual direction is and can be.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds really lovely in my brain. It's like a cross between a pastor and a therapist, maybe.
Is that kind of accurate?
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So I. There's been a lot of moments where people have said, you need to go and, you know, become a therapist. And I.
Well, one therapist would require me to just stay in one spot. Like, I could only serve my state, you know, the state where I live in. But for spiritual direction, I can serve globally, and which is what I do now, meet with people all around the world and.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that is really cool.
I can imagine, too. I know you're. You're in it to kind of help people and walk them through their own processing and their own faith journeys. But I can imagine as you're talking to people from all over the globe, how that would also shift your perspective, maybe in the way that you see.
I mean, Christianity, faith, all of it.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Right.
Absolutely. I'm so blown away. As I hear people articulate. I think one thing is that so much of the stuff inside is, like, stuck, you know, how. How do we articulate our faith journey? The stuff that impacts our faith, the questions we have.
And as I hear people from all different ethnic backgrounds, nationalities process their journeys with God. I'm so amazed at the things that make us so similar and the ways in which our culture also impacts the way we experience God.
[00:06:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: We have a very diverse church that is one of the. Where I get to pastor. It's called Mosaic. And I Think the last time we checked, There were like 27 different countries represented in our congregation. And our church is not all that big. And that's something that I love too, is when we're prepping for messages or even afterwards hearing different people explain, oh, well, my experience of this story in scripture had always been this, because of my culture and getting to learn from each other. And it just like opens your eyes to so much more.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Well, you are the author of a book called Dim Sum in Faith. I'll hold it up for everybody that's watching on YouTube. And it comes out this week, which is very exciting.
So even though we have a pretty diverse listening audience, will you explain what dim sum is and how it inspired you to write this book?
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. So my parents migrated over from Hong Kong, and dim sum is just a. It's just a way of eating in the Cantonese culture especially. And so it's. It's how I grew up as a second gen Chinese American.
My parents had come in the 60s, and then I was, you know, born in the early 70s. And it was a way in which we gathered. It's around a round table. It's lots of small dishes. Back then, this is pushing around carts, and you get to pick and choose, which is every kid's dream. You get to pick what you want for lunch.
And there's everything from, you know, chicken feet to egg tarts to, you know, egg rolls and d. And it's just this mix of sweet and savory and. But it's something of a communal experience. It's collective. You eat around a round table and dishes piled high. I think it tried to describe it in the introduction, and I think as. And it's messy. It's messy and it's loud and it's awkward. And from start to finish, I mean, at least, you know, as a kid observing. And then now as an adult, it's my favorite place.
So I think, yeah, dim sum is. When I think of a table, the best kind of table to be at, that's the table for me.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: And we're gonna get. We'll get more into the symbolism of the table. But I do want to know practically, what was your favorite thing that you chose as a kid? And then what's. What would you choose now as your favorite as kind of the food is coming around?
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Well, my favorite as a kid was the barbecue buns. And they were steamed.
They're white, steamed, fluffy, and then inside pork. They're wonderful.
I think as an adult now, you know, an age where everyone's cutting back carbs. I still go for that because that is just dim. So it's just all about the carbs. As you should. It's perfect.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:53] Speaker C: I love it.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: How about.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Was there anything that you ever had to eat or that you were like, oh, I really don't want to choose this, but your parents maybe said, jen, come on, try. Try one of these.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: So my family mom was just try. But you don't have to like it and you don't have to finish it, which I know is, you know, was unique. So we weren't part of the clean plate family.
Also encouraged not to waste, but just to try. So I think chicken feet were probably.
I tried. And maybe it was the texture. Maybe it was being eight and thinking it was so weird that we were eating this.
It stuck somehow in a very childhood memory. And. But my kids love it. They love it. And so I. I think it probably has to do with the fact that I thought we were just a strange family because we were just one of the only Asian families in our community.
Okay, okay. So.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: So it was loud and messy and different, but you did absolutely love it.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Listen, isn't that life, though? Like, some of the best parts of life are loud and messy and unexplainable?
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Well, how do you see. Do you see faith that way? Like, do you see faith as a whole that way, or your relationship with God as, you know, loud and messy and different?
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Absolutely.
I think the longer I walk with Jesus, I'm sure of certain things.
More sure than ever.
[00:10:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: And then there's some things where I think, oh, I wonder why that was so important and why I let that be to take up so much space. Like, I tried to figure it out. And I think God is more mysterious than I have ever known him to be now for me. And I think. And yet I love him, and I have experienced his love for me in deeper and richer ways than ever before. So. So yes and yes.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes and yes.
Have you always had, Jen, a strong sense of God's presence or. Because you talk a lot about God's presence in. In the book. Is that something that you always kind of naturally felt, or was that something you had to teach yourself to see?
[00:11:11] Speaker A: You know, I think there's this.
I think kids can accept the fact that God is real and present and with them easier than maybe adults. Like, I think if you grew up in a place where you're told, like, he's here, and you're just allowed to ask questions and you're allowed to even experience it. So I think kids hear from God. I think kids were made to just hear from God. And I think it's adults that begin to say, oh, but he doesn't talk like that, or he doesn't appear like that, or he doesn't move like that.
Now there's a shaping that's important, but I think there also.
I think as a young.
As a young child, God gave me an early faith that just was able to receive it, that never questioned. I don't think I've ever questioned the existence of God, but I think that there's been times where I've wondered about his nearness and where he is.
So I. So I think faith has always been a part of. Of my story, but in terms of the depths of it and experience of it, God's nearness, God's presence, I think more and more as I get older, but I think it feels more childlike.
Okay. As it is emerging. So it's more. It's more like, yeah, the grace to just trust him as a kid would.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Like I'm just gonna let all those things.
Yeah. I'm gonna let some of the things I don't understand just be.
And then I'm gonna press into the. What I actually really know to be true.
And I. This has been a season of really hearing from him and experiencing his love and just getting back to.
Yeah. If you think about Jesus's invitation was really for the kids.
If you can't be like a child, then the kingdom isn't for you. Right.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: So that is the journey for all of us back into childlikeness of faith, where we know we're loved and that's the place we start.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: How would you.
I was a kindergarten teacher for a long time, and I love kids, so I just love that whole thing you just did. My heart is just like, leaping.
But for somebody maybe who struggles to tap into their inner child or, you know, maybe they grew up believing in childlike faith, but then as they've gotten older, they've kind of.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: With.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Whether on purpose or accidentally kind of put God into more of a contained box, how would you suggest they go about kind of like freeing him and get back to that childlikeness?
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a good question. I think that's the journey we're all on, isn't it?
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: I think, you know, one. I think finding someone to come alongside you. I don't think we can do this on our own.
[00:14:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: I think a place where we can ask the question, you know, so when I say that faith has always been part. It's. It's a wrestle. Right. So it's not perfect faith. Right.
So the seeds of faith is what I write about. Place so early on and nurtured. But there's this. How does it grow? And I think the fear that we have to follow God perfectly, that some. We are still somehow believing that many of us are still believing that we earn our faith.
[00:14:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:41] Speaker A: And we earn his love. And I think if this going back to childlikeness, a child that is so securely attached just knows she or he has left.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: Right.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: So there's this sense of like, yeah. Why wouldn't I bring my. My beautiful, crazy. This drawing I made. Isn't it amazing? And it's like a round circle and two arms that come out of the head and two legs that come out of the bottom. And it's amazing. As a parent, you're like, that is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.
That is how God sees us.
And I think we need people who will, who. Who experience that, who know that, who can come alongside and say, I will be with you until you get back to that place.
And I will trust that God is faithful and I don't have to.
We don't have to force our faith.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Like, I think there's so much of this, like, it's intellectual. It's up here. We're so good at saying following God. One, two, three ways to love God. You know, one to ten, this is what we do.
And I think the mystery of relationship, I mean, if we think about just how it is in marriage or in a family, like the mystery of how love is grown and formed and. And blossoms and the ebb of ebb and flow of relationship. Yeah. So I think to the person who is struggling, I want to say the Lord, we were loved first, and he loves us more than we could ever imagine. And I long for you to find someone safe to walk with you till you get there again and you will.
To hold out faith for one another. Right.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: I think that's important.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: I love that you said, you know, we need to do this with other people and we can't do this alone. I was reminded recently, just through, you know, we had some friends show up with us, show up for us in a really, really hard time. And I just kind of had this idea of like, it's actually friends, the people that used to be strangers who show us how God chooses to love us. Because, you know, and I have a family that loves me and I love my family. And so it's nothing against them. Right. But like, in a sense, they don't have a choice. Like, they kind of ask and love me because they're my family.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: The people who were once strangers and choose to love us in that way that really shows us God's choice to love us and to create us and to be with us.
And so, yeah, when we can model that for other people, I think it does bring freedom and permission and maybe helps people to understand God's love in a.
In a new way, maybe that they've never been taught or experienced.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Do you think that we still have, going back to that childlike thing, a picture of God that like, he's a punisher, you know, trying to like, catch us and give us our consequences? Do you think that plays into. Do you see that playing into people's faith processing?
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think culture has a lot to do with it. I think we think about Western culture, there's a way of looking at it where it's guilt, innocence.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: And so that, that kind of plays into our faith as well. Okay. Even the idea that I'm a sinner saved by grace, like even the way people say we're just all sinners. And I think it's true. It's true that we. We.
Yes. And yet we have been redeemed and he is reconciling all things to himself. And the blood of Jesus was enough. Was enough, Is enough, is still enough. So I'm going to preach here. So I think that there's this idea that I still have this.
I'm still bad and so I still need to work hard. And I don't think we realize it that. I mean, I grew up in an era where that was definitely the message within the church, just the earning and the legalism that comes in of needing to get God notice me and get God to love me.
And so I'm going to work really hard. Yes.
[00:18:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: You mentioned Western Christianity. Is it different like in Eastern Christianity? Is there another version of God that is not the way that, you know, the American Christians really do? Like, we want to work hard and earn that. Is that universal, global, or is it really more like the Western American church?
[00:19:10] Speaker A: You know, it's hard to put it all in. Into boxes, but these are just maybe perhaps frameworks or worldviews. I think shame. So I don't think any of us have the corner on how we see God is maybe what I want to say. But I think shame is a big piece I think in Eastern culture and I write a lot about it. I think shame is, you know, from the beginning in the garden, shame was there. So it's not. Nobody has a corner on it. But I think shame is a way.
I write in my book how there's so many ways to describe shame in Chinese, the Chinese language alone.
And some of the shame is it's not just individual shame, but it's like you're bringing shame on our family and on our community.
And there's something that is, you know, I think as a kid I thought that was just horrible and I don't think it's amazing, but I think there's something about this collective piece where we.
I take responsibility not just for myself, but also for my community.
[00:20:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: So I think when I think about faith, that if shame is the way in which Satan wants to just cause us to go into hiding, then community and light is the way that invites us out. Right where it's love that invites us out.
It isn't going to be a force like you're forced to come out, but this invitation, like God in the garden with Adam, this. Where are you, Adam? I miss walking with you.
Yeah, I loved our talks, but I think when we hear the. Where are you? I think we hear this punitive like a parent. But if you think a parent in his most loving, in her most loving state will be like, honey, where are you?
[00:21:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Oh, I want, I. I want you to come out. You don't need to hide. Actually know where you are anyways. I'm actually not looking for your GPS location because I know exactly where you are.
But I think shame just causes us to go. So I think to your question, I think our culture is definitely.
We're reading scripture through our cultural lenses. We're experiencing God through what we know to be. And I think it's just broadening out. When you think about kingdom culture, what does that look like in the kingdom? What does life in the kingdom look like? And I think we're just on. All on that journey, aren't we? We are discovery.
[00:21:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Thank you for explaining that.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Think.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Speaking about shame, you know, it's not easy or comfortable to talk about a lot of times. But you said in the intro of your book, actually, you said it's important that we pay attention to our hearts, especially when life feels uncomfortable.
And I know for people that maybe are not super in tune with their feelings or never really have been, that can feel super scary.
So how does somebody start to begin to do that?
[00:22:13] Speaker A: You know, I think I write a lot about the presence of God and I think not the presence of God may not always feel safe to people. It might feel scary, might feel.
So I want to say just in God's presence, we, I think perhaps like you said about how others come alongside and reflect God's love, having someone alongside who can hold that with us, to mirror back in the flesh, what does it mean to be loved? That God, God loving someone, loving you through someone else. So I'm going to keep going back to that. Having someone alongside is so, so, so important and, and I think it's different. I think therapy, you know, therapy is really important and I think it's, I am a strong believer in like going to a place where you can look back, especially in the past and how it impacts us in our current, who we are.
But I'd also, in addition, you know, I think a spiritual director or a friend, a trusted person who's not going to just say to you what you want to hear, but, but will also be quiet, who can hold a listening presence and ask with you, like what I think and even if you're just at home listening to right now, you just even asking God like, lord, would there be a story that you'd want me to remember that relates to maybe how I'm feeling right now?
And I think the ordinary moments actually are the most just there they can be these really sacred, worshipful moments with God.
[00:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: So I'm at the store and I have this disproportionate response to someone, something I see or experience. I'm in the car or having a moment with my spouse or my, in life.
Sure. And if with this practice of reflection, it's like, oh, where did that come from? What just happened is something we ask in our family, like what just happened? That like something crossed your face, the cloud settled and just this like what happened?
And it's not that we can do this all the time, but I think in a moment where we just say God, is there, is there something that you'd want me to know?
And I think we can trust God. We don't have to remember everything.
I don't think we need to remember everything all the time.
But I think when we ask God, I think there's this God, would you come in and show me?
Would you help me make a connection?
So my fear, the fear that just like came over me like a wet blanket that feels like four year old fear. But I don't, you know, and many of us wouldn't name it like that. We Feel justified or we feel like, well, of course you feel fearful, but if there's like this.
I write about compassionate curiosity. Just like I wonder, oh my goodness, that's like 8 year old me, 14 year olds. Like I just got to high school, you know, Jen, and she just showed up and she felt really insecure.
[00:25:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Didn't know she was still there.
And then just experiencing like God, just saying I'm here.
More true than that is that I'm here because really it's coming back into. It's not just like, let's go do story digging or storytelling. Right. But it's like bringing our whole self, which means all the parts of us.
A friend of mine talks about how, you know, God is the shepherd. It's like he, he's going after all the parts of us, the parts we've deemed unworthy. Ah, right.
That little, that younger version of ourselves that perhaps we've just said she doesn't belong, but she still shows up. And I'm not talking about, you know, in a crazy way. I'm just saying, just we're honest and some of you are thinking, what is she talking about? And that's okay. But I think this idea, we, if we're honest, we all know what that's like.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: To show up in our adult self, but really feeling feelings that are reminiscent of a long time ago, we have.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: To be willing to admit that those feelings are there.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: You know, we have to be willing.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: To say, like I said, what. Just what happened. Acknowledge that something happened and then be curious about it. I think it's a.
I almost have to think of it like a humility posture. Even when it's just me and God and nobody else knows, you know?
[00:26:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Some of the hardest questions that I write in my journals are like, okay, God, show me where I might be wrong about this. Because I'm pretty sure I'm right. So will you show me. You show me where I'm wrong about this or will you show me what I'm not seeing? Because I think it's really easy. And I'm. I'm just going to be honest with you, Jen. I am thinking of a couple of specific listeners that I know listen to this podcast and I know have experienced church hurt. And this is their church. They listen to this show and they trust me and they trust my guests, but they are very hesitant to go back into a church like institution or community. And I never want to rush them into that.
But I also wonder, and I would also gently challenge them to think through, have you allowed God to show you kind of like his side of the story, not the other person's side of the story. But I know it's easy to get in our brains of like, no, this is what happened, or this is what the hurt was, or this was the experience when maybe if we ask God, he could show us something else. Is that kind of what you're. What you're thinking?
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
As someone who has experienced deep, deep church myself, and I've watched horrific stuff from a child's perspective and then up until my early adult years, and I've witnessed it just, you know, take out people and it could have taken out our family.
I want to say I'm just sorry. Yeah, I think that we are.
Yeah. I wish.
I think I was with some friends from the global church recently, and one dear friend was that we were just in prayer and he said, you know, the bride of Christ isn't yet pure.
It's not pure yet, and there's a lot of pain. We're all caring and we're not reflecting the Lord as we ought.
[00:29:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: So I want to say I'm sorry. I think that the Lord can hold us in that place. And maybe more important than just going to church, it's like, I would just want to say, are you connected?
[00:29:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: To someone else who knows where you are and will not let you go.
[00:29:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: And who will pray for you and walk with you.
I think that that's what we need more than anything in these days, don't we?
[00:29:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Well, and I think I'm so glad that. That you're on to have this conversation, because I bet for a lot of them, like, maybe a spiritual director is where they need to start. Someone that you know was not part of a past church community is not trying to get them into a current church community.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: So I'll drop some links in the show notes for people to explore about possibly working with you or someone else.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: That would be great if that last.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Part was for you. You know who you are. And, yes, I know who you are, too, because you've trusted me with your stories. I am honored when you share your church hurt and experiences with me because I know it can be painful and lonely to walk away from something that once meant so much to you. I don't take it lightly at all that you are still here and still listening. My DMs are always open on Instagram @KristenMockler Young. And I've also linked up how you can work with Jen Su and Chen as a Spiritual director, if that feels like the next step for you, whatever that little voice is telling you in your mind or in your spirit, don't be afraid. Afraid to follow it.
Your book, Jen. Back to Dim Sum in Faith. It has four parts and it starts with shaping and looking at our stories to see how they've made us who we are. For you, as an Asian American woman who bridges cultures, what was it like to connect with like your generational stories?
[00:31:17] Speaker A: It has felt.
Boy, it has been a journey that just continues. I think as I. It's required honesty, it's required humility.
It's required space to just weep and hold.
It has.
It has been this experiencing God's compassion and love.
I think as a little girl, I remember thinking like, lord, did you.
I mean, I hate being this different. And did you really forget if, if, if. The way we speak about Western Christianity will often begin theology, like at the Reformation. Right. So we'll just begin like it, faith. All my seminary training, theological reflection began like in that era. And I thought, no. But Christianity went to lots of different places before.
And if. So I think that it's been a tie together of like, we were not a forgotten people.
The Chinese, even though it's an ancient civilization and recognizing the grace of God in bringing people who knew Jesus into.
To share with our family many generations ago, I think that it is.
Caused me to just put more stuff into the I don't understand box, you know, And I just am like letting that go over there like we can. If it matters still, still to me when I get to heaven, we'll just have a combo with God. But I'm just gonna put that over here. And some. I dare not even ask someone because I'm afraid they'll just try to make me feel better. And some of it is just grief. So I think there's been a lot of grief that I've held ways in which I have because I was so I think we're all trying to survive as kids, all of us are.
But I think those of us who come from our more families are more recent immigrants. It's even more.
And you're just trying to survive. So I think with that you're turning your back a lot of us in some ways in order to survive, returning her back to a culture that we would have loved or would have been strongly connected to had we not had to move across waters or cross land.
So I think there's grief there.
And in the re.
Discovery of like God reflected in each of us in unique ways and in. Through our cultures. So all of that.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: There's all of that. Just all of that.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: And Right.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: For. For people like me who do not have maybe a different culture that we had to. Were trying to bridge or maybe felt like we had to kind of move away from.
I know there's a lot of talk about immigration right now and migrants and people from different cultures, you know, all coming together and being here and conversation.
Is there anything that people like me can do to see people with. With different backgrounds that we can, like, acknowledge and help celebrate? Like, what can we do?
[00:34:37] Speaker A: There's so much. Kristen. So much we can do.
I think one reading about experiences is really good.
Written by authors from different cultures. I think that allows us to walk in someone's shoes.
[00:34:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: I think meeting a neighbor. I think we all have neighbors that are different than us meeting them.
Taking time when we're out at a grocery store, at Costco, or just out to see. To enjoy.
Go and enjoy food from another culture. I mean, this feels really basic. But I think when we say, I have a friend who is.
That becomes personal.
[00:35:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: It becomes something. I think. It's not theory.
It's real.
[00:35:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: And when we can go to a church service in another language. Oh, my goodness. When I go, I can't. I. I mean, having served overseas for a long time, but when I'm back here, being able to go to different places in different languages, I think there's this. There's this something that rises, like, I want to sit with you in heaven. Like, there's something that just. I think God just grows our hearts to just.
I. I think with our kids, like, as we were raising them, it's just like, ask God to show you his heart.
His heart is bigger and wider and more loving, way more loving than we could ever imagine. So I think that's where we have to. That's where our conversation has to begin.
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: Clothed in love and humility.
[00:36:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: And just experiencing the humanity of another person.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: Yes. There's nothing like it.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: Well, is it. Was there a story, Jen, I know you said there was a lot of grief, a lot of sorrow that you kind of had to sit in, but was there a story, as you were kind of looking back, that God maybe brought to mind, that was a surprise of, like, joy or a reminder of him being with you that you had forgotten about maybe until you started to look back?
[00:36:44] Speaker A: So many stories. In fact, someone just asked me that same question. I think all I can re.
All I can say without just. Just rambling on about the Stories, I think, was just that. I think I. God just made me realize, like, he was there all along. Yeah, he was there all along.
[00:37:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:05] Speaker A: When I was trying to figure things out.
Kurt Thompson, an author and, you know, speaker, he. He says that kids are excellent observers and terrible interpreters.
Right. So we're experiencing all this and we're observing things, but we don't actually know what's happening. And adults aren't always, like, saying, here's what happened, honey. Like, I wasn't actually that angry, but all you see is, like, angry eyes or whatever it is that we're experiencing. So I think going back as an adult into stories with the Lord and with my spiritual director, it was so.
I just think there were moments where I felt like I was just like an observer on a story.
And I. And I asked God to show me where he was.
Where was he? Even in the hardest, like when I found out that I was eight and something horrible had happened, where was he?
And I think I was so surprised that God wanted to show me one and then two. To discover that he. He was there.
[00:38:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: And it did bring some healing.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:16] Speaker C: Even.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Later.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think when we get to tell our story to another, you know, if we say. I mean, even just over lunch, you get together with a friend and you're like, tell me what it was like at 10. Like, tell me what. What middle school, which nobody wants to go back to, but what was that like? Or what was the table like for you?
[00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: What's one piece of furniture that you remember that if you could have today, what would it be? So I think there's ways in which we get to share, and it's interesting. Like, I don't have. You have to be a therapist, like, off. Be a part of that healing process for another person.
[00:38:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: As we listen.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: That's beautiful.
Well, in. In part two of the book, you talk about undoing things.
If someone that's listening finds themselves in some kind of deconstruction space, is this where you see them? Or is undoing a little bit different?
[00:39:16] Speaker A: I think undoing is that space.
It's all of it. It's what some might call the wall where the ancient saints might call the wilderness the dark night of the soul. Yeah, I think it's any place where we find. Which I think we spend a great deal of time in this space for. Honest.
And I think that in a time of where deconstruction can feel scary.
Let me say it again with God and with another, it's gonna be okay.
God, would you show me ways in which I believed things about you that aren't true?
[00:39:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Things that I need you to heal in the very foundation of my faith. Is there something that needs to be removed and replaced?
But I think when we try and do it on ourselves and we just want to check the whole thing, I say to please don't do that.
But with God and with someone else, like, we'll be okay.
Yeah.
[00:40:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: And that is a process that I think.
I hope everyone does go through. I think in undoing, deconstruction, unlearning, relearning, it's all very important.
[00:40:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:33] Speaker B: Instead of just taking what we were blindly given, you know? And a lot of that is great.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: And it did set us up for a foundation, but some of us, it's a shaky, cracking foundation. And so the undoing is important to really, like you said, see who God is and where God was in a sturdier, stronger, more true way.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yes.
Yeah.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Well, Jen, the last two sections of your book, you talk about awakening and remaking.
And in my mind, maybe explain these to me, because in my mind, I feel like I cycle through these two stages, like, maybe for the rest of my life.
[00:41:11] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: But I'm like, is that the goal, or are we supposed to move into, like, remaking and then stay there, Unpack that for us a little bit.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: Oh, Kristen. I think this idea is. It's a cyclical journey. It isn't linear.
So I think we want prescriptive. This is how. And I want to say, like, my book is just a descriptive, like, maybe, perhaps.
[00:41:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Could it be that your journey could look a little bit like this?
[00:41:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: Here's a little framework, maybe that maybe you can begin sorting the seasons of our life. But we're going to be. We're going to keep going. I think we're continuously being shaped. I think we will continuously experience undoing seasons. I think God will awaken when. When we think of spring, there's an awakening of the earth. Right. That begins to bloom. And then there's this. We all love summer, don't we?
[00:42:04] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: But I think there's this remaking that he will continuously. That's the journey of his transformation of our lives, of who we are. That I think we. We think about our faith. It's not about information, but it's about our formation.
[00:42:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: That's good. So that's what it is, is that we are being formed continuously into his likeness and for his glory. And that's his promise to us. That's what he'll do.
[00:42:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: I have to remember all the time, like, if I ever get to the point where I think that I've arrived or that I know it all or I have finally, like, reached that end point that I probably do need to go back and start over all over again.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
[00:42:50] Speaker B: That's not what it's about, you know?
[00:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that the season aren't just so, like, just one season at a time. I think there's this remaking and there's this awakening, like this. This dance that we do. And then there's also the questions that linger. There's this undercurrent that requires our attention and to go back to, like, oh, where did that shape? Like, I think we could be in all of those seasons, perhaps all at once.
[00:43:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: I'm glad you said that.
How for people that you mentioned earlier, you know, you've got your things that you don't understand that you kind of just put aside for God. Like, maybe when you get to heaven, you'll ask, how did you find peace in being okay with not knowing certain things?
[00:43:39] Speaker A: I think it came out of, like, long seasons of the practice of solitude.
[00:43:49] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: And being with God in disquiet spaces.
[00:43:53] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: And then being able to also find others who also were okay holding that. So as I began to. I think we can't. I think if we think about. We're. We're heart language learners, and so we're just so going to people who are where I notice, like, oh, I really love the way in which your faith or the way you live can. What is it like? I think as a learner, I'm just always.
I'm. I'm attracted to people who have authentic faith.
[00:44:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: So I think I've always carried around a little notebook, like, especially in my, like, you know, my early years of ministry was just like, tell me what that's like.
You know, how do you walk into a space and, like, stay really grounded? How do you love people? And when they're someone's like, oh, I actually am not very loving. I'm like, you're not? Tell me, you know, like, tell me what that's like. And how do you hold that? How do you. And so I think that's just been this. I've learned so much from men and women around me who are also walking out their faith in this way.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. Just don't be afraid to ask questions. I think we all. We don't want to feel silly or we don't want to feel stupid, even maybe. And so we don't want to ask a question that might seem obvious, but oh, my gosh, how much more would we learn about each other and ourselves and God if we were just willing to think like, how did you do that? How are you patient with your kids?
[00:45:26] Speaker A: Yes.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so freeing when we can just say that.
[00:45:33] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: Well, Jen, because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:45:44] Speaker A: I love that question.
I think every day just ask God to help, you know, his love.
[00:45:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: And even help him to help you love yourself. Scripture talks about that.
To love the Lord, your God, and your neighbor as yourself.
I think we. I think as we let him love us and then become this conduit of love out to the world. I think it starts with small and perhaps people might think insignificant, but I would say so significant.
The way we live, the way we interact with one another, I think that's what we're churches.
I think it's the way we live, it's the way we speak at home.
It's the way we. We text another person and we say, hey, I. I saw you.
I saw you come in to church and leave quickly.
I just want to let you know I saw you.
[00:46:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: And I'm here.
It's. It's saying, I don't have an agenda for you, but I want you to know that you're loved.
I love it.
[00:46:55] Speaker B: I love it. Well, Jen, thank you so, so much for being here. I'm going to link up your book, listeners. I encourage you to go get it. And especially if you're like, huh, that doesn't apply to me in my life and I can't relate, then I definitely am going to encourage you to go get it and read it and learn about Jen and her culture and.
[00:47:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: How your own story can form your own soul. Jen, thank you so much, so much for being here.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: Thanks, Kristin.
[00:47:27] Speaker B: Can you imagine how unified we'd all be if we lived with no agenda to change or constrain or to convince other people of anything?
As much as my heart really is for everyone to be in a faith community, that's not the goal of Becoming church. I always want to invite you into the conversation, even if you don't believe, think, or agree with me. And I hope that as God shapes your hearts, as you listen, you also become people who are little safe havens walking around for the people around you. If you know someone who feels like they don't have that opportunity. I'd love for you to share this episode with them as a way of letting them know that you see them and that you want to include them in what we're doing here. You may never know why God brings someone to mind, and you don't really need to know why. But do trust that little nudging when it happens. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
