Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I prayed a prayer and I said, God, open my eyes to see people the way that you see people. And that's what started everything. That's what changed everything for me.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Playing hide and seek with like a little like, you know, six, seven year old girl, just like between, you know, the sleeves.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: It's a fire hose of information. At times it was a fire hose.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Of emotion and you're just kind of like weighing the options and trying to figure out which one. And then, but the lines are moving and then suddenly that person goes on lunch break and now that other line just got long.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young and my guest today is Liliana Reza. Liliana is the director of Borders Engagement at the United States and Mexico border through World Relief. I met her last year when I got to spend a few days in an immersion experience at the border where we learned and experienced it from both the US and the Mexican side. I invited her on today to share a little bit about that experience as well as what we learned there.
Really that was my starting point about moving from the care of people toward education and action regarding immigration. There is so much more that we just didn't have time to cover in this conversation. But if you get to the end of this with more questions or you want more resources, please use the links that Lily provided in the show notes for or reach out to me at Becoming Church tv.
Liliana, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Now it's you're in California, so it's early there. It's early there. What do you have ahead of you for your day today?
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Well, my day already started. It's actually started at 6:30 this morning.
On Wednesdays I actually start my day significantly earlier as I meet with people that are in the east coast on our team first thing in the morning. So I'm already been working for a while and I will continue to do that.
Yeah, I'm already ready for lunch and I'll be ready after this. Probably a second breakfast or lunch or something.
Awesome.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: When you said you woke up early, I was like, oh, maybe today's a running day because you're a runner, right?
[00:02:20] Speaker B: I am a runner. I haven't ran today. I will be joining run club this afternoon. Well, evening. So I'm excited. I'm looking forward to that.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Good for you. It Was. Listen, it was 97 here yesterday, I think, and I went for like a walk run.
It was brutal.
It was so hard.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Honestly, I would say, especially in the summer months, it's better to do it in the morning, really early in the morning before the sun comes up or in the late evening. Like, I'll do tonight with the Run club. Yeah, it's much better. Yeah.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: I came back and immediately, like, jumped into our cold plunge like it was a swimming pool.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: That's the way to do it. Honestly. That's the way to do it. And the water here at the beach is really cold. So I always tell people, mike, if you're gonn do a run, then just be prepared to, like, do that little cold plunge at the beach. It's worth it.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah, perfect.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Perfect. Yeah.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Well, you work for World Relief, so will you tell us what does World Relief do and then what is your specific role there?
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Well, World Relief is a Christian humanitarian aid organization. It's actually the humanitarian aid arm, if you will, of the national association of Evangelicals. And we respond to disasters all over the world. That's actually what we're known for internationally and then more domestically here in the US we are known as a refugee resettlement agency. And we also offer just support to the immigrant and refugee communities specifically as well through, like, immigration legal Services. But my role is with the advocacy and policy team. So I'm the director of Border Engagement and I'm actually focused in the US Mexico area.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Okay. And we will get into it a little bit more. But.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Has your role. Have you seen, like, significant change over the last, you know, six months or so?
[00:04:12] Speaker B: That's a great question. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of shifts. I think we were expecting a lot of shifts in both administrations. We were going to. We were anticipating shifts either way and then have seen significant shifts. And we've seen that beyond policy in our communities, as I'm sure you're, like, watching the news and seeing, like, the real life impacts of that, the change in immigration policies is having in our communities and not just centralized to the US Mexico border, but in our neighborhoods and in our cities. So, yeah, there's been a lot of changes, I could say. Yes. Um, but there's also been changes here at the border, and we'll talk a little bit more about that in terms of, you know, those that are seeking asylum, how we're not seeing, you know, people come and why that's not happening. And so.
But yeah, there's been a lot of shifts and changes for sure.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Okay, well, you've already thrown out a couple of terms that I think.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: Yes, I have.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: I have learned. I'm still learning. But I know some of our listeners maybe don't know. You've. You've used the word refugee and immigration and asylum. So can you just kind of. I mean, like, we're in kindergarten. Like, give us some terms and explain, hey, this is what we call these people. And if there are terms that we're using that we should not be using, like, weave those into.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, that's a great question.
I actually think this is a great starting point to the conversation in general. And I think that it's important, first of all, for us to just be really clear that, like, people are not defined by immigration status. That's not what is the defining factor. So we are defined by the imago day, which is the truth that every person is made in the image of God. Right. That's what we believe as people of God, as children of God. And so. And then the second thing I think it's really important for us to be clear about is that the words that we use really do matter. And I think we're seeing that in real time right now.
And the way that we talk about ourselves and each other really makes an impact in the way that we engage in the world, understand the world, engage in scripture, and also just engage in everyday conversations.
So language informs. Informs us. And so we can't. Like, that is a truth.
And I think that we need to be, as followers of Jesus, super conscientious and very intentional about the words and the words that we're using, because our words are also sort of like our witness. Right.
And so what we say has weight. And we don't want to use terms that dehumanize or reduce people to what they produce or what their quote, unquote, documentation or status is.
And so I want to make those things very clear up front because it's such a key component and really, like, a good place to start as we engage in this conversation. So I have used the words of, like, refugee, asylum seeker. I didn't even use the term of, like, temporary protected status, but that's another type of. Of legal status in the United States.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: And these are all different, Right? Just for the listener.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Yeah, for the listener.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: And an immigrant are the same or not the same.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: So I think a refugee and an asylum seeker are different. Immigrants are just people that are on the move. And so I think we can use that one continually immigrant.
But I think it's important for us to distinguish, excuse me, to distinguish between refugee, asylum seeker, temporary status. These are all different types of legal, quote, unquote statuses that the US Law and international law set on people when they're seeking a particular type of immigration status in a country. So. And we won't go into the weeds, because I feel like that's a whole other episode, to be honest with you. We could spend an hour, and I know we did spend an hour, if not an hour and a half when you were here at the border, just talking about, like, statuses, what they mean, what they entail, how long it takes. And I'm happy to come back to have, like, a deep dive into that, because I really think it's important for people to know and to not use them interchangeably as they all. If, like, if they mean the same thing, because they really don't. They have different criteria, different type of vetting process.
And that's one of the reasons, I think, why it's really important for us to not use particular terms when we don't know what they mean. And just. And also, like I said the first time, to be clear that we are.
That people are people first. And so. And we believe that they've been made in the image of God.
So, like I said, I don't want to, like, do too much of a deep dive into that part of the conversation, but I'm happy to come back and definitely get into the weeds of all of that. But I think what I really do want to do is point us back to what scripture says. And, you know, scripture reminds us that we have been. We are image bearers. We're made in the image of God.
And I think that the imago day which we see reflected in Genesis really, like, shapes the way we understand and speak of people and engage in the world.
Scripture reminds us about hospitality and how we should be not hospitable, only not only with the things that we do, but also with our words. Like, our words really shape how we practice hospitality.
And I think that scripture also reminds us continually of the practice of remembrance. You know, God calls us to remember our own stories of displacement, right? Like that we've been adopted into this family. And so I think that those are important things. And then one of the last things that I wanted to bring in in terms of, like, language and what scripture reminds us of and our posture in that is encounter how Jesus constantly identifies himself with the strange.
And even how the early church was, like, constantly, like, engaged in this. And so they really lived into this community Lifestyle like centralized and compassion. And so I want us to keep that framework, that spiritual framework as we're continuing in this conversation, because I think that, you know, when we talk about terminology, we can really lean into like, you know, again, legal terms. And people are experts in this, but I want us to, as people of God and as followers of Jesus, to really keep that foundation in that center of, of Scripture in, In this conversation.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Well, I think it's as simple as you said of. Right? We want to not take people's humanity away. And so, like, I know a term that is thrown around a lot is either illegal on its own or illegal alien.
And that, to me, I would think would be one of those terms that we wouldn't want to use because it does take away people's humanity and it does not calling someone an illegal or an alien, which basically implies that they're foreign, shouldn't be here, don't belong here, or not of here. Like, all of that distorts who these people actually are, right?
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it distorts.
And. And we just have to. We are no one to be taking things away from people. And so, like, I. I think it's so important for us to, like, remember.
I keep going back to posture because it really is about being intentional about what we're saying.
And I don't want to be the person to like, do the Holy Spirit's work, but I'm really gonna let Holy Spirit, like, do Holy Spirit's work and, and the way that we like what we're convicted about and how we say things. But I think, I think that I don't personally. I mean, if we're going to talk about personal practices and things that we do and don't do, I rather, I don't use the word illegal or legal alien, but instead, you know, use.
And also, before I get in again, we're getting into weeds here. And I'm like, okay, we got time.
Because. And I. And I don't.
And I think, like I said, we could definitely do an entire episode about, like, terminology because I think that. And it's probably really important for people to take the time to learn what each term means because these, a lot of them carry like, there's so much history behind each. Each term.
And so, so yeah, I think I'll stop there just because again, I. We can get. We can get into a really deep rabbit trail, like I said. And I want to eng conversation. But I also know that you have some other questions ready for us.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Well, I will link up. We're going to talk a lot about women of welcome. But I will link up some posts of theirs and things that they have that explain.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Some of these terminologies as well. And let me just say to you, Liliana, listen, we're gonna let Holy Spirit do Holy Spirit's thing, But also I invited you in because I have, I have spoken hours with you.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: I've spent days with you.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: I trust your work and your experience. And so please don't, don't feel like you can't say things that need to be said because for a lot of people listening right now, this is their entry. Entry. Entry point. I can say. Yeah, entry point into the conversation. And so, yeah, permission.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Okay, that's super helpful. I think that that's, that's just a really helpful reminder. And I'll also, I'll share with you some resources that World Relief also has in regards to, like, both. I mean, we have online, like, E courses and different types of things for you to engage both with, whether that be like, for yourself or, like, if you want to invite your small group or, or if you're a pastor that's listening. We have, like, sermon outlines and all sorts of things that we can provide for you.
So it's a great entry point. But there's so much learning to continue doing and so happy to. Yeah, I appreciate that reminder.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Yes. All right, so we'll link all that up. Y' all can go to the show notes and click through all that later. All right. For now, yes, we'll keep on. So, Liliana, explain your connection with. With migrants, with immigrants, how this work came to matter to you.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: I. You'll hear me going back to Scripture constantly, all the time as we continue this conversation.
But I think that that's an important place for us to start. I mean, Scripture calls us to not just care about people who are vulnerable or find themselves just placed, but I think that we see in the life of Jesus this intentional proximity of wanting to be close to those that are in the marginal spaces and also to really live into loving our neighbor. And so it's not an optional thing for those that are. For those of us that call ourselves followers of Jesus.
And this is also really personal to me. And I think you heard me speak a little bit about this when you were here. And again, I won't go into super detail about my own story, but my family has an immigration story. And so when we speak about immigration or when we do advocacy or when we're doing learning experiences here at the border, I'm sharing From a place of my own heart and also a place that's a part of me.
This is a part of my family story. And so I've grown up witnessing through family, through friends, through church community, the strength and the struggle of what it means to cross borders, what it means to start over again, what it means to like, navigate through immigration systems and the unknown, uncertainty, fear.
And I say that because I think I still carry those things with me and I still carry that connection that I have with those parts of those stories with me and the work that I do so very much. This is very much personal to me.
And yeah, I think, yeah, without getting teary eyed, it's, it's very close to my heart.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and like you said, I think it's easy. Again, I always like to point out in episodes where it's easy for the listener or for me even to go, okay, well, I'm removed from this, I'm detached from this.
So I think this is one of those places in this conversation where it's easy for the listener, the outsider looking in to go, okay, well this doesn't affect me or I don't have a connection to this. But like you said, like you started with, you know, this should matter to everyone who calls themselves a Christian or a follower of Jesus because when he says love your neighbor, he doesn't mean like just the person that lives next to you. Like, you know, yeah, it's all people. And so it's not enough to be like, okay, well I'm caring about this one without carrying the weight of the entire world on our shoulders. It's also not enough to be like, well, I care about this one people group and so somebody else can care about that. No, like, we have to love all of our neighbors. We have to do what's best by everyone, you know?
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's not an, yeah, it's not an easy sort of like, you know, practice and lifestyle, but yeah, for sure.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: And it also doesn't mean, let's not go to extremes. It also doesn't mean that people have to like leave their homes, move to the border and like house refugees. Like, come on, there are steps. You know, we can care and we can educate ourselves and we can get involved without like going to the, the deep end right away.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's so many ways for people to, to respond to the calling of caring for a neighbor. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to.
Yeah, we're not all, you know, missionaries out in the world. Or however you want to frame it. But, like, there's so many ways for us to stay informed, to get engaged, and to really live a life that points people to Jesus. And so whether that's. I mean, these are probably, like, super, like, just to give you an example, I mean, it could even be like your kid is a part of the soccer team, and you've noticed that there's a new kid on the team who might be new to the community. You don't know why they're new to the community, but you see that they're having, you know, kind of like, okay, reach out to the family. You learn their story.
And I'm not saying that that family might be. We don't know what their status is, but I think that that kind of, like, again, pointing back to the words that I used earlier about hospitality, that practice of hospitality, of extending ourselves, can really help us live into this sort of lifestyle that is one that's, like, centered on loving neighbor and caring for a neighbor. And so there's so many ways that we can practice hospitality. And in that we're. We're responding and, you know, obeying this command of, like, caring for our neighbor and caring for the. The. The stranger and the sojourner. And so, like, I think we don't want to limit ourselves to think that there's only one particular way. There are so many ways for us to. And that's why that. I mean, it goes back to the practice that we talked about of keeping our eyes and our hearts open, as, you know, we're engaging.
You know, what? How do we see God moving in our community? How do we see God moving in my neighborhood? You know, how do I like keeping our eyes and asking Holy Spirit to continually open my eyes, open my ears, give me the nudge. You know, I heard a story not too long ago of someone that had just moved into a community, and, you know, she had her traditional clothing from her cultural background, like, on and just kept going to different places and felt like no one would really see her. And suddenly someone at the grocery store just greeted her. And how that really was just like, to see someone, to be able to, like, actually make eye contact and say good morning or say hello or smile can really be a, like, an open door. It could be like a little window to be able to more deeply engage in hospitality and allow the Holy Spirit to continue to.
To shape us and mold us to be more. More Christlike in what we do.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: I've said multiple times on this podcast that, yeah, yeah, it really does. It really does. When we ask God to help us just to see people and to see where he is in people.
Get ready.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's true. It's. It's about changing. Yeah, it's about changing and, like, not just shifting our perspective, but definitely widening it. Because sometimes we, like, you know, sometimes we've, like, kind of put these sort of blocks without even knowing it. We've sometimes put blocks, and it's about, you know, seeing the person and. And in front of you or beside you or.
And hospitality and the practice of just seeing can really change us.
And.
Yeah, I think when we look at Scripture, we see Jesus doing that constantly, seeing people that others didn't want to see. And I know that we can spend hours talking about different places of encounter. I mean, honestly, that's why I started with those words of hospitality, encounter, you know, imago day. Because we. Even when we look at the life of Jesus, this is what Jesus is constantly doing.
You know, getting close to the Samaritan woman. I mean, you know, getting close to. I mean, we can name and kind of go into that, but definitely we see that. And that's the. That's the. That's the command. That's the. That's what we're being invited into as. As followers of Christ.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard. I mean, it's easier to look away. Right. Which is why, actually. So I met you. We've alluded to this, but I met you at the border on a.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Immersion experience with Bree Sensorude, who's also been on the podcast, and the Women of Welcome team.
Because I just really felt like. And I had applied for trips before.
Actually, that's not true. I had thought about applying for trips before, but the dates had never lined up for me. It had never worked out. And so this was the first time that I was like, oh, this timeframe is gonna work, and I wanna go. And it worked out, and it was amazing because I really just felt like holy Spirit said, listen, I need you to. You're doing a good job, Karen, about these people, but you really need to educate yourself and know what's happening, and I need you to look it straight in the face. So will you talk about a little bit what that immersion experience is like and what. What we got to experience there?
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I think we'll start with just, like, maybe giving a little bit of background, like, of what Women of Welcome is. Is that okay? And I know that Bri has been on the show, but. So Women of Welcome actually launched in 2017, and it's actually a partnership or between World Relief and the National Immigration Forum. So that's. The National Immigration Forum and World Relief have come together and really out of a place of, like, a desire to equip and invite women to engage in conversations about immigration. And that's how women of welcome came to be. And so we've collaborated in a ton of different projects. But most recently, one of those expressions has been in border immersion, which you were a part of last year. And so border immersion really is centered on this idea and really on scripture of. Of John 1, where the invitation from. From Jesus to come and see.
And so really wanting to extend that invitation to other pastors, leaders across the country to come, see, learn, witness. Really, it's about witnessing what God is doing and the movement of God through the church and through God's people here at the US Mexico border. And so people come here from pastors from San Diego, from also from Tijuana of how they are walking in faithful solidarity with those that are arriving to the US Mexico border again on both sides. So we hear from pastors in Tijuana, we hear from pastors in San Diego. We learn about the history of borders. We learn and hear from border patrol agents. We also hear from different voices, whether that's, you know, other humanitarian aid organizations, leading voices and leaders. So it's very much a.
An immersive listening, learning experience. And it's really centered on wanting to witness the movement of God here because I think we've created some really harmful narratives about the border, about our southern border. And so what we're wanting to do through border immersion is really, you know, inform and also, you know, reshape and provide new narratives and, and kind of going back to what we were talking about, expand people's perspective and. And really just widen, you know, that conversation and help guide it as well, you know, to answer some of the questions that you had, you know, mentioned earlier of, like, okay, how do you. What do these terms mean? And what is, you know, what is my responsibility and my calling as I learn about this? And. And so really wanting to guide people and churches and that response.
So that's how we got involved, because it's a part of our partnership. And so it's. It's been a couple of years that we've been doing that now. And I know that they do that across other parts of our southern border with other organizations who we are closely connected and tied to as well.
Like, I'll give a shout out to like border perspective and Abara, who's also doing really good work along our southern border. 2,000 miles of southern border. So there's a lot of work to do. Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: So much. Well, it was a life changing experience. I will say that. It was a fire hose of information at times. It was a fire hose of emotion.
Emotions that I expected, emotions that I did not expect and had to like, try to process in real time. Real time.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Because. Yeah, I mean, but it was. But I'm so glad I went. I'm trying to encourage everyone that I know to go if they have the opportunity to go. Because like I said, it's. It's one thing to just not look away and acknowledge what's happening, but to then be able to go and look at these people in the eye and see the border for what it actually is on both sides and from, from both sides really just clears up a lot of the narrative. Like you were saying of. In my brain, this is what the border looked like. This is what it, what it meant to cross. This is how they crossed. This is who was crossing. It was particular people. And all that got wrecked for me, like in the best way, you know? Yeah, I want to. In a minute, Liliana. I want to get to some maybe mistruths that are out there that we can correct. But before we get there, I want to talk about whiskey 8 and I'm like getting emotional even just thinking about it.
And I believe you had to shut it down, which also makes me emotional. But talk to people about. So whiskey 8 basically was a place that we went to at the border from the San Diego side.
And while we were there, people came over trying to cross. So just talk about what that whole thing was and what you guys were doing.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think like you said to kind of answer the question of like, what is Whiskey? Why even came to be? You know, I think we really have to like step back. And I think it's also really important to say, I mean, you mentioned even right now when you were framing the question of like who, you know, women and children were there, it wasn't who was. Yeah, yeah. And so who found themselves like stuck between waiting in limbo.
So let me take a few steps back and kind of give us kind of like give us a little bit of context as to why this was even happening. So Whiskey is actually an open air holding site. It's just north of the US Mexico border if you're coming from Tijuana, but if you're coming from San Diego, towards the border.
It's actually on the southwest corner of San Diego. Southwest corner of San Diego.
And so it's literally right before you enter Borderfield State park, which we didn't even go into that section. But you saw it when we were in Mexico. Mexico. And I told you all about like. Yes. Yeah. So.
And again, this became a holding site or space.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: And explain that for people.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: What does that mean?
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Yes. So I'm lit. You're two steps ahead of me, and I'm already like, yes. Okay, so.
So when people come. So seeking asylum. Let me start there. So seeking asylum is.
Is a right that people have, and it's protected both by US and international law. Let's just start there. So seeking asylum is. Is. Is a right that people have. And to seek asylum in the country that you're wanting to seek asylum into, you have to be in that country.
Whiskey 8 is.
Yeah. Southwest most corner of San Diego. And then this place exists mostly between the two walls. So there's the international border, the actual international.
International border. And then there's a retaining, if you will, or like a, Like a secondary wall.
And then Whiskey 8 was a place where people were being held by border patrol agents as they were seeking asylum. So people would cross between ports of entry to. To be able to.
Yeah, they were crossing between ports of entry and then looking for a border patrol agent to like, say, hey, I'm here to seek asylum. Can you process me? And then the border patrol agents were like, hey, we don't have the staffing, we don't have the, you know, a place to take you right away. So can you just wait here and we will take you to the processing site to. For you to, like, you know, apply or be processed for asylum. And so what happened was that thousands and thousands of, like, hundreds of people were coming, you know, and I say thousands, not all at once, but like, you know, we're crossing over. And Border patrol, as they were crossing between ports of entry, people were being directed towards Whiskey 8. And people were being asked by border patrol, hey, I need you to wait here and I need you to just wait and we will come and pick you up. And that waiting was not like, I'm, I'll be back in five minutes. It was like, I'm waiting for hours, for days without shelter, without food, without access to water, without.
And I mean shelter as in, there was like, you're out in the middle of nothing, there's no covering.
It could be cold, it could be wet, it could be dry, it could be hot. And just depending on your, like, sort of like the weather, it could be really cold at night. This is, like, close to the. I mean, it's. It gets really cold there late at night, early in the morning.
And so people were stranded. People were stranded between the walls as they were waiting for border patrol to come and pick them up and.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Let me stop you really quick. So the people that were in there, they're literally between two walls aft. Once they'd crossed the first wall.
[00:32:22] Speaker B: It's the U.S. they were all.
[00:32:24] Speaker A: Yes. So they've crossed the first wall. They are already now on US soil, where they can seek asylum. They can claim.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: That's right. They can claim they have to get.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Through that second wall, the second border, so they can get taken to the right place to be processed. So just.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: Yes, they've already.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: They've already made it to where they need to be.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: Then they're just being held.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things that was coming up for people was, you know, why can't they just go to the port of entry? I thought, you know, we, you know, there's this app and why can't they just go to the port of entry and they can just show up there and, you know, xyz. The thing is that the app is, you know, and I. We talked about this when we were together. You know, there's a lot of accessibility, like limitations to the app itself, but beyond that, there were only so many slots, if you will, that were available every single day. So.
And. And one of the ways that we described it when you were here is like, trying to get tickets to, like, Taylor Swift's concert. You know, it was like you were in the queue forever and ever. And then you had, you know, friends who were in the queue with you to try to, like, who can get the tickets. Kind of like that. You know, it's like the person. The, you know, the person that's seeking asylum is. Is in Mexico and they are in the queue, let's say, and they're in the queue forever. But to be able to get in the queue, you have to have a smartphone, you have to have WI fi, you have to have credit on your phone, you have to have a charged phone.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:54] Speaker B: You have to. You have to know how to navigate the application that was only available in four languages, knowing well that there's so many languages that are, like, spoken in the world. So there's a lot of, like, accessibility factors that were in play in that.
But, yeah, so people were held at whiskey 8 for a. For a while, you know, for days. And then finally it started to decrease from days to hours, and. And then it just. I mean, up until February of this year is the last time that we had a group that was at Whiskey A. Believe it was like, February 15th of this year is when we saw a group. And then now with the new administration and there they've, like, put more kind of like, surveillance, if you will, at the border. And that space has gone from. You know, we had three tents. I know that when you were there, there's, like, three tents. And, you know, each tent had, like, sort of a purpose. And, like, there's only one tent remaining there. The hospitality table is still there.
But even for people to get close to the table and close to us, like, even handing out water, it's almost impossible because now there's, like, wire and, like, all these other things that are there. And so it's just. It feels so impossible for people to.
[00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah, and you guys were just there at Whiskey 8. You were there literally just to provide aid. So the wall is like these vertical metal slats and you could stick your arm through. And so, yeah, as people were kind of in this detainment center, you guys would hand out food and water and baby formula and.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Ponchos or information, whatever they needed while they were.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: That's correct. Exactly. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. And so we're not between. We did not have access. I think that's important to clarify. So I appreciate you bringing that up, but, like, we were not between the. The walls. Like, the only people that had access to enter that space are border agents themselves, Border patrol agents themselves. And then. So what we would do is literally hand things through the wall and then. Or through the slats. And as you were describing it, and then just kind of wait, you know, if someone was injured, this common question. If someone was injured or not feeling well, we would advocate to call ems.
And what that means is that.
That we ourselves wouldn't call ems. Like, part of the protocol was you call, like, border patrol, their headquarters, and then say, hey, we have a person, you know, we have a male who's, you know, has, you know, these symptoms and is not feeling well or is unresponsive. Can you please call ems? And the reason that that would be would. Because, you know, only they have the access and control to be able to open the gate, you know, and, like, you know, all that kind of stuff. So it was very much a place. And I. And I. And while I'm describing it, I think it's really important for me to, to, to say that while this place like was filled with like struggle and uncertainty, it was also a place of a lot of sacredness.
Like to go back to the conversation that we were talking about in regards to like reminding ourselves that we, that we're image bearers, you know, that, that they're, that they are people made in the image of God. And so being able to see them and to say hello and to like offer water and just the presence just being present. Yeah, I think, and I think that that's one of the things that when we think about like advocacy or when we think about, you know, the practice of being a good neighbor or just living into this loving our neighbor lifestyle, like presence is huge. Presence is huge. We sometimes all we need is that is just to be there with, you know. Yeah.
And, and I think that that was, that was part of the work that we were doing and, and part of the work that we were doing is, you know, making sure that people's rights were, you know, being respected. You know, things like that and really wanting to live into that.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah, well, like you said earlier, you were seeing people, you were just providing the opportunity for them to be seen. I'm getting emotional again thinking about it because as I'm hearing you talk about it, I'm like all I remember seeing, not all, but one of the biggest things I remember seeing when we were there, especially when we saw a couple families arrive, arrive while we were there just learning about what you guys were doing. I just saw hope. I just saw so much hope and I just saw so much through what you guys were doing of the goodness of God and the love of Jesus for people.
And I think that was one of the, probably the most impactful experience that I had in the whole immersion trip because yeah, like you can hear. I want to get into like what are things people are hearing that we can kind of debunk a little bit. But I think that was the biggest thing for me was you can hear all of these things, like for example, that the people that are coming are all criminals.
But then when you're standing there and you watch like these two brothers and this mom with her, you know, I think six year old daughter dragging her little like stuffy stuffed animal that she's brought. Like then you remember, oh, these, these are actually just people like us, like, like my own daughter, like my own, you know, uncle or whoever.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I still, to me that place is still one of the most sacred places I've, I've ever like so sacred. So sacred.
Because it does hold people's hope.
It's. It also holds people. I mean like so much. Some people arrive there with, with faith, you know, with.
I mean, I remember and I say faith because I remember vividly last year, I want to say maybe it was like in July or August and, and I just remember a lady and her daughter arriving and her daughter is probably like 15 or 16, around that age.
And they arrive and the first thing that they do is fall on their knees and they just like start praying. And, And I knew that that's what they were doing. I had no idea like what they were saying, but I knew that that's what they were doing. Yeah. Because it was so evident, you know, in, in their, in their tone, in their posture that they were just, you know, that sort of like. And it sounded like a prayer to me. It felt. And it sounded, you know, and again I didn't understand what they were saying, but it just felt like a prayer of thanksgiving, of like, of like we've made it to this place and like, sort of like.
And I can, like I said, I can still hear them and I mean, hands up, praying out loud and you're kind of like.
And so it is a place of sacredness, of, of. Of hope and of faith. And I even, you know, also of play, which probably is like. What do you mean play? But like I saw kids throw around a soccer ball there. Like I remember myself playing hide and seek with like a little like, you know, six, seven year old girl just like between, you know, the slates and as like, you know, to pass the time, you know, and I think, and pointing back to that like humanity like factor that, that we are image bearers and you know, and that God not only, you know, sits with us in our valley, but also like is with us in moments of joy and moments of play and moments of laughter and, and, and that to me was such a, like a beautiful reminder that we can hold both and, and that there's like so much just. Yeah. Watching in the midst of all of this, this little girl like play and the kids throw around the ball and I'm like, there's so much unknown and you are. Yeah, it's kind of wild, but it's also really beautiful and it's telling of, of. Of of that sort of like what we talked about. I know I keep going back to day and. But I think it's so important because we also don't want to reduce people to just being like, you know, just a refugee or just an asylum seeker. It's kind of like what you said, you know, it's like they are someone's daughter, you know, they are someone's, you know, mother. They are a lot of people, I'm sure they're like, had other professions, you know, they were just. And so we are not just a one dime, one dimensional person. And those that are coming here to seek refuge or to seek safety are not just one dimensional. Their story is not just that part of. That's not just that one singular part of the story. There's so much more and so much more to. To be lived as well. So.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: Well, I want to point out to people quickly too, because you mentioned that you didn't know what they were saying in their prayer and something that was a misconception that I had that I think a lot of our listeners probably do too, because Liliana, you speak Spanish and you were at the Mexico border, but people from all over the world come through that border. Yeah, I was shocked to find that out. And even some of the people that we met and got to talk to were not from Mexico. They had traveled through multiple countries on their own to. To find what they were hoping to be as hope and safety and a better life.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And. Yeah. And I mean, I don't know if you remember there we had a wall of like different sort of like the sheets to orientate people like to. And I believe at one point we had like 12 languages up on the wall. So that's just like telling of like how. And every time we interacted with someone new, it was like, okay, we have to be able to provide this now in a, you know, in a different language. Okay, yeah, can we like, let's do that as quickly as we can.
But that is just telling of like how those that were arriving were from all over and like people that were experiencing, you know, political persecution or religious persecution or like, like, you know, people. And I, I named those two things because we, I did, for example, have someone that clearly stated those things to me. But not everyone shares their story when they arrive there. Not everyone says, oh, this is why I'm. Because, yeah, the, the. The moment of encounter is. Can be brief, but it also is so tender. You know, they're arriving with a lot of emotions and a lot of thoughts and, and also wondering who are you exactly?
[00:45:06] Speaker A: Are you important or not?
[00:45:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I think, I think that's important to understand, you know, or to just to kind of remember as we're talking about this place. And so again, whiskey, a holding Site between the two walls. And there are. And we didn't even talk about this, but there's two walls here in San Diego. That's not. Not true for the entire southern border.
Depending on the terrain, things change.
Also, you know, we don't have a river like the one that you see in Texas here in San Diego. So that's one of the reasons, apart from other things that there is, like, this double fencing.
And again, like, I think it's just really important to take into consideration that, you know, walls or fences, you know, have layers of. Of not just history, but also of experience, and they communicate different things, like fear and safety, but also, like.
Also. Yeah. So.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I mean, talk about communicating from. From the US Side, the wall is brown or gray, depending on where you are along the border. Cold, just.
And then from when we were in Tijuana looking at the wall, it's, like, beautiful. And they've painted it, and it's in a friendship park, and it's depicted stories of, like, hope and togetherness and love. I mean, even just visually, one side of the wall, the fence versus the other, communicated completely opposite things.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think it goes back to what we've been talking about in terms of, like, you know, what stories are we telling and how are we framing the stor.
And also recognizing that there is. And I think that that really is what. At least what I pick up when I. When I see or take you all to the.
The Mexico side of the border wall is like, you know, they are reminding us of the humanity and how this has impacted, you know, the families and the community. And so there's just like.
Yeah, it's an important lens for us to remember as we. As we continue to discuss, like, both immigration policy structures like the wall, but also welcome in general, like, hospitality and living into hospitality. And what do we do? You know, what kind of walls do we put up in our lives?
Whether literal or.
Girl, you know. Exactly. No, but it's true. Like, we do this, and so, like, really thinking through, like, what am I communicating with my life? And going back to that intentionality of, like, okay, how can I continue to, like, check myself, but also, like, engage and keep my eyes and my ears open to what God is inviting me into.
Yeah.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: All right, so let's debunk some of these things that people are hearing. Let's start with the one that we've. I've at least alluded to a couple times, which is the idea that the people that are crossing the border are Criminals or that even if they were not a criminal, once they cross, they're a criminal.
Talk to us a little bit about that. Like, is crossing the border a criminal offense or a civil offense?
[00:48:18] Speaker B: Okay, you are getting into the weeds. I want to do it. Yeah, tell the people.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Liliana, let's go.
[00:48:27] Speaker B: Okay. I'll start with just naming some very common misconceptions, and then we can do our best to get into weeds. But I think that, honestly, if you're wanting to get into weeds, I think we can totally, like, find another episodes, because I feel like, like that conversation will lead into, like, you know, explaining again, pointing back to, like, the different types of statuses. And then, you know, I think especially right now with so many of the statuses also being, like, revoked, I think that's. I don't know if you've been watching and. And I think that we can definitely take time to address that, because I. There are so many changes that are very much quickly happening.
So common misconceptions that we hear both in table and table talk at, you know, outside of the church, in the church, little, like, atrium or, you know, with friends and family is like, why don't they just come here legally?
That is a very common misconception or even, like, framing of it. And. And going back to what we even talked about, the beginning of this is like, legal pathways are incredibly. And I mean, like, incredible, incredibly limited.
They're also super outdated and so outdated and inaccessible. So most people actually, like that are fleeing danger, persecution.
They are confronting themselves with a broken system. And so they.
There's.
There's very few. Very few legal pathways, if you will. And there's so, like, there's so many caveats to it, you know, even if we think through again, because I'm think as I'm responding to this, I'm like, thinking of, like, for example, the diversity, like lottery, like, visa lottery, like, who is who, you know, who includes all these countries, but does not include, like, Mexico and Brazil and, like, and the list goes on and on and on. And. And then you're just kind of like, well, then is it really a lottery system? Is it really something that's possible? And then the chances of you actually getting that. And so, like, I just want to say that the lines are. The lines that they've created, like, are constantly moving.
And so it's like when you're. This is probably a terrible way of explaining it, but it's the most everyday kind of thing. It's like when you're at the.
At the Grocery store and you're about to pay and you're like trying to fit and. But you're on a time crunch. You know, let's say you got to go pick up your kid from whatever and you're like, I only have five minutes. But you're looking at the line and that line is moving faster. And then line, that line is like extra long. And then this line is that one. And you're trying to figure out what line can get me to my, you know, whatever as fast as I can. And you're just kind of like weighing the options and trying to figure out which one. And then, but the lines are moving. And then suddenly that person goes on lunch break and now that other line just got longer and then. And I again, probably not the best kind of like, no, but it's like, but it's like the lines are moving constantly. They're constantly.
Especially right now. And I mean I, like I said we can definitely get into the weeds in another episode or like a follow up or however you want to do this. But especially right now with the like the stop of like asylum seekers, like temporary protective status, like there's so much that the lines are moving or they're just ceasing to exist.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: And for some of them it's like, hey, I know you've been standing in this line this long. Doesn't, this line doesn't even exist anymore. Like this person didn't go on their lunch break. They're never coming back.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Like, that's right.
[00:52:13] Speaker A: This is, this now no longer is an option for you.
[00:52:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And that's where, that's where the fear, the distress and everything enters and, and the uncertainty magnifies.
Another common misconception is like, they're taking our jobs.
And that's a super common one as well. But study after study and after study shows that immigrants actually make a lot of contributions in Texas. More and less. What, more than what they receive in benefits. And then, and then also they just do really essential work. I mean we've talked about, you know, they are people, but you know, they're also contributing in a lot of really meaningful ways into our communities. And then the one that you brought up was, which is how you frame. The question is like that they are criminals. That's a common misconception, but we talked about this already, that seeking asylum is, is protected by both US and international law. So it's like it's legal. It's legal under US and international law. And most migrant families and people that are seeking asylum are Actually fleeing like real, real danger. We're talking about war, we're talking about religious persecution. And I'm not just talking about Christian religious persecution. This is like religious persecution for, I mean, just depending on where you are in the world. And so I think that those are really important things to remember.
So, so I think that these are like probably the most common misconceptions that we hear.
And, and that there are people that are just wanting to seek safety. And so, and you know, again, going back to like refugee status and asylum, see, there are vetting processes or processes I'm not exactly sure how, but that go into each of these legal categories or pathways, if you will. And so I didn't, I didn't really get into the weeds of that. But like even those that are seeking for refugee, for a refugee to get their status, like they go into a vetting process that takes sometimes years because they want to like vet them, their family, like those that are coming with them, you know, and, and they don't actually arrive to the southern border, they arrive by plane to the city that they will be transitioning into or living into. And so it's a completely different other process. That's why I'm like understanding how like what is a refugee, how they get vetted, how that process works. And then even just asylum seekers as well, just those two, which we're hearing a lot about right now, can be an entirely different conversation, but one worth taking because, you know, right now the refugee resettlement program doesn't even exist.
It's like completely stopped. And same goes for the, those that are seeking asylum with the CBP1 app. And you know that that now has been converted to a different app, which we didn't even get into because it's true. I mean, it's changed and like now it's like a self reporting like itself, sort of like. Yeah, so the, the again, things are changing and it's really important for us to, to take time to learn what things mean, especially if we want to engage in these conversations and not only engage in them and like informing other people, but also advocating.
So staying informed is really important, especially to fight misconceptions.
[00:55:53] Speaker A: Right.
Do you want to talk about ice?
Do you have anything you want to say about, anything you want to say about that? Or is that too like in the weeds?
[00:56:04] Speaker B: I think these are all really good questions.
What's happening right now with ICE is cruel, inhumane on so many levels. Yeah.
And I think that, I think the church also has also an opportunity to really be the Church, you know, to. I went. I mean, we talked a little bit about solidarity earlier in this conversation, but I think that the church really has an opportunity to stand in solidarity with those that are experiencing targeted raids. And. And, you know, by that they are targeted. Like, we cannot.
[00:56:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:55] Speaker B: We cannot not say that. That it's true. And so I think there's an opportunity for us to really be the church and to move beyond prayer into real action.
And also, not just in everyday solidarity, but also, like, in actually advocating and saying, like, no, we. We need to stop doing this. And so, like, calling for accountability is what I'm saying.
[00:57:20] Speaker A: Okay, let's. Let's wrap this, Liliana, with. I mean, you kind of just said, you know, you. You basically just called us all up and out. And so because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can people listening become the church to the migrants and the refugees? How can they actively get involved?
[00:57:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I mentioned praying. I. Which is, you know, prayer is powerful. I won't deny that I think prayer is a great starting point, but it is. And it's a continual thing that we can go back to. Absolutely. Prayer, obviously, all the time. Yeah, people can pray, but people can definitely advocate. Like when I mentioned advocate, what does that look like? And what does that mean? It means holding your officials accountable to what's happening. And when something like this that, like, what we're seeing right now is picking up the phone on your commute, you know, like, sync your phone up to your smart screen on your. On your car and, you know, say, okay, I have 10 minutes or 15 minutes to point from A to point B, and I will call my official. If they don't pick up the phone, I will leave a message, and, you know, you leave your name, your phone number, etc.
Or during your lunch break, you know, okay, the last 10 minutes of my lunch break, I'm gonna call my officials and I'm gonna do this. If you're like, who do I even call? And what does that even mean? And what do I even say? Do not fear. World Relief has tools on our website. Yeah, that. And we've even prepared, like, scripts for you. We tell you where to call. We connect the phone call for you so you don't even have to, like, dial another thing. Like, we. You enter your information, your zip code, and then we tell you your next three phone calls are going to be to these three people that, you know, correspond with you or these two people. And then here are the things that we're Advocating for. You can read this script or you can insert whatever you would like. And so it's really. We've really have intentionally created these tools because they are so important.
Very, very important. Yeah, so advocating scripts.
[00:59:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, too. That can be intimidating sometimes. And so it's great that you guys have the script, but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, the wording doesn't have to be like. Like, we're not trying to change the mind of the person on the phone.
They're just gonna go, okay, this is a call about immigration. This is a call about border. And so they just basically are, like, making tallies.
[00:59:47] Speaker B: And it's a data point. That's correct. Yes. So it's a data point.
[00:59:49] Speaker A: You don't have to stress so much about being super informed and knowing all the. They're not gonna. They're give. They're not gonna give you a quiz.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: No, it's not a quiz. No, it's not a quiz at all. It is just literally calling and being like, you know, they're gonna say, you know, yeah, I care about this. I have questions. I have concerns about xyz.
And this is. You can name Y. You don't have to name Y, but if you would like to, you can.
And then they will be like, okay, this person called about this, and this person called, you know, da, da, da. And then they will again gathering data.
And it's really important data, friends. Like, it really, really is. It really makes a difference.
And I, like, even last week, we had virtual advocacy calls and meetings that we did where, like, World Relief, like, set up virtual, like, congressional advocacy meetings with. And. And literally, it's basically like making the phone call, but it's just on zoom. And you meet with the staffer and you tell them, hey, I have a. About xyz. And, like, so there's so many different types of ways. If you're like, I don't want to pick up the phone. I don't like picking up the phone. Okay, well, the next time that we post about, like, virtual advocacy days, like, sign up, and we will help do all the hard lifting. And then, you know, equip you to know what to say. And then it's like a really simple virtual, like, meeting with them, and you tell them about why, and again, we coach you through the entire process. But. But there's so many different ways to advocate. You can also write letters. My neighbor, she's, like, 75.
Every Friday, she, like, writes a letter. And sometimes they're really long. I know. Sometimes they're really long, and sometimes they're, like, super short. Sometimes they're emails. But, you know, she's like, no, I'm so upset. This cannot be happening. You know, and so, like, when I'm seeing people that are my neighbors doing this, like, good, hard work, it. It means we all can. Can do our heavy. Like, we can all do our little lifting as well. Right? Right. So advocate, if you're a pastor or a leader, whether it's a small group leader, a Sunday school leader, a discipleship pastor, missions pastor, or a lead pastor, preach and teach about this, preach and teach about immigration, preach and teach.
We have resources for that as well. We have sermon outlines, we have books that we recommend. And.
But people want to hear you preach about this. People want to know, like, what does the Bible have to say about caring for the vulnerable, the displaced?
What is my role in the public square as a follower of Jesus? Like, all of these things are so important for us to continue shaping the minds and the hearts of those that we've been entrusted with as. As pastors and leaders. So I think it's so important. And. And we even have, like, the Welcoming the Stranger book, but that I believe you got when you were here. You know, we have a study guide for that you can do with your small group or, you know, there's just a lot of different opportunities and ways that you can stay involved and so advocate, teach, and preach. If you're a pastor, a leader, a volunteer, please volunteer.
There's so many different ways to volunteer. Your time is such a huge resource to nonprofits. Not just like World Relief, but if World Relief doesn't exist in your neighborhood, like, find a local nonprofit that is doing the good work and, you know, working alongside immigrants, refugees. Like, different. Just get involved and so simple as, you know, sometimes it's like, oh, they're going to set up an apartment and they need someone to, like, you know, help build the bed. Or like, you know, it can be as simple as that. Or it could be something like, oh, you know, another office is looking for someone that can give rides to. To and from, you know, a doctor's appointment or to and from, you know, this other appointment.
Or it could be something as simple as, you know, hey, we are collecting xyz. Can you help us mobilize this? You know, know, volunteer opportunities can have so many different shapes. I mean, I remember during COVID I was packing, like, frozen meals for people that were arriving here, and that. That was my work. Like, I. And they were shell. They were in shelters and in hospital and hospitals, in hotels here in San Diego. And so I was volunteering with a local nonprofit, and all I. All I was doing for hours, like, sometimes it was like three hours was like, like packing these, like, frozen meals and, like, snacks and stuff and then driving them to, like, the place where. Where it was, whether it was a hotel or shelter or whatever, and dropping off the food and just being like, okay, we dropped off for this many families or ex. And sometimes. Yeah, and sometimes my volunteer. Yeah, exactly. Showing up, it's again, pointing back to presence.
So, yeah, volunteer. And we talked about prayer. Prayer is so powerful.
So pray for the families that are in limbo. Pray for your leaders that are making these decisions, that the Holy Spirit would do the good work.
And then stay learning.
I know. I feel like this list is so long, but the last thing to say is, like, keep learning. Keep learning. There's so many ways to keep learning. Read a book, watch a movie.
There's podcasts that you can keep listening to audiobooks. There's children books about immigration. I mean, I can share all those kinds of resources with you, but stay learning, like, listen to the voices and the people that are being impacted by these changing shifts and realities, because they will.
It will help you stay informed. And like we have been mentioning, open your eyes and your mind and your heart to.
To the. To the truth of what. What is going on.
So, yeah, and you know, and learn not only from voices, but also stay informed. So, you know, read the news. I know it can be overwhelming, but it's important to stay informed about what's going on.
[01:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh, Liliana, thank you so much. I know that we fire hose people listening in our own way today, and.
[01:06:09] Speaker B: We did half of it. Yeah, no, totally.
[01:06:13] Speaker A: But I'm so. I'm so grateful for you, for. For your time today, but also just the work that you're doing, what World Relief is doing, what Women of Welcome is doing, like I said, genuinely changed my life, changed the way that I see people. And so I just want to bring that education and compassion and empathy to more and more people so that more people can join together doing the good work of loving their neighbor and showing up to be Jesus in the world and to become the church. So thank you. Thank you so much.
[01:06:44] Speaker B: Of course. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
[01:06:51] Speaker A: One thing that I want us all to remember is this, that no one chooses to be a refugee or asylum seeker or despised by the people around them unless it's a better alternative to what they've left behind.
There is a poem called Home by Warson Shire that I was going to read here but will encourage you to read instead. It will really give you a better picture of why people who are not born American citizens would choose to not only come, but even come quote unquote illegally. And for the people who are struggling to understand, I will leave you with this thought from Brene Brown.
She says if your response is the parents should not have brought their children here illegally, know this. I pray to God that you never have to flee violence or poverty or persecution with your children. And if the day comes that you must and your babies are forcibly removed from your arms, I will fight for you too.
See, it's not about politics or partisanship. It's about honoring the imago DEI of all people and loving our neighbors as Jesus both instructed and demonstrated with his own life.
I know this episode was a bit of a heavy one and I pray that Holy Spirit will show you your next steps. I'm so proud of you for listening instead of looking back away. Thank you for being here. Even this first step of listening matters. Until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around you.
