Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Kids ask weird questions that you don't have the answers to, but I know someone who does, and she's gifting you all those right words today. This is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. And I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young. Meredith Ann Miller is here with basically a guidebook on how to talk to your kids about God, faith, and all the weird stories in the Bible. She's got answers for your questions, and she's going to answer some kid questions that you, the listener, sent to me on Instagram. Fun fact, before we jump in, while we were recording, Meredith found out that Wonder, her new book, became a USA Today bestseller.
And that's because, as you'll repeatedly hear me tell Meredith in this conversation, this book is just that helpful. Make sure you go to the show notes, click on the link, and see what all of the goodness is about.
Meredith Ann Miller, welcome back to Becoming Church.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Thank you. I'm so glad to be back.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: I'm so happy to have you. People probably don't know, and I don't know if you remember this, but you were one of my, like, first guests in my first year on my first season, when I didn't really know what I was doing. Do you remember the nightmare of our first interview?
[00:01:28] Speaker A: That's. Oh, I had forgotten. You're right. We had, like, some serious tech stuff.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: It was so was like.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: This inter. I made you move all over your house. You were like, okay, we're gonna try this room and let me try this room. And then you, like, went out in the shed.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Yes. And now I'm just starting in the shed from the jump. So we're just. We're already off.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Start from the beginning. The issue was, like, on my end, but I was like, meredith, it has to be you. Like, oh, my gosh.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: I mean, my tech skills are low enough that I would assume it's my fault, too.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Well, thank you for sticking with me now. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
Well, we have talking about woven, and we're going to talk about Wonder, which is your new book, which I kind of, like, unintentionally matched today.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you for the color coordination.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: You're so welcome. You're so welcome. Before we dive into it, though, this very thick, amazing book, let's do a quick little Q and A. Like, a really quick fire. So I want to know, in the Bible, what is your favorite story to tell?
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Uh, Jesus Calming a storm.
Oh, why?
Um, because I think it's really age accessible. Right? You can do that like all the way down to toddler. But then there's layers for like ever and ever. And I think it's fascinating what Jesus is doing and pointing to. I think it's fascinating how the gospel writers want to then like also add their layers of interpretation about like what they sort of see, like in retrospect event.
I think the symbolism of water in scripture is so fascinating.
Like, like it's the symbol of chaos and they're scared of it. And so we tend to be as people who sort of see ourselves able to like dominate nature at all times. Like, we just don't always even think about this idea that like being on water would just fundamentally be like a fearful place to begin with, let alone like the symbolic layers of being able to take tame one. I just think there's just so much, it's just so fun.
But you get all the way down to like 2 year olds and you've got like their friend Jesus and boats and water and that's like all fun to play in. It's just, it's a good one.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Water's always terrified me. So for me, yeah, I get it.
What is one of the hardest stories to talk about with, I mean, with kids specifically.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: I think with kids specifically. I mean, so this has become like a running joke as we've been launching wonder into the world. Because I am more vocal in public than I used to probably be about how much I just don't want Noah's Ark in kids resources. Like, I just don't.
But.
But that would be the answer of like, it is one of the hardest ones to tell to kids because it is so symbolic and ancient and. And there's all these other tellings of flood stories that influence our flood story. And it's scary and it's confusing. And I don't mind wading into those themes with older kids and like preteens who now have like, worked in literature for a while, like biblical and otherwise. Right. Who can talk about interpretive tools. But with kids, I just find that if they've heard that story.
Cause usually what happens is I'm like, I'd love us to not to. And then adults are like, cool. My kid heard it anyway. Now what?
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Right? They were like, well, it was their nursery theme for years.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: And it's just, it is a hard story and adults who pretend it's not. To me, that just feels like you're, you're playing at something. Come on this story's hard for us too. And. And I think it can be good. Hard for us, but for kids, it's just hard. Like, it's. It's confusing. And when we try to grab something kids can access, I feel like the stuff we're leaving out is really troubling, that it's gonna, like, it's gonna feel gotcha to them when they, like, come back. And so it just, like, even when I'm not sort of taking a dig at it, like, it's. It is just genuinely, I think, a really challenging story that this floats around for kids.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: It's so interesting. I've never thought about this before, but right now I'm very. In this mindset of thinking about, like, the things that we, like, turn a blind eye to.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: In the Bible, in the world, like, so be it, whatever. And now I'm like, I wonder if that's one of the. Earl, you know, one of the earliest stories that we tell kids that as parents we, like, think about and we do. We just go, but focus on the rainbow. We're like, yeah, but look at the happy ending. And we turn a blind eye to all of the other stuff. And I wonder if we just are. I guess I'm seeing the connections of the ways that we teach ourselves to, like, come to this conclusion, you know? Yeah.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I think so. It is.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: It's.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: And this God keeps their promises. Yeah, true. Right.
God kept Noah and his family safe, and that means something. Yeah, true. Right. Like, some folks in the Christian tradition are like, it's an allegory of, like, shelter and protection. It's, you know, meant to be all symbolic kind of thing of, like, what does the ark symbolize for shelter and safety? That's like a robust tradition in. In certain churches. It's like, yeah, you can't. You can't get to any of these places without the rest of the plot.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: But that's the thing. They do depend on just ignoring a huge chunk of the plot. You just don't. Don't do it. And. Right.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Because it's hard. Right?
[00:06:44] Speaker B: Not recommended friends. Not on. Not on this podcast. Not for Meredith's books, any of that.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: Just save. Save it till they're older, and you can wait until the hard.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yes. All right, what's a story or something about God that kids understand better than adults?
[00:06:57] Speaker A: You think, oh, that God likes them until we. Until we take that away from them.
Okay, so, like, young kids, especially if you tell them stories that introduce them to Jesus and what Jesus does And what Jesus says, like, he's magnetic.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: It's like, oh, of course this is my friend. Like, of course this is a safe grown up. And which is so fascinating because young kids tend to be concrete and you're talking about someone they don't have tangible, physical, embodied experiences with. And yet.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: They just accept this like, oh, God, God likes me.
And they don't start to wonder that or doubt that until 7 and up. If adults sort of then teach them other kinds of things. Okay. That cause them to. Right.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Like we do that by teaching scripture, like inaccurately.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: I think that's a big one. Right. Like we make it seem like if you mess up too much, there's this like or else to it. All right?
Obey or else listen or else go God's way. Or else. Like the or else is silent. But kids are very perceptive. And as soon as there's an or else, but they're trying their hardest, then the message that they take away is there must be something sort of like deficient in them. And then of course, part of that is about our, our weak vocabulary on sin. In certain traditions especially, we just have a really narrow and a really like extremely specific definition of sin that we give children that sets them up to think it's kind of, it's like, it's a very individualistic decision. It's very like I choose things that are wrong and that then creates a sense of like, well, God must not like me as much if I don't, if I don't do it right. And so, but, but they won't, they won't go there if we do better with scripture and theology.
Okay.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Yes. And we will get there. You're going to help us. You're going to help us get there.
All right. Even though you are my go to parenting all things kids and faith expert, you have been for years, is there a time that you can help us all, like, feel a little more human where you tried to explain scripture and maybe it did not go as planned?
[00:09:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah. I 100% told the Passover story too young to my kids.
We, we as a family, like my husband's also a pastor. We're both kind of nerdy on the stuff that we like to talk about. And so like we had talked about like the empire theme of the Bible pretty young. And our kids actually seem to more or less, you know, get that at an age appropriate way. We had talked about justice. We had talked about God's deep love for all people. Like we had sort of these seeds planted Where I thought, okay, if we, if we get through this part of the story, they're gonna have kind of the tools they need to deal with why.
Yeah, no, no, no, no.
And so we had like a year plus probably fall out of my older son being like, but God's not good because he killed all the Egyptian babies.
And I was like, yeah, that part's hard.
Made worse by the fact that that was also a year he was in like a church, not our church, but a church sponsored sports league where they do like little mini faith talks, which were fine. And somehow there was a connection between that and this story in his mind. And he said, but what about. And the coach did the thing that I really hate, which was like, well, that's all part of God's plan.
And it's like, yes. What. What do you even mean? He's seven. What do you. What do you mean?
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Why did you. Hold on, hold on to this easy answer, please. Because. Right, and so, like, I actually know how to explain this to you, so just take this and please believe it.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: And I'm already been like, we have been trying to hold the tension of like, I am not going to try to take away from you that. That is where you are in that story. And I'm going to try to walk you through other stories of God's goodness. And there's so much more to the Exodus that I think we just obviously now I have to wait it out until you're old enough to understand those pieces.
So, yeah, it was like a really long haul of like, nothing we were talking about with God or faith did not come with an asterisk in his mind of like. But the Passover.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. How did you get him through that?
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Oh, so, I mean, so much time.
And so part of it was like, alone is helpful.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Time, time.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Like parents. Oh, like probably probably like a year, a year and a half before it felt like we started to like, turn the corner a bit. And part of that was we told other kinds of stories.
Not to like, fix or correct God's goodness or the Passover piece, but, like, just to round out what was what he was learning.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: That was how he started to get better at, like, the Bible is told in a style. The Bible comes from a different time and place that is not really like, now there are these cultural elements because he started to practice those in other stories that weren't nearly as threatening or complicated. Then we got to like an overt conversation. And really, I would, I would probably guess a year and a half later at least of like, hey, so that other one, it has some of this too. And I'm not saying it'll fix it for you, but, like, here's another detail. And here's another detail. And he was just older enough to start giving some of the extra, like, literary features to the Exodus.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: In a way that helped just sort of like, add some gray to his, like, black and white takeaway that God wasn't good of. Like. Yeah. But also.
And older also helped with him being more aware of things happening in the world that feel Egypt. Like.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: And then that becomes helpful too. So. Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: When they can see you're very good at. I feel like paralleling scripture with real actual life as well as like, other things that they know. Like, hey, let's talk about this Disney movie and whatever and help them to relate, like, how things actually work.
We can do a whole episode on, like, finding scripture in Disney movies.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: All right.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: What is a place in Scripture that fills you with wonderful, like, still,
[00:13:01] Speaker A: I.
I have really enjoyed being an ax recently. Our church is walking through Acts, just kind of meandering our way through. And like, I don't know, so many of the stories are weird and like, just what's going on is so fun. And then you, like, pair, like, really uniquely miraculous stuff. Like Peter going about healing in Jesus name and shadow is apparently, you know, slightly mystical. And then like, the next thing was the issue of, like, inequitable distribution of food for widows and like, yeah, the like, setup of the teams to basically take care of that. And it's just like such a fun side by side of like, what God's doing in this group of just like these things that seem really phenomenal and these things that are like, administrative.
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Right. And also just like the everyday of doing the church and starting the church and doing ministry.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: And it's just there is that part of me that I'm like, I just, I wonder what this actually felt like in real time. Because I, I definitely came out of some churches that like, the hyper emphasis on only Acts 2, 42.
Like, it created like a caricature of church. Right. Like this sort of like by not ever being in the rest of Acts, it was just like, well, we just do these four things and check, check, check. And it's like, it'll work. Yeah. And it's like, well, it's not really a formula and it's not a caricature. There's just so much more dynamic going on. And so, yeah, just being in Acts is so much more fun.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Isn't it in Acts when Eutychus falls out the window and, like, pretty sure
[00:14:40] Speaker A: when Paul's talking too long. Yeah.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I love that story and wanted to do that story for so long that last summer, I convinced Naim to do a sermon series called. You probably missed this.
Of, like, random stories.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: I was like, I have got to preach on this story and somehow make it applicable because people don't know that this is in here. And I think it is hilarious.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: I love that. I love that. You probably miss that as such a great. I mean, that is such so much of this, right? Yes. And there's so many great biblical little vignettes that would come up when you sort of put those eyes on. Of like, oh, yeah, what is the stuff?
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Because there's no real reason to be like, did you know there's a talking donkey in the Bible unless you have a series like that.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: Super fun. I love that. Super fun. All right, well, last little quick Q and A for you. I want to know what is the best scripture story for this current time that we're living in. And you can take that however you want.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: I think there'd be. I think there'd be options. Right. The bet I always get, like, superlatives make me nervous because so much of. So much of what I want to advocate for within a family is like, actually there isn't one right way. Including that. Right. Like, including how to meet the moment. And. And so, so.
And I know. And I know you don't mind that I caveat it like that.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: No, not at all. I love it.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: Okay. So I am personally and in our church, this last time when we had our kids together, we did Revelation.
Not in a left behind sort of way. And yes, not in a we are ushering in Jesus's return through political action sort of way, but in a.
Is all of this actually totally stupid? Like, that was our opening question. These were our older kids, right? Like our. Our nine to and up kids.
And we were talking through, like, here's this time. Like, here are the characters, right? Here's. Here's Nero demanding worship like a God and expecting that to be demonstrated in these ways. And what we had for the kids was we had the paraphrase of Revelation and then big fat margins with prompts to customize the themes of the story to something today. And they got to pick.
So, like, one of the kids to the meeting the moment. And what does that mean in a kid's world? They all know. They're old enough to know things. About what's happening in the wider world and to have opinions about that. So some of them picked that. But I also had a kid say once there was a fat sucking company.
I don't know if they even know about, like, medical intervention opportunity, but, like, who demanded that everyone be thin in order to fit in and be pretty.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Whoa.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Like, that was instead of the. Instead of Nero demanding worship. It was like this was his. Was. Was the terms that. And it was a. It was a male student who put these things through, which I also found just really interesting.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then they were working through, like, so John's message to the people was like, hold tight to Jesus and you aren't a fool, even though you're going to probably feel like a fool and it's going to be costly. And then there's this prompt on the side of like, what would. What would it be now for what you picked? And it was this, God made you who you are and you aren't meant to be different. And like, it was just really cool to see that version. But then we're also in conversation and so they're sharing different answers based on the different things they came up with. And one of them definitely was talking about the administration as their parallel. And there was just, like, space for all of it.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: And.
And what was super fun was to open up and be like, hey, so today we're actually going to be in a story from the very last book of the Bible. It's called Revelation. I'm so curious if any of you have, like, heard of it, had any ideas about it. And the entire group of kids went, no, not really. Yeah, of course not. I was like, yes.
Which is just also a testament to their parents, like, doing some work to untangle, like, whatever is happening in this book. We don't need to pass along some sense that it's any shocking thing that ought to be treaded towards with caution or feared. So they just. They were absolutely bemused when I very briefly said there was this book series that caused complete utter panic in our. In your parents generation. I was like, ask them about it at some point. And they were like, that's so weird.
You're like.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: But we didn't think it was weird at the time.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: It was just.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: And so we were being good Christians.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Yes. Right. And that we were taking. Taking this really important thing seriously. And. Yes. So I. It was just so delightful to invite them into the story and see which themes hit which. Which kids wanted it to be personal, which kids wanted to help him make sense of headlines and how.
How they thought about what a message of encouragement and faithfulness to Jesus would sound.
Now. It was just. Yeah, it was great. So I think that's a huge one. I think if someone was not quite in the revelation space, the other thing I might say for meeting the moment would be to. To revisit the Exodus story.
I did not grow up realizing what I do think is the case, which is I think Exodus is the second most important story in the Bible behind the Resurrection.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: And it's so helpful for understanding so many other parts of Scripture. It echoes over and over and over again.
And so it can be a place that waiting in again can help us, like, see these other. Connect the dots and hear these words that sound like those other words. And I just think it really helps make certain things make sense because no other writer afterwards is ever going to tell their part of the story without being, like, really strongly anchored to this origin story of the God who came and saved them. And so that might be the other place that. And the great thing about that is Exodus, you can break up into lots of little stories.
And so if you have younger kids, you can skip the Passover for now while still talking about God freeing them. Yes, yes. Because that's a story within the story. Right.
And so that can create. There could be different on ramps that you can discern knowing your kid and. And their personality while still kind of getting to the heart of it.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, thank you. I love all. I just love picking your brain for all these things.
So I do want to talk about Wonder. Tell us about.
I want to know how you describe this, because even as I was flipping through, I'm like, this is such a unique, special book. And I'm like, I am going to let Meredith describe this, because I don't even know what to say.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: I. I love her so much. I just. I love her.
So Wonder is. Is the book where a kid's Bible and a study Bible had a baby.
There's 52 stories that have been paraphrased as if I were going to tell them to a kid.
And then within every story are margin notes and footnotes like you would find in a typical study Bible about genre and context and keywords and key images.
But what I chose to include in those notes was curated around equipping adults who will be talking about the Bible with kids. So.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Do they trip a kid up? Will a kid notice this thing once they move from a paraphrase to the full text?
Do you, as a parent, know this piece is part of the story, so talking about the story feels funky to you until this other piece, you know, gets resolved. And then it gives you more freedom to talk with your kid and decide whether you include it or not. Everything in the notes was filtered around how to help it feel like, oh, I could talk to my kid about the Bible if this is what it takes. That you could borrow the words to read the story or read the paraphrase and then reparaphrase it again. That you could use those notes to answer questions or use those notes to add fun facts to the kid who's like, I know this already.
And then it all ends with three suggested wonder questions that have no right or wrong answer. Because kids really need to know that the goal is not to learn the stories, meaning I know information and I can then recite it. They need to know that to know the stories is to explore them and to ask questions of them and to find things interesting and strange in them. And so those three are sort of a get you started on how does it sound to approach scripture, looking less for right and wrong answers and more for who God is and what God's like.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I think that's what we, our generation people. I think that's what we were. What's missing, like right now, even when people are stuck in scripture or they misinterpret scripture because it is. It's that. Right. Like, that's what we were given as kids. Like, this is what this Bible verse means. And so this is what it means. And we never had permission, freedom, we parameters to, like, there was no exploration. No. At all.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: No, there's one right way to interpret the Bible and then you learn it. And the. The huge miss in that among. Well, among other things. But it's like, well, there's this opportunity with kids to teach them how to, like, interpret well, like, but when you go with one right way, then they come out and they have no interpretation skills.
Right. And so you've given such a huge setback of both not knowing there's more good ranges of interpretation and also not knowing how to do that for themselves.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's teach our kids how to think.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Teach them to understand why they believe what they believe and not just what they believe.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yep. But I agree with you. I feel like the dominant model for conversations, like, through my teen and college years was very much like, learn what some other expert adult has already figured out.
And then once you can keep that in your brain, then you know it too. Right.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Check, check.
Well, this is so brilliant. You're a brilliant mind. I just. I love you so much. My. I think favorite part of this book is when you. I'm like, I want the listener to understand, guys. I want you to understand. You need this book. Because my favorite part is when you're like, hey, when your kid asks you this, say this. Like, you have pre thought about what weird and hard questions parents are going to get from their kids. And you already put them in here, and you're like, if they don't ask you this weird question, they're going to ask you this one. And here's what you can say.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: I love this part. I know. I love this part. Yeah, I tried.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: We tried.
[00:24:52] Speaker A: When there were things that somebody. Because we're in Easter season, right? And so you go to a triumphal entry, and one of ours is like, your kid asks, did Jesus steal a donkey?
Because adults just gloss over it because it's Jesus. So whatever Jesus did, he's allowed. And it's like, y' all kids are gonna wonder if he stole somebody's donkey. And, like, what happened to the people? And what if they needed their donkey? You know how I know? Because the kids in my church did that last Easter where they were like, what happened to their donkey? Did they bring it back?
[00:25:16] Speaker B: And like, great question. Such a good question.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Like, did they know it, that Jesus was only borrowing it, or did he not tell them that part?
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Kids are really good at noticing what the narrator leaves out. And then they're like, wait, what about that?
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Noticing. Noticing is such a good word. I mean, that's all. Wonder, curiosity, noticing. Truly, like, what I. The only thing I keep coming back to as I continue to flip through this book is like, you always hear parents say, you know, we weren't given a handbook. Like, we were never given a handbook on how to raise our kids. And I'm like, Meredith kind of wrote one for faith. Like, that's just genuinely what this feels like to me.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: So good. We.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: I mean, I really hoped it would feel like maybe not a handbook, and in every kind of answer, but definitely the kind of, like, rest. Definitely the kind of handbook that it's like, yeah, you can. You can go to this. Especially with just the amount of parents that are like, I don't. I don't know how to talk to my kids about the Bible. I don't know enough about the Bible. Yeah, you don't have to. Like, I.
I've said a couple times, I feel like maybe this is a bit more of a use it book than a read it book. Like, I don't know that I envision a typical one of us as an adult sitting down to just like make our way through start to finish. Maybe some people might really enjoy it that way. But it also is very much like a flip to the Easter stories. Because it's Easter time.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: And flip to a story your kid had a question about and like, and mark it up or stick post its in it or you know, add your own wonder questions to it. Like, I hope it feels useful.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's definitely set up that way. Why do you think it is that parents are so intimidated to teach scripture to their children?
[00:26:54] Speaker A: I think some of it is that, that one right way thing that we were just talking about.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: That if they, if they've caught on to the idea that there's something right and they don't know it, then they move into a conversation with their kids. And what if I get it wrong?
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: And so that framework carries over in a way that I think is really unhelpful and implies that you need to be some sort of expert.
I think some adults have now come to a place where they really at their core think that the story of the Bible does not actually pan out to mean that God is good.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Huh.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: I think that like the myth of the so called Old Testament God.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: They don't know how to shake it. They might want to believe that's not the case, but they haven't heard enough Old Testament stories taught well to know how to shake off the idea that God is angry.
Or sometimes in certain communities, like maybe our more progressive friends in faith who anytime two different cultures are interacting in scripture and one culture seems to sort of win while the other loses.
The folks that are also now thinking about more recent history of things like colonization or enslavement or our relationship to indigenous communities. Communities are like, oh, this is really troubling that a culture or community wasn't respected and regarded. And sort of our, our values of respect and pluralism seem to be really at odds with the ancient values that they're seeing.
And the part of them that feels like our way is better and therefore their way must be wrong. And somehow in all these stories is a sense from the, the tellers that God is involved or wanting things or okay with or sanctioning.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: And they, you stack up enough of that. And I think there are adults thinking like, oh, I don't, I don't know how to deal with that. And I don't know how that'll sound for my kid in the world that they live in. And, and so, yeah, I feel like there's just those, those roadblocks and then I just think there's part of it is like, it's complicated. It's a, it's a lot of book. Right. A lot going on.
Yeah, it's just. There's just a lot.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you think the main issue is with adults, like, reading scripture? And I know we talked about, you know, not looking for the things, but what do you think, like, as we read, either on their own or with kids, like, what's the main issue, the thing that we get wrong about scripture when we approach it?
[00:29:28] Speaker A: Oh, the main thing with kids is that we think that the whole point is for them to like, apply it to their lives through the behaviors that they enact or their attitude or, or you know, their tone of voice. Every sort of, like there is such a sense that whether we say it or we just do it, that the Bible's a morality producing manual.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: And so much for kids especially has really been hyper focused on emulating human figures in order to.
And maybe like, and even I think a bit of a mis, A misread and then a misuse of the fruit of the spirit. Like if the Spirit cultivates love, joy, peace, patience, and then I just go teach my kid, go be joyful, go be patient.
Like, aren't I allowed? Because that's the fruit of the spirit. And it's like, nope, because you're not the spirit. Right, Right. Like your role in that then is to help a kid learn what it means to create space for the Spirit, learn how the Spirit speaks through scripture, Learn how, how there's these different pathways of prayer that, that help us listen well to God and help us share things with God. Like your role is to help kids understand what it means to, to let the spirit grow within them and to help them discern that. Right. Like you're, you're, you're Eli for Samuel. You're not actually God. We are calling out, we are not God. Right, Right.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: Do you think too there's a bit of, like, we tend to make it about us even in adulthood, like as we read or we make it about the, like we don't make it about God. Oh, 100%.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Because you start that way with kids and it's like learn from the human and then you get to adults and every devotional everything is, is just, it's Us. It's what. What do I take from this? What do I like about this? What do I. Yeah, it's. Yeah, everything. I think it's.
And it's. It's not that scripture's not relevant to us. It's just sometimes we miss so much when we're. We're thinking we're the center of it. All.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: We get to learn from it, we get to apply it, we get to be in there. But, yeah, it's not. We're not the main character here.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We give big main character energy to scripture that is misappropriated.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: Yes.
If only, Meredith, there was a book that would help adults heal maybe from a faith that they were given.
Can you think of one? Off top of your head?
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Off the top of my head. I feel like there's this one with a spider in it called woven.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Yes. I know. I used. I used to have it here and I. It's in our kids ministry, like shelf I set up. I'd have to get two of these also because this has been living over there for both the parents and our m. Kids volunteers to like, look through when they get a question.
But I want one in my house too. So I'm like, well, I'll have to get. I'll have to get two.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: It is a very giftable book too. Right. Like, if you are someone who.
Maybe someone in your system of loved ones might come to the Bible and use it in not great ways for kids, this would be a great, like, hey, we are loving these stories. Could you maybe say it like this? Just, you know, that's a. That's an FAQ that comes. What if. What if the folks who love our kids maybe don't see faith in the same way?
This could also be one of those spaces where it's like, have them read the stories like this.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And you, once again, you are literally handing them the words.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: Actually, these words.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: Please say it actually this way.
I have heard you say, Meredith, and I'm going to be vulnerable here and just admit something to you. I've heard you say that. You know, we should tell our kids lots of stories, right? Like tell our kids, but then a certain age. What is it, like 5 to 10? What's the age range? Yeah, that.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: Like 5 to 8 range. They're really like kind of story spongy.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: So they're very story spongy. We should tell them lots of stories and then we can build on it later.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: We can go back and we can say, well, remember when this happened or this connects to that. What if hypothetically, even if you're a pastor, but your kids are older now and you did not do a good job in five to eight of telling them the story. Like, where do I start right now?
[00:33:13] Speaker A: I mean, I think start with Easter because we're in Easter time and so like, why, why jump somewhere else? Right? And if somebody is listening to this outside of Easter and it's near Christmas, start with Christmas. Yeah.
I also think you start by naming. Hey, kids, this is gonna seem weird because we're gonna start something we haven't done. Okay. But also, like, don't like, try to sneak it. Like just name we haven't done it. I want to try it.
Make it an experiment. But story wise, I also think you could start with like, start with Jesus stories of just like, whether they're familiar or not, like, getting to know Jesus is just fun and cool and interesting and so on.
Or start with like, if your kid is super into something right now. Like, if they are really hung up on something and you feel like there are stories that could be helpful to them or if they are really.
Like, sometimes we ask parents, like, just what does your kid need to know about God right now? Oh, that's a great question. And in the back of the book, I don't know if you. Have you seen the back list at the end? Oh my goodness, girl. In the back book, there are six pages of God is. And every story in the book that could be told to help point out that that's what God is like, you are amazing. And so this was a recommendation from a woman named Lisa in Kansas City that she said, I would really love to be able to better like, think about, oh, my kid needs to know God's like, kind and have like more than one story to go from. So that maybe I pick one that's. That he hasn't heard in a while. Or maybe I actually pick. I like remember his favorite. Or and so that there's this index in the back of every story in the book. When we thought it could highlight multiple true things about God, then we listed it over and over again under that one. And that would be my other thought is just that part of you that knows what your kid needs to be like, hey, I'd love for us to be just sort of inviting scripture into what we're going through right now. And so I'm going to tell you some stories.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: That's so brilliant. And I'm, I'm looking. I mean, it just looks like a page of text because it is, it's all just so many stories that show us God listens to us next to stories that show us God speaks to us. And it's just once again, you don't actually need to know the Bible stories. You don't have to be able to like recall them. They're there from your perimenopausal brain that struggles with memory. There's.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: Who could do that. It's all right here. I know. So, yes, I am incredibly grateful to Lisa for that idea because I, I love that index. I think it could be so helpful for responding to your real child with scripture, not with an agenda, but with the part of them that's like, what, what do they need from God right now?
[00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. How I love that.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: My kids, I mean obviously they are at church every Sunday. They hear stories, they know things. And we've gone through seasons of like, we try to do it and then it always falls off. Like, when are you doing this during the day? When are you actually in your day talking to your kids about stories?
[00:36:18] Speaker A: To be clear, uh, most days we are not.
Okay. Like we tell, for example, we tell more Bible stories in the summertime because the place we normally do it is in the car and we are driving more places on summer break for various activities and whatnot. And so in the summer season we will talk about the Bible more because we are going to be in the car together more. And in the school year, my kids bike three days a week and I only drive them to school two days a week and the school is only like four minutes away and we probably need like a 10 minute car ride to have that work.
And even then it wouldn't be every time. But I've just sort of recognized like that is part of our family's pattern of like when, when these conversations are going to be more inclined to sort of rise and fall.
And then the other would be we've over time like created a family rhythm of just like the way bedtime works. There's like this last little window that's we just call quiet time, which is like lights are out, a grownup is in your room. There's no real agenda. All the stories have been storied, all the water cups have been filled, all the, all the things are done and there's just like this tiny little buffer. And we especially our, our older is 13 now. And so we are officially moving into the adolescent phase of like whatever they're going to say is coming out at night. Yeah, same. Yeah, right. Which is different than the Young kid phase, which is I'm going to kind of stall because I'd love to keep you here because you're my favorite, which is also true. And sometimes things come up in the effort to stall and roll with it. But if something's going to happen, it's going to be then. And then.
Yeah. And then sometimes there's a chance to be like, yeah. It kind of reminds me of when the Bible talks about this thing. Or it kind of reminds me of that story when.
Which means we're doing a lot of like one sentence connections. Okay. Of like, it reminds me of that thing. Then he'll kind of be like, yeah. It's like, yeah. And we go, but that's. That in real life, that's kind of how it feels. I love it.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: If you can't say that reminds me of, you can say, hey, let's check the book. Yes.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: Let's see what's in the book.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Let's, let's see what's in wonder. Yeah, let's see what our friend Meredith has for us today.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: Or if you half know the story, you say it kind of reminds me of that story with the thing. I don't remember all of it right now. I'm gonna, I'll find it. I'll. I'll find it and I'll tell you more about it tomorrow. You don't.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Kids are so okay with that.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: They're so fine with that.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I think adults struggle with curiosity. Right? Like you said, we've, we, we pull it out of kids. We like un.
Teach it to them. A lot of these things. How would you encourage adults to begin fostering curiosity within themselves?
[00:38:50] Speaker A: I think that, I mean, it could be fun in scripture especially to just like try out reading. The thing with just like, what, like, what do I think is weird in this story?
Like, find something weird.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: And if that takes practice, cool. But try it. Like, just try reading, like, oh, that's weird. It could be a little weird. It could be a lot weird. Like, just put that question on your radar as you look at a Bible story. But also, I think, I don't know, like, I wonder about. All of us need to get outside and touch grass like the youths are telling us to do. Right? And so like set yourself a three minute timer and like, look at the outside world in enough detail to finally remind you that, like, I wonder how this tree keeps surviving when all the birds keep doing what they're doing. I don't know, like, just find yourself a question in a few minutes of staring at the world because we, we just don't, we don't slow enough. I don't think we're going to get to curiosity without slowing.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: We have to slow down.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: And so pick a practice that slows you and, and let it be small to start. Because. Because, yeah, you know, when curiosity becomes part of some sort of self improvement plan, like no, no quicker way to kill it off.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Right, right, right. Well, I think then too, pairing that with the idea of like you have to intentionally go in going, I'm not looking for the right answer here.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: Giving yourself permission to totally.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, there's some posture to that that's like almost pre work.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: All right, Meredith. Well, we are going to have a whole entire other conversation on your sub stack where we're going to answer listener kid questions. But I want to start with just one right here from Jacob, who is three years old.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Three.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: And Jacob wants to know how does
[00:40:33] Speaker A: God's words come down to earth? And how does. And how do they hear it? And I love this question, Jacob, because we don't really know.
We have stories where people say they heard God's voice and I don't know what they heard. Do you think it sounded like my voice right now? Do you think it sounded different?
What do you think God's voice sounds like? And if we were talking, we would play voices right now. Right. Is it this or is it that?
Maybe they felt something. And maybe we say they heard it, but it's like they felt it deep inside them and they just knew it was God.
It was like when air fills up a balloon.
And so we don't know exactly what that means happened. We just know that once they heard from God, they had a sense of something that they were supposed to do or that they were invited to do and they said yes. What was the other part of Jacob's question? He had a second thing. How'd they come down?
[00:41:28] Speaker B: How did the words come down? And how did they hear it?
[00:41:30] Speaker A: How did they hear it?
Yeah, sometimes people say they hear from God and it's almost like they have a new picture in their mind that they didn't think up. And sometimes people say they hear from God and it's like they have a really particular feeling, like right in the middle of them.
And sometimes people hear God just like you're hearing my voice. But that doesn't seem to happen super often right now. And I don't know why.
And sometimes people hear words inside their mind that they don't think were their words.
There's all these different ways God speaks to us. And one really fun thing is that when you hear Bible stories, you hear all these different kinds because God really likes to connect with all of us. And so I think God does different things for different people.
And one of the fun things is your grownup is there to help you as you get to know what God's voice sounds like too.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
My favorite person in the whole world. I just could, like, I'm like the kindergarten teacher is just like, oh my gosh, this is the best. I love it so much.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: You have this thing that's a great thing. It's just.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: But it's that we do. I mean if back. Back to grown up. It's a great question. And we don't know.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:44] Speaker A: So don't try to give sweet 3 year old Jacob a prescriptive answer for how God speaks to all people. God does indeed speak in lots of ways. And discernment and wisdom to use adult words are about knowing what's really God and knowing what's us and knowing when God is saying to us, use your own smarts and critical thinking, kiddo, because I love you and you're equipped to go do your thing in the world. Like that's all part of it. And so onboarding a kid with. There are many. I'm here to help you learn.
That's, that's the fun.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: Because why be afraid to miss God's voice? God's. God's too kind and gracious for us to have to be afraid we'll miss God's voice.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: So yay.
[00:43:27] Speaker B: I think just don't over complicate it. I think we can talk to our kids about so many things and the answer comes and we just figure it out and we don't feel like we have to have it perfectly. And then when it comes to scripture, we're like, oh, I don't know what to say.
[00:43:39] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:43:40] Speaker B: Just talk to them like you had talked to them about anything else.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: So yes. Totally. No. And to your earlier question of like what hangs them up, it's like literally like I can't, I don't know what the words are. I can't find the words. It's like, oh, you got, we got to find that freedom to be like, oh, you don't got to be perfectionistic on this.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:43:54] Speaker A: Like conversation is better than no conversation. Clumsy conversation is better than no conversation.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And listen there. And the kids are not sitting there with the right answer being like, no,
[00:44:04] Speaker A: actually I checked and you're wrong.
[00:44:08] Speaker B: Maybe At a certain age, they will, they will do that.
Well, you guys can go over to Meredith Subsack. I will link it up for the rest of all of the kid questions before we do that. Meredith, last question for you because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:44:27] Speaker A: Well, some of the people around us who are part of the church are young.
And so becoming church means recognizing as adults that kids aren't future church. Kids are part of church.
And that means that we take really seriously what it is to be a community that raises young people well, not just raises them in faith, but raises them to be sure that they belong in our communities and we're glad they're there and raises them to help, help them become whoever God made them to be. Not what culture has marked as successful or status giving, not what would make their family feel less anxious for them, but who, whoever they actually are that, you know, raising young people well means we, we are following Jesus together and we, we care what they contribute.
And the fundamental posture that unfortunately marks so much of the church is that kids are someone else's problem, they are the children's ministries problem or they are the parents problem or they are the next generation once they're grown ups. Like there's so much pushing off of kids aren't my thing or that's for someone else.
That really misses who we're supposed to be together and it also misses the contribution of what kids will bring because we never care or listen accidentally. We don't care sometimes for not mean reasons because we're busy, because our lives are full, because we feel.
But, but yeah, the, the church is not the grownups.
And so tending, tending to young people and being communities that raise young people well, especially now. Right. Like we are not we, we in the Western U.S. or Western culture in the U.S. in yeah.
We are in a culture that values young people or raises them well.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: And so if a church will, that's actually a really huge gift to a kid and to the other adults who live closer to them and love them. Like to say we really genuinely just want good for you and we will slow ourselves down enough to tend to that alongside you. Like that's, that's a huge offering actually too.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: And to value, to have them see their value not only as people but in the church. We have recently added a couple youth to our, our worship team.
And I'm talking like I think we had a kid play bass last Sunday who's 10.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: And he played bass for the whole. And it wasn't. Somebody was like, oh, is it Youth Sunday? We put him in on Youth Sunday. And I'm like, no, we put them in when they want to play that. So he played bass. And we have another girl who I think is 13 who's gonna learn vocals and she's like, they're just gonna join the worship team because they have gifts and talents and skills.
[00:47:28] Speaker A: Like what? And they're part of this church.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: It's exactly right.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Well, thank you friend. I'm going to link up both Woven and Wonder. Guys, go get it. I'm not even kidding. I say all the time. I'm like, you might want to read. You want this book? You want it? Go get it, right?
[00:47:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: Buy it for someone else if you don't have kids. But thank you for being here.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: If you want to foster your own curiosity and wonder, get in a conversation with a younger person. It can be a 3 year old, a 13 year old, or a 23 year old, but if you can slow down enough to listen to their wonderings, it will definitely get your own brain thinking. Which is always a maybe not so secret goal of this podcast as well. To hear Meredith answer your kids questions like what does it mean to be born again again? Or how does God's existence fit in with science? Or why didn't Adam and Eve listen? Head over to the shared post that we have together on Substack. You can find mine at Turning the Gem or Meredith's at Kids and Faith. Both of them are linked in the show notes. You can sign up for Substack to follow us or just pop on over to hear the wisdom in her answers. Until next time, thanks so much for listening. Be sure to share this episode with some someone who has little people that they love and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
