The Gospel of Being Human with Marty Solomon

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young and my guest today is someone who is actually no longer just a guest, but now a friend. It is Marty Solomon. He's a Jewish follower of Jesus who will give us insight into the Hebrew mind. He's also an author, theologian, and all around great person to talk with. So I know you'll enjoy this conversation with Marty. Marty Solomon. Welcome back to Becoming Church. [00:00:47] Speaker A: I love anytime I get to hear welcome back. I love making new friends. But when I get to come back, that means people enjoyed the friendship. [00:00:55] Speaker B: So thanks for having me for sure. And listen, you and I, like, we didn't really know each other last time we chatted, but now I feel like there's a bit of a friendship there. So it's even more fun now. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. Which might be more dangerous, but we'll see. I'll try to. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Or more exciting. We're going to find out. Well, yeah, you were here just over two years ago for actually episode 58 at the end of 2023 to talk about your book Asking Better Questions of the Bible. And so now we're here for the follow up, the Gospel of Being Human. How asking Better Questions of the Bible Reveals who We are. And so my first question for you is, was this always an intended follow up to the other book or did it kind of just like come to life as people began to investigate scripture? [00:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think in the back of my mind there was always a stream of consciousness, but I did not know, is the author thing gonna work? Am I any good at writing books? Are people gonna buy books? As I don't know if this is gonna work and they didn't know if it was gonna work and I didn't know if it was gonna work. So it was kind of like this first date. But then after we discovered like, okay, I think, I think I enjoyed it. They enjoyed it. Feels like people are interested then if the first book stood on its own, we were going to be okay. But in my brain there is a three book stream of consciousness. So there's another one that I got to start. I'm a little bit behind. I got to start writing on the rough draft for book three as we speak. But this book was. There's this idea in evangelicalism that I appreciate. I was raised with like the Bible says it and that's it. Which is great. But what does the Bible really say? Because evangelicals Will do anything if we think the Bible teaches something. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:36] Speaker A: So there's a stream of consciousness that starts with the Bible. Let's make sure we're reading the Bible. Well, yeah. Now let's look at our theology and ask whether or not our theology has actually been informed by good readings of the Bible. And then hopefully. And this gets ahead of ourselves. But that third book will be. And maybe that makes us more loving people. We want our theology to facilitate empathy, facilitate compassion, the fruit of the spirit. And if our theology is not doing that, it might be because we're asking the wrong questions of the Scriptures. [00:03:06] Speaker B: So maybe, just maybe, if the second book is going to help us look at ourselves, then maybe, just maybe, this third book would help us to look at our relationships and the way we operate in the world. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah. My clever titles were originally asking better questions of the Bible, asking better questions of ourselves and asking better questions of others. But as publishers do, they're like, that's not gonna work. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Right. Okay, well, very exciting. Listen, and if we find out later that you weren't supposed to reveal that yet, we'll just bleep it. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Like, it'll bleep it. It'll be. Yeah, totally. It'll be great. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Well, Marty, early on in this book, you quote Ian, Leslie, and you talking about puzzles, you say that puzzles offer us the satisfaction of answering a question even while you're missing the point completely. And so before we even tackle that, what is the puzzle? Is it scripture or is it us? [00:03:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, but that's, that's a really. You phrased that question really well. What is the puzzle? I think that's great. I think that's actually part of the problem. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Western, Western thinking creates an abstract problem that then we project onto the Scripture. So what is the, like, that's the whole nature of philosophy. And that's not a bad thing. Philosophy is beautiful. We, Western philosophy is fine, but it definitely has given us a particular relationship to theology because we create a puzzle and then go to the Bible to solve the puzzle. And what it ends up doing is it tells the Bible to meet us on our terms, rather than us going to the Bible to meet it on its terms. And what we'll find, like that part you're referencing is puzzle versus mystery. We love puzzles because there's a payoff. We love puzzles because you can solve them. Like we're used to a world where there's a 22 minute sitcom episode where there's a plot that gets resolved. We love puzzles. Mysteries, they, they're not Solvable. There's a payoff, but it's not in the resolution. There's a payoff in the experience of going. Going into the mystery. And. And I think that is. That's probably where some of that. That dance between puzzle, abstract philosophy, all that probably dances with our theology. [00:05:20] Speaker B: Well, I just picture it as like, yeah, we go to the Bible for a puzzle, right. We expect that there's going to be this one piece of just the right shape that's going to fit. But actually, the pieces that scripture gives us, like, morph, they change all the time. So even if we think we've found the right scripture, sometimes it's like, as soon as we put it in, then we go, wait a minute, like, why did this change? How did this shift? [00:05:42] Speaker A: Yep, absolutely 100%. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Well, what is the point? You know, you said that like, we're trying to answer the question while missing the point completely. What is the point that you think most people are missing? [00:05:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we're used to a world that has made the point about the problem. The problem is sin. And the sin problem has separated us from God, and we've got to solve that. And so that ends up becoming the point of almost everything that we look at. Every story we read. We keep trying to get back to, how does this. How does this speak to the problem? Yeah, which is. Which is a problem. I gotta be really careful as I talk about this book because I never want people to hear what I'm not saying, which is that sin isn't a thing. Rebellion's not a part of our story. Brokenness isn't a part of being human. That's not at all my point. But is the Bible? Yes. Sin is there. Yes. That's a reality. It's definitely a part of the world that we experience that we participate. We both have harmed and been harmed. We know what both sides of those things are like. But is the story from the very opening page about God saying, is the point you are loved and valued and accepted and beloved? Like, right now, I wasn't planning on saying this, Kristen, but right this morning, I'm doing research for that next book, and I'm reading When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck and like, the point he keeps making is the healing that a narcissist needs is not like we think they love themselves too much, but they don't actually love themselves at all. That's what make. That's what feeds their narcissism. That's the message of our human brokenness is always this Search of whether or not we're. Does God are we beloved or are we. Are we separated? Are we cursed or are we embraced? And I think that's what we're trying to. Maybe, and I don't even know. Maybe I'm not even right. But I just love opening the conversation up and letting it breathe and going, have we gotten the point wrong or at least oversimplified it? [00:07:40] Speaker B: I'm gonna jump ahead, Marty, because I'm so thrilled that you brought this up, because last time you were here, you blew my mind with this whole thing we were talking about, like, Genesis 3 versus Genesis 1 and where we start the story and exactly what you just talked about, how it forms what we believe about our identity in Christ. Have you gotten. Because I have. I have shared this so many times, and I always credit you, and I try to explain it well, but I get pushback. Have you gotten pushback from people when you talk about, you know, sin. Sin, nature and our belovedness and all of that? [00:08:12] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes. And I think I talk about it so much in my world that it's probably helped me get better at how do I frame this in a way that is helpful. There's a young version of me that loved to be provocative, and I love to say things in a way that actually got that response. And as I've grown and I want to pastor people, well, I think I've been like, okay, wait a minute. Can I say that same thing? That's just as powerful, but maybe greases the skids of, like, understanding better. And I think I have gotten a lot of pushback, but I think I've also been able to learn over time how to have those conversations in a way that minimizes it. [00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:55] Speaker A: And that's good. [00:08:56] Speaker B: I had a post it for a while, stuck right to my laptop, that just said, try another way or say it another way. Because that's what God is like. Yes, but very much no. Like, say this, not like that. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Correct. Absolutely. Yep. That sounds like one of my earliest mentors had. I wrote my first sermon for this new job I had at a church, and he pushed it right back across the desk after looking at it for about 20 seconds. And he didn't use those exact words, but he essentially said, preach this sermon, but write it again. Yeah. [00:09:29] Speaker B: Different lens. Different lens. [00:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:31] Speaker B: Well, with that whole idea. Right. Of our belovedness and of sin and all of that, how does understanding, like, our human culpability seep into the way that we see other people as well? [00:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So I have I have this. This prayer that I say every morning before my workday starts, before I walk into my office, and I say, I am not loved and valued today because of what I do and produce. And should I fail today in large or small ways, it will not affect my worth. I will still be loved and valued. I am simply beloved. And I came up with that prayer with my therapist, and we just say that. I say that at least four, five, six times every morning, slowly. I even say it backwards one time just to mix it up. But it's this. It's this grounding prayer to remind me of what's true about me. And it wasn't that long ago. Well, actually, I'll tell you what. Exactly when it was, but I won't say it on the episode. I can remember exactly the day that I. I added a line to the very end because I was really struggling with. [00:10:36] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:37] Speaker A: With hatred. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:38] Speaker A: I was really struggling with, like, ooh, there are people that I'm very angry with. And. And I added a line at the very end that said, and so is everyone else. If this is true about me. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:50] Speaker A: It's just as true about my enemy. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:54] Speaker A: If this is true about me because I'm human being, it's not true of me because I'm Marty. It's true of me because I'm a human being and part of God's good creation. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:03] Speaker A: And my name is Marty, and he loves me very much. Yeah. Then it's also true about so and so. And their name is so and so. And they're. Yes, they're human and they're broken, but so am I. There's a chapter in this book that Reid wrote, okay. About David and the Psalms and about how David is like, save me from the one who sheds blood. And then David, later in his life, writes another psalm that basically, it doesn't undo. It just. It reflects in the opposite. He's like, I am the one who sheds blood. Like, as he's grow. It's that whole. I have both been harmed and done harm, and that's the complexity of what it means to be human. You use the word culpability like, yep, I have. I have participated in rebellion. I have been rebelled against. I am also the crowning image and reflection of God, and so is the one who I. I war against. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:58] Speaker A: And so I think. I think that's part of what sets up that third part of the conversation next. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think it's so easy right now, especially to fall into that. Right. Where we look at People, I would say even Christians specifically, or other Christians specifically, where we just. It is so easy to go, no, you're doing it wrong. And to be so adamant and probably at least partly right, Marty, if we're being honest, like, no, this is not actually the way of Jesus. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Yep, yep. [00:12:26] Speaker B: And having to then step back and remember, okay, they are made in the same imago day of God, just like we are. And when Jesus says, love your enemies, maybe that's actually who he was talking about. You know, whoever we're finding, like you said, hatred or anger in our heart. Like, yeah, that's it. [00:12:43] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Well, I think a lot of Christians do think that our humanity is part of the problem. Like, if only we weren't human. If only we weren't sinful and broken. If only we could, you know, sacrifice our fleshly desires, like, everything would be better. What do you think it looks like to reclaim our humanity instead of vilifying it? [00:13:03] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. I have loved what I've learned from Jewish wisdom and that Hebraic perspective in this regard, because we have been told in the Western world through the lens of Western theology that being human is bad news. Like, well, that means we're fallen. That means we're depraved. That means we're broken. That means we're sinful. Being human is always associated with a bad thing. We say things like, well, I'm only human. And what we mean is, well, I'm going to fail. I'm going to fall short. Humanity has such a negative connotation. All the things we just talked about and listed are true, our sinfulness. But as Genesis tells the story, being human is an unbelievably good thing. Being human is good news. Like the very story that we read to learn about what we call the Fall, Adam and Eve. We see it as a story of when sin enters the world. From the Jewish perspective, they don't even. Like I can remember not too long ago when I discovered that Judaism, Jewish theology doesn't even have the concept of the Fall. Like the Fall as a Christian, Western, Christian theological construct. Yeah. Not sinfulness, just the idea of all humanity falling for the Jewish mind. The story of an Adam and Eve is not about how sin entered the world. It's about why we all sin in the first place. And the reason we sin in the story of Adam and Eve in the Jewish mind is because we don't claim our full humanity. We act like an animal, we act like a beast. But if we were truly human, it's not humanity that Makes us sin. Humanity is the thing we don't claim to make us like because it's the part, it's being human that makes us the reflection, the image of God. And Adam and Eve don't claim their humanity. They claim their beast like appetites. And, and that wisdom in and of itself is like, wait a minute, being human is good news. Being human is the thing that makes me unbeast. Like, it makes me more like God. An ability to reflect God to the world is because I'm human. A deer can't do that. My dog can't do that. He's awesome, by the way. But there's something very special about being. It's good. Being human is good news. I am broken. But my humanity is the good part of me, not the bad part of me. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Marty, what, what would you say to someone listening who is like, sir, that is heretical to say that our humanness makes us more like God as opposed to, you know, the complete opposite. Like, what would you, what, what evidence would you use? [00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know. We could, if we wanted to stay in the realm of classical theology, we could talk about, okay, we can't affirm all the pieces. What we're, what we're going to argue about is how you order them. Like we can affirm the fact that. I don't know anybody that's going to typically argue that we're not all made in the image of God. Like, part of being human is to be an image bearer. I also don't know too many people that are honestly not going to say we're also sinful. So we're all working with the same pieces. But it's how we're going to order those pieces and say, okay, the sin, the sin completely distorted the image of Godness and now becomes the defining characteristic. Or is the, is the image of Godness the defining characteristic? And sin is a part of that. What is the greater reality that contains the other? And if we really wanted to argue that with somebody, I would say this is a Hebrew story written by a Hebrew author to a Hebrew audience. So what did that. And that goes back to the first book. What did the original author mean when they wrote it? And what did the original audience hear? Because I know what Augustine said, okay, because that's what we're leaning on. We're leaning on Christian theology shaped by Augustine, shaped by classical Western Christian theologians, which aren't wrong or bad. But Augustine came up with that. Is that what Moses or whoever we want to say for the book? Is that what Genesis meant? Is that what the audience of Genesis heard? If not, is Augustine have an incomplete. How do we adjust that? What is the inspired meaning of this text? And what is good hermeneutics? And there's that how asking better questions of the Bible reveals who we are subtitle. Yeah, because am I asking the right or am I assuming what I learned later in the story? Am I really reading the story as the story was meant to be heard? Inspired by God? [00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Marty, I'm going to link up both of your books and our previous conversation so people can go back and listen. I don't want to rehash the whole thing, but really quickly for somebody listening who maybe did not read the first book, you know, they're just now finding you and maybe having their own light bulb moment for the first time of like, maybe I'm not understanding the story completely. What would you encourage them to do when they open their Bibles or look at those familiar scriptures? [00:17:54] Speaker A: I think the big idea, if we can, and I know that when I say this, people are going to be like, but I'm not equipped to ask that question. That's okay. This whole thing is a big long journey that starts with a single book, a single step, a single question, a single lesson. Some of us are students and some of us aren't. That's all a part of it. But asking the question about authorial intent is what we were just talking about a moment ago. What did the author mean when they wrote this? Here's my assumption, Kristen. My assumption is I believe in the inspiration of the Word of God. So my understanding is the inspired meaning of the word of God, of the Bible is contained between the original conversation that's had between author and audience. So when Paul writes his letter to the Philippians, that conversation between Paul and the Philippians is the inspired conversation. My job as a Bible interpreter is to make sure I'm perceiving that inspired conversation as accurately as I can. So the question underneath it all then is, what did the author mean when they wrote this? And what did the audience hear when they heard it? Now a lot of people, if this is that first time they're here and it's like, I don't know what the answers to those questions are. Yeah. But we live in this unbelievable age of and. And there's a pro and a con. The Internet. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:10] Speaker A: And there's all kinds of garbage out there. But when you learn how to ask the right questions, use the Internet well, know how to use resources, know how to Pers. Discern the things you're studying you. That starts bit by bit by bit. The Talmud has the saying that says, just as rain falls and drops and becomes mighty rivers, so it is with the study of Torah. A person learns a little here and a little there until understanding comes like a rushing stream. And I. I just love that image. Yes. It feels daunting. One drop at a time. [00:19:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:45] Speaker A: And you will look back in 15 years and go, holy cow. The journey I've been on, that I never perceived in the moment, but. But it's real. [00:19:54] Speaker B: And would you say part of that river? You know, going back to the idea of, like, Right. We love a puzzle, we love an answer. But some of those drops are not actually answers, but more like you said, the experience. Or more just an understanding of, I won't have an answer. Those can. That can still be making up the same river, right? [00:20:12] Speaker A: Yep. Yep, I do. And I. And it doesn't work on a fixed timeline. And it's not the same for everybody. Right. I was just in an interview just earlier this week that was in a space where it was like, okay, but what can I be sure of which I can remember being in that space. And I don't mean to say that, like, oh, and I. And I grew way past that. I'm so far beyond that. But I probably still go to spaces where I'm like, okay, but can I put my anchor down into anything? Or is everything Wish. Like, I get that. But along the way, you're like, I just don't care about those anchor points the same way I used to. I become far more fascinated with something else rather than certainty of salvation. Or am I going to go somewhere when I die? Or all these things that I used to like, okay, but I have to know those things. Right. It's like those anchor points shifted to like, who is God? What is he like? And we find our way, and that's part of the journey. We won't be there tomorrow, but we'll get there eventually. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, wrapping up the idea about our humanity, you know, let's fast forward to the New Testament. Where do we see Jesus actually affirming our humanity not necessarily as this big, bad, sinful thing. [00:21:25] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. Especially one of my favorite gospels is the Gospel of Matthew. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:29] Speaker A: And anybody that knows our podcast will know that I talk about Matthew as the Gospel of the mumser, which is this poetic description of the outcast. And. And one of the things you just keep finding is Jesus. All these people, like, in this biblical world, I'd say Jewish world, but it's not a Jewish thing. It's a religious thing. It just so happens that Jesus's religious world was a Jewish world. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Okay? [00:21:50] Speaker A: But we do this in Christianity. Any religious people group does this. There is this. This is what the normal person looks like. This is what blessed people look like. And then there's all these people who aren't blessed. The leper or the Roman or all these people that were outsiders, the unclean or whatever it might be, or the trader, the tax collector. And the whole Gospel of Matthew is just Jesus going, humanity, human. Like, we phrase it different in the podcast, but in terms of your question, it's like, that person's a human. That person's a human. That person's human. Here's another one that I thought of that came up in another podcast. Jesus gets confronted by the Pharisees late in the Gospel of Matthew and other gospels as well. And the Pharisees come and they say, when are we able to send our wives away? That's how you translate that question. When can we send our wives away? Which is the phrase they use for divorce. They're asking, when are we allowed to divorce our wives? But the phrase is send them away? Which the language is not. That's not humanity language. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:58] Speaker A: That's possession language. To which Jesus's response is, you can't do that. Like, what? What God. And he goes back to Genesis. What God has joined together, let no one separate. Which we turn into, like this ethical God hates divorce. Which I'm not going to propose that God loves divorce. That's not. But that's not the point of the. That's not the point of the story. The point of the story is humanity. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Like, she's not a piece of property. She is fully human. You can't just send her away. She's a human. She is your other half. To which they're like, well, Moses gave us a right of divorce. To which he's like, yes, because the world is a broken place. But you cannot. She is a full fledged human being. There's a humanity that he affirms that we turn into an ethical code. But it's not about the ethical code. It's about the humanity of the people we're talking about that Jesus is so wound up about. So Jesus embodies in so many ways. It's like every story we read of Jesus is him seeing the humanity. And to flip it, to make me uncomfortable, Kristin, to flip it. He does the same thing with Pharisees. [00:24:09] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. [00:24:11] Speaker A: They're the villains, they're the evil, self righteous churchy people. And Jesus goes, and he has dinner because he doesn't. Self righteous churchy people. He sees a human being made in God's image who needs dinner with Jesus just as much as the prostitute and the tax collector. And there's just this. It's not bad guys and good guys. It's just human beings. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:36] Speaker A: Loved by God. And, and again, all that other stuff matters, but just sees their humanity. What a model and an example for us to, to see. [00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah, man, we need a little more of that these days, huh? I mean. Good night. I did not realize that Matthew was the one that has most of those stories in it. I think I just pull the stories one at a time and I, I have never made that connection that like, he's the one that's got the collection [00:25:00] Speaker A: of those which, when you, when you think about it, makes sense. He's a tax collector. Like of all the things he experienced from Jesus, it was. I was a lost cause. I'm done. I'm, I have, I'm a, I'm a traitor of all traders. And Jesus called me in. And so when, when Matthew tells the story of Jesus, that's what he noticed. And so when you read it, it's like Roman centurion, leper, unclean woman. A religious person that doesn't want what God's doing. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:27] Speaker A: And then it's an outsider. An outsider. An outsider. And then a religious person who doesn't want what God's doing. [00:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:33] Speaker A: And the same message throughout the entire gospel. And it's a really fun read. [00:25:37] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome. Well, listen, maybe we all need to read Matthew in 2026. Everybody put your Bible out. We're doing, we're doing a group study. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Yep. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Well, Marty, in your book you write about curiosity, attention and wonder. And so what are you hoping that these might be the antidote to in like current Christianity? [00:25:57] Speaker A: Oh, that, that's the best way somebody's phrased that question. Thank you. [00:26:00] Speaker B: Great. [00:26:02] Speaker A: I, I used to say this on book tour with my first book. The reason we do what we do is because the way that we do it is because evangelicals, I feel like, have been told we know everything about everything. [00:26:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:15] Speaker A: We just know everything about everything. We've been right about everything. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah. We were taught about apologetics. Always be ready to have an answer because we're the ones that have the truth. Everybody else is stupid. So we have this sense of certainty. Our theology is built around certainty. I think of Pete Enns Writing books about the sin of certainty. Other authors like we have this relationship to knowing we know what that does is it means if we know, I am not noticing all the things that I don't know. And so curiosity, attention and wonder is a part of what it means to be human. We're wired to be curious. And curiosity opens the door for us to actually we tell the story in the book of the Rabbis teaching about Moses and the burning bush because Moses sees a burning bush, that's fine and that's crazy. But Moses notices that the bush isn't being consumed. You're going to have to look at the bush for a while before you notice the bush is not being consumed. You've got to give attention to that situation. And so. And then you got to open yourself up, wonder like you've got to open yourself up to like maybe my bucket, maybe there's so many things outside my bucket that I don't even understand and realize. So curiosity, intention and wonder. Is this antidote to a very anemic closed off that keeps us, I mean that's the story. I don't want to go back to Matthew again. But that's the, that's the warning of Matthew is all of these Pharisees are like, no, we got it. We understand how God works. And Jesus is like, God's bigger than that. God's doing more than you think. And it's not that you've got it necessarily all wrong, but it is certainly incomplete and it's way too small. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:53] Speaker A: How will we ever open ourselves if that's true for us today at all, how will we ever open ourselves up to that? We have to be more comfortable with curiosity rather than certainty, with attention rather than assumption, with wonder rather than, I don't know, assuredness. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Those are movements that will make us healthier followers of God rather than little people trying to play God. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think the curiosity, attention and wonder take us back to the whole as opposed to the how. Right. Like our certainty and our self righteousness and our religion and all of that is let me check all these boxes and do the to dos and do everything rightly so that I can make sure that I'm a good guy or going to heaven or whatever. And it makes it about us instead of about God and who it is that we're supposed to be giving all of this attention and praise to to begin with. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Yep, yep. Absolutely. I love that that's come up in a lot of our other conversations is just whatever can facilitate more relationship and less abstract this isn't a thought exercise, this thing that we're doing in faith. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:04] Speaker A: This is a living. The living, resurrected Christ. This is a God who is very much in love with us. And he is not distant and disconnected. He is permeating all spheres of our cosmos and whatever we understand about the world. And so I love the point you just made because it really speaks to that dynamic relational relationship. [00:29:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, Marty, you use stories and storytelling as a way to frame how we understand ourselves a lot in this book. And I laughed out loud at your point where you talked about Narnia and the Bachelor telling us two different things about our lives. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:43] Speaker B: As someone who loves, unfortunately, both of those franchises. That was a really great. Really great point. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That was. Unfortunately. I'd love to take credit for that. I'm almost positive that was a Reid chapter. And, boy, he has. He'll say things sometimes, and I'm like, oh, gosh, keep that just like it is, because it is fantastic. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Well, how do you think people are finding themselves in the stories in scripture? But maybe in an incomplete way. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love the term incomplete. That's the. It's not wrong. It's just. It's just stunted or. Or incomplete. And I think we're always. Because to go back to the very beginning where we started. If everything is about. If the point is about the problem and solving the problem, then we always associate in the story with the problem and the solution, rather than that wonder of, okay, if the story and the problem is still a problem and all those things are still there, but if the point is actually about God and the world and who he is and who we are and what he's up to and how I relate to that. Well, now I've got to open up my mind to, like, what are all the layers and nuances and complexities of the story? What is it? Is it just about the broken human that's a sinner that needs to be. There's a story, and there's always, like, take the. The Prodigal Son, which is a story we all know and love, and we almost always immediately associate in that story as the Prodigal son, because we are the sinner who's been forgiven. [00:31:13] Speaker B: Sure. [00:31:14] Speaker A: And if we've been around enough, we may have been taught to, like, hey, consider whether or not you're the elder brother. But there's still, like, this association with what broken me is showing up in the story rather than, like, okay, now, wait a minute. There's all these things happening in this story. And it is about the prodigal, but it's very. It's even more so about the elder brother. It's even more so about the Father, and it's even more so about how those pieces are showing up in that point in religious history with these Pharisees who aren't doing the thing that God called them to do. So now God's having to show up in the person of Jesus to do what the Pharisees won't do. So now it's not just which sinner do I associate with, but now I'm in the story going, okay, wait a minute. Is this true for us today? Have we done this? Who is God in our own narratives? Are we finding the prodigals? And I love that shift to, I assume I'm the prodigal, to, where are the prodigals? [00:32:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:13] Speaker A: And that. That's a shift. That. That depends on how I see myself in the story in a more complete way. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I love. I think we talked about the chosen last time you were here, because, Marty, spoiler alert. I love it. But that's one of the things that I love about it, is the way that they just kind of use a holy imagination to create additional characters that maybe did not live in scripture, but some version of them surely existed. [00:32:35] Speaker A: Sure. [00:32:36] Speaker B: You know? [00:32:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yep. [00:32:37] Speaker B: And it's helped me to actually read scripture that when I go through. Yes. I'm not always making myself the hero or the villain, but, like, what if I was actually a bystander? I know I go back to, like, the bleeding woman who touches Jesus? The hem of his robe. [00:32:50] Speaker A: Yep. [00:32:50] Speaker B: Like, what if I wasn't her? And what if I wasn't Jesus, but I was someone watching it, like, you know, and just being able to think about things from so many different perspectives, it does. It changes what we take away. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm in grad work right now at Xavier University. I'm trying to learn from the Ignatian Jesuit tradition. And they're really big on imaginative prayer. And one of the things that they often do is exactly what you just described. A lot of us probably have even experienced somebody leading us in an imaginative prayer exercise. But you have this story that you're familiar with, and somebody's reading it and leading you through the story. But your job is to usually close your eyes and associate with some other character in the room. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Cool. [00:33:31] Speaker A: And hear the. What do you hear? What do you smell? What is the feeling? And it does. It just teaches you to associate with story in a Unique way other than the abstract, what's the proposition and what's the theological premise I'm taking out of this? Yeah. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Was there, Marty, a story for you in particular, either while you were writing this or just in life as you're going through and reading, where a story has really, like, stuck out to you once you were able to kind of identify as someone different? [00:34:07] Speaker A: Boy, that's a great question. I don't know if it's. I mean, every time Reid Dent talks about the wisdom literature, it's impactful for me because I have avoided wisdom literature. I don't do the Psalms well. I don't do proverbs well. I don't know, to be honest. I don't know. I think it's because of my fundamentalist upbringing and everything's about. I love narrative and story because there's a proposition to come out of it. And these songs, like, I love art and good music, but I don't know, like, what's the theological proposition that I'm supposed to get out of that? Or Proverbs are awkward and clunky, and I don't know how to. They just. They don't fit as well. So I'm just kind of like. Yeah, just kind of like wisdom literature, like. And. And Reid has really helped me grow in my ability to. And so I think as he was writing about. And. And. And it wasn't just as he was writing this chapter about the Psalms. That chapter comes out of a. A sermon series he did at his local ministry, which was also a series on our podcast. Like, I've watched him engage the Psalms and. And the way he engages what David is articulating and who David is makes me go, oh, there's. There is a beauty about self reflection in the Psalms. The Psalms aren't just sing this worship song. The songs are. There may be more squishy, fluid, living and active than any other part of the Bible, which is probably why I struggle with it. But, boy, that psalm has legs. It can challenge me over here. And I don't want to say condemn, but really confront me with my sinfulness. And the same psalm three weeks later can remind me of my belovedness. And the same song can call me to action, to love my neighbor. So I think that's part of what I've continued to learn and grow in. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Cool. [00:36:07] Speaker A: And. Yeah, all right. [00:36:09] Speaker B: We've talked about certainty. We've talked about our humanity as being something to be afraid of. I think another thing that Christians tend to. I don't know. I'm going to say fear, you know, be at least weary of is culture. How does ask, you know, it's that idea of right, of like, be in the world, not of it, and so therefore we're holy. Or it's like very much not. How does asking better questions help us to engage with culture instead of like naively withdrawing from it? [00:36:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I think on one level, we're going to find a Bible full of stories of people engaging culture. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Okay. [00:36:46] Speaker A: As we were like, okay, Abraham was not setting up a holy huddle. Abraham was leaning into some of the deepest chaos in a world where he doesn't have a church, he doesn't have a synagogue. Yeah, he's it. And he is in the world in a way that he's, he's gonna, he's gonna lean in and engage. He's gonna go for it. So I think, I think that's part of it. I think if we work out the muscles of curiosity, intention and wonder, I think we'll realize those aren't just hermeneutical muscles. Those are, or maybe, or may. This is gonna probably sound too, too woo woo for people. But maybe hermeneutics isn't just about the Bible. Maybe hermeneutics is also about reading and interpreting what God's doing in the world. I kind of like that I'm going to have to steal that. [00:37:33] Speaker B: It's your thing. [00:37:35] Speaker A: I don't know why I just said steal my own thing. But part of what I'm learning in that Ignatian Jesuit study at Xavier is Ignatian spirituality is always asking the question, trying to discern what is God doing in the world and how am I going to partner up with that? And I'm realizing it feels very hermeneutical to me because you're in the same way that you would read scripture, you're also trying to read the room, the cultural room, and discern that. And so maybe working out those curiosity. One of the things that I'll try not to get off on a rabbit trail here, but one of the things that I often talk about, I heard a pastor once talk about there's always a triangulation that we're called to between the word we live by, the world we live in, and the work we're called to work, Word, world. And you always have to discern all three of those things. And so much of what we're talking about is the Word. And that Word will help give us the work that we're called to. But then there's that third part you're asking about. Which is okay. But the world. And we don't usually spend much time. We know the world. It's the dark, broken, scary, bad place that doesn't need to be discerned. But there's a discerning work about what's happening in the world. And now that I know the work that I'm called to do because of the Word, what am I going to go do in the world? And we ought to get better at that. That's probably something we are not typically as good at as we are other things. [00:39:00] Speaker B: Well, I'll risk taking it a little too far and say that if we are not actually engaging the world, kind of the Word is useless. And the Word is not actually there. The work's not actually happening. Because, yes, it can change us. I mean, that would be the argument. Right. Well, the Word is transforming us as people from the inside out, which. Great. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Yep. [00:39:22] Speaker B: But if you then don't do something differently, if you don't live differently, did the work actually happen? I think. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Correct. Yep. Absolutely. And I think we got plenty of Old and New Testament passages that would speak to, you know, if you just say this and don't do anything about it, we are missing the point. [00:39:39] Speaker B: James is right in there. [00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:39:42] Speaker B: If someone has spent their entire life, Marty, or at least like their life as a follower of Jesus, trying to become less human in order to be more holy, what do you hope that this book gives them permission to do? [00:39:56] Speaker A: Yeah, part of the work. That's a great way to phrase that question. Part. Part of the work they're trying to do is beautiful, which is. But it's not to become less human. It's to become more human. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:11] Speaker A: So the thing that they're missing is they're starting to, like, shortchange themselves. Like, if I could become less of me and more of, like, some, I guess, soulless, faceless identity. Less. Like there's this idea that what Jesus does is he, like. I can't tell you how many times I've heard evangelical teachers say, when God looks at you, he doesn't see you, he sees Jesus. If you're in Christ. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Which I'm like, yikes. No, when God looks at me, he sees me and he loves me. And so that journey you just described as this person is trying to become less of themselves. And yes, we want to become more of the thing that God wanted us to be, but that thing that God wanted us to be is a more human thing. It is how he created us to be originally. If we need to say pre Fall in the garden. We were created as human beings, and that is what he wants us to be. So what that does is that means that journey is not to become less of myself, is to become more of myself, the more a better expression of who God's always wanted me to be. And when he sees me, he rejoices. When he sees me, he delights. When he sees me, he sees somebody that he loves. So becoming more of me, not less of me, hopefully, is a freeing experience. [00:41:34] Speaker B: Well, I think it requires a reframing too, of some biblical principles, you know, like back again, back to asking better questions. You know, where John is, like, less of me, more of him. I think it's easy for Christians to go, this is justification for all of my sinful, you know, all of my humanity is sinful and bad and. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Yep. [00:41:51] Speaker B: But maybe it doesn't mean exactly what we think that it has always meant. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yep. Yeah, I'm with you there 100%. [00:41:58] Speaker B: So is there, Is there one other question that you think of that you think maybe Christians often ask that would like, lead them in the wrong direction. Like, what's a wrong question? As we're trying to navigate this thing, [00:42:12] Speaker A: the wrong question about. And I'm thinking in terms of. Of about being human is probably. I mean, there's all, man, I'm probably cheating here. But the question of where is this all end? Where am I going when I die? Where it's always end rather than present. Yeah, it's always, I'm going to validate or the end is going to justify the means or whatever. What like that. Theologically, that does a lot of things rather than what does it mean to be alive right now in this space? Not where am I going? Not if I don't, then what then not am I saved and am I not saved? Not. We frame everything in terms of that end goal, which there's a place for that, I suppose. But we could ask better questions about, I'm breathing right now. I'm here right now. I'm alive right now in this space. And I hope that 10 years from now I can think about myself as I talk to you. I hope that 10, 15 years from now I am so much better of a husband, so much better of a leader, so much better as a father, even though my kids will have moved out and it'll be too late, but I still hope I'll be so much better of a human being than I am today. But I'm not 15 years from now. I'm now. And I can tell you that Jesus has done a big work in me and I'm better today than I was 10, 15 years ago by the grace of God. He shaped me and developed me and formed me. And so what am I being called? The steward? I love the word stewardship. What am I being called the steward right now in my relationships, in my vocation, in my job and my marriage and my hobbies, in my rest, in my self care. What are the things that I'm stewarding now? Right now? Because now is the thing that God is very much present in the now. He's not waiting for me in the future. Right. He is. Spoiler alert. But he'll be there when I get there. He's very much in the now with me. And I think now questions would be super helpful. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Well, again, word work. World, right? Like, doesn't matter now. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, I think we're. Yeah, I think we're bad at world questions because we have this disembodied evacuation theology, like some glad morning when this life is. Or I'll get out of here, the world's going to burn. So why would I ask questions about the world? I'm just going to do word and I guess work. But world, who cares, right? So I think, I think there is a physical participation that good theology invites us to in the present. [00:44:47] Speaker B: We'll get on book three right in that. Into the. Into that world. [00:44:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:44:52] Speaker B: Marty, last question for you. Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:45:01] Speaker A: In the spirit of this book, you could answer that question a lot of ways. Who knows how I answered it back in episode 50. Whatever. But. But in the spirit of this book, if we don't understand our own belovedness, that will seep out of us into everybody else. Like, accepting the good news for ourselves is a part of how the good news gets out of us, into the world around us. So becoming the church is being willing to become the beloved. Yeah. Becoming beloved. There you go. That's my. That'll be my short answer. [00:45:35] Speaker B: So beautiful. And it took me three years of therapy and, you know, me too, probably more than three. So many things. But I will. I am in agreement with you. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but it truly changed everything about the way I see God and myself and other people when I was able to accept that. So, yeah, absolutely. Well, I just love chatting with you. You're so full of wisdom and all the things. So thank you. I link up the book and your podcast. Do you guys have anything Fun. Coming up, season wise on Bama. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Oh, we just, we just did session 10 intro yesterday. [00:46:15] Speaker B: Excellent. [00:46:16] Speaker A: So we're getting ready for that. And, and we're going to be taking it slow. We're still kind of grieving the loss of one of our co hosts. We. Josh Posay passed away this November. December. November. It was the very end of November. And so we're trying to figure out what life for Bayma looks like without him. But we've got some fun plans for that season and ways to honor that absence. We're going to do season two reboot for everybody that's been following the reboots of seasons one through five. Season two is going to start sometime in this year and probably be done early 2027. So we got some fun stuff coming and it'll be great. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Good. Well, we'll link all that up. That was my introduction to you and I would have to talk about Take it slow. I would listen to one episode and then have my mind blown for like a week before I could go back into the next one. [00:47:07] Speaker A: Yeah, the beauty, the beauty of season 10 is we're going to go at about half speed. We're going to do every other week. And that gives people that need to catch up a little extra time. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Yes. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Or process. Yeah, absolutely. [00:47:24] Speaker B: Seriously, if you want to know more about the Box Bible, about how to know what the original author's intentions were or what culturally was happening at the time, you have got to check out Marty's podcast that he does with Brent Billings. It's called the Bama Discipleship Podcast. And holy moly, will it blow your mind in the best way. If you like to nerd out with like, facts and details that you don't likely hear in sermons except for mine sometimes, you will love their show and I've got it linked up up for you in the show notes. Also, if you found yourself nodding along when Marty and I chatted about certainty or you're intrigued by the idea of curiosity and wonder in Christianity, please make sure that you're following along with me at KristenMockler Young on social media because I have a book for you that will be available for pre order very soon and I would love for you to be one of the first people to read it. Until next time, thanks for listening, listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.