Shannan Martin: Holding Hope in a Heavy World

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Shannon Martin, who is back to Becoming Church to help us uncover where hope is hiding in plain sight and in this somewhat heavy timeline. And bonus, if you're in driving distance to Charlotte, Shannon is stopping by on her Counterweights book tour. You can hang out with Shannon, Emily P. Freeman, and maybe your favorite pastor podcaster by grabbing a ticket to Main street Books on April 9th. I put a link in the show notes to make it an easy find, and I would love to meet you there. Hi, Shannon. Welcome back to Becoming Church. [00:00:57] Speaker A: I'm so happy to be here, Kristen. Thank you. Yes. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Thrilled to have you. And you were on. Oh, I should have looked it up a couple years ago. And you're back to talk about a new book called Counterweights, which is coming out actually this week. [00:01:10] Speaker A: I know. I'm so excited. [00:01:12] Speaker B: I was going to say, how do you feel? Are you excited? Do you have mixed feelings? What is this like? [00:01:16] Speaker A: No, I am nothing but excited. I mean, I'm busy. My life is at, like, an accelerated pace right now. But I am thrilled for people to meet this book. I'm just really excited for people to. To read it, to engage with it. I think it's going to help a lot of people, so I'm really looking forward to it. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Yay. Well, I was happy enough to go through it this weekend. I got through most of it. And it is just the timing of God sometimes, right where I'm like, man, this is a book that we really need right now. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. Yep. [00:01:50] Speaker B: Well, we'll get into it in a second, but I want to do a quick little, like, Q and A first before we get into counterweights. And so one of the things that I loved is all through your book, like, after every chapter, you had either like, a fun list or a recipe or just some kind of what I would call, like, a little whimsical, like, extra. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a little counterweight. It is. It's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker B: But. And so I know that the process of writing a book is, like, you really wrote this probably last year, you know, and now it's finally coming to us. So I wanted to update a couple of them. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Okay, good. [00:02:21] Speaker B: So as of right now, what would you say is a favorite iconic combination of yours? [00:02:27] Speaker A: Oh, man. Okay, Right now, let me think. I have been on a big Fruit bender lately. I don't know why. I mean, I've always loved fruit, but this, this season I've just been like, I'm craving it. Okay. And I am here to say kiwi and raspberries. So a lot of times people do kiwi strawberry, and that's never really been my favorite, but, man, if you can find like some nice ripe raspberries, they pair really well with kiwi. And I recommend eating them at night, you know, when you're watching your show or whatever, like your little snack. Yeah. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Kiwi strawberry is too sweet for me generally. So I feel like that raspberry would bring that needed tartness. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I think it's hard to find as a girl who used to be a farm girl, most strawberries, I'm like, this isn't really a strawberry. Like, once you've grown your own strawberries, nothing else qu. Measures up. I'm a strawberry snob, apparently. [00:03:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:29] Speaker B: I love it. Well, my next question was going to be what's a favorite recipe of yours right now? So maybe it is kiwi and raspberry in a bowl or do you have another one? [00:03:37] Speaker A: Oh, I always have recipes. I. I'll tell you what I just made last night for dinner. My favorite thing is almost always whatever I ate most recently. I take food very seriously and I also take, I take food seriously in a very low brow way. Okay. So, you know, I am, I think we've talked about this. I'm a huge Taco Bell fan. Yes. I am not like bougie about food. I just love food. So last night I made Greek chicken bowls with like homemade tzatziki and hummus. Like, I love a bowl situation where you, you know, you get your, your. I did rice and then the protein and then lots of toppings. Yeah, I love a topping. I love a sauce. I want all of it. I want it to be, you know, you need a bigger bowl. Like, it was delicious. I loved it. [00:04:27] Speaker B: We have like a Greek bowl or Greek pitas has become almost a weekly staple in our house because with a 13 year old and an 11 year old, we're like. Or a 12 and a 10 year old. Wow. I just fast forwarded my kids. That was insane. A 12 year old and a 10 year old trying to find things that everybody likes is a win. So right now we're like, okay, you both like this. This is what we're gonna have. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Well, and I'm in like a little bit of a different phase of life where. And I just thought about this last night when, When Corey and I were eating, because Corey and I were the only ones eating. Yeah, My husband and I, our kids, we've got one away at college. We've got another one getting ready to move way far out of state. And she had other plans last night. And then we have a junior in high school and he was at rehearsal until 10pm last night. So we're not empty nesters, but we almost are. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:17] Speaker A: And so it is that feeling of like, you know, I'm not trying to please everybody anymore. I'm just trying to make the right amount of food for two people. Yeah, it's a different adjustment. [00:05:27] Speaker B: Well, what's a favorite song? You have a whole list of Taylor Swift songs. So it can be a Taylor Swift. It doesn't have to be. But what are you, what are you bopping to right now, Shannon? [00:05:36] Speaker A: I am loving Jensen McCray. I didn't. I did name drop her somewhere in the book. Yes. I, you know, she's. She should be more famous than she is. I mean, she's famous. You know, her music is stellar. She's a singer, songwriter. I subscribe to her substack because she is a writer's writer. She's a thinker. So. Yeah. And I would say my favorite song of hers, I have so many. But the first, the song that made me love her and really discover her, is called My Ego Dies. So it's not on her current album, it's on the previous one and I highly recommend it. Okay. [00:06:13] Speaker B: I'm looking it up immediately after this conversation. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Good. [00:06:17] Speaker B: Shannon, one of my favorite little quirky things about you is that you rotate your coffee mugs through your kitchen and you hang them on a display. [00:06:23] Speaker A: It's very extra, but it's so. [00:06:26] Speaker B: But it's just like that little. It's exactly what this whole entire book is about. It's just a little joy for you. So what's your current. What's your favorite go to coffee mug right now? [00:06:35] Speaker A: Well, okay, we're recording. Am I allowed to say we're recording in February? [00:06:40] Speaker B: Is that top behind the scenes, guys? [00:06:43] Speaker A: And just this morning. So I'll show you. This is my. This is the mug I chose this morning. I. I really am intentional in a weird way with which mug I pull from the rack. Right now. The rack is entirely Valentine's Day. I love it. So there are like 16 Valentine's Day thrift store mugs. This one, I think is my favorite. But I think that a lot of times, and I was like, I have to drink out of my favorite Valentine's Day mug. Because we're in the final days of February. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:10] Speaker A: So once March is here, they're gonna switch out. I only get one month with Valentine's Day. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:15] Speaker A: It's not long enough. [00:07:17] Speaker B: Okay. I do need to know where do you keep. Do you just have a cabinet full of mugs? [00:07:20] Speaker A: Like, where do you keep them for [00:07:22] Speaker B: the other 11 months? [00:07:23] Speaker A: I do. So right over here is my front door. And when you walk in the front door, there's an old, like, antique, vintage, whatever, like, thrift store. Dr. I love it. That serves as, like, our little entryway table. And, man, it's got maybe four drawers and three of them are just mugs. But I also really have to edit because that's. That's the only place I can put mugs. Yeah. So if I see one, you know, that I love and I just can't walk away, then I. I typically have to get rid of one. So they're rotating a little bit, but, yeah, I do. I do. Fall mugs, summer mugs, Christmas mugs, and Valentine's Day mugs. Some of the seasons, like spring, I'm always like, I don't really know. We're just gonna. We're gonna do the best we can. Because, you know, where's the line between spring and summer when it comes to a mug? I don't know. So, yeah, it's. It's. [00:08:13] Speaker B: It's a little vibes. [00:08:14] Speaker A: It's all vibes. You know, I love a vibe. I love. I love a rhythm. And for me, this whole mug thing became. It kind of connects me to the seasons, and the seasons connect me to these rhythms that. That I really choose to lean into to the best of my ability. I mean, we are in the thick of winter in northern Indiana. It has been a brutal January, February, just snow, nonstop. Very, very cold. And winter is not my favorite. Yeah. But these little things, it's like, that's what a counterweight is. Like just something really small but meaningful to me that helps me kind of embrace my reality a little bit more and helps me enjoy my life a little bit more. [00:08:57] Speaker B: I love it. I love it. These little glimmers. I was gonna ask you what's your favorite thing growing in your garden right now? But then I remembered you are in northern Indiana, so maybe nothing. [00:09:06] Speaker A: Well, what I will say is I know that my. And again, I'm gonna keep saying, like, oh, yeah, I wrote about this. I wrote about a lot of things in this book. It's far reaching, but I know that right now My peonies are growing. I can't see them. They have not poked their noses out of the dirt yet. But probably sometime mid to end of March, I'm going to start seeing the little tips come up and I'm on full peony watch at that, at that point. And so at the point in the season where I start thinking about that happening, that is my sign that we are in the home stretch of winter. And so it's kind of cool to me because, you know, I'm. Nothing can really grow outside right now. We have snow, a lot of snow on the ground, but things are happening underground. And I think that is just a metaphor for life. There's a lot that's happening, you know, where we can't necessarily see it and we can't really do anything about it. I'm not doing anything. It's just happening, you know, outside of my control. And pretty soon it's going to be one of the, the happiest days of my year is when the, that first peony blooms. Yay. [00:10:15] Speaker B: It's another rhythm, like you said. It's another thing that just reminds you, like, hey, hold on, something more is coming. [00:10:20] Speaker A: That's right. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Well, last little quick Q A for you. What's something that you've changed your mind about recently that you're happy that you did? [00:10:27] Speaker A: Oh, goodness, what have I changed my mind about? I am a believer in constantly giving ourselves permission to change our mind. I, you know, I grew up thinking that certainty was the goal and that you knew what you believed from the age of four. [00:10:47] Speaker B: Yes, ma'. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Am. Imagine, imagine a four year old just knowing everything about faith in life. And then, you know, if you, if you stray from that, that's probably dangerous and probably a pretty bad idea and very sinful. So I, I'm continuing to work my way out of that. And, and I am here to remind myself and everybody else if we are not changing, we are not growing. And I hope that at the age of 49, I have some different ideas about the world and about God and about politics and about, and neighboring and, you know, all of these things that then I did, you know, when I was in the single digits. I can't think of an answer off the top of my head. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Okay, that's a great answer. And if we think, when we think about it that way, Shannon, because you're so right, like we're just told, hey, believe these things and then believe them for your whole entire life. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:40] Speaker B: But when you frame it up that way of like, wait, do I still Believe the same things I believed when I was nine then it kind of is like, oh, wait, maybe there is an immaturity in that actually of, of not growing a little bit in what we believe. [00:11:53] Speaker A: It's pretty unrealistic. It's. It's asking things of people that we should never ask. Yeah. You know, so I. Yeah, I just. And I'm surprised. I mean, some people listening will be like, why is this woman giving me permission? Like, I don't need Shannon Martin's permission, but I know some people do. Some people, not necessarily my permission, but just the reminder that you already have permission. Right. It's not that I'm giving it to you. I'm just reminding you you already have it. I mean, I. So in, in the little list I wrote that you're kind of referencing in Counterweights, I wrote about some of the things I have changed my mind about. And some of them are pretty big. You know, they're political, they're theological, that type of thing. And some of them are like, I used to think I hated olives, and it turns out I can rock with an olive, you know, like, so. So we're changing in small ways and in big ways. And that's like, isn't that kind of the fun of life to see? Like, I don't know what I'm going to change my mind about next week, next year, 10 years from now? It's pretty cool to think about. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, your book we keep referencing, it's called counterweights, an essential practice for holding hope in a heavy world. And you dedicated this to your parents for always teaching you to look for the light. Because I know that our listeners grew up with, like, different backgrounds. What did that look for you look like for you to have parents that were teaching you to seek the light out? [00:13:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So the whole framework for this counterweights practice gets credited to my dad. My dad was and is a blue collar laborer. I mean, you know, like the, the pickup truck and the tool belt and the callous hands and the whole nine yards. My, my whole childhood, he was building homes and bridges and, you know, a lot of different things. And so I remember as a young child, we lived out in the country. We had barns and sometimes we had random livestock. We weren't farmers, but we were kind of farming adjacent. And I remember him teaching me and my siblings, if you have something heavy to carry, the easiest way to carry it is to put something equally heavy in the other hand. And this sounds very counterintuitive. You know, it sounds like what are you talking about, dad? [00:14:05] Speaker B: Doubling your weight, right? [00:14:07] Speaker A: Yeah, we double up on the weight, and that makes it easier, but in fact, it does, because if you think about carrying something really heavy, every time I tell this story, I picture us walking through the barnyard towards the barn. I remember when he told me this, and it's wild, but if you. If you imagine carrying something really heavy in one hand, it has a tendency to kind of pull us over, Right. And so then we're kind of lurched to the side. We're trying to move forward, and that's hard. The second you put something equally heavy in the other hand, it pulls us back to center so that we can move forward. We might not move forward quickly, but we will keep that momentum. It'll keep us upright and at center so that we can move forward. And my dad, Dwight, meant this in the absolutely most practical way possible. But I am a writer with kind of the heart of a poet. And so it became a metaphor for me in life. I mean, 10 years or more ago, that I started to think about, we have a lot of heavy things that we are carrying in our lives. They are not things that we have the option to put them down. We did not ask for them. We might not want them. We don't have control over them, but here they are. We have this other bucket where we can choose to fill it with heavy goodness so that we've got this heavy difficulty, this heavy challenge. But we also have this other arm of the scale that we can fill up with heavy goodness to keep us pulled to center and upright so that we can move forward. And that is, in a nutshell, that is counterweights. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you see? That's a very practical visual, and I love that. The idea of, like, buckets. And the listener. I've told you this. The listeners have no idea. My grandparents lived on a horse farm in northern Indiana. So I can literally picture the exact, like, terrain that you were walking on. But for most people listening, like, what does a counterweight look like? Right. Like, practically right now? [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah. A counterweight looks like whatever you find within your reach that helps to remind you of. Of why we love this life. You know, we. We can get caught up. I know my friends, my circles. When we're even, you and I, at the start of this call, we're like, how are you? I mean, I don't know. We're doing the best we can. It's harder and harder to be like, I'm great. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker A: I mean, that's the reality. And for people who are paying attention and willing to tell the truth. That is the difficult, challenging reality. Yeah. Our counterweights are any little thing. They are personal, they are quirky, they are weird, often in their particularity. And I wanted that to come through in the book. And so some of the counterweights that I wrote about are more broad, like friendship with. With trusted people who are going to walk through the highs and lows of life with us. That's something most of us share. You know, we can think of a friend that helps keep us going. That friend is a counterweight. Some of them are just extremely particular and personal. And other people might be thinking, like, why is Shannon having all of her thrift store mugs? Like, I don't relate to that. [00:17:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:20] Speaker A: But it's whatever. It's personal. Right. It's communal in so many ways, but it's personal. And so I really believe that our counterweights are always happening around us. I think most of us are in the rhythm that we might not quite recognize it of, like, we're looking for ways to survive. We are looking for something to. Something to look forward to, something that's going to help us to rest, something that is going to bring us some joy or delight. We are doing that to a certain extent. Yeah. With counterweights, we have a name for it. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:54] Speaker A: And once we are able to name something, it becomes more accessible. It requires us to just. I mean, even by naming it, we're giving it a little more intentionality so that at any point through the day, I'm literally looking around my house, looking outside at creation, and just taking something small that is available to me in that moment and using it to help me keep going. Yeah. Is that too broad an answer? No. So it's basically like a counterweight is really whatever you need it to be. [00:18:25] Speaker B: No, it's great. It makes it easy. It makes it challenging for some people, but it does make it easy. I was thinking, as you were talking about, you know, there are people who, for whatever reason, maybe they don't understand it, you know, I don't know. But tend to minimize, like, silliness and frivolity and, like, these little tiny details. And so I think that can be why some people have a hard time. You have really, like, cultivated this practice. Right. So you could probably look around right now and name, like, 13 things because you're used to looking for them. But what would you say to people who either are having a hard time seeing it, or, like Aaron Moon always says, don't romp on other people's Ding Dongs. Like, that's what I think. But that's what happens, right? Like. Like don't romp on someone's Ding Dong because they like pumpkin spice lattes or they like to use their, like, theme mug. Like, speak to that a little bit. Yeah. [00:19:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, one of the. One of the things that really inspired me to write this book was I was at times finding myself feeling almost guilty for loving my life. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:33] Speaker A: For feeling joy, for having fun, for celebrating. A friend of mine posted something recently about. I don't remember specifically, but like, a book she loved or something like that, and she got a comment. I mean, I've gotten these comments too. You have as well, Kristen, I'm sure. But somebody commented back and was like, okay, cool. You liked that book. Did you know the world was on fire? Yes. And it's like, yeah, we're pretty aware. We are pretty aware that the world is on fire. And that is why it matters to read a novel that you enjoy. Yeah. This idea that we have to be one or the other. And I know, I mean, it's just, it's. It's unfair to the. The kingdom of God, you know, to. To be really dramatic. Like, it is unfair to Jesus who came and lived in a body to be among us and to show us how to do this. Like, life is just more complicated and nuanced than that. Yes. Things are not all bad. And things are also, like, I have friends on the other side who are like, I'm just focusing on joy. I'm choosing Joy. I'm not following the news. I have a lot of people like that in my life, and that makes me want to lose my actual mind. So. So what? [00:20:46] Speaker B: That's not what you're talking about either. [00:20:48] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Right? No. Like, what. What counterweights is not. Is that what counterweights is not, is making a gratitude list. I mean, knock yourself out. Make a gratitude list. It's. I've done it before. It's. There's nothing wrong with it. Counterweights is our reminder that we have to carry both. We have to give both our sacred and honest attention. We have a duty to each other. We have a duty to follow to a certain extent. And that's going to change for different people in different situations if we have a duty to stay aware. A lot of the things that are weighing me down right now are not, you know, weighing me down personally. They are weighing me down on behalf of. Of my kids, my neighbors, you know, our friends who are coming out of incarceration I mean, we don't have to personally be affected by something to pay attention to it, to care about it, and to let us. Or to let it sort of weigh us down a little bit. Like, we get to carry each other's burdens with each other. We just have to be filling that other bucket full of good things so that we don't just go completely underwater. We don't just fall into our bed and not get out. I mean, there's a real. There's a real danger in that. And so it's not about trying to achieve some perfect kind of balance. There's no part of me that believes drinking out of this Valentine's Day mug is going to offset the state of our national politics right now. Right. Like, obviously, it's not about one cancels out the other, but it is like, if. If choosing this mug in the morning lifts me just a little bit further up off the ground, that is a win. Yeah. And so if we can. If we can set the rhythm that we're moving through our day, understanding that it's going to be challenging and hard and we're going to cuss sometimes, we're going to cry sometimes, we're going to stay in bed sometimes, like, this is what it means to be human. Yes. But if we can be in the habit and in the rhythm of looking for those little things to just keep lifting ourselves back up again, that's what allows us to keep moving forward in hope so that we can do the work of justice. Yeah. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Well, I'm really glad that you said it's not like a one for one. We're not talking about, like, that middle school science scale, you know, where, like. [00:23:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:09] Speaker B: You have something heavy and then something light, and they immediately equal out. But it's just we keep adding in the good bucket because this other one is quite heavy. [00:23:18] Speaker A: That's right. Right. And to me, the scale, the image of a scale is really. It's. It's something visual that I can grab onto. But you're right. Like it. I. I think of our lives as kind of like we're on this. We. We are the scale. Right. And we have these two arms. It is never going to be perfectly balanced. [00:23:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:39] Speaker A: But with every little. With. With every little way that we care for ourselves by filling that. That bucket full of heavy goodness, it lifts us a little bit further up off the ground. And so it's constantly shifting and changing. And, you know, we're redistributing that weight all the time. I just believe that for people of faith, which you and I both are. Yes. We have been promised the abundant life for a very long time. I thought of that as just like, I get all the goodies. Yay, God. Thank you. It turns out we get it all. We get the, the stuff that we love and the stuff that we wish we could get rid of. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:19] Speaker A: And our job is to learn how to carry it all. And, and in the best case scenario, we're doing that together. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and this is not just like a woo woo feel. Good idea. Shannon, where in scripture do you see this practice of counterweights? Like, is this something that Jesus modeled? [00:24:35] Speaker A: I think so. I mean, I, I, I think the, the Beauty of John 3:16 is not exclusively, you know, this idea that, that I was raised in God so loved the world that he came to die. Like, that's kind of what, the way I was taught that verse and saw that verse for a very long time. It has become so much more rich and true and meaningful to me when I've reframed it as God loved us so much that God sent his son to a body to live in, a body in this imperfect and ailing world. So I think just, just that incarnation is a picture of counterweights where, where God is choosing to receive the challenges of life. And we see a lot of images of Jesus, you know, dining with his friends and with scandalous people and resting and having a good time, joking around. I think being a little clever and cheeky at times. I mean, we don't see a very stoic Jesus. We see a Jesus who was very, very honest about the state of his world, the state of the people around him and the duty to care for each other and to still, to still experience beauty and delight and joy. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if you, have you watched the Chosen? Have you seen that show? [00:26:11] Speaker A: I've seen a lot of it. Not all of it. [00:26:13] Speaker B: Okay. So one of the reasons I, I'm obsessed. I love it. And that's part of the reason that I love it is because exactly how you just described Jesus. I always grew up reading the scripture or seeing depictions of him that were, well, one white. [00:26:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Also just like very serious and very holy and very reserved. And yes, there's an element of that. But that's why I love this show so much, is because they do portray Jesus where he's laughing and he's. [00:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Making like, not sarcastic comments to the disciples, but like, we actually, I mean, maybe like. [00:26:48] Speaker A: Yeah, right. We see his human. Right, right. He's very human. One of the. One of the things that first kind of caught my attention later in life was when I started going through the Gospels and noticing, I started highlighting them. And I recommend this practice to anybody every time when it shows, you know, in the Gospels, it's, it's showing us, giving us a glimpse. I wish there was so much more. But we see these glimpses of Jesus in his body, in his life, and it will, it will. Like Jesus is on his way to this place. And then Jesus heard and he changes course. Then Jesus saw and he changes course. So Jesus is engaging with the world through his five senses, through his body, and that is often changing his course, changing his plans. I think that's really meaningful to us. And so much of counterweights is the reminder that we have to, we have to do the work of knowing ourselves. A lot of us, especially women, are like, I don't know, I don't know what I like, I don't know what I want. Am I allowed to want, you know, all these, these questions? And so I'm encouraging us to do that work. But it's also about like being in our bodies and listening to our bodies, which also would have been like a big red flag to me for, for a lot of my younger years. Like, oh no, our bodies are evil. You know, do not listen to our bodies. I think that's really, that's, that's sort of a warping. It's not sort of a warping. It's. It is a warping of, of even the, the, the picture Jesus gives us. Jesus was listening to his body. And of course, you know, it's more complicated. [00:28:31] Speaker B: Jesus sure was. [00:28:33] Speaker A: God is God. But I think, I think we, we have to pay attention to those little things. And so if we can go through life letting our bodies kind of give us cues about what's happening around us or in us or you know, just what do we hear, what do we smell, what do we taste like? All of those are clues for what our counterweights might be, for what we might need in that moment. Yeah, and I think it's just a really, it's a really rooted and embodied way to continue this important work of, of playing our part in God's kingdom on earth. Right now. [00:29:19] Speaker B: If this work of coming back to your body is something that sounds either a little too woo woo or it's something that you're interested in learning more about, I have a few resources for you. I literally just grabbed these off of the shelf behind me. I've got Take what yout need by Andie Colber, as well as Nervous Systems by Sarah Billups. Another one that you could check out is why Am I Like this? By Kobe Campbell. You can always find these books on the Becoming Church list in the show notes as well. I think, Shannon, so many people, maybe women specifically, like you said, struggle to know. I get this question all the time. How do I know if it's God talking to me or if it's just, like, my own thoughts? How do I know if it's Holy Spirit or if it's just my own emotions? Because we were taught not to trust not only our bodies, but not to trust our thoughts or our hearts either. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Because that they were all sinful and leading us to deception. And also I think that is a key part to being able to not only hear from God, but then also, like, be able to embody Holy Spirit, to love our neighbor as well. For people that have not done that work yet, and they're like, I don't know what you're saying. Five senses, like, what do I do? How would you encourage them to even begin that practice? [00:30:39] Speaker A: To begin. Let me ask you to clarify, like, to begin the practice. Say it again. Of. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Of saying, like, here's my five senses. You know, you talk about Jesus, like, saw things and he heard things and. [00:30:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:52] Speaker B: Listened to his body. For people that have never done that, how do they begin going, like, I don't even know how to tune into my body because I don't know. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Right. You know, okay, right. I. I can speak to that because that was very much me. And so I'm still. I'm still a work in. In process. I. A couple years ago, I was seeing a therapist, and I think therapists are kind of known for being like, where do you feel it in your body? At least I hear from a lot of folks who. That is their experience. And I. I was always like, what are you talking about? Like, I mean, it was like. It was like a riddle that could not be solved. It was like hearing a foreign language. I mean, I could not grasp what it meant. And so it was important work for me to kind of return to my body when I didn't ever even really know. I was pretty disconnected from my body. So here is one little exercise. These are so simple, but they're really helpful. I would. And I do this from time to time. Set a timer for five minutes and make a list of everything you hear. I've done this on my back patio. I've done this on my couch. When it seems like I'm Home alone. Like there's nothing happening, but there is. And so if we like, like make the habit or even if you're just like on the fly, take 10 seconds and just ask yourself, like, get quiet enough and still enough to think about, what do I hear right now? Those little habits of just like intentionally hearing. Intentionally, like, what do you, what do you notice? What does the air you're in smell like right now? I mean, just returning ourselves to our bodies is really profoundly helpful in small but meaningful ways to help us to understand. I mean, I, I think we, we do a disservice to ourselves when we believe that we can't experience God, hear from God through anything other than reading the Bible or praying. I mean, praying is hard for me. Yes, praying is. I, I wrote about prayer being challenging for me and, and feeling like I've never been good about, good at it and the way some people are and, you know, just wrestling through that. I experience and have learned so much about the goodness of God and who God is and how God loves me through things that are not reading my Bible or, you know, what we think of as praying, being with other people, listening, you know, listening to, to what my senses are telling me. I, it. When we try to subtract our bodies out of this equation, I just think we miss the point. Yeah. God sent Jesus to be in a body that, that means something for us. So, so doing that, those little steps to kind of return ourselves to our bodies, I think it's really important work and it's work we can all do. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for that example. I also think it doing that because we do, we rush through life. So we miss so much of the things where I really believe that God is like in, not to over spiritualize, you know, but God is in everything. And we, he can speak to us through anything. Like, yes, movies, something happening, like anything, literally anything. And we, we do, we miss it when we rush through. And for me, in my own therapy work, what I also realized was I did not value myself enough to let those things matter. Does that make sense? [00:34:31] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. [00:34:33] Speaker B: So I would see a little thing and then brush it off because I'm like, well, God's not going to do that for me. God's not going to speak to me through. And it was so I just kind of like minimized or brushed things off. And it started with having to see myself, how God sees me. And then I was able to see him then kind of like hiding in plain sight, you know, in all these unexpected places. [00:34:55] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I mean, because I'm a person of faith, for me, there is a spiritual connection to this idea of counterweights. You know, we, Sarah Miles, one of my favorite authors, said God is wrote, God is always happening. I think counterweights are always happening. Yeah. And you know, I, I think of that, you know, when we think of every good and perfect thing comes from God. I, I just think there's a, there's a spiritual connection there for me. And I also think for people who are not people of faith or for people who are of a different faith than I am, I think the, the metaphor still holds and the practice is still just as meaningful. It might just connect for them in a bit of a different way. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Sure. [00:35:41] Speaker A: So, yeah, I, I definitely see these counterweights that I pick up throughout the day and, and gather up as, as connections with God. I really do see it that way. And it's okay if other people don't. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. The practice still stays. It still holds the same impact. [00:36:01] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:36:03] Speaker B: Well, Shannon, one of the things that you touched on in the book and it's kind of repeatedly popped up for me over the last number of years, is this tension where we have to hold the complexity of like two things. Right. Maybe things that shouldn't even be like that life is more both and than we actually want it to be. And so I was going to ask you generally, but I also wonder for Christians specifically, you know, you mentioned counterweights are not just like a naivete of we're going to look away and pretend that everything's fine. Why do you think maybe especially for Jesus followers, that it's hard for people to lean into the honesty of holding both. [00:36:45] Speaker A: I just think we have built, in so many ways, we've built Christian, white Christian culture around this sort of toxic positivity. Yeah. Of, you know, I remember being taught by well meaning people. You know, we're supposed to be set apart and different and holy. That means that we should always be joyful. Well, okay, that doesn't, you know, that, that might work for a certain amount of time, but then something devastating happens. [00:37:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:17] Speaker A: You know, I mean, this is, this is like a little bit of a, of a personal beef for me. This might be controversial, but I think even this, this urge to reframe death as celebrations of life, I mean, again, even within my closest friend group, they're like, shannon, shut up. You're nuts. But for me, it's not that we shouldn't celebrate a life, but it's missing that element of like grief of just the Real world. Like, I don't want to celebrate right now that this person died. I mean, we can. We can be grateful. We can. Might just be semantics, I don't know. But I think we. We struggle with the ability to be very honest about our feelings. We struggle with the urge and to turn everything in a more optimistic, palatable way. And again, I think when we give in to that urge over and over again, when we make a lifetime out of what I would see as toxic positivity, in whatever situation we might be talking about, we miss out on the gritty God who sits with us in all of the crap that life just throws at us if we can't be on. And. And I also think there's a layer where a lot of us do get that. A lot of us, when we go through our hardest times, we do feel that and experience that, but we might not. We might not. We might still be conditioned to say out loud, you know, everything happens for a reason, when inside, you know, there becomes this sort of disconnect with how we even experience things and what we're willing to say out loud because it's become such a prevalent narrative. So, I don't know. I mean, I'm just. I think honesty looks different for different people. I am just begging us to become more honest about the things that are hard, about the things that we want and long for, about our own. Our own wirings, our own faults, injustice. Like, please, let's get more honest about. About the ways this world is really bruising the people around us. I just. I think honesty and. And having that alignment between, like, what we are experiencing and what we are kind of projecting into the world, I think it's really important. Yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I do, too. When we rush to the good part, we miss, like you said, where God is trying to meet us in the hard and the heavy. And it's not that he's not with us in the joy, but my guess is that God has something for us when things are easy and comfortable and happy and something else for us when things are heavy and hard and crappy, like you said, and we miss out on these parts of God when we acknowledge it really quick and then just, like, try to rush through. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah, the happy parts, I. I think I've. I learned this lesson that I'm still constantly learning. I learned it largely from our friends who are incarcerated. And so my husband, Corey, is a chaplain of the second largest county jail in Indiana. That is an accolade we don't want. Right. We have this massive county jail And Corey is the chaplain there. So. So our many of our close connections in our everyday life are people who are currently incarcerated at the work release center just a couple blocks from where I'm sitting, or they're coming out of incarceration. It. My life has become immersed with people who have struggled forever in ways that I have not struggled. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:17] Speaker A: And the level of honesty, the level of, like, not putting up pretenses, the level of, like, here I am, you know, take me or leave me. This is who I am. It has changed. It has changed the way I see myself, my home, my belongings, my money. It has changed the way I have, you know, stopped, in many cases, becoming a people pleaser. It has changed so much about me because it is brutally honest. So, you know, I write about our Sunday morning gathering with our friends in work release. The Holy alliance is our name. Some of the prayers that come out of that time. I mean, it. I was decades. I was, you know, in my 40s before I was hearing people, like, openly swear and say f bombs, even in their prayer. Yeah. And there's just a level of. Of just pure honesty. And folks who were not raised with the rule book that I was raised. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Formality. Yeah, yeah. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Like. Or just, you know, saying the same words, because that's what my mom said, and she says them because that's what, you know, like. And I think there can be some beauty and some meaning in some of those, you know, legacies that we carry down. But I also think there's something so beautiful about believing that God just receives us in our. In our honesty, in our brokenness, in our grief, in our struggle. It's. It's just the. One of the most beautiful things I've experienced. [00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I love that. And I love the work that you do, not only with the incarcerated, but you also work at a. Oh, I'm going to a food pantry. [00:43:12] Speaker A: We do have a food pantry. I work in the community kitchen. The community? Yes. I'm the cook. I'm one of the cooks. Yeah. I love it. [00:43:20] Speaker B: Well, and just so people know that you actually are, like, living out all of the things that you're saying, and you're having these real honest conversations with people in your everyday life. So thank you for doing that. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's meaningful. I've been on staff there for about seven years now, and as we said at the beginning, you know, I love food. I love to cook. And so being able to. To spend time with my neighbors every week in that way and. And make lunch for them is. [00:43:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:50] Speaker A: It's like a dream come true. [00:43:52] Speaker B: And you can tell that you have so much joy and so much fun doing it. When I watch your stories, I'm like, oh, there's Shannon's tomato or here's the, like cafeteria. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Here I am chopping like five gallons of carrots. For me, it's, it's also, it's, it's meaningful at like the heart and soul level, but it also puts me in my body. Yeah. Like where as an author working at home, as an introvert, you know, I'm in a quiet house. I can do that for a really long time. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:18] Speaker A: This forces me out. It forces me to use my body more than just like ruminating on ideas in my brain and just, you know, it's fast paced and it's physical and it's a really, it's, it's created a really nice rhythm for me. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Well, Shannon, you mentioned, as we're quickly coming to out of time here, you mentioned that, you know, counterweights and paying attention, all these things have, has changed you. [00:44:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:44] Speaker B: And I think right now one of the things that we're seeing is we're in a very heavy, divisive world. And my guess is because I know my listeners, there are people who are listening who maybe have not quite been able to learn how to hold both. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Like the hard and the good. And it's probably likely because of the people that are around them. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:11] Speaker B: How would you encourage someone who's listening who maybe wants to start changing their mind on things, but doesn't really necessarily feel supported, maybe in their family or their church? What encouragement do you have for them, especially right now? [00:45:28] Speaker A: I would say to them, I am you. I have been you. I am you. And there are more of us than, than we could imagine. Yeah. I, I, There is such rigidity around straying from the playbook within a lot of Christian circles. And on my best days, that gives me grace for people who I'm like, why, like, why can we not agree on X, Y or Z? It seems very, very obvious and clear. Yeah. That one path is echoing in the way of Jesus and one is running in the opposite direction. Like, how, how is this a struggle? In my best moments, I can honestly say sometimes when we change our minds, it costs us belonging, like at, at the core level. And that is, I've been there. It is brutal, it is painful. It is, I, I say often it's the heartbreak of my lifetime. I don't know if I'll ever get over it. And it's real. But I do also know there's real liberation in, in walking in our integrity and saying, you know, like, for me, I'm like, y' all taught me to, to follow in the way of Jesus, and I'm, I'm still doing that. I'm not doing it perfectly, and I won't pretend that I am. But, you know, I used to work in very conservative politics. My husband did as well. Like, we have really changed our minds on some really fundamental things, and the fallout has been immense at times. And so is there, is there loss? Yes. What is the counterweight to loss? Grief. So walk and walk in your integrity. Walk in the way of Jesus, if that's your thing, you know, and let yourself grieve that loss. Over time, we, we rebuild belonging in different places with different people in different ways. And, and so when we, when we have that rupture and we have that loss, it is not the end. Yeah. [00:47:56] Speaker B: I mean, I would have never called grief a counterweight, but it really is. [00:48:01] Speaker A: It is. [00:48:02] Speaker B: It really is. [00:48:03] Speaker A: That's so cool. It's the only thing I know that, that can help us move through our losses. And our losses, some of them are big and some of them are small, but they're all personal and they all hurt. And so, again, it goes back to that, my rant earlier about being able to grieve a little more. Honestly, we do that with people, but we also do that with just these, these ordinary, everyday losses that accumulate. We have to grieve them in order to move through them. [00:48:34] Speaker B: When I feel like I'm constantly telling people to. Just because a voice that you hear is the loudest doesn't actually make it the majority. [00:48:42] Speaker A: So, yeah, right. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Like, hey, maybe you're alone, or maybe you're, you're crazy for what you believe because what you hear is just this cacophony of something else. It doesn't mean that it's the majority. It doesn't actually mean that you're alone. [00:48:57] Speaker A: That's right. [00:48:58] Speaker B: Last question for you, Shannon, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:49:07] Speaker A: By paying attention. I mean, I, I, I don't know what else to say. That's, you know, again, we see Jesus paying attention to the world around him and his neighbors, and we are being called to do the same. So that, that does mean, you know, getting, getting out for all of us introverts. It does require a little more of us, I think when we really tune in and pay attention to each other, to the state of our world, the things that are ours to do become obvious to us. I really, really believe that. I don't think we have to overthink it. I don't think we have to pray about it. I mean, come on. Like, there are so many things in our lives that we can just look out and know. With God in us, we already know what it is that we need to do. We do not have to overthink it. We just need to get more serious and more urgent about caring for each other. [00:50:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And more honest. Back to what you were saying about what God is actually calling us to do. [00:50:13] Speaker A: That's right. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Actually. Before us. So, yes, thank you so much. We'll link up the book which comes out this week. You guys make sure you grab a copy. This is the. The hope reminder of hope and light and life that you need. So grab it. Grab two. Give one to a friend. [00:50:30] Speaker A: Can I add one thing to that? If. If you grab it, this is. This is going to be out just a couple days before the official release. If you grab it before launch day, you get the audiobook for free. [00:50:40] Speaker B: I love that. [00:50:41] Speaker A: So it's another little bonus. But, yes, find counterweights wherever you find your books. [00:50:45] Speaker B: Perfect. I love it. Thank you, Shannon. [00:50:48] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:50:54] Speaker B: Okay, your homework today is to find one counterweight, then tomorrow find two, and the next day find three. God really is always happening. And you don't have to wonder, is this just a coincidence? Or is God really orchestrating something to happen just for you? Knowing for certain, which is the case, kind of misses the point. If it makes a deposit in your hope bucket, it counts. Also, as we get closer to Easter, I to want to invite you to join us at Mosaic. I know it's not a possibility for all of you listening, but if you're in driving distance to Charlotte, we would love to have you for our special outdoor celebration with worship baptisms and free snow cones. Until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.