Cheryl Nembhard: Power in The Church

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus isn't just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and my guest today is Cheryl Nemhard. She is a speaker, teacher, a TV and podcast host. She's also a social justice advocate or sex trafficking at risk youth, kids in gangs, addicts, marginalized women. So many people. You are going to hear her passion and her heart for all of them in our conversation today. This episode is a little bit longer than most of them, but don't let the runtime deter you. You have my permission to save this for a commute to and from work when you're going on a long walk, if that hypes you up. Or you can also pause and listen to it in segments. There are no rules for podcast listening here at Becoming Church, regardless of when or how you listen. We'd love to know how these episodes help empower you, make you think, or grow your faith. And you can actually let us know by leaving a review on your favorite podcast platform. It really does help other people find the show so they can join us in Becoming Church. And isn't that really the goal of all of this? All right, here's my conversation with Cheryl Memhard. All right, Cheryl, welcome to Becoming Church. Welcome to the show. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited. Like, literally excited. We've been talking about this for so long, and I'm so happy to be here. [00:01:41] Speaker A: We have. You know what's funny is I had a birthday recently, and I had this Marco Polo notification that I kept never checking because I was all about it during, like, the pandemic. And then it kind of fell off. And it was just this morning I was like, I have to go in and watch that. And it was the perfect time because I'm literally like, I Marco Polo due back, and I had eye patches on and they were falling off because you're making me cry. If we're going to Marco Polo, this is the version of me you're going to get. But you are such an encourager of people, and I think that's one of the reasons I was just so drawn to you when we met at Azer, you know, however many years ago. And I just need to know, how did that happen? Like, did someone imprint on your life? Like, how did you become such an encourager of championing. Championing people? [00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's so funny because a lot of who I am is it derives from this space of, like, lack and deficiency. I did not have that in my life. I was not encouraged. I, for many years I felt very much on my own trying to figure things out, had lived a very hard life, was literally witness to on the streets and so had a lot of like adjusting to do coming into the church and sure could have used some encouraging voices and then also found myself in these toxic spaces in the early days of like, who do I trust and do I can't trust anyone? And struggling with that. And I just decided, I made a decision internally that I will be for others what I haven't readily seen or received for myself. And I decided that I was going to cheer the loudest in the room, pray for people, lift them up, because it is so desperately needed. And it turned out that it became such a blessing for me that I was like, oh, this is like the gift you've given me. You know, words of affirmation, being able to speak into people's lives. You know, I have that. I lean in that prophetic gifting of being able to speak an on time word for people when they need it. And so I just, I leaned into that and man, it has just blessed the socks off of my own life. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Encouraging people, look at God. I love when that happens, right? When we're like, all right, Lord, I'm going to do this for you and for other people and it comes back to be for us too. [00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And what a beautiful choice just for someone that's listening, that we could be wounded in a space and we could choose to like, I, you know, like to come out with some sort of like chip on our shoulder or whatever. But to actually lean in and be like, you know what? I'm going to be that I'm not going to hold this against me. I'm not going to wear this like no one was there for me like forever. I'm going to let that go and I'm just going to be that support and that pillar for other people. [00:04:43] Speaker A: But that is the hardest thing, right? And you've been able to do this so well. But I think that is not our natural. Like when we're wounded, we either want to curl up into safety or we want to fight. Right. We want to like lash out at other people or the people that did hurt us or the people that were afraid are going to hurt us. How did you make this decision to go? I want to lean into my wounded. [00:05:06] Speaker B: Spaces because that's where I found most of my healing took place. Okay. I think, I think so many times we want to not Feel pain, we want to not feel discomfort. We want to remember what has not been done well in our lives. But there is a freedom that God's calling us to when we let it go and embrace it. And not only embrace it, but like God, now that you've healed me in this space, teach me to do this for someone else who's wounded in that area, who's feeling discarded and let go or all alone or has had their back stabbed. And I just encourage people. You could be broken down, or you could be broken up in pieces, or you could be broken open. And that's a different posture. That's where we allow the woundedness and the pain points of our life to be used for God's glory. Like, God, break me open. Let me pour out of those places and spaces to help others so that their journey is easier. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so good. I think, too. I grew up, you know, we were just even chatting, like, pre recording about, you know, how we grew up and different ideas and whatever. But one of the things, when it came to pain specifically, I grew up with the idea that, like, God is doing this so that I can help someone else in the future. Right. And I think there is an underlying truth to that, but I think a lot of people misunderstand exactly what that is. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker A: I don't think God does things to us or puts us through pain just so that someone else in the future, like, he can reach them just the same as he can reach us, you know? [00:06:45] Speaker B: But it's that. [00:06:46] Speaker A: It's that idea of, okay, now that I have lived through this because I love other people and because I want to be Jesus to other people in their lives. How can I use my vulnerable past or present to then love someone else? [00:07:03] Speaker B: Listen, I call that changing the W in your life. Okay, so I live trapped in a prison like we all have of the. Why? Why, God? Why would you allow this to happen? Why would you do this to me? Why would you not answer this prayer? Why? Why? Why? And when you live in a prison of why, it will literally cause you to cocoon in hardness, woundedness, unforgiveness, like just so many horrible things. Because the truth is, those answers will never come. Because they may come, but not in the way you want them to. I always say you won't recognize them. Yeah. I always say it's extremely hard to hear from God when you already know what you want him to say. Hello, somebody. Right. Like, so either we don't love the answer or it doesn't come. But when I Changed my why to your point? To what, sis? Like, it was like, what. What would you have me learn from this? In what way? In what ways can I grow from this moment? And what lessons can I take with me to share with others on the way? And so that's this wonderful way of understanding the truth that God wastes nothing. He wastes nothing. No, he doesn't. Like I'm going to do this and causes pain and. Ha ha ha. But. But in that process, when we say that God uses all of it for his glory, if we can surrender and say, God in this moment, I don't understand. But whatever those lessons are that I can learn, whatever it is that you're showing me about me. Sometimes. Sometimes pain is a. Is a painful mirror for ourselves. [00:08:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:47] Speaker B: We learn so much in our down moments about, oh, man, my heart's not good there, or, geez, I'm struggling with unforgiveness from age 17 or whatever it is. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:59] Speaker B: And so sometimes pain has a way. It's a magnifying glass. It kind of causes us to look in. In a way that we don't usually. Well, the old folks would say that sometimes God knocks you down on your back, so the only way you can look is up. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [00:09:19] Speaker B: And so sometimes there's just this way of, like, the down seasons cause us to lean into God in a way that we wouldn't during the wonderful warm and fuzzies. [00:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And listen, I know myself and I know God knows me. And sometimes the only way he can get my attention is to either, like, grab me by the face or literally be like, I need you to listen right now. You are not getting it. So let me be very clear. [00:09:47] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:48] Speaker A: And that's okay. [00:09:49] Speaker B: And that's okay. And so. Yeah. And so we, you know, when you take the lessons, when you ask, when you sit in the moment and allow yourself to sit in the discomfort of that and say, what are you. What am I learning? What is it that I can take with me from this that I can share as part of my ministry platform, as part of just life as, you know, lessons on the way, in what ways can I lean in closer to God? What am I learning about him, us, our relationship, the church people? Like, there is just so much if we shift it, it is just shifting our mind on disappointment and hard times. [00:10:31] Speaker A: And I want to encourage people listening to, like, it is a process. I think you said there is a process. There is some healing and some personal processing and going to God that has to take place before you can try to speak it into somebody else or help somebody else, because otherwise you're just bleeding all over them. And you're not actually, like, we have to find our own healing first. And I really do think that the Holy Spirit kind of guides us to. Okay, now you're at a healthy place where you've forgiven, you've moved, Moved on enough, you haven't forgotten. Maybe the grief still comes up from time to time, but now we're actually in a place of being able to process, and we've learned the what even if we didn't learn the why. And then we can take it to other people. [00:11:14] Speaker B: So good. So good. Come on, you're preaching already. [00:11:20] Speaker A: Listen, let's go. So you are an encourager, which I love about you, but the other thing that I really love about you is that you are a disruptor. You live your life as a disruptor. And that is a word that I have grown to love. But I think a lot of times it can have a negative connotation for a lot of people. Right? Don't you think? [00:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, yes. [00:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah. They're like, disrupt. [00:11:41] Speaker B: No, no, Right. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Leave everything as is. So what is it? What does that mean for you? What does it look like in your life? [00:11:48] Speaker B: You know, I. You know, there was a time I used to hold on to this phrase, gospel gangster, as a gospel gangster. But now I understand, as I've come into more of my learning years and growing, that it is really being a holy disruptor. And then in so many ways, all of us are called to lead holy disruptions where we are. And if we understand disruption as something that upsets a system, something that upsets a mindset or a thinking or a way of being for the better, that's the key part there. I'm not coming in to blow stuff up and leave it in chaos and walk away laughing. There's a righteous indignation. There's this feeling of, God, this is not your plan for us. What's happening here. This is. Your heart is not pleased with this or whatever that is that troubling feeling. We've all had it where it just doesn't sit well. And leaning into like, okay, God, what is it that is so opposite to your heart, to what you've taught us, how you've modeled. And so I just believe a holy disruptor is someone who is shaking things up and trying to allow that dust to settle in a way that looks more like Jesus. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Now, what would you say to the person that. And again, I would have been this person in the past, what do you say to the person that's like, no, no, no, we're not supposed to disrupt anything. We don't need to change anything. You know, God said it. It's in the Bible. Everything is good. The church is fine. Everything is fine. We don't need disruptors. We don't need things to change. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah, well, from the beginning of time, I mean, when we look at Jesus and how he lived his life, he was the biggest disruptor of them all, number one. He lived to disrupt all the religious structures of the day. He went against empire and world systems. He did not conform to any of those existing power systems. And there's, you know, there's seven. We can get into that of power systems that we are called to not be a part of their sort of empirical way of living. We're called to live in that other way that some people. Some people call it the third way, the way of Jesus. And so there's a constant flipping of the tables. I mean, Jesus physically flipped a table. We know this big, huge moment in time. We've learned so much from it in the temple, but in so many ways, through his words, through his actions, who he sat with, who he lived with, what he spoke against, who he advocated for, he was flipping tables left, right and center. And so, you know, there's a. There's an advocate. I wrote his name down, an activist. His name is John Lewis. He's passed. He's a great civil rights activist. But he said, never be afraid to make some noise and to get into good trouble, necessary trouble. And so I just feel like. I feel like the way of Jesus comes with sometimes rubbing, sometimes it's not comfortable. It calls us to take a stand at times. It calls us to not conform. It even calls us to sometimes speak up for or against something. And so if we understand what this third way of living for Jesus is, it will cause disruptions along the way. And the truth is, as much as we. I am passionately in love as you are with the church, there is that constant tension of, like, trying to make sure that we are not looking like anything that is empire. And so there's always this, like, pulling away from and. And leaning towards the ways of Jesus. So, yeah, all of that is disruption. [00:15:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it is because we love the church so much that we have to look at all of the places that it's broken or should be better or different, you know? [00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:01] Speaker A: I think, you know, people take the idea of Jesus flipping a table and so then they can go, okay, so I'm going to flip tables. But honestly, Cheryl, they just are jerks. Like, they're not disruptors. They just become jerks. They're just mean people. So how do we know the difference? Like, how can we be Jesus disruptors? Right? And not just people who are coming in, like you said, to blow it up and then walk away laughing. [00:16:31] Speaker B: It's intention. It is literally acknowledging that what drives us is completely not of this world. It is we are fueled and people of love and compassion and justice. And so that is the driving force. It is not about confrontation, combativeness, it's not about division. Those are things of the enemy. You know, he comes to steal, kill, destroy. He comes to separate the brethren. He's an accuser of the brethren. We just know all of that. And so if the goal is to bring unity, if the goal is to draw us closer to Jesus, if the goal is to make us look more like Jesus, or to lean, recalibrate back into the way of Jesus, like, guys, we've lost our way here. If it's to call out injustice, if it's to, you know, even something simple like this, this is believe this or believe it or not, this is also disruptive to say, like, you know what? I choose Sabbath. I'm just going left, I'm going left field here for someone. And I don't know, I feel like someone needs to hear this, but I choose Sabbath. I will not. I disrupt the system of hustle and busyness and commerce and drive to the point of burnout, to the point of not spending time with family and friends, like of bleeding out, as you said so perfectly, Kristen. So I will disrupt that way of thinking and disrupt that ideology. And I will choose the holy path of Sabbath as a spiritual rhythm. So disruption doesn't always mean, you know, screaming, yelling, marching down the street. It could be like I am just defiant in my choice to follow Jesus. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:20] Speaker B: And the ways that he modeled whatever that is. [00:18:24] Speaker A: I think there's a lot of self awareness and looking at our own motivation. Right. Like you said, it has. If it's just about being right, if it's just about keeping the status quo, if it's just about this is what my denomination says or my bylaws, or this is the way it's always been and we have to keep it the same. Or is it about actually loving people, making things better, you know, helping the marginalized, like reflecting the love of Jesus more? I think there's a lot that comes with honestly checking our own motivations and being self aware. Enough to go, why am I feeling the need to do this? [00:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And what is my hope on the other side of this? What do I want to see? Am I there to embarrass, to shame, to hear the sound of my own voice? Or is this attention that I'm feeling a weight from the Holy Spirit of, like, this. Like, guys, we're not praying enough. Like, we've. I love this new system or whatever it is, but I just really feel like we're losing our way here. And I just want to speak truth to that. There's a way. There is a way to be a holy disruptor that doesn't tear down and shred people's emotions. And I encourage people to stand for truth, to model what Jesus modeled, and to hold fast to that. That's why as a woman, especially a woman of color who is a minister and does ministry, as a faith leader, I know that Jesus advocated for women. I know his heart for women and how he encouraged women to serve, to lead, to speak, to be fully engaged in who they are in ministry. And so I will not bow to any other ideology that says that I am not to walk in those full truths. And so I'm disruptive in that sense. But I take the lead from Jesus there. He literally went out of his way to go in the way of advocating for women. And we can go through so many different women that he did that for. But it was always this beautiful disruption. You know, either heading to Jairus House, but literally stopping for the woman to be assured blood, going out of his way to go to Sakar to meet with the woman at the well, like, and going a route that no one took. As an Orthodox Jew, you do not go that way. We have, like, the plague. They thought even their shadow would become corrupted if it intertwined with a Samaritan shadow. So Jesus is always going out of the way to go in the way to advocate for women. And so in that example, when someone's like, cheryl, why are you such a disruptor in this area? Because I am following literally the feet and model of Jesus here. Women matter to him. Their voices matter to him, and their gifts matter to him. So, yeah, yeah. [00:21:22] Speaker A: And the only way to follow the way of Jesus is to know the whole story. There's no proof texting. There's no. But this one verse says this. Like, you have to realize that God is doing a whole thing in Scripture and Jesus had a whole life. And so, yeah, it's following the patterns. And listen, we could go on a whole. A whole tangent with that, I'm going to pull us back. Maybe I'll have you on again. We'll talk about minute ministry, but I want you to talk about power a little bit. And I want to encourage our listeners now becoming church listeners already know we are a place to have conversations and to challenge thinking and have new perspectives. We don't always promise answers or clarity here, and we also really welcome people who think differently than we do. But just in case this is somebody's first episode, you know, I want to say, all right, let's everybody take a breath. Like when you hear the word privilege or discomfort or dominant culture, like, don't turn it off, stick with it. Because I think that sometimes one of the most damaging things that stops future progress or change is people who are unwilling to listen or see themselves as part of this conversation, right? [00:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. [00:22:37] Speaker A: What do you think it is, is that they don't acknowledge that they're part of the puzzle or that they feel guilt when it comes to looking at discrepancies and the way other people live different from them. [00:22:49] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, like just, just, just from the ground level as we begin this conversation, you know, I just find it, I find it challenging for us to even get to a place of understanding, to a place of maybe openness, change, healing, reconciliation, unity. All the things that, all the beautiful, wonderful Jesus things that we're hoping to come out of conversations with. It's challenging, you know, when those who are in the dominant culture don't even want to, like, you know, acknowledge or, you know, reconcile with the fact that they are living, working, serving, operating from a place of privilege. It's so important to just name it, to just name it that I am in a place and space where I have a different life experience. And when we don't acknowledge that there is privilege there or that there is a different sort of way of being and understanding and experience, it prevents an honest conversation. And when we don't have honest conversations, then we can't sit in the tension and allow hope to rise. We, you know, difficult conversations, hope does not come. And transformation in particular doesn't come in these moments without sitting in tension, without allowing difficult conversations to cause both sides to be shaped and changed, to maybe see clearer. And so, you know, I'm really hopeful around these conversations, and I feel that they're necessary to shift power, to bring us to a more Jesus centered, to recalibrate our hearts. And also, I just believe that redemption lies in discomfort. Sometimes in order to get free, we have to acknowledge that we're first bound in certain areas. [00:24:45] Speaker A: So yeah, I think as a white woman, I think there's a lot of guilt that comes with trying to start having these conversations because just there's a lot of guilt. Right. There's a lot of like, should we feel, should people in dominant culture feel guilt? Is there a difference between guilt and discomfort? [00:25:06] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting because we've really made this word guilt such a horrible. It's such an interesting thing. And what amazes me is when I hear anyone say I don't ever want to feel guilty about something. And what you're saying when you translate that, especially in our Christian context, is that we don't want to feel conviction. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:34] Speaker B: And that is the work of the Holy Spirit. That literally is one of the chief things that the Spirit of God does in us is to calibrate, to convict, to teach, to, you know, the Bible, the old word calls it the old King James says admonish. It's this idea of the pricking of the heart, the convicting of the heart to bring us back to the places that we need to be in God. And so to say that I don't ever want to feel that I don't want to feel guilt around something, it's a very dangerous place. I think that if we understand that this is biblical conviction versus a man's version of guilt and shame and that this is actually what God is calling us to. To understand that, you know, he created all of us equally, that we are all made in the image of God and that there is place and space for all of us at the table. You know, that it's thy kingdom come, it's the fullness the church is called to reflect the fullness of the kingdom of God. Biblical conviction should lead us to good works. I think man's guilt and shame, if we don't allow the spirit of God to take it, it can lead us to very dark, bitter places. And so I encourage people to let the Holy Spirit do the work here. When we talk about these, you know, have these conversations around power and privilege and what Jesus centered power looks like, which is very opposite to how we've been living. [00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Before we get to the different types of power. Yeah. I think it goes back again, like you said earlier, to the voice. Right. What is the outcome of the guilt or of the shame? And what does it sound like? Does it sound condemning? Does it sound shaming? If so that's not of God or is there an outcome? Is there a reason that you're feeling convicted to make this change or take a look at maybe what you've been complicit in, or the way you voted, or the things that you've said, or the behaviors you've. You've done. What's, what's the, what does it sound like? What is the feeling that comes with it and what is it leading you to? And if all it's leading you to is shame, condemnation. Yeah, it's probably not of God, it's probably not of the Holy Spirit, but if it is, then we gotta pay attention to that. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah. My, my heart, my prayer is that everyone would feel a disruption to good works. Right. Like that, troubling that, that troubled heart that leads to living better, loving better, serving better. [00:28:20] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so talk to me about. You mentioned there were seven types of power, and then you talked about Jesus power. So unpack that for us a little bit. [00:28:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, when we talk about what Jesus centered power is, I think the first thing we need to talk about is what it isn't. And so here's like just a working definition of what like empirical power has become, right? [00:28:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:44] Speaker B: So, and this is maybe a good litmus test for people. Like if you are in a play space, if you are living this way, might be a, like that. We said that conviction moment for you. So power that needs to be preserved, power that needs to be protected, reinforced through violence, power that needs to be preserved through intimidation, through oppression of the other, violence that forces people to marginalize the other so that they can retain and hold power in some way in a space or a place or a system that is not Jesus centered power. In fact, it's the opposite of that. I just feel like, I just want to say that again. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:25] Speaker B: If you are holding on to power and you are feeling the threat of it leaving, and it causes you to, to make decisions based on holding power, if you are preserving it through corruption, choices, you know, favoritism, prejudice, bias, whatever. If you are protecting it through violence, intimidation, if you're protecting it through oppression. So in order, in other words, you have it and are holding onto it by forcing others down so that they have no access. And that keeps you sort of in the places and spaces of power. That's none of that is Jesus centered power. Jesus centered power is the opposite of that. So there are seven systems of power. I won't get into like all the nitty and the gritty, but when we talk about the power of the world and how Jesus lives so opposite to that and how his power is other than different. From, you know, we're talking about, like, political power is one system of power that we all unfortunately have operated in, are operating in. Where I'd say this again, and this is where we talked about. You were saying, like, is it. Is it important to be a disruptor still to this day? The reason I say yes is because of this, because there are empirical systems that are threatening to lead their way into the holy church of God. And so there's this. So those that are disruptors have to say, hey, like, politics has no place in the holy sacred sanctuary of God. And so, you know, and we are. We are guided and convicted by another set of morals and rules of, you know, that come from Jesus, from the Bible itself, that we are not divided by these political parties, but it's really the blood of the Lamb that unites all of us. So, like, those kinds of things. So political power is another one. Governmental power is the second one. Judicial power is the third. And that's like power granted by government to interpret the side laws. We've got military power, which we know about. Religious power is, unfortunately, where we have fallen short here. It's the institutional power that drives world religion, dictates individual tenets of faith, but sometimes to the point of being extremist, where people are losing their lives all around the world over religious wars, religious stances. So that's unfortunate. Economic power and systemic power. And I think this is where I want to just kind of hang my hat just for this conversation. Systemic power is the belief, the practice, the enforcing of cultural norms in which individual lives or institutions are literally built upon. It's rooted in social constructions of, like, gender and race. And we start to. That's where we start to build the categories, Kristen. Like, we start to, like, build the camps of things. And throughout history to the present day, it has informed a lot of how we do things. This is where systems of power like this reinforce things like patriarchy, supremacist thinking, the idea that one group is better than the other, and so on. So none of this is Jesus power. And it is, again, a power that holds, that preserves, that intimidates, that oppresses. It's not the heart of God. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I want to. Now there's a. There's a lot to unpack there, and people can certainly dig into, you know, whichever system of power that kind of pricked at their spirit. But since you and I have bonded, connected, talked so often, right. About women in ministry, and it even came up earlier, you mentioned gender. Right. Have you actually. Have you seen the Barbie movie yet? [00:33:20] Speaker B: I just saw it yesterday, girl. [00:33:23] Speaker A: Did you love it? [00:33:24] Speaker B: I loved it. [00:33:25] Speaker A: God, I love it so much. I walked out of the theater and I was like, I gotta find somebody else to go again because I want to see this again. The reason I ask is I think one of the biggest misconceptions about that movie is that it's anti mental, but it's not anti men. Like, one of the big messages is that it's anti patriarchy, right? It's anti suppression. It's anti the belief that, like, men and women should operate differently and under different authorities. And so just as one of these examples of a power that is not Jesus power, what is the difference between being anti man and anti patriarchy? [00:34:02] Speaker B: Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, come on. Oh, you got me excited there. When you are a holy disruptor, your heart beats for the things that God's heart beats for. And it is frustrated and I'd say almost disgusted with the things that, you know, break God's heart. And so when you are speaking against patriarchy or you're someone that finds himself in that space doing that work, you can honestly say, I love my brothers. I love men of God. I call them to their place, to rise in purpose, to walk in the fullness of their destiny, to be all that God has called them to be, to be the leaders that they're called to be in the church and the home and all of that, and pray them up with tears and a genuine heart of, like, championing. But you can also speak to the system that is dark, that is not of God, that has oppressed a generation, generations upon generations of women that have marginalized, that have silenced their voices, women who have literally lost the ability to speak their opinions, their thoughts, their heart, their dreams lost in this dark ocean of patriarchy. We can speak to that system. We can call it out and still have a heart for men. And so it's. It's separating the, you know, the love of humanity from the dislike or the, I wouldn't say hatred, that's such a strong word, but the dislike of a system. [00:35:52] Speaker A: Yeah, girl, come on, let's go. Listen, you said. Yeah, I think in the simplest terms, right? We as women, we love men, we are for men. We are going to champion them and pray for them and cheer them on. And how about, I don't know, maybe they also think the same thing about us. [00:36:16] Speaker B: How about that? I mean, right, like, right. [00:36:21] Speaker A: I feel like that's the simplest way. Men also value women and pray for women and champion women and platform Women and listen to women's voices and see our value and listen to things that we have to say. Because they also believe that God speaks to us and through us and to us just the same as he speaks to them. I mean. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the difference. Yeah, that's the difference. Then, you know, I'm thinking right now about like just taking you all the way back to the days of Jesus walking the earth. Rabbinical prayers back then we're talking about patriarchy as a mindset. We're not talking about loving mankind and laying our lives down and serving and loving our neighbor as ourselves. We're talking about a mindset and a system. And I think about rabbinical prayers where they would say every day, multiple times as part of their prayers, God, I'm so God, thank you not making me a gentile, an imbecile or a woman. And those were. And those were the honest, legitimate prayers of, you know, of the Orthodox Jews in the time, you know, rabbinical prayers. And so that is the mindset that we're trying to recalibrate, that there is a massive call on women in the church that God has a place of space and a path for them and it's equal to. It's the same as, you know, it belongs also in the house of God and in the church. Big C church. Yeah. And so like this idea of Jesus centered power, I just want to say it's a way unlike any other system of power. It brings hope to the hopeless. When you think about these other systems, they take hope away, they take voice away, they take identity away. They cause people to feel invisible. But Jesus centered power actually brings identity. It names, it includes those in the margins. It brings those in the margins into the center. It's a powerful. It brings power to those that have felt powerless. It's a different kind of power that operates outside of these empirical systems, but yet is powerful enough that when you bring it in to the church, when you bring it into even these systems, you can redeem it. There's so many places that, you know, Christians have come in and, you know, place. I think about places where Christians are working and operating and have brought like a recalibration of mindsets and hearts. And so this beautiful way of Jesus changing our hearts from the inside out. But we can also change systems from the inside out as well. [00:39:13] Speaker A: So, Cheryl, give us a couple practicals. Like once we're able to recognize maybe the damage that's been done by systems we've supported, or once people are finally able to have that like eye opening moment. Because I do think everybody has to have this moment where kind of the blinders are taken off to maybe the inequality that is around them. How can we practically move forward to be a disruptor in the right way in this Jesus centered power. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to, I'm so glad you asked this. So I want to just like read a little excerpt from this book that I fell in love with a long time ago. Andy Crouch playing God. And it's called Redeeming the Gift of Power if anybody's read it. So it's an older book 13, but he, he kind of sits in John 13 for a minute and he recalls the time where Jesus was watching the disciples feet and he notes like how important this moment is for all of us when we're thinking and talking about power. And he says that in this moment where Jesus washes the feet of the disciples. I love this moment, Kristen, that he's not giving up power. And this is why I'm saying this because it's so important for the next part of our conversation. But he, he redefines it for us forever. The Bible says John 13, verses 3 to 5, that Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power and they had come from God and was returning to God. So he got up from the meal, he took off his outer clothing. This is Jesus now. And wrapped a towel around his waist. After that he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples feet, drying them with the towel he had wrapped around them. The disciples knew about Jesus's immense power and they were blown by this. They didn't even understand what was happening. Some of them were like very upset. It felt wrong. Like what is like knowing who he is. This felt upside down to them. But I love what he said and I just want to say this, like in this moment he is literally not relinquishing power. This idea of serving this upside down kingdom that he was shaping from the beginning, but he's exercising power by laying it down willingly. And this is where we're going to be going. What does Jesus centered power look like for us? It's a constant laying down and deferring and yielding to the other. So opposite to empire. I'll end with this. Jesus says to them, because they're all like shook as we say, shook it. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Peter's like back it up. Don't wash my feet. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah, please don't, please don't, please don't. Jesus says, do you understand what I have done for you? You call me teacher and Lord and rightly so, for this is what I am. And so it's so beautiful because like there's no false humility in Jesus. They're fully aware of his power, yet he serves, he shows what it means, means to walk in true Jesus centered power. So here's what it is, here's how we walk it out. So Jesus centered power is the opposite to empirical power. It's not tight fisted, it's not hoarded, it's not remember any, any power that is fought for, preserved, retained by oppression, marginalization of the oppressive. It's open handed. Jesus centered power is open handed and it's easily surrendered to the other, one to the other. And it's in this posture of, and here's the two big words for us that we need to live in. Like, like literally live in generosity and mission. It's this idea that the power that I have comes from within. It's this Dunamis power. The Bible says the same power that rose Jesus Christ right from the dead lives in us. So what does it look like to display this power every day? It's to lay down our lives, it's to be generous, to extend, to esteem our brother higher than ourselves, which would instantly cancel racism, which would instantly cancel patriarchy. If we understood the scripture, girl, you and me are like, ooh, I feel the Holy Spirit right here. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Yes, right. [00:43:27] Speaker B: If we understood, understood what it meant to esteem our brothers higher. And that brother is generic. It means brother and sister. Let's not like, can you just. We're talking about mankind, people, but people and, and to serve. You know, like I always say, the gospel, we've complicated it. We've made it so complicated, oh my gosh. That it has turned off a generational, a generation of Gen Z and millennial young people that are just like, ugh, love God, love people, serve God, serve people. Man, do we struggle in that last couple of ones and especially the serving people because that causes us to have to leave the self made thrones of hierarchy that we have created that say, I'm higher than you, I'm above you, I'm better than you, you, I'm, you know, whatever you want to say, more privileged than you. And God is saying, no, I've called you to lay that down. I've called you not to be identified by that, but to be identified by your service. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Not to be identified with the stuff you have or who you are. So that's number one, is like we're being called to lay it down in a posture of generosity and mission. And then two would be. Jesus centered power is a power that looks like radical welcome. [00:44:53] Speaker A: Oh, come on. This is my heartbeat right here. Yes. [00:44:58] Speaker B: So like we're like, we're world systems of power. Like, you know, like they're built to alienate, to separate, to divide, like to exclude this. Jesus centered power is opposite. It actually seeks to bring in the marginalized, to welcome people, to make them feel like part of the family. Not adopted. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Because guess what, they are. Has they just the same as we are? [00:45:24] Speaker B: I'm so glad that this is not a video because you just see, you just lose it, people. I was losing it. I was doing the Pentecostal shake. I was doing the Pentecostal shake. But. And here's what I want to say about this. And this is just to everyone that's listening, listening church, just lean in. Invitation, Sorry, invitation, yeah. Is not welcome. You are doing Jesus, the church, the body of Christ, no favors by just inviting people in and then leaving them to feel othered. [00:46:00] Speaker A: Yes, ma'am. [00:46:01] Speaker B: I have been invited into, and I'll give you a working example, I've been invited into spaces and places all over the world to speak and I've been invited to these beautiful big platforms and thought, wow, look at what God's doing. He's unifying, he's bringing diversity in. And there's been some conferences that never ever had it since. So I'm like, wow, look what the Lord has done to go there and have not one person speak to me. [00:46:25] Speaker A: Oh, heartbreaking. [00:46:28] Speaker B: No, literally, in a green room by myself. We're ready for you, Cheryl. You're on in five. Thanks so much. We're going to be going over here. Let's take a picture. And so, so in that example, and let's, let's take it back to our own local churches opening the doors, having programs. Gosh, we could program our way to a dark place. I don't want, I don't want to say the word. But we, we think that programs are salvation, programs are welcome, programs are the table that we've invited people. That's not it. To the church. We, gosh, we are in love with programs. We are obsessed with programs. And we feel so good about the programs that we put together because they bring people in. But invitation falls flat if there is no spirit of welcome that comes with it. And so in what way ways are you fostering a spirit of welcome and a spirit of inclusion in your ministries that embraces, that doesn't cause people to physically be in the room, but to be emotionally, relationally Othered and feeling like they're not part of. [00:47:43] Speaker A: I did a whole entire message on this at the Mosaics conference. [00:47:49] Speaker B: Of course you did. Of course you did. [00:47:52] Speaker A: Literally. Because we have all these churches, right. And it was post pandemic that they're like, our doors are open, welcome home, you belong here. Blah, blah, blah. But then if somebody walks in and no one speaks to them, like you said, or it's very clear that they're like, listen, you can be in the room and sit in our chair, but actually don't sit in that chair because that's for my girl. Or this is for our people and you're a guest. [00:48:18] Speaker B: And. [00:48:18] Speaker A: And so, like, we're going to talk to you during the meet and greet time. But really, that's all, like, there is. Inclusion is about people actually feeling like they're part of the family and that they are not only welcome to be there just to fill up a seat, but because you actually want them to be there. You want to get to know them because you value them and their presence in your space. [00:48:40] Speaker B: And also, welcome is also very social. But welcome can also have a deeper sense of a feeling that I can access any room. So, like, I could come into a home, I could be part of a foster family and always sit in a corner and wait to be asked, are you hungry? We're going to eat now and wait to be asked, do you need to go to the bathroom? And I could be holding it, bursting. Kristin. Oh, wow. [00:49:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:12] Speaker B: Or I could come into a place and be given this loving freedom, this feeling of worth and identity and welcome that I am comfortable that I can access the bathroom on my own, that I can open. Open the fridge, have a drink when I'm thirsty. And why am I saying that? Because there are people, there are churches and systems that are literally set up that we know. And this is. I gotta circle back to our women, to our sisters, that we could live in a family and never be able to access certain places. [00:49:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:46] Speaker B: So that, to me, is like this partial welcome. I'm allowed to. I'm invited in, but I'm not welcome to lead. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:53] Speaker B: I'm not welcomed in this area or in that area. [00:49:57] Speaker A: Yeah, you're not welcome to actually be who you are with value and because you matter. You're just welcome to be in here, honestly, so that we can use you. Like the fact that you're like, nobody wants to talk to you, but they want to take a picture with you and post it up that, oh, we had a black female speaker. Ah, I Can't like that disgusts me. [00:50:19] Speaker B: Pause, pause. I'm just going to call the choir up at this time. We're going to collect the offering because we've had quite a sermon just now. We're going to sing Near My God to thee and E. Somebody is preaching hard over there. Okay. [00:50:35] Speaker A: Oh, this is so good. It's so good. [00:50:38] Speaker B: It's so good. I got two more and we don't even have to dig into them, but let me just say them in there. [00:50:41] Speaker A: Yeah, go. [00:50:43] Speaker B: I just want to say, like Jesus centered power, we're talking about, like how this power is different from other than. It's a power that makes all things equal. And this is kind of what we've been talking about. Yeah, it's this idea like where, you know, other systems, empirical systems, live off of barriers, structures, hierarchy, categories like inequity all around. The Jesus centered power system says we are all equal in the sight of God. We are all made in the imago dei, the image of God. We are all children, sons and daughters. And we know in the last days that God will pour out his spirit and all his sons and daughters will prophesy. And so it's this idea of having all things equal. I think about the Pentecost and this sort of birth of the church. And the birth of the church came with the, with the Dunamis power of God coming down, being filled with the spirit empowered to do these greater things in his name. But also they sold everything. They had all things common. They were all sort of like coming into this space being equal. And you know, somewhere along the line we've been losing that. So. Yeah, I just want to say that. [00:51:57] Speaker A: That'S a perspective we need to like. You can't fight systems of any kind of oppression. Like you said, be it racism or gender or whatever. If you are still looking at another people group as other or different from you or. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Or less. Or less or less than. [00:52:14] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah. That Imago Day piece is so important. [00:52:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's funny because. And you know, there's. Here's the, here's the holy disruption again. Did Jesus not stop and pause and go against the grain for lepers and women? And though the sick and the poor and the impoverished and it was always intentional, beyond intentional. He wanted them to take note and to learn and he went out of his way to show us that everyone is equal in the sight of God. [00:52:47] Speaker A: Yeah, we've missed that for sure. [00:52:49] Speaker B: We've missed that. And then the last piece, which is funny because Mosaic, I think, is like leading the charge in so many ways in this area. But Jesus centered power. When you understand it in its fullness, this idea of welcome, this idea of open handed leadership, surrendering, this idea of equality, all things being equal, then you will naturally form a burden. A burden will be formed in your heart for social justice. You will naturally cry out against what is injust and wrong, against oppression. Those things would be a disdain, like a prick. That's that holy discontent we were talking about, that troubling that comes first, that causes the. The wanting to disrupt that system. [00:53:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, Cheryl. So there's so much good stuff for people to dig into. All right. So for anybody that's listening, that is like, this is overwhelming. I'm just now starting to, like, find my social justice voice. You know, I think there's an idea out there that once you start to advocate for one thing, then you realize how many other marginalized people and groups there are who are also worthy of being championed and fought for. And while I do believe that we should care about every single person God has created, which again, is all of them, I don't think that we're necessarily wired up to advocate for all of them. So how do we decide, like, which groups to fight for and then let go of the guilt when we don't have the capacity of fighting for everyone? [00:54:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so good. Because this sort of like justice exhaustion that we face of like trying to right the wrongs and all of that, that's a very real thing. I want to encourage people to treat this call to social justice, this call to holy disruption, as they would their own personal calls to ministry and to maybe something in their walk with God, part of their covenant and beautiful communion with God. Treat it the same way. And what do I mean by that? Pray. Pray and say, God, who are the people that you're placing on my heart? What is the people group that you are leading me to? Or even sit with yourself and say, what is the burden that I have? And it's usually the place that you have the most tension, the thing that upsets you the most. When you see that where you're like, that is wrong, or those kids are being trafficked and that really, like, I can't. That's the thing that breaks my heart the most or gets me upset the most or, or, you know, I'm upset about, you know, how the indigenous have been treated. And that's something I've been just learning about and been on this path. I. Something about it is intriguing me And I want to learn more. So sit with yourself and just ask the Holy Spirit to reveal that. And yes, know that you are called to play your own very small part in the area. That is your passion, that is your burden. You don't have to take it all on because God is raising up just this awesome generation of holy disruptors who are speaking to everything not at once, but in their own day to day lives and they're doing work in that area. And it's amazing when you pray this prayer and you ask God to break your heart for what breaks his, that's usually the prayer that leads you down this path of justice work. And it's funny because Cornel west, another brilliant professor and social justice advocate, said, justice is what love looks like in public. Sis. Justice is what love looks like in public. So when you're saying God, where can I display the love of God? In what areas would you call me to just sit and wait for that answer and then begin to do the work in that area. Find out more, make some calls. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Learn. [00:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah, learn. See where you can serve, maybe just on a Sunday afternoon, a couple of hours and see where that leads you. Take it one step at a time. [00:57:17] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, just like we can't do every career, right? You've got teachers, our teachers, because they're bent towards children. And you've got doctors and nurses and surgeons because they're bent towards, you know, helping people heal and physicality and bodies and all of that. I think it's the same, right? We, God does. He puts a specific people group on our heart and that's when we go, all right, I'm going to add my tiny little voice to all the other voices who are championing these people. And it's okay that I'm not championing, you know, this group of people because someone else is, because God has wired up other people to care about them in that way and to champion them. And that's the beautiful thing about this whole big diverse world that God has made and that it's given us. We all come together and if we will all listen to that Holy Spirit and we, if we will all be brave enough to humbly change, right. And model leadership and advocacy, then everyone will actually be covered. [00:58:20] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. Yeah. And that's, and that's our prayer is that this conversation and conversations you've been having and these places of tension you've been exploring, that they just recalibrate you recalibrate your heart and set you on a new way of Being set you on a new path of, like, how do I live differently? How do I. How do I model this love of God? How do I let go and work? And where, especially if you're in the dominant culture, where can I lay down my power to open the door, extend, welcome, allow people to sit at the table? Maybe you're in a place where you can actually say, I want this person to speak, and I have the power to make that happen. I see the gift on her life or his life. Maybe a person that's of color or whatever the group is. But just like, I have the ability to make small changes, and so I'm going to yield my power to do that. [00:59:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so good. I'm going to ask you one more question, and then I will let you go. Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How do you see being a holy disruptor in alignment with Jesus's call for our listeners to become the church to people around them? [00:59:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Becoming the church is disruption in itself. What you're saying is that we, we are going to be the living church. We are going to model and walk out what we are reading, preaching, singing, speaking about, praying about. We are going to shift culture and we're going to flip this thing upside down. Becoming Church is literally walking in defiance to world systems. We will be love, we will serve, we will yield, we will surrender, we will welcome, we will equalize, we will give voice to. We will love on. All of these things are disruptive to the systems that are out there. [01:00:37] Speaker A: Amen. We will take it outside of our church building and our church hour into the world that actually needs it. Let's go. [01:00:45] Speaker B: Come on. It's a new way to live. [01:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I love it. Oh, thank you so, so much for being here. I know that this is going to help people and challenge people and encourage people and give them some practical tips on how they can be holy disruptors in their worlds as well. [01:01:04] Speaker B: Thank you so much, man. I. Listen, guys, you have an incredible gift in this woman right here. Can I just say that on fire, I'm from Canada. If I could. If I could pack her up in a suitcase, she would not be returning home. I'm not talking about kidnapping people, just recruitment. [01:01:22] Speaker A: So sweet. We will link up all of your socials and all of the things that you're doing, your podcasts, your shows, everything in the show notes. So if you guys want more of Cheryl, and I know that you will just scroll down and all of the links will be there. Cheryl gave us so much to think about if this episode brought up further questions or you felt stirred to take action somewhere but don't really know how to start. There are a few ways we'd love to continue to support you. First, check out the show notes below. We always link up relevant resources that will help you extend the conversation. Second, go to Mosaic's Resource tab at Mosaic Church. Third, you can always reach out to me through Instagram dms, which is also tagged below. Until then, thanks for listening and keep becoming church to the people around.