Critical Thinking with Vivian Mabuni

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Have you noticed a collapse in critical thinking lately? You can blame AI, public education, the infinite scroll epidemic, or any variety of other things, but I think we can all agree that there's cause for concern if we're mistaking consumption for information. I'm Kristen Muckler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Today I'm talking with speaker, author, leader, and overall delight of a human being, Vivian Mubani. And she's here to encourage us all to think more deeply beyond the sound bites and the opinions of others. In this conversation, Viv will focus on women because that's who she leads. But her wisdom applies to anyone who's playing small, minimizing their voice, or is afraid to step into the influence that God is calling them to. Vivian, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Hey. Thank you for having me. [00:01:08] Speaker B: So excited. We were talking, you know, before recording. We know so many people in common, and so I kind of can't believe that you haven't been here yet. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Oh, well, I'm thrilled to be here. And it's always great to know mutual friends because that sends. That sets it up for a kindred spirit kind of experience. So very fun. [00:01:27] Speaker B: And a lot of them have been on this show, too, and it's people that are listen. Not that all of my guests aren't fun. You know, everybody is, like, talented in their own way, but we've had some really hilarious. Jamie Nadeau's been on here. Amy Seifen here. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Jess Connolly. Like, we've had a lot of fun pre. Like, we've had a lot of fun. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:01:45] Speaker B: With your friends. [00:01:46] Speaker A: All the best. All the best women. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Well, you are a key element of this new women's leadership cohort at Denver Seminary. And so we will get into that a little bit more in a minute. But first, just tell us kind of how your faith has evolved to get you to the point of being on a board for a cohort like this. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I have been in vocational Christian ministry for 37 years with a parachurch organization. And so I've done a lot of College Ministry, 28 years of working with college students. Grew a passion myself when I was in college to see the importance of discipleship and evangelism and training believers, helping them be equipped. My own faith journey did not grow up in a Christian home, so culturally Buddhist. Came to Christ in high school, made a real. A very genuine decision of surrender when my dad moved our whole family after 17 years in Boulder, Colorado, to Hong Kong right before my senior year of high school. Yeah, it was. It was just. Yeah, it wrecked every. [00:02:56] Speaker B: I had to move. Listen, I had to move from Michigan to Illinois in the middle of high school, and that ruined my life. So I can't even imagine. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Hong Kong. Oh, my God. To Hong Kong. I know. And I grew up speaking Mandarin Chinese, but Cantonese is the dialect they use in Hong Kong, and it might as well have been Polish, like, so I was without any securities. But God came through for me in Hong Kong in such a profound and intimate way. He used the church where that was the first time I met Christians who genuinely lived what they believed. And through that whole experience where God heard the angry cries of a teenager in the middle of Hong Kong, he came through. And so I gave him my whole life. Surrendered my whole life. And I came to college looking to plug in to some kind of ministry. You know, can I find university Campus crusade navigators. I was looking for a space where I could be with other believers that would live out their faith in a real, genuine. So ended up majoring in crew and minoring in marketing. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:14] Speaker A: And just jumped in. And then when I graduated, joined staff and 37 years of ministry. My husband and I currently serve with Family Life, which is the division of crew that does marriages and family. [00:04:28] Speaker B: I didn't realize that was part of crew. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Surprise Crusade Christ. Right. And now it's just. [00:04:36] Speaker A: It's just crew. So we do family life ministry. And we are on the speaker team for the weekend to Remember Marriage Conference, which is a totally different thing. So going back to, like, the journey of the evolving of faith. I think because I didn't grow up in a Christian home, I was really, really desirous to honor God, obey him, and become like, whoever I was around. And so I was exposed to a lot of people who I think in. In that time, back in the 1900s. Kristen, me too. [00:05:12] Speaker B: That's what I was into. [00:05:14] Speaker A: But, you know, a lot more black and white. And I think that was part of just my development as well. Like, very black and white, thinking very clear. And in many way felt like I had to shut down some of my own gifting because my context said, you know, I just needed to respond and not initiate or things like that. You know, just that kind of messaging which I took to heart. And when I got married, my. We'd be married for 35 years come this summer to my wonderful husband. We have not killed each other, which is amen, you know, evidence of the existence of God. Oh, my goodness. It has been a journey for sure. And I. We love each other. And it's been hard. It's been really hard. So anyway, the marriage and three kids and all of life. Breast cancer survivor. There's just all these different things. But my faith has evolved in a way that I think expands to include more mystery. It has expanded to include a more robust picture of the involvement of God's people, where it's. It's like there's just way too much to hold back. Like, don't hold back. So that's kind of been a space for me. And, you know, so there's evolving with. Even bringing together my ethnic identity, you know, and the. In the cultural piece and being able to embrace that as well, that my faith isn't just individualistic like I was brought up in, but more collective, like my culture, which real. I realize now it's like, this is a gift to the church, to the body of Christ, is the totality of who I am. So as a woman, as an Asian American with both Western and Eastern values, that those things contribute to this tapestry that is the church. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Capital C. No, I love it so much. Listen, I have to send you. My first book is coming out in October, and I'm going to have to get you a copy because literally everything that you just talked about from moving from like a black and white, you know, everything is quote, unquote, clear into literally. You said expanding, like into the mystery of God, which is. I think you pulled that phrase right out of my, like, book summary. So. [00:07:48] Speaker A: See, we're already on the same wavelength. Kristen. It's beautiful. [00:07:53] Speaker B: Before we move on too much, I need to go back to Hong Kong. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Because I have so many questions. So our lead pastor and my best friend in Boston, he grew up Muslim and then became a Christian. So now he is an ex Muslim Christian pastor of a very diverse church. [00:08:11] Speaker A: Wow. [00:08:11] Speaker B: So I know his story, but I've never talked to someone who was a. But grew up Buddhist and then became a Christian. So will you tell us a little bit? Like, what did your family think? Did Jesus get you all at the same time? Like, just tell me a little more about that. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Sure. So we have, like. So I would consider myself culturally Buddhist. So I grew up in Boulder. So Boulder itself is just kind of hippie granola and very, you know, crystals and open mind. So I kind of grew up in that environment where there's a lot of tolerance for all different types of beliefs and backgrounds. Culturally Buddhist in that we Would, you know, do what people in China have done for centuries, which is kind of like the Mulan cartoon, you know, where you're burning incense, it's kind of like cocoa a little bit, you know, like there was a real reverence for those who have passed and a way to honor and remember. So I remember growing up, like we would burn incense, we invite the spirits of my dead grandparents to come and partake in this beautiful meal that was set out for them. And we would bow and. And it was less worship, more reverence, you know, more of an honoring. And to be honest, the, the Buddhist part didn't impact any part of my life. [00:09:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Apart from those little ceremonies. Interestingly now, as a believer for so long, I think there are a lot of cultural Christians too. Like people that just kind of go through the motions and, you know, just do the things like Christmas Eve service, light the candle, but it doesn't impact their day to day life. And that would be the biggest difference. So Hong Kong for me was a time when, you know, I had a very shallow understanding of who God was. Certainly no one to help me learn the Bible. So I drove myself to the mall and bought my first Bible and tried reading it. It did not make sense at all. I'm like, who. What are all these measurements and all of the names of these kings? I can't keep track of them. And what. I mean, how does. So it just, it. There was such a huge disconnect and some of it was just. I was trying to, in my own effort, put, you know, try to like, put on a, A Christian, like in the same way, culturally Buddhist. It's like, okay, I'm just gonna, I. I'm just doing the things I know to do. Yeah. So if I wake up in time, I'll go to church and I'll cry through all the songs. But come Monday, it, you know, life was no different. Formula, tactics. Exactly. So Hong Kong was a place really where a genuine surrender took place, where I remember giving God all that I knew of myself to all that I knew of him. And that began this intimate relationship with the Lord that shifted everything. And it. And again, I think the Holy Spirit was teaching me and leading me and guiding me because I was surrendered. I was in a posture of like, lord, I'm all in. I'm all in. And as a result, the scriptures came alive and was like, oh my gosh, I just needed this exact thing and I just could not get enough. Was so hungry to grow. And that's a lot of my Hong Kong journey. And I think it's been interesting because Darren, my husband, and I are the first Christians in our family. So we're like the first pancake. It's not very pretty, but it tastes okay, you know, so we, you know, came into Christian marriage and Christian parent, like, no background. I'm so thrilled to say that, you know, as of now, all of my. All of Darren's family have come to faith. So our. Our nephews and nieces, I mean, it's just been so beautiful. New legacy. Yeah. I'm still praying for my parents. You know, they're. They. But my sister is a believer, so. So it is amazing how the entire trajectory of families for generations and generations can be changed. And that's why we really do need to continue to speak out the truth of the gospel and really help believers to get rooted in their faith so that they can then continue exactly, you know, the discipleship that Paul and Jesus modeled. So. So I'm all for that. I'm all for that. Always and always. [00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all of that. Your. Your family and, you know, all those intimate parts of your. I don't know, Viv. I just feel like your parents, [00:13:08] Speaker A: I. [00:13:08] Speaker B: I bet that they're seeing Jesus in you maybe in a way that they, like, couldn't put a name to that. Yeah, well, I have no doubt that they are. They are seeing Jesus through you and your family and the way that you live. And so I just. I don't know, I feel like I need to just encourage you in that. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. It means a lot because, you know, I. For. As an Asian, you know, Chinese American, it's. It's kind of inappropriate in many ways for the daughter to tell the parents what to do or what to believe. So I keep praying that God will bring Christians their own age into their lives. So they'll come back and say, you know, I happen to sit next to another Christian and there's a bunch of Christians who knew about crew at the dinner we were at, you know, so I just think, like, oh, Lord, it's. It's and isn't it? Wouldn't it be just like God to use completely different people? You know, I. I can. We can do our part, and God is working in a way that we don't even understand. So. Yeah. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Oh, I feel like I could talk about just your story for forever. But we will move on. We'll move on. [00:14:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Because I want to talk about this women's leadership cohort that you helped start at Denver Seminary. What is a misconception that people have about a seminary or what did you see that was missing that made you be like, this is. We need to do this? [00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I have, you know, since. Since discovering more of even my own spiritual gifts and having it confirmed and recognizing like, I want to steward who God's made me to be, which includes teaching and in some form of leadership or teaching or something like that. Like, how do I do that? And it seemed very natural to get formally educated through seminary. Like, that just seemed like, you go to seminary, that's what one does. So I started seminary 36 years ago. That's 37 years now. But when I first joined, I went to seminary and I took graduate classes. I'm 22 years old and I'm sitting in a class with all like, middle aged married men. You know, like, it was just like one of my final projects. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Are you lost? [00:15:17] Speaker A: I know, I was so lost. And I was like, one of my final projects was a wrap. Wrote a rap for, you know, when my old, you know, so it's just like, I love it. So anyway, I always knew I wanted to go to seminary and finish seminary and then marriage and kids. And so when my youngest was in first grade, I thought, okay, I'm in Southern California, I'll go to Talbot. You know, it's very natural. So I applied and got in and started taking classes. It was amazing. And right into it, as I was getting into it, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So again, derailed. So it was off and on, off and on, off and on for years. And then about six years ago, I was invited to join the board at Denver Seminary, which was amazing. I mean, I've just not been around leaders like these that are on the board. So in the meantime in speaking and writing and meeting people, you know, I'm watching Chris Kane and like, she's doing the propel women's thing at Wheaton, and I'm like, I talked to her, Chris, what did you do? She goes, oh. Ed said, you know, I'm like, okay. So I leaned over to one of our faculty and one of the staff at Denver7. Do you think we could do something like what they're doing there? And they're like, sure. So then I was on a call with Lisa Harper and she's like, I've had this on my heart as well. I mean, it just feels like when God starts to put something on several people's hearts, it's like, yeah. So it was beautiful. So I ended up like personally inviting a group of women. The Very first guinea pig cohorts. All the women that you just listed and then some to be like, know [00:16:54] Speaker B: them all before or you just kind of them. [00:16:57] Speaker A: It was. I knew most of them personally and then they knew some friends too that they invited. And then it was kind of like that. So, so it was kind of like, buckle in. You're like, the guinea pig cohort. Like, we have no idea. And it was, it was built bumpy, Kristen. It was a bumpy ride. And yet it was like all God had put on their hearts that they had wanted to go to seminary. So the, the, the beauty. So I think the women's leadership cohort. Not. I think I know it was. I. I'm trying to build what I wish I had because I started and stopped and started and stopped so many times. And had I been with a group of women in that environment, I think that would have helped me finish because of having the camaraderie and the encouragement. So all the times I wanted to quit, someone would have, you know, called me out and encouraged me. And I think that's exactly what happened with this first cohort. So from there, there were more women and more women and more women. This past January, two cohorts came out of just the number of women that were. So it's been beautiful to see. And I just, every time I speak and I mention the women's leadership cohort, so they have a live class that they're watching over Zoom. Every, every summer they have a week long seminary camp intensive in person in Denver, three year. Everyone's taking the same classes for their master's in biblical theological studies. So there's just this camaraderie that builds. It's like, it's just a place. And I finished that same degree the year before them. So I kind of was warning them, like, okay, this, these classes, these, these are hard. So get ready. [00:18:44] Speaker B: There's a lot. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Yes. And I had. I don't know if you know Kelly Minter. She's also a Bible study. Yeah. So Kelly and I work. I, she became my cohort. My. We graduated together, but my Kelly. So we would have the offline conversations like, what is, what is this assignment? And having that makes all the difference. And I would say there were classes I, I had been in that I was the only woman. And that environment is. It can be intimidating and there. And I think that's what I love about Denver was that there was really a welcoming space to be in theologically. Like, you can have complementarians and egalitarians studying in the same classroom. And in fact, my teachers, I had two women. One was complementary and one was egalitarian teaching my GS500 class. And I loved that charitable orthodoxy. Like, we don't have to become enemies if we disagree on certain things. Like, we can actually sit together in the tension and look at the scriptures. And I thought that is what we need in the church, especially the United States, today more than ever. So that. That was part of the vision too, is like bringing together different women who already feel burdened to. To steward. Well, they're gifting, in many cases, this first cohort. They have an enormous platform on social media, and they feel the weight of, like, they don't want to teach what's not true in the Bible. You know, like, they. There's this genuine humility and responsibility to. To do. To do well. And it's. You can already see in their writing. It's changed their. Their tone and. And the substance. I mean, it's just so, so awesome. Kristen. I'm so thrilled. So I know. And they just graduated. [00:20:50] Speaker B: I know. You're so proud of them. So proud. Well, in two, like, three years will change anybody. Three years is a process. Right. If you commit to it. But also this group in particular, [00:21:02] Speaker A: I'm [00:21:02] Speaker B: like, how do I say this? They were in seminary through the change of an administration, politically. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:10] Speaker B: And so they have had to really lean in. And there is just. Social media has changed the way people talk about Christianity has changed. The way Christians show up in the world has changed, Viv, in a way that I would say is not great necessarily, and was not present before. And so not only are they taking what they've learned, and this is why I'm so proud to call so many of them friends. I can only imagine how proud you are of them is because I've watched them take what they learned and go, hey, we're gonna pull this straight out of scripture. Not. Not cherry pick verses here and there. [00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah, they do. [00:21:46] Speaker B: They are teaching in, like, Instagram Reels and TikToks and telling people, hey, this thing that is quote unquote labeled Christian is not actually Jesus. And here's my evidential proof of why. And so it's been amazing. They've. [00:22:02] Speaker A: The. [00:22:02] Speaker B: The education that they have received has just, like, gone tenfold already. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:07] Speaker B: And they just graduated. [00:22:09] Speaker A: I know, I know. It's. It's amazing. They are amazing. And I mean, truly, I'm so, so proud of them. They stuck it out and they stuck together. And I think that's such a beautiful Picture of what family and sisterhood mean in the body of Christ and in the church. Yeah. I just. It was just a little taste of what I think God really intended. And there's something about women. I don't think we're as ego driven and we're much more collaborative. I'm just using generalizations, of course. It's not always the case, but I've experienced women being much more generous. And so that's what. That's what this cohort experienced. I think there's. Everyone kind of brought. It's like that children's story where you make soup and everyone kind of contributes. Yeah. Stone soup. Right. That's what happened. Oh, my goodness. It was like, I have. Here's a lamb shank. Okay. I've got carrots. You know, I mean, it was just beautiful. And it ended up being so rich. And the experience of studying, but then the experience of the cohort itself made it well. [00:23:27] Speaker B: And I really think that for anybody that knows any of the people that were involved or has seen, you know, any of the posts, I truly think that it was healing. Even just for me watching in. Right. Like, I had FOMO so many times. I was like, I just want to be in that room. Teresa was like, fly out. Come to the graduation party. But I think it's something that women especially need to see is that not only can you learn these things and you can research and you can, you know, get your master's, but, like, female friendships like this are actually possible when we enter in with humility and not competition. [00:24:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:04] Speaker B: And it's just not the experience that a lot of women have had, even in the church. And so even just from the outside looking in, even if somebody is not interested at all in, like, going back to school, I think just watching the way these women have interacted and supported each other, I mean, truly, like, even for me, has just, like, healed something, you know? [00:24:22] Speaker A: That's beautiful. Yay. Yay. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Yay. [00:24:25] Speaker A: Yay. I'm glad. [00:24:28] Speaker B: Well, I want to kind of shift into the people that are listening. I know there are people listening, women and otherwise, who feel capable spiritually but hesitate to step into their leadership. Was there a moment in particular when you realized that, like, women weren't lacking in calling or gifting, but just, like, support or pathways or permission? [00:24:50] Speaker A: Yeah. What I realized. So for me, becoming a mom, I felt like my husband and I started off getting input and training and experiences and leadership and all of those things, but as soon as I became a mom, it was like I fell off a cliff. And I really had to cut my pat. My own path to figure out how to get back. And I. And that. I think women, we're. I was just talking with one of my good friends yesterday on a walk. We're like in the corporate world, you know, two. Two people, a husband and a wife can start off in the same place, but when they become a mom again, generalizations. But more often than not, the system is such that the woman literally loses 10 years of development and experience. And so even trying to re. Enter into corporate life, ministry life, whatever their. Their profession was, is. Is a hard. It's hard. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So for me, in the. And I would add that there are lessons that God teaches us in those quiet, dark, no one knows, no one sees seasons. I'm very grateful that the Lord allowed me to learn some of those lessons when no one else could see. I understand that. Yeah. Especially when they're hard. And then those are the places where our roots have to go even deeper. And this whole theme of humility comes out all over again. It's like, no one knows. No one's. Just the Lord. And is that enough? And is he enough? I mean, that's really what the question comes down to. So for me, the shift took place where I was not seeing women doing the things that I was hoping to do, and especially Asian American women. Like, I'm. I was scanning the books, you know, looking for Asian American women, Christian women writers. You know, I was looking at all the conference brochures, like, is there anyone that looks like me? And back in the 1900s and the. But, you know, I would just say it's been more recent that there have even been Asian American women on a main stage. I. And in the year of our Lord 2026, I still have people coming up telling me, you are the first woman I've ever heard teach or preach or speak. And. [00:27:35] Speaker B: First woman, period. [00:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Like, not Asian American. Okay. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Asian American. Asian American Dill. But still. [00:27:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:44] Speaker A: And. And there have been churches where I've been the first woman, so. Yeah, that too. Oh, is right. Is right. So I. So to me, there's. There's that sense of building what I wish I had. Yeah. And having a real passion to help make a way so that women can see what they can become. Or have someone go, this. This is how you do the thing. Because no one else. I mean, I remember with my first book proposal, it was completely backwards. I had been. I was a cancer survivor, so I had like, a medical blog that people kept reading and they really loved It. And several people said, oh, you should turn this into a book or something. And I'm like, I'm not a writer. I'm not, you know, so it was our daily bread that reached out to me and said, do you have a book proposal? And I'm like, ah, Google book proposal. You know, I'm like, I think this is like five spaces centered. You know, I'm like, I just. No idea, you know. And so it was, you know, stumbling along, but again, along the way, meeting other authors who then were able to help in seeing how that picture of a sisterhood can help all of us to move, move in a direction and to be resourced. So. So that's really the passion behind all of it for, for me is just trying to build what I wish I had in any environment. [00:29:20] Speaker B: So, Vivian, you must have, I mean, truly known and been confident that God was calling you to something because you are. Had to have been so brave. And I'm sure also nervous, like at the same time to go and do these things as the first female or first Asian American female or. I mean, truly, you put yourself in situations that. I don't know if I would have, like, I think if I would have looked around in this class and it was like, all a bunch of old white men, I would have been like, I can't like, do this. I gotta go. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Like, that's why it took 36 years. There you go. Oh, yeah. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Thank you for doing it. And I. I know that also thank you for sharing what you've learned. You. I know one of your books is called Open Hands, Willing Heart, and it kind of touches on this too. And so let's take it like one level deeper. What do you think it does to someone spiritually when they want to say yes to the Lord? Right. Like you did, but the church maybe says no because they're quote, unquote disqualified. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Ooh, that's a good question. Thank you. And sadly, I think that that happens more often than we think. So I would say to that woman, Interestingly, most women don't think that way. So that you're thinking that way is telling and is worth at least moving into. And that's where I would encourage a sister to take seriously some of that. That, that desire. I would say two things. One is God's timing is always perfect. Yeah. [00:31:14] Speaker B: Isn't that annoying? I know it's true. It's annoying to hear when you're waiting a hundred percent. [00:31:22] Speaker A: A hundred percent. And we all know on the flip side, you know, hindsight is 20 20. And we think, oh, Lord, thank you. We did not have the character or the internal structure to withstand whatever was going to come post the thing that we thought we really wanted. [00:31:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:41] Speaker A: 10 years earlier or whatever it is, you know. So I think it's beautiful to know that we can rest in God's timing and that our story is going to look different than anyone else's. I think of John 21, where Peter's asking Jesus, well, what about John? You know, and. And Jesus, like, you know, what about John? You follow me? So to that woman, there's a couple things to discern. If your environment is really toxic and unhealthy, then it's wise to not be in there. If it is one that you are still able to grow and glean and the Lord isn't saying leave. There could be some advantages of staying in this environment to learn some of the things that you would not learn otherwise. I'm learning to not poo poo everybody that disagrees with me or doesn't see things the same way. Like, how do we stay in the gray zones and maintain teachability and maintain a generous posture? That, to me, is important in these days. It's really easy to cancel and to sever relationships. And I don't think that that's the kingdom we are spending eternity in the new heavens and the new earth here on this planet and not in some, like, white space. What we think of as this, you know, I don't know, a Hillsong concert that goes for a million years. You know, it's like, that's not what heaven's going to be. Yeah. And we're going to be interfacing with people that will be surprised that they're there and they're going to be surprised that we're here. You know, I mean, it's just so learning to love, is it? It means that we're with people that are not like us. And I think for people that are married, we see that, like, we are different people, and that makes it really challenging. But we wouldn't want to be married to ourselves either. Like, sometimes I think shortcut, like, oh, yeah. I mean, we'll just get from point A to point B, and we'll just get there, and we'll get there quickly and efficiently. And my husband, I remember we had this big fight, and he's like, drew this. Drew this little diagram on a napkin. He goes, viv, this is point A and this is point B. And you go from point A to point B, straight line. I head over Here, and there's a monkey with some bananas. And then I'm over here, and there's this fun restaurant. But I get to point B, you know, And I'm like. And I'm crying, and I'm like, I know. And I liked meeting the monkeys, you know, so it's like, there's something beautiful about being together right in the process as well, that there's something very rich. Like one of my friends shared with me, and I quote her often, is like, efficiency is not a fruit of the spirit. Oh, that just stabs me right in the heart. I know, but now you're accountable to it, Kristen, Write it down, write it down, write it down. And so I. So going back to the original question, you know, when there's a woman who's feeling this. This burden, I would say absolutely. Seek the Lord on that. Evaluate. Is this toxic? Is this harmful? I don't think God wants us to remain in places that are toxic and harmful. If it's not a toxic, harmful place, there might be a purpose for being here in the season to learn some things from certain people, but continue to find places where your voice is welcomed, your experience is welcomed, where you're able to exercise your gifts, and it may just be not within the walls of this building or this church. And that's okay, too, for a season. So, again, yes. Yeah. And I think that's where, again, the hindsight that we receive is like, wow, Lord, there were certain people I needed to meet. There were certain lessons I needed to learn. And in your timing, this is. This helped shape me to be the person that I am today for sure. [00:36:07] Speaker B: I think too, I would say to that, you know, specific person. I think we know when we're looking for an answer versus, like, when God is actually telling us something. At least I know I did. When I got called to ministry, I used to teach kindergarten. I thought I was gonna do that for the rest life. [00:36:23] Speaker A: My of. [00:36:24] Speaker B: Of my life. When I was called to ministry, I was like, nope, not me. I'm not the. [00:36:28] Speaker A: I'm not the one. [00:36:31] Speaker B: And the people that I wanted to affirm that and say, yes, actually, I believe you can do this. Did not. Still don't often if I'm being honest. And. But I knew deep within me, as much as I wanted to use their opinion as like, a way to fight back against God and be like, see, I just. I can't. I'm this person. You know, I did know deep down within me that God was like, like, I am calling you. And you know, that I am calling you. And so as much as you love and trust and honor these people, no, like, their opinion does not matter more than mine. And so. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:37:14] Speaker B: I think you follow me. Yeah. With that conviction. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely. And that's where it's so good to have wise counsel. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:23] Speaker A: You know, people that can see it from different angles and ask us and push back and help us to wrestle sometimes, too. And the people that are going to believe in us and go, absolutely, this is who you are. This is whose God's made you to be. I'm cheering you on. We need the. We need people. Yeah. [00:37:43] Speaker B: And it is still special to me every single time. It doesn't matter if it's somebody that's, like, just started following me on Instagram, that sends me a message. And I've never, like, it doesn't matter. Every single time somebody affirms that, I'm like, oh, thank you, Lord. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Like, yes, yes, for sure. Yeah. [00:37:59] Speaker B: So keep encouraging your friends, guys. [00:38:01] Speaker A: That's good. Good. [00:38:04] Speaker B: Well, before we. I want. I have a couple more questions I want to ask you about, you know, women specifically. But I want to go back to something that you mentioned. You said there's a lot for us to learn in the gray areas. And so I want you to. I'm going to give you one that I had to learn and let you kind of think about what it is that you think that we need to learn there maybe that people are lacking these days. And I know for me, it was humility, a lesson that. [00:38:28] Speaker A: The H word. Right. [00:38:31] Speaker B: I remember being in a bit of a, we'll call it learning opportunity discussion with my boss. And I was like, I'm humble. And he was like, if you say it, if you have to say it, you're probably not like. Because, like, humble people don't have to say that they're humble because their humility just goes before them. And I was like, well, I don't have a response to this, actually. And that's something that I've had to learn over and over and over when it comes mostly to what I believe about other people, what I believe about God working in and through other people, what the Bible says, how clear the Bible is. I've just had to really sit in a lot of humility, and it has done wonders for my relationship with God and my knowledge truly of what the scriptures actually mean. But. But that was a. That was a gray area lesson for me that I now want everyone else to also learn. Join the humility wagon, please, guys. Come on. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Come on. It's great. Up here. Yeah. Or down here, I guess would be more accurate. Right. My. Probably one of the lessons for me in the gray areas is not deciding ahead of time who people are. That's good. Ooh, it's, it's so interesting there. We live in a time where we can do Instagram's scoping out or research and kind of come up with who we think a person is. And, you know, and that person may be very open or like, I think I know Taylor Swift, you know, like, you know, I've watched her documentary or whatever. Like, I think I know her, you know, and I know I do not know her, you know, And I. And then. And that's the, the, the dangerous side of a two dimensional relationship. It's kind of like when I finally meet you in person and hug you one day, Kristen, which I hope will be sooner than later. You'll see how tall I am and I will see how tall you are. And we just don't know that in a screen. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:45] Speaker A: And there's a lesson for me to not just determine who a person is based on a snapshot. Yeah. I can tend to be going back to the whole black and white, seeing things like right and wrong and all of that. I can tend to lean towards not liking someone or not respecting someone because of a snapshot without actually having a real conversation and knowing a person. And the last thing I want people to think of me is the same way, like, oh, she must be because of one thing that I said at one point. [00:41:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Without a conversation. So my. It still breaks my heart, the whole cancel culture. I understand that if there's been abuse and if there's been genuine harm done, you know. Yes. You cancel that kind of toxicity. There are some relationships that are not that, but we get so accustomed to. You disagree, then you're out. And there's not a space to explore together. That's what. So the thing with seminary that was really helpful, impactful for me was how do I learn? How do I go in to a research project and not bring in my own bias? Read widely. Like, left to myself, I would read this one and this one and I'm like, okay, this is what I think. Like seminary. Like, yeah. And this is who I like. I like their writing style and I really agree with them. So I'm gonna. But like having to find 15 to 12, 15 to 20 sources. Like, pushing myself to go, huh? Like, I don't need to lean always in the direction that I will tend to want to go. But it's healthy for me to see how others might view things. So that's one piece I think is missing that, that is a helpful personal life lesson that I need to take into relationships as well. Like, I don't know the whole story. And someone may be landing in a certain place theologically or politically or whatever for various reasons, but I can't determine their character and who they are just by a two dimensional or a snapshot. And that's missing today. You know, like back in the day when we all lived in the same little town. I could understand someone's character based on all of these different things and actual conversations and, you know, bumping into them at the store and. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:34] Speaker A: And then I can, you know, decide who they are. You know what I mean? That's no longer true. And it's a disadvantage for sure. And it's just helpful, I think. And it kind of, I feel like it marries into the humility piece too, of recognizing, you know, what I don't have the whole story. And my harshness, my harshness towards another is unwarranted if I really don't know the whole story. I have friends who have very short fuses right now. And it's. Crosses over to feelings of hate. Words like hatred, hate. And I'm like, wow, that, that doesn't, that doesn't fit what I believe Jesus lived and taught and what it looks like to be a follower of his. [00:44:39] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought that up too because I've been learning and realizing and I wrote about this in my book. Wow, I can't wait times, a lot of times when we do disagree with people. Right. I have in my own relationships, God has been showing me like there is a reason, including myself, there is a reason that I came to believe what I believed and there's a reason that I was very like, solid in that for a long time now. There are other reasons that I have since changed my mind on a lot of it. But I have to remember, kind of like you said about people's stories, like, we have to remember whether we know what it is or not. There is a reason that someone arrived at the very strong opinion that they have on whether it's politics or what the Bible says or whatever their theology. And I'm not saying that we excuse it and I'm not saying that we don't try to, when we have the opportunity, you know, shed some light on, yeah, maybe what's a little more true. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:40] Speaker B: But I think we have to have compassion for people and remembering there's a reason that they believe this so fiercely. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:49] Speaker B: And maybe if we knew what that was, maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would just help us to have that conversation and to talk to them a little bit differently, a little more lovingly knowing what the background was. [00:46:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That really. I think believers are called to be bridge builders that way. Yes. And we expect, sadly, we expect non believers to live like believers and, and become very judgmental based on that. Yeah. And we have some believers that are not taking in information, like unwilling to take in information. And that's alarming too. That begins to be in an area and it, you know, I. Time will tell how everything ends up. Right now it just is a dumpster fire. But when we one day sift through all of the ash, you know, I, I think we're going to be really, I think we're going to be really surprised at how much there were cult like qualities that were happening where there was literally like an inability to move out of the limbic system and move into the parrot. Like the, the part of our brain where we can reason. Yeah. There was just so much fear and like fight, flight, freeze, you know, that, that was the response instead of literally being able to reason and in and just go, oh, there's, there's more information here. And I'm, I was wrong. Yeah. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Well, I don't think all of us will be surprised to find that a lot of us can see it right now. But I do hope, and that is my hope that I'm always holding on to, is that like something will happen and God will speak to people and it is not our job to save them. We're the knowledge that we have and [00:47:48] Speaker A: we do the best we can to be a good witness and stay humble [00:47:53] Speaker B: in the middle of being so right all the time. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Oh my goodness. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you. I hear you. I hear you 100% well. [00:48:01] Speaker B: And there are a lot of listeners that are, whatever you want to call it, deconstructing, changing their mind, letting their faith evolve. Right. All of these things, which I don't see as a negative thing, but I wonder, especially for women, if you think that it's because they were raised to be agreeable. Like especially I'm thinking like girls in the church were raised to be agreeable but not to trust their own instincts, which really, then we find out later is Holy Spirit speaking to us. [00:48:29] Speaker A: Oh yeah, it's changed. [00:48:35] Speaker B: You think so? [00:48:36] Speaker A: Well, I think social media has opened up a place and this is Why? I think there's so much deconstruction too. Like, oh, there's actually more like I remember. So back in the 1900s, not 1800s, but the 1900s, in the era that I was raising young kids, kids, the word on the street was if I really loved my kids, I'd be a stay at home mom. Like, that was just like what the messaging on the street. It wasn't until we moved to, down to where we live now, where I was in a church with godly women who were career women with kids. It was like, you can, like, I just needed exposure. And so sometimes with these women who have this, they've just not been in an environment where they've been exposed to other women that are doing the things that they're like, oh, I, that's what I think I would like to do. So it opens it up because if we didn't have these avenues to see these amazing women, for example, that just graduated from seminary, they're like, I've always wanted to go to seminary. I could go to seminary as a mom. Yeah, it's possible. So there's, there's, there is something about the change, the shift because of being exposed to women that are like, okay, this is, I, I have chosen to take this route and there are limitations, there are going to be sacrifices. It's not easy peasy. It's not all. It won't fit in a one minute reel. Like there are hard things that are happening behind the scenes and my, my office is a mess right now. You know, it's not that cute. It's not that cute. So. But I think that that's some of it. I read a very startling. I was speaking at a mostly men's pastors conference recently and I read a very startling statistic from Gallup Poll where women between the ages of 19 and late 20s are the most, the deepest drop in church attendance or any like they don't want to go to church anymore. They're the ones that like young men are up and women are way, way down. And I just kind of threw this out there to all these women. It's maybe because I don't see anyone like them. And that could be some of the problem. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:02] Speaker A: You know, and yeah, when I think [00:51:04] Speaker B: like you said, you know, that there's change, I think it's a confidence shift too. So like my generation, also the 1900s, didn't see a lot of women. And again, I didn't want to be in ministry when I was a kid. So it's not like I was looking for that specifically, but also it was not there. Like, I didn't grow up with that example, but my daughters. I have two daughters. So they see their mom effectively running a church. You know, not on my own. Like, I'm part of a team, but I'm on the executive team. They know that, like, mom's at the top with these other people. [00:51:37] Speaker A: People. Yeah. [00:51:39] Speaker B: And so I just think that they're growing up with a different confidence level where, like, yes, they're not gonna question if they want to can I do this? Or whatever they want to do in life. Because to your point, there are more women, maybe not equally, but there are more women doing the things that only men used to do. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. And it's beautiful. [00:52:01] Speaker B: It is. [00:52:02] Speaker A: It's beautiful. It is. [00:52:04] Speaker B: What change have you noticed, whether in these specific women or women in general who start to begin to trust their own voice or trust, you know, the Lord speaking to them, [00:52:16] Speaker A: I see more contribution to the kingdom of God. They're able to bring their experiences, their. Their insights, their learning to benefit the greater community. Capital C Church. It's beautiful. It is absolutely beautiful. We were all meant to participate. I mean, I just was reading First Corinthians. I'm in First Corinthians for this little season, and camped out there and reading about the. The various gifts that the Spirit gives. Like, we're not. We didn't pick them, just like we didn't pick our parents, you know, or our birth order. We had no control over those things. So the Holy Spirit did, in fact, gift us differently, and we were all meant to be operating as a body, and we need one another. So to say that this part of the body is wrong or shouldn't be operating in the way it was created is limiting. It's not. So I. I love the how. We don't have to. We don't have to worry that things are going to run out. Like, does that make sense? I think we have a scarcity mentality sometimes. Like, okay, there's only one. One slot or one roll or one. And I'm. I'm thinking, we have a huge, gigantic world out here. And the more I travel and go from place to place, every time I look out of an airplane window, Kristen, I'm like. Like, we live in a huge country. I mean, we will not exhaust the places where we can love and serve people. And everywhere needs Jesus. Everywhere needs to experience the Lord. So that's where it's like for the woman who feels like I'm in the middle of Nowhere. I don't know what I could possibly be doing. No, you are. You know, it's an Act 1726 thing where God's determined the exact places where we should live. And so be all that God has made you to be in your place and space. And that is going to impact people beyond. So I. I just think don't hold back and have people that can also keep you grounded. Yeah, that would be my advice to both. It just don't hold back but also have people that'll help keep you grounded so that you stay humble and stay. It keeps coming back to that Christian, but it really is. And I would say that for those who do have gifts in the area that's more up front, that's even more important to maintain those people that keep us grounded. Because any kind of power, you can get drunk on power and whatever little we have can become our identity. We begin to. Or I'll just speak for myself. If I'm not careful and I'm not tending my own soul, I will start to look to my validation in areas that are just of the world, but it's just Christianized but it's worldly standards and that, you know, whether it's the applause of people or the platform size or whatever it is, we can very quickly lose sight of the most important thing. So we do need to have relationships in real life that keep us solidly grounded, that we know that we are loved and accepted and known apart from anything we do. I think that that gives us the freedom to operate in our gifting not out of a place of validation, but genuine serve service to the Lord from Him, through him and to him are all things. [00:56:18] Speaker B: And those relationships take work. I know there's always somebody that's like, well, I don't have those relationships or I don't trust people that way or I don't have those kind of deep relationships. And there are seasons of life where they are really hard to find. But also, man, they just take so much work. Like we do the effort into vulnerable and willing to be open and all the hard things. [00:56:39] Speaker A: All the hard things and like that. I mean it goes back to even like in marriage. Marriage is hard. Just be like, can't you just read my mind? Like, can't you just do it my way? And I just heard like a definition, one of our speakers that I now quote all the time. One of the speakers on the speaker team for we can remember said definition of selfishness is me wanting you to live your life my way. That's another one to write down. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Yes, it is. [00:57:12] Speaker A: So it takes work. So the most important relationships, our relationship with the Lord, our relationship with real life, people in real life, they require tending, they require intention, they require time. There's no substitute. And those are the ones that can actually go the distance with whatever else God calls us to do. Yeah. [00:57:38] Speaker B: Vivian, before I ask you the last question, I'm going to let you give one more plug for Denver Seminary and for this. Sure. Yeah. So I'm thinking, like, specifically the woman who's listening, who's interested, but she still feels intimidated and, like, Holy Spirit stirring something within her, but she's trying to ignore, like, what's the one more thing you want? [00:57:58] Speaker A: Oh, if there's a stirring, it's worth at least taking some steps toward. There you go. We don't know the timing of things, but some of it is just realizing, oh, there's even the option. So allowing that to be a way to move into something. I think there's not a specific timeline. It doesn't have to be right now, but it's still worth at least exploring and looking into. There's something that comes alive in us when we start to take hold of these desires and these dreams and these stirrings. So if I were sitting across, you know, from this woman, listening, you know, at a coffee shop, I would just say it's. It doesn't hurt to look at the application and answer the questions, because that may confirm things or it may really help go. You know what? I don't really know why I would want to be doing this, and so never mind. But that process is a really healthy process to go through anyway. Like, whether you end up doing the cohort or anything else, it's just like, it's getting in tune with, like, who am I? How do I steward who I am? I don't think seminary is only for people who are gifted in teaching. I think there are women who want rich, deep theological studies that will really, like, take their faith to a whole different place because of having scholars who have dedicated their whole lives to helping understand some of these things. It's just that formation that takes place in our souls because of the dedication to reading, stacks and stacks of books and researching and writing and processing. We don't get that anymore. And this is kind of one of those things. With AI, it's dangerous. It can be a great. It can be a great tool, but it can be dangerous if we aren't actually marinating in some of these things. Like, I. I think that that's what seminary was like, okay, how do I like all the things that are going. How do I know what sources to trust and where to look? And. And I think that seminary actually trains people to really learn the art of research and thinking. Like, we've, in some ways, because of things that get simplified, we don't have to think as hard in some ways. And I think that that's a skill that requires, like, I realized I forgot how to read deeply something that wasn't like a one minute Instagram thing. You know what I mean? Like, I had to retrain my brain. Our attention spans are so short. And like, to actually read a chapter in a theological textbook was like, oh, I am out of shape. It's like a plank. Like, it's a plank for my brain. And it's not that I can't get to that place, but it really requires some intention. So there are women that are hungry for that. And it's not just for the sake of teaching and being a women's ministry director or anything like that, but it's just for their soul. Like, they've always wanted to dig deep. And I would say, yes, explore that a little bit. Love the Lord your God, with all your heart, your soul, strength and mind. Like, this is how we can love God more, too. And I think women in particular, our voices are missing in so many of the conversations. But it's not only wonderful, it's needed in this time. We bring in the way our brains are. Our hemispheres are a lot more connected. And because of that, we engage in the scriptures differently as we engage in life differently. And so we need more scholars and we need more women doing the things. So just check it out is what I would say. [01:02:02] Speaker B: I'm glad that you made that point about. Seminary is not necessarily like the. The end goal is not always teaching ministry position, all of that, because really, it can be for anybody. [01:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:13] Speaker B: All right, Viv, last question for you. [01:02:16] Speaker A: Okay. [01:02:16] Speaker B: The question that I ask everybody to end our episodes is because the podcast is called Becoming Church. [01:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:22] Speaker B: How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [01:02:25] Speaker A: Them? You know, I love that question. And I'm understanding the becoming the church's capital C and the church. Okay. This is what I loved about seminary was learning that the temple of God, you know, where God was in our midst, began in the garden and then became the tabernacle where, you know, know God was, and then the temple, and then Jesus as Emmanuel, God with us, and then we now with the Holy Spirit dwells in us collectively. We're the Church. So everywhere we go, he is with us. And so how do we become the church, the people around us? Our presence is necessary. So man, let's get, get out and be. Because we just by our being, we spread the sweet aroma of the knowledge of him in every place. And that to me is so beautiful. So coming from a non Christian home, you know, I sat next to my friend in math class and she started glowing and I'm like, oh my gosh, did you become a vegetarian? She was like, she goes, no, I became a Christian. I'm like, what do you mean? Like that. That there's such. We are different because together the spirit of God dwells in us and the spirit of God dwells in us. And so there's something different about us. And so we need to be interfacing with people in order to continue to spread that sweet aroma of the knowledge of him. So I would just say get outside your doors and just be with the people. [01:04:12] Speaker B: People. [01:04:13] Speaker A: Yes, everywhere. And learn to ask questions and learn to be curious and learn to have a humble posture, to learn people's stories and be a part of the link of the chain that helps people in their spiritual journey to knowing Jesus. Yeah. [01:04:32] Speaker B: Amen. Amen. That was. That was perfect. Thank you so much. [01:04:37] Speaker A: So fun. [01:04:39] Speaker B: Listen, you are an absolute delight. I cannot wait to hug you in real life. [01:04:43] Speaker A: Hopefully sooner rather than later. I hope so too. [01:04:45] Speaker B: Thank you so much for being here. [01:04:47] Speaker A: Oh my goodness. This has been such a fun conversation. Kristen, thank you for inviting me. [01:04:55] Speaker B: Cheese. I wrote down so many things that Vivian said. We will not exhaust the places where we can take. The love of Jesus is sticking with me the most. And you just by listening to this podcast are part of that. You could take it one step further though, by leaving a five star review on Apple or Spotify. Even if you're listening somewhere else because of algorithms, your review is one of the main ways that you can help bump becoming church up in search results. And it's even better if you can leave a review. Like Holly Walker, who said, my favorite show is on the way. I will listen to this podcast on repeat. What I love most about the podcast is how it validates me and challenges me at the same time in the best of ways, both personally and communally. It has brought so much life to me after several tough years deconstructing and barely hanging on to my faith. You too can let other people know that you love this podcast just like Holly did in such a kind way by leaving us a five star review. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.