Dr. Natalie Atwell: Peace on Earth

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Merry Christmas and welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Muffler Young, and my guest today is Dr. Natalie Atwell. She will help us find peace on earth in a season where you might be seeing it in the holiday decor more than you're actually feeling it. If your happy holidays are hitting more, like, stressful situations, this conversation will remind you what true peace is about, where it comes from, and how you can find its presence. All right, Natalie, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. [00:00:52] Speaker A: So excited to have you. Now, listen, it is smack dab, like, in the middle of the Christmas season. So I need to know. I know you're going to give us tips and tricks for not being stressed out, but I need to know, like, realistically, where are you? Where are you? [00:01:04] Speaker B: Well, thanks. Just go straight into the vulnerable place. I love it. You know, I'm good, actually. It sounds so weird, but I actually just this morning was at the funeral of a pastor that I knew and loved in my area. And you know what it reminded me of, though? It reminded me of the comfort and joy that he brought everyone he met. And it's just a perfect example of what we should be doing in this season. Jesus came to bring comfort and joy to the world, to bring hope and peace. And I was just so thankful, even in that time, just to sit and. And be reminded of his life. And I think this is also a good time to be reflective during this season. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:50] Speaker B: So I'm thankful for that opportunity this morning to. So I'm good at the moment. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Good, good. Honestly, I'm glad you said that because it would have been a really awkward episode or conversation for me to be like, how are you? And you're super stressed out. But then we're supposed to learn from you on how to find peace. So. Good. We're starting in a good place here. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I also think Mary had to have been the most stressed out woman in the world. [00:02:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:02:19] Speaker B: I can't even imagine rotting a donkey that many miles. So uncomfortable. You know, just what this season represents, we forget. We think it's this beautiful, perfect little portrait we see in people's homes or us, you know, at nativity scene or whatever. But it was. He was birthed out of difficulty and pain. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Totally. [00:02:40] Speaker B: Cultural struggles, political struggles, all the things that people might even be feeling this year. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Well, and even, like, you know, that not everybody believed the way that she got pregnant and what was happening, like the family would have been talking about her, other people would have been talking about her and Joseph, you know. Yeah. And also I also think we picture them just like trotting along on the donkey. Like they just leave and they get there. Like they would have had to stop. And there was, there was no putting in your AirPods to like just get a moment of peace from the people you're traveling with or, you know. [00:03:17] Speaker B: True. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, before we get into the practical tips and tricks and all the things that you are going to give us, I have to bring up. You have a book called I can Do Anything in the Right Pair of Shoes, Walking in Peace in a Turbulent World. So I have to know. Only a shoe girly would choose a title like that. So what is your favorite shoe that you have? [00:03:43] Speaker B: Probably heels. They make me feel powerful. You know, it's just something about putting on a pair of heels. It's like I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna take charge of whatever situation I'm in. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Yes, I'm with you. I'm with you. I am a high heel girl. Whenever I go to church in my like sneakers or people see me, you know, out and about, they're like, wow, you're so short. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Same same. They almost don't even know that I'm this short person. I'm like five three. [00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm only five five. So I'm just a tiny bit above you. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I love all shoes, honestly. And it just depends on the day. I mean, today it would be a rainbow day, unfortunately. [00:04:25] Speaker A: I will say though, my rain boots have like fur around the top edge. So we gotta give a little something. I love it to everything. [00:04:31] Speaker B: It's fantastic. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Well, how did the title really come about and how has it formed your faith? Because I know that it's not just about shoes. And I don't want, you know, the, the lesser girly or feminine people listening to you, like, oh, this is not for me. So unpack that. For real? [00:04:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. Because it really isn't just a book about shoes or girly things or even about girls. It's actually a very vulnerable book for me because as a therapist, I sit and listen to people's stories every single day. And I believe stories are sacred. But this was a chance where God really gave me a release to share parts of my story. And even the aspect of shoes for me is. Was an area of struggle and still can be because I was born with a birth defect. In my feet. So really the love of shoes was beauty from ashes. It was birthed out of struggle. And I think only a good God can use your pain for something good that in his redemptive plan. So really that is the book in a nutshell. Is. Is how my own turbulence story, from the moment I was born of struggling with physical disability, how God has really used that in my life and taught me in the last couple years of writing this to be honest about what it really means to put on peace as a shoe. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker B: It's a very intentional act. [00:06:00] Speaker A: And you use in the. In your book, I know every chapter you had like a different shoe for a different analogy. Do you want to give us an example of maybe your favorite one or just whatever one comes to mind right now? [00:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah, probably my favorite title of a chapter was the Cinderella Squeeze. And it was about how comparison, you know, the good and bad of comparison. Comparison gets a bad name. But I talked in that chapter also about how are some good ways we can compare ourselves to others. Because you're going to do it whether you want to or not. Especially in a social media crave crazed world. But I think there are actually healthy ways to do it. Not in a way of hey, I should be that person or I should have what that person has, but in a way of kind of how the gospel teaches to spur one another on to good works, to sharpen one another in. In those ways we can actually use it for something good. [00:06:53] Speaker A: What would that look like, to use comparison in a healthy way? [00:06:59] Speaker B: I think it would look like, you know what, I'm struggling as a mother to do something and I see this other mother and she has more seemingly struggles than I do. So I'm encouraged to get over myself in my circumstances today and pick up my big girl shoes, put them on and walk this out. I can do this. If she can do it, I can do it. I think that's a healthy way to compare. Not I should be her. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:07:28] Speaker B: You know. [00:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah. It feels like a perspective shift of how can we look at this differently? You know, Or I also heard you say like basically you're looking outside instead of inside. That always seems to be something that helps me with comparison is to do something, you know, when I'm feeling self pity or my life is not good enough or what, I'm not good enough or whatever it is. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:50] Speaker A: To look outside myself, do something for somebody else and then. [00:07:53] Speaker B: Right. The enemy really seeks to make comparison become envy, become jealousy. Yeah. And I think we can stop it from becoming those things. If we do it in a good way. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's good. Anything that divides, right, is of the enemy. Well, the subtitle of your book is Walking in Peace in a Turbulent World. And so let's talk, since we're in the Christmas season. What's so special about peace? You know, we hear a lot about the word peace, but what does it mean to you? What's so special about it right now? [00:08:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I love the world, the word peace, especially in this season, because so many people talk about the different words of, you know, wonderful, wonderful counselor, mighty God. But I think my favorite has got to be Prince of peace. And I think so, because if Jesus had not come, we would not be able to have peace with God Almighty. We wouldn't have the wonderful counselor. We would not have the relationship with a mighty God. So really, Jesus birthed him. Having to come is what allowed for us to have peace with an almighty Father who was in turn one day going to provide a way for us to be right with the Almighty God and to have faith and hope that one day all things will be made new. And that's where I think you can really walk out peace. So that. That's what it means to me. It's. It's giving us the chance to celebrate the birth of Christ, but also celebrate our own birth. Our own. I love the phrase, and I don't hear it as often as I used to growing up, but born again. We are born again as believers in Jesus, into God's family through Jesus. So it's not just Jesus birth that we're celebrating. Yes, we are celebrating his birth, but we're celebrating the opportunity that we all get to be born again in the season. [00:09:47] Speaker A: What do you think is you mentioned, you know, that Jesus gives us the peace with God, but we also need to find peace, you know, within ourselves and peace with each other. Do you think there's one of those that is, like, more difficult than another? [00:10:04] Speaker B: I think that's probably seasonal. It depends on the person. It depends on where you're at. But I think once you find peace with God, like, and that is through Jesus relationship with him, then you can let the Holy Spirit deal with you and work on the inner peace of. And that sounds very, you know, spirituality, not. Not good things, but really the piece of just accepting that he made you a human in the image of God and you get to be his representative on earth. And he made you in a unique. In a wonderful way. And you're not supposed to be like anyone else. And even if you had struggles, even if you've had pains, if you were born in unfavorable circumstances, that God can use those things for good and that he's going to make it new one day, then you can also have peace with others. Right. [00:10:55] Speaker A: I think Jesus's birth reminds us too of like his complex combination of being both fully God and both fully man. I know that it helps me remember that, no, while we're not Jesus, we. We were made in his image. And so we also still have that same complexity of we are also human and spirit. You know, like you said, if we have the Holy Spirit in us, then we are also this weird, like, combination of both. And so it helps me to remember we have to recognize our own humanity and then allow the Holy Spirit to come in. Because I'm going to tell you what, Kristen, on her own, in her own humanity, is not going to find peace or bring peace. [00:11:36] Speaker B: No. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Or any of that. Especially in a hectic season. [00:11:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. It doesn't feel natural. We almost are drawn to more chaos. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, well, let's get really practical because you are a therapist. Is that your actual title? [00:11:52] Speaker B: Licensed clinical mental health counselor. But it's along all the letters, so yes. Okay. [00:11:58] Speaker A: But basically what that says to me is all of those letters let us know that we can trust you and the things to say and, and you've got the background and the education and the wisdom to help us. So I want to think about some actual situations and things that people might be in right now in the season. I think the first one, Natalie, is just like balancing the stress of managing all the things because we've got, you know, gift buying and wrapping and probably kid, you know, performances and last minute shows. And then, oh, I forgot to buy a gift for this person. And then church wants you to come do a thing and then they want you to, like, there's just so much extra. How do we manage all of those things? [00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't always do it well, you know, and sometimes I think balance is not this perfect formula that you achieve. I think it's just like, you know, those old balancing scales. At some point, it's always an act of trying to figure out what do I need to take off this plate or what do I need to take off this plate to kind of maintain that balance. I like a visual picture to remind me of that. And so sometimes that means, you know, what, this week I'm not feeling well, so I need to say no to some things or these gifts can wait or I need to ask for help or my gift giving is going to look a little bit like gift cards in this moment, because I just don't have the mental capacity to put any more, you know, action to that. Obviously, it's balancing. The biggest thing is your time. We all have the same amount of time, and I know that's something that we hear all the time. But I will say, for me personally, I have to spend time with the Lord every single day. And that is time to steal away, to quiet my mind, to read his word. So he is pouring his wisdom into me so it can come out to others, so I can pray, so he can convict me of what I need to do differently and then lean into that. So I'm reminded in that frustrating moment of the season or that unbalanced moment to reassess and let you know, the fruit of the spirit come out and present itself versus the fruit of myself in my own selfish ways. So really, that is the biggest thing for me. And then just over time, I've had to just assess and say, I can't do all the things, and that has to be okay, and focus on what I want the season to be about. And that is the Lord. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah. It doesn't always feel like it's okay. I know. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it definitely doesn't. [00:14:34] Speaker A: This year, we. We didn't do Christmas cards for the first year. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker A: I guess since my kids were born. And so, like, over a decade. And it's fine. And I know it's fine, but for a variety of reasons. You know, one of my daughters got sick the day that we were supposed to take photos. And I keep telling her, I'm like, it's not your fault that we didn't send a card out. We have a thousand family photos that I could have chosen, but there were so many extra things this year that I was like, I just don't have the time to order them and then to address them all and all of the things. And every time I look at our. I hang mine up in our kitchen. Every time I look at it, I, like, get sad because I'm like, oh, like, I wish we had done it. But I just have to give myself grace, like you said, to know, hey, this year it just didn't happen. It was going to stress me out more than anything else. And so I would have liked to. And hopefully we'll do it again next year. But, yeah, I was just one of those things that I could cut and fit in. [00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah, you can always do a New Year's card. I have A friend who does that. I think it's fantastic. But, yeah, that's not to put anything else on your plate, but I think you have to look at your heart motive. And like, my heart's motive wasn't to not do this out of the wrong reasons. [00:15:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:46] Speaker B: And I think it's a good way to look at others, too, when they say no to you. [00:15:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Is what was their heart's motive? [00:15:53] Speaker A: Right. Right. Yeah. Surely there was a good reason that we may or may not understand, but also we can. What I heard you say, too, was like, just to reframe and do things a different way. Like, maybe instead of a Christmas card, we do a New Year's card. Or. I know for me, there have been crazy mornings where I'm like, guess what? I didn't sit down and read my Bible. But it's. What I did do was I listened to other people's Christmas sermons in the car between appointments or I popped my AirPods in and I listened to it while I was traveling and doing things. And is that ideal? Probably not. But is it going to work in this season? Is it better than nothing? Yeah, I think it probably is. And it's okay to adjust how things look in overly hectic situations, too. [00:16:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the key, too, and I did talk about this in my book, is we have to lean into the discomfort of saying no the first time, especially, or lean into the discomfort of whatever it is you're having to let go so that you can have more balance and focus on what matters more. And. And even I had a friend recently convict me about this. Is. Is sitting in your quiet time, having that time with the Lord. Don't have a checklist for what it should look like. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Sometimes it could be listening to a sermon and letting the Holy Spirit speak through that. [00:17:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what about when? So someone is trying to manage their time and they're figuring it out, but the overstimulation still can be, like, a lot, even for adults. Like, are we allowed to just run away? Like, what. [00:17:28] Speaker B: How do we. [00:17:28] Speaker A: How do we cope? [00:17:30] Speaker B: So funny. I have a really close friend and we always, when we're having a stressful moment, we usually text each other, I'm ready to run away. When is the flight? And for some reason, we pick Hawaii. Why not Hawaii? So we always say, when's the flight leaving for Hawaii? And just that comment that as long as I can get that out to her, it usually feels great. And I think she feels the same way. So I say that to say, no, you Can't. Maybe you need to. Sometimes you do need to plan in some time for rest for sure and all those things. But, yeah, it is very overstimulating. I mean, you can't go to a store right now and there's like, oh, in your face. It's too much, and we're just not made for it. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker B: So it is hard. And I would say, you know, go into activities that, you know are going to be more stressful with an open mind and prepare for those moments as much as you can. [00:18:26] Speaker A: What does preparation look like? What would that look like? [00:18:29] Speaker B: So I'll just give a very personal example, if that's okay, because I'm just real. I don't really know any other way, but I. And I feel like the Lord gave me this idea. So several years ago, we had, you know, the family Christmas dinner, and I have two sisters, and one of my sisters was bringing a new boyfriend that we were not real excited about. [00:18:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:47] Speaker B: And she. She can laugh about this now, so it's okay to say. But he had. He had a bow tie tattoo to his neck. And no offense to anyone, like, I have tattoos. I'm not judging anyone who does, but that just says something, you know, Sir. And so I was like, this is going to be awkward. What are we going to do? You know, I don't want my husband looking at him like, really? What. What's happening here? [00:19:09] Speaker A: You know? [00:19:10] Speaker B: And so one of the things that I did was I was like, lord, you're going to have to prepare our hearts and minds. And it's like this idea popped into my mind to play games. So we started, for the first time ever that Christmas, playing games. So we played games and had fun, and we didn't have awkward conversations. We. We didn't just stare and look at each other. It just was a great way to interact without the. The awkwardness. It just sort of cut that. You know what I mean? So that's one way you can do it. Another way you can do it, to be honest, because so many people talk to me about this all the time is like, I don't want to go see such and such, or she's going to get on my nerves. And you know what I'll say? Prepare for that person to get on your nerves. Then prepare your response before you go into it. Because I think a lot of times we get let down. We're like, oh, it's going to be this great family dinner, and we forget this person's gonna annoy you. [00:19:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:59] Speaker B: But if you go into it like, okay, I know she's gonna annoy me. I'm just gonna always already be preparing my mind for that, and I'm gonna try to respond with the love of Jesus and not an argument or an eye roll or whatever. And it actually does help. [00:20:17] Speaker A: It does. It does. I think, too, remembering. I mean, we were talking about, you know, recognizing our own humanity. I think that works with other people as well. That's something that I struggle with. Even the people that I expect to annoy me or get under my skin. Sometimes when they do. Sometimes when they do, it only confirms my own biases and my own judgmental, like, thoughts that I'm like, oh, yeah, this person is, you know, fill in the blank. But when I can remember their humanity and remember the things that they're probably struggling with, dealing with, I am just not aware of. Yeah, that's when it helps me to remember. Okay. Like, maybe there's a reason why this person always responds this way or always feels the need to push certain buttons. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Or, you know, for sure there's reasons why people are the way they are. [00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:15] Speaker B: That's all of us. And you're right, it is a lot of times indicative of our own, you know, judgmental things or feelings or interactions. And. And, you know, here's the reality, too. Sometimes people put annoying people in your life to sharpen you, and you might be that person, too. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Oh, I'm for sure the annoying person in a lot of people. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Me too. Absolutely. I say I'm an acquired taste, you know. [00:21:40] Speaker A: Well, there are people listening that I know are about to walk into a Christmas dinner or, you know, gathering with people that they typically try to avoid. So we just touched on it a little bit, but is there anything else that you would want to speak into them? Just kind of encouragement on, like, how to have these interactions? [00:22:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I will say, you know, again, before you go into that interaction, take your thoughts, your beliefs, your whatever, take them to the Lord as much as you can to prepare beforehand, you know, and I think that's biblical God. I mean, Mary had to prepare. She had to do certain things. Now, did it. Did it work out when they got to Bethlehem the way they wanted it to? It did not. You know, I'm sure that is not how they prepare it to be, but, you know, let God work on your heart and prepare. But I'll say also ask God to show you, what do you want me to learn in this moment? What are you trying to show me in this moment? And also look for human humor in those moments. For me, it's. It's almost like in those awkward times that when I'm with people that I'm not as comfortable with or it's just awkward, the Lord will give me a funny moment or just a funny thing. And it's almost like he's whispering to me, I see you. I'm here with you. I love you. You know what I mean? Humor is that for me? [00:23:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And humor can be, like, a great equalizer, too. Like you mentioned playing games. That, to me, is an equalizer. Same thing, right? Like, if everybody can kind of throw off, like you said, their. Their judgments or their beliefs, we almost have to distract ourselves with, like, a common distraction, you know, this thing that's either fun or an activity or humor. And I think that does help us to then go, oh, okay. Like, we can. We can focus around. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Something different, something easier. [00:23:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I promise you, if you ask him to do that, like, you know, God, this is going to be a difficult family. This is going to be a difficult party or whatever, a difficult interaction. If you just say, God, just show me. Show me where you're at in this. Just help me to fill you in this moment. He will answer that prayer. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I think that that prayer for me isn't even so much about an invitation to God coming in, which it is, but it's also a reminder for me then to, like, have my eyes open to see where he is already present, you know, so. [00:24:10] Speaker B: Good. Amen. [00:24:11] Speaker A: Sets our posture up. Yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:14] Speaker A: Well, you mentioned in your book, too, that, like, a lot of times we have conflict or turmoil with other people. It's actually connected to wounds from our own past. Can you speak to that a little bit? [00:24:25] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. We, you know, the word trigger get. Has. Has really gotten a lot popular over the last several years for lots of different reasons. I'm triggered or whatever. [00:24:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:35] Speaker B: And it. But it is true. But I would say a lot of times when a specific reaction or certain thing happens with a person or with a situation, and. And the reality is with families, a lot of our hurts come from the people who love who we love the most or who have been around us. But I would say so does our healing. But a lot of it does come from those wounds from the past, and that's why it's so much to walk in peace. There is going to come a point in your life where you have to deal with the past wounds. You have to deal with those things. And I can't, you know, tell each specific person how to do that, but I can say that God will show you, you know, whether it's through therapy or whether it's through, you know, having a mentor, someone you know, that will love you at church or within your community, there will be ways that God can show you and walk alongside you to heal that. And he wants to, to. Oftentimes the enemy says, keep it pushed down, don't talk about it. It's not there. But what God reveals, he will heal. You just have to allow it to come up. [00:25:42] Speaker A: And again, I think sometimes when we're talking about it, it doesn't have to be with the person who is wounding us. Sometimes we have to talk about it with someone else because it's not always an option. I know. For me, I realized that I was like projecting hurts onto other people. And so I had these wounds from being rejected or feeling unloved in my past. So then the second that somebody else, you know, gave me, like, even the tiniest inkling that they were rejecting me, even if they weren't, it was like I was projecting all of my hurt and anger from these other people onto them. And that's just division, you know, like you said, that's. That's the enemy trying to come in and break those relationships. But I do think there are, there are ties that we have to work on. Therapy worked for me, I will say too, where, you know, I mean, there's the traditional trope, right, of like the daughter and the mother in law. But I think a lot of those issues maybe can come from your own mother or they can come from, you know, a different person without realizing it. And if we don't take the time to unpack what those wounds really are, where they come from, then we might actually be the ones doing damage to a relationship, thinking it's the other person's fault. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. And sometimes we unknowingly trigger things in other people. And if you see a weird reaction and you're like, I didn't mean anything by that, I think you also have to be aware that, like, that has nothing to do with you. It could be completely something on them. Even if they want it, they're projecting their anger or whatever it is towards you, their sarcasm or, you know, it. It has nothing to do with you either. And that's where you have to really trust the Lord in that moment and see it for what it is. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard to let it go. This is what I'm always trying to tell my daughters. I'm like, you have to let it go. You have to not let that stick to you, like that person's opinion doesn't matter or what. But it. It's so much harder to do than it is just to talk about it. [00:27:43] Speaker B: It takes work. It really does. And it. It takes. Yeah. A lot of you reframing and re. Understanding again who the beauty of who God made you so that the enemy's wise and the others, whatever false beliefs don't stick to, you constantly have to be going back and centering yourself to the truth. [00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, specifically, Natalie, let's talk about politics for just a second. We're not that far removed from the election. We have not yet had a handover of power. We're in this weird middle ground. Right. Of like, things are about to change, but they haven't yet. And so I know for a lot of people, people that I've talked to, people that listen, they're like, I'm just gonna not talk about politics, which I think can be a really wise choice, depending on who you're going into. But there is often that one aunt or that one uncle or that one relative who just wants to work hard political digs into, like, every topic of conversation. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:47] Speaker A: How do. What do we do when that happens? [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. I always would say talk about your family, talk about the goodness of your year, all those things, you know, try to not talk about politics like we talked about it enough, you know, you probably don't want to wear your MAGA hat, like, if that's a family dinner, you know, unless you're all on that side or whatever, you know, or whatever. But, yeah, I would say try to redirect the conversation or, like, if the person just has to get it out, prepare yourself to just hear them listen and then try to change the subject. Just move on. Don't. Here's what I'll say. Don't do. And I don't like to always say don't do this, but don't engage, don't try to argue, because, okay, that is going to make it worse. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Unless you're, like, really prepared to dig all the way in on that conversation, but thinking, yeah, if it's something that feels like it's going to trigger you or bring you more stress or anxiety. [00:29:50] Speaker B: Then, you know, I'd say argue if there's a point to it. If there. If there's a point to this conversation and, like, there's going to be a resolve, you know, almost like, again, attorneys have to argue cases because they're trying to do something good for whatever their client is. Right. But if you're going to argue just for the sake of arguing and there's not going to be a resolve like, you know, you're not going to change that person's mind, that person knows they're not going to change your mind, then the argument that the conversation is really just pointless. [00:30:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:19] Speaker B: So let's talk about something else. [00:30:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think changing the, the topic when it works. And listen, I know there's, there are those people that are just persistent and so you just, you either keep trying or I would venture there's probably other people. And so that's when you just excuse yourself to get up and like refill your cup or go get a snack or use the bathroom or whatever and. [00:30:41] Speaker B: Then go outside and take a deep breath. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can change the subject. You can ask them questions. You know, people do like for you to engage with them of other topics. Say, hey, well, hey, I'm glad we got to talk about politics. But like what's the best part of your year? Yeah, you know, like what you do this summer or you know, ask them personal questions like that, like what's God showing you this year? What are you thankful for? What you learn? Yeah, ask. [00:31:10] Speaker A: Well, you mention preparation maybe, maybe we go in like with set questions in mind. [00:31:16] Speaker B: And that's the part about planning is it's important to plan those types of things. [00:31:22] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, no, that's good. I like it. And you did mention too. Was there any other tips that you have? I know you have a whole chapter on the high heel conflict. Any other tips that you think would be especially appropriate or helpful during the holidays? [00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think pick, you know, be wise in your words and your interactions. You know, if you do have something to resolve with the family member. I'm not someone who believes in avoiding conflict. Conflict. I think conflict are something that you need to handle. I don't know that a family Christmas gathering is the place for that. [00:31:54] Speaker A: Probably not. [00:31:55] Speaker B: Probably not. So if, if there's things that you feel like you need to have a conversation with about before, then do that or table it for Christmas dinner and say, hey, let's talk about this later. So I definitely think it, you need to address the conflicts but also, you know, handle it in the right ways. The ways that God would be honored, that he would be, you know, glorified. You know, again, putting your selfish desires aside of what am I trying to achieve out of this conflict? And asking God, like, God, what are you trying to show me in this situation. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:28] Speaker B: And help me to be sharpened in this moment. [00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Well, and I think always having a backup plan, too, you know, part of planning. I know I'm lucky that on both sides of our family, we've got kids. There's children on my side and my husband's side. And so maybe I'm telling on myself here now to my. To my family. But if I ever get stressed out or overwhelmed or I feel my own wounds kicking up and kicking back in, I just get on the floor with the kids. The kids. [00:32:57] Speaker B: Perfect. Yeah. [00:32:59] Speaker A: I just play with the kids and I take a break and I'm like, I know that they're going to be just chill and happy that I'm playing with them. And. Yeah, maybe it's a good exit strategy. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I'll pick on my spouse. He may or not like this, but I have to almost prepare. We have to prepare each other for, like, the opposite side of the family, you know, things like, I know he loves, you know, my family, but I know there are certain things about certain people in my family that annoy him. So on the way there, I'll be like, don't forget, this is going to annoy you. This is going to happen. So don't go in expecting it not to. And then get irritated and be irritated, irritable, you know, and the same thing for him, you know, he's like, you know, this is going to happen. So just put. Keep that in the back of your mind. Try to have a good response. And it actually does help us when we can have those conversations beforehand. [00:33:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's wise. I think that's why it's just a reminder of let's remember who again, the humanity of the people that we're going to interact with. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:01] Speaker A: Well, Natalie, since the podcast is called Becoming Church, last question for you. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker A: How can creating peace, you know, around us help us to become the church now and in the new year? [00:34:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I love it's called becoming church because church is God's family. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:20] Speaker B: He sets the lonely in families, and I think it's through the church. But with that in mind, I will say, as someone who's been in church my entire life, it is hard sometimes. So I do think there's something to that. But I love that it's becoming church because we do have to be the church in the world and shine light in dark places. And that's what Chris Christmas is all about, is really shining light to the dark world. But I will say we. We really need to put on peace daily by dealing with our past, you know, as much as you possibly can. I know it's a hurried season, but you know, this is something you can do over time to choose to walk in it in your present circumstances every single day and then prepare to put it on in the future. And there are ways you can do that. But ultimately it is following Jesus example. And that is the beauty about our God. The one God above all is one who came and was in the flesh. He has felt every emotion we've ever felt. He can understand us like no other, any other God that people would want to worship out there. He is the one true above all and he forgave. So we should do that even if we don't want to. He loved, he gave, he wasn't self motivated, you know, he. He died so that one day all things could be made new. And that there is. You know, we laugh when we talk about silly things that happen at family events, but the reality is many people are going into a lion's den and they're the people who have abused them and hurt them, they are still in sadly relationship with. And it's hard to have peace in those moment moments of tur turbulence really. But that's when we can have the hope of what the Savior actually came to do. And that was to make all things new one day. It won't be today. It might be today if he comes back. But we have that hope and that assurance that he is with us. He is God, Emmanuel, God with us. And that one day it will. It won't be this way forever. And that gives me hope. [00:36:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for that. For that reminder. We will link up your social media and the book and all of the places that people can find you in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. I hope you have a fantastic Christmas. [00:36:49] Speaker B: Absolutely. I do too. And I hope you don't have to get in the floor too much. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Like Natalie said, God puts us in families. And I truly believe that's one of the biggest benefits to being part of a church community. If you're looking for people to love you like families should, we would love to bring you in and include you at Mosaic. If you're local. We're hosting Christmas Eve at 4 and 6pm with a candlelight service and we'll still be here January if that's an easier time to start rethinking about church. It can take time and effort to find the right fit, but you'll only ever find your people if you're willing to courageously invest in looking for them. If there's anything I can do to help you find a church in your area, please reach out to me on Instagram @KristenMothler Young or send us a message @becomingchurch TV. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.