Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Erica Anderson. She's here to talk to us about addictions and compulsions, especially when it comes to alcohol. While we don't get deep into the weeds on any of it, I do want to let you know that there is mention in this episode of eating disorders, assault, and some other traumatic things that tend to be connected to drinking. So please take care of yourself as you listen to this conversation with Erica Anderson.
Erica, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me on. Yes.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: I'm so excited to have you. This is one of those. I'm going to be honest with everybody. There are a lot of guests that come to this show that I like approach and go after. And then I get a lot of emails from people pitching, hey, I think this person has a great idea or a great book or whatever. And so that's how I found you. I actually was not familiar with you until Krista, who I love at ivp, sent me you and your book. And I was like, you know what?
This is a very interesting concept and topic that we have not covered on Becoming Church. So I'm really excited to have you here to talk about your book freely, sober and alcohol and all the things.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's. People always have opinions. It's. It's a conversation starter, for sure.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and I think too, like, as I was thinking about it, I'm like, there are people listening that drink alcohol and enjoy it. There are people listening that have stopped drinking alcohol and would consider themselves alcoholics.
There are probably people listening who are going to relate to your story. And so I was like, you know what? And if not, then they've got family and friends who for sure can.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, we all have family and friends.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: That struggle.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sure. Or secretly struggle or don't know that they're struggling. So we'll get into it. Before we do all that, give us a little bit of info, just like on your faith background and kind of how it's shifted over the years.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I grew up pretty well, actually. My very first church was a. Was an Assemblies of God church. So I would go with my grandma in the church van. So. So I have actually really great memories of that. And my. My second book was actually about church called Reason to Return why Women need the Church and the Church Needs Women. So great affinity for the church. But mostly I grew up non denominational evangelical and went to a variety of churches over the years. Currently go to a Wesleyan Church that is about 200 people. Really love the small vibe there. Really think there's something special about a small church. And having been a part of all different sizes, this has been my favorite. And we've now been here for about nine years, so we're not going anywhere.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: That's awesome. And you are in Indiana, are you? Have you been a Midwest girl your whole life?
[00:02:58] Speaker A: Pretty much. So I grew up here. I did live in Washington, D.C. for almost 10 years, sort of in the middle. And then when I got married and had kids, we moved back towards family.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Okay. I'm asking because as a Midwestern. Midwesterner myself growing up, I can usually pick out the accents and I don't hear one with you.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of boring. I mean, I wish I had an accent because I think that gives you so much, like, sparkle, but unfortunately not too much.
[00:03:25] Speaker B: You have plenty of sparkle. Plenty of sparkle. I just expected you out. I was like, does she sound like my cousins? She doesn't, actually.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: I. Well, some people I know really do have like a bit of a twang and I just didn't get it.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Well, I want to talk about. I mentioned your book Freely Sober. So before we really like dive into the pages, give people a history, I guess, of what part alcohol has played in your life.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Sort of the brief history is like many people, I started drinking as a teenager, sort of as, you know, this rebellious phase that we all go through, just experimenting. Not a big deal, of course, never thinking of what does that mean the first time you take a drink and what could it mean for your future?
But even from the very beginning, I kind of felt like, number one, guilt for getting drunk. As a Christian, my faith has always been a part of my life. So there was guilt. But it was also like, I don't like the way this kind of makes me feel like I'm. I almost like don't have a choice, like when it's presented to me.
And so it wasn't that frequent or that often back then. But even then I thought, I said to myself, and maybe others will relate to this, okay, well, I have to go to a Christian college because then I will just get really serious about my faith and I will not drink or party.
I thought that was going to solve the problem, which apparently I found out later that Christian colleges. That doesn't even. That's not the case.
That's what I've heard from others. I didn't go to a Christian college. I just went to Indiana University in my hometown, actually, and was just kind of a typical college student. I mean, I was involved in campus Crusade for Christ and stuff. But then I was also like going to part. I had like a double life almost. I felt like.
And then do you feel like you.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Had to hide it? Like, did your campus crusade friends know that you were drinking or were you drinking with your campus crusade?
[00:05:08] Speaker A: No, no, my. My campus crusade friends did not drink. I actually lived in a house of nine girls and there was like, pretty much no alcohol there. There was no alcohol and there was no boys.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: So you really felt like you were living too different.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah, because I would go out and then I didn't really hang out with them outside of the house. You know, that's kind of how it went in college. The whole time me thinking, you know, kind of feeling guilty, kind of compartmentalizing, I would say. That's a great term for. It is. I would be like, well, yeah, it's like, I shouldn't do this. But, you know, I'm young. You're only young once, you know, you feel very immortal when you're 20, 21 years old.
And so move on to young adulthood. Move. End up moving to Washington, D.C. where I started my career. And D.C. is a very, very alcoholic town, if you didn't know. Yeah, very alcoholic. Lots of, you know, and as an intern, where I started, I mean, everything is about drinking. I mean, people are still drinking martinis for lunch in that city.
You don't see that too often anymore.
And so it kind of, you know, my drinking increased. But yet here I was, a successful young woman, like, making my way. I had a good job and everything.
And so it kind of just went on like that where I would have some instances where, you know, I would have blackouts or things that were embarrassing, but I would sort of just chalk it up to like, oh, this is just what being in your 20s is about. But still never feeling, you know, never feeling comfortable with it. So fast forward to getting married, having kids and drinking sort of transitioned into more of an at home thing. Right. And it became so much less about, like, oh, we're going out and having fun and doing things too. Like, I'm drinking wine every night, I'm just craving this. And it was for different reasons, but it almost felt like more destructive reasons. And in a way that was really getting to my heart and soul about why I was making these choices. And, you know, the longer time went on, the more I started to feel like I need to give this up someday. And I don't know how I'm going to do that. I really felt, God, tell me, like, you will stop drinking one day. And I was like, I can't imagine what that would be like. And so that was what got me to eventually pursuing some of the things that I did.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's interesting. And I want to make sure we circle back to that too, because I know. And you even say in the book, like, you didn't write this so that every single person reading it, you're not telling everyone, like, okay, you all need to stop drinking too. Like, you're not trying to make this a prescriptive thing. But it is interesting that you felt like God did say to you, hey, for you, Erica, this will be a thing that you need to give up. In that moment, were you able to, like, recognize it and be like, oh, I'm using this as a crutch, or was it kind of confusing?
[00:07:42] Speaker A: No, I knew I was using it. I knew I was using it as I shouldn't because I just. I didn't feel normal. I was like, normal people are not thinking about drinking. Normal people are not, you know, having. Sometimes having blackouts, which not everybody has. Like, it's a really a biological thing if. Or if you don't get blackouts, which I got them. Not a lot. But I mean, that's. That's scary. That's very scary to have a blackout. And I just knew that the way that I was almost oppressed by the thought of when I would drink, how much I would drink, what are the rules, you know, how am I going to manage this? Like, that is not normal thought behavior about a substance.
And so I knew I didn't want to keep living like that. And I knew that God wanted me to give it up.
Not because drinking in and of itself is a sin, because for me, it was a problem.
And so there was a whole, whole host of. Of reasons to give it up, including the fact that both my husband and I have a lot of alcohol, alcoholic, like genetics in both of our families. Okay. So that was huge. And then it was just like, I don't want my kids to see me doing this. Like, I don't want to pass this down to them, you know, and the very best way that I can show them how not to do that is to not have it in our house. Yeah. And last thing on that is just that, you know, my husband and I, we fought a lot and drinking and us was not a good thing. And I was always the one bringing the alcohol home, so I was. I was fueling that problem.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Well, and if you're. If things are already tense, and I think in the book you write too, that like, this was all happening when your kids were little.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: You had a baby or a toddler or something.
So, yeah, when tensions are already high or fights are all like, everybody's already brain.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the highest chaos.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Alcohol is only going to, like, loosen.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Up those gears, say things you don't mean, and you're just. You're less discerning. You're much more likely to be.
You're not. You're not attuned to the little things. And like, when you're in a marriage and a family, like, you have to be able to pick up on that stuff. And when you're drinking, you're really drowning out any of that perception, both for your kids and your spouse.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah, all the filter is gone then at that point.
Well, in your research, either in your own story or as you were just kind of like researching to write freely, sober, what did you find to be, like, hidden effects that people might not realize were actually connected to drinking alcohol?
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Well, I think people and I. I feel like this is becoming much more common knowledge. So I say it being like, you probably already know this, but, you know, I didn't realize back then how, you know, we drink to cure our anxiety, but ultimately alcohol fuels anxiety. Like, it's a. It's a horrible cycle of, like, get anxiety, drink your anxiety, like, subsides for a little bit.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Get.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Get anxiety again, you know, at a higher level, and then you want to drink again. It's like a daily. And you train your brain and your body to want alcohol and to think it needs alcohol. And that is why the cravings and the triggers are so strong, because your body is just, like, doing what it's told. Essentially, alcohol is an addictive substance. It is a drug. And I think, you know, we don't really think of it as a drug. It's legal, it's celebrated, it's everywhere. It's integrated into the. The fabric of our lives. And so I think there's a. Get some level. We're just going, well, it can't be that bad. Right? I mean, it's everywhere. So if it was that bad, would we really be. You know, it's like, if we had, like, cocaine everywhere, maybe that would be normalized, you know, but we've normalized. Yeah. And we've. And we just didn't ask enough questions. But I think nowadays we're seeing a lot of experts, wellness people, I mean, even. Not even on the addiction side, but just the body side and especially for women, how it is affecting us, like our energy, our anxiety, depression, hormones, sleep, all of these different things that the way that we function optimally are interrupted when we're drinking on a regular basis. Like if you're having a glass of wine every two weeks, like, you're probably fine, but if you're drinking every single day, that is a disruption to your system in a way that you might want to explore and consider how it's affecting you.
[00:11:48] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think it's interesting that you mention, you know, not just anxiety, but sleep, like all of these physiological things.
How you said women specifically, is this like biologically, like as we age. I know being perimenopausal myself, same alcohol does affect, like, I can't even drink red wine at all because it was messing. I noticed that it was messing up my sleep and I was like, well, this is not worth. This is not worth it.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: It is not worth it to lose sleep. I'm telling you. What. So yeah, so what is totally insane. A couple insane statistics are that the rate of alcohol related illnesses killing women since the year 1999 has increased by like 299% and it's been going up every single year. Now the rate for men is also going up, but at a much slower pace.
So women are being affected in a much more aggressive way that could be twofold.
You know, in the past 20 years, part of that 20, 25 years, alcohol marketing just zeroed in on women. I mean, it's like, you don't have to guess when you go to the grocery store, the aisles of all the drinks that are targeted towards women, anything. That's sweet. It's actually, I feel like most of the alcohol you see these days, and that's because at one point they realize, oh, when we market this towards women and we put a pink label on it and tell them, it's like empowering and you can drink. Like the guys, they pay more money and they buy a lot of it. And so that's kind of what happened. I think we're in a point now where we're finally starting to see like the wool has been pulled back and we're like, oh, they really did a number on us. So there's that. But it's also just the fact that women's bodies are different and they pro. It processes alcohol differently both long Term and short term. So when you look at the statistics, you just see that short term in terms of, you know, hangovers and how quickly women get drunk and how it affects them also. Not to mention putting themselves in really vulnerable situations as women being safe. Yeah, right. It's, it's just. It is, it is. Unfortunately, it is unsafer for women. But then the long term too, in terms of the research showing the connections to cancer, I mean, every day I feel like there's a new study that's like, Yep, there's a 5% increased risk in breast cancer if you're drinking. Not that much. Like, it's not that much.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: And other things too. Liver disease. Women are dying of liver disease at higher rates than men. I believe I read that yesterday somewhere. And just all the other things like our entire bodies and then dysregulating our hormones and all of that, I mean, it's just not good for us.
And in a society where we are talking constantly about getting the dyes out of our foods and the toxins out of our houses, it's like this to me is like a no brainer. Not saying you have to quit drinking completely, of course, but just like, hey, this is something we should be talking about in the whole conversation.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm going to quote you, you actually made a really good point in your book that I loved. And you said sex outside of marriage is a sin, not sex itself. Gluttony is a sin. Not eating. Lusting is a sin, not attraction. Drunkenness is a sin, not drinking. So with that distinction, how did you know it was becoming sinful for you?
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean the real, you know, eye opener is just like drunkenness is a sin. We know that. And I was not drinking to not get drunk. You know, I was drinking and I know there's, well, is a buzz drunk, you know, there's that conversation. But I would say too far. How far is too exactly.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: For every sin that there is.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Exactly.
But for me it was like, well, you know, once I get to even a little bit of a, you know, feeling intoxicated stage, I'm much more likely to have another drink or make a bad decision. You know, it's so, it just, it leads to making a sinful choice a lot of times.
And then also, I mean, the reality of addiction is very layered.
And I don't, you know, I don't really say I'm an addict or I'm an alcoholic. I don't say that labels can be weird. They can be off putting. Some people don't like them. I don't care what people say about themselves. But for me, the addiction was really more of a mental thing, but it was also a little physical because the triggers and you have training your brain. I wasn't, like, getting withdrawals. But, um, Point being, though, that I always. I want to make the distinction, like, addiction in and of itself, like, that is not a sin. That is like a physiological reaction to a substance. Um, in my opinion, I feel like you can distinguish. Distinguish between having an addiction and, you know, the sin that comes as a result of that, or, you know, the sin that was a Created that in the first place. So I know that's a little unclear to explain, but I think there's been a lot of stereotypes and assumptions about people that struggle with addiction in culture and in the church. And I think it's really just important to understand that, like, when someone is inside of addiction, no matter. No matter how they got there, there's a lot of layers to that, and it's not always just as easy as we'll just stop, you know?
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: And we need to have compassion and understanding for. For the steps that it takes to get out of that. Yeah.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: I'm glad that you kind of differentiated that, because there is a lot of grace needed and a lot of help and a lot of assistance, and people who are addicts or are addicted to whatever do need the permission to say, like, hey, this is beyond my control, and so I need help here. Like, yes, maybe I made some choices, but now I can't stop. I literally can't stop making them. So.
And we would want to support, you know, anybody, whether it's alcohol, any other kind of substance.
So you mentioned early on that there seemed to be no good answer, that, like, you knew something needed to change, but you feared that if you stopped, people would make untrue, true assumptions about why you had to quit.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: So talk us through that tension a little bit.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I just had. I just thought, well, if I. If I tell people like, that I'm struggling with this, like, they're gonna think that I have this really bad problem and that, like, I'm not a safe person or, you know, I was. I was really worried that if I told someone and then I drank in front of them or I drank again, that people would be like, oh, my gosh. Or, like, I don't. I don't know. That fear of, like, telling someone and then going back on it. Yeah. That kept me from telling anyone for a really long time because I was like, well, I don't know if I can do this, so, like, I better not say anything, because then I can't go back to it or I have to lie about it. So that was a weird, weird fear. And now I think it's not funny, but, like, it's interesting what you learn, like, years down the road, because now I'm like, yeah, I know people mess up. Like. Like, you have to expect that people are going to mess up. Most people that try to quit drinking, like, don't do it on the first time, you know? And so I encourage people, like, say it out loud before you even start. You know, saying it out loud is what gives you empowerment to do it and also just to begin to identify with what that even means for you.
You have to sort of just go there in your mind, like, what would it look like if I did this? And what would it look like if I did this? And then I started drinking again? Like, what would that look like? You know, it's just that same scenario we think about with so many parts of life where it's like, go to the worst place or go, you know, go as far as it can go and put yourself there, and then you don't have to fear it.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know in your story, too, you shared in the book, like, that was your experience, right, that you stopped drinking and then you went back to it, and then you stopped drinking, and then you went back to it.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And in the. More like, the largest sort of example of that is when I stopped drinking for about six months and actually went in front of my church, which, again, is small, but I went in front of my church, and I, like, told my story, and it was a little scary thinking, like, well, if I do this. But, you know, then it was like, right after that was Covid hit, and I ended up drinking again after that. And so for a while, I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, I don't want anyone to know, you know, but. But nobody. I wasn't seeing anyone anyway. You know, it was like. It was Covid so you could hide. So. But by the end of the summer, I had sort of gotten right back to all the same habits, right back to feeling oppressed and managed by it. And I was like, all right, I have to try this again. Like, this isn't working.
Which is an experience a lot of people have when they think they can handle it. They go, okay, I'm fine. Like, it's fine. And then the patterns come back. And so. But now I'm. I'm actually so glad I had that experience because I can really relate to people that do.
And the other thing I've really been pushing lately is to say that, you know, the success marker of sobriety, or whatever your. Your sort of journey down this pathway is, is not always just like all the days that you weren't drinking. I mean, it is just a drink. And it's about so much more than the Dr. And so I really encourage people, like, there are other markers of success, like, what are you learning? How are you growing? Are you growing closer to God? Are you becoming a better parent? You know, what are the other things you can look at as measures of success instead of just beating yourself up for screwing up? Because every day that you're doing this, like, is a step in the right direction and it all matters, even if you end up falling down at some point.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
While it's probably different for everyone, you, you know, the book is called Freely Sober, so it's probably different for everyone. What were your signs? Not just love, like, hey, I probably should give up alcohol, but that you weren't living in freedom in your life.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: I was definitely not living in freedom. I felt very controlled by alcohol, compelled. You know, I've talked to a lot of people about this, and the word compulsion is very, very familiar to a lot of people that struggle with alcohol. They just feel like.
I explain it, like, when, you know, if I were to say to myself, okay, today I am not drinking. I'm, like, detoxing today. But if 5 o' clock or 6 o' clock hits in, the thought enters my mind, I want to drink. It was almost like feeling like, well, it's too late now.
I have to do it now. Because I thought, right. I would be like, oh, no. Like, and it almost felt like you had to obey it. I mean, very oppressive.
Obviously, you don't have to obey that voice, but it would just be like, well, this feeling is not going to go away. I can't handle this feeling. So I'm going to. I'm going to do it. But the more often that happened, which has started happening more frequently, you know, before I ended up quitting, the more I felt totally out of control. Like, I would. I would wake up in the middle of the night and have to go pee. And I would be sitting there going, I said I wasn't going to drink. And then I did it anyway. I feel out of control. I feel out of control. Like, I'm not doing. I'm not controlling this. And so that to me was a very. Like, I just couldn't live like that anymore.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. In those kind of, like, up and downs where you felt like you were able to quit and then you went back to it, what did you find that you had to really extend? Like, how did you get to the place of going? Like, okay, I'm going to try this again, as opposed to, well, I failed. So now I guess I'll just drink forever.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, the idea of drinking forever did not sound good because I was like, well, that's not going to get me anywhere. But I had this concept of, you know, it's really every day that you do this and you're drinking, like, there's a lot of shame and regret. And that's hard. Like, it's hard. Like, you have this moments of ease, but, like, you're dealing with this constant, you know, hardship of all the other things. And it's like. But then it's also very hard not to drink. That's also very hard. Both of them are hard. So choose your hard. Which hard is going to lead to life and flourishing and goodness. And there was no question, which that was.
And, you know, it's. It's very hard for people to say, I'm not going to drink for the rest of my life. I mean, that's.
That's. I. So I couldn't say that. You know, I could never say that.
Even saying that now makes me feel nervous. And it's been five years. Like, I don't think I will, but, like, it still feels weird to be like, really my whole life.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Like, marker on it.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, I got a tracker. You know, I got one of those sober counters just to have the numbers there.
And really, it was community that saved me, which we. You know, you hear that so much, but it's just because it's true. I joined a sobriety support group online called the Luckiest Club.
And I started going to these daily meetings. They had, like four or five meetings a day you could just jump on. And I was so fascinated by this. Yeah. On Zoom. Okay. And so I was like, oh, you can just. I just would. At first, I was going to meetings all the time because I was just, like, totally intrigued by that. I could just be like a fly on the wall and they would have people giving, you know, their. Their stories, and people would be telling you their deepest, darkest secrets. On these Zoom meetings, of course, they're not recorded or anything. It's all, you know, you don't share your name, but.
But to me, it was so strengthening. Because I was like, well all these people are doing the same thing. And it was everyone from, you know, we had like, there's like a 22 year old single mama toddlers to a 75 year old guy who's 20 years sober and, and everything in between, dentists, doctors, teachers, you know, all these different people all in this one place. And I really think their strength and their stories were so helpful to me and being like, okay, well everybody, you know, people have mess up stories all the time. And so it was like kind of holding on to that and holding on to what I knew God had for me too. I mean, I just knew that he had something better.
And I knew like I would say to myself, has God ever like failed you? Has God ever told you something that wasn't true? I'm like, no.
So I should probably trust him on that one. Yeah.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Well, you mentioned in the book, Erica, I'm sure there are people listening that are having the thought either right now or have had the thought right of like, I probably should just cut back, like, maybe I don't need to quit, but maybe I should cut back. Maybe I'll just have one a day and then one a week or whatever it is.
But in the book you talked, you called that like the myth of moderation.
So I want to know why you think that's more exhausting than just letting go of alcohol completely.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Well, it can be. And you know, of course there are exceptions to every rule, but for the majority of people, if you are trying to moderate and you're creating rules around it, which common rules would be, I'm only drinking on the weekends or I can only have wine. I mean, I. My rule for myself was like pretty much never drink liquor because liquor could go south really fast. Because obviously you don't need a whole lot of it to go a long way.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: And so I just was like, no liquor, you know, because things would go south and so it would be like all these rules and then, and then sometimes you find yourself like hedging, well, it's Thursday, you know, or you know, it's like, right, it's like. Or like, oh, I'm at this thing, like it's celebratory, whatever, but it just, it becomes something that it's mental energy that you don't need to be spending, you know, and why. I think the real question is why do you think you need to do this? Because if you're just sort of like surface level being like, yeah, I should drink less, but it's like well, why do you think you need to drink? Lesser? Why do you think you need to drink at all? Like, what is that bringing to you? I think it's really important.
Unless you're someone that literally never thinks about this and doesn't care, could take it or leave it any situation, I think it's worth everyone sort of doing an inventory on this, and which. I have a lot of that stuff in the book. Like, I tried to make it really practical in terms of. There's like, a really big, like, assessment after, I think, chapter one or maybe two, where you just like, ask yourself all these questions, go through your history. What was alcohol like when you were a kid? How was it talked about? How, you know, how did it surround you? What assumptions do you. Do you have about it? And you really find that you start to uncover things that are like, oh, okay, I didn't realize that that's. You know. And the more that you investigate, you sort of, like, learn stuff about yourself and your history.
And ultimately, what that does is it just kind of clarifies things for you.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: And I hope by the end of the book that, you know, my goal is people read the book, and by the end of the book, they don't think they'll never think about alcohol in the same way again. So it's not. Read this book and get sober. So don't get. Don't be scared to read the book if you're like, well, I'm not. You know, I'm not. My goal is not for you to be sober. My goal is for you to have new information and just think about it differently and maybe more thoughtfully and intentionally, because it really is.
It's something that.
I mean, think about this.
How many people have gone through aa? There's even a whole program, Al Anon for friends and family members of alcoholics.
How many families have been destroyed by alcoholism, domestic violence? 90% of domestic violence has alcohol involved. So this is not a neutral, whatever, take it or leave it substance. It's something that we should be intentional about, we should be teaching our kids about, but no one really ever does that. And so I think that's kind of where the problem is. And I think we all owe it to ourselves and, like, our families and society. Like, think a little bit more deeply about how this destructive substance could affect our bodies, hearts, and minds instead of just being like, well, it's a. It's a personal freedom issue, so good luck.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I. The book is a resource, and so not just for people to, like, teach their Kids like, you know, But I can remember a time in my life where I was drinking because I did not want to ask the question of why I was drinking.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean? So there are probably people listening that are like, actually, no thank you. Like, I don't want to dig into the why behind why am I doing it? Because it seems scary and it is easier to drink. But the way that you kind of walk people through it in the book is, is very helpful. And I would say it kind of removes the fear of like, I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know what to ask. I don't even know where my thoughts are going to take me. So I just want to encourage people listening. Like, Erica walks you, she walks you, right?
[00:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's, you know, so far, you know, I just came out last week, but I mean, so far, like I'm already getting feedback. It's like, wow, this is like very compassionate and like it's really gray space. And that's, that's the goal. Because you cannot force someone to do this. You know, you have to do it with grace. That's why it's called freely sober. Because I realized that when I was trying to jam myself into this like, box of like, okay, you must quit drinking, that's when it would always fail. It wasn't until I really educated myself on all these things about alcohol, including how it affects the body and is effect, you know, related to cancer and stuff. But, but so many other things to where I could walk into and be like, actually I think I want to choose this for my life. And I can see how my life would be better with it. Not because someone's telling me, not because it's a sin, but because look what I've discovered. And I can now make an informed, empowered decision and feel good about that. And it's a lot, you feel a lot stronger when you do it that way too.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Yeah. How did sobriety, once you got there, how did it force you to renegotiate not only just like fun or social events, but also friendship and belonging in general?
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think the sober firsts are something a lot of people talk about in the recovery community because you're like, I mean, we've all said things like this before. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, do a 30 day detox like after New Year's Eve or like after my vacation or after my best friend's wedding. I'm going to definitely you know, I have a friend who was like, yeah, I mean, we're trying to get pregnant again, but I'm going to wait until after we take our cruise to Mexico. And I was like, you're going to wait just so you can drink? I mean, just. That's silly.
So I think there is a lot of apprehension about that. So I kind of, you know, you have to walk into those situations prepared, like, have a list of things you're going to do, like, just a go to so you know what you're going to do if a feeling strikes. Like, so you're not. You don't immediately drink. Now, that doesn't mean, like, you're always going to succeed, but at least you have, like, somewhat of a plan that gives you a little bit of a buffer. So anything from, like, you know, walk in with your own drink or, you know, text a friend or, you know, tell yourself that if you're there for 10 minutes and you hate it, you can leave.
Things like that. And, like, for. I remember my first concert, I kind of looked at it as a experiment. I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. I'm going to have fun. And so to this day, I still do this with concerts. I always have probably, like, two Red Bulls and a bunch of sour gummy worms.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Yeah, great.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: Which is not the best thing you can do for your body. But to me, it's like a little treat, and it gets me hyper and I have fun.
So that's my little concert thing that I still do.
But you can look at these things as new experiences and also realize, like, I think the thing that I realized, and I've said this a lot, is just that when I went to that concert, I remember thinking, do I feel drunk right now? Even though I was drinking, like, diet Coke. And then I was like, no, it's not that. It's just that, like, it's the atmosphere. It's like, what I'm doing that I like. I like, would attribute so much to. Like, oh, it's the alcohol that's making this fun. I was like, oh, my gosh, it's fun without the alcohol.
It's just, like, fun. Like, I've been to weddings where I was, like, dancing and not drinking and being like, oh, this is fun. This is still fun.
And you just. We've just wrapped alcohol into everything that we do that we think that we give it so much credit. And it's like, no, it doesn't deserve all that credit. Like, it's the people, and it's just like the life experiences. And the last thing I'll say is the best thing is if you haven't had like a good, like really serious, like laughing session with like friends without drinking in a long time, that is highly recommended because that kind of laughter is like so much more genuine and happy than drunk laughter.
There's just something about it that's like so pure and happy. And I would say that's one of my favorite things.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Oh, and you'll remember it after.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: You'll remember and you'll remember it. You'll remember the joke.
[00:33:15] Speaker B: This is so funny.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's just a lot of authenticity I think, that you miss out on, especially in relationships where, you know, that's always part of it.
You'll, you'll discover things. You'll discover things about people. You'll begin to notice things that you didn't notice before. That doesn't come right away, but it's one of those natural, sort of organic, long term things where you can look back and go, oh, I was missing so much.
But you have to give yourself the time to process and see it.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and this kind of makes me think, like, were there other areas of your life that you felt like you found freedom, you know, like you said, like in laughing or at events?
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: How is it like freedom in other areas?
[00:33:58] Speaker A: Well, there were a couple things in my life that were sort of underlying issues that I didn't want to deal with. Okay. And so what I found, and I didn't actually do this intentionally, was that when I quit drinking, I sort of naturally gravitated towards dealing with those problems.
It was as if I was using the drinking. Like that was always the main problem. Okay, I've got it. I've got to quit. This has got to be. This is the prayer. I'm praying this prayer. Get rid of alcohol in my life. Well, when I got alcohol out of my life, I then was like, had the space to focus on these other things that were really hard. And so I would say those things are currently still hard for me, but I've made a lot of progress in them.
And then otherwise just like never being like, I never have to have a hangover again. I mean, I had a lot of hangovers in my life and they were very bad. Like I got them very bad. It's like, I'm never going to feel that way again. I never have to worry about getting up early. I'm not going to have headaches from this. I don't have to.
You Know, leave a party and be like, did I have too much or am I okay to drive? I don't, I don't have to ask that question anymore.
And I can always drive. Like, I don't ever have to worry about that. I can just get there. I know that seems maybe kind of silly, but it's like those are things that you have to think about. And so I feel very free in that way. And also just like I don't have that oppressive thought, those oppressive thoughts all the time, not thinking about it. And that is true freedom.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I appreciate that you said the hard things are still hard.
You know, like, it's not all of a sudden gonna go okay now. Like, life is great and everything is easy.
So as a Christian specifically, like, how did your faith kind of play a part in that and support you as opposed to maybe if you were facing this, you know, without like God on your side?
[00:35:41] Speaker A: I hate to say.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Without a faith support.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think originally, you know, the call came from inside, inside the house, from the Holy Spirit. So I was following that lead, you know, for actually many years, like pursuing this desire to find freedom from this. Not yet finding it, but I think hanging on to that and continuing to pray about it and continuing to seek God about it is what ultimately led me to being able to say, I'm not doing this anymore. I think without a larger purpose and understanding of why I'm here at all on earth, it would have been harder for me. But when you look at your life and you know, as a Christian like we do, we know that we have, you know, this specific purpose that God created us for. And for me, knowing what he was saying and knowing that I'm called to obedience, you know, it was eventually going to be a no brainer. And I knew when he told me a long time ago that I would quit drinking, like, I kind of knew, like, it will happen, but I just didn't know how. And so I think, you know, he was just walking along with me every step of the way and introducing me to the people and the tools and, you know, slowly but surely me finding the strength, like again, it was never going to be a black and white. One day I'm not drinking, or when I'm drinking one day I'm not. It's, it's never that easy. And so I would just say for anyone that is in that boat, or maybe they've tried again and they're falling down, this is a long road and you have to sort of have that mindset like that. I'm, you know, things aren't going to be perfect, but, like, I'm just going to keep going. It's like a marathon. Like, it's not a 5K. It's a marathon.
And even if you overcome the drinking, like, you have to know that all of our life is.
We're always getting up again for some reason.
It's not going to be over fully until we are in heaven. So I think that's another thing. It's just like, everyone's got to struggle. Drinking is not a more shameful struggle than someone that's struggling with, I don't know, lying or, you know, some other thing. It's just how we are dealing with our brokenness. And we're trying. It's a. It's a. It's a good pursuit. We're trying to fix something. We're just not fixing it in the right way. And so let's find the tools to fix it in a way that is honoring to us and honoring to God.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: Well, you mentioned other things. So, Erica, I'm curious if you think the principles of your book and the things that you write about can be applied to other things besides alcohol.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: I think so. I mean, it's like the nature of any kind of addiction, big or small, however you want to think about it. It's like really all coming from the same place.
So I think, you know, whatever tools and methods that you would use to deal with an alcohol struggle could be used for other things as well. Whether that's, you know, a drug or maybe it's your phone. Maybe it's food. Food is another one. I mean, I. That's. We won't even get into that. But I had an eating disorder for many years, and so I've dealt with it in that way. And I write about that a lot on my substack or I have written about it. And so I do think whatever the struggle is, like, you can employ these tools.
And also, just like, you need a community around you. Like, you need people that get it.
That is always the first thing I do, no matter what my problem is. Like, if I'm like. Like right now with my daughter sleeping, I'm like, who can I. I need to go find a group of moms to come. I was like, I need people to help me with this because I'm so frustrated with it, and I don't know what to do. And that's always my first instinct. I'm also an extrovert and a social person, so I know it can be harder if you're an introvert. But I would say there, it's so invaluable to have people that get it.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I really appreciate. I mean, I kind of don't, because now I feel compelled to say something. But I do appreciate that you brought up food, because I think that I also realized with the help of, like, a therapist, that I had. I called it disordered eating. I would not call it an eating disorder, which I know is nitpicky and probably this.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: I get it, though. I do get it.
[00:39:38] Speaker B: But for me, it was. It was just binge eating. And there was never anything that came after. I never purged. I never starved myself.
And so because it was, like, quote, unquote, acceptable, I never saw it as an addiction. And it was. And for me, it was very connected to my emotions and depravity and things that I felt like I was not getting and didn't know how to get.
And so I only say that to say for whoever's listening, you know, that if I think sometimes it's easy to justify and go, well, me eating all of this at night after everybody goes to bed, like, is not an addiction. It's fine, or it's okay, or it's not a problem.
But that maybe it is still worth digging into. Like, the.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: But it probably didn't feel fine to you. You know, you probably were like, something seems off with this. And I, I. You know, it's interesting because I had, like, several different kinds of eating disorders, but I did have, I guess what you would call binge eating disorder. And it's. It was interesting how I would have these. The same sort of compulsive feeling that I feel for alcohol. I would feel for food. Like, I remember. And, And, And. And I would say, also, looking back, having overcome that eating disorder, I saw how I found freedom from that. I was like, I don't have that compulsion anymore to do that from that. So I know that I can get rid of this other one, too. It's possible. I've seen it happen.
And I will also just. Sorry, I keep. I keep adding, like, one more thing. But one more thing is that it always feels impossible before you do it. And every single person that is sober or has overcome eating disorder or whatever the thing is, felt that way too. But you can look at the people that have gone before you and be like, they did it. And they're telling me that it's possible, and they're telling me that they felt like this and they were able to get through It. And get through to the other side. It gets easier. It really does get easier. I want people to know that. So if you're in the middle of the struggle, keep going.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
Do you believe. Erica, and I know this is not a prescriptive book for everybody to be exactly the same and land in the same place, but do you believe that Christians can have a healthy relationship with alcohol? Or are you, like. But I really do think it's in everyone's best interest to abstain.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: I think you can. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think there. I know people. I. You know, we call them normies. People that have no issue with drinking.
I always wanted to be one. Never was.
But I do think that there are people that are. Can take it or leave it, or they're like, they really do enjoy their glass of wine with their steak or whatever. You know, I think that is totally fine. I would just say, say, listen, be attentive to the inner voice about it. You know, it is something to be more intentional about that we have. And also with the church and Christians specifically, I just want people to be more aware that there are people that are really struggling, that you have no idea that they're struggling. I mean, nobody's telling you about it. And it may be fully happening at home where nobody ever sees it or knows it. And so when you are at an event or you're doing something where there is alcohol, like, be in the know that someone may have a problem with that. And so whether that's. Make sure you're always offering lots of options, or you maybe are even asking, like, oh, does anyone mind if I drink? I don't know. Like, just being aware, you just don't know who is struggling. And, like, so we have responsibility, I think, just to be sensitive to that and even ask God to, like, be like, hey, like, let me know. Like, hey, Holy Spirit, like, give me a sign if, you know, there's a thing here where I need to be aware of someone's issue.
And so, yeah, I. I'm really just out here right now telling people, please be more aware. Please understand that addiction is much more common than you realize.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, I really appreciate that. And I know that even as a leader at a church, like, we have had events where we did just like, girl hangout, you know, whatever, where we have offered wine, Diet Coke, all the things.
And after doing that a few times, the other female leader and I had a conversation, and we both kind of came to the conclusion at the same time. We were like, I think this Is not the thing. Like, I think this is not it for us. We're offering, like. And so we've, we shifted and we, and some people are like, great, appreciate it. Other people are like, oh, but it was so fun. And, but, but this is our opportunity to, like you said, bring awareness to.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: What we just don't know is happening with other people.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: I get it. I mean, I would have wanted the wine. When I was drinking, I would have wanted you to have the wine. But also, it's like, it's not. It's bigger than us. And so I agree. I don't think churches should have. I personally do not think churches should have alcohol at any events. I know that there are some denominations that, you know, it's different, but I think they need to be just even that much more aware. Right.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, Erica, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:44:25] Speaker A: Well, by doing what I just said, which is being aware of the people around you and also making yourself a safe place. I mean, I am seen by many people as a safe space to tell things to because I've been so open and vulnerable about my issue. But you can make yourself a safe place to people by sharing your own struggles more openly and even just asking open ended questions and giving an opportunity to, for people to, like, admit to you what they're dealing with.
And that can take time to build those relationships. But I think it's really important that, like, we're having that space in our lives for people so that they do feel comfortable being like, I'm dealing with this. And so, yeah, that would be my answer.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. Well, we will link up your book for people that either on their own or maybe if they suspect that a family or a friend or someone that they love might have an issue, it would be a really great resource for them. So thank you for writing it.
[00:45:23] Speaker A: Yes, thank you for having me. Yes. I'm so, so excited that we got to have this conversation. Thank you.
[00:45:33] Speaker B: Whatever it is that you're struggling with, whether it's alcohol or another substance, maybe it's deceit, pornography, social media, and the 247 news cycle. Food, or maybe even jumping from relationship to relationship, whatever it is, my prayer is that you would give yourself grace. Find someone who can pray with you and for you, either a pastor or a friend or an online support group with other people who understand your unique situation.
And please don't believe the lie that just because you mess up again, that you're a failure. God's mercies are new for you every single morning and he will never give up on you becoming a more healed and whole person.
Reach out to Eric, Erica if you have questions or want some advice. Or you can always get to me on Instagram. Hristenmachler Young until next time. Thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
