Mary Van Geffen: Parenting a Spicy One

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Mary Van Geffen, parenting extraordinaire. Especially for the kids who are maybe making you question everything about your parenting. Mary's back on the show to talk about her new book, which is a compilation of all the coaching, teaching, and learning that she herself has done over the years. Now, for those of you listening right now, if you scroll down and use the link in the show notes to pre order mary's book before February 10th, you will get two free bonuses. You'll get Mary's Affirmations Masterclass and the Meltdown Meditations for Moms. You only have a few days to get these pre order bonuses, so be sure to grab them while you can. Mary Van Geffen, welcome back to Becoming Church. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so glad to be here. You are just the most fun spiritual Pastor Barbie I've ever met there. They don't make them like you. And I'm just glad to be here. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Thank you. Actually, you are the first person that ever called me Pastor Barbie. So people need to know. This is a Mary Van Geffen coined phrase that I have now adopted and use all the time. So I thank you for that greatly. [00:01:29] Speaker A: I love it. I'm so excited about the transformation of, like, women in entrepreneurial spaces and in ministry and just in the workplace. We tried so hard to be professional and really all we were doing was trying to be like men. And now I feel like women are like, no, this is how I, I manage according to my cycle. I, you know, it's like there's much more freedom and just being who God created you to be instead of trying to be so professional. So I love that you took the Barbie and that is you. That's how you were create. That's. [00:02:01] Speaker B: That's the only way I know how to be. And guess what? You're right. To your point, I think women are finding a lot more success. And when I say success, I don't necessarily mean like business or achievement, but just in living and doing what they want to do and being who they were created to be by embracing that instead of trying to box it in. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Yes. And I also believe, like, I can visualize it in my head. I don't know if I can explain it, but like black and white dominoes set up, you know, when people do one of those really long dominoes. Yeah. Every time one human and or woman is very much herself and steps into who she was meant to be and stops apologizing and takes up space like that, pops over to the next domino and somebody else looks at it, and maybe at first they're a little bit averse to it because usually it's a spicy one that does it, and then they feel like, oh, well, if she can talk like that or ask for that, then maybe I can, too. And just the more that we are ourself, the more we innate, enable everybody to be themselves, and then we're all more made in the image of God. We're not trying to do some impression. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen. Well, thanks for being here. That's the episode. Hey, guys. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Nothing to do with parenting. [00:03:12] Speaker B: No, I love it. I love it. It's so perfect. Mary, four people. You were. You were on way back in 2023, in episode 43, but no one listened to the podcast. [00:03:24] Speaker A: I believed in it. They do now. [00:03:25] Speaker B: At least not like they do now. So I want to do a little quick fire Q and A and help people that might not know you yet get to know you a little bit. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:03:34] Speaker B: So, quick fire. What is some parenting advice that you immediately ignore when you hear it? [00:03:40] Speaker A: Consistency. Because I have ADHD and I can't be consistent. I can be. I can be calm, kind, and firm, but I'm going to probably do it differently every single day, and that's okay. My child is very adaptable now because of it. Both. Okay. Okay. [00:03:58] Speaker B: What is a sound that instantly dysregulates you? [00:04:02] Speaker A: The sound of two different songs playing at once. I'm very aware of music, and I love it, but if you sit me down in a restaurant and I can hear the kitchen's music and I can hear the house's music, I feel like I'm caught in a riptide. And I'm like, we've got to change seats. Like, does anyone else hear that? And no one else does, and then they do, and they're mad at you for bringing your. Their attention to it, so. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Because then they hear it. Yeah. [00:04:27] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. My college roommate used to have the TV on and listen to music, and it would make me absolutely loony. [00:04:36] Speaker A: That's not okay. [00:04:37] Speaker B: All right, Mary, what's a consequence that you doled out, and this could be forever ago, but you. That you doled out, that backfired, like, spectacularly. [00:04:46] Speaker A: I needed to get out of the house and in adult human, you know, proximity. And my daughter was once again completely defying me, and I was like, that's it. We're not going anywhere. And then I was like, oh, but I desperately need to go somewhere. And so, yeah, that would be it. Yes. [00:05:11] Speaker B: Don't you hate. I hate as a parent when. And it was harder when my kids were younger to like, threaten that consequence, but then you have to follow through because you threatened it and it actually like, punishes you sometimes more than the kids. [00:05:26] Speaker A: Yes. And you will see, my whole spiel is like, let's not have punishment as like, punishment is the nuclear weapon. And so many of us are like, okay, what's the punishment when we're, we're pretending we want a consequence, but really we want it. We want something that hurts and we don't. Yes. Need that to get a child to be more collaborative. Yes. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Okay, we're going to come back to that. We're going to circle back to punishment. Is there anything before you had kids that you like, swore up and down you'd never do, but now you kind of do consistently? [00:05:55] Speaker A: I didn't want to be on this. He was like, my daughter's my best friend. I was like, what a bunch of losers. No, you're the parent and that child is your child. And now I am so proud to name my 21 year old is one of my best friends and somebody I can count on and who I touch base with all the time. And she calls me so. Not that I'm always the greatest friend, but she is one of my best friends. [00:06:21] Speaker B: I love that. And that gives me hope too because that's. I hope the same for my daughters. I'm like. And I do. It's weird because I'm like, am I supposed to be her best friend? [00:06:29] Speaker A: But I, well, what's hard is like, there is a power dynamic, right. And you learn all about like, I mean, I feel like the last 10 years about. Have been white women learning about power dynamics and like when and what is what we're not even aware of in the room. And so I, I do still hold to. Your child should likely not be your emotional confidant. So like, there are times when my husband is getting on my last nerve and I do not share that with my daughter. That's her daddy. And I, when she is really aggravating me, I don't do a lot of. Or if my feelings are hurt, I kind of process that on my own. And then I'll say, hey, when you said that. But I, I'm don't, I don't treat it as one of those sisterly relationships. I realize how I, what I say still Very much impacts her self esteem. I mean, to this, I'm, I'm 54 and if my mom says, you know what, I'm just so proud of you, I bloom up like a sponge in water. So we got to be careful with our words. It's not, it's not a un. Anything goes kind of friendship. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think too our kids remember things like when we're, if we're emotionally just kind of unloading, we're not really processing or thinking about it. But those words are going to stick with our kids for a long time, for much longer than they'll stick with us. [00:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:49] Speaker B: I. Mary. [00:07:50] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, go ahead. Well, I just, the thing I'm most excited, I mean, it's dumb, but the thing that gets me so excited about my book is that if you take the COVID off and you didn't get to see this because I don't think you have the final copy yet. But if you take the COVID off, underneath are like, I should count how many I want to say. It's like 50 words that are positive that describe a strong willed, intense, sometimes defiant, spicy one. And I just have this vision of like moms and kids like with their finger going through the words and their kid being like, what does zesty mean? And which had it. [00:08:26] Speaker B: You're like, it's you. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. No, I have this copy right here. Parenting a spicy one. I can't wait to get that one so I can go through all the words with my own daughters. But for people who are new to you, Mary, or your parenting techniques, how. What do you mean when you say a kid is spicy and how do people know if they're raising one? [00:08:49] Speaker A: Oh, well, the short answer for what is a spicy one and do you have one? Is do you have a child that you believe you don't have what it takes to meet their needs, that they are either too strong for you or you are walking on eggshells, or their emotions are just overwhelming to you. If you wonder like, am I making things worse? I don't think I'm cut out for this, then you have a spicy one. And your spicy one may not feel like a spicy one to me and, and you may have a rambunctious, out of control at home spicy one who goes to school and does just fine. So it's really kind of eye of the beholder some of it. But there's also the classical, highly persistent, has a need for autonomy, can be defiant, but really I like to say they just have extreme Loyalty to their own soul and not to your adult agenda. And it's the, it's the qualities that will be in a leader that we will be like, oh, I want them to run this country that make them really hard to parent and be in charge of because they want power and, and not power, like in a mad hungry way. They want to influence and make a mark on the world and they want that from day one. And that's really hard if you have a conception that like, no, I'm the parent, I will say what we will do. And it's like, nope, this kid wants to negotiate everything until the point that they realize there's a boundary and then they melt down in like exorbitant, dramatic ways. And they tend to be louder and very aware of everything going on. Like they, they can tell when you're upset and they give it back to you double and they're super shame resistant. I was a spicy one, my mother was a spicy one and I'm raising a spicy one. And I've. It's been a 20 year spiritual journey for me because it was, it, there was some suffering in there and I had to switch the way I was showing up and what I defined as successful. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Well, and I think there's a whole. To make it, you know, spiritual too is like having to not only like, hey, these are skills that we are going to want our kids to have one day, these are going to be great skills in the future, so let's not squash them. But also being able to get to the point of this is not something that we need to take out of them. This is actually the way that God created these children, these people, these humans. He did this on purpose when he gave them all of these things. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And because you're a pastor, I never talk about this because I think it can be divisive. But I feel like there was a lot of religious indoctrination when I accepted Jesus and was also beginning to parent. Like two years after I became a baby Christian, I started being a parent and there was a lot of. Your relationship with your child is their model for their relationship with God. And I rebuke that. I don't think that we are stand ins for God. I think that we are failing forward humans that make tons of mistakes and are on our own journey. And I think when we frame it like, oh, if my kids right, if their heart is right with God, then they will comply. We're like setting up like a foundation of religious trauma. And so I just really like to tell Evangelical women that you don't represent God. You're, you can definitely see God in your child because they're made in the image of God and so are you. But don't feel like if they're defiant that suddenly that means you're not being responsible to God with your resources. Where do you stand on that? [00:12:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I'm 100%. I, I super agree with you. I think not only does it damage the relationship with the parent and the child, but it really messes up their relationship with who they, who they learn God to be and also who they learn themselves to be as God's children. You know, like there's damage done of. If you think that everything you're, you're a good kid when you comply, then you believe that you're a good Christian when you don't sin. And newsflash, no one is going to not sin. Which then means, okay, I guess we're all terrible Christians all the time and God's disappointed on us always. Well, what does that do for our self worth and self value? It crushes it. And then we show up in the world even more broken. We can't have empathy for other people. Like, it's just, I see it as just a spiraling of. It affects every relationship in like a damaging way. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I think when you have a spicy one, God is calling you potentially. I don't want to speak for anybody's journey, but I think you're being called to practice unconditional love because this kid is not going to try to earn it. And there are many mild childs who are like, did I do good, Mommy? Do you like it, Mommy? Are you mad at me, Mommy? Right. That's not who this kid is. And so you're going to have to find a way to keep marinating in the goodness of this child and the mago deo, just the beauty of them, even when they are not acting real beautiful. And I think that doesn't come naturally to us. We didn't experience that as kids ourselves. And so it's a very spiritual journey to me. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Well, and it's, you know, I heard somebody say once, like, which of your kids is easy to love and which of your kids teaches you how to love? [00:14:20] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:21] Speaker B: And that's exactly it. Because I love both of my girls, obviously, and it changes, it has shifted. But I remember specifically being asked that question in a particular season. And immediately I was like, this one is easy and this one is making me a more loving person in a way that is super. Not fun because I'm having to learn how to love her very differently. [00:14:43] Speaker A: Yes. And so many of us grew up feeling like we might be hard to love. And what a hard, heavy weight to have on you if you feel like you're constantly earning your keep. And so we get to do it over again with our children, even though we're trying to figure it out. It's definitely a build the plane while you're flying it situation. And I think if you have a parent, a spicy one, it's even harder because there's a lot of like stimulation coming at you, a lot of screaming, a lot of anger, a lot of big movements and it's hard work. My heart goes out to anybody who's still in that intense time of parenting. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you are here to help them and I'm so happy. So again, we've got your book, Parenting A Spicy one. A compassionate guide for raising a deep feeling and wonderfully strong willed kid. Now, Mary, I know that you've had calm, kind and firm classes for a while. Is this like a compilation of those or what? [00:15:42] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:15:42] Speaker B: What's the heart behind the book? [00:15:44] Speaker A: This is after spending 10, 12 years coaching one on one with moms and just seeing the same kind of themes and, and challenges and seeing just like, oh, there's a human experience here when you have a challenging that that needs to be addressed as do many techniques and tips and things that work. So I had a. I made a class called Moms of Spicy Ones and it's an eight week course and I did that for five years and over 1700 women went through it. And then I was like, I want to put it in a book that can go with somebody and also doesn't cost 500, which the class did. So it's a compilation of that course as well as just things that have inspired me. It's. I. Someone said, oh, it's a momoir. And I'm like, oh, is that a word? Have you heard that, Kristen? No. Don't worry because there's like 25 of it is me telling my story of being out of my depths. And how did I get to a place where I liked my kid? Well, first I had to like myself. And so kind of telling my story so that people can feel like, okay, she gets it. [00:16:58] Speaker B: She's. [00:16:58] Speaker A: Because I've always said I don't want to learn how to be calm from someone who's naturally calm. No, thank you. You're nervous. [00:17:04] Speaker B: What are you going to teach me? [00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah, what do you know? Because if you like I look at my two children, I got a mild child and a spicy one. And if you step on my mild child's foot, he's going to shrink down and go, oh, why'd you do that to me? If you step on my daughter's foot, she's gonna shove you and ask questions later. And that's just a nervous system. That's just a, you could call it a personality. But I think a lot of it is like somatically how your body responds to things. And so I had to learn how to be calm because I was raised by a redhead. I'm a redhead. And there was no calm in my game before the age of 30. And so figuring out like the techniques and also I'm autistic, so I'm good at thinking about like the, the, the themes and the patterns and so being able to like spell them out. I just kind of hyper focused for 12 years on what it takes to raise a strong willed kid and not die in the process. Yes. [00:18:00] Speaker B: Well, I'm so glad that you did. I want to know what does, what do your kids, but specifically your daughter think of the book and like you sharing your stories and even just, you know, your online presence, you're very careful with them. I've noticed this. Especially when you have their friends and things over. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Thank you for saying that. Because they don't feel that way. They don't. Well, I mean, if you go to my. I am not allowed to post anything of them after the age of like 12. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Oh, I watched, I feel like I watched the transition happen because we followed each other for a while where all of a sudden I was like, oh, Mary's being very intentional because my kids are a few years behind yours. So I'm like, yes, I'm, I'm learning all the parenting strategies, but I'm also watching and learning as like a mom influencer, you know, on social media. How are you handling your kids so well? [00:18:49] Speaker A: And that's how we could do a whole thing on that because I, I never want to be a, a person that I, I really try to stay away from. Like you should and. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:59] Speaker A: And yet like these little people don't have agency. They don't, they don't know. Like, like I would ask my 7 year old, is it okay? And they're like, yeah, because they don't know the, the ramifications. And so I do feel like I, if I had known now what I know then I probably would have put them online less. And so I'm glad that I had a Spicy one that was like, I don't want that. I was like, okay, you know, I'm not gonna. Not gonna be telling the world how to be connected to your kid and then secretly shoving mine on the Internet if she doesn't want to be on there against her will. Yeah, yeah. But I will tell you, it is. It's. It's funny because it's hard to connect with people online if you don't, like, draw them in with, like, look, here's me being a mother. And yet that's a private thing in our family. And so, yeah, it's been interesting. [00:19:50] Speaker B: There's more and more women doing it. I don't want to say the way you're doing it, but keeping their kids off camera and getting creative about ways to do it. [00:19:59] Speaker A: So, yeah, you guys are so creative. Well, then it's funny because I just downloaded, like, all this old footage that was on a camera, and they're so stinking cute. And I was like, may I put the. And by the way, I paid them. I was like, may I use this footage as content? Which sounds like a robot, like, villain mother. But I was like, may I use this? Because I want to help the. I want to help mothers not feel broken, and I want kids to not grow up feeling broken. And to do that, sometimes you have to share the stories. And there's a lot of me filming her having these unending tantrums, these unending meltdowns of. That I didn't know what to do. And I feel really is ambivalent. No, conflicted, because I think there's a lack of dignity in filming somebody who's upset and then putting it out in the world. But now she's 21, and she's saying, yeah, go for it. So I. Okay. But like, most people don't. When they. When their kid is five or six, they don't put them on because you don't want someone to, like, steal their identity. Well, she's already 22. And so, anyway, more. But they. They. They love that I am, like, I love when. Whenever they would go to somebody else's house. And I recommend this to anyone listening, I would always say, so tell me what you love about the way their family does things that you wish we did or maybe we can't do it, but you just love it about them. And what's one thing you. You miss about our family when you're with them? And this was usually when they'd stayed, like, a weekend at a girlfriend's house while we were traveling or something. Or went to visit family and it was always so interesting to hear and usually it was like, they're really strict. And then I'd be like, oh gosh, does that mean I'm not strict enough? Like, am I not? So that their, their perception of me is that I am very much for them and not looking to like, there's no gotcha moments. And yeah, so, so far so good. They, they don't. My son's like, I'm not following you, mom. I can't watch all that stuff because to the, to the what we're doing is so cringy. And it is sometimes cringy. Like us watching a video and pretending it's the first time we saw it and reacting like there is such a performative thing on the Internet that. I get it. So long answer. Please edit all that. Great. It was great. [00:22:22] Speaker B: It was great. I do think it's interesting that you have the word compassion right there in the subtitle of your book because we are in an era where, especially in the Christian world, you know, compassion and empathy on to certain people are often described to be like weak and ineffective. So I want to know how you see compassion actually as a key to raising healthy children. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Well, first I'll tell you that the research about challenging, explosive, strong willed kids says they don't do well with authoritarian. Do it because I said so. Do it because I'm going to punish you if you don't. Okay, you know, I'm not speaking to you now. All those sort of shame based things don't work because this kid is so allergic to shame. And what does work is setting an expectation of how you want things to go and pointing out the positives of what you see. And sometimes I'd be like, am I manipulating this kid? But if you're like, wow, what a gentleman. You held the door for me. Oh, feels good. Good to be a mom of a boy. Say that and he would keep that door open for the rest of his life. There's something that you, you help bloom something. When you talk about the goodness of it, you see more of it, right? So those are really important and both of those require compassion. And when we, when we are compassionate with our child, meaning we stay tender even when we're correcting their behavior and we connect with them even when they're totally out of control and upset and we don't think they should be, we make a home that is safe enough for them to actually change and grow. A kid needs some compassion for the parts of their brain that do the learning to be online. As soon as there's shame present or a separateness and there's a lack of connection, then that learning brain kind of shuts down. And so kids, especially spicy ones, they really need to know that they're loved and even when they mess up. And I want to be clear, compassion doesn't mean no boundaries. I think we started, you know, five years ago. It was gentle parenting. Gentle parenting. Gentle parenting. And then it was like, you know what? Gentle parenting doesn't work. And the thing that people were describing was kind of amorphous because there's no research on gentle parenting. There's research on authoritative parenting and collaborative parenting. But what people were mistaking it for was permissive parenting. You can hold a rule, a limit, and still be compassionate. And it sounds like, okay, yeah, logical. But I think a lot of us have this, like, unspoken rule that, oh, you know what? That's not okay. That they just spoke to me. They now need to feel some kind of pain. Maybe the pain is me scowling. Maybe the pain is me yelling. Maybe it's a punishment and they'll do it. And that is a false narrative. You can set a boundary and actually keep that kid in their more right learning brain, their prefrontal cortex. If you stay connected to them, you stay calm, kind, and firm. And that requires some compassion. That requires you to keep connecting with, like, oh, wow, I really don't like this behavior in my kid, and yet I love them and I'm here for them and we'll do this. And, you know, I think the part that some folks miss is that to be compassionate with your child, you kind of have to first be compassionate with yourself. And there's some folks that want to skip over that because they just bring so much childhood wounding. And they're like, you know, I'm the worst mother ever. I can't do anything but let me be a good parent for this child and tell them how, how much I, I, I love and adore them. But there's a disconnect there. It's just really hard to love in somebody else what you hate in yourself. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:16] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's my answer. [00:26:19] Speaker B: What do parents do with that, Mary? How do, how do we wrestle with, like, the discomfort of maybe our own identity or our perceived failures while also trying to wrestle with our children? Like, how do we do both of these things at the same time? [00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the. I'm building the plane while flying it. I mean, with a lot of compassion. I really believe that when we feel like, oh, I'm. I'm mucking it all up. I like. Like to visualize, like, a picture of compassion just poured over the whole thing. It's all going to be okay. You're doing your best, and your best keeps getting better. And I think sometimes we are encumbered with fear. And when we are in a place of fear of like, oh, something is wrong with my kid, or, this kid's gonna end up in prison, I can feel it. We. We can't find our most creative self. And so it. It's hard to. Because we're. We're already all like. There's these four stages of learning, right? And the first stage is unconscious incompetence. You have no idea that you're not good at something. You're screaming at your kid, you're pinching them when they get out of line, and it's all fine. And you don't even realize that they're sort of shutting down or they're. Or they get more fired up when you act that way. And then you start to learn a few things and you become consciously incompetent. And that is such a painful feeling. Like, whoa, I can see that I want to be this way, and I don't know how to. And that's just a. That's where a lot of parents are right now. Then as you work on this stuff, as you read my book and take my classes, you get more consciously competent. That's the third out of the four stages. But guess what? That's like if I hold this coffee cup just right, and I unclench my belly and I breathe out three times and I say the mantra that Mary told me to say, and I ask the question like, then I. Then I am the parent I like, but dang, I'm tired at the end of the day. Yes. And then you eventually get to conscious competence where your daughter can say something snarky to you, and you can be like, I'm okay, and they're okay, and I. I can. I don't have to react to the bad attitude when I'm trying to teach a specific tool. So I guess if somebody's trying to kind of be okay in their own identity as they're sort of shifting. Yeah. Just know that it's okay for your. Your healing and your child's growth to be happening simultaneously. Like, what a luck child to have a parent who is kind of working on this stuff even though it's uncomfortable. And you can't wait until you're fixed to parent well because you're never Fixed. So one thing that helps, I think, is naming the elephant, like, out loud. Naming the. The trigger that's happening. Like, oh, wow, you're using a very loud voice, and that is really hard for me. And then putting your own hand on. Heavily on your heart and just the. The act of naming what is. What is hard for you right now is a form of self compassion, and. [00:29:24] Speaker B: It helps name it with the child. [00:29:27] Speaker A: I mean, they can witness it. I. I'm all for, like, healthy modeling. Yes. Yeah. And all for. I'm all for customer service levels completely dropping when we're taking on a new skill. So let's say we're trying not to yell, and it's like, oh, here's the behavior I do not like. And they're like, am I gonna get breakfast or not? And it's like, you just take a moment, like, oh, yelling wakes up the scared parts of me. Doesn't feel good. Like, if you were watching. My eyes are closed. I'm, like, shutting out my kid. It's not about my kid right now. I need to check in with my body and tell it it's safe and, like, we can handle this. I'm the adult. And then once you kind of get it all calm, you can turn to that kid and say, do you want to try asking that in a different way? Or, ooh, that's harsh talk. Mommy doesn't respond to that. And. And the point I'm making is that, like, customer, you don't have to. You don't have to be, like, the greatest service provider of all time with your kid. You can be like, you know what? They're gonna have to figure it out while I do this work internally. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Just watching you do that. I can. My spicy one. [00:30:29] Speaker A: I. [00:30:29] Speaker B: If I tried to explain to her, you know, when she's mad at me, what are. What we're dealing with right now is she does not want me to remind her in the morning of the things that she needs to do to get ready for school. But then if she forgets something, like, yesterday, she forgot her lunchbox. She then wanted me to bring her lunchbox to her. And so then we had to have a conversation of, like, hey, you don't get to have both. Like, it can't go both ways. I can help. I want to help offer you reminders so that we don't forget things. I'm trying to teach you habits and routines, but if you yell at me because I know what to do, then do you know what I'm saying? Then there should be A consequence. So we had to have a conversation about, like, what can we do instead? And we came up with a. I'm gonna write out a list that she can go check by the door. So then my. Her reminders are there, but I'm not having to verbally remind her, you know, of the things. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Good job, Kristen. You are such a good mom. That's. [00:31:26] Speaker B: I've learned from you, Mary. Thank you so much. But I can also see her. If I were to stop and do what you just did in the middle of being kind of verbally, like, accosted, if I were to stop and just close my eyes and, like, kind of talk to myself out loud, she would go, like, what? She would stop. Like, I know she would stop and she would pay attention. And she may not say anything about it right then, but she would take it in as a. Like, oh, this is something that I can do instead. I can actually. Yes. [00:31:56] Speaker A: We are modeling coping skills. [00:31:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Another one, let's do it together. Is you take your thumb and your pointer finger and you squeeze them together, and then you move your thumb to. To your middle finger and squeeze them together, and then your ring finger and then your pinky, and you come back and you just start. And it's basically stimming. But the. The autistic folks have all the ideas that the neurotypicals need to try, and you. You're just pressing against them. And I even say, God bless you. Peace be with you. I love you. God bless you. Peace be with you. I love you. And I say that in my head when my daughter is sort of in one of her or my son in one of their moods where I feel like, oh, I. Either they're closed down to me and I can't find out how they're doing, or they're being, like, harsh with me and aggressive, and it's just a way of slowing down and, like, taking charge of the only thing I can take charge of, which is the space inside me and the space between me and God and maybe the culture of our home, but I can't do anything about what's happening inside the spicy one. And so just having a physical embodiment of, like, tap, tap, tap, tap. And they might be like, what are you doing? It's, like, none of their business what I'm doing. [00:33:15] Speaker B: Right. You worry about you. I'm calling myself down. [00:33:19] Speaker A: Yes. And you, child, are better off for it because, gosh, it feels good to rage. And I'm not raging. Like, there's a reason we yell our body Loves the sensation of rushing air through expulsion of breath. And so we got to find other ways to move our body that feel just as good to metabolize some of that rage. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, last time you were on you. So I have. My daughter has a big unicorn inflatable punching bag. So we talked about different ways that. [00:33:51] Speaker A: She could, like, do that. [00:33:52] Speaker B: She's allowed to yell and do her pillow, and then you even gave me, like, let her, like, rip up paper or do something that feels aggressive, but it's not actually harmful or damaging. [00:34:01] Speaker A: Yes. I call that in the book control, destruction. And there's a whole list of all the ways that together you can model. Oh, I just need. I need to get. I need to do something with this feeling. And, you know, with the spicy ones and knives, you're gonna have to do those things when they're not mad, because once they're kind of in meltdown or in the red zone, they. You can't teach them, like, hey, would you like to go try this thing? They're not gonna do it. Um, but did you guys ever try, like, you can also take ice and throw it hard against a wall, and it just feels delicious. [00:34:34] Speaker B: Oh, okay. We haven't done ice or. I'm thinking, even, like, outside on the sidewalk. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:39] Speaker B: Then I don't have to clean it up. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's easier. Well, we talked a little bit about compliance, especially, like, in the Christian world. What do you think is one of the main things that keeps parents from embracing their spicy kiddos and what they need and really being stuck in that, like, rigid compliance? This is the way we parent. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Well, are you asking me, why do you think Christians are so focused on compliance? Yeah. [00:35:05] Speaker B: Christians specifically. [00:35:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we are groomed to talk about obedience to God, which is interesting because, like, looking at Jesus is. I mean, New Testament. There's. It's more about relationship and hospitality and inclusiveness and caring for those that don't have enough, you know, but it's. There's not a lot of, like, you will obey. Right. So to me, that's kind of a masculine way of running things. And I. I would hope that we can replace compliance with discipleship and. And know that we're raising future adults, not obedient robots. And Jesus was always questioning and turning over tables and calling people vipers if it. If it wasn't what it needed to be. And obedience to God sometimes means challenging human systems. And the way we've done it. And, you know, some people interpreted the Bible to say that spanking was a righteous thing and, and that, you know, there's no child development expert on the face of the earth that's going to say, yes, violence towards kids is great. And let me tell you the steps. So the church has kind of gotten its own way a lot. Like, I love just thinking about if Jesus is the shepherd, did the shepherd beat the sheep? Never. That staff was used. Follow me. Here we go. And to ward off predators. Yeah, yeah. And what's beautiful is these spicy ones are the ones changing the world and, and standing up. They're so justice focused that we, we just know that collaboration, like you, if you get compliance from a kid, it kind of happens in one of two ways. Either they push everything down, and I'm talking about a strong willed, fiery, explosive kid. Either they push everything down and then later they're going to bring it up, or you create a power struggle where there didn't need to be one. So we want to go with cooperation and teamwork and harnessing their inner leader when we can. And it takes a lot more work. I mean, there's so much thinking in this. But I do believe, like you see it all over this rash of adult children choosing to be distanced from their parents, kind of this idea that, like, you know what, I've, I've tried and tried with you, adult parent, but there's no repair. There's no taking, acknowledging the harm that happened as I was growing up. And now we're going to be estranged. And the person that's going to most likely do that is the spicy one. So you might get your way through fear or, or, you know, power over, but it doesn't last long. And if you, if you want that kid to be coming home and over Thanksgiving when they're 25, and if you want to have a lifelong influence on them, you've got to stop pushing for control and compliance and instead push for collaboration and connection. And that's how you have a say in their life, is when they feel so connected to you and safe with you. Yeah. [00:38:26] Speaker B: I did a commencement speech for high school graduation last year, and that was one of the things that I said to the parents. I was like, hey, you want them to come home? So you need to learn now in this weird transition of like letting them go into the world but also wanting to protect them. You have to find the balance where you allow them to go out, trust all that you've, you know, taught them to do. And, but you have to continue supporting them, continue teaching them, but in a way that allows them still the freedom and permission to be who they're becoming because they're figuring out who they're becoming, especially at that age. Or. Or you're. They're not going to come home. And so it's like, it is this. We have to think long term. Right. Even talking about stuffing, like, down emotions, the damage, you might not see it for decades, like it. But if it continually happens or we're teaching kids, you have to push it down. You have to push it down. You're not allowed to have these feelings. You're not allowed to say these things. After 20 years of pushing everything down, then to your point, in adulthood, they're going to be like, now that I have the choice, I'm done with that. [00:39:34] Speaker A: Like, no more. Yeah. I grew up with being told a lot, you're so sensitive. And now, like, I gravitate towards people who love that about me who are like, oh, I need some Mary time. Or, you know, like, you. You can't. You got to stop fighting who you wish your child was and get really clear on the beauty of who they are. Yeah. And that is a lot of work for folks that there's a grieving process. Right. When you had this idea that it would be a certain way with your child, and then they come out and they're not like that. And they're not. They're not willing to be like that. I do just want to say there's some grief there. [00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's very honest. And I'm sure you just gave someone permission to kind of even just think that thought or acknowledge that thought, you know, in their own minds. I love too, that you use the word discipleship when you were talking about even just with our children, because I think it completely changes the way that we approach what we want them to learn. If I'm thinking I just have to instill a bunch of rules, you know, and make my kids, like, do X, Y and Z. I'm going to be focused in one lane versus if I think discipleship, what that tells me at least is I want to help them become someone that looks more like Jesus. I want to help them become the best version of who God created them to be. And I'm going to do two very different things. You know, if I want them to be compliant versus I want them to grow and develop into who they are. Like, discipleship to me, just has a very different picture. [00:41:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautifully said. [00:41:13] Speaker B: Well, we talked about punishment a little bit, Mary. And so I want to know for the People that are listening, they're like, okay, you said don't punish our kids, but how do we get them to obey? Because sometimes we do actually need them to do what we're asking them to do. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Right? [00:41:29] Speaker B: So if not punishment, what do we do? [00:41:32] Speaker A: Okay, well, here's a few things. One is, and there's a bunch of postures in the book and specific techniques like the do over and the 2 by 2 by 2 by 2. But in general, connection over correction always and connection before correction. Okay, start with let me come in and, and that might be in it. In an instance where something's going wrong, you want to come in and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on? Do you need some help? What are you working on there? Or it's in general, in the day, you want to make sure that you have connected. You spend a little bit of one on one time so that later when you have a correction, it's warranted. It's like that Gottman 5 to 1 ratio that they talk about where they saw that marriages that lasted had five positive interactions to every one negative interaction. And, and marriages that were in trouble or led to divorce, that ratio was off. And we need to do the same. We need to make sure that we are spending a lot more time connecting than we are correcting. And we've all gotten into that like, oh my gosh, I realize with my tween all I've done has been like, hey, don't forget your thing. You need to get this. No, we're not going to do that. You know, if that's your whole day, then of course it's really hard to influence this kid because you're spending so much time on correction. So maybe pick the one thing you're working on and let the other things go for a bit as you work on connection and connection really happens one on one. Can you make some having some one on one time that they can look forward to and they know it's going to happen, it's on the calendar and you talk about it leading up to it. And I'm talking about like 45 minutes of you, just the two of you being together. And sometimes if you have a big family, maybe that's like on Tuesdays this one stays up till 8 and, and on Wednesdays this one does find a way to have regular one on one time because that's when real relationship and intimacy happens. We've all been part of a girls group where it's always as a group and you don't actually feel comfortable with one of the people so get that one on one time connect before you correct give them agency within your boundaries. So you might with a with a strong willed kid naming like we need to do this how do you suggest we get there or how would you like to or what do you want to bring or what's the you know get them in on the planning and they will be so much more sold in for the boundary and then they want to hear the why they are not a because I said so when you hear yourself saying that you just tired go take a nap right and it is it's like they negotiate and they want to know why and they talk so much right so breathe and and you can even keep a list like that's a great question and they want to know why and you need to know why so know your because if and this came from a somebody who used to coach me when my kids were foreign to Carolyn Gatsky I think it was but knowing you're because I'm I'm setting this limit or I am requiring this of you because know it in your head before you say it because sometimes we're just like oh don't do that or we always do this and it's like have you really thought through it because with a spicy one you're going to have need to have less we have to do this they still love the structure and they need it and they need to know what the fan so the more you can sort of put those in writing and repeat them but don't have a hundred rules for every situation don't micromanage this kid also let natural consequences teach them when safe a natural consequences and your thing Kristen is like oh I would love to have brought that lunch to you but I had meetings all day and then you have to deal with your own self that's like am I a bad mom? Why didn't I could have taken in I let my child suffer no you're thinking about the long term implications that they this kid is an experiential learner and you can tell them hey it wouldn't feel good to go without a lunch all day until you're blue in the face. But they might have to experience it and go oh wow I hated that day. I now feel this profound need to get you know to fix this problem. So there's that there's also that just a remembering that obedience or compliance or any of those things we kind of want flow from trust in the long term not fear. Yeah and oh yeah so work on building trust with each other. [00:46:00] Speaker B: I love the idea of. Of knowing your. [00:46:02] Speaker A: Because. [00:46:03] Speaker B: Because when I was teaching kindergarten, I remember one. One day, you know, my kids were playing with Play doh and one of the other teachers walked in while I was fussing at two of them for, like, not mixing the colors together. Because that's just, you know, that's a thing. Right. And she sat me and she was like, hey, why? And I was like, what do you mean, why? She was like, why can't they mix the Play DOH colors together? And I was like, because the orange goes in the orange and the blue. And I, like, could not come up with a reason. And that moment has stuck with me of sometimes the things that we just naturally go, hey, stop. Don't do this, stop that. Da, da, da, da. [00:46:41] Speaker A: Are. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Because that's what we have heard or that's what we have been kind of, like, told and we're parroting, but it doesn't actually matter. And I think if we can recognize the things that don't actually matter to us, that helps at least me as a parent to not feel like I'm nagging, like you said, to not have all the, like, constant redirections. Because if I can't think of a good reason and there's not a legitimate. Because then maybe it's just that it's getting on my nerves or I'm annoyed and I can let it go and not feel like I'm constantly harping on stuff that in the long term doesn't actually matter. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And like, being gentle with yourself, because if you have a need for order and a sense of control and peace, having a spicy one is really hard. [00:47:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:28] Speaker A: And, like, the messiness of it, like, it's not logical. And so it's a lot. Yeah. [00:47:35] Speaker B: And finding too, like, I've tried to organize. I've tried all the organizations for laundry, for all the things, and eventually what we came up with, because it would make me crazy when I go in and organize and find a system. And then she couldn't keep it up. So I. I've tried every. Small laundry baskets, big laundry baskets. I was like, what's going to be the right solution for you now? The solution that's made us both happy is we open her closet door and she just throws her clothes in there on the floor. And then we close the door and there's no basket. [00:48:08] Speaker A: And I just. [00:48:10] Speaker B: There's no place that it's supposed to be now that it's not, you know, And I'm like, you'll Figure out a way to get it down to the laundry room. Like, yep, I believe in you, you know, Mary, what do we do if we're, if we're like with you? Right. We're trying to parent differently and do all the things, but our co parent maybe gets really agitated and triggered by the spicy one. How do we navigate that? [00:48:30] Speaker A: Speaking of co parents, my dude just came in. So this happens a lot where one parent, and it's usually the mom is like ready to go and sold out for a more egalitarian, positive, conscious parenting. And the spouse is like, what the hell's happening here? And one thing is to give your spouse as much grace as you're giving your kid. Because likely if you're trying to do this sort of gentle esque parenting or respectful parenting, you need to give that same patience that you have with your child to your spouse because it's hard sometimes. I'm like, I will do anything for my kids. But this grown man is adult. Yeah. And he wants that tenderness too. I'm just going to speak like in he, she. Even though of course there's couples that come in all configurations. But it tends to be the man that struggles with the, the need for less hierarchy and harshness to get a child to raise them up right. So to speak. So one thing is also have the conversation with them away from the crisis moment and out of ear of the child. Because I think there's a pre, a leaning towards feeling humiliated when you're being sort of chastised or taught in front of your child. So don't have that in front of them. Share what you're learning and what you're working on and ask your spouse to hold you accountable. Like, you know, I'm trying to not talk to my child over computer screen. And so I want you to watch me and if you see me, because I want to close the computer screen and turn to them. That's just something I'm working on, honey. Would you hold me accountable? So there's power in that, like just the humility of asking them to keep you accountable. And then I want to back up. If you have a spouse, it's like, yeah, none of that's gonna work. Just know that when one person in a family system changes, when one person starts moving towards more respectful, non violent communication, the whole family shifts. They have to because roles are changing and a lot of our husbands are being sort of healed by the environment we're creating in our family. Because the reason they're, they're sort of, they didn't grow up with this, this tenderness. And so they're experiencing it for the first time. And we're sort of part of their healing process too. And I'm sorry, it's all on you, listener. That you're the one doing it, but that is, you're the one doing it. Yeah. And so allow for that. Sometimes you become the buffer until they're ready. Obviously, we're not going to allow anything that's abusive or. And sometimes it's, it's deciding, like, hey, can we have a tap out thing? Sometimes I, I see you getting overwhelmed emotionally. Can we tap out? And I come in like talking about it ahead of time just like you would a spicy one. Oh, and also naming the shared goal, like, hey, we both want this child to become a functioning adult. We both want this child to learn how to care for community. We both want them to do their chores. I think we have a different approach. I also last thing, like naming who's in charge of what. Like, honey, are you willing to read parenting? Are you going to read parenting a spicy one with me and we talk about it and then we're co parenting? Or do you want me to take lead on doing the education to understand how to parent this child best? If so, then I need you to let me take lead and I lead you to trust. So it's sort of like, let's name, like, who's doing the learning. And if you're still parenting the way you were parented in the 80s and you haven't read anything about it, maybe you shouldn't be the one deciding how we're going to do it. [00:52:31] Speaker B: Oh, that's good. [00:52:32] Speaker A: That's good. [00:52:32] Speaker B: I mean, expectations, right? Come in with the same expectations. [00:52:36] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Well, Mary, last question for you because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can the people listening, maybe especially in the realm of parenting, how can they become the church to the people or maybe the spicy ones around them? [00:52:50] Speaker A: Stop judging the mom with the out of control melting down kid. Send her like quiet, reverent love and support. If you have a girlfriend, offer help without fixing or advice giving, just mirror back what you're hearing. That does sound hard. I see you working hard at it. And then just create spaces where people can be imperfect and allow people to be in process and. But hold that highest good for them. Like, we can do this with our kid. We can do this with our friend. Is like, I know this is, this is who you are at your best. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna echo that back and mirror that back and believe in. In your. Your good intention. I'm gonna see what you do and I'm gonna wash the whole thing with the. With the belief that you have good intentions and you want what's best for me, for your child. Whoever we're talking about, I think holding that for people versus, like this, this place we find ourselves in the world right now where it's like, you're all bad, I'm all good. It's. We're much more in flux. Yeah. [00:54:07] Speaker B: Well, we're just. There's that extension of the compassion of Jesus again. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:17] Speaker B: I would love for you to share this episode with a parent, grandparent, youth pastor or teacher that, you know, it's an easy way to encourage them with the message of, hey, I see you doing a really good job with a really hard thing. And no one's ever been upset to hear that. Thanks so much for listening and until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around you.