Father Lizzie: God Didn’t Make us to Hate Us

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to becoming church. And if you're listening on episode drop day, Happy Easter. I could think of no better guest to have on for this day of celebration than Father Lizzie McManus Dale from Jubilee Episcopalian Church in Austin, Texas. She's going to share with us the joy that comes from realizing how much God loves us and the freedom that we can live into by accepting who God has created us to be. Here's my conversation with Father Lizzie. Lizzy, welcome to the podcast. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, what a treasure and delight to be here with you. Thanks for having me. [00:00:49] Speaker B: I'm so excited. You and I have a lot of similarities, which we'll get into in a minute here. And so I've really been looking forward to this, to this conversation so much. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, me too. And I love we even. You can't really see in this angle, but I have rainbow bookshelves behind me too. I have woven as part of the rain. It's like a perfect yellow to green transition book. Like, girl. The similarities are similaritying. Perfect. Yes. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Woven. I've had Meredith on the podcast. She's actually a good friend of mine, and we give woven out, like, as gifts now. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, wow. I. I genuinely did not know that. And I love her, so. What an incredible. Oh, my gosh. What a lovely thing to know. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Wow. Yes. One of those, like, down to earth people that when you meet them, you're like, oh, you're even more chill in person than, like, you seem online, you know? [00:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, what a gift. [00:01:39] Speaker B: She's great. She's the best. Well, I want to talk. First of all, like I said, I alluded to our similarities, so I would say that neither of us ne really have what you would call, like, a classic aesthetic when it comes to ministers. So people that are, to me, like, they know, tell people that are listening about what. How you would call your style. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Okay, so, Claire, point of clarification. You mean like, aesthetic style? [00:02:09] Speaker B: Yes. Like, okay, if people are going to scroll your feed, which I have done so many times just for the aesthetic, like, I love it. What would they. What would they find? [00:02:19] Speaker A: They would find an Episcopal priest who's trying to be Dolly Parton. [00:02:24] Speaker B: I almost just put out my coffee. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Very, you know, I, I am a natural blonde, but, but, but at this phase of life, is. Is less natural. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Feel that. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Listen, I, I love the classic glam style of, like, big hair, winged eyes, bold lips. But I also love. I'm not from Appalachia, but I am originally from North Carolina. Um, I've been living and working in Texas for seven, going on eight years now. So very much in the south, even. Even though I have lived all over the world. But I. I always carry with me those roots. And. And one of the things that I cherish about. I'm a huge Dolly Parton fan. Um, and she talks about this, actually, in her book behind the Seams, which is her book about, like, all of her clothes and her fashion throughout the years. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I have to read that. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Oh, it's great. And it's like a coffee table book, so it has, like, big, gorgeous photos. Oh, it's. It's, like, worth every penny. That is not hashtag sponsored. I would die. [00:03:30] Speaker B: I just had to write it down so I can buy it. Thank you, Dolly. And, oh, my God. [00:03:35] Speaker A: Oh, my God. She's the best. Well, she talks about in that book, growing up how she would, like, make her own makeup out of pokeberries, which grow in the Smoky Mountains, and they're just. I mean, they're berries, so she would, like, crush them up to make blush and lipstick. And. And she always had. I mean, obviously now she is a very wealthy and savvy businesswoman, but she always had this, like, real scrappy, like, how she, you know, made herself this beautiful. I mean, she already is a beautiful person, but how she would create an aesthetic out of very minimal supplies. And she also talks about in a lot of different places, but particularly around the press tour, around her Backwoods Barbie album that, you know, growing up, the tramp in town was the person she admired the most. And her family would be like, well, that woman looks like trash. And she'd be like, well, when I grow up, I want to look like that. I want to look like trash. And I just love that. Like, bold. There's, like, something genuinely, like, I'm not being. It's. It's. It's. This is sincere for me. There's something, like, very theological and beautiful to me of, like, reclaiming the thing that is so cast off, Old things being made new, the thing that has been discarded as being seen as beautiful. Seeing beauty in and possibility in things that others might overlook. Like, I don't think a lot of people look at pokeberry bushes and say, yes, my next lip color. Um, and so I genuinely just admire that in her and have always been a, like, thrift store girly, plus, like, you know, some big, bold color. It's just. It's just who I've always been. That's great. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Well, there is something holy to, I think, having the Confidence to know, like, this is how God made me. [00:05:21] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:21] Speaker B: And I'm going to live confidently in this. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Regardless of if other people say it's trash or not appropriate for the pulpit or whatever. I think that there's. It's not. Not just like a rebellious resistance, which. There's a little bit of that too. [00:05:36] Speaker A: But of course, absolutely. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Hey, God made me like this, and I'm not going to, you know, shroud it with things that don't feel like they fit me. [00:05:44] Speaker A: Right, right, right. I think particularly in my tradition, I think there are a lot of unspoken. And I experienced very loudly spoken expectations. I was told in my ordination process to be more modest. And they didn't mean modest in terms of like hem length or whatever, because especially at that point, like, trying to kind of fly under the radar, they might be less colorful. Like, literally, they're like, you wear a lot of bright colors. You need to be less colorful if you're going to be in Christian leadership. And I just thought that was like, so misogynistic and frankly, really white supremacist, obviously, like, they, they weren't, you know, I'm not trying to say, like, being racist against me as a white person, but I just think that there is like a coding, a cultural coding to what we think of as serious, as a. As a person worthy of being taken seriously. And I examined those and, and that lacking. And I think that it is perfectly beautiful and appropriate for someone to never wear makeup, to never want to, you know, do up their hair, whatever, for them to be fully as they are before God, whether they're in Christian leadership or not. But I know that my full expression of myself, whether I'm in a full face of makeup or not, because I also, you know, make videos online and more to the point, preach and do pastoral care and lead without any kind of gussy enough that gives permission to other people to fully be themselves. Because it's me saying, this is who I am and I'm not sorry about it because God made me who I am. And God is equipping and utilizing my particular gifts in this space and time. So I'm not gonna hide my light under a bushel or bury my talents. It's almost like this in the Bible or something. [00:07:24] Speaker B: That's right. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:25] Speaker B: I didn't get modesty. I don't think I got a little bit of humility because I also have a loud personality. [00:07:30] Speaker A: Oh, same. I got that a lot. [00:07:32] Speaker B: The general vibe of like, just tone it down. When I was. [00:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah, you're so much. [00:07:36] Speaker B: You're too ministry. Yes. And what's funny is, tell me if this is the same for you. I felt like I had to. [00:07:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:42] Speaker B: I was a community. Like, I did not plan to be in ministry until God was like, guess what? Surprise. Everyone was surprised, including me. And so then it was trying to figure out, like how to take this person that I was still figuring out who I was into ministry with them. They wanted to tell me who I was. [00:07:59] Speaker A: Exactly, yes. [00:08:00] Speaker B: I was like, okay, well let me try to fit this. Like, if God really wants me to be a pastor, maybe he does want me to like calm all my ish down a little bit. And then now it's kind of not gone back like full swing. But I now I do what I want. I do what I want, I wear what I want, I can say what I want, you know. So do you feel like the same thing has happened for you that you were like, okay, maybe had to minimize, but now you're living fully into no restrictions? [00:08:29] Speaker A: Yes. Oh my God. So two thoughts. First of all, I love that you were a kindergarten teacher. I was an art teacher. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah, look at us. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I just, oh God. I love. I wasn't in a. I was in a studio. I was teaching classes. But I gosh, I just, oh, I just love that. And I think, yes, there to me, I'm still working this out, so maybe I'll work it out. Live time right now. But there is a tension between the genuine sanctification and humility that comes with any discernment process, with any calling. Right. I found that to be very true in my own calling into motherhood, my calling into friendship. Right. There's, there's a certain amount of like being called out and called in that any genuine relationship is going to draw out of you. Right. And I, I think that's especially heightened in church leadership because it's like, hi, there's been a lot of abuse. Like, we want to make sure that you're not some self aggrandizing egomaniac which, like, yeah, please church, like do that. But it's, I had to decouple that from the, the misogynistic casing and the like, what if this is like, okay, I genuinely do need to learn how to listen more deeply. I genuinely need to learn how I am perceived. And I acknowledge and accept that I can't control that, which frankly, I already had really done that my whole life before the ordination process. But, but acknowledge that there are times and places where I'm going to have to sort of like modulate the key a bit in order to enter the space. Like, I was a hospice chaplain for a year, right. Like I. And being a hospice chaplain, and I was in a continuous care retirement community. So I was with folks who. I wasn't like a hospice chaplain with kids. I was a hospice chaplain with folks who really, like, at youngest, 70, up through 100. [00:10:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:13] Speaker A: So that's a generation. Sure. That showing up with a bold red lip and a mini skirt, not. It's not going to work. Right. And I was fine with that. I was fine with being able to. To modulate the key and. And still authentically be myself and find ways to sartorially express myself, but also keep the main thing. The main thing. And. And I think that there is like such a. A funny. When you were courting an institution, the institution is courting you, but also you were in a genuine sanctification process with God that it's like kind of a lifelong parsing out of like, what. What is true of. Of like God calling and sort of, I don't know, peeling the layers away. And also the, like. Okay. I mean, my joke is that I. My mom actually bought it for me, a Talbot's blazer, which, this is no shade to Talbots. They got a lot of cute stuff, but it was like a. I was like, mom, I. When I wore to the last interview, I don't know if it went over well, which. It was like a 50 skirt and a cute little blouse, but, like, maybe it was just too much. And so she's like, I know what we're going to do. We're going to go to Talbot's. I was like, great. That is nice. White lady central. So I literally bought the, like, blazer for women twice my age because that was the age of most people who were interviewing me and like, through this process. And I wore that blazer for basically every interview. And let me tell you, I've hardly touched it since Sense. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:32] Speaker A: You know, because now I feel like I get to be the one in. In the position of authority to say, actually, you know, that cute, sweet little queer baby in a romper is dressing for the occasion. Right. And if you want other young people and young families. Church to come to your church, maybe you should, like, not expect them all to wear Talbot's blazers to be taken seriously. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Does that make sense? [00:11:54] Speaker B: Just like. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Is that align with what you were saying? [00:11:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. And I love that you brought up that there's a tension too, because I think part of it for me was learning I could have worn the same thing five years ago that I'm gonna wear today. [00:12:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:07] Speaker B: But five years ago I would have led with that. Where now I'm just like, no, I can lead with who I am and my calling and this just happens to be what I'm wearing. Like, I am gonna find the photo. Arch. I. When I came on, on staff, I've been with our church since launch 20 years ago. But I came on staff like seven or eight years ago and to start our second campus. And we launched on Easter was our first, like Sunday. I am going to find the photo and I'm going to send it to you. The amount of makeup that I had on my face, my eyebrows, I mean, I have a big forehead and I got big eyebrows already. They were double the size. My lips were like so over lined because I didn't realize it at the time, but I was like layering on more and more afraid I didn't know what I was doing. I was like, if I distract them with this. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:57] Speaker B: They'll never know, you know? [00:12:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly, I'm sure I have photos of the same thing. And I mean, like, I think about some of my earliest, like, videos that I was making on TikTok, partially because I was making them during lockdown and I was like, well, what am I going to do today? I'm gonna spend an hour watching this makeup tutorial that's like totally unhinged, right? Like, I'm gonna do some rainbow eyeshadow out to my ears. You know, it's like just painted over the. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like there's so many dynamics of power here, right? As it's like you're trying to assert your authority, you're also trying to believe your authority within yourself because you've been given some authority when you're in like, new ministry, Right. But you're also like, oh, my God. God, like, what am I gonna do with this? Like, this is terrifying. And then also at the same time, you're trying to trust that you are the real person who's called. I mean, like, there's a lot. And then, and then I think the gift of time, right, as you realize, like, oh, I can trust not only myself and not only God, but I can also trust the people who I'm called to serve. Like, I don't feel like we talk about that enough in ministry is that it's like, do you trust the people who you care for, who you're charged to care for, to like, also love you back. And, like, it's not the same. It's not a. Like, I don't know, it's not the same relationship that I have with my besties, but it is a relationship where there has to be deep trust both ways for the church to flourish. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Well, and I. I can see that. I mean, even in you. You, like, bedazzle your investments and things for service. What. I mean, I'm sure now your congregation, your people that have been with you accept you. But, like, what are. What have some of the feedback that you've gotten from that? [00:14:35] Speaker A: You know, it's. I. It's funny. I didn't really pause, so. So let me back up and tell the story to get into the question. So I'm a church planter. So I'm the founding planter of Jubilee Episcopal Church. And in the Episcopal Church, there certainly are church plants. But. But it is kind of. It is less common than it is in other expressions of Christian faith. So when you think of the Episcopal Church, you tend to think of, like, St. John the Divine in New York City or St. Bart's or like, like, big, established, old, like, looks like a big Catholic cathedral. And then you're like, wait a minute. That's a cool queer lady up there with some blue hair. Very institutional, very established. And there's, like, all sorts of historical reasons for that. So you don't typically think of, like, strip mall church, but I am in a strip mall church. Okay. So. So jubilee started when the diocese called me, and basically, it's not a grant, but, like, gave me a grant to plant a community, which was incredible. And we started meeting in my living room and actually had to start really fast because I'd been. The sort of math I'd been given was like, hey, you have a year to identify 12 households to WHO. Who dream to build a new faith community. And at the end of those 12 months, you and those 12 households need to have launched. Need to be ready to launch once a week. Worship. That's sort of the metric you're aiming for. And I was like, great. My first day on the job, so my first day on payroll, I had 20, 25 texts, phone calls, emails, being like, hey, where's church this Sunday? We're so excited. And I was like, oh. And I had named my church after the extravagant harvest we find in Leviticus 25, the Jubilee year. So I probably should have expected God to show up with an extravagant harvest. I was unprepared. And so I was like, oh, my God, what are we gonna do? So we kind of scrambled and. And, like, got. Literally. I was also moving at the time, so this is nuts. We, like, moved into a new place on a Monday, and by the following Sunday, we were having worship in my living room because I was like, this energy is so rich. And. And we had 17, 18 people show up the first Sunday, and it just kept growing, which, like, could not fit in my living room. Right. So. So. So we. I was sprinting to keep up with God and with this community and this dream. And so eventually we. We. I was like, we need to find a space. And we popped up for. In a restaurant for a while. And then we. Thanks be to God and the Diocese of Texas. We signed a lease in a strip mall where on the one side we have a dentist office, and on the other side we have a martial arts studio. And across the street there's Michelin Star barbecue and a poker palace. So God's children. There's a Dairy Queen. It's great. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Perfect. [00:17:18] Speaker A: So the sort of joke is like, where you roll up in a strip mall and you walk in and it's like Catholic maximalism in that we have incense and we wear the. The vestments are called chasubles. So it's like the one woven garment that represents the one woven garment that Jesus had that the soldiers, they decide not to tear, but they cast lots for. Like, there's all sorts of symbolism in all the clothing we wear. The white robes are called albs, and those are baptismal garments. Anyway, so. So I think that context helps because while we had some grant money, the grant money was basically enough to cover the lease and my salary. So it's not like we had a ton of money. And the Episcopal Church, like, we are a church that vestments and all the sort of stuff, the material stuff of worship is, like, very necessary. Right. And so I was like, well, we're gonna have to just make do. So we got a bunch of donated vestments from churches that had closed. My mom is a Methodist pastor, so she had given me some of her stuff. I had some stuff that I brought in. But. But we were really working with, you know, pokeberries to sort of call back earlier. Right. We were. We were working with what we had. And also, most vestments are not made for a woman who's 5, 3 and 3 quarters on her best day. Right. Like, they're huge stuff for tall dudes. Yeah. So. So with all of the secondhand stuff, fast forward to it's coming up on our first feast day. So in the Episcopal Church, we're really big on. You know, we do like, we do all the things, Christmas, Easter, all that. But. But we also. Every church is named for like a. Or a holiday. And. And you just do that up really big and you call it your feast day. So if you were at a church called like St Stephen's the Feast of St Stephen, you do up really big. So Jubilee doesn't have a saint. So I was like, what's our feast day going to be? And I was like, well, I think the third Sunday in Advent is traditionally Joy Sunday. In Latin, it's called gaudete, which I just love because that's the same root of the word gaudy. I was like, this is us. And it's also the Sunday. Traditionally you light a pink candle, so you wear pink. Pink vestments. [00:19:17] Speaker B: Let's go. [00:19:18] Speaker A: Yep. And listen, I don't have a pink vestment, but I do have this chas bowl that my mother had given me that was this cream color that had a kind of like crooked Cairo symbol on it, which is like the P with the X on it. Yeah. So I was like, what if I made a pink chasuble? And I. My grandmother taught me. Both my grandmothers taught me to sew. My mother's mother especially. So. And I had taken some sewing classes and I had been an art teacher, so I had had some skills, but I didn't have, like, master seamstress working in a, you know, high end London shop making chasubles for a thousand dollars, which is a real thing. And like, artists deserve to be paid, don't get me wrong. But like, yes, I was like, starting. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:01] Speaker A: I was just starting and I was like, I think. I think I can find 25 to 50 in my budget to do this. So that's what I was working with. And so I was like, I'm gonna buy me a bottle of rit dye, which I did. And I dyed the chasuble pink. And I found this gorgeous patch online that was a virgin Guadalupe. So my aunt who died was very dear to me and had a huge, extensive craft room. And honestly, in my grief for a long time, I was like, I can't. Like, whatever I make with this has to be perfect or has to be incredible or really, like, meaningful. Like, I can't just. Yeah, right, right. Like, I can't just use her glue sticks for something silly. [00:20:40] Speaker B: But. [00:20:41] Speaker A: But she had all these sequins, all these rhinestones and. Which I had never used. I never used them, though. Like, I love, you know, a sequin rhinestone moment. I had never Made anything with them. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Okay. [00:20:52] Speaker A: And I thought of all the things my Aunt Stacy would love, and she was Episcopalian. I feel like she would love me incorporating this in a vestment. Something that is worn as we worship God to help lead people in a joyful worship. Something that she's. She's my aunt on my father's side. But this is already a garment that I'm repurposing something in my family. Like, there's already so much story to it. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:19] Speaker A: And I was like, what if I just try this out? And so I started. I didn't really know that my sort of creative process is, like, I kind of have a big idea, and then I kind of let the materials talk to me as I make it. And it's very prayerful for me. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Artist. Yes. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Thank you. I mean, like, truly, I like. I listen to, like, today music. Like, I really like. I put on music that really helps me pray. And it's often very quiet and very late at night because I do this after my children are asleep and after I'm done with my work for the day. And so it's a genuinely, like, worshipful experience for me. And it is genuinely worshipful for me to make a pink chasuble with a bunch of beautiful blue sequins and Our lady of Guadalupe. And. And I started posting about this online, and the deadline was, like, rapidly coming because I had started this project, and I had, like, basically, like, 10 days to get it done. And so I ended up calling my mom and my best friend Amy, and they came and helped me finish it. And it's these sweet videos. They really took off. And. And there were definitely some. Some naysayers. I mean, make no mistake. But. But I heart, like, what. I actually. I didn't share the full story of, like, my Aunt Stacy, sequins and all that, but I. I really shared that, like, this is a prayerful offering, and it is something I'm making for my community. And there's, like, very powerful, I think, intention and saying, like, God gives us joy. Yeah, right. Like, the. I have a chapter in my book called the Spiritual Discipline of Joy. And I really think joy is believing that God is good and at work even when we don't feel happy. Joy is not the same thing as happiness. And so. So that's kind of the first, like, bedazzled vestment that certainly had the most, like, story to it. And it's something that I've continued to explore and make, in part because that's the money we got, you know, and. And to be real with you. Like, there's a really fabulous textile artist. Her name is Juliet Heming Gray. And I have one of her stoles that I've bought. And when I. When it arrived, I was like, there's a few little rhinestones on here. Just, like, little tiny, you know, here and there for a little sparkle. So I'm certainly not the person ever to do that. But I think the gift of it is one, it shows. Like, there's a lot of Episcopal vestments or Catholic vestments or whatever that are beautiful, but also are clearly an aesthetic of days gone by. Right. And they're often made with very expensive, you know, silk brocade, jacquard, like, fabrics. And so it's like, well, we don't have the money like that as a church right now. And I think it's a gorgeous thing to offer our gifts to God and offer our best art to God. And our best art to God happens to be a box of sequins that my aunt who died far too soon, left for me. So that's. That's how they started. And so I think when I share that story, people tend to be a little bit disarmed when they come at me. How dare you? [00:24:13] Speaker B: But I think that can apply to so many things. Like, I love that you were like, you know, I'm going to do this to my investments and continue to, even for people listening that are like, I would never be caught with a Bedazzler, which, if anybody has an extra bedazzler, send it to me, because I've never seen a Bedazzler I didn't like. You know, truly, I think it. Like, you mentioned earlier, it gives people permission to go, hey, whatever. The thing is that you're waiting on of like, oh, I can't do this because I don't have the right outfit. Or, I can't do this. [00:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:44] Speaker B: I don't have the right tools. Or I can't do this because I don't have the perfectly right. Whatever. Just. I don't think God cares so much about that as he does your willingness. Willingness to just say, all right, God, you called me to this thing, so I'm gonna show up with what I've got. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:58] Speaker B: And he's gonna be okay with it. [00:25:01] Speaker A: And make something beautiful out of it. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:25:03] Speaker A: More beautiful than you could have imagined. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Yes. Well, before we jump into your book, which we're gonna do in just a second, the last thing that I want you to kind of explain and set up for. I know you've Explained this. But for new fans of yours that are truly going to be coming to you after this, this conversation, tell us why you go by Father Lizzy as the victor of the church. [00:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm happy to. So in the Episcopal Church, folks call their clergy all different kinds of things. So. And it kind of varies by region. Now, being in Texas, which is a pretty Catholic area, this would also be true. This is true. Like in New York or, you know, in parts of the Northeast, where it's also a heavily Catholic area, it is not uncommon for folks to call their clergy father name or mother name. Right. Because we have folks of all genders. My formal title, you know, is the Reverend Lizzie McManus Dale. So, yes. And I just want to stay say, this is very important to me. I'm not offended if people call me Reverend or mother or just Lizzie. Just Lizzie is just fine. The only time I ever insist on my title is when I'm in a mixed company and there's a bunch of male clergy who are getting reverend and fathered, and I'm getting just lizzied. And that's when I will speak up and be. [00:26:17] Speaker B: I 100 understand that. [00:26:19] Speaker A: That. Yeah, yeah, I know you do. I, like, every clergy woman does, so. So that's not an uncommon thing. It's also, like, there's plenty of Episcopal priests I know who go by pastor or preacher or reverend, whatever. But in. In my context, especially in Texas, most clergy go by father or mother. And as I shared earlier, my mom is a Methodist pastor, and the Methodist Church, they don't do father, mother. They usually do pastor or preacher. You know, something like, you know, Pastor Hannah is always what she's used or just Hannah. And so I'm. I'm that as the daughter of a clergy woman, because it was already hard enough sharing my mom with the church. Yeah. And if they had all also called her mom, calling her mother Hannah, I would have been so pissed. Like, are you kidding? I would have been so pissed. And, like, I want to be careful with this because this is not a commentary. Like, I have a lot of friends who are moms who go by like, mother, mother Lizzie, or mother, whatever. And. And I think that's beautiful, and I think there's ways that they can navigate it, but I just have too much of my own little chip on my shoulder. And I also, at the same time, so. So, I mean, the big. The biggest and deepest reason is I'm like, I'm a PK before I'm a priest, you know, and a daughter before I was ever a mother. But I think the other thing is there's this fabulous book by Sarah Coakley called God, Sexuality, and the Self, where she explores a lot of things. But one of the chapters, she really gets into this language, this etymology of calling God Father, and she's like, can feminists call God Father without it being, like, patriarchal? Like, because there's a lot great scholars who've said we should just reject male language altogether. Mary Daly is my, like, problematic fave, and Sarah Coakley makes the case. And I read this book in divinity school when I was deep. It's funny, I was in divinity school before I figured out I was called to be a priest. A whole story. But. But I read this chapter when I was, like, really wrestling with, in particular, the Episcopal Church, where we're very liturgically driven. So, like, you. [00:28:19] Speaker B: You. [00:28:19] Speaker A: You kind of have, like, one template and, like, five options for how you say each thing in the template. But it. But it's all still pretty steeped in Father, Son, Holy Spirit. [00:28:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:28] Speaker A: There's not a lot of, like, liturgical creativity, shall we say. [00:28:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:32] Speaker A: As compared to other traditions. And anyway, so in this chapter, she says not only can feminists call God Father and see this as a term for God that is not bound in being, like an angry white dude in the sky, but as a relationship and as a name for God that is bigger and beyond gender. And in fact, only a truly, like, feminist, gender unbound understanding of God can actually fully call Godfather. So, in fact, feminists must, like, she's not saying that's all we can use. That's exclusively. But she's like, no, no, no, don't give this up. Like, don't cede ground, basically. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:09] Speaker A: And that, like, rewired my brain chemistry. And I remember reading it, and it was like one of the little clicks in my journey of, like, accepting my call of, like, oh, when I'm. Or God willing, I'm. I'm gonna be Father Lizzie, because I as this, like, very high femme, you know, Dolly Parton wannabe, people don't look at me and, like, clock alive, Father, but. [00:29:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:30] Speaker A: But I like that sort of gender invitation into that dissonance. And I will also say, like, people, I think, on the Internet don't necessarily. Like, people are real on the Internet. [00:29:42] Speaker B: But also weird on the Internet. Internet people are so weird. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Like, they'll say, oh, no one will ever call you that. And I'm like, honestly, like, swear to God, when I am out in Texas, like, I'm out at the grocery Store. And I'm in my collar because I'm popping in to get something right. Literally, on Ash Wednesday, I actually had to go in in my full cassette because there was a whole kerfuffle and, like, mix up with our child care. So I had to run and get some formula. And like, literally I had like 20 minutes. So I just, like, was in my full kit. It was ridiculous. I was like, I am not trying to make a seed. I just need to get formula. Um, but. But literally, people most often reach for Father because there's such a Catholic context, and they see the collar and they see me and they're like, thank you, Father. Like. And I'm always like, yeah, that's great. Yeah, perfect. Thank you. Yeah. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Oh, that's so great. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. Just for anybody who's ticking off and they're having little red flags of like, wait, what's happening with God and gender and whatever. Just. Just read a little bit where, you know, know, Jesus talks about God is like a mother hen, which is, yes, feminine. And Jesus talks about how God is like, you know, a lady baking bread and yeast and all that. So just, just everybody take a deep breath and just look. It's in there. [00:30:55] Speaker A: It is. It totally is. It's not some newfangled 21st century Dolly Parton wannabe thing. It's actually God doesn't have a human. [00:31:01] Speaker B: Body, so that's the whole thing. All right, well, your book is called God Didn't Make Us to hate us. 40 devotions to liberate youe Faith From Fear and Reconnect With Joy. And second that I saw this title, I was, like, moved emotionally, just the idea that God didn't make us to hate us. I was like this. Everyone needs to read this. I didn't even know what it was about yet. And I was like, everyone needs to read this book. So what did you see? You're. You're welcome. What were you seeing in the faith space that made you think, like, people need help liberating and freeing their faith from this idea that God actually hates them? [00:31:40] Speaker A: Yes. So I saw two things. Well, really, I saw the same thing online and in person. And so I've shared a little bit about being a church planter. So forming a new community of faith. That's a new community, but an ancient faith for jubilee. And most folks who come to that church come out of high control religious spaces. So I would say it's an equal opportunity denomination. But, but, but we have maybe 10 to 20% of us have grown up or been Episcopalian for a while, but most everybody else, it's their first time in any kind of liturgical. Liturgical expression of faith. And they come with stories. And they come with stories of. Of being raised in churches and being told, because you're gay, you're fundamentally bad, because you're a person, you're a sinner, and you're fundamentally bad. Which, like, I do, in fact, believe we are all sinners. I just think we've had a really twisted understanding of what that means. I think there's a lot of. I don't. I don't just think I. I know. I hear these stories of folks who say, well, I always, like, felt, you know, when I was out for a walk or when I was, you know, speaking with friends, the, like, deep and abiding love of God. But then I would come to church and feel all this shame and feel suspect. I'd been taught to be suspicious of that inner voice inside of me that maybe it was the devil or maybe it was sin or maybe it was temptation. And so that created this big disconnect between religious faith practice and prayer and connection to God. Right. And so I saw all of these things happening pastorally. But I also. So when I was ordained in 2020, I started making goofy little videos online, twirling around in my chas bowls that I bedazzled. Eventually. I didn't actually. The bedazzling didn't come till several years in, but the point is, I. They kind of took off. You know, it was 2020. It was like a sort of zeitgeist moment, I think, on TikTok in particular. And so I started getting thousands and thousands and thousands of comments and questions that included a lot of, like, very vitriolic, cruel nonsense. You know, I mean, the whole spectrum of, you should kill yourself, and you're leading people to hell. Like, two. Yeah. I mean, yeah, two. Like, very genuinely, like, oh, my God, I did not know this existed. I would feel safe in this church. I have survived abuse in the church, but I want to come to your church. Or, you know, I'm just like. Just this. This whole spectrum. And. And in that, I started getting a lot of questions of, like, wait a minute, how is this possible? Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Particularly when I would make videos talking about scripture and talking about Christian history and theology, they're like, oh, you aren't just, like, making this up. Like, you know, I was like, yeah, plot twist. I read the Bible literally every day. [00:34:18] Speaker B: It's actually in there yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:21] Speaker A: And actually plot twist. Christian history is long and vast and Diverse. We've got 2000 years here. Team women did not just pop up in the 70s and decide to be leaders. Like we've actually been leaders the whole time and been struggling with patriarchy for most of it also. So, so I started sharing all this and people be like, well, what's a resource where I can learn? And I'd be like, well you know, you could have this tome, this is a great book. But like you could have this grad school tome, this textbook that I read to explain it. Like because there were some resources out there, but there weren't a ton of resources that fit the sort of multiple that checked all the boxes of accessible, readable, readable in small bite sized pieces, readable in a prayerful way. Like not just teaching us about God but, but resources to help us know God and walk with God, right? Because there is like, I love reading. This is a commentary on the Gospel of Luke. This helps me know and talk to God more. But, but it's, it kind of takes some entry to get in there, you know, I, I, I, I, it's not a, like here's an invitation to pray, here's a, here's something that you might be wrestling with and let's like pray about that together and here's some things for you to think about. So, so I didn't see things that, that ticked those boxes of, of that I think the devotional genre is like really good at. And also the thing that I think is, is lacking writ large in the devotional genre is liberation theology, robust orthodox tradition. So a true, ancient, historically grounded but thoughtful and curious and compassionate approach to how God has been at work this whole time. So it's like I take the Bible seriously and I also take modern life seriously and so how can we speak to these things? And so from all of that I knew I wanted to write a devotional. I wanted to write something that was going to be accessible to the 18 year old who's heard their whole life that they're going to go to hell and is like, I don't want to give up on God, I don't want to give up on faith and I also don't want to give up on grandma who loves me and is like, yeah, the preacher says that honey, but I'm here with you. But I also want to figure out like, okay, but what does the Bible say, right? Like, and I also wanted to write something for the mom who's in the throes of postpartum depression and is like, I was not emotionally prepared for how becoming a mother was going to completely rock my world and how there's this duality of, like, self sacrifice to the point of not existing anymore. And also girl boss your way through. It's like. Like there's so many mixed messages I think we are facing as like, real people really trying to wrestle with God and wrestle with faith and, like, also find joy and peace and liberation in that. And so that's where this book came from. And the thread that I saw connecting every sort of bad take, theology, bargain bin take, from racism and misogyny to God is just barely containing God's wrath. Right. Like, which is not actually an ancient practice or doctrine. This all seemed to be threaded together for me on this. This concept that God actually hated us and. And that God made us out of some vindictive, cruel, you know, Voltaire, master clockmaker, kind of like, like, because God was bored and wanted to punish us because God is a cruel God. Right. It's like, that's literally. That's not what the Bible says. That's not what Christian history says. Says. That's not what my own knowledge and life with God teaches me. And so I was like, how can I offer these things up? And so actually was in a conversation with my wonderful agent, Jonathan Merritt, where I was like, I just. It's just all this together. God didn't make you to hate you. So we played with the pronouns. A lot of it was. It was, God didn't make me. God didn't make you. But eventually we came to God didn't make us to hate us. 40 devotions to liberate your faith from fear and reconnect with joy. [00:38:06] Speaker B: So well, it is so lovely. It's just as beautiful inside the words as it is on the outside side. So thank you. Thank you for writing this. And I want to go back to something that you said that I think a lot of people are going to hit on. You talked about people basically being taught to distrust their, like, inner voice. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:26] Speaker B: And I. I think so many people would resonate with that. In my mind, I'm like, I know for me personally, like, we talked about God and Jesus and we never talked about the Holy Ghost. It was just kind of like, it's kind of he here. I think I know, at least for me, that was a big connection of I didn't trust my inner voice because again, right. As people were sinful, we were bad, all of this stuff. Do you think this devotion helps people Lizzy, to. To understand better, like, how Holy Spirit talks to them and moves through them and to kind of unlearn and relearn being able to trust who that voice is that speaking to them. [00:39:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I certainly hope so. I. I wouldn't say that it's a. Like, how to guide sort of in an explicit way, but very much in the. In the sauce, so to speak. Right. Like, yeah. [00:39:17] Speaker B: As you're going through it. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Like, when you're making a good sauce, you. You put a lot of herbs in there, and. And if it tastes good at the end, you're not like, yes, I taste the garlic and the. Like. Like. I mean, well, maybe garlic's pretty good, but, you know. You know, you can't parse out the parsley from the rosemary and all that. [00:39:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And so very much like an essential ingredient for me, me in this book is discernment and equipping people with the ability to. To ask questions, but not just stay in the place where the question is hanging. Because I think there's a lot of, like, chatter and really helpful conversation happening around deconstruction and sort of unraveling toxic things. But I think a lot of that conversation still leaves people hanging because they're like, that's great. I'm glad that I can say that God's not an angry white man in the sky, but I still would like to know why God. God allowed me to have cancer. Right. I would. And I don't want to give up on God. So if I don't want to give up on God or the church, but I do want to give up on these toxic, you know, takes, like, what's left. And so what I try to do with each devotion is say, here's a scriptural story. Here's the way that, like, let's have a little context. It's like, use our brains, have some history, have some imagination, like, divine imagination with it. But really, I think the book actually is, like, helping us cultivate a divine imagination. Imagination of, like, how. How might I listen more deeply to what has happened and where God is to imagine with God where we might be going? [00:40:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I love a holy imagination. I love trying to, like, read the things that were not written, you know, on the pages of Scripture and in a story, again, not to change it, but to be, like, what else was going on there that just didn't happen to be written down so that we can apply it to our lives now? Like, where is God? I 100% believe you when you say that. Crafting and bedazzling is a holy experience because, yeah, I think that we can find God in anything. And God speaks to us through all kinds of things if only we're willing to hear, you know, God's voice there. So you said that part of the title is, you know, liberating from. From fear and reconnecting with joy. I think that joy is something that's so missing in the church. Our church got a poor Google review because we had balloons and, like, a party vibe to celebrate one Sunday day. I don't even remember what it was about. We just were like, this is who we are. There is so much joy in our church. Sometimes throws people off. You know, they're like, why is everyone so happy and smiley? And I'm like, because they genuinely want to be here. Like, they really do. But why do you think it is that joy is void in so many churches? And, like, when people think of going to church, they think of somber, not joy. [00:42:04] Speaker A: I think because we have forgotten that God's justice and God's joy are connected. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Oh, say more about that. [00:42:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So I actually preached on this recently on the prodigal Son. [00:42:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:18] Speaker A: And it is one of our phrases, our, like, cornerstone beliefs at jubilee. Jubilee is named for God's extravagant justice and joy in Leviticus 25. So the Jubilee year is a commandment that every 50 years, there's a complete and total rest from the land. So there's no planting, there's no harvesting food. You just live off of a harvest that God promises is going to get you through. So there's a real act of trust there. And like, I don't know about you, but I don't grow my own food. But can you imagine being like, you're not going to go out to eat, you're not going to go to the grocery store for a year, and what's in your pantry is going to be enough. [00:42:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:42:52] Speaker A: It's crazy. But. But that's. That's not. That's not the full sum of it. In fact, God also says, and you are going to make sure that everyone who doesn't have enough prepared, you feed them. Because my bounty is enough for everybody. And also everyone who's captive is going to be set free. All debts are released. Like, imagine if every 50 years, mortgages were gone, car payments gone, student loans gone. I mean, like the kind of complete, total reset that would offer. Yeah, it's unimaginable, but it also is like God's imagination. Right. And so. So we are named for a linking of God's justice. That is also God's joy because it gives God great joy to see the flourishing of all people. And it gives God great joy. I mean, Jesus says this. It is his good pleasure to give us the kingdom of God. And so we see that these things are deeply interconnected. And that also means pursuant to the prodigal son is. I was like, look, here's the thing. I really identify with the older brother. I'm an eldest daughter. I got big, big sister energy. And when the oldest brother is like, are you kidding me? You never once killed a goat for me and my friends. This fool ran off, said you were dead to him, dad. And now his back has barely gotten an apology out of his mouth before you put a ring on him and threw him apart. Are you kidding me? [00:44:07] Speaker B: Y. [00:44:08] Speaker A: But. And it is an injustice, but that is because God's justice is God's joy. And so it is not measured up by human metrics of crime and punishment. It just isn't. And so I think that in churches where there's a lot of happy clappiness, but there's not a lot of justice, it's because we've forgotten that these things are connected. But I think more deeply, at least in my own experience in churches where there's a lot of, like, we are here for justice, and we are here to be righteous, good, holy people. And we are also here to make sure that there is righteous goodness in the land. And maybe we're all showing up to protest, and we're doing our due diligence there, and we're all making sure we're recycling in the correct way, which, like, by the way, I cosign. Right. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Do those things. But. But those are not the sum total of what saves us. Those are not the sum total of what God asks. And the joy, like, if all of that justice seeking is meant to strive for joy for all people, then that joy has got to be a part of the process. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:10] Speaker A: And. And when the ends are not a part of the means, we have lost the plot. And I think that it's really vital for folks to understand that joy is not the same thing as. As, like, over consumption. It's not the same thing as always feeling happy, but it is having balloons in church just because. And it's also saying, like, it's our feast day, so we're going to all have pink donuts. No, that has no theological depth, except that God over and over and over is like, feast, do not be sad, Eat the fat, drink the sweet wine. Make sure there's enough food for people who don't have enough to eat, for the joy of the Lord is your strength. That's Nehemiah, chapter 8, verse 10. Like, yes, that matters. And I think that matters, especially in this day and age when we are so tempted into cynicism and despair and distrust of our neighbor. Because, like, the thing that will most quickly break down barriers is to feast together. And like, that's, that's what you do when you have cute little balloons at church, right? Yeah. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Live life to the full. Don't come in here bored and wishing you were anywhere else when you come to church and gather together. Like, truly, we should enjoy it. It should be fun. It should be good. You are clearly shaping the church as a leader already, the global church. But if you could change one thing, the global, or maybe specifically the American church, with just like, the snap of your fingers, what would you change? [00:46:29] Speaker A: I would want us to have more gentleness. That's why I titled my book God Didn't Make Us to Hate Us. One of the things Matthew Paul Turner, who endorsed the book, said is that he was like, this is just, this is a book of a pastor's heart, which I was so grateful for. And, um, I really, I am not someone. I am very tempted into anger. I'm tempted into anger at the world. I'm tempted into anger at political leaders. I'm tempted into anger at the complete failure of communities to be community. And I also, like, it's something I'm tempted to in my own life. You know, I mean, I talk a lot in the book about motherhood. It's not a mom book, but, like, I speak from my context and. Sure. And, and I speak a lot about the really difficult early days of, of, of my oldest daughter being born. And, and just the beauty, but also the like, overwhelm that I experienced with that. And, and in that time, you know, I mean, I just, I, I, I suddenly felt such incandescent joy at what humans could be and such rage at what was possible because, like, the Uvalde shooting happen, like the Sunday before I was supposed to go back to work. So I was like, yeah, Holy God. I mean, it's already hard enough to think about putting your kid in daycare. [00:47:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:59] Speaker A: But, like, I just had this rage. Like, like this is not just like, babies should not do this to other babies. Yeah. Yes. And so I think all of us have in the American church of any denomination or political perspective, like, whoever you voted for, I think this is a thing we all need A. A dose of gentleness, I think, self gentleness, self compassion. Because the way we talk to ourselves at our lowest is how we talk to others when we think lowly of them. And that is something we need to pay attention to. [00:48:35] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think it's easy to say, okay, well, when you hear that voice, does it sound like God? Does it sound like this is how God would talk to you? But unfortunately, I bet there are people listening who are like, no, yeah, God would tell me I'm an idiot. And so those are the people who need to read your book. Because I do think we need to unlearn some of this shaming language, especially when you talk about, you know, self compassion and being tender to who we are within ourselves. Because I think a lot of it was learned in the church of like, nope, you are a sinner. You should feel shame, you should feel guilt because it's behavior modification, but really it's just behavior modification. And yes, so much more sanctification can happen. Happen. [00:49:17] Speaker A: We. [00:49:17] Speaker B: We truly can become who God created us to be when we realize how much God loves us. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker B: And we live out of that place. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Of loving ourselves and the world around us. That's how true change happens. [00:49:30] Speaker A: Yes. And, and, and also get it, don't get it twisted, because God does, like, let us know when God is pissed. That's not because you said something rude to your kid, because you were overstimulated. God pours out God's wrath when there is genocide, like when there's is massive evil. And I think we've, we've really, we've taken a sort of portrait of God's justice and condemnation and applied it to the tiny human moments. Like, I have a chapter in my book called Sarah Laughed at God and God liked it. Because I think that's an example of a moment in scripture that I often heard where it was like, how dare Sarah laugh at God? Right? How dare she be so stupid and like, so untrusting and like condemning and like, God forbid women have joy. Right? Like, I mean, like, literally, that was all in the sauce. And, and I really hear that when she, When God says, is anything too marvelous for the Lord? [00:50:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:26] Speaker A: It's like, baby, I want nothing but good things for you. [00:50:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:31] Speaker A: You know, and that's such a. More tender and loving and kind of like a mom sort of ruffling her kid's hair, being like, you silly goose. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:50:40] Speaker A: I'm always going to be here for you, you know, And I just, I just think that, that, that if I could wish for anything. It would be self gentleness and gentleness for each other because I think we have really lost the plot with, with that. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Okay, well, last question for you and maybe you can just kind of expound on what you just said if you want to, or you can go a different direction. But because the podcast is called Becoming Church. Yeah. How can people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:51:09] Speaker A: I just love this question. Hi. I think it's this, it's this twofold thing of be nourished by going to church. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:19] Speaker A: You know, I. This is, this is something. It. Maybe it's my hottest day where I'm like, look you. I love that people live stream worship. I love that people watch our sermons online, etc, but you got to be there. You got to see it, you got to smell it, you got to taste it and you got to show up even when you're tired. And you got to break bread with your neighbors and your enemies and sometimes those are the same thing. [00:51:37] Speaker B: Uh huh. [00:51:38] Speaker A: You gotta break bread with a sweet, kooky old lady who always has something kind of unhinged to say. Like that's, she's, she, she's part of your sanctification too. Yeah. And so, so you got to be there. Like you really do. And, and now more than ever, it is a time to show up and be in community by receiving God's goodness in the sacraments and worship. But it is also the time for us to genuinely turn to our actual neighbor. Like, like this should not be such a hot question, but like, do you actually know the names of the people who live next door to you? [00:52:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:12] Speaker A: Do you talk to them? And I think some people do, but I think more and more people don't. And like, do you, when you are in the grocery store or wherever, right at the gas station, like do you take a moment to look someone in the eye and say, hey, how are you? And like actually connect with people and pay attention. Attention. That seems so small, but I, I promise you it's huge. And, and I think it's one of the first ways that we be church to each other is we actually see each other. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We recognize the humanity and the divinity of the person standing next to us both. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm gonna link up your Instagram so people can go see your pink boots and all of the other things. I will also link up the book and highly recommend that people check it out. It has been so lovely to chat with you today. [00:53:07] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, Kristen, thank you so much. This is such a joy and I just love your work in the world and I'm grateful to connect with another glittery, sparkly girl. Pastor. [00:53:22] Speaker B: I know you might find this hard to believe, but I have to to agree with Lizzie that there is nothing like being in a healthy church community. If you're not ready for that yet, I'm glad you're here and I am so honored that God is speaking to you through the words that you hear on this podcast. But let me also gently ask you the question, what are you waiting for to try again? What is the thing that you are holding onto before you decide to give the church another chance? If you're near Austin, please check out Jubilee Church with Father Lizzie. If you're anywhere near Charlotte, North Carolina, I'd love to personally welcome you into Mosaic. If you're somewhere else, let me know where you are and we'll see if we can make some becoming church connections to help you guys connect to each other and plug into healthily growing churches. I do believe that the church has changes to be made and I do believe that the church is moving in the direction of looking more and more like Jesus. Like Father Lizzie said, don't hide under a bushel. Let your light shine as you bring the hope of Jesus into the world. That's exactly what you're doing as you keep becoming the church to the people around.