Mary Marantz: Don’t be Underestimated

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Mary Morantz. Mary is an incredible writer who will make you laugh with her movie impressions, love you where you're at, and then she will bring in the challenge to help you move. If you've ever liked a sermon of mine, then you'll know exactly what I mean and you will want to read this book. Before I give it too much goodness away, let's jump right into it with my friend, Mary Morantz. Mary Morantz, welcome to the podcast. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, Kristen, I, like instantly fell in love with you. I got to meet you actually a year ago, you know, just. Just a few days ago. It made it a year. And I was actually just looking through those photos a couple days ago, and you had on this amazing, like pink and red, I think it was, or pink and orange. [00:01:07] Speaker A: Laser. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah, laser. And those amazing tennis shoes. And I just like from the word go, I was like, oh, I need to know who that is. [00:01:15] Speaker A: It was so sweet. Yes. Thank you for wearing your pink in honor of me today. [00:01:19] Speaker B: That's right. [00:01:20] Speaker A: In this, like, is. See, I don't even know. I'm like, what's the shirt called? What's the sports jersey? Jersey. Gosh, I couldn't find the word. [00:01:29] Speaker B: You know what? I didn't even realize that was a jersey. I thought it was the, you know, like the trend has come back for like the tennis sweaters with like pickleball, you know, and I having a very preppy heart. Very much love. That's. That's what I thought it was. Okay. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Are you a pickle baller? [00:01:44] Speaker B: No. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Okay, me neither. [00:01:47] Speaker B: I did not get an ounce of athleticism, so I like to dress for it as if I am. But no, totally, totally. [00:01:56] Speaker A: I love that you are a self proclaimed professional movie quoter though. [00:02:00] Speaker B: I am, I am. I feel like I have a PhD in. I call them the Talkies. I love the Talkies. [00:02:06] Speaker A: The Talkies. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:07] Speaker A: What movie do you find yourself quoting the most often? [00:02:10] Speaker B: Gosh, there's, there's like a rotation. And my husband is also a big movie quoter. So in our home, you know, there's like a rotation. Speed is one that we quote a lot. We also quit the office a lot even though that's not a movie. We quote poems, Point break. Basically all Keanu Reeves movies get coded in our home. Yeah. [00:02:28] Speaker A: How did that happen? [00:02:30] Speaker B: We both separately Watched them growing up. Like I saw Speed in the theater and I'd never seen a movie that made me feel that way. You know, they're like stuck in the elevator and then they're stuck on the bus and then they, they're stuck on the subway. They get stuck a lot in this movie. And I immediately went back and watched it again the very next day in the theater because I just like, I fell in love with that like, ooh, how's it all gonna work out? Adrenaline thing that movies can make us feel. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Yeah. But I will say one of my favorite movies, to quote, is not a Keanu Reeves movie. It is a. We actually named our dog after this movie. It's the Rock, starring Sean Connery and Nicholas Cage. Okay, Nick Cage. And Nick Cage plays a character named Stanley Goodspeed. And so our dog's name is Goodspeed. And there's like a line where Sean Connery's like, I'm sure you're familiar with the etymology of your surname. Good. Speed, as in God speed. And then like another time he's like, you best losers always whine about the best. I love it. So yeah, the audiobook for this book is very fun because there's a lot of quotes like that for movies and I do the voices and you do. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Accents too, Mary, I didn't know you had that talent as well. I just want to come hang out with you and your husband and just like sit and listen to you have full on conversations that are straight movie lines and accents. Like, that's amazing. [00:03:53] Speaker B: We feel kind of like the Gilmore Girls sometimes with our level of witty banter and like seven layers deep pop culture references. I love it. [00:04:00] Speaker A: It's perfect. It's my favorite thing. Well, you have two prior books and before the one that we're. I'm so excited to talk about today. And your work has been all over the place. I'm just going to list for some people. Cnn, the New York Times, Business Insider, Huffington Post, Southern Living, Hallmark. Which of those was the most exciting for you when you realized that your work was being covered? [00:04:22] Speaker B: I'm going to be honest with you, it was Hallmark home and family. And a huge reason for that is because. And this was actually in October 2020. So we were in the thick of COVID We didn't know if it was going to be able to happen. We had to take like the spit tests and mail them in two days before or something like that. And anyway, we fly. Justin and I both, my husband and I both got to fly To California, go on to the Universal Studios lot, be driven around by golf cart. They were like, oh, that's the psycho house, where, like, every actor has, like, signed their name in the rafters. And, like, there's the New York scene. We drove through Once Upon a time in Hollywood's sets. I got to be in my own little trailer. And then we walk onto the Hallmark home and family set. And they had just. We were the first ones filming when they turned it over to their Christmas set from their fall set. And so I was like, being in a Hallmark Christmas movie felt like you. [00:05:14] Speaker A: Were in, like, a snow globe. Like a Christmas. I can only imagine. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Yes. And there was, like, fake fluffy snow everywhere. It was. It was wild. And my movie lover's heart was just so happy. [00:05:24] Speaker A: I bet. Oh, that is so fun for you. Well, I want to jump into the book, but before we get to the words that you wrote, ma'am, your foreword was written by Sharon McMahon. [00:05:37] Speaker B: I know. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Talk to me about that. [00:05:40] Speaker B: I know, I know. I think it's so wise, child, how the, like, stories of our life unfold and how the, like, the connections in our lives unfold. So I had Sharon on my show a few years ago. Okay. She had just been on Trevor Noah. She was just kind of blowing up. And, you know, I reached out her and said, oh, I'd love to have you my show. And it turned out that. So Sharon had been a photographer. She's been a few different things before. She is America's government teacher. One of them is a photographer. And she'd actually taken our lighting course at some point. So I was, for everybody listening, who's meeting me for the first time. My husband Justin and I were full time wedding photographers and then became wedding or photography generally educators for about 15 years. And so she knew us from that and there was, you know, trust from that. And she came on and then I got to go on her show a couple times and then her back on my show, and then she very, very graciously agreed to write the foreword. And it is now just sort of like a pinch me moment. But I think, like, what's cool about this and the takeaway for this for people listening is like, never underestimate the excellence the character, the integrity you are showing up with in your smaller seasons because you have no idea who's watching you in that season that will then come back in a huge way a few years later where they will get to be the ones who kind of like, open the door for you. Yeah. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Yeah. That is so cool. I In a different but maybe similar way. You know, this show, this podcast, started as a hobby as like a. We just threw it out there as our church, and we were like, well, I don't know, let's see what. What happens. And now that we've been doing it, mostly I've been doing it for the last couple years. Same. Like, I have so many friends that I've met through the show and kept up with through social media, and I'm now working on my first book. [00:07:26] Speaker B: And I'm like, oh, I know. [00:07:28] Speaker A: I have these, like, actual legitimate, you know, quote unquote, people who are excited about what I'm doing because we. They were so gracious to, like, come and talk to me when I was nobody. Do what I mean, you know what I mean? [00:07:40] Speaker B: I love that. I love that. Have you announced what the COVID or andor title are? I haven't. They're still secret. Okay. [00:07:46] Speaker A: I haven't. [00:07:46] Speaker B: It's still. [00:07:47] Speaker A: I mean, I'm still writing it. People are like, when is it coming out? I'm like, until fall 2026. [00:07:51] Speaker B: But okay, that'll be here before you know it, though. It goes so fast. [00:07:54] Speaker A: Yes. Well, I'm stalking your social media and all the things that you're doing to promote Underestimated, because I'm like, oh, these are so many good ideas. I'm just writing them all down. [00:08:02] Speaker B: Just wait. Just wait until you see what we're doing for the launch boxes. I'll just say that we'll put air quotes around launch boxes. Just wait. You're gonna love it. [00:08:12] Speaker A: So excited. Well, let's jump into it. So underestimated. I'm holding it right here. For anybody watching on YouTube, the surprisingly simple shift to quit playing small Name the fear and move forward. Anyway, before I ask you my questions, just what's the, like, elevator pitch? Tell people what the book's about. [00:08:30] Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, you were holding one of the earliest copies right there. That's what's called an arc, an advanced reader copy. So that's kind of like a quick printing in soft cover. We the hard covers in, they have this beautiful spot varnish. My husband's family was in printing for years. They have a beautiful spot. They didn't do this. We just know these terms, spot varnish on the compass and embossing and varnish on the letters. And it's just so beautiful. And it's so wild when you get to actually hold it in, like, all the interior and the exterior all put together at once, you know, because you might see, like, the design and you might see the COVID but to see it all together is great. So the elevator pitch for this book is if. My first book, Dirt, which is about growing up in a single eye trailer. This is very classic Mary, by the way. It's like, give us the elevator pitch. I'm like, on day one, I was born. [00:09:15] Speaker A: That was perfect. [00:09:18] Speaker B: So good. In my first book, Dirt, I talk about growing up on a single wide trailer in rural West Virginia and then eventually going on to Yale for law school. And in some ways, as a movie lover, we're very familiar with an underdog trope like that of, like, very humble beginnings to the Ivy League or the sports success or whatever. And so for me, it was very important to write that book. Not specifically from the look at what I've done lens, but what does my story look like through the lens of Grace? What does it look like to go back to the very beginning and make peace with our past and have empathy for the people who came before that Maybe they weren't always perfect, but they were doing the best that they could. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:53] Speaker B: And so if Dirt is making peace with your past, slow growth equals strong roots. As my second book is about giving up, achieving for your worth. I'm the classic A plus plus overachiever. Give me all the gold stars, and I will work myself to death for you. And so that's. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Did you put my picture in there? That book is about me. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Just, like a little, like, insert your photo here page. And so I entered that book going, is that something you can even do? 40? Because I wrote that. That book launched when I was 42. And it's like, I mean, listen, we got a real track record of doing this. Can it ever be undone? And so if book one is making peace with your past, book two is giving up achieving for your worth. Underestimated is now the third step in that evolution of once we do both of those first two things, now we're able to actually show up with purpose and actually do the work we were created to do. And that's when fear, which is a really boring liar, loves to swoop in and tell us all the reasons we should keep playing small. And so the whole book is kind of premised on this idea of fear is a really boring liar. And chapter by chapter, I go toe to toe with all the different faces that it puts on. So, like, perfectionism, procrastination, people pleasing, imposter syndrome, overthinking, even a fear of success. Fourteen of them in total. And I just. I'm in love with this book. I'm just so, so proud of it. 12 hour days for 12 months to get it down. And now we're like, as we're recording this, like less than a month from it coming out. So. Yeah, here we go. Yeah. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you rattled off all of the chapters. I was laughing at your chapter titles. You're such a fantastic writer anyway. But I was just laughing because you have things like, you know, self sabotage as a shot glass or criticism is an inside job. Perfectionism is hiding with better pr. [00:11:26] Speaker B: That's my favorite. That's my favorite. [00:11:28] Speaker A: That's so good. How did you come up with all these. [00:11:30] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. You know, I'll tell you this, Kristen, from the very beginning, Liz Gilbert talks about in Big Magic, this idea. She kind of personifies ideas and imagines them walking around in the world, tapping people on the shoulder and wanting to enter into like a handshake agreement to be made into the world. And from the very beginning, when this idea hit me and tapped me on the shoulder, I knew it was a really special book. You know, I'd never quite seen a book like this where it just does so comprehensively go like 10, really 14 rounds with fear. And something I have learned through writing three books now in five years is that the idea will very much tell you what it wants to be and it reveals itself to you in stages. You know, I kind of compare it to like carving a statue. Like, with each pass, more detail emerges. And so when I first started writing this book, I thought it was going to be a hundred percent about when other people underestimate us and, like, feeling like that my whole life and like, what are we going to do about it? And it was going to be all like, yeah, we'll show them. Yeah. And then the idea was like, cool, cool. That'll be like 20% of the book. 80% of it, though, is going to be about when we do it to ourselves. Okay, are you ready? And I was like, no. And so chapter by chapter, it was really amazing. Every time I write a book, it is very much like working a puzzle. And it is not very clear in the beginning. And it's. You're just not making a lot of progress in the beginning. And then it starts to pick up speed and it's going faster and the momentum really, you know, till by the end, it's like flying into place at the end. And it's like, this is the most fun I've ever had. And so the chapters really revealed in the same Way the book revealed itself to me chapter by chapter, it was revealing to me what it wanted to be. And they are very much based on the things that are written in the chapter. So perfectionism is hiding with better is like not since the Got Milk people has an ad campaign made something so plain Jane Vanilla seem so sexy and sought after. Chapter 11 is failure is a bankrupt identity. So you know, chapter 11, bankrupt has nothing to do with bankruptcy. Self sabotage is a shot glass has nothing to do with that. Drinking alcohol. It's just like the much, much deeper visual that each chapter represents. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah, now it's beautiful pictures, but it's all. It's so intriguing. I mean, that's about like, if I can be intrigued from the. The table of contents, you know. Well, the very first thing that you put in your book was a quote by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. And it says, beautiful people do not just happen. Yeah, tell me what that means to you. [00:13:48] Speaker B: So that full quote, everybody listening should, should just Google it and look up the full quote. I'm not going to even attempt to recite it from memory and mess it up because it's way too beautiful for that. But it's basically this idea of the most beautiful people we know have known suffering. They have known hard things in their story, you know, that, that we are not. We think, we think people are born beautiful. But it's a lot like the moral of the Velveteen Rabbit where it's like only when you're, you know, all your fur has been rubbed off and like your, you know, joints are all wobbly and your eyes popping out or whatever, you can only be ugly then to people who don't understand and below that in the, you know, dedication, I say hard story. People are my people. Here's to the kind ones, the quiet ones, the ones so often overlooked. Pain, like progressively finer grits of San has rounded off all our hard edges, making us a soft place to land for others. But ironically, that mud in our stories makes us believe we are disqualified before we even begin. We're exactly who we need showing up in the world and we use those very same reasons to disqualify ourselves. So that's what it means to me. But everybody just go Google it. Elizabeth Kubler Ross. Beautiful people do not just happen. And it, it makes me feel like I feel, you know, I think there's a wisdom when you can say I am finally at the point in my life where I would not trade the story that I had if it meant I would also have to trade every bit of compassion and empathy and kindness and wisdom that it brought me. And that's finally where, you know, in my 40s, where I've arrived. [00:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, on the. On the same very same page you write, a lifetime of being overlooked has now turned you into someone who sees. I'm gonna cry just to see. Saying this sentence out loud. Mary, I have not stopped thinking about this. I have not stopped thinking about this. I'm gonna say it again because I messed it up because I was emotional. A lifetime of being overlooked has now turned you into someone who sees. I think right now there is so much talk about empathy and compassion. It's not all great. You know, there's. There's people saying that they're toxic and whatever. But I would be so curious to see if my theory is that, like, this is the origin story for that, for our generation of people now going, no, empathy and compassion are good, and it's because of the experiences that we had, maybe, that. That we're. We're seeing this rise of people fighting for compassion and empathy. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I. Listen, we can have a whole episode on this. I mean, we are in the upside down, and empathy is under attack. I think. I think, you know, like, a really bad game of telephone. I'm assuming. I'm assuming the best, that this maybe started with, like, oh, like, empathy, when used with the wrong intentions, can be weaponized or whatever. I don't. I don't really know. But I think what I would say to that is, that's not real empathy. You know, you don't. You never use empathy to manipulate you, never use empathy to control you, never use empathy to keep people stuck or whatever. You can. You can say, like, let me take a minute and, you know, listen before I respond and actually sit back and imagine if I were in those shoes, how I would feel. And none of that is you saying, let me tell you how to feel. Let me, you know, tell you what you must do. Or. Or, like, no, no, just stay right where you are. Like. Like, one of my favorite parts about this book is, like, I'm gonna give you two parts love and one part tough, right? I'm gonna love you right where you are. And I'm gonna say, we can't stay here. We have to go. And so I just think that we've really gotten it twisted, and we don't really understand what empathy is. If we think that it's. It's toxic, you know, if we think that it's. That it's anything other than seeing another human being as a human Being. Yeah. [00:17:37] Speaker A: And seeing their value. Yeah, right. It's that, you know, I, I don't love the phrase everything happens for a reason, but I do. It does. Like, come bring this to mind, like you were saying, you know, I don't think we all have hard stuff in our stories, you know, but I've gotten to the point now also in my 40s where I'm like, no, I, I wouldn't actually trade that. Even though there were some really, really hard years, I wouldn't trade it because I, I think I needed those experiences to become who I am now so that I can fight for the people that I'm fighting for now. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. 100%. You can say I wouldn't be who I am if this didn't happen. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna find ways to think what happened because of who it made me become without, you know, like, we can hold two ideas at once. We are complex beings who are capable of complex thoughts without saying. And that makes everything okay. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Right. You can say that was hard. That was wrong. And also, yes, it was used for good in my life. [00:18:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:37] Speaker B: You know. [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:38] Speaker B: It was redeemed in my life. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Mary, I know that. I mean, I truly, I think this book is going to break chains and bring freedom to people, but I know out of my own experience that there's also this voice in the back of our minds of pride and being prideful. And, and that even when people are trying to not underestimate themselves and live into all the things that they want to do or accomplish or celebrate, that voice is still there of like, you just want attention. You're just being prideful. How can we silence that? And, and how is it actually godly to shut that down? [00:19:15] Speaker B: Right. So I will just premise this by saying that particular lie is not one I have personally struggle with that much. And we're going to talk about the other extreme. Yes, the other extreme that I have struggled with. And it's not exactly what you think it is. I'll just create some intrigue there. I really started to see this one show up when I started coaching not just women entrepreneurs or women authors, but Christian women entrepreneurs and authors in particular, that this had been sort of like, you know, driven into their brains from a young age. That anything you do that raises your hand or steps into the spotlight or steps forward or has a declarative sentence not qualified by self deprecating questions is somehow prideful. That anything that says, oh, gosh, I have these gifts that I've been Given maybe I should go use them is prideful. And it really kind of bowled me over because I. My first whole career, like I mentioned, was with. In photography. And so that was 15 years with entrepreneurs, creative entrepreneurs at that. And we're spicy. We're. We're like, go getters. Let's go do the thing. There was not a whole lot of, oh, gosh, I don't know if I should. And so to then come into the world of, you know, more of the Christian world and the Christian author world, not to say that I wasn't a Christian during that whole photography season, but to really specialize in, like, oh, now we're helping Christian women get their messages out. It really bowled me over how much that one came up. And I was just like, really? We're here again. Yeah. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:41] Speaker B: And so there's that. That's one. And then we'll talk about the other extreme, which is not me being like, I am so prideful that I'm just so amazing and like an arrogance. I don't mean it that way, Kristen. My version of pride has come from the other extreme of I don't want to do it unless I did it with my own hands. I don't want God to just open a door for me. I don't want it to just be handed to me. You know, I grew up in Appalachia. We're not big on handouts. We're not big on if you didn't work for it, if you didn't struggle for it. You know, we say if you don't struggle for it, you probably don't deserve it. Which has made a journey with grace. Are really interesting one. And so I get really prideful around. Around wanting to be part of it. You know, I don't. I don't like those moments when God is just like, here it is. And it's easy. I'm like, what's my part in it? You know, like. Like, where's the mud in my hands? Where's the grit under my fingernails, whatever. And I think what that is for me, I heard a really beautiful sermon a couple. A couple years ago from my pastor on this. It's this idea of what we're really holding on to is we want to be able to take credit for it. And so I. That's the part that I struggle with. Yeah. And I. And I. I think that both of those are keeping us from the work we are meant to do. Because the truth is, the best things that have happened in my life, my hard work could walk me up to a certain point. And then there was this big gap that had to be filled in with that gap is, but God, you know, I could work really hard and get good grades and get good LSAT scores, but getting into the number one law school, that's like basically getting a Willy Wonka's Golden Tickets, you know, that is the but God moment. That. That had to be part of my story. It wasn't going to happen. So I think it's like on both ends of the spectrum, it's both being willing to show up, not thinking that's prideful, but then also not being so prideful that you want to be the one responsible for all of it. [00:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:29] Speaker A: I'm like, how do I feel both sides of that pride coin? Because I do. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:34] Speaker A: While at the same time wanting to shut down. You know, I think a lot of times it's the other. It's voices from other people, you know, that are either trying to say, hey, that's prideful, or to go, honey, this is really not a big deal. Like, you know, I remember getting, when I was getting married, hearing from someone that I love very much, like, I don't know why you're making everybody gets married, or you're not the first person to get married. And I was like, wow, this is my first time to get married. [00:23:02] Speaker B: You know what I mean? Right. [00:23:04] Speaker A: And so I think now too, it's hard because when we, you know, once we're ready to like, move forward in confidence and do all of these things, we want to hold on to the excitement of what God has created us to do and is also doing. Right. The opportunities he's giving us. How do we keep moving forward in the midst of, like, drive by commentary like that, that says, like, this is not a big deal or people don't get it when we, we want to be excited and celebrate. Like, this is good stuff. [00:23:35] Speaker B: Yes. 100 I like, again, this could be its own episode. Right. In and of itself. I get real spicy about this. [00:23:41] Speaker A: Let's go. [00:23:42] Speaker B: One of my first, one of my most popular Instagram posts that's. I think it's still pinned at the top of my Instagram right now. Says, let's stop saying little. Let's stop saying little. And it's talking about. It tells the story of me speaking at a conference and I'm on stage and I'm like, pouring it out. I'm crying my eyes out. It's like I was like, on fire. I was so proud of that. And I go into the bathroom right afterwards to kind of like get the mascara off my toenails, basically. It's like all the way down and I have like the like recycled paper towel that's like scratching my cornea, you know, trying to get the mascara out of there. And this, I saw the door open behind me in the mirror reflection and this, this woman from the crowd gave me this kind of like instant once over that's just sort of like Meryl Streep and, you know, the Devil Wears Prada, like, I'm not going to Paris, basically. And she said to me, like, I liked your little talk in there. And I was just thinking, like, it didn't feel so little to me, like, right in point, you know, I'm pointing at the mascara and I think, like, we all have experienced that. Like, oh, how's that little business of yours doing? And it's like, you mean the six figure one that's paying all my bills? It's pretty good. How's that little podcast doing? How's that little book doing? And I think it's so ingrained, people don't even catch themselves doing it. So I show up with a lot of empathy and a lot of grace and I'm like, oh, I'll tell you nothing about it felt little to me. It's 12 hours a day for 12 months and they can instantly kind of go, oh, right, right. And then that post goes on to say, like, it's the moments we say it to ourselves that's the hardest when we little all over ourselves. And yeah, like, one of the things I talk about in the book is those moments when you just want to be seen so bad by somebody else. Like, I have a recurring dream of just like chasing this author. I look up to if they would just turn around and look at the book I have in my hands for them, then finally I will have arrived. And so many times when you're coming up, most people, in my very unscientific opinion, 99.9% of the world are not the visionaries. They can only see this kind of like slice of, you know, through time, this x and Y axis of exactly where you are at timestamp 1400 hours. You know, they cannot see where you're headed. There's a 1% of the population or 0.01% of the population that are the visionaries, the coaches, the fishers of men, right? These are the ones who can look at someone and see not just who they are, but who they're becoming. Not just where they are, but where they are going. And they can look at you. When I look at somebody, I can see as clear as day who I know they're going to become. Yeah, 99.9 of the world will not see that. And so I have a script that I tell myself in moments like that, and that is, that's okay. You'll meet them later. Other people's lack of vision about where you're headed has nothing to do with where you're being called. And so that's the most important thing. Let's stop littleing over each other and littleing ourselves. And most importantly, it's they. You do not need them to cosign on the plans that God has for your life. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Well, and I think we can stop littleing ourselves, too, by even just going like, okay, the business doesn't have to have six figures and the podcast doesn't have to be nationally recognized, and the book doesn't have to be a New York Times bestseller or. But like, but we're. I feel like if we're doing the thing God has called us to do and we're walking in obedience, it can be just for you and your own family or just for your church or just for yourself. And it still, still counts. It's still a big deal. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Gosh, I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that because I am so wired to be that achiever. So I'm constantly like, you know, like, oh, let me tell you about them. Let me just prove to you how far I've come. Yeah, and I'm just so glad you said that, because that is a hundred percent true. What would we do for the one? Even if it never reached the many 100? [00:27:04] Speaker A: Do you think, Mary, that people can become that kind of visionary that you talked about, where they can, like, teach themselves to see the potential in someone else, even if that's not something that comes naturally to them? [00:27:17] Speaker B: My answer is, I hope so. I hope so. I hope somebody's listening to this. I'll give you. I'll give you a really quick story. All the evidence to the contrary thus far proves otherwise. But I'll give you a really quick story. Okay, so here it is, different time, speaking at a different conference. We were at the Windshield Conference, which is the Chick Fil A Shaping Winners Campus in Rome, Georgia. And I was speaking after lunch, but they asked us to come in during lunch, sit down with the attendees and talk to people, which is super happy to do. And so this particular dining hall is set up like, where you get your tray and you go through the cafeteria, like, you're back in high school, and then you come out with your little tray, and you're like, I don't know where to sit. And I sat down at this table of women, and I'm, like, trying to do the speaker thing and be like, oh, where are you from? Do, do, do. Oh, how long you been in business? And they could not care less. And it was just sort of like, you know, there was one spot open. They always. We always talk about be a horseshoe, not a circle. Like, leave room for people to enter the circle that's already established. But, man, they just, like, closed ranks the second I sat down. And I was like, okay, I'll just eat my chicken nuggets by myself. It's fine. And then right after lunch, we walk across the courtyard and go into the auditorium, and I'm the next speaker. And. And again, really good talk, like, on fire. Like, a lot of crying in the room. And. And this one woman who had been kind of the queen bee at lunch who was really sort of, like, giving off the energy of, like, I'm holding courts. I don't know. Yeah, you can't sit with us. 100 came up to me, and she was just crying and crying and crying her eyes out, telling me her story. And then she said to me, I wish I would have known you were a speaker at lunch. I would have talked to you more. And I said, maybe that's a problem. Yeah, you know, and so I hope that that interaction, or maybe we can just sort of learn by hearing that story secondhand teaches us, like, how many times do we have to make that mistake of, like, not seeing somebody? And then I'm gonna fill in the rest of the sentence with like. And then they do kind of, like, you know, become huge. But regardless, you should just see them whether or not they become huge later. And then we have to kind of go back and go, oh, gosh, I wish I would have, like, given you more time on the way up. Up. I will never have to make that mistake, because I want to do everything I can to be a person who's been overlooked. So now I'm a person who sees. So, like, maybe if that. The. The regular, you know, 99.9% have that happen to them enough where they're like, oh, I wish I would have spent more time talking to you. Then maybe they can start to look for people, or maybe they will experience being overlooked, and they won't want to become somebody who does that to others. You know, so much of, like, what has made me the person I am today is, gosh, just really either making the mistake myself or, you know, we treat people how we want to be treated. That's the golden rule. And sometimes that involves being treated the opposite, and then it trains us not to do that. [00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:30:02] Speaker A: Well, Mary, thinking about the people, because you and I have both kind of alluded to or said, you know, we've been through stuff. We've grown. Look at us. We're so mature now. But it's hard. It took a lot of therapy and a lot of years and a lot of crying and a lot of cuss words to God in prayer. At least for me, where I'm like, what? What are you doing? [00:30:24] Speaker B: You know, so for people to get it together. Yeah. Yes. [00:30:28] Speaker A: Like, come on, smite them. Smite them. They're so mean. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Yes. Prepare a table for me and make them watch me eat. [00:30:40] Speaker A: How the person that is still. I don't want to say stuck, because I know that they can move, but the person who maybe is still present in bitterness or unforgiveness or the pain of being treated, being overlooked, being underestimated, all of these things. For anybody who's listening, who is still there, how would you suggest that they even start to move forward into, like, being able to now see that as a good thing? [00:31:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So here's the first thing that's coming up for me. Here's the first thing that's coming up for me. Dirt is very much. Even though it is, like, it was very important for me that it not be a misery memoir or, like, a blaming people memoir. Like, can you believe that happened to me memoir? It's very much an underdog story. Okay. And I have really resonated with underdog tropes my entire life. Like, I love underdog movies in particular, and movies where the world's about to end. Those are my two favorite genres. What's that about? I don't know. Um. Anyway. And so underestimated really becomes this journey of, like, in chapter 14 is success is a slippery slope. It's when we're kind of wrapping up the full circle moment, rounding the bend towards home again, I say it starts off, the underdog is a role of a lifetime. And what I mean by that is, if we are not careful, we can spend our whole lives playing that part. And so here's. Here's the danger, here's the trap is that I can tell you with 25 plus years of experience proving people wrong, being like, oh, you want. You don't think I can do it. You don't want to bet on me. Big mistake. Huge. I have more shopping to do. You know, I have used that for 25 years and it's a very effective explosive jet fuel. It will get you results, but it is not a renewable, sustainable fuel source. It is the kind of fuel source that will leave you this hollow, burned out shell of yourself. There's a section in chapter 14 that says proving people wrong is a powder keg that. You know, there was this sugar refinery factory in Georgia that blew up in like 2007. And the reason was because the sugar dust accumulated and they weren't doing the housekeeping to clean up that mess. If we are not careful, we will let the sugary hits and highs of getting everything we ever wanted, proving everybody wrong. Gold star after gold star after gold star accumulate and turn into gunpowder. And we will blow up our entire lives trying to be like, oh, how do you like me now? And so if we are going to go where we are truly created to go, we need a much more renewable energy source. And it turns out that energy source is not proving people wrong, but purpose. It's instead of saying what might go wrong like fear wants you to do, or who will that show like our actual psychological egos want us to do? Yeah, it's saying, yeah, but who might it help? Who might have an easier path up the mountain for the fact that I've been up here a few times before because there's a whole running metaphor of a boulder being pushed up the mountain that carries through the whole book. So that's my very round, long, fully filled in picture of. You can prove people wrong. You can spend your whole life being bitter, being the underdog, but man, the only one that's going to leave completely hollow inside is you. [00:33:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And it does take the hard work of forgiveness and being able to let go of the people that hurt. Listen, there was. I'll say, I'm like, I'm trying to do this big. But it's going to be for people that know, they're going to know anyways. I left a very toxic work environment that was very close to my house. And Mary, when I tell you for probably a solid year, every time I drove by, I just wanted to like metaphorically, like stick up a middle finger out the window as I'm just driving by because I was so hurt and so angry. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel. [00:34:24] Speaker A: And it took a lot of forgiveness, you know. [00:34:26] Speaker B: Yes, I really feel that. And I'll just briefly say, like, you know, we had in 2011. We, as in the photography world, we had entire workshops and courses of ours taken by another photography team and passed off as their own. And we have no idea the years of your life you will waste being mad about that. The creative energy that. Because listen, you can either be spending your energy being mad at somebody else or going and doing the work you were created to do. And it's not going to be both. Isn't that? And you will not create beautiful work from a place of revenge or place of bitterness or anger. And so when they talk about, you know, for you forgive, you're not going to swallow poison anymore and hope it, you will kill somebody else. That's 100% the truth. And when we finally started to just be like, whatever, like we have to let go of that is when my best work started coming out again. So it's not because, like it was okay, right? It's not because it like excused that, but it is like, I have more important work to do. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and I. There's not a turning point. I don't think there's like a day where you go, okay, like, I'm done with this. Sometimes you have to reforgive and reforgive. [00:35:30] Speaker B: But. But yeah, eventually, actually, really quickly. Shauna Nicholas has, in one of her books, has this visual of like she visually imagined taking somebody off the hook every day. Let him off the hook today, I'm gonna let him off the hook tomorrow, I'm gonna let him off the hook the next day. And I had a visual in my head of like a really knotted up heart just untangling it every day. And then like, like a necklace, like a tangle of necklaces. That's kind of what it felt like day after day after day until eventually, like you just, you go a few days and you haven't thought about it, it. And then a few days turns into a week and beyond. But it is a process for sure. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah. We get to theologian Taylor Swift's line of I forgot that you existed. Like, I just woke up one day and I forgot that you were there. And what a beautiful feeling that gives me sometimes to move on. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Coming back to our empathy conversation. Even, even more beautiful for me, and this one took years to get to is like, it didn't excuse anything that they did, but I can understand their origin story that drove them to think they had to, to cut every corner to get to success faster. Yeah, I don't even like saying those words. There's part of me that's like, oh, gosh, come on. Like really we're gonna ask people to do that. I wouldn't have believed it was possible at a certain point in my life, but we did get there. Yeah. [00:36:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, well, I want to know, in underestimated, do you think there are certain personality types that are more prone to believing these lies than others? [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, one. One of the things I talk about and underestimated is that for years I thought I was an enneagram type 3, for example, as a certain, you know, example of personality types, I for sure thought I was a three. And I had Ian Morgan Cron on my show, and I was reading his book the Road Back to you, and he was talking about how true enneagram threes, when they are unhealthy, will cut corners to get to the result faster. They will be social chameleons. They will shapeshift to be whoever they think the person in the room needs them to be in order to get ahead. And none of that resonated with me because I've always been very much, much authenticity, originality, excellence, integrity. These are driving forces for me. And so I asked him about it and he's like, listen, you're not supposed to type other people, but I'll just tell you to Google self preservationist fours. Okay, so self preservationist fours are very much like the deep thinkers. They very much value originality. They like being not only the best, the only, you know. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:37:47] Speaker B: And so super unique. Yes, exactly. And. But they can try to achieve their way into safety if they had hard stories. And so that very much resonated. And Enneagram fours in particular are known for feeling like they have a fatal flaw, that there's this missing piece, that they're constantly like that illusionist in the distance. I talk about in the book these a thousand illusioned illuminated versions of you on a thousand mountaintop moments you have not yet seen, and none of them are waiting for you to catch up. And we are constantly feeling like if we could just reach that version of us, then all the pieces would fall into place. So I think anybody, whether you're a four or not, who feels that probably especially is prone to, like I say in the books, at a certain point, these missing pieces become a fatal flaw. And this, you know, is where the death of the dream happens on the mountain yet again. So I would say that would be my short answer is anybody who's. Who's just really trying to achieve into safety, or you feel like you're missing parts that other people seem to have. [00:38:45] Speaker A: As an enneagram3, I will say for the Enneagram threes also, any type. A big achiever. I do think that you cover so many different lies and different topics that truly everyone will be able to find something in here where they read it and they're like, oh, dang it, that hurts. But I needed to read it. [00:39:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. You know, the twos and the people pleaser chapter. Yeah, for sure. [00:39:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. Well, perfection ones in perfectionism. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Everybody. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Before I ask you the last question, is there anything else that you wanted to say about Underestimated? [00:39:20] Speaker B: I will just say, you know, I've had the question come up a few times, like, who. Who did you most write this book for? [00:39:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:27] Speaker B: And I think the most bullseye reader target for this book I feel especially called and put here to serve are these hard story people who are the generation changers. They are the ones who. My friend Hannah Bruncher talks about the moments in our story when something is like a Sharpie mark through the calendar and it divides our lives into a before and an after. And these are the people who are like, taking a Sharpie mark to their family tree. There's going to be a before and an after them. They're saying, it ends with me. And these people have already in so many ways done that. Maybe they were the first in their family to go to college, the first in their family to have a home, maybe, or parents with a secure attachment, whatever the case may be. But they just keep feeling like, why is everything harder than it feels like it should be? Why does it seem so easy for other people to just go, implement, execute, achieve? And I keep, keep dropping the boulder at the last minute and starting over from the bottom. And so 100% I believe that when those kind of people who are already saying it ends with me, those kind of people who are already so gifted, so talented, but they keep shrinking back from the world because they don't believe that they are worthy. There's something in their story that disqualifies them. When those people can be set free of the icy grip of fear, I feel like the ripple effects from that are gonna, like, you know, whip around the world 47, 000 times. [00:40:42] Speaker A: No. [00:40:43] Speaker B: And I just really hope that when I, like, like, you know, get to heaven, I get kind of a little glimpse of, like, the things that occurred in this world. Because those people said, what if I show up anyway? [00:40:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:52] Speaker B: So that's what I'll say. Like, you know, I had a friend once, Antonio Nevs, who said we should be able to talk about our things we're creating with the same enthusiasm that we talk about Hamilton. Yes. What he means is, like, we know how good of an experience they're about to have. [00:41:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:06] Speaker B: And we know how good it is. And we know, like, we have zero guilt saying, go check out this other thing. So we should feel that way if our way work does that as well. And I just kind of want to, like, go watch everybody's faces while they read it, because I know the journey they're about to go on. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think I. I love it. What did you say? A generational changer? Is that what you call them? [00:41:25] Speaker B: Generation changer? Yeah. [00:41:26] Speaker A: I think that's why I'm having to go through this book so slowly. Like, Mary, I was getting teared up again just listening to you talk about that, because I've been like, oh, that resonates so much. And I. I don't know that I would have grabbed that label, but. But, man, it is. It's so good. It's so, so good. Well, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How does not end or underestimating ourselves help us to become the church to the people around us? [00:41:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I have so many thoughts. I'm gonna try this. Since we're wrapping up, I'm trying not to go on a soliloquy here. [00:41:57] Speaker A: You're all right. [00:41:59] Speaker B: One of the things that I've seen kind of like whipping around in Christian conversations, kind of like a bad game of telephone gone, gone wrong. And again, I am a Christian, so I'm in these conversations is something along the lines of, well, God doesn't need you to fulfill his purpose. God doesn't need you. Like, he can move right on. Now at the highest level of, you know, religion. Yes, of course. He is omniscient. He's omnipresent. He's all powerful. He doesn't have to have need us. Right. And also, he created the world we live in and the rules that he set for us, these universal rules. And in the same way that he said, I want to see this human experiment exist with free will, I believe he also created a world where he does want to co create with us. He does want to say, you, Mary Mariens, you, Kristen Muckler Young. You know, am I saying all of those last names correctly? [00:42:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:42:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, good. You, Kristen Muckler Young. I have a divine purpose for you. I have something that's going to hit other people in a way that I think at this cross hair Intersection of the year of our Lord 2025. You're going to say it in a way that they've never quite heard it before. You're going to say something that they've never quite heard before. And it's going to hit them like a bolt of lightning to an exposed route that feels like a root canal when the air hits just right. And it's going to be the thing that changes them. And I do want to co create with you and I do want you to show up and I do think that the world is worse for your absence when you don't. And another year goes by and the clock goes on ticking. And so, yes, I could do it myself, Grandma Gordy style. This is God saying that. But instead I am asking you to partner with me and I'm tapping you on the shoulder and like the parable of the talents, you can bury it and you can hide it and you can say, I don't want to mess it up and I'm just gonna like keep it safe over here and hidden. But at a certain point you're gonna forfeit the opportunity and yeah, maybe it'll be achieved some other way. But I wanted to do it with you. [00:43:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:52] Speaker B: And so that's what I think we lose when we play small. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Oh, amen. Mary Morantz. Hallelujah. Battle Preach. That was so good. I'm like, woo, Perfect dancer. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Perfect. Yeah. [00:44:03] Speaker A: Yay. Well, I'm gonna link up all three of your books in the show notes. I highly encourage people to go read them. Do they need to read them in order? I know you kind of said like, book one, book two, book three. [00:44:13] Speaker B: It's a great question actually. I think you could read underestimated. First I'm pulling some excerpts from 1 and 2 in and then it's like, ooh, I want to go deeper. So if dirt is sort of like the movie of my life. Underestimated up in Choking is like the textbook. It's like, okay, let's go back and figure out why we are the way we are. And so I do have two fun things for your people, if you want me to talk about that now or. Okay, cool. So in slow Growth, I introduced these characters called the achiever types, the five achiever types. And they are carried over and underestimated of like, why do these types, how do they play small and how do they get stuck? And so we have the performer who's always on their toes. They need to show not just themselves but the world how far they've come. We have our Tightrope walker who could care less who's clapping. But they need higher and higher death defying feats to feel the same amount of good. We have the masquerader who shoves other people into the spotlight so that they can hide in plain sight. Our people pleaser is the classic. The contortionist is the classic people pleaser. They contort because it is easier than to be criticized. And the illusionist in the distance believes that they themselves and all the conditions to begin must be perfect before they can even start. And so if your people go to achieverquiz.com or marymarans.com quiz M A R A N T Z It takes like two minutes to take the quiz. 10 minutes if you really overthink it. It's 10 really light and easy fun questions. And then in true Mary form, we go easy and fun with the questions and then deep with the results. I'm going to tell you why you, why your type gets stuck playing small and how you fix it. So that's achieverquiz.com and then if they go to namethe fear.com that's the website for the book we actually have up there. Kristen, for your people, the entire first chapter up there for free. They can just grab it and download it and read it today so they can get a feel for my writing while they're over there. If they want, they can pre order because pre orders are huge in getting good, excellent, thoughtful, original books out into the world. We have the first three chapters. I just need to, I need to underscore that. Listen, everybody talks about this. Authors always talk about this. Truly it makes like whether Amazon will recommend the book. That's what we're talking about here. Whether it will ever show up on shelves. Like it is that serious. So if you pre order and want to support the book, we have the first three chapters as a bonus. But even more importantly, we have the whole audiobook when it comes out. So you'll kind of get two books for the price of one. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:46:23] Speaker B: And I read the audiobook. So if you've enjoyed my deep soliloquies on every question and, and my, my movie quotes impressions, they're all in there. And that's@namethe fear.com and then @marymarance on Instagram. Come tell me what you thought of the episode, what achiever type you are. If you pre ordered all the things. [00:46:43] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you so much. This has been such a delight. Yes, everybody go. We want to know what your achiever type is. Go get the book all those things. Follow Mary. She's so much fun. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Thank you for having me on. I just love you so much. Oh, I love you very, very good friends and live closer and see each. [00:47:00] Speaker A: Other all the time. [00:47:01] Speaker B: I know, right? We'll make it happen. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Listen, I want all of us to be generation changers. And I believe that we can. It doesn't matter if you think your voice is too soft, your personality is too timid, or your heart is too tender. God put you in this world, in this moment, in this time, in this exact location, because he wants to partner with you to bring heaven to earth, not only for the people around you, but so that you can live life to the full abundance. I see it in you. And if you need help seeing it in yourself, Mary and I are both here to cheer you on. Please connect with us on Instagram at marymarantz or hristenmochleryoung so we can help you to become exactly who God made you to be. I'm so grateful for every listen and every share of every episode of Becoming Church. Just as Mary mentioned about book pre orders, reviews also help this podcast get into the ears of people who need it. If you've ever felt encouraged or inspired or even seen through a guest on this show, I'd love for you to write a review or at least just tap those five stars wherever you're listening. If you ever share an episode, be sure to tag me as well so I can see how God is speaking to you through us. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.