Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is someone whose voice is in my ears almost daily, and that is by choice as the host of the Faith Adjacent and Shelf Respect. Jamie B. Golden is here to blend faith and pop culture in a way that only she can. I can think of no better way to begin this new year than with her delightful perspective of humor, nuance, and imitation.
Jamie golden, welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Genuinely, you've been tricked. The fact that you're letting me on here is a delight. And I'm. And you get no take backs. No, no, no take backsies. Okay.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Definitely. Definitely not. I am so excited. I wore my golden sweater just for you.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Gorgeous Gore Jess, as always. Listen, that's the other thing. It's like, aren't church people supposed to be dour?
And you're like, absolutely not. Under no circumstances.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Listen, there are a lot of things that, like, aren't church people supposed to be. And I'm like, yeah, no, no, I'm not.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: No. I would say we are not any of those things. For the most part. Yeah. Yes.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: That's why we can have our, you know, this online social friendship that we have because we both embrace our weird things.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: No, we embrace. Listen. And we. We fight all the things in. In love, but like aging, hair, being frizzy. These are all things we're working toward. And we love the Lord.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: God. Jesus Christ.
So you can hold both. You can.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: And we both pray to God.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, listen, of course, we. For the listener. We had a whole conversation on our podcast at Faith that Jason, about, do you pray to God or do you pray to Jesus? And I was startled, shocked. And I'm going to be honest, I had to rethink the business partnership I have with Evan and Aaron when I found out they pray to Jesus. And I'm like, what?
And I don't listen. I'm not going to go on a public record and call Jesus a middleman. I'm not going to do that. Okay. But I just go, wait, no.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: God, Right.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Like a debate for the ages.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah, but I'm with you. I'm team God. I'm team. We pray to God, love Jesus, God, talk to the Holy Spirit more than the others. But like, yeah, we pray to God. Isn't it weird how we have these things that we're so solidified on?
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And that we don't know other people aren't on the same page about. And you're like. And they make a good case. Listen, intercession and such. Right hand of God. I do get it. Yes. But I'm always like, but the. God's lap. I don't know that that's where I want to. I don't know that's how I want to land that plane. But no matter.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Well, let's do a little quick fire. I want to introduce people to you kind of the way that you see faith.
So here's what we're going to do. A quick fire. It's going to be like the Bible character. That's most likely two.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Who is the person in the Bible most likely to host the podcast? And what is it called?
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Okay, so listen, I know you're probably not supposed to have a favorite disciple. Mine is, of course, Peter, because no one. Who makes more erratic decisions without thinking it all the way through. It's my. He's my soul sister. But in Peter. And so it's Peter because he's gonna make a very raw, reactive. He's gonna put guests on their heels. It for sure will be an interview podcast.
It's. He's also gonna be a fun hang, though. He's also gonna. He's gonna have serious questions, but he's also gonna want to be like, what's your favorite thing to put in chili? You know, like, he's going to be a fun hang. But I was thinking, like, when I think of names, the main thing I always think of Peter is like, he would just be called I ran faster, actually, because he does feel like a guy who's like, I just don't remember it that way. Like, John. I do think I ran faster.
And John's just so, you know, enneagram for. You'd be like, okay, if that's what you need to think, that's fine. And so that. Or maybe like sinking faith.
Like sinking faith.
[00:04:15] Speaker B: There it is.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Strong foundation. Yeah. There's something there with rock.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah, the wrong thing with rock.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: There's something with rock. There's something in there. Yeah.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: I definitely thought Paul. I was like, Paul's is gonna do one. And half of it is gonna be hot takes, and the other half of it is gonna be him coming back and being like, no, that's not what I meant.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Actually, you guys, every episode will be a response to the previous episode. Yes. I'm like, y' all misunderstood me. Like, you didn't understand what I was trying to say about my Favorite thing that I put in chili. You weren't understanding me. Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: All right. Who would be the Bible character most likely to have a YouTube skincare channel?
[00:04:50] Speaker A: Okay, this was my favorite because obviously you and I both share a love of all things skincare. And so it's obviously going to be naming. Look, deep cut Second Kings, chapter five. I know this is probably not. Not everybody goes there, but Naaman, in that story, he is a commander in the king's army.
He gets leprosy, okay? And he goes like. And the funny thing is, in the process of this, there's like an aside in the scripture of being like, and we took a girl captive, and now she works for Naaman's wife. And she then is like, hey, you know that. That prophet, he can. He can heal your leprosy. He was like, ah, great point. Get back to serving.
You don't get to be free. But great. And then he goes to the king and he's like, hey, can I go see this? Can I have, like, two days off PTO to go see this?
Elisha, obviously. Elisha. And he. And the king is like, yeah, here's some money. Here's some Uber cash. Here is my Marriott points, and you can go and do it. And so he does. And of course, Elisha does heal him. And it says in the passage that he has the skin like that of a young boy.
Look.
And so I do think Naaman would be like, okay, here's you guys. Obviously, you know my history. I had leprosy, but now my. How do I maintain this? And it just like a lot of. I'm thinking either glowy with you.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Which feels right for his YouTube channel, saved by the Serum, the book of exfoliations. There's lots of ways we can go for this YouTube channel, but.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: And of course, we're going to get either some clay or some water or something so that he can, like, hold it up to the camera real close and let people like. This is. Here's my affiliate link. So you too can have skin like a young boy.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: And he's going to struggle because he's going to be like, I do want to use chemicals, but I do get the value of beef tallow. Like, he himself, Damon is going to struggle with the audience, to be sure. Like, to be sure. Yes.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: All right, who is most likely to thrive on TikTok, and what would their niche be?
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Okay, so my TikTok, which I adore. It's my favorite way to waste my time. And my FYP is carefully curated as most People are as a skin care fragrance.
A little bit of readers. Like, I'm on book talk, but also, like, I have. I follow a ton of historians because I just love niche facts about art or about this building or whatever. And I love that. So. But the thing that all those creators have in common is that they're are so charismatic. They're so persuasive. Right. Because they, like, I'm like, I do think that renaissance art is the best art. It's not, but I think it once that art historian art list, when she tells me that it is, I'm like, oh, no, this is great. It doesn't have any people of color in it, but fantastic. I live in a little bit. But so I was thinking in the Bible, that has to be Esther, who's the most persuasive of all. Like, I mean, you persuade a king to reverse a genocide, that seems like you can convince me to buy. You can convince me to buy from your TikTok shop. Like, for sure. Like, I'm going to get all the. The doodads that Esther uses in her kitchen. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to get that rolling bag so I can take my laundry from one room to the other, and she's going to thrive, which is awful because she's already rich. She doesn't need to do all that. That's right. Alas. Yeah.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Well, we. We do know that the rich women on TikTok are. It's really important to them to just make sure other rich women also make money. So.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Right. No, that's exactly.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: It works.
It works. All right. Who would be the best bachelor contestant and who would they send home on night one?
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Okay, so part of my unfortunate villain origin story is recapping the bachelor for years, but I. I'm actually going to switch and go to the bachelorette. Who would be the worst contestant on the Bachelorette? And it's Solomon. I mean, hands down. And here's why Solomon would make it. I mean, he would be the best bachelor contestant because he would make it to hometowns easily. Charming, wise, hot. We know Solomon was hot. There's no way, like, a mid man can't write that book. I'm so sorry. Yeah, but he's hot and he's gonna make it, but then it's gonna be more complicated than he can handle. So he will actually self eliminate. He'll be like, I can't commit to one woman.
Because we know he can't. Okay? We know scripturally he can't. And so he Will then. But because he's such a. I get. And he's so good on camera. ABC will choose him to be the Bachelor, and he will become the bachelor. Now he will be a problem because he will not want to send anybody home because he sure does like a lot of ladies at the same time. Okay. But his worst contestant on his season will be Rahab because she is not putting up with any of this. S. Word. I'll tell you that right now.
I think about. She's like, I'm not here to make friends, but I'm also not here for this baddie. He's. He's overrated. Like, why are we even trying for this guy? Guys, be confident in yourself. And so she will. Of course, the producers will send her home. She'll have to go.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: That will definitely be the most unprecedented season ever. When Samson does decide at the end that he is the most shocking rose.
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Ceremony every night where he's like, no one's going home this week either. Yeah.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: He just crushes the roses. He's like, guess what?
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Nope, Nope. You all get to stay. Yeah.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: All right, Last one in our little quick fire. Who would be a swifty.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: Okay. This was too easy, actually. And I know because you're thinking it's David. But see, the problem is David will. He will. But he will think he could do all this better. Like, he's just like, I know how to lament better than this. I know how to be sad in a song better than this. And so he would just be competitive with Taylor. But it is Jeremiah, the weeping prophet. Talk about somebody in their folklore era, like, hands down, like, just plays cardigan on a loop because it's like, I feel like an old cardigan under the bed, too.
Yeah.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: I love it. Well, thank you for playing a little fun little game with me. Help our listeners to get to know you a little bit more, if they don't already.
But tell us about this connection that you see between pop culture and faith and how this started for you.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Okay, so this is. I. There's. So I thought you. You sent me this question ahead of time so I could think about, because this is a really complicated question, but I didn't think would be. And then as I got into it, I was like, oh, my gosh. So for. For. In terms of professionally, yes. Which that sounds weird to say in terms of my professional faith, but they're all connected. Right? And so I. Because I really did think growing up, the only way that you're in ministry is in classical church. You might could be at a nonprofit, but it has to be Jesus 100% in the mission statement. And so I struggled with that for a long time because I just didn't know. And when I, and when I would try and I was on staff at a chur. I was a youth minister for three years. I worked in a faith based nonprofit.
I was a social worker for many years. I've retired and gone on to much worse work in terms of heaven, heavenly reward. But I just didn't know how to do it any other way. And then what happened was as we started making this pop culture show, which is ridiculous to think about the ministry of it, but suddenly people would be like, oh no, you're like, you're who I listen to my. I just got diagnosed with cancer and I'm doing treatments back to chemo. Y' all are who I need in my ears. Yeah. In this moment. And it was so kind one for anyone to even take the time to say that kind of thing. But it was like, oh well, comedy weirdly can be some kind of ministry. But then what actually made it this fine tuned moment was we did an episode in 2017 on twins and pop culture because I, you know, to know me is to know that I am obsessed with all things twins now. Not those garbage fraternal twins. Right. That's embarrassing. You just were a bigger burden to your family because you came at the same time. But identical twins, oh my gosh. And, and then there's such a, you know, you've got in pop culture, I mean there's so many. There's an evil twin, there's the polar opposite twin, there's the hidden twin you didn't know about and you meet at summer camp and they have a British accent and no one asked. Why did their parents try to not ever let them see each other? Are these good parents? They're not. Okay.
But people who play their own twin, like we had this year, we had Sinners where Michael Bay Jordan, we get two of him, which, what a gift, right?
And then you have creepy twins, secret twins.
You know, Ashton Kutcher is a twin. Scarlett Johansson is a twin. Vin Diesel is a twin.
Gisele Bunchen is a twin. Talk about the worst. It's fraternal. Talk about the worst situation ever.
But we made this episode and we did kind of the pantheon, the Mount Rushmore of pop culture twins. Yeah. Obviously Mario and Luigi, if you didn't know they're twins, they're fraternal, but you know, not as impressive. Phoebe and Ursula from Friends, Luke And Leia from Star Wars. And then our last option was Jacob and Esau, which is so random to include, but they're part of pop culture. And we ended up. We kind of focused really too much on the stew of it all. We just focused on the stew in that episode. But we just kind of retold the story for our listeners who would have no idea who Jacob and Esau was. And we got a DM that week where somebody said, I would listen to you recap the whole Bible. Like, because that was so stupid and ridiculous, but it was so fun. And I felt like, I know who they are now. Yes. And that. So six months later, we launched a show that at the time was called the Bible Binge. It's now called Faith Adjacent. We do the Bible Binge.
We recap the Bible. And then we. That first episode we did on Noah. And so Knox and I just recorded it. We. We just read the scripture and made. Com. We basically did a. But not director's commentary, just street walker commentary on. Why does it say it like that? What does that even mean? And we sent it to, like, 10 pastors, divinity professors, Bible study editors. And we said, what's your feedback on this? And listen, two people were like, don't do it. This is ridiculous. This will come back to haunt you.
And then we got two best tips, which, because we didn't agree, we didn't listen to either of them. So we wish them the best. But one person, Amanda Baba Williams, who's the head of she Reads Truth, she came back and she was like. Because one of our things is when we would recap a story, we would cast the characters like, we would cast them with celebrities so that you could just picture somebody in your mind, which, by the way, is rife with problems, because things come out about celebrities, and suddenly Morgan Freeman can't be the voice of God anymore.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Because he's a problem with journalists. So we did. We. We. She said, don't cast Jesus. Like, just don't ever cast Jesus. We never did. So good tip from Amanda. And then when Bible's your middle name, you got to be like, yeah, you got to take her advice. And. But then our friend Elizabeth, who worked at Lifeway as a Bible study editor, she was like.
She just. Instead of saying this was good or this was bad, she just timestamped all the things she felt like we got wrong and wrote down like, this is wrong. This is not how this was. And so we were like, oh, you know what? We need somebody who will come on in the End of every episode, a Bible scholar who will tell us what we got wrong. And we called that segment a gentle rebuke. And it ended up being such a success for us. And. And we were doing something weird. And listen, a lot of people didn't like it in the beginning, and by that I mean evangelical Christians, because it just felt. It felt like on the verge of sacrilege, which, to be fair, it was. And so, because when you pass Brad Pitt as Moses, it's. I get it. It's a problem. Right? I get it. It's really a problem. Now. When we did that, we did not know, but it is. We would not do that again. But.
And so we. And so we did about 100 stories. No offense to the Bible, but Timothy doesn't have any really cool things happen to him other than like his mom and aunt being great. But like, other than that. Like, so we did about 100 stories and then we pivoted. Pivoted to faith adjacent, where we just talked about faith adjacent topics. And so I loved.
It was such a neat thing to be able to be like, we can bring you pop culture soaked conversations, but Jesus is all over it. And that was such a. It was such a delight to see that, because I had experienced that, that you could. That the sacred is everywhere. And the sacred can be found in so many things. And it's not just limited to what, I will be honest with you, is mediocre movies and TV shows created by Christians, you know, so there's a lot of great faith conversations happening in lots of places that are not labeled faith.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: So did you have to work really hard at the beginning, Jamie, to like, find the sacred in the, in pop culture and in things, or did it just kind of like naturally come to you?
[00:17:49] Speaker A: No, sure. No, there's always work and everything. Right. And I, I think it was difficult sometimes to be like, are we trying too hard? I just. I literally just watched a tick tock last night where they were saying that Jake. Mr. Marley in.
In Home Alone. The old man in Home Alone. Yes, yes, that loves x4 is Jesus. Is Jesus. And I was like. And somebody sent it to me and said, do you think this is right? And I said, I could convince you that anybody in that movie is Jesus. The mom is Jesus, the kid with the milk is Jesus. Like, I can make everybody Jesus if I need to. And so there is a. A little bit of that. Like, I mean, I do think Christians are really good at finding something from nothing. I mean, like, isn't that the Lord? And. Because we know that the Lord is part of everything and it's everywhere. Sometimes we manipulate that a little bit, me included, and.
But it wasn't it. But once you get in the rhythm of it and you kind of change your mindset about like, no, this isn't separate from what. Now listen, is every episode of the Bachelor holy? No. No. But are there lessons that we can take from our holy education, our more classical holy education, and see something about rejection and choice? Yeah, I mean, I could manipulate the heck out of that. Plus, look at how many people come out of the Bachelor franchise and become famous rich Christians.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:09] Speaker A: Maddie Pruitt, you know you do.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Well, if pop culture is not meant to give us answers, but maybe to give us language, is there a specific piece of media content that's given you language for something that maybe your faith had not?
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Listen, that's such a good question, because I do think that's true. You're not going to find the answers in a Nicole Kidman, a six episode limited series on hbo. Right. It won't serve you in every way, but I think for me, and I'll. I'll give an example of. Because I do think the sacred is everywhere. The movie Heretic, it came out in 2024. It's a horror film starring Hugh Grant. It was huge critical and commercial success.
And this movie, it is about two LDS Latter Day Saint missionaries who go to this house of Hugh Grant, Mr. Reed. They go to Mr. Reed's house and they want to convert him. This is a normal thing that LDS missionaries do. And what I loved about that is a couple things.
First of all, it gave me language that LDS missionaries aren't just one thing. They are not just 2D. Because listen, a lot of what we get about the LDS Church is either the secret lives of Mormon wives.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Which they would also say, that's not us as a rule. Or we get only trad wives who are all part of the Mormon faith. Or we get just kind of like, here's a guy on a bike and a tie and that's it. And it. There's no depth to it. There's no nuance. So one, I think these two characters that are these two young women who are LDS miniature missionaries, they're so robust, they're nuanced, they have depth. And I think that's really important for any arm of faith to see themselves represented in pop culture. I think pop culture has done a lot for the church of being like. Like conclave did a lot for the Catholic Church. Being like, isn't it kooky like, this doesn't have to always look the same way.
And then one of the things, it is a horror film. So let me be super clear. There's going to be a lot of death and gore, but.
But they're having a whole conversation about Joseph Smith and the LDS Church, and then it ends up in a kind of a cat mouse within the house. They're locked in the house. I'm not spoiling too much, but he's asked, he puts these two doors and he says, you have to go through one of the doors. And in that scene, she's like, well, we have to choose the door on the right because we choose the right. Which is a saying that you learn in primary in the LDS Church. And let's be honest, in a lot of places, choose the right door. Yeah. And we kind of then equate right with correct and left with wrong. Right. And we can even go to Scripture and kind of see that supported and so. And then it becomes a whole part of your narrative. So that was helpful to go, okay, why does this always feel like I didn't always connect the dots of, like, why do we always think right is correct? And by that I mean directionally, but like. But also like figuratively, too. And then I think the other thing is they get to another set of doors, and one of the doors is labeled belief and one is labeled disbelief. And Sister Barnes, one of the missionaries, says, but both doors lead to the same place, don't they?
Which is a whole other conversation about.
I mean, you can get as literal as eternity, but you can get, as you know, figuratively as well. This will lead to goodness also, or happiness also, or joy also. It doesn't always have to define that there's only what and that there's only one right door. I. I don't know. That movie, it just put words to so many things that I think are these lofty spiritual concepts that we don't always have concrete boundaries around. And I thought, for me, I was like, oh, I love. I mean, listen, we live in a space where we love the uncertainty of everything now. Like, we thrive in it. And so that was like, oh, that's good. That's another great visual of some of the uncertainty of a faith.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And I think it gives us not only language, but opportunity to have these conversations. Like, there are a lot of people that, if you're like, hey, I'm going to take this. Whatever the concept is, right. If it's right and left and why we think right is Always Right. There's not always a framework for having that conversation without being like, here's a scripture, Here's a Bible bomb I'm going to throw at you. And so now, don't you want to talk about this? And people are like, no, not even a little bit. But if you can talk about it in the context of a movie, you can really have the exact same conversation, but in a way that's a little bit more attractive and appealing and doesn't seem so harsh.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: Oh, and the stakes are so low because it's like, I'm talking about Hugh Grant, the guy from Love, actually the prime minister. Like, that's what, you know, it's not as serious. And for us, I think the LDS Church is a great example, even in our own faith evolution. Because when we started the podcasts, we started at seven years, almost eight years ago. And when we started it, we were all in different places in our faith. I always credit the show for my own.
I'm like, the show ruined my faith. It didn't, but it helped me deconstruct and all the things. And I'm very happy for that. But we would often talk about Christians, and then we would say Catholics.
Yes. It was like, oh, wait, that's absurd. And these lovely, generous, patient Catholics would be like, hey, you know, we're Christians, too. And we're like, oh, yeah, no, no, you know what we mean. And like, no, we don't know what you mean. And then we would be the same thing. We would, you know, I don't even use the term Mormon very often. More. I use it more culturally than religiously because they really prefer the LDS Church. And I learned that from listeners who are members of the LDS Church. And so because we would say Christians and then Mormons, and it's like, again. And some of them would come to us and they were like, hey, you know, I mean, we. We have some different, you know, beliefs, but it's all not like, isn't this what you believe? And they would break down salvation to A and B. And they're like, well, we believe A and B. And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, yeah, you can be Christians. Like, suddenly I was like, you can have. You can be called Christians.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: You can come with us.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: I know. As if that was any part of my job, responsibility, believer.
But that's an example of, like, I would have never had those conversations in real life, probably, right? Because there's not a large LDS community where I live. And so, like, how would I have been in those conversations? And so it's it. I. You're exactly right. I just think pop culture, you can have so many weird conversations that you could never have necessarily in the pew at your church after a sermon.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Right.
A little behind the scenes information on this conversation. Last year I leaked some hints on social media that Jamie would be my first guest of the year, and so many of you reached out in excitement because you already love her. So I hope that you're loving this conversation. I'm thrilled to let your podcast worlds collide with this cross crossover episode. Please share it with everyone else who loves pop culture. Seeing God in unexpected places and reading entirely way too much meaning into books, movies and tv. We would love to have them join us here at Becoming Church. Also, because you have been sharing the show, it's growing in popularity and notoriety, which definitely helps some of the more popular guests take note. So while I've already got a great, great lineup planned for you in 2026, there's also the potential of possibility of even hosting a few of my dream guests. I will keep working on that, but please keep sharing episodes and tagging me at KristenMothler Young when you do so on social media.
Well, as you were talking about your process of kind of like deconstructing. Right. The podcast kind of like flipped your faith on its face.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Was there anything that you had to dismantle that then pop culture helped you heal from?
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, yes. Give me an example.
So I grew up Southern Baptist, Evangelical. My parents were both Sunday school teachers for 40. 40 years. 40 years actively involved. My mother was a Sunday school teacher until she was asked to not be a Sunday school teacher anymore because she was a lady.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Oh, Jan.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: Which was really. Which was. And my mother's never returned to church. She still loves the Lord. We do not, we do not blame her. So. But when I was growing up, you just, it was the secular and the sacred and they were very different. And it was black and white. And I the first cassette tape I bought as a kid, I had enough birthday money in 1984, a real year, where the first cassette tapes I bought were Straight Ahead by Amy Grant and She's so Unusual by Cyndi Lauper. And truly there is no moment that's more defined in my life of being who I am at heart.
But the church did not like that because to be fair, she bop is about self pleasure. I do get that now. But Jan and I did not know that at 8 years old, so. But I she was the soundtrack of my church childhood. Amy Grant, you know who among us didn't sing the alto part? And El should I. In a weird church solo with two friends, none of whom can sing right.
On a Sunday night because they're not gonna let you have a Sunday morning spot. Oh, no, you gotta. You gotta be a Sunday night if you're like me and can't actually sing.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: So, yeah, we performed this, actually at school. I took my Amy Grant cassette to, like, after school because, you know, we stayed for, like, the aftercare program, ma'.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: Am.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: We bought glitter top hats to sing the song hats. And we would make all the other kids and teachers sit down and watch us perform.
Amy. I don't know.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: And after school is a. Like, it's a. It's the purge, right? There are no rules.
Like, it's just. And so they're gonna let you sing.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: In hats because they're like, entertain them for us. We don't want to.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: We're just trying to get to 5 o'.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: Clock.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: We're just trying to get to 5 o'. Clock.
Well, in. In 1991, she releases an album called Heart in Motion, which. Baby. Baby.
[00:29:04] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: She's in a velvet baby doll dress. She looks stunning. She's got those curls. It's just everything. And I. She's a pop star. And not only is she a pop star, for those who don't know, Amy Grant, like, got nominated for record and song of the year in the Grammys. Not the Dove, Right. But the Grant. Because, let me tell you, when the Dove Awards, because the Christian church abandoned her, not only because she started making secular pop music, but then a few short years later, she would have the audacity to get divorced.
And then a year later, Mary Vince Gill. And so.
And so for me, that was really hard because I was like, amy Grant can hold the sacred and the secular. Why can't I? And I couldn't. My church was very. Brother Randy was very clear that you've got to.
You have to get rid of all of this. Like, you can't have both. And.
And if it was an edict to abandon Amy Grant. And then in 2013, truly, at the beginning of the podcast, starting a podcast and figuring out my way in the church, she did an interview with Pride Source, an LGBTQ outlet, and talked about coming out as affirming. And it was just. It wasn't. There was no fanfare. It was just. And Amy gave me permission. I know that sounds, like, so absurd, but she gave me permission to hold both. That you could really love God and still have a hymns album. Do really well, you know, and still love God and still hold space for so many people in the world. And look, it all came to fruition last, like, Annie Downs, a great podcaster as well.
She had a 10th anniversary live show of 10 years of her podcast at the Ryman in Nashville. And she had the audacity to invite us, the most hedonistic people she knows, Knox and I. But she's always been really kind to us. And we did a game on the show, and she just said, hey, there's going to be a surprise guest. I was like, okay. And listen, I 100 thought it was gonna be like, Dave Barnes.
Yeah, right. Like, I was just like, that's what it's gonna be, right? He'll be Santa. Let's. That's what it'll happen. Right? And then out came Amy effing Grant, and I.
You just.
Dear listener, you have no. I hid behind a curtain at the Ryman. I started to cry.
It was like. It was overwhelming. And then when we walked back out, I just said. I just. I just said. I said, I just need you to know you have been so elemental in my faith, and I just want to know your ministry has always mattered since 1984 in my life. And it was just a pressure, and she was so, of course, generous to be like, okay, calm down. Like, maybe don't stand so close to me. Thank you.
But it was such a gift. And so she's helped me dismantle she as her own evolution into pop culture and becoming this part of this other space, like being on mtv. She was on mtv.
And for her to do that and it. Meet me where I was and go, hey, no, there's a path here. Like, I'll show you the way. Yeah. And she did. She did.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Oh, well. And you guys are doing it through your show as well. So I just want to say thank you. Like, all that. That Amy Grant kind of led the way for you. I think what I love about faith adjacent, and you and Aaron and Evan and Knox when he's there, is that you guys are doing the same thing. But you're not saying, like, hey, follow our exact steps.
You're saying, it's possible, and here's a path, and you can bring these things together and, like, come walk with us and find a way that works for you to do it. But, like, the path is so wide.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Gosh, the path is so wide. And the idea that, like, we just don't have to be prescriptive, I think that that is a tendency of the church and those of Us in it who love it. I think it is. We think it's just easier if it's clear.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: Yes, and yes.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: And yes. Maybe it is easier. Yeah. Yeah. And it would be easier if it was clear, and it's just not. And I actually think that it does exactly what you said. It widens that road and it paves so many extra lanes to go. It doesn't have to be the lane you're in. Yeah, it can be the fourth lane over.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: And you can stay in yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: No, it's definitely easier to be a Christian and to believe when everything is clear and handed to you.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: I miss it, actually. I know. Some days.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: Some days.
Well, we've talked about how, you know, pop culture can kind of disciple people in a way that, like, traditional Christianity can't. Like having these conversations. Right. Do you see any pop culture trends that are revealing? Maybe people's, like, hunger for something deeper.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, yes. Like, I.
I think you see the success of, like, the third Knives Out. Okay. So I haven't seen it yet, so.
[00:33:53] Speaker B: Don'T spoil it for me.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: I will not spoil anything for you. But you're. I can't wait. You're freaking going to love it, so.
But the third dives out, which is Wake Up, Dead Man. It's on Netflix, and it is profoundly sacred. Now, I'm a big fan of the director Rian Johnson.
I loved all. I loved the previous two Knives Out.
I do love a kooky caper, but that's well done. Has a great script, has great vision, which Ryan Johnson really has. But it's not just sacred because it's set in a church parish, which it is, but it's having a really interesting conversation about the church as an institution and from the perspective of, like, not only the priest, the person who's in charge at the building, but also the parishioners, the people who volunteer at the church, the people who are on staff at the church, and the people who love God but don't necessarily love that building or the people in it. Always it is. And. And there's a murder. You know what I mean? Like, and there's a weird murder. And so it's kind of this. I think that there's this trend towards we can have faith conversations in movies that don't star Kirk Cameron, that star Josh o' Connor and Daniel Craig and Glenn Close. We can have really interesting, because I think it's a reminder that there are a lot of people in Hollywood, other than Scott Baio, who are Christians. Like who. Their faith is an important component of their life. It just may not look like the traditional faith that we see from the Cameron family as a whole. Right.
Um. And so I think it resonates with folks not necessarily for questioning God, but religion and giving space to be like, hey, you can. Because I think that's the biggest thing. The criticisms I've gotten when I've talked about deconstruction is I just can't believe you've abandoned God. And it's like, oh, no. Like, actually, we're tighter. Yeah. Like we're closer than ever. I just don't. Like, I don't always, like, you know, the building. Right. Or. And not even the building, but like just the people, kind of the artifice of, you know, just institutionalized religion. So. Yeah. Yeah. That. I think that.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: Well, I think too, it, again, gets to a deeper. Like seeing what people are hungry for, even if they maybe don't realize it yet.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: That's right. That's right.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Helping them find that language. What is something, Jamie, that maybe the evangelicals tried to, like, purity culture out of you? That's turned out to be really spiritually helpful.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: Listen, so many things, like, all. Can we be honest? All the fun things.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: Right, Right.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: But for me, it was really secular music. Like, talking earlier about, like, I had to. I had to burn those CD. I can have Garth Brooks CDs. Friends in low places. What are they doing down there? Like, so I had to. I. I mean, picture it. I'm at a. See you at the pole.
I am wearing a. At my Alabama public high school wearing a WWJD bracelet and a Christian T shirt that says get right or get left.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Okay, okay. I had a. With a couple of these T shirts.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: Yeah, you did. You did. Of course.
And what is crazy is I was burning CDs after school at this. As a. As a. Oh, my. Like, I was. It was like my burning bush. Yeah. And I was like.
I look back on that, I go, what a dummy. Like, what a dummy. But listen, a dummy without a fully developed brain who was wildly influenced by her.
Her pastor. Do you know what I mean? And her. And the church and the church she attended.
But what happened was I went to college and let me tell you, most of my dad. And it's a Methodist school. And he was like, I'm really worried about your faith because of the Methodist. You know, your mom was Methodist before I got to her. And so. Which she was. Right. And. But I went to college and I was introduced to Tori Amos. The Granberries, Tracy Chapman, God forbid, the Indigo Girls, who literally played concerts on our campus because that's where they went to college. Yeah.
And if you don't think God will meet you in the middle of Patty Griffin singing Let Him Fly on a Living With Ghosts live album, guys, Highly recommend. Please put in the show notes.
I, I, if you don't think the Holy Spirit can move in that, then, then Holy Spirit's not your advisor. Like, I'm just gonna be honest with you. You need to second guess your faith because it just. I was like, oh, no, this music is so good. And I'm not saying that I don't listen to traditionally Christian music at times, but sometimes I can be super chaotic and, and I can go, oh, no, no, I can listen. No, I, This Ariana Grande song is. Also has some really interesting thoughts about faith.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: And, and, which is absurd, but also very true. So they tried it, they tried to take secular music for me and I. You're going to, you're going to take Rihanna from my Cold Dead hand. Yes, I'll tell you that. Yes.
[00:38:46] Speaker B: Listen, I have some very angsty playlists that, that, that bring me closer to, to God because I'm like, I actually need this salty language to get out everything that is inside of me so I can find Jesus again. And Chris Tomlin is not going to help me that in this moment, actually.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: No. He serves a different purpose. He has. He's For a different moment.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah, sure is.
Well, you guys talk on the show a lot about changing your mind and helping people to have that freedom and permission to do so.
Is there a major thing about your faith that you've like that you've changed your mind on, you know, not just like everything, but. Is there one particular thing?
[00:39:27] Speaker A: No, there is. And I, because obviously through the. Because Knox, my partner, he. Business partner. Yeah. He wrote a book called All Things Reconsidered, and I wrote the foreword for it. So I had to read the book. You have to read the book, right?
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: And I was like, he's changing my mind on everything. Including, Including Big Bird.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Big Bird.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Complicated, right?
I know. And he, but he definitely, he was ahead of me in this process, so he really challenged me in the best ways as we would discuss these Bible stories. And so through the journey of faith adjacent. And not that if you listen, you're going to deconstruct. It doesn't. It's not like a slow red pill that you take as you. With every episode. But I, I've changed on a lot of things. You know, I'm affirming now. I'm egalitarian. I don't, I don't. I don't believe in the doctrine of inerrancy. But I would say the thing that's been the weirdest, that's actually differentiated me even from my peers at work is I've become an open theist.
Listen, I. I've always had a whiff of Calvinism about me. No offense to the RC Sproul lovers of the world, but you know, that it's kind of. The theory was, you know, God's good even if it doesn't feel that way. Now, I do think that's true, and I like that. But it. I never could reconcile the foreknowledge of God with free will. I just. And I need it. I don't know why I needed. I needed to have a connection. I was like, why can he know and have all the bad things? Yeah, like, why can he know the bad things are coming when he could stop the bad thing? It just really.
It, as my mom would say, it stuck in my crawl because I couldn't understand how that loving God. And I know that a lot of you could say, I can DM you and explain to you, and I welcome that. Please do.
But open theism takes a different angle.
That evil is not the script. Right. It's. It's that it's. Evil is what happens when we misuse our free will. And kind of like it's Adam and Eve and it's from the beginning. It's like Adam and Eve chose the fruit. He knew the outcome of that. Yeah. And it's like, do we. Do we think God hopes or do we not? Like, I don't know. Or is. Can we. Can God be surprised? There are scriptures that support that, so. But it's also one of those things where we have a motto at our company, which is, in conclusion, no one knows, but we just don't. That's why we try to hold it all loosely. And for me, that's. It's like, could I be wrong about open theism? Yes, 100%. Will it mean I spend eternity in hell? I don't know. Like, do I believe in hell? These are whole conversations we can. We can have. Like, I don't know. And so I. And I. And I'm okay with not knowing. Yeah.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: I wasn't always, but now that's exactly the thing. We have to be okay with not knowing. We have to be okay with, like, the uncertainty of all of it.
[00:42:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: So, yeah, I did A sermon last year, and I basically was like, you know, God was like, hey, free will and find out. And then that has become a thing now.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: I love that. Oh, I love that.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: I literally texted my friend Jeff when I was prepping, and I was like, how do I say? Like, fafo right from the pulpit?
And so then I came. I he perfect.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. I want that on a T shirt. Please sell that in a shop.
[00:42:41] Speaker B: I have parents that now are like, people say that to their kids, their youth are like, hey, free will and find out. You sure you want to make that decision?
[00:42:48] Speaker A: It's perfect. It's perfect. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:42:51] Speaker B: All right, Jamie, we are coming to the end here, but I want to ask you really quick about the church.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: The podcast called Becoming Church. I want to know what is a green light that you see happening in the church right now, and what is a red light? Just one. Just pick one that you see happening in the church that you wish more people would, like, wake up to or.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: You know, stop, listen. I think a green light is. I've been so impressed at the move towards mutual aid as. As a recovering social worker, you know, I serve on the boards of a couple of nonprofits, and there can be a lot of weirdness around giving, and there can be a lot of mystery around nonprofits and how do they spend their dollars and are they good stewards of the money? And do I just give to the church and hope that the church supports local orgs? And. But what I've seen is when people have a need, like, I. I rallied some followers to do a fundraiser for just people in our that were following me who had needs during the winter. And I was like, you just Venmo me money, and I'll send. I'll make a little form. I'll, you know, I put on my social worker hat, and I was like, I'll put up a form. Together, people can commit. Within three hours, 250 families had filled out the form with these detailed needs of heartbreak.
And I always say the crazy part about it was probably 90% of those families wrote lengthy notes of how they wish they weren't in this situation. But this is what happened. And it was unexpected and whatever. And it was a lot of health cost and unexpected rent hikes and things like that. And I just ask and look, that takes a trust to be like, hey, Venmo me the money.
And I. I'm a classic scam that the Internet warns you about, right? But I was like, venmoed me the money. And in the end, it was $140,000 that my small group of followers sent in. And we were able to send out money to all of those 250 families. And, and that was a lot of those people are believers who go, I'm not afraid to like take my Venmo class action settlement money that's been sent to my Venmo for Facebook and go give it to someone who might can pay their bill today rather than working through. And I, I love nonprofits. I still am a wild supporter of non profits, both in word and in wallet. But I also see the benefit of, like, when someone needs to pay their light bill, they cannot wait to go through a month long process to get that light bill paid. They need it paid today. So I love that. And then my red light, listen, my red light of the church is, I'm gonna be honest with you, it's holding hands when we pray. We have to stop this as a nation.
I don't want to hold, I don't want to hold Gary's hand in the pew next to me when we pray. I don't want to do it in small group. I don't want to do it in Bible study. I've told my Bible study over and over, I will not. They're all Southern Baptist and I'm a method they let in. And I go, listen, I'm not going to hold your hand. We've gone over this. You've not even washed them. You've been picking your teeth. This whole study, this whole experiencing God book. I'm not going to hold your hand. So I would like that. Maybe also, maybe we could hug less. Not everybody likes to hug. I know, Listen, I know you're a hugger. Everything about you says you're a hugger. And not everybody loves to hug. Listen, I'm five foot two and that's a lie. I'm five foot one.
I hug everyone at their breast. And I don't want to hug you. I just don't want to hug you. And it's okay. Even that's a side hug. People like to squeeze too hard. I'm frail. I'm old and frail. Thank you.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: Okay, see, I was with you on the holding hands. I'm like, even post coveted, people are still holding hands. Like, we have, we have stopped that and we have not gone back.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: I like that you're like, I understand why we don't touch fingers, but I want to touch your whole body. I do.
No, no. See, it's not even sensible when you think about it.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: I do. Listen, this is just one of those things that we're gonna have to just agree to disagree, you know?
[00:46:34] Speaker A: Yeah. You have your faith. See, that's the beauty. Church.
That can be the beauty of the church.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: That's right. I. Jamie, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the listeners become the church to the people around them?
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Listen, I think it goes back to. My green light is, you know, I do think we. We really let Amos be an example for us. I think we let him get aside because we're like, oh, no, these are the quick quickbooks I get through when I read the Bible through in a year. Right. But there's a reason he talks about justice rolling down like waters. And I do think justice can be a practice of worship. I. I believe that wholeheartedly. And there's so many ways you can do that. You're gonna think that there's only one way that it has to be like, I have to call my senator. I have to be at a protest. It can be those things 100%. But it also can be like, at your local level, going to your. Going to a board meeting, a school board meeting, going to a city council meeting, finding out what are the needs in your community beyond politics. Right.
But it also can be, you know, voting and organizing people. The local level matters so much. We talk so much about faith. At the federal level, it's great. And there's a. We need to advocate at every level. But there's a lot of work that can be done by volunteering at a justice organization, giving a monthly donation to an organization that's feeding the hungry. There are lots of ways we can do that. And that is all worship. It is all worship. Yeah.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: I love that. There's actually a book coming out this fall that talks about that in the chapter on worship. So we love it.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Okay. We cannot wait. We cannot wait to pre order. We're very excited.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Jamie, you are a delight and a treasure. I absolutely adore you. And I'm just truly, truly grateful for the work that you guys are doing. It is fun and it is funny, and I listen to you more than anyone that I live with in my house.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: Listen. And let me say to you, and I think this is true for probably many of the listeners, you as someone who has distanced herself from the. The parts of the church that were really hard. Yeah. And. And not just to make it easy, but to go, oh, these are not hard. They're not just hard, they're wrong.
Sometimes it can be hard for me to follow pastors and to follow Christian influencers, because sometimes it feels, you know, how like people start, you know, guys, victory, it's a V.
And if you turn the V upside down, like, when people talk in that voice, I can't. It's not for me. I know some of you are moved by it, but you are a delight to follow and a delight to listen to because I feel like you represent so many traditions in such a beautiful, modern way, and I think that's so necessary. I. I know it can be hard because I know there's probably people listening who have really disconnected from the church as a whole. Yeah. And this might be your only exposure to it on the regular, but what a gift that they can have this, because I think it is such a testament to the local church being so very valuable, and I think you represent that so well.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Well, thank you.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Thank you. Look at the two of us out here in our ministries that we neither of us plan for.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: I know exactly.
[00:49:52] Speaker B: If you didn't love Jamie before, I know that you definitely love her now. Faith Adjacent is my personal favorite podcast that I never miss an episode of. Jamie Knox, Aaron and Evan have incredibly rich Cumberland conversations that don't shy away from the reality of Christianity and what's going on in the real world. Listening to them over the past seven years has made me a better follower of Jesus. They have helped me to understand my faith better and to fall in love with all of it all over again in a new way. I highly recommend you checking them out if you don't already. Listen. Until next time. Thanks so much for being here and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Sam.
