Savannah Locke: The Evolution of Context

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Mockler Young, and my guest today is Savannah Locke. And you guys, she is a delight. I don't think I've ever smiled and laughed about the context of scripture this much ever. I know this episode will make you. You think, And I also hope it feels like a breath of fresh air in the midst of whatever else you're juggling or wrestling through today. Well, hello, Savannah. Welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Hi. Thanks for having me. All the way from North Carolina. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So excited to have you in your new home. All the things. I'm impressed that you moved in recently and have already decorated. [00:01:00] Speaker A: I am sort of like a crazy person. I know that this isn't a video podcast, so I'll describe it, but look like my trees have been everything already. Like, I really go all out for Christmas, so I just needed to make it happen. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Well, listen, you're gonna be happier, cheerier, unpacking boxes now because you've got what needs to be done. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Like elf. I'm literally like elf. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Just don't break down, like, an old rocking chair or anything, you know? Yeah. [00:01:26] Speaker A: I love Throwback from the movie. It was his rocking chair, I think. [00:01:32] Speaker B: It was, wasn't it, that he, like, made into a rocking horse. [00:01:35] Speaker A: It was an amazing throwback. I just wouldn't have ever thought of that scene. You didn't go for the staples. You went for True fan. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Went to it. Went to it. Listen, I remember seeing that movie in college, like, in the movie theater when it came out. So I'm an OG Elf fan. [00:01:50] Speaker A: I also remember seeing that movie. Yes. Which is wild. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Well, Savannah, you are a many a woman of many fashionable hats. You do so many things. I was trying to, like, write out a bio for you, and I was like, I can't. She does so many things. So you're a singer, you're a podcaster, you're a writer, and you have your master's of arts in theology. And so I want to know which of these roles surprises you the most. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Also, literally, you could write a bio for me. That would be great, and I'll probably just use that for the rest of my life. [00:02:21] Speaker B: Perfect. Between me, you, and Chat, GPT, we can get this nailed down. [00:02:27] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you, Sam Allman, or whatever his name is. Okay, so probably podcasting, to be honest. Yeah. I have, like, the two facets within podcasting, too, because I did a show with Beth Allison Barr, who I'm sure a lot of your people will know. [00:02:43] Speaker B: We'Ve had her on the show. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Amazing. Yes. Yeah. So Beth and I did a show, a miniseries called all the Buried Women, which was all about the Southern Baptist Convention in their treatment towards women. And so we started that, like, in 2023, and I had never done a podcast in my life, and I was like, how hard can it be? Let's jump in. And I was like, oh, and we need lawyers because we're talking about this very litigious organization. That's why I'm like, Googling, like, how do you get lawyers for podcasts? I was Googling. So. So I did not know what I was doing with all the married women at all, but somehow we really pulled it out of our, you know, hats, which was great. And then now. Yeah. I'm a co host of a podcast called the Subtext with Lee Camp. And I would never have ever expected that either. The other things make sense, but the podcast thing, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know how I got here. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Same, honestly. And I know I'm like, now I'm in a studio and I have a fancy microphone and all the things, but it started with just going like, okay, like on zoom. We were like, how do we. We just need some platform to record. And so I just kind of taught myself. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:52] Speaker B: How to learn these things. [00:03:53] Speaker A: And you do look so official. Your mic looks amazing. [00:03:55] Speaker B: Thank you so much. I'm always, always, always wearing either sweatpants or yoga pants under whatever top I have on. So that's just a tip for you too. Always comfy on the bottom. [00:04:07] Speaker A: So smart. Yes, so smart. I love that. [00:04:10] Speaker B: So is podcasting your main thing? Like, what do you do in your typical day to day. [00:04:15] Speaker A: Okay, so I'm a songwriter in the Christian music world. And so that is like on the daily. What I'm doing. So I'm doing a lot of co writes and that is crow whites are typically from 10 to 2. And so I'll do like between two and four of those every week. And so that will be like a lot of the meat of my day. I'm working on my first book, so I signed a book deal. Yes, thank you. I know you're also doing your manuscript and it's so much work. So I've been working on my book and then I not only host the Subtext, but I also am a producer of it. So I'm doing all the episode briefs. So that kind of takes up all of my world. [00:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's a lot. I know. I think even people on my own team, like my own coworkers, don't really understand the magnitude of work that goes into the podcast. They're like, so you talk to people and then it's on the air. And I'm like, yes. And also, I put in so much time researching and do you want to. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Celebrate you because you sending those questions ahead of time, the prep work, like, so helpful. Like, it's so helpful to give people that. And I know why people don't, because I know it's hard and it's, like, very labor intensive. But, yes, a lot of people don't even realize the public that goes in on the front end and then, of course, all the stuff on the back end, too. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Well, I know I've been on interviews before, and there's no. There's nothing. They're like, we want you to come on and talk about, you know, women in leadership or whatever. And so I try to kind of, like, gather my thoughts, and then it goes in a different direction than I planned. And afterwards, I get to the end of it, and I'm like, I just sounded like an idiot. Like, I sounded like an idiot, and. [00:05:51] Speaker A: I had to also want to stay in your scope. It's like, you don't want to be like, oh, I'm not an expert on this stuff. But then if they're going down that direction, it's like, I guess I'll follow you, even though I have no business talking about this. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Yes. The realest thing. Have you ever had to go back when you've been interviewed in a show, have you ever had to go back and be like, take that out. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Take something out? [00:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:14] Speaker B: I did, actually. This is in a sermon, which is even worse. [00:06:18] Speaker A: No, so real. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Yes, it is even worse. I made a comment that in my heart of hearts, I very much believe. But also later, Holy Spirit was like, ma', am. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:29] Speaker B: Probably not the time and place. It was also not kind. And so we had to clip that. We had to pull that line out. [00:06:39] Speaker A: So real. Isn't it frustrating when that happened? [00:06:42] Speaker B: It's so frustrating. I was proud of myself, that I. That I was the one that caught it, that I didn't have to wait for, like, my lead pastor to be like that. I was the one that said, hey, let's do this. I'm proud of myself, but not super proud of myself because I'm also the one that said it, you know? [00:06:57] Speaker A: But you were also the one to correct it, which is nice. Yes. I hear what you're saying. [00:07:00] Speaker B: You're saying I kind of did both. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Here, but that's amazing. [00:07:05] Speaker B: So who are you? Maybe you can answer this question. Maybe you cannot. Who are you songwriting with or for? [00:07:13] Speaker A: That's really fine. I work with a lot of Christian artists that are on the periphery of Christian music. So, like, I don't know. Like, the most recent one that I just thought about was Rent Collective Experiment. They're this little, like, Irish band. They're not a literal Irish production. Big Irishman, and they're doing very well. But, yeah, I help, like, write a lot of their stuff. Their Christmas song, that's their Christmas single right now on the radio is a song that we wrote together, which is so fun. And then I work with just a lot of really great artists. Like, Sarah Kroger is a Catholic songwriter who goes on tour with Matt Mar. She's amazing. Just people like that. I love the emo songwriter types. Like, I love getting them in their feels and. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, I love it. Is there anybody in particular that you're like, I would love to work with this person, her writing? [00:07:59] Speaker A: In the music world, yes. In the music world, yes, for sure. Brandon Flowers is the lead singer of the Killer. [00:08:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:08:10] Speaker A: He is an insane songwriter. So he's Mormon, so. And a lot of people don't know this. He's Mormon, and so there's, like, a lot of religious imagery and, like, the Killer's music, but then also in his solo records, and the way he integrates, like, religion with just the grittiness of, like, he's from Utah, and, like, just this gritty, like, Utah language of, like, cigarettes and desert vibes and whatever. Like, it's magical how it blends together, and I would love to be in a writing room with him. [00:08:40] Speaker B: Okay. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:41] Speaker B: All right, Brandon, Call us. [00:08:42] Speaker A: Call us, Brandon. Oh, my God. I know you just sold your catalog for a billion dollars, but you have want to hang. Probably have something better to do. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:08:55] Speaker A: But who knows? [00:08:58] Speaker B: I love it. You also have worked with the outside of music. You've worked with Pete Ends, Beth, Allison Barr. Now you're working with Lee Camp. You were just with Sharon McMahon. [00:09:07] Speaker A: I know. [00:09:08] Speaker B: I'm like, look at Savannah go. Who not in the music industry do you want to work with? [00:09:14] Speaker A: Do you love Sharon? [00:09:15] Speaker B: Because, oh, my gosh. How do you not love Sharon? [00:09:18] Speaker A: I think I overwhelmed her a tiny bit, and I tried intentionally not to, and I'm just still myself, and I think it was too much. But we did have a full circle moment around Ludacris and it was great. It was fine. [00:09:31] Speaker B: And I'm like, she's like our history teacher who still points people to, like, the goodness of Jesus and it. And likes ludicrous. Like, how. How does not everyone love Sharon? [00:09:43] Speaker A: She holds a multiplicity. I know. I love her. Yeah, I know. I have gotten lucky. When you sent that question, I was like, ok, in the realm of, like, theology, is there anyone? And I've seriously gotten lucky because, like, all of my heroes, I basically got to meet in grad school because my master's, like you said, is in Anabaptist studies. And it's just kind of a small world. And so all the people and the authors who I read ended up teaching me. And I felt, like, really grateful for that. And so there's. I'm not saying that there aren't people that I athletically admire or something like that that I wouldn't love to meet, but I got really, really lucky because now looking back, I'm like, oh, all of, like, the iconic figures that are still living in the Anabaptist world, I got to learn from directly. [00:10:26] Speaker B: That is really cool. [00:10:27] Speaker A: But I do have this dream. This is so random. I'm about to tell you this. Do you know Brad Jersak? [00:10:33] Speaker B: I know the name. Brad Jersey. [00:10:35] Speaker A: He's a delight. He's amazing. He's from Canada. He's the president of this university called St. Stephen's University. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:41] Speaker A: And he's like, a friend. Like, so I know him. I kind of want to do a Camino trip with him. And I think that was the closest I could get in my mind of, like, what to dream. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:53] Speaker A: I want me and Brad to lead a Camino trip with people and us. Just walk through Spain with, like, 30 people and just see what happens. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Make it happen. [00:11:02] Speaker A: Come on. [00:11:03] Speaker B: You can do this. Sign me up. I'll go. Let's go. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Wouldn't that be fun? [00:11:09] Speaker B: It would be so fun. [00:11:10] Speaker A: And he's just so grounded and contemplative, and I'm just, like, fun. And so I'm like, if we just bring it together. Yep. Spiritual and really fun times, all in Spain. Yeah. That's all that I can offer in that question. I mean, I don't know. Who are you? Like, can you give me some examples of who you think through? [00:11:29] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I. I'm trying. I would love to get Beth Moore. Oh, Beth Moore is NT Wright. I would love to work with, somehow, learn from. Honestly, just be in his presence. Father Richard Rohr. [00:11:46] Speaker A: Ugh. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Like, there's So, I mean, there's so many people. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Okay, Richard Rohr, I'm adding to my death. Yes, 1000%. He feels so unattainable. Do you know what I mean? [00:11:55] Speaker B: They all feel unattainable to me. I'm like. But I'm gonna just. [00:11:58] Speaker A: I feel like, Beth, just get on Twitter. You'll be fine. Like, just start being like, Beth, it's time. Like, just, just find her. But Bridger just out in New Mexico. [00:12:10] Speaker B: I know. [00:12:10] Speaker A: I love that man. [00:12:12] Speaker B: I know. [00:12:13] Speaker A: Great one. [00:12:13] Speaker B: So many, so many amazing people. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Great teachers, all great. [00:12:17] Speaker B: I love the Internet more and more. Like, when we do it the right way, especially even social media, when we do it the right way, because we get to learn from these people more than we ever would, literally. [00:12:26] Speaker A: We would never be able to learn from NT Wright 40 years ago like this. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Never. [00:12:30] Speaker A: I know, I know. [00:12:32] Speaker B: It's amazing. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:33] Speaker B: What an era to live in right now. Amidst all the junk, there are some golden glimmers. [00:12:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:41] Speaker B: So you mentioned Anabaptist studies a couple times for people that are like, I have no idea what that means. What does that mean? [00:12:47] Speaker A: Okay, so do you know anything about the Anabaptist tradition? [00:12:51] Speaker B: I do not. [00:12:52] Speaker A: Okay, great. Okay, so just help me know if any of this isn't making sense. Okay, so there was the reformation in the 1500s where Martin Luther like nails the theses on the. Okay, so we know about this. And the Protestant church is born in separation from the Catholic Church, primarily over the issue of indulgences. Okay. So when that happens, it's what we now call the Reformation. While that was happening, there was a subset of people who agreed, we don't need to be doing these indulgences. We, like the Catholic Church has potentially lost its way. We have criticisms of this, but they looked at Martin Luther and said, you're not taking this far enough. And so they started what is called the radical Reformation. So the radical reformers are now the Anabaptist tradition. And they primarily split with Luther. And this is very simplified, but I'm just trying to give the brief version. But they primarily split with Luther over the issue of violence, because Luther didn't have an issue with violence and Anabaptist is a distinctly non violent tradition. Okay. And then second over the issue of like what we would now call church and state. So Luther, like, basically he became totally ingrained with like the German government and that became like the state religion. And so that is where the Anabaptist tradition was born. They were called the radical reformers. And Then it's been around since the Protestant Reformation. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Okay. Do you consider yourself a radical reformer? [00:14:14] Speaker A: Isn't that so dramatic? [00:14:16] Speaker B: But I do get to let's make T shirts. [00:14:19] Speaker A: But they were like, I mean they were literally dying for this. So like early Anabaptists were getting killed by fellow Protestants. So like they were called Anabaptists because they got re baptized as adults, whereas like others would be getting infant baptized into like the church, which was like the state sanctioned church. So whenever adults would get re baptized as Anabaptists, it was kind of saying like, we're not joining in with this state backed church tradition and instead we're like swearing our allegiance to this other thing entirely. And so it was radical at the time. Like, I mean people once again like Felix Mons, if you, if anyone's curious, go look up Felix Mons and how he got killed. Like literally they drowned him in a river by tying like weights to his like feet or whatever, all because he got re baptized as an adult. And so like at the time it was radical. I, I don't know. I want to be radical. I do think I'm too indoctrinated in the American system, if I'm honest. So would anyone look at my life and say she's radical? Probably not. So that's the most honest answer I can give. But do I want to be? Yes, I love it. [00:15:25] Speaker B: Listen, I'm sure that there are people that would look at your life and think that you're radical because the love of Jesus and the life of Jesus is radical and you live that out. [00:15:32] Speaker A: So yes, I would let other people describe me in that way and I would be thrilled. But for me, I don't know. [00:15:38] Speaker B: You're like, I don't know what, what was the, what was the dream when you're like, I want to do get my master's in Anabaptist studies. Like, did you have a specific thing you wanted to do with that? Or you're like, this is just interesting to me and I want to learn it. [00:15:51] Speaker A: Well, the reason I was drawn into the Anabaptist tradition is because when I had my first faith Crisis in my 20s, it was like a year after I got married and I told my husband, like, I don't believe in any of this anymore. I don't think it's real. And my husband said, and I still love you. And it just gave me this freedom to be able to say like, okay, I'm going to explore my faith. I'm going to figure out what I really believe. And all of that and. And what kind of brought me back into this Christian tradition were Anabaptist teachers. Now, I know that they were Anabaptist teachers who talked about the peacemaking way of God. And I think, for me, like, I'm very, like, disturbed by all of the violence in America and how the church is just generally silent on it and just doesn't have much to say around, like, gun violence and how we're just all killing each other in wars and whatever. And for me, when I was introduced to this tradition that is rooted in. In just as much history as any other Protestant tradition, like, it's just as old, and they've always really stuck to this of, like, the. The way of Christ is only the way of Christ if it looks like Christ. And in Jesus, you know, the ends don't justify the means and stuff. And so for me, it was this very new way of looking at Christianity. Like, okay, for me, what I was unraveling from was this ends justifies the means mentality. [00:17:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:17:13] Speaker A: And now I think what the Anabaptist tradition invited me into was, like, it not only needs to end looking like Jesus, it also needs to look like Jesus in the process. And that is so different than what I had. And so for me, that kind of tethered me back to Christianity. And then I'm just such a learner that I was like, I want to know more. And so then I was like, Anabaptist, you know, programs. There are not that many in the States. And so I was just like, you. And I found it, and I enrolled. Yeah. So it was, like, not very well thought through, other than, like, this is what's tethering me to Christianity. So I want to know more about. [00:17:46] Speaker B: It's perfect. Perfect for people. Savannah, I didn't prep you for this, but I do. I believe in you. You have this answer. [00:17:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:17:53] Speaker B: For people that are listening, and they're like, same, that's me. But I haven't come back yet. Like, they're like, I. I've left. I've left the church. Yeah, this is. Some people's church is listening to this podcast. They don't step feet in church institutions or buildings right now. They haven't found a community that they trust after being hurt, you know, from another previous community. But there is still something tethering that they're still listening besides going and, you know, getting a master's in something. [00:18:21] Speaker A: What probably isn't right for anyone, like, it was right for me, but I'm not telling anyone else to do it's. [00:18:27] Speaker B: So good for you. It's perfect. But what. What could they do? What could. Like, how. How do they explored, like, and start pulling back on that tether when they're really not sure. [00:18:38] Speaker A: So first of all, there's no pressure to. So that's one thing. Like, you're okay. So you're fine and you don't have to fix anything. So that would be my thing, first of all. So this is not, like, me telling you, like, a. How to become Christian again. Like, I have no interest in doing that. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:57] Speaker A: I will say, in my experience, in. What has shifted so much for me as I've gotten into my 30s is that I am no longer tethered to my beliefs about God. I am tethered to Jesus. And it is this shift where it's like, yeah, okay, like, legitimately, right now, anyone could be like, wow, there's this huge error in the Bible that no one knew about. Whatever. I literally be like, okay, great. Like, it. It doesn't matter anymore. Like, because for me, my tether is not to, like, me understanding the Bible perfectly or me understanding everything about the Christian tradition perfectly, or me, like, believing the church is perfect or whatever. Like, now I'm like, no, I'm bought in on Jesus. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:40] Speaker A: And that gives me so much freedom to disagree in basically every other arena. So that would be one thing. And then the second thing is, is that if you are a learner, start pulling back from this evangelical Protestant tradition that we have been told that this is all that there is. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:56] Speaker A: No, American Christianity is brand new on the world stage. And so start looking at different traditions that have existed for now, you know, 2,000 years now. Yeah. And how people have been wrestling with faith. And you are going to find people who have asked these same questions and stuck around. [00:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:16] Speaker A: So there. There's always reasons to leave. And I'm never going to tell you not to leave. Like, you have to have the freedom to leave in order to have the freedom to say yes. Yeah. And if you want to stay here and you want a home, you can find one in some tradition. I promise you. There are, like a million traditions, and everyone has been asking these questions for forever. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [00:20:33] Speaker B: It's perfect. I'm gonna clip that whole part and just, like, make it my ringtone or something. I don't know much. [00:20:40] Speaker A: Every morning I feel like every time somebody calls me, you don't have to stay. [00:20:46] Speaker B: You can leave. You don't have to say, you're okay, you're okay. I love it so Good. [00:20:52] Speaker A: That's funny. That's funny. [00:20:53] Speaker B: Well, what has the evolution of your faith been like? You talked a little bit about, you know, you said you, like, you had a faith crisis and whatever, but what's, like, through your life? What's it looked like? [00:21:04] Speaker A: I have definitely always wanted to know God. Always. Like, since I was little, I've always wanted to know and wanted to really know what God is like. And there's always been this very tender part of me that has been shaped around that. And then I think when. I mean, my undergrad was in religion and art, that was what my degree was in. So I was always curious about theology, and I think I just started to intellectualize it, you know? And there's something so beautiful about that, about loving God with your mind and about really knowing what you think and why and becoming a critical thinker. But sometimes, at least for me, that turned into some disembodiment where I knew a lot, but, like, I didn't, like, talk to God anymore. And I, like, I think about it my whole life I had been talking to God, and it just wasn't complicated for me. And then I got so, like, smart about stuff, and then I just lost all of the value of it. And so I think for me, my faith crisis was me being like, I know more than I ever have, and I have, like, no faith, and I don't, like, love God. And I'm, like, lacking this, like, real, like, spiritual formation. So I think for me, like, what I've been leaning into more in my 30s now that I've decided, like, I'm in, I bought in on Jesus. Yeah. Now it's more about, like, yes, like, I'm always going to be a learner, but how do I integrate that into my spiritual formation, into my heart, in my soul? Do you relate to that at all? [00:22:23] Speaker B: Yes, I am for sure a learner. And I did the same thing. Like, I feel like I had my deconstruction, not sure what I believed anymore. At the same time that God was telling me to be a pastor and I was getting ordained, I was like, what am I doing? And it was wild. [00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:41] Speaker B: And I do think it started with, like, it's a tension. Right. Because even as you're saying, like, I knew too much and I learned too much, but I'm like, but you are such a learner. Like, that's just what I. One of the things I love about you is the way that you were, like, for ever talking about context in scripture and what you learned and all the things and yeah, yeah. Sometimes there's a huge distance from what we know in our brains to what we believe in our hearts or what we feel in our hearts and bridging that gap. [00:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And if, like you, if, if, if whatever I'm learning isn't impacting my heart formation in a positive way and isn't impacting the way that I practice my faith in a positive way, like, there's a bad disconnect there. And for me, like, and I think that's where I kind of lean to. Like, I had all of these great answers and I could tell everyone why all of these things and now I'm just like, oh my God, you were a dumb 24 year old. Like, I was like a little, a baby who had all the answers. And I didn't have love in my heart though. And I think that that's where now I'm like shifting into like, as I've got late 20s, into my early 30s now, I'm like, I want like love to fill my heart. And yes, I want to be like smart and I want to know what I'm talking about, but I want love primarily to fill my heart. So, yeah, it's a big shift. [00:23:54] Speaker B: I think I relate to that so much too. And I think that a lot of the American church, American Christians right now, whether they see it or not, I see that happening like widespread, where people just want to go, no, here's the answer. Here's what the Bible says, here's. But I'm like, but do you live that out? Like, I know you say these things and you, you talk about how these words and the things that you believe and value and hold true are like so important. But you wanna, and you want everybody else to live them out. But like, if you don't live them out, I don't actually care what you believe. [00:24:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And no one. And they ultimately don't either. Like, that's where it gets like where we deceive ourselves. I think sometimes too. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:38] Speaker A: Of swearing up and down that we believe one way. But it's like the proof. I always say this like the proof is in the pudding. So the proof of my faith is in the pudding of my life. And it's like my life is the pudding. The pudding. And that's like, if that's not good, then it doesn't really matter if I can name my Anabaptist history. Like, you know, if I'm not kind. Right. Yeah. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I hear you. [00:24:58] Speaker B: Oh, well, my favorite thing about you is the way that you like, will look at completely random things in the world, like a fake Gucci bag or, like, Subway ads in London. It's my favorite thing. I love this about you so much. And then you're like. You get on your phone, you're on an Instagram story, and you're like, you guys, this is context. And I. It's my favorite thing. So give people an example of what I'm talking about, of how you would, like, see something random in the world and be like, this is why context in scripture is important. [00:25:29] Speaker A: Okay. I was trying to think of probably, like, the most recent one. Have you. Do you watch the Great British Baking Show? [00:25:38] Speaker B: I have seen clips. [00:25:39] Speaker A: Okay, nice. I get to work on you then. Okay. [00:25:42] Speaker B: Okay. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Okay. So have you ever seen Paula Hollywood? Who's the guy with the gray hair? He's the judge. Have you seen him give a handshake? [00:25:50] Speaker B: Yes. It's like a special thing, right? Like, he only. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Okay, exactly. No, you're right. Yes, he. It is a special thing. So I was thinking of this when I watched the show, because they just had, like, a. The finale of the most recent season, Paul gave his first handshake during this season, and everyone was just freaking out on the show. And I'm like, if someone had never seen this before, they would be like, why are people freaking out that Paul Hollywood just gave one of the bakers a handshake? [00:26:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:15] Speaker A: I've been watching since season one, and I remember how the handshake evolved. So it's like during season three or four, he gives his first handshake after someone just baked something really good. And from there, it was born to be, like, an iconic moment in every season where Paul Hollywood will give a handshake. And he's known to be, like, a very strict judge. Like, he's very high standards. And so when he gives a handshake, it's sort of like winning the episode. Episode. Like, it's like, it doesn't really matter if you win it or not. It's like you got a Paul Hollywood handshake. You know, you. And that means something so much more than anyone would ever know if they had just seen, like, dropped in and watched one episode. Got it. And so when I was watching it, I was like, this feels like context to me, where it's like, for anyone who is used to this show, you would know the significance of that immediately. But it's like, let's say that in 2,000 years, you see one episode of the Great British Bake Off, You've never heard of it in your Entire life and you see this gray haired man give a random bakery handshake and everyone freaks out. [00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:13] Speaker A: You would be wondering like, what on earth is like, why do they care so much about this handshake? Or worse, you would be like, huh, like maybe everyone's handshakes were a really big deal and you would just start reading into it and applying your own meaning to it without like trying to gather context from it. And so that makes me think a lot about like the Bible where a lot of the times like we'll read something and it's like something a little bit off kilter and at our best what we say is, huh, like I wonder what that's about. And then we go into the study Bible mode where we like get into the like a footnotes of a really good study Bible or we start like going to different commentaries or like good sources on Google. Not all sources on Google, but good sources on Google. And we start to say like, oh, maybe this off culture thing makes sense in this broader context. And what are like the different things that maybe the author was trying to say or what was happening in culture at that time? At our worst, we will look at an off kilter thing and be like, oh, I know what that means, because I've know what that means in my context. And it must mean the same thing in this ancient context we assign meaning. Yeah, exactly. And so for me, like that contextual piece, like we take for granted, we take for granted in our context how much makes sense to us because we grew up here, like because we grew up in America, because we grew up watching the Great British Baking show or because we know these different like cultural like idioms and whatnot. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:41] Speaker A: And we don't think people 2000 years ago writing the Bible were the same way about a completely foreign context to us. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:49] Speaker A: They were pulling from their context all the time in ways that they all knew and it made sense to them. Right. But for us, we're so removed, we need to remind ourselves that we are guests. We are guests in this story. So we are going into a house that we do not understand and we need to learn the rooms and we need to learn the layout so that we understand like what the heck is going on. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that we look at ourselves as like so advanced. And I, I, I will say myself too, I think about people in the Bible as like, very boring. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:20] Speaker B: They just woke up, they like got grain or whatever. They, I don't know, tended the sheep, they like went to church and then, which wasn't really church, and then they went home and they had to, like, make a pot so then they could make food in it and then they could eat. Like, I just. No, they probably had inside jokes. They probably had their own slang. They had their own things. And we just forget. Like, just because we. It looks different doesn't mean that they didn't have exactly what we have now. Just in a different way. [00:29:48] Speaker A: They do. It's just in such a different way. And I think we do need to remember, like, I think that that's where, like, contextual study is just so helpful in, like, historical study, because it's, like, a humiliating exercise. And I mean humiliating in the humble sense, like, to humble yourselves and say, like, we are not the center of any of this narrative. Like, no one born in this time and in this part of the world was the center of the biblical story. So when we engage with it, we need to humble ourselves and say, I don't know this context. And we're two languages removed. Like, we don't know the original language. So we're relying on so many experts and scholars to be able to even read the text in our language. [00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:32] Speaker A: Which a lot gets lost in translation, too. So there's, like, a lot of variables there that I think sometimes we just forget exist. Right, right. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Like, the Bible was. Is for us, but it was not written to us. [00:30:44] Speaker A: It wasn't. [00:30:45] Speaker B: Big difference. Big, big difference. When did context become important to you? Like, has scripture always been this important where you're like, I need to know and we need to understand? Or did you just, like, something happen and you became aware of it? [00:30:58] Speaker A: I think growing up, I used to think that the Bible was like, this, like, perfect document downloaded from heaven with no cultural influences, and the people who wrote it were just, like, robots overtaken by God. [00:31:13] Speaker B: I was like. I was like, oh, they're like angels, but yes, same, same. Yeah. [00:31:17] Speaker A: God, like, over their brain. Yes, exactly. [00:31:20] Speaker B: I mean, a feather. A feather. They didn't have pens. [00:31:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Little feathers. But it's like that. That God was the only influence in the Bible or something. And I think. Yeah. In undergrad, once I started, like, which, to be fair, this was intense for freshman year. My freshman year undergrad professor had us read a Bart Ehrman book, which is like, Bart is brilliant. And, like, also will poke a lot of holes in that ideology. [00:31:46] Speaker B: You're like, I was not ready for. [00:31:48] Speaker A: No. And I remember thinking, like, wait a second. Humans influence the Bible. Like, what are you talking about? But then now, like, it just feels so much less scary. But I know it can even feel scary to listeners here, so I don't want to make light of it. [00:32:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:00] Speaker A: But it's like, in the same way that if Jesus was born today in Arkansas. Sure. That if we wrote social media posts and newsletters and whatever, and that collected collectively became the Bible, it would be influenced by American culture. Absolutely. And it would be influenced by, like, modern technology. And it would be influenced by, like, women probably would have been involved in writing the Bible. Like, just like, a lot of, like, cultural norms that we have now, like, that is true of the Bible, which was written, I mean, 4,005, however many thousands of years ago up until, like, the New Testament, which was 2,000 years ago. So we have so many thousands of years of culturally affected documents that we have collected and that we need to treat it like it was culturally affected. But I think I thought that, like, I was being a heretic if I admitted that it was influenced by culture. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. [00:32:53] Speaker B: Because I think a lot of people would say that you're a heretic if you say that the Bible is influenced by culture. [00:32:59] Speaker A: And I think I would just look around, like, to me, what it. What it shows me, though, too. Like, when I remember when we read that Bart Armand book, like, and I was just, like, arguing, like, because I was, like, terrified, obviously, because it was like the first time I was hearing that humans affected the Bible at all. [00:33:15] Speaker B: Right. You're like, you get defensive because you're grasping on. You're like, no, no, no, no. Don't shake my core beliefs. Yes, it makes sense that people get defensive because they're afraid, because this is. [00:33:24] Speaker A: What your faith is in. And it's so real and totally makes sense. And I think it also showed my own ignorance and it showed my lack of experience with the Bible. Because when you spend time with the Bible, you realize that it's messed up, messy, and that's just reality. Like, I am so skeptical of people who the Bible is airtight to where I want to be. Like, no, like, you need to spend more time with it if you seriously think that it all, like, makes sense together. Like, it argues with itself and that's okay. And the more time you spend with it, the more you realize how beautiful and magical and just, like, dense and rich it is and how complicated it is. Yeah. Like, even now with this book that I'm, like, working on, I'm even noticing in some of my studies, like, picking up on things where I'm like, oh, that is a variation of the Gospels and now my faith is not in my ability to understand the Bible. So that's okay. Like, it just becomes a new thing to explore. [00:34:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:15] Speaker A: But I think even 10 years ago, I would have been like, I have to make sense of this. Like, I have to make this perfect because otherwise my whole faith will unravel. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:24] Speaker A: So I think for me, context and contextual study has given me permission to playfully explore the Bible where it's like, I get to have fun and we get to all, like, explore all day long and we're never, ever going to reach the end because it's really big and dense and complicated. Right? Yeah, well, and it does. [00:34:39] Speaker B: It allows us to let go of things. Like, I remember growing up, a friend of mine that I would try to get to come to, he wasn't a believer, still is not a believer. But I remember, like, specifically having arguments about the Gospels and like, well, why does this one say it this way and this one says it this way and they're not the same. So if they're not telling the same story, then it must be that this is not. It's because it's not real and it didn't really happen. And in my brain, I tried to figure out a way to make them the same. Well, this must mean this. So that it does mean the same. Where then later I learned, okay, like, if. If somebody were to walk in the room right now and tell a story about what's happening in this conversation with me and you, and then walk out. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:22] Speaker B: And write down what happened, they're going to write down a different version than I write than you write. And just because they forgot that my shirt was brown and they thought it was orange doesn't mean that this didn't happen. [00:35:35] Speaker A: It doesn't make the gist of it not true. Right. [00:35:37] Speaker B: It just means, like, yeah, different perspectives. People remember different details. [00:35:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And yeah, Greg boy talks about this a lot. He. He says that he uses the phrase generally reliable for the Gospels. And he was like, I have found, like, for him in his path of, like, being able to follow Jesus. He was like, the Gospels for me, after doing study are generally reliable. Okay. And that's enough. And that doesn't take away. Once again, like, I am not at all trying to take away from, like, the inspiration of the Bible, because I do believe that the Bible is inspired and love 100, like, very invested. Yes. And if you're going to, like, a historical critical method, like the general reliability and it's like, yeah, these are generally reliable. They're messy and Generally reliable. And I will add this just to make. I'll. I'll throw this little bomb in and you can see how you feel. You can edit it out later. But furthermore. Yes. If there are three people that come in. All right. About this conversation and leave, they're all going to read different perspectives. I think about this a lot with our current context in America. Okay. With how different Christians are perceiving, even, like, our political landscape. And I think if. If people were able to document, like, how different streams of Christianity are interpreting what's currently happening in the world and in our political landscape and how that may or may not relate to Christianity. If people read that 2,000 years from now, I'm so curious how they would take it and what would happen if only a certain stream. Like, let's say that if only one stream of Christianity's text made it okay. And then the other three, like, in people. You know, maybe people from your church, Mosaic, if you guys wrote like, hey, this is how we perceive Christianity in America in 2025, versus if Jerry Falwell's church said, this is how we perceive, or Jerry Powell's dad, the Sun. Yes. Said, this is how we perceive Christianity in America in 2025. But let's say that his was the only one that made it 2,000 years from now. And I think. I think about that a lot, too, where it's, like, not only the perspectives we have, but also the perspectives that are missing. [00:37:46] Speaker B: I have. I don't know that I've ever considered that. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah. But that just makes things messy. [00:37:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:53] Speaker A: In a good way. [00:37:54] Speaker B: You're totally right. And again, it doesn't mean that there was some other way that was supposed to happen. Like. But, yeah, it just. To me, Savannah, it points to, like, just the. The bigness of God. And God is so complex and so mysterious and so complicated, and it's okay. And so, of course, the Bible and even us as people are complex and complicated, and you can't put labels on us and you can't fully explain the Bible away, because if it's God's word and we are reflections of him, like, we're. Everything is multifaceted and messy, and it's complicated. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And I think that makes. That makes it so beautiful, too. Yes. Like, I think there's, like, a really beautiful part of that. Yeah. Anyways, I'll throw that once again. You don't have to keep that. But I always love that in this context where I'm like, yeah. Even now, seeing how people are interpreting various Events. Like, I'm like, if only part of these narratives made it through, how would people be interpreting this time and place right now? [00:38:57] Speaker B: It is kind of happening, though. Like, if we think about. There are certain Christians, a lot of Christians, who only hear one perspective, whether that's social media, the news channels that they watch. So, like, while I understand that you're talking about it in a much broader sense, I also think, like, application wise, we are seeing it happen right now, and we can see the way people live differently because of an interpretation. One narrow interpretation or another narrow interpretation. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Of the same events connected to their faith. [00:39:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Through the perspective of their leader. And if people can't see that, I mean, come on, everyone. Everyone could see. [00:39:39] Speaker A: That's just good to be. Like. It's good to note that, once again, about that humility piece. It's like, it's good to be humble about that and say, like, I'm being shaped by certain narratives around Christianity, and that's okay. Like, we're all being. [00:39:51] Speaker B: We all are. [00:39:52] Speaker A: And the point is not to. To be void of being shaped of anything. Like, we need to be shaped and formed. Yes. Point is to be able to be humble enough to say, like, I know I'm being shaped and formed. Like, and how are you seeing things differently? And I think being able to start from that humble place can be really helpful. [00:40:08] Speaker B: And where might I be wrong? Where am I, even if I'm not gonna flip sides and, like, go, okay, well, this is the version that I now agree with. Yeah. Where are they coming from? Like, what truth is it based on? How could I be wrong in. Just thinking about it helps us just to have empathy and understand people, if nothing else, and to figure out more. Why do I believe what I do believe? [00:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. [00:40:31] Speaker B: When we wrestle through it practically Savannah, how would people listening. How do they know if they're reading in context or not? Like, what context clues should they look for? [00:40:45] Speaker A: So, okay, I. I don't. I'm not gonna be able to answer this. Well, so. Because when. When you sent me this question because you're so prepared, I found my brain wanting to go down two paths. And the first one is this is that context and contextual study is not a way to weasel out of difficult realities in the Bible. So I think a lot of people will be like, in context. The Bible is like, in this. Once again, this. I don't want to throw so many hot takes. I don't know what my problem is this morning, but, like, oh, it's my context. The Bible is a very pro women document from start to finish. And it's like the reality is the Bible is not. It's like there are hard texts for women in the Bible. Now that doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't have this arch that's like heading towards like, like liberation. And it certainly does not mean that Jesus ever treated women poorly because Jesus specifically treated women so well and in very upside down ways. And Paul had a lot of crazy stuff to say about women. Like that women will be saved through childbearing. Like, that is, that is wild. And I think context does not make that less wild. And so I think I, by doing contextual study, you're not trying to make the Bible sanity. Like it's okay to sit in the tension of the Bible, in my opinion. So that's one thing that I want to say. Second of all, with contextual study, I don't know, at least I'm not aware of one that like, scholars have agreed on or even that was recommended to me in school of like one certain way to read the Bible or like one certain way to like, know for sure the right context or something. I think it's probably a conglomerate of things, but I do think that there are ways that you can do it wrong that are really easy. So I thought I would show, I would do the negative instead of perfect. Let's go. My first one was centering yourself and the narrative. So like we've talked about here, like, the Bible is for you. It is a gift and it is magical and wonderful and has so much wisdom that we can glean every day from it. Yeah. And like, you are not the center of the text. What none of the authors knew about America, none of the authors could have ever imagined 20, 25 in their minds, or 26, whenever this comes out, like, literally, we were not in the psyches of any of these writers. [00:43:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:01] Speaker A: And so centering yourself is a really fast way to potentially do some harm. As Pete N. Says, exegetical malpractice. He loves that phrase. And so that to me is like one way of doing that. Now there are like exceptions to this, so I'm like gonna add some nuance. Like there are some practices in like, Anglican traditions and whatever where you will sit with the text and then you'll imagine yourself in the story. So I know that there are beautiful traditions where you can like find yourself in the text that are beautiful. But in general, if you're reading for context, you are not in the context. So that's. That is one Way just to you to safeguard yourself. Yeah. And then the second thing is, like, centering America or wherever you are, if you're in Canada or anywhere listening to this, Peru, you are not in the Bible. [00:43:54] Speaker B: So you. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Yes. So remembering that, like, and what I'm thinking about with this is specifically with, like, end time stuff. So we see this a lot with, like, the Book of Revelation where people are like, oh, this is talking about America. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:09] Speaker A: Like, this is talking about, you know, whoever. I don't know who the latest Antichrist is, but, yeah, whoever people are saying it is, which, by the way, Antichrist isn't even in Revelation, which is. That's in first and Second John, but it's fine. So I think, like, sometimes that can lead to, like, a lot of harmful and toxic beliefs and ways of interpreting the Bible. If you're like, oh, this is just now coming true. Okay. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:34] Speaker A: Because we're here. Do you know what I mean? Right. So I would say, like, those are the two ways to, like, safeguard yourself. Just to remember, like, you're not the center of this story. So you're coming in as a guest and come in gently and kindly and humbly and be willing to, like, listen and learn. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:49] Speaker A: And just. You don't have to be the center of it. Like, you can glean wisdom from it, but you don't have to be the main character of the Bible, you know? [00:44:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Listen, reading in context is super important. Like, it's so important. And also, you can read a story. I mean, we. I do this when I watch the Chosen. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I wish I was at that Shabbat dinner right there, like, sitting next to Mary Magdalene. Yeah, like, that would be so great. We can do both things. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Yes. And that's called. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Understand. [00:45:21] Speaker A: Do you talk about Midrash on your show? Yeah. [00:45:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:24] Speaker A: Okay, go ahead and explain Midrash, because that's what you're doing there. [00:45:27] Speaker B: Oh, is that what. That's what. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:28] Speaker B: I mean, Midrash is the idea of holy imagination, sacred imagination. Going. Putting yourself in the text and going, I wonder what it would have been like. I wonder what other conversations would have been happening. I wonder what people would have been thinking like. And I do think the difference there is we're not trying to make meaning when we do that. We're trying to go, okay, let's fill in some gaps. To me, that makes it so much more personal. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:45:55] Speaker B: And relatable. [00:45:56] Speaker A: Yes. You know, Beautiful. I love that explanation. That's beautiful. Yes. And I love that you watch the Chosen. So cute. Literally. Oh, my God. We were just at Urban Market, like, at this coffee shop in Franklin with our friends, and they're friends with the guy who plays Jesus. [00:46:11] Speaker B: Stop. [00:46:12] Speaker A: So then Jesus walks up and literally. My husband. [00:46:16] Speaker B: While you were sitting there? [00:46:17] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, because they were friends with our friends, and so they were, like, talking or whatever. And I didn't recognize him because he had, like, a hat on and his teeth were really white. I just, like, didn't know was going on. But then when we left. When we left, I was like. I was like, it seems like you really got on well with that guy. And he said, with Jesus. And I was like, what? [00:46:39] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:46:41] Speaker A: But yes, to your point, like, it is so important to know that you can play with the text and that there is a long Jewish tradition of Midrash, which is, to your point, like, using your, like. Like holy imagination. And also, the phrase for this is called the two horizons, where a lot of, like, historians and Bible people talk about how there are two horizons. So there's the horizon of the Bible's context, and then there's the horizon of our context. And we're trying to make those two horizons meet a lot of the times, because otherwise, like, if we're just reading the Bible in its context and just trying to figure it out, that is so valuable and worthwhile. And that's what we're talking about a lot on this show. Yes. But ultimately, it also needs to take a leap to our context. And that's where the playfulness can come from. But where the harm can come from is when we assume that our context is the context of the Bible. And I think that's what I'm trying to differentiate here is that there are two horizons. And so Midrash kind of, like, blends and plays with those horizons and says, like, okay, like, now that we've learned this about Revelation, like, it's not about America, great. But there is, like, a lot of stuff about empire worship and empire worship. Like, what might that look like in our context? And how can we, like, like, pledge allegiance to the Lamb? And how can we make sure that we align with our Christian community and stay faithful to community of believers over whatever beasts of today there are. And so I think that there are ways to be able to do that. But. And I'm so happy you said that, because I do want to clarify. Like, I'm not saying that the Bible can't be personal or that it doesn't matter to us. It so does. But in this context of what we're talking about, like, which is reading the Bible historically and critically, that's what I'm trying to hone in on. It's like, why context matters. Yeah. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you keep it fun and engaging and not just, like, scholarly when you're trying to study context? [00:48:37] Speaker A: I think, honestly, everyone needs a good study Bible. So my study Bible, I would die for. Like, I recommend it to every person. And every time I'm reading the footnotes, I am just constantly coming to life. [00:48:50] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Like, and so I would recommend for anyone. So the one that I use is the New Revised Standard Version, Historical Cultural Background Study Bible. [00:48:57] Speaker B: I think it's the same one that I. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Okay. That's when you. [00:49:00] Speaker B: I'm obsessed. I tell everybody. I'm like, this is the Bible that you need. [00:49:04] Speaker A: Like, it's sickeningly good. Every single footnote is magic. The Baylor Study Bible is actually really good, too. I have, like, a bunch that I can send to you if you want to, like, put them in the footnote. Perfect. But, like. Like, for me, it's, like, just getting curious. And so if you come to the Bible with fear, that's going to. That is going to mark the way that you read the Bible. So if you're coming to the Bible and you're like, I need this all to make sense. Like, I need this to affirm the way that I grew up. I need this to affirm my tradition. I need this to make me feel confident and certain and secure. Then that's going to come out in the way you read the text. But if you come in like a child, per Jesus's recommendation of, like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Like, I don't know what this means. But, like, I get to dig. Like, that is kind of like the invitation that I always go into the text with. And I'm like, and if. And if things get stale and they do, like, literally, who does the Bible not get stale for? I don't know. I mix up translations. Yeah. So just, like, mix things up. Have a good time. But footnotes are life. I'm so happy you love that translation. [00:50:09] Speaker B: I love it. So it's like, whenever I'm prepping a sermon, that's the first place I go. So I'm like, jupe. I mean, I have my. Like, I go there. I go to the Bible project when I really can't understand it. I'm like, they're gonna show it to me in a cartoon. And that's really gonna help. [00:50:22] Speaker A: Literally the Bible. Like, why are their cartoons so magical? I'm like, yes. Like, I'm so bought in. Like, I'm not even just listening. I'm like, I have to see, like, Moses with the fire and the burning bush and the cave, and I wanna. [00:50:36] Speaker B: See you actually drawing it. And real, like, why it's so engaging. My kids watch, like, ASMR and people opening stuff. I'm like, I just want to watch them draw Jesus. [00:50:46] Speaker A: You're like, Tim Mackey, tell me what the word hope means. [00:50:52] Speaker B: It's so good. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Yeah, good teachers matter to you. And, like, I know, like, whoever's at your church is lucky to have you. And then people who you're, like, learning from, they'll learn their names too. And so I think just, like, finding teachers that makes sense. Sense to you. Like, that you learn well from really matter to you. Like, I'm always, always reading just to learn more. [00:51:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Same. Well, and I also, like, my brain doesn't keep everything, so I'm like, just because I learned something once doesn't mean that I now know it. I have to keep going back to the same footnotes. [00:51:22] Speaker A: I'll. [00:51:22] Speaker B: I'll literally, like, go to study and be like, oh, I've underlined this. And then sometimes I pull up a sermon, and I'm like, oh, I taught. Like, I taught, actually this thing, but I still didn't remember the details of it. Do you know what I mean? [00:51:33] Speaker A: Like, it's disturbing how quickly information leaves. Yeah. [00:51:37] Speaker B: Oh, in and out. [00:51:40] Speaker A: Which, again, you're so funny. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, thank you. [00:51:43] Speaker A: We're like, in and out, which doesn't mean that it. [00:51:47] Speaker B: That it doesn't matter or, like. But that's why we have to keep learning, because we're gonna forget or we're gonna distort it in our own brains. [00:51:54] Speaker A: I know. Yeah. Yeah, that's good wisdom. That's very good wisdom. [00:51:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, Savannah, I could talk to you all day, but let me ask you the last question that I ask everyone, which is because of the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:52:11] Speaker A: I don't know if this is Christian enough, but this is what my answer sincerely is, is to ask better questions and just become better listeners. Yeah. So I think even yesterday, like, I was at dinner and someone asked a really good question to the table, and all of us just like, huh? Like, it was like it, like, stilled the noise. And it occurred to me, like, to get that stillness in our culture now is really holy and I think a good question is a good way to get there. [00:52:46] Speaker B: Love that. Yes, Ask good questions. Do you know that that's my secret goal in every interview here on becoming Church. Just like Paul Hollywood's handshake, when my guests say, oh, that's a good question, I'm like, yes, because I feel like I just won the interview. Curiosity is such an important element of your faith. It might lead you into some confusing moments where you realize that things maybe don't line up the way that you thought they did. But if you keep leaning in, stay curious and ask even more good questions, it will only deepen your beliefs. I promise that if you want to stay tethered to Jesus, he will stay tethered to you no matter what questions you ask. Share this episode with someone else who also needs to hear that truth. And until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.