Jennifer McNutt: The Mary We Forgot

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Jennifer Powell McNutt. She's here to help us better understand my favorite person in scripture, Mary Magdalene. You may have listened to my conversation with Elizabeth Tabish from the Chosen, which is still one of my favorite interviews of all time, but Jennifer is going to help us better understand who Mary Magdalene is in scripture. She'll help us to know not only who she is, but who she isn't and how we can distinguish her from all of the other Marys in the Bible. Jennifer, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Yeah, we're excited to have you here. Listen, let's get our listeners kind of to know a little bit more about you. So why don't you give us a couple of just fun facts, and that can be, you know, the standard, like, where do you live? What do you do? But if you also want to throw out some random unique fact about you, a hidden skill talent. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Okay, that's fun. So. Well, I am a professor at Wheaton College. I've been here for almost 20 years. Hard to believe. I am a Californian that is living in the cold and snow of Illinois. So that is a change. It is a change. Yes, exactly. And then I guess probably the thing people would know is that I was trained as a classical ballet dancer, and so I have that background of. That's amazing dance. And I. Yes, I love. So I love the arts. I love dance, and just the culture and everything that goes around, the history. And my daughter's a ballerina. One of my daughters is a ballerina now, and it's really fun to share that with her. So. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, that is so special. Okay, so the only, like, this is going to show my lack of knowledge. I'm like, oh, so you went to Juilliard? No, I'm sure. [00:02:19] Speaker A: I did not go to Juilliard. Yes, it was. It was a. It was a City Ballet company in Texas. Just Lubbock, Texas. I talk about Lubbock on the first page of the book. And. Yeah, but we, you know, we were really trained so well, and our ballet master was a principal dancer with Diaghilev, who is such a famous ballet director from the Ballet Russes. You could look it up. And. Yeah, so we received such excellent training, and it really has shaped my life as well. So. [00:02:59] Speaker B: That is so neat. Do you still dance, like, at all? [00:03:02] Speaker A: I can Dance in the kitchen pretty good. That's right. [00:03:09] Speaker B: In the kitchen. [00:03:10] Speaker A: That's right. [00:03:10] Speaker B: It's like I sing in my car. [00:03:12] Speaker A: There you go. There you go. It's still in there. [00:03:15] Speaker B: You know, it just comes out a little bit differently these days. [00:03:19] Speaker A: That's right. [00:03:21] Speaker B: Well, thank you for sharing a little bit your background. Okay, so you have already mentioned cold Illinois, Texas and California. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:03:33] Speaker B: If you could just pick, do your job, take your family, all the things, where would you actually live? [00:03:39] Speaker A: Oh, well. [00:03:43] Speaker B: Like, we're not gonna hurt anybody. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Sleep. Let's go to Hawaii. Oh, actually, I'd probably live in Paris. Honestly, that would be my. [00:03:53] Speaker B: It's that ballet influence that. Oh, that's it. [00:03:56] Speaker A: That's what it is. Yeah. Anyway, I'm thankful to be where I am, so. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Well, you wrote a book called the Mary We Forgot. I have it right here. And before we dig into this totally and talk a lot more about Mary Magdalene and who she was, what was your background like? Did you grow up in the church? Did you find faith later? You know, how did you even come to the place of having like a personal interest in. In religion or faith or whatever you want to call it? [00:04:27] Speaker A: Right, yeah. So I grew up in a pastor's family, so my parents met in seminary. They both did their m. Div. And got married. And then I was born and they were in co ministry together, actually the first clergy couple in our denomination to co pastor a church. And so that was my experience. Experience. And seeing my mom preach one Sunday and my dad preach the next and certainly shaped me in profound ways. And so I. There's never time I didn't know the Lord and the love of the Lord and, and. And also love the Lord. That's been from the very beginning, I think, the most transformative moment for me in my walk with Christ has been as a child at church camp and receiving a. Called ministry and you know, pursuing that, really, that being so transformative and focusing my. My vision, my mission for my life, for the way that I would be equipped and then being really open to where the Lord would call me to. So also my husband and I are in ministry together and you know, there is preaching that goes on and all different things. [00:05:55] Speaker B: So. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah. So as a professor, but also as a pastor, you know, that, that really fills my life and that's what the Lord has called me to do. So I'm very thankful for that. Yeah. [00:06:09] Speaker B: And education and pastoring overlap quite a bit. [00:06:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, they do. [00:06:14] Speaker B: I was a kindergarten teacher for a long time before God called me into ministry. And there's a lot that Venn diagram intersects. [00:06:22] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. Because you do have this desire just to. To give of what you have been given, to form others, to illuminate, enrich, edify. All of that is like the passion, I think, of the teacher or should be, and that moves very well into the work of the church. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So growing up, hearing your mom preach. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:49] Speaker B: At some point you had to then step out of this, like, bubble where women were allowed to do that and accepted in that position. Do you remember kind of the first time you encountered the idea that, like, maybe women are not supposed to be pastoring, teaching? [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yes, I do remember. I mean, I think there was a conversation that has stuck with me when I was in high school and I was. We were. Were doing a car wash. Our youth group was doing a car wash at a church. And, you know, I was asked by one of the adults there wasn't. Sorry, it wasn't our church. It was a different church. And. And the adult, one of the men there asked me, you know, what. What do you want to do? And it was really funny because I think because I was a child, I grew up in a pastor's home, so I knew about seminary. So, like, I knew that I was going to seminary before I knew what college I was gonn. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to seminary, you know, and he was like, oh, you. You know, you could work in the church kitchen and still serve the Lord. And that was his go to. It was really interesting. [00:08:02] Speaker B: I wish people listening could see my face right now. You didn't even. [00:08:06] Speaker A: He didn't even say, like, yeah, children, the kitchen. He's like, you know, you could serve in the kitchen. And I was like, I don't. At the time. Of course, I didn't really know how to cook either. So it wasn't like I was saying it was very strange. And then I think it was really in college, frankly, where, you know, just because I was a religious studies major, we were having a lot of these conversations about what does scripture say about the roles of men and women and how the Holy Spirit equips men and women and calls us to serve and are those different callings or not? And, you know, that's where I really dug into the. The complexities of those conversations, being able to listen to others who have other perspectives on that than what I had grown up with, and to just be in conversation with those. With. With others on this. This important topic. But it can be a hard one. So yeah. Yeah. [00:09:10] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. I'm grateful that you followed God's call. I mean, that's obedience, right? And that's what I always talk to when I talk to other female pastors or women in ministry. I'm like, it doesn't matter truly what anybody else's opinion of your role is. The fact is, if you know that God has called you to this role, then not doing it because of the opinions of others would actually be disobedience on your part. [00:09:36] Speaker A: I know, I know. And, you know, I'm really struck. I love what you're saying right now and resonate so much with that. When I look at the history of Christianity and when I look at the Reformation, which is the area that I focus on in my expertise, you know, it always strikes me the. The women who are in minute ministry, in their spaces in that time, you know, really take to heart the parable of the talents. And they. They think about that parable, you know, saying to them, you can't bury this. You know, God has given this to you. Can't bury this. You know, he's coming back and there will be. I mean, there is kind of a reckoning, right, that comes in that moment and needing to. To give an account of what it is that you have done with what the Lord has given you. That's probably why I love Mary Magdalene, too, because she gives her all to Jesus, right, that she's such a fabulous model, not just for women, but also for men in that. What it means to truly be obedient. Faith. [00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Well, let's. [00:10:40] Speaker B: Let's get into it. I want to know if. Have you always had. I like to call her Mary Mags. [00:10:45] Speaker A: Mary Mags. I like that. [00:10:47] Speaker B: That's my favorite. She is my favorite in the whole. In the whole Bible. And I'm. Listen, I love Jesus, but, like, I just really have an affection for. [00:10:56] Speaker A: I know, I know. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Have you always. Have you always been drawn to her, or was there, like a particular thing that you learned, maybe that. That gave you that connection? [00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. I haven't always been drawn to her, which I know is so surprising, right, Because I have met people who are like, I've always loved her. She's always been so important. And so actually my focus and intention in exploring her remembrance in the life of the church and in. According to the biblical text comes out of, like, the questions that have come up. And probably the researcher in me is interested in why has this always, this been kind of muddled. Why has it been unclear? I think in my context growing up, it was easier to get at other women than to get at Mary Magdalene. I, I focus a lot more on Priscilla, Priscilla and Aquila, probably because of my parents too. My daughter is named Priscilla, you know, so. So it's more pastored, right? Exactly. Yes, exactly. So I think I was more drawn to, to that. And, and so the question for me became, why is it so hard to get at Mary Magdalene? What does it mean when we use her name and we reference her? What are we actually saying? Because there is just so much confusion, I think, you know, out there in our culture and in the world. And so that was, that's what excited me. Can we retrieve her with clarity and root her story in what the Bible reveals in that. That as faithful followers of Christ and those who seek to who to uphold Scripture and you know, that it is the, this primary authority in our lives, how can that direct us to remember her rightly so. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we're going to get into the confusion in just a second because Holy moly, there's a lot. Yes, but do you have a favorite. There's lots of portrayals. Right. There are lots of portrayals of Mary Magdalene. Do you have a favorite one that you kind of go to or think of like when you picture her? [00:13:18] Speaker A: Yeah. This is a hard question. I think in the book I talk more about the mistakes than I do about the right ways I did love. And I know we'll talk about the chosen probably in a second, but that's why. But so one, one image of her that I, that I really love. I came it when we were in the south of France and we went remembers her presence there and her ministry there. And we went to a church dedicated to her and there is this, this image of her, you know, sort of fleeing on a boat in the case in France, you know, she's fleeing to France is what they are remembering from Jerusalem to France and under threat of persecution and you know, then this image of her sort preaching and proclaiming and I love, I love that part of the tradition of, of believing that she would continue to share with others what Jesus had taught her. And so I love that, that part of the, part of remembrance of her. So. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that was a play. I didn't know that that church was like a thing. Yes. Now, now I have a reason to go. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Oh, well, you certainly do. Yes. Okay. [00:14:46] Speaker B: So what are your thoughts on the children? [00:14:49] Speaker A: I know I. Well, I love how. Okay, this is complicated. So, first of all, I mean, right, the acting is wonderful. Elizabeth Tabish is just amazing. And she was on your show. I can't believe I want to meet her. [00:15:06] Speaker B: She is so fantastic. I mean, just even as a person, like, so kind and gracious and. Yes. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Oh, wonderful. Yes. Yay. So I do love how the chosen kind of threw everyone off balance by framing the story, starting the story from a completely different standpoint through the eyes of Mary Magdalene, anticipating how important she will be then, you know, at the resurrection moment, and, you know, basically inviting audiences to see her significance and importance from throughout Jesus's ministry and at every stage. And that is exactly right. I. So I love that part of it. I love, you know, just that it is a paradigm shift for a lot of people to think about women as present and traveling with Jesus, you know, throughout the. Their. His ministry from Galilee to Jerusalem, and that, you know, that they would be with the 12 and that they were receiving that teaching from Christ and that they were contributing, you know, to that ministry. And so I love that part about the chosen. I think that where the complexity comes in is with some of the allusions to her, like, passing behavior and her past life and some of her, like, supposed sinfulness in certain ways. And that, I think, is. Been something that we've had for a long time in the history of interpretation that actually hasn't been helpful and isn't reflective of how Scripture introduces her. So. But it's a show, and they need drama, and she's got to be a real person. So, you know, so anyway, so those are my thoughts. [00:17:01] Speaker B: No, that's. That's great. Thank you. And you can be honest. You could have said, like, I hate it. And that's fine. That's. You're entitled to your opinion. Oh, sure. [00:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel very, like I'm very. I want people to watch it. I think it's. Yeah. Really a powerful show. So. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it actually leads really well into the confusion on Mary mags that you kind of talked about, because, like, if you Google right now, you know, who was Mary Magdalene, you're gonna get everything from, like, a prostitute to Jesus's secret wife to some random lady who was, like, exorcised a bunch of demons. Why are there so many. Before we get to who she is, why are there so many misconceptions? Like, I feel like she is more confused than anyone else in the Bible. How did that happen? [00:17:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's such a good question. It's a complex One and there are different traditions that have a different journey with her. So that's important to keep in mind. You know, different branches of the church have read her story in different ways and in similar ways, but. So those are. Or different, different accounts. But I would say, you know, it really does boil down to two main issues. One is that Mary's name is very popular, right? It's the most common name for a young woman in, you know, in the first century. And so that's part of it. It's just there are so many Marys and it is easy to get confused. Even though the Bible does provide ways for us to discuss, distinguish between the Mary's, that has not always happened and actually they've been frequently conflated or you know, certain ones have been even totally forgotten. [00:18:48] Speaker B: I'm going to break in really quick to tell you that I heard your requests for ways to take listening to the next level and podcast questions are now available. Every week I'll write a few reflection questions that will help you dig further into the context of scripture, how to ask God questions that you've never considered, or to just reflect more on how that week's episode hits you. Personally, I'm including these in my weekly newsletter. So all you have to do is sign up to get them. It's free and will be delivered straight to your inbox for when you're ready to dig deeper. The link to sign up is in the show notes. So Jennifer, in these stories, right, you talked about the harmonization of maybe, like maybe it's not actually all the same person. So is this all the same instance of like the sinful woman pouring oil? Sometimes it's on Jesus's head, sometimes it's his feet. [00:19:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:40] Speaker B: What's happening? [00:19:43] Speaker A: Well, I do have a chart in my book to help readers and you know, I think, you know, there are similarities and there are some significant differences as well. You know, does matter that the John account is identifying Mary, Bethany and as anointing Jesus. And you know, there are also even different purposes behind for some of the accounts. And so it's, it's, there's good reason why people have wondered about, you know, that event. And so I don't know that we can fully know. You know, it does seem like there are some significant distinctions between the gospel account and it does seem like it is a way that women can show their devotion for Jesus. And I think the reason the gospel is included is to show that Jesus receives and accepts the care of women even when they are humbling themselves. Even you Know, in a kind of a public setting to the point of others being uncomfortable with them. It is a way for us to see Jesus celebrate their act of devotion, of piety, and even call us, in the case of Luke 7, you know, call us to remember this woman that we don't even know her name. You know, we know that she had a past before, you know, Jesus came along and she loved Jesus greatly. Exactly who did it. Right. Come on. So. But that doesn't mean. Mean she's a prostitute. Right. So. Yeah, so. So those are the two reasons I think is, you know, the Mary's getting them mixed up with the Marys and then the anointings and trying to figure out how to, to think about that. And just the practice then of the medieval church of sort, sort of drawing these stories together as one story. And it's in the Renaissance is when and biblical scholars began to say that these are not necessarily the same people. And in fact, in Mary Magdalene's case, they begin to untie her story from Mary of Bethany's story and from the woman of Luke 7 who had been deemed a prostitute. And that begins then, you know, really in the 16th century. This question about how we have understood Mary Magdalene in the Bible and what we have received over the centuries by interpreters. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah, and all of this is, is very important. Let me preface that before I say this next question. I do think it's very important that we can untangle these women from each other and tell their stories. Would you, yes or no. Would you say though, that maybe we put too much importance on trying to figure out those details and instead of actually like paying attention to what we can learn from the stories. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Oh, I love that question. Absolutely. I think that what we want to be alert to when we approach the Gospels is that they have, you know, they are presenting Jesus's ministry in particular ways and they are revealing some aspects. And then there are some things that they're just not telling us that we don't know. Sometimes there are clues that we are missing and that when we read the text in its historical context, the new understanding or the humanity, you know, of these individuals comes alive in a helpful and enriching kind of way. But you're exactly right that we also need to be able to sit with the uncertainty when certain questions are not fully answered and think more about what is it that the Gospel is, are trying to teach us. You know, and in the case of Mary Magdalene, I think that when we look at John chapter 20, especially that at the very end of that Chapter where, you know, John says, like, what I've chosen here is so that you will know that Jesus is the Messiah. So that's, that's the purpose of what is being shared. And so Mary Magdalene has an important role in, in telling us that. [00:24:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we've, I love that you use the word uncertainty. I think that we've mistakenly put our faith in certainty in a lot of these cases to the point that if we cannot explain or we cannot know for certain the details of Mary Magdalene's life, and it's like, well, then, but, but no, we can say like, that's actually we're missing the point. Like, that's not what it's about. You know, what can you learn from it regardless? Like, does it actually matter if she was a prostitute, if she was not? Like, I think in, obviously as a person, it matters. But when it comes to application and when it comes to what it does for our faith and the way that we allow God to speak to us through Scripture, I think we let needing to know the certainty of these details get in the way of the Holy Spirit being like, that's not what I'm trying to tell you. [00:25:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I completely agree. But I also think that there is a certain way that scripture is inviting us to remember Mary Magdalene. And I do think it matters theologically that she is not a prostitute, but is a woman delivered from seven demons. I do think theologically, and also what it means when she points us to Jesus. I think it does matter, but it doesn't matter insofar as, you know, would we conclude that a prostitute in the biblical story cannot illumine for us, you know, aspects of who God is and at work in restoration. Like, we wouldn't ever go it that far. Yeah, so it's like, it's both. So I'm with you. [00:26:03] Speaker B: I agree, I agree. It is, it is both. And we, we can hold multitudes here, Jennifer. [00:26:08] Speaker A: Yes. Good. I love it. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Well, based on your research, who was Mary Magdalene? [00:26:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So based on just what the Bible says, that's a great place to start. There's a lot of add on for sure. But yeah, I just encourage listeners to go to Luke, chapter eight, those first verses in Luke, and to be introduced to the women who are following Jesus from Galilee to Jerusalem, traveling with him, giving up their resources, who have been healed from the presence of demons and, you know, in a definitive victorious way, and that are therefore learning from Christ and are just his disciples among the disciples with the 12, you know, as students of Jesus and you Know, receiving his preaching and teaching and participating in that, the work that he's doing and then really being shaped and sent to conduct his ministry. There's a few different ways that we can see that happening. Likely the, the sending of the 70, but certainly we are given insight into Matthew 28 and John 20, where Jesus is actually calling, sending Mary Magdalene to do his work, to carry his message. And so anyway, so all of that is so helpful to us. And there in looking at those verses, we can see that she is named first of all, that she's named at all, and that she is named in connection with a place which is very unusual, and that she is named first in the group of women as well. All of those are signals to us of her significance, of her importance. Yeah, reading that in its context can tell us more about Mary Magdalene that is just present in, in the text. [00:28:08] Speaker B: So yeah, I was like, well, unfortunately she was named the same thing as everyone else, which does make it a little bit confusing. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's why she's connected to the place. And then, you know, and of course there are ways for us to read that so that, you know, could also be a nickname, could mean tower of strength. That is something that in the history of the Church, they remembered her as a tower of faith. And so that, that could also be at work here as well. And you know, the other Marys are typically identified with their son or their, you know, husband or, you know, so she's not identified that way. So that's a signal to us of some that gives us clarity or more clarity about who she was. [00:28:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really great, I mean, context clue for people as they're reading scripture. Are there any particular other Mary's in scripture that like people mistakenly assume is Mary Magdalene or like vice versa? Like is there one of those, you're like, let me set the record straight about this Mary. It is or it is not her. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Oh, it's such a good question. Yeah, well, for hundreds of years she was identified with all the stories of Mary of Bethany. So yeah, that there wasn't a Mary of Bethany, that Mary Magdalene is the sister of Martha and of Lazarus. [00:29:36] Speaker B: So that she is not. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Well, I, I don't know. She, she is not indicated in that way from the biblical text. So I, I trace that in the book so I'll hopefully can help provide clarity on that. But yeah, that's exactly. She is not, you know, this the same person according to how we're invited to remember her. So that, but then there's other Things like. I was interested in my research to find out that she sometimes identified with the bride at the wedding at Cana, which, of course is. We don't know who that person is. They're unnamed. And so they. But a whole story then develops around that, that she was the bride at Cana, that John the Evangelist. She was going to marry John the Evangelist, that he left her at the altar, that she fell into this, like, life of debauchery as a result. And, I mean, it's all muddled and confused. But so that's also, you know, part. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Where did that story come from? [00:30:43] Speaker A: Well, I think I have an answer. Do we have another podcast? No. It is very true that people will take, like, that Jesus, you know, when he's on the cross and, you know, John the Evangelist is there, he's with Jesus's mother, Mary, and Mary Magdalene is also there. That they take that intimate trio and then they begin to add on, like, oh, they must have had a relationship or whatever. So. So then I'll say that another way that this has gotten really confused is with the. In the 20th century. So in the 20th century, with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi scrolls that are Gnostic scrolls, and also the Gospel of Mary, which was discovered before that. And then it's those translations into English which really fueled the flames of this historical fiction book. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Books, sure. [00:31:47] Speaker A: The Da Vinci Code or the fiction books. The Da Vinci Code. Sorry, I misspoke there. And. And that has also raised a lot of confusion and questions that we are. That we see on the Internet, like what you were mentioning. So. Yeah, okay. [00:32:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of. The Internet's Great. Until it's not, you know. [00:32:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:32:13] Speaker B: Well, in your opinion, Jennifer, you've done so much research on her, what would you say is the biggest takeaway or the thing that we can learn from her life? [00:32:23] Speaker A: I think there are so many things, so. And I love to unpack the parts of it. But one thing that really struck me in reading about her or thinking through how the gospels introduce her, is that, you know, she certainly does have a backstory, a story of life before Jesus. And if we take seriously the seven demons and her possession, then. Then, you know, it's. It's very striking to see how much her life changes by Christ's power and, you know, over basically the. The forces of evil that have gripped her. And so. So what I. The takeaway that I see in part is just that her whole life pivots around Jesus and that, you know, she is literally walking in his footsteps with him. And she is. So she's giving of her time, she's giving of her energy, and then she also is giving of her financial resources to support the ministry and the work that he's doing. And that is just a model of discipleship. Then I think when, because she's been doing all this and she's been present receiving his teachings, that when the time comes for her to bear witness, she is ready. She is ready to receive God's Christ's calling on her life to be sent, and she is faithful to go. And so I think that that is such a good model for all of. Of us as we think about, is Christ the center of our life? Is that where we are directing our energy? And will we be ready when God calls us to do his work? That's a question I've been asking myself as I've been doing this work, too. [00:34:21] Speaker B: That's good. Well, and I love that, you know, her confidence to go, her confidence to be sent is so evidently from her life of walking with him. Like you said, it wasn't just like, one day he was like, hey, Mary, I need you to go and help and, like, do my job for me now. You know, like, she had been learning. She was there. Disciple just means student. Like, she'd been learning all the things, and she knew what he was about and she understood and she got it. And so I imagine that when she was called, it wasn't like, oh, no, me. It was like, oh, yeah, of course. Like, of course I'll go. You know, I'm fully on board. Clearly, I've. I've been here with you. [00:35:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And she runs. Yeah. I mean, I love that detail that the Gospels include that she is running to do what Jesus calls her to do. And that is so beautiful. [00:35:13] Speaker B: If she was alive today, I'm gonna let you use your own, like, holy imagination. Okay, she was alive today. What do you think Mary Magdalene would be doing? [00:35:21] Speaker A: I think she would be preaching. And that is actually all the traditions of the church, and this is extra biblical, but nonetheless, imagine her as continuing in the proclamation that Jesus is alive. And even more than that, the message that Jesus gives to her, which is because he is alive, because he has conquered death, we have a new family. We are part of a new family, and God is our Father, and we are brothers and sisters with Christ. And so that, you know, that part of kind of her. Her ministry, I. I would believe that she would continue in that work. I mean, she can't imagine, like, basically being ordained by Jesus. Right. I mean, you just don't get over that. Yeah. [00:36:20] Speaker B: Do you think she was received differently in her time than she would be received today, like you said, if she was preaching today? [00:36:29] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, you're asking a historian to answer all these hypotheticals. I think that's hard. I, I respect that. The Gospels highlight the fact that when the women returned and shared what they had seen, that the disciples aren't immediately like, yes, we believe you. You know, it's so helpful and valuable that because they know each other so well. They know each other and it's not like they're strangers or anything. And it's still very difficult to believe and to know. And they. Jesus had even predicted it. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:09] Speaker A: So that's where we can see, I think, the authenticity of, of the Gospels. They're not glossed over and made. The disciples aren't made perfect in this, but ultimately they do the right thing and they do believe the women. And Jesus validates that testimony, that witness by appearing then to the gathered, you know, in, in that, the upper room, in that hidden room, and, you know, so verify. Basically, Jesus verifies what they had said. But we see in the Roman, Roman history, you know, I point to the Greek philosopher in the second century who talks about Mary Magdalene in a very disparaging way, calling her the frantic woman and is critical of Christianity for being based on the testimony of a woman. And I think, I think we really do continue. The church continues to struggle with the testimony of women and being able to hear women and to receive women. So I imagine that she would, she would still have that difficulty even, even. [00:38:22] Speaker B: For all we know, maybe heightened now. [00:38:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right. It's a little, There's a distance now that wasn't there at the time. So. [00:38:31] Speaker B: Well, and I like to, I always think too, like, you know, she came back and she came running back and she was like, Jesus is like, he's not there. He's alive. And I do love the humanity of the disciples, but I also have to tell myself, yes, it was a patriarchal system to an extent, but even if it was a guy that came back, they still would have been like, yeah, wait, what? [00:38:54] Speaker A: It didn't make sense. [00:38:56] Speaker B: I think we put so much emphasis on they didn't believe her because she was female versus they didn't believe her because what she was saying was literally a miracle and did not make sense. They could not comprehend it. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Yeah, there's. Yeah, exactly. There's that as well. I, I agree with that. But it is interesting then, that God calls the. The one, you know, those that would be the. The least believed to proclaim. Yeah, yeah, so, but I hear what you're saying too, and. Yeah, and there was opportunity. So one thing that I like to. That I observed too, is that, you know, Peter and John, they run right to the tomb. So they're not so disbelieving. They're like, wait a second, what's going on here? And they run to the tomb. And that would have been an opportunity for Jesus to reveal himself, and yet he doesn't. And so that also signals to us that it was really important that they were the ones who. And she was the one who received that good news. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:04] Speaker B: That's why I love her so much. She's special. Well, last question for you, Jennifer, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can maybe the. The life or the legacy of Mary Magdalene? What does it show us about how people listening can become the church to the people around them? [00:40:20] Speaker A: That's wonderful. I love that question so much and the work you're doing. [00:40:24] Speaker B: So thank you. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I know. I was thinking about that again. I think there are lots of answers that could be. But, but you know what the, the main sort of takeaway of what it is that she does is she points us to the risen Christ. And I think that's what we are called to do as followers of Christ for others is to say, you know, this is of the first importance of the faith, that that's what Paul says in First Corinthians. And, you know, because Jesus has resurrected, everything is different. Right. Because Jesus. If this had not happened, then we would not be following Christ. You know, but because of this, this transforms our lives and our world and our futures and our, you know, future relationship with God. So I think that's. It is like the church keep. Keep pointing to the resurrected Christ and all that that means for following Jesus faithfully. [00:41:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, Jennifer, thank you. Thank you so much for your work for the book. I'm going to link it up. Thank you. I recommend everybody read it. It was so good. Just bringing some humanity to the scripture and reminding us that these were real people who lived real lives and, you know, we can learn from them. But, but, but, like, we're all connected to them. [00:41:50] Speaker A: Yes, we're connected to them. Exactly. Thank you so much, Kristen. Great to meet you and to be on podcast. [00:42:01] Speaker B: You have been called by God that desire, that dream, that passion that's within you. Chances are that God wired you up specifically to care about it so that you can point to Jesus in that sphere. Whether it's within a church institution, at a comedy club, or in your own home, your representation of Jesus matters. Your call is not reliant on anyone else's opinion or approval, but it is between you and the Holy Spirit. We believe in you and we're cheering you on to reflect your unique perspective of God no matter where you are in the world. If you learned something new or you felt inspired by today's episode, I would love for you to leave a review like this Lucia did on Apple Podcast. She said. I love this podcast. The topics Kristin touches on and the guests she has have been so enlightening and vulnerable. It's helped me to consider different perspectives to grow my faith and love for others, and to ask myself the hard questions. Your review will help us to find other people who are looking for a different version of God, a different kind of church, or a gracious, welcoming place to grow grow in their faith. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.