Hannah Brencher: How Do You Want to Feel?

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Happy December and welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and today we are starting off the holiday season with a little mental health care. Because I don't know about you, I don't know about you, but for me, I will admit that the holiday season can bring some added stress. I originally invited my friend Hannah Brencher to come on and talk about her book, Come Matter Here, a book that made me absolutely fall in love with her as a writer way back in 2019. A few years later, I joined her launch team for her next book, fighting forward in 2021. And then just this last year, I got to meet her in person at a retreat for women in ministry. And I was so delighted that she really is the kind of person who just makes you feel lighter after being with them. I'm so, so pleased to introduce you to my friend, Hannah Brencher. All right, Hannah, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I've been so pumped to have this conversation. So ever since I met you. [00:01:24] Speaker A: Which that was this year, right? [00:01:26] Speaker B: I know. Yeah, it was, I think, like March or April. [00:01:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:30] Speaker B: So crazy. We're at the end of the year. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Now camp with Jess. I think she just did another soul camp. And part of me was super excited for the ladies that were there. And also I was like, oh, I. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Want to go back. I want to be back there. Yeah, it was such a good time. [00:01:43] Speaker A: So refreshing. Well, it is officially it's not soul camp season, but it's holiday season. Where are you in your, like, holiday planning? [00:01:51] Speaker B: I brought it on early this year. It was like, we did. We have always gotten a real tree and this year we went fake because I was like, I gotta have a tree. I just gotta have some, like, joy. I am, like, currently sitting beside a large stack of Christmas presents. [00:02:09] Speaker A: Perfect. [00:02:10] Speaker B: I think. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Wait, wait, like, decor presents or. You have already done that much? [00:02:14] Speaker B: I've already done the shop. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Anna, I'm so impressed and jealous. [00:02:19] Speaker B: I think, though, here's the thing. I think that when I look at the month, like, or I look at the year, December by nature I think is meant to be a cool down season. Right? Like, okay, we ramp up again. Like, I think I look at it kind of like a workout, and at the end of the workout, you should have the cool down. And that's what I see December as. But I think that we fail December with so much stuff that we really don't get the chance to cool down. And so for me, it was like, you know what? I can't control the events that are going to happen in December, but I can control some of this. And so I try to get a lot of the shopping done early so that, like, when December hits, like, I can just sit and enjoy Advent and. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Yeah, cheer on the rest of us who are, like, now running our marathons because we were not that planned ahead. [00:03:11] Speaker B: I'm constantly asking myself, like, how do I want to feel about this? And what I don't want to feel this year is, like, it's Christmas Eve and I have to go out to the stores, which has been me for many years. So I just. Yeah, I'm little by little just getting it done because Thanksgiving is late this year. So it's like, yeah, yeah. [00:03:30] Speaker A: Oh, I wrote that. I just wrote that question down, too. How do I want to feel about this? I'm like, we could apply that to someone. [00:03:35] Speaker B: So many things, so many areas. I apply it to all areas of my life. [00:03:39] Speaker A: That's good. It's so good. I love that. Well, and it relates, too, to, like, all the things that we're going to talk about. So I know it was a few years ago, but originally when I talked to you about coming on the podcast, I didn't know that you were about to release a new book, and I asked you to come on and talk about an old one. And so we're going to kind of do both. [00:03:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Today. But I. This come matter here. I've got it right here. [00:04:04] Speaker B: My favorite. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Oh, my lanta. I like, I will try to explain to you how this book moved me, but first, tell people what it's about. And so they kind of know, like, if this is for them. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so come matter here. Like, the overarching theme of the book is, like, learning to be rooted in the here and now within a world that is always telling us to, you know, live five years in the future, live in the next quarter, live five years in the past, whatever it may be. And for me, and I honestly think this is, like, a core message for me, something I will reckon with for my entire life. Like, I wanted, like, I really struggled to be in the present moment. And that is my story of learning to be rooted in the here and now. But it's also a story, like, a very transparent and honest story of going through a very severe depression that nearly took my life and coming out on the other side of that. And so I often say, like, that depression was really the catalyst for Me rebuilding my life on a more sure foundation, like, on a more sustainable. At a more sustainable pace, rhythm, all of that. And so, yeah, it's kind of all encapsulated income matter here, but each of the chapters is like a different theme that would apply to the reader. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. And I didn't. I don't even remember. I truly don't remember how this book came across my, like, how it came into my world. I was not following you at the time. Somehow somebody must have recommended this. And so depression is not something that I would say has been part of my story. I can be very prone to bitterness, but I know that that's very different. So I just. I don't even know why I picked this up and read it, but I do remember reading it in 2019. I was, like, relatively new on staff. I was new to ministry. I was trying to figure out, like, how someone like me, who is very not, like, prim and proper, you know, could be in ministry and in ministry leadership. And I just felt like I was living under this magnifying glass where everybody's purpose was just to, like, find my flaws and tell me why I probably wasn't good enough for ministry. Not to get me out of it, but in a way of, like, changing me. Like, yes, God called you to this, but now you need to change everything about who you are, you know, to answer it. And so one of the messages for me that I really took home, like, you spend a lot of time talking to people about taking an honest look at who they are. And I think you wrote the sentence, you must allow people to get to know you if you ever want to be anything more than impressive to them. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:50] Speaker A: And I was like, no, thank you. That sounds terrifying. [00:06:54] Speaker B: I don't want to take off the mask, and I don't want to. Well, and it's interesting, too, because I think especially, like, because I know we're kind of like interweaving conversations, but when you bring, like, all the tech that we have in daily life now into this, I think it's even harder because I think a lot of us have learned how to play and perform on the Internet, right? Like, and so it's almost like when we take back the layers, when we take off the mask, it's like, wait, who even am I? I don't even know. I've acted as this one person for so long that, like, when I get to the core of me, who is that person? And I think for a lot of us, it's like, that's like, an unearthing process right there. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Or we put the parts of. It's tricky, right? It's attention. Like, I try to be very honest and real and authentic on social media, but also. Yeah, you do have to protect. There are things that you're not going to air out. But, like, also, nor should you, you know? [00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally. I think. Yeah. It's an ever. It's an ever expanding lesson and discovery, I feel like, because I think for me, for a lot of years, it was like, oh, this is what people want to see. This is what people. Like, this is what makes people happy. I'll just do that. And even, like, now in, like, my 30s, I'm kind of like, wait, no, I'm getting back to, like, who I was and who I was meant to be. And it feels so freeing. But I think it's like, you go so long on this path of just like, I'll do whatever people want me to do. I'll do what makes them happy. I'll, like, if I had been in that role and people were like, change everything about you, there probably would have been a part of me, the people pleaser, that was like, yeah, I'll do it. Okay. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:36] Speaker B: You want me to fit in a box? I'll fit in your box. Like, and then. Then you realize you're not meant to fit in those boxes. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Right. I also think it's a wavy line, you know, Like, I did for a while tone down certain parts of me that, honestly, Hannah probably needed to be toned down a little bit, truly. But I've been able to then also find myself a little bit. And, you know, it's like, I had to, like, really, really, like, get small. I probably got too small in order to, like, find some humility. And then I've been able to then grow back up into who I really am, but, like, maybe in a little bit more mature way. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. [00:09:14] Speaker A: It's like up and downs, you know? [00:09:15] Speaker B: Up and down. Yeah, absolutely. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Well, you talk about learning to be. I think you just mentioned this, too. Like, learning to be where people are. Right? Like, where their feet are. How would you encourage somebody to do that if they're on this treadmill of, like, striving and striving and trying to, you know, always think ahead to the next thing. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's tough. It is like. Like I was saying, like, a lifelong quest, but it really is about, like, there is a part in the book about, like, a girl that had sent me an email, and she had, like, said that the motto that she and her roommate were living by at the time was this motto of just like, be where your feet are, you know, and it's like that is a continual reminder and a continual mantra in my life is just be here, be in the present moment. Like, I love to set goals, I love to look ahead. But like, this moment has something for me. This moment needs something of me. And I think that we can very easily miss our lives if we don't live with that expectation. You know, like, I'm somebody who's like, chronically, if there are meetings on the calendar, like, I tend to look at those meetings as like barriers to get me to the place where there are no meetings on the calendar. Like, I just want to be like cozied up in my bed watching Survivor, you know, like, that's my sweet spot. But that's something I've had to challenge myself with of like, oh no, but like God, like, what if you were in these meetings? Like, what if all of these have divine purpose? Like, I want to step into each opportunity and each thing coming up ahead, being present and paying attention, because that's honestly the only way that I've ever seen God moving in these circumstances. Otherwise I miss it. And I think the, the rub with it. What's hard about it is that we see people living these extravagant lives. They're traveling, they're doing all these things, they're making all this money. It's very easy to look at your day to day life and say, it's not good enough. We want to romanticize it. Like we just want to be in a different place place. Like we want to get to where that influencer is at or that speaker is at, when in actuality it's like, no, your, your life like needs to be cultivated. Your life needs to be built. If you don't like something about your life, you actually have the power to change that. No, you can't change people. Like, I think that that's very important to state. But like, you can change your posture, you can change how you show up, you can change how you pray. And like, that was such a revolutionary and something that I'm continually learning. It's like I get to decide how to show up in this moment and I get to show up how to take. I get to decide how to take up space in my ordinary everyday life that ends up actually being the most beautiful parts. I didn't know that for so long. [00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think there's so much self awareness too. Like, that has to be part of it. Like for me you know, when I started speaking and things, I was like, I did exactly what you just said. I was like, well, now I need to be on this stage, and now I need to have a bigger audience. Because I was like, oh, God gave me this gift and I'm good at it. And that can be true. I do think that's true. But at the same time, I had to really ask myself hard questions of like, well, why do I want to be on that stage? And if I only ever use my gifts. I remember, I don't know if I was praying or where this question even came from, but I remember for a long time I wrestled with, like, if I only ever speak at Mosaic, like our home, home, church, and nowhere else, will that be enough? And at first I was like, yes. But inside I was like, no. And I knew that. And it's something that I have been praying for years. And truly, truly, over the last year, I. A big revelation, actually, at Soul Camp, when we were with Jess, as I kind of had this realization that, like, yeah, it actually would be. And if other opportunities open up, great, I would love it. I would love nothing more than to get to speak to more people. But I am so fulfilled in what I get to do here and still using my gifts and pastoring my people well. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know how I would have arrived at that place without honestly praying, like, God, show up. Like you were saying, show up in these spaces. Show me how this is day to day life. [00:13:39] Speaker B: Because it's like, if you're always waiting for, like, the big thing that's going to show up on the calendar, it's like, okay, but like, what if that's not until six months from now? What if that's not until a year from now? What if that's not five years from now? And that's like, our culture. Right. It's like, I remember living in that space where it's like, okay, like, I'm doing my career, I'm hitting these milestones. Next big thing would be that I have to get married. The next thing after that, then I have to have a baby. There's all these, like, conventional constructs. [00:14:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:07] Speaker B: But in actuality, it's like, okay, but like, what if the person I'm meant to marry is not going to be ready for another two years? What am I doing in this interim time? And that is that, like, building the life that you love so that you don't have to say, I need to go somewhere else to feel like this is enough. And that's hard work, but it's good work. And then the beauty of it is that you still get to go out and live those dreams. Enlarge your tents, enlarge your visions. But, like, I don't know, it's like carrying that sense of enoughness within you wherever you go, that you're like, if I'm on a stage of 5,000 or I'm home wrapping Christmas presents, it's enough. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna put you on the spot here and ask you a attention question. Right? [00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So we want to be in the. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Moment and be where our feet are. But also, when we started, you said your Christmas shopping was already done, so you clearly are living in the future a little bit, which there, you know, I think both of these things can be true at the same time. But help the person listening who maybe is a little cynical, help them to understand, like, how we can be where our feet are and also plan maybe a little bit, you know? [00:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the thing. I think that, like, so I am a planner to my core. I am also, if you, like, get into my work processes, I'm like, I'm a bachelor. Like, I will batch. So, like, I send out, like, a Monday Club email every Monday. But, like, that is something where it's like, I sat down in August and I wrote all the Monday clubs through the end of the year. And the reason that I do that is because I say, okay, if I don't do this, this could be the thing that does keep me from being in the moment, you know? So, like, when I don't bash the Monday Club email, I am often spending much of Sunday night on my computer trying to come up with a message. Right. And so I think it's that planning to say, okay, how can I be the most present and awake in my daily life? And it's twofold. So it's like, oftentimes I sit in my quiet time in the morning. That's like, how I start my morning. I've stopped calling it my quiet time, and I've started calling it my morning meeting. Because what I will do is, like, I'll get into the scriptures, I'll pray, I'll do all that stuff. But, like, I've also just started to bring my calendar into the meeting, like, to be, okay, God, you're in all of this. And if you want me to walk with you all throughout today, then, like, let's look at what's coming up. [00:16:37] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. [00:16:38] Speaker B: But I also spend time Sitting in silence to wait for the things that God might place on my heart. Right? Because I've got my own plans, I've got my own agenda. God often has something different, Right? And so that is how in daily life, I root myself in the present moment. But something like Christmas shopping, you know, in November is more, so to say. Okay, like, I really do want to preserve this season. That, to me, this season is about Advent. It's about waiting. Well, it's about expectation. It's one. It's my favorite season of the year. So what would be the things that would deter me from walking this out peacefully? And one of those things for me is shopping. Like, I'm gonna be hustling to the stores with everybody else, and I didn't feel like doing that this year. Like. And so that's where it's like, okay, I made a plan, and then I just did it in bits. A lot of the gifts are gifts that I ordered. And so then to make that a joyful process, I set up a little car outside of my door to bless all of our delivery drivers. And so it's kind of like, okay, how can I be in my present everyday life? But also, like we said, like, know the things in my life that are not working, that need to be tweaked, that need to be changed for me to be present. So for me, it might be this. For you, it might be, oh, I might spend my whole entire season on TikTok. And it's like, okay, well, how do we look at that? And we plan and we reevaluate so that you can be more present. And I will say this, too, like, talking about being where our feet are, being more present. Like, actually living into the present moment. When you first get started, it's really uncomfortable. It's really not that fun. It's really not like, you're going to, like, immediate. Like, I don't think, like, in practicing presence, I immediately was like, oh, it's all right here. I love this so much. Like. Like, you go through a season of wanting to just be like, what do I do with my hands? Like, no, I need to do something. I need to plan something. It really is a practice. It's a practice of learning to be still, learning to say, this is enough. Learning to rewrite the stories. Because for me, like, the story was just like, you have to be going. You have to be doing. You have to be producing in order to be worthwhile. And I think that's a lot of the stories of people within the church and you start to dismantle that and like, tell yourself a different story. And it's like, yeah, all hell is probably going to break loose. Because I think that that would be like a true victory for us to be present and awake to the right here, right now. And I think that's why there's so much opposition and so much resistance to it. Did that answer the question? It was like Christmas presents resistance. [00:19:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it did. I think it was great. And you're right. Like, I think the enemy want, wants us tapped out, right? And busy, busy, busy. Because then, guess what? We're not interruptible. That's the other thing I'm constantly reminding myself, like, Jesus was interruptible and he was doing far more important things than I'm doing. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Truly. Yeah. [00:19:37] Speaker A: But he was constantly stopping for the people that need it. And there are times where I will get a text or whatever and I'm like, not now, like, not today, you know? [00:19:45] Speaker B: No. And so for me, like, it's funny because it's like I talk a lot about how, like in my courses that I teach on like self discipline and routines and rhythms. Like, one of the things that I tell people to do is like, make a list of the person you're becoming. And I have them do this because I think it's very easy to hop on social media these days, see what's working for somebody else, try to adapt that lifestyle, even though that's not really even for you in some cases. And so if we can make a list of the person that we're becoming, then we can start to look at like, okay, what would be the habits and the rhythms and routines of that person? Right. And for me, in my own own process, I knew that I wanted to become a person that was not frantic, that was not last minute, that was intentional. Like I wanted that more than I've wanted any like, career milestone, if I'm being honest. Because if you asked me a few years ago, I was the person that was like, oh, there's a birthday party, we're gonna stop at Target on the way, grab the gift, throw it in a gift bag and that's fine, that's all well and good. It felt very chaotic to me. It felt very like last minute. And so like, I think there's that part of me that it's like now I've given myself self space to plan and to breathe and to be intentional and like the rhythms and routines of somebody who is intentional and others minded. It's like, you know, there's time to put thought into a Gift. There's time to wrap the gift. There's time. Like, and so that was where that came from. Was like, writing that down of, like, I really want to be a person who is intentional and not frantic. This is how that kind of person acts. [00:21:19] Speaker A: I think that gives hope, too, Hannah, to people who are in a season where they're like, I literally just cannot. Like, I've got tiny kids, or I've got. I'm doing it all on my own or whatever it is. I think that future planning gives hope to. Maybe you can't control it right now, but when you have the opportunity, like, what small changes can you make? [00:21:40] Speaker B: Small tweaks. It's all small. It's all micro in everything. Honestly, like, in my battle with mental illness. Yeah, small. In unplugging small. Like, we try to overhaul, and that's why nothing ever changes, because we're always trying to do a 75 hard or a whole 30 or whatever it is. [00:21:58] Speaker A: That's what, again, is a doing. It's a doing of doing. [00:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Well, you I want to hit on before we get to the unplugged hours. You were very honest and vulnerable and authentic in Come matter here. And you mentioned you had a really severe season of depression. I know you just celebrated recently you're coming out of the woods day. [00:22:20] Speaker B: So what. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Tell me about that first. What did you do to celebrate? [00:22:24] Speaker B: Okay, so, yeah, the day I was trying to explain this to my mom the other day, because she was like, wait, so coming out of the woods? Is that the day you came out of the woods? And I was like, no, that's the day I went into the woods. Yeah, we took it back in the name of Jesus, you know? But, yeah, my life broke into on November 18, 2014. And I wrote recently about how, like, yeah, I saw all the wording signs. I saw all the signs that I was probably depressed, but I didn't listen to them. I didn't slow down. I didn't get a therapist. I didn't do any of it. You know, I don't know why, but I just didn't. I think I was in denial. And on that day, specifically, like, the best way that I can describe it is like, it's like my brain broke. Like, really, truly. Like, I felt a physical pain from my head to my toe. And from that moment forward, it felt like my brain was hijacked. Like I was having dark thoughts, rumination spirals. I would lose hours just thinking myself into these circles. And, like, I met with a neurologist who Basically explained that years later it's like you're, your brain basically broke. It was like too overloaded, too stressed, running too hard, that all systems went down. So I went from like fully functioning, running a business to like barely being able to send emails without having an anxiety attack. And over the next four months, fought for my life, fought hard for my life. And that was when I realized like, oh, okay, the way that I've been living is not sustainable. It's like get up and go and, and don't plant roots and don't let people in. It's not sustainable. It will literally kill me. And so it's funny because it's like, I think I remember coming up on the one year anniversary of November 18th and kind of freaking out, like, oh gosh, like, am I gonna go back into this place? You know, because it's like the body remembers trauma. But I made a decision in that moment of like, no, I'm going to take this day back for me. I'm going to celebrate this day that the darkness didn' win in my story. So like, yeah, chronologically that's the day that it looked like the darkness was going to win. But now looking back, I'm like, no, that's the day that like, like I learned how to come out of the woods. And so every day I put it in the light. I encourage other people to like, figure out what they're coming out of the woods day is because it's different for all of us. And then I've done various celebrations. Sometimes we've gone on camping trips, we've gone on fancy dinners. Like literally this time was so simple. I did a bunch of that Christmas shopping because I thoroughly enjoy the shopping, right? When it's not under a time constraint, right? I didn't work that day. I like went to Starbucks, I got a little holiday latte. I like, you know, stocked all the things that I love to do that I like feel like I can easily like save for like the pockets of time. And it's frantic. And so that, and it just was a day to savor and enjoy and like celebrate. But it's interesting because it's like back then I probably would have said like celebrations, they have to be big, they have to be fancy. And I'm like, no, there are such little ways to celebrate in daily life. And I think that's like part of what makes being where your feet are so special is like finding those ways to celebrate the victories. Even if the victory is like the pants today, even if the victory is Getting out of bed, celebrate that. It is freaking hard in 2024 to be a human. We need to celebrate every chance we get. That, like, made it through another day. Yeah. [00:26:03] Speaker A: And all those tiny little joys. Like, I know, you know, people like to make fun of Starbucks girlies for being so basic and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, you know what, Call me basic if you want, but if there is a day where I say I'm like, I just need a little joy or I'm celebrating something or it's going to spur me on and I want to get a pumpkin spice latte, whatever it is, like, I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna thank God that he made it because it is delicious and it is going to bring me just a little bit of extra something. [00:26:33] Speaker B: Well, and just this is a side note, but it does kind of touch on it. It's like that. Exactly. I think it comes back to what we were saying. It's like knowing yourself, knowing what you love, knowing what those little joys and delights are that you can give yourself. So for me, it like, might be the Starbucks or like, you know, in a regular afternoon, it's like, I'm gonna make myself a little cup of tea. Oh, I've got like my favorite little drink in the fridge. Like, things like that, they are self care. It's taking care of yourself. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker B: As you hustle, as you push, as we all live these crazy lives, it's like those to me are the little pit stops. They're like the ways to check in with yourself that, like me 10 years ago in that depression had none of that. None of that. [00:27:15] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and you also talked about starting medication and what a struggle that was too. And we are very pro medicine here. I very much believe in Jesus and science. But what do you think it is, Hannah, that the church maybe gets wrong about mental health? I know this could be the whole podcast, like, let me loose and what, what do we get wrong and what can they do better? [00:27:39] Speaker B: Gosh, I will say feel like I feel like we have made strides. I do feel like we've made strides. And I see it every year. It gets a little bit easier to talk about depression, anxiety. It's not like 10 years ago it was like we were not talking about it. Like we were not. And I don't know, to be honest, I have no clue. I don't understand the issue with the medication. I think it may be because when, like when medication first came to the forefront, it was at a time where we were not talking about depression and anxiety. And so it kind of felt foreign. And so, as a result, felt stigmatized. Okay. But, man, I mean, I remember being in that spot, having doctors tell me that I needed medication, and I didn't want the medication because I was so scared that, like, God would be mad at me or other people had said things over my life that made me feel like I shouldn't need medication. And I look back now, and I'm like, my brain was broken. My brain was not producing serotonin. I needed help. Right? Just in the way that somebody who is sick and needs medicine is not afraid to take that medicine, you know? And I. And that's why I, literally, any chance I get, talk about medication. I am not advocating for it for, like, you need to be on it for life, but if you are, that's fine. I'm not advocating for so much medication that you can't feel anything at all. Like, that's its own thing. But, like, man, like, I have been on medication for 10 years. I'm still on it today. I have tried, I think, once or twice to go off of it. And I was just like, my brain should not have to work this hard. And, like, that's also coming from, like, somebody who, like, works really hard to, like, move her body, fuel herself, take a functional medicine approach. And I am still on Prozac, like, still on it, because for me to thrive, I need that. For me to show up for my daughter, I need that. For me to show up to my family, I need that. And, gosh, I think that we are. We are moving closer in talking about it. It does seem, though, that we still talk a lot about, like, depression, but, like, not medication, you know? [00:30:07] Speaker A: Okay. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Yeah. But I do remember years ago, like, a few years ago, I got this, like, Instagram message from this girl who basically told me that I wasn't living in the full power of God because I had taken medication and that it. God could have healed me in an instant if I'd had that faith. And I'm like, this is why we talk about this, because that is so damaging. And there were people within my fight for depression that were saying things like that to me that I didn't. I was so, so confused. I was so not in my right mind that I believed them. And now looking back, you're like, no, that's. No, that is not the character of God. That is not the way that I'm going to approach healing. Like, just because I've not been a hundred percent healed does not mean that Me and God are not partnered in the work that we do every single day. But, like, yeah, I may walk with a limp for the rest of my life. And you know what? I'm fine with that because that is what allows me to break open the conversations with other people. That is what allows me to help somebody get to the doctor to start taking medication that they have needed to take for five years. And so I get very fired up about the conversation because I'm like, I think that God wants us to be. Well, he wants us to be whole. He designed us for abundance. And we are living in a fallen world where there are so many factors and circumstances that could keep us from that. It's our food system, it's the environment. There's so much there that it's like, if you take a medication or you have to take a medication for a season, and it makes you feel like you don't have to fight so hard that you're not crying every single day that you're actually showing up to love people in the way that you want to love them. Like, to me, that is a gift. That is a modern gift. Like. And so, yeah, sorry. I am like, no, I love it. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Go. I was like, yes, yes. Well, that's. And that is the danger, right? The danger is. I'm just thinking, even from, like, a pastoral this past Sunday, I actually. I thought I was just doing a message on, like, making peace with your past. Like, that's what the message was, but it really did. I talked about therapy, and I talked. I encourage people to go to therapy. And I can't tell you, Hannah, the number of people that talked to me after or have messaged me to say, thank you so much for advocating for mental health, like, from the pulpit, because it doesn't happen. And they. There were just so many stories, like you said, of damage where people are not in their right mind, are already questioning that whether or not their faith is strong enough, if God still loves them, still sees them, if God has removed himself from their lives. So then for them to go to church and then hear like, oh, yeah, actually your faith is not strong enough, or you would not be dealing with this is just, I mean, breaking, like, the tiniest little shreds of faith or connection that they've got left, where. Yeah, if the medication helps you to hear God instead of all the other voices, like, I want to, like, give it out to people. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it was like, when I remember taking it for the first time. And, yeah, it took a few weeks to, like, get into My system, they often say it gets worse before it gets better, but, like, man. And it was like, one day, I was like, the fog lifted, and I was like, so you're saying I could have been experiencing this for years? Because, like, now looking back, like, that was a very severe depression. But I could see I'd always been prone to anxiety. I. Even as a little kid, I just didn't have the language for it. I dug deeper into my health to be like, oh, like, I had psoriasis and still have psoriasis. That's an autoimmune disease. It's often tied to low serotonin production, which is often tied to depression. Like, it was all right there, but it was like I felt for some reason, if I'm not struggling, it's not holy enough or something, you know? [00:34:10] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. [00:34:11] Speaker B: And, like, I remember, too, Like, I think there was a lot of conversation at that time of, like, oh, well, if you. You are. Like, if you are depressed, you just need to get closer to God. You just need to dig in deeper. You just need to pray more. And I look back at that, and I'm like, that was maybe one of the unhealthiest things I ever did at that time, to take a new believer who did not know the Bible, who was having ruminations and intrusive thoughts, trying to just know God. It just spiraled me deeper and deeper and deeper where I look back and I wish that someone had said, like, hey, you need community. You need a therapist. You need medication. You need to, like, take a break from trying to read the Bible on your own. Like, maybe get a study, maybe get a Max Lucado book. He seems to believe that God loves him. You know, I always pick up Max Lucado when I need a reminder that, like, God really loves me. But, like, I. But we didn't have the language to talk about it. And so that's where it's like that I will spend my whole entire breath, every second that I'm on this earth, helping people. And even though I have been in remission from that severe depression for 10 years, that's not like, oh, it went away. And now it's. It is like, every day we have to work to stay in maintenance mode. And it looks a lot more rigorous than I think most people choose to live their lives. And it looks like a lot more self. Self discipline, but it's literally like, this is what I have to do to be a healthy, thriving, whole person. And so, yeah, in ways, I do have that struggle, because there are definitely times where I'm like, you know what? I want to throw this all to the side and just, like, live however I want to live. But, like, no, this is that narrow path of, like, every day to stay healthy. These are the things that I have to do when I find God in those things. [00:36:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'm. I hate that you had to go through it, but I'm also so grateful for your voice. I have a mom. I'm a mom of two daughters with generalized anxiety. One diagnosed, one going through the process of the diagnosis we're pretty sure is going to come. And so, yeah, I'm just. I'm grateful for the way that you continue to just bravely show up and keep talking and encouraging people. [00:36:26] Speaker B: So thank you. I will do it till I die. I'll be here. I'm gonna be here. [00:36:32] Speaker A: Good. If you are struggling with your mental health, I've linked up some resources in the show. Notes. Please don't believe the lie that this is how things will always be or that you are not worth the time and attention it will take to make things different. Struggling with your mental health is not a sign of weak faith. God sees you, and he's right there with you. He isn't disappointed in you, and he wants you to be well. He loves you, and he wants you to be whole. Call the mental health hotline 24 hours a day, seven days a week, at 866-903-3787, where someone is waiting just to listen and help. Now back to my conversation with Hannah. All right, well, your next book. This one just came out recently. I've got it also right here. The other unplugged hours. [00:37:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:27] Speaker A: Okay. We're going to do a little quick fire, because if I'm being honest with you, other people are going to do what I did, and they're going to see this, and they're going to think that you're demonizing social media and telling them to turn their phones off. So here's what we're going to do to let people know. We're going to ease them in. We're going to do a little quick fire about technology. Good stuff. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Good. [00:37:47] Speaker A: I want to know, what is your favorite app on your phone? [00:37:50] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I have so many apps that I do love, but I love. No, I love Instagram. I really love it. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Okay, good. [00:37:57] Speaker B: I. I would say that unplugging made me love it more. [00:38:00] Speaker A: Oh, excellent. [00:38:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:01] Speaker A: Okay. What's your favorite thing about the Internet, like, as a whole? [00:38:06] Speaker B: I think. Okay. As somebody who grew up like, I grew up wanting to be an author my whole entire life. Had I been an author 20 years ago, like, I may have gotten some, like, fan mail, letters in the mail, but, like, I think it is such, such an awesome privilege and a gift to be able to connect with readers on a daily basis that they can email me, that they can message me. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I. I think that's what I love, is the way that we can connect with one another and the way that, like, say, for instance, you and me, we met in person, but now we have continually been able to keep up with one another because of social media. And I think that's really beautiful. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Super fun. All right, who's somebody that you love to follow? [00:38:52] Speaker B: Gosh, I have so many friends that I love to follow. I love my friend Carly Roman. She wasn't my friend when I started following her. I just would watch all of her videos. But she does, like, Day in the Life as, like, a stay at home mom who's, like, budgeting. I love her to pieces. She's a wonderful person in and out. But I. I love watching Day in the Life videos. They give me so much joy, and I think that's because I like to see other people's rhythms and rout. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, what's something that you've learned from the Internet or from social media. [00:39:25] Speaker B: That it probably would benefit a lot of people's mental health to, like, take a break from it or get some boundaries? Because I don't know if you've been on social media these days, but people are feral right now. They are feral. Like, there's actually. [00:39:39] Speaker A: You are so accurate. So accurate. [00:39:41] Speaker B: There's actually, like, science out there. There is a research experiment that happened many years ago that, like, determined that we cap out at. I think it's 125 connections. That is the capacity of what we have to handle. And when you tip the scale and make it go past that, people get feral. They get angry, they fight each other. Like, they get primal. And the people that designed Facebook, they knew about that experiment. They wanted to tip the scales. And as a result, I look at the comment section sometimes and I'm like, oh, my goodness. And then if I go to your profile, I'm sure you've quoted songs like, I, I. Some people really need a detox. They need to take a break. They do. Yeah. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I try to not respond to the comments, but I did have to get in one there the other day because somebody came for me and had a scripture Listed in their profile about like, you know, Jesus calling them to ministry. And I was like, oh. So per your scripture in your bio, who is it again that gets to decide and why I'm not allowed to do what I'm doing. Okay, okay. And I digress. Thank you so much. [00:40:54] Speaker B: Our thing is like, I. If somebody leaves a mean comment, I literally like, kill them with kindness. It works nearly every time because people are not expecting you to be kind. And I'm like, that's all we're going to do is be kind. Same thing. We get an email and it's mean. It's like, let's just kill them with kindness. [00:41:13] Speaker A: Yep. Oh, once somebody even messaged me, somebody was snarky. I was super kind. And then they actually sent me a DM and apologized and was like, that's insane. I didn't actually expect that. And it made me realize how. And I was like, you could have done that publicly and like shown everybody that. But also, I'll take it. [00:41:32] Speaker B: People are either expecting a fight or they. This is the thing that has come up over and over again. People are not expecting you to respond. [00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Which means that all of the anger or the bitterness or the discontent that the Internet trolls are facing and feeling, they're lobbing it in the direction of people that they think are like two dimensional characters. So the best thing that you can do is respond and be like, I'm a person. Thanks, thanks for letting me know. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Right. And then it gets very quiet. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Yes, it does. Yeah. [00:42:05] Speaker A: All right, so explain to our listeners the unplugged hours, what it is, how you came up with a thousand hours. The whole thing. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Yes. So I am not anti phone, I'm not anti social media. I didn't realize until marketing this book how hard it was going to be to market this book. Like, because I've been unplugging for years now and it's become a daily rhythm in my life that has been so life giving. But then I started to do these interviews and I was like, oh, people don't want to unplug. [00:42:37] Speaker A: No, they don't. [00:42:38] Speaker B: And if they do, like, they're like, that's a nice concept, but I'm not really going to do it. And so it was site. It's been actually really difficult and eye opening. But what I'm talking about basically is again, why I came up with a thousand hours was because I'm not telling anybody, hey, unplug your phone for a thousand hours in one fell swoop. Like, you don't need to Go off the grid. You don't need to throw your phone away. You don't need to go live off in a commune in the woods. So that would probably be very nice. Like, yeah, it's more so, like, can we find pockets in daily life where we are present, where we are uninterrupted, where our attention is going to the thing that we are doing? Whether it is a bedtime routine, whether it is your own nighttime routine, whether it is cooking a meal for your family, whether it is your quiet time. Can we start to isolate these hours? I think the hour is the perfect metric for it to be. Be with ourselves. And, like, it's been absolutely life changing for me. I think of all the rhythms I have ever cultivated in my life, unplugging is the best one. It is the one that has made me feel more myself than I have ever felt in my life. And it ebbs and it flows because it's like, I don't think that unplugging necessarily gets easier. Like, I don't think, like, now, thousands of unplugged hours later, like, I get to this point now where I just, like, naturally am an unplugged person. Like, but every time I turn off my phone, I am reminded of, like, this is why I love this. This is why I love unplugging. It's like, the time to think, breathe, be creative, deal with my feelings, all of it. I think that's, like, the biggest barrier that we're facing, and I think the barrier that's contributing to a lot of mental illness right now is that there's too much noise, there's too much overstimulation, there's too many things to check, and as a result, we are these, like, frantic, anxious people. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, practically. How did you start? Like, if somebody was like, you know, like you said, that's cute. [00:44:47] Speaker B: That's fun. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's real good for you, Hannah. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Yay. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Yay. Like, where. Where do they start? Because truly, in my mind, I'm like, well, I slept for seven hours, so I'm gonna fill in seven bubbles. [00:45:00] Speaker B: Always want to do the sleep. I know that is cheating. No. But will sometimes say, though, like, I will count my naps as unplugged. I will. That counts. That counts. [00:45:11] Speaker A: That counts. [00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah, because, like, you're choosing to rest your body rather than scroll, you know? Okay. So originally, before I ever had the trackers, the only time that I really unplugged would be, like, for work. I wanted to do really focused work. I'm in that, like, focused Work pile, you know? And so I had this little tin box, and whenever I was going to do any kind. Kind of creative writing or brainstorming, all of that, I would take my phone and I would put it in the box, and that was it. It was like, I'm not telling anybody. They have to turn it off, but put it away. Just put it away. But it was, like, during my quiet time several years ago that I was. It was my birthday, I remember, and I was, like, making all these plans for the year to come, and I felt this nudge in my spirit. And it's like, only a handful of times in my life has this happened that I've heard something so clearly. And I just heard, turn off your phone. And I knew in that moment, it was like, not turn off your phone once. Reap all the benefits. Like, I knew this was like, a no. We're going to spend this year turning off your phone. And if anything, I want to be obedient. Right? So that's why I made a tracker. I am a big believer that you can't manage what you don't measure. And that's why a lot of us start things and we fail things. We're not measuring it if we're trying to just measure it in our mind. We're gonna end up back at day one over and over and over again. And so I looked realistically at, like, okay, a thousand hours in one year comes out to around three to four unplugged hours a day. [00:46:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:46:49] Speaker B: It's not impossible. It's hard. Yes. And then I just started going hour by hour. That was it. Literally. I didn't even look at the full thousand. I just was like, okay, today I want to be unplugged for the morning for getting my daughter ready for school. I don't want to be, like, on my phone when I'm driving her to the carpool line. Okay. That ends up being one hour. Okay, at night, I don't want to be checking my emails. I don't want to be, like, doing that one last task. And so I started turning off my phone at, like, 6 or 7pm okay. The beautiful thing is that the tracker doesn't mean it has to be every day. I think that that's something that we get stuck on with discipline. And why we fail so much is because if it's an everyday thing, again, we're not designed for overhauls. And so you miss a day, you feel you got to go back to square one. I'm like, no, a thousand hours could be Three hours, it could be playing catch up. Later in the month, it could be doing a longer sabbath, where for 24 hours, you are on your phone as little as you can be. And so I had to just kind of learn hour by hour, how to make this a routine, how to make this a practice. And it became easier over time as I figured out the things that I loved doing and the things that I loved doing. Fully present. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And I do really appreciate that the tracker is just a bunch of bubbles. It's just a thousand bubbles. Because if it was on a. On a calendar, if it was day, an hour and whatever. [00:48:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:18] Speaker A: I would be real good for the first week. And then I would throw it in the trash because this. [00:48:23] Speaker B: No. And that's. I would even say. I would say to anybody that you're looking at it and you're like, I don't ever turn off my phone. I'm never without my phone. I'm checking it day and night. Then don't even start with an hour. Start with 15 minutes. You know? [00:48:36] Speaker A: That's good. That's good. Yeah. [00:48:37] Speaker B: I would say think about something you've wanted to do for a while or something that's been looming over your head that you've known that you need to do. [00:48:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:45] Speaker B: Set a timer for 15 minutes. Put the phone away, do the thing. You'll come back to your phone, and it will all be there. It'll all be there. Won't go away. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And that counts, right? Like, yeah, if you're gonna take a nap, if you're gonna go see a movie, if you're gonna. Whatever. Like, all that counts. [00:49:00] Speaker B: All of it counts. Yeah. Like, if me and my husband sit down to watch a movie at the end of the day and we're both not on our phones and we're watching a film that is unplugged to me, because we are. It's more so about your attention. Where are you placing your attention? So if we were to sit down and watch a movie and we're both scrolling, that's not unplugged. But if we are, like, both intentionally placing our attention on a piece of art that has been created, like, that, to me, is unplugged. And so that's the other thing. You define what unplugged means for you. It should feel like freedom. It should feel like joy. It should not make your life harder. And so you have to figure out what that looks like for you and then own it. I get people all the time that are like, I love to listen to audiobooks And I feel unplugged in that time. I'm like, great, great, go for it. That counts. Like, you do a workout on your phone. That counts. Like, you get to decide, but, like, have fun with it. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Yes, I love that. And I love the idea to have present. Like, I would not count if I was in a meeting for an hour and couldn't check my phone. Like, I would not count that because I'm not doing something present. I'm not like, revit. Yeah, I didn't look at it. But I'm also, like, doing this intensive work thing, you know, that doesn't count to me. [00:50:12] Speaker B: No, I'm with you. I'm. Because I'm also probably in that. Checking calendars, checking emails, all of. So, yeah, yeah, I think it really comes down to attention, am I being fully present in this moment? And then that's when I gauge whether it's, like, considered an unplugged hour or not. [00:50:30] Speaker A: So one more tip, Hannah, for people that. Because you said you love Instagram, as do I, what's your best tip for people engaging in balancing, like, engaging in real life and also on social media, Maybe especially for the person that is in a new city or doesn't have a lot of relationships. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:48] Speaker A: You know what? How can they manage the two? [00:50:52] Speaker B: I think it really comes down to, like, what we've been saying. This whole conversation is, like, you have to know yourself, right? Like, so, like, you know what's working, what's not working. And so for me personally, I think years ago, I think especially when I started unplugging, I do feel like I felt like my life was online. I felt like that was where I had to be because it made me feel important, it made me feel seen, it made me feel validated. And it's so freeing now to be like, you know what? That's a place that I go online for work, for connection, but my life is not there anymore. And so I think it comes down to, like, okay, where are you spending too much time online? What are some tweaks and boundaries you can make as a content creator? I would say the first thing that I would tell you to do is to stop. Stop creating on the platform. That is, like, the biggest thing. I think we go as content creators online to figure out what to post. Our ideas are not there. Our ideas are not in somebody else's feed. I cannot recommend enough, like, building a creative space for you to come up with ideas for how to serve your people well and then show up on the app when you have Something to break. Almost like it's really good when you go to a dinner party. Like, don't go to a dinner party empty handed. Bring something with you. And so that's kind of my rule of thumb in a lot of ways. It's like, especially with Instagram, I'm not going on that app unless I have something to contribute to that app or I'm tying up a loop. I'm, I, I try to comment on nearly as many comments as I can get to for that connection piece with my people. I'm also just like a big advocate of like, like, you know, it's my social media platforms. It's going to be me responding to those things, it's going to be me posting. And so it's not like I'm telling anybody, hey, get off social media for good. We've seen people do that. We've seen people in droves leave social media. And I had to step back for myself and be like, okay, when I first got on this platform, it was fun. I enjoyed it. How do we get back to that place? And that's again, it's the little by little, it's the bit by bit, it's the handling the hour ahead of you rather than trying to overhaul your existence or put all these, like, app blockers on your phone. [00:53:14] Speaker A: I think what you're going to ignore anyway, the timer is going to. [00:53:17] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:53:18] Speaker A: You've hit an hour and you're going to go, I don't care. [00:53:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's where I think, like, you just have to. The, the biggest thing for me has been, like, approaching myself with compassion and almost like parenting myself. Like, I can parent my daughter. I know that, like, as much as she would like to sit and watch Paw Patrol all day, it's not good for her. She needs sunlight, she needs meals, she needs connection. And so I give her all those things. Yeah, I should do the same for myself. I should say, you know what, I know you want to sit on TikTok all day, but, like, what about reading a book? What about going for a walk? What about listening to an audiobook? And so it's parenting yourself better with your relationship with social media. [00:54:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. That's good. All right, so the last question, because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how will unplugging help listeners become the church to the people around them? [00:54:13] Speaker B: You will pay attention more to the people around you. You will take. I have this, like, note in my phone that I keep that I like, write down little notes of things that, like, my Friends say that they love or that they always have or, you know, and so. So that is really what the phone is doing. It's stealing our attention. And I think the best way to be church is to see the people around us. And so whether that's like, my neighbors, whether that is the delivery drivers, whether that is the man experiencing homelessness on the side of the road, if I am distracted, I cannot see them. When I am present, I can feel the nudges from God telling me like, hey, hey, make the cinnamon rolls. Hey, make the card and put it in the mailbox. Hey, next time that you're by this roadside, bring cash. I think those nudges are happening all the time. But if we're too overloaded by the notifications, we miss the most important ones. [00:55:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. That's so good. I do truly think that Holy Spirit shows up in every second of the day, and we, for phone or whatever reason, I just think we miss. Miss so much of God communicating to us and showing up in different places, because either we're distracted or we're looking for it to be something else. Like, we think we know what God is gonna say. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Yep. [00:55:35] Speaker A: And so when he says something different, we're like, oh, well, that's not you, because I'm waiting on you to say this. [00:55:40] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh, it's so true. It goes like. I love that verse, Psalm 5. About, like, I lay the pieces on my light of my life, life on the altar and wait expectantly. And I'm like, that is what I want to do in every hour of my day. It's like, here, God. This is my life. This is the next hour. This is the next three hours. Where do you want to show up? What do you have for me? And he answers, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Well, this has been so great. I will link up the books and your Instagram and all of the things. Also really, really quick, because it is maybe my favorite thing that you do. You're doing Advent this year, right? [00:56:19] Speaker B: Yes. I love. [00:56:21] Speaker A: What's your theme? What's the Advent theme? Just give us the tiniest little sneak peek. [00:56:24] Speaker B: Honestly, it's. It's presence. It's always presents. It's about paying attention. And I think, like, the core of it is, like, I take people through the Christmas story that when I started to investigate the Christmas story and pay attention to it, I was like, oh, this is nothing like what I grew up with. This was nothing like the nativity actually portrayed. And. And it's that's it. Like, it's, it's an investigative look at the season of Advent and getting people to pay attention to the season. [00:56:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I have. I am. I'm sure I have quoted you because I know for a fact that every time I write a Christmas message, I actually go to your Advent like emails. And I've got them saved from years because I. I just. They're so beautiful and I love them so much. So I'm gonna link that up too so everybody can go read them. [00:57:09] Speaker B: Thank you. I love you. [00:57:12] Speaker A: I love you. Thanks for being here. I can't encourage you enough to sign up for Hannah's Advent emails using the link in the show notes. You just scroll down wherever it is that you're listening to this episode and the links are always right there underneath. Also, if you're looking for people to spend Christmas with, we would love to have you celebrate with us at Mosaic. If you're local, you can join us on Christmas Eve at 4pm or 6pm for Christmas Carols, Santa pictures in front of the Christmas tree, a message on the hope of Jesus, and a candlelight singing of Silent Night. If you're not able to make it in person, you can join us for the service online at Mosaic CLT Online Church. Either way, I hope this conversation helps you to have a more peaceful holiday season and would love for you to share it with someone else who maybe could use the same thing. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.