Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming a Christian, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is truly one of my favorite people in the church world. It's Joe Saxton. I've known Jo for years, and she's been a really influential voice in my life, especially as I was taking that brave step into ministry with all kinds of insecurities and questions. Whether you're a leader, you want to be a leader, or you're just trying to figure out what your place even is, you'll love listening to and learning from my friend Joe.
Welcome, Joe Saxton, to Becoming Church.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Yay. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Yes. I love. Actually, people can't see this because it was before I hit record, but you came in, like, singing and dancing as soon as your face popped up on the screen.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: It's a Friday morning. It's wonderful. It's wonderful.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: It is, it is. I just know we're gonna have a good day. Not only that, it's. Yesterday was your birthday.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Yes, it was. Yes.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: So fun riding that birthday high. I like it.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: I am. I am. Because it kind of now goes into the weekend and you get to chill and relax, do all of these things. So. Yeah.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Yes. Do you have any celebrations this weekend? Anything fun that you did or are gonna do?
[00:01:31] Speaker B: I went out. I went out for dinner with my husband and my daughter last night, which was lovely. And then. But to be honest, I'm really excited because this weekend I have nothing on, and it's been the first weekend in weeks where there's not been loads of things to do. And so I'm really grateful for all of that.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: As I've gotten older and or further in ministry, those are now my favorite to be like, I need a party, I need an event. And now I'm like, when there is a day on my Google calendar that has no colors on it, it's a delight.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: A delight.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Celebration. It is.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Well, I. We want to celebrate you just a little bit. So we're going to start with a couple just, like, quick fire Q and A questions.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: So I know that you are. You're a lipstick girl. I've watched you go through, like, a navy blue phase.
What's your current favorite lip color?
[00:02:27] Speaker B: I am currently in my neutrals phase, so my. I brought them with me. My favorites. I have two favorites. One is called Legacy Velvet.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: I mean, even the name just has it and that's by. That's Dior. And then I have a nars one called Bewitched. And they're both browns, they're both dark browns. And I thought, oh, I feel like it's time. It's time. I wanted to have a neutral, Like a high quality neutral phase.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Yes, yes. That's. That's when you can go like, I'm trying, but it doesn't look like I'm super trying.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: What? It's like I'm here, I'm together, but, you know, but this is.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: This is it. Yeah. I love it.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Classic. It feels classic. It feels like I should be wearing cashmere.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Well, you're also a food girl, so what is the recent food that you are loving?
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Oh, you know, I found a resurgence of a love for carrot cake.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Really?
[00:03:27] Speaker B: I love carrot cake. And somehow, and this is one of these problems, because now this has consequences that I seem to be going round places. I went. When I went out for dinner last night, I was planning on not having dessert. And then it said they had carrot cake. And I'm like, tell me about your carrot cake. And he said, well, a few people have said it's the best they've ever had. And I said, I guess I'm having carrot cake. Right. And there went my resistance.
So, yeah, carrot cake is a big favorite of mine. I just love it. I love the nuts, I love the. I even like the carrot in the cake. It's weird, but wonderful. I love it.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Okay. See, shockingly, it's not the carrots that get me. It is the nuts in the cake. I can't get past it.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Oh, you don't like nuts and cakes?
[00:04:11] Speaker A: No.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Like, oh, that's a little surprise that I didn't expect, nor did I want to find, actually.
I like that frosting, that cream cheese frosting, but. Oh, yes, yes.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: That's all right. All right, so let's. More carrot cake for you. All right. What is something that you love about yourself?
[00:04:38] Speaker B: I.
I. Oh, I. I love.
Now I'm not wondering because I'm lost. I'm like, which one do I want to go for today?
Funny. I like. I like making people laugh, and I like that I'm funny for people.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: And for me, I like making myself laugh. So.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, good. I love that about you too. Also, I knew that you were a person I could ask this question to without a caveat, because so many people struggle to, like, we want to. We want to be humble and, oh, I don't know. And blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I can ask Joe this question flat out, and she is just going to give me an answer without any of that false humility.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: There we go.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: I love that about you also.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: All right, how about a recent experience that you had that you've loved?
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Oh, gosh.
A recent experience. Like. Like kind of something I did.
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Anything. I mean, it can be like, big, small, whatever.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: You know what? I was at this retreat recently for Christian women CEOs.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: And it was at a resort spa. And so people were walking around in robes. It was like. It was amazing. It was amazing. Just. And walk around with slippers and. I mean, it was. It was. Yeah. I think that was a wonderful experience. And an endless supply of salmon or something. It was just wild.
I thought, I'm gonna really miss this.
I'm gonna miss this about my life. How. How is my. How am I going to cope on Monday? Not walking around in robes and. And sitting in the sun and it feeling deep and reflective. It was lovely.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: That's fantastic. That is a group of women that are like, I work so hard all the time, and I know I'm gonna have to work as soon as I get home. So I am living in this robe.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: I'm going to rest, and I'm going to rest. Well. Yeah, it was. It was delightful.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Oh, it's fantastic. All right. On the flip side, Jo, how about something that you maybe want to learn to love, maybe you don't yet, but you're like, I'm going to try burpees.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: I want to love burpees. I want to love core exercises. I want. I want to.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: I don't know that's ever gonna happen, but I am trying. And I show up again and again, and I said, and I'm like, they call it a burpee. I call it a belly flop on a very hard surface.
And it's like, I keep doing this to myself. And we can call it what we want, we can call it a gift to ourselves and self care and all that kind of stuff, but honestly, it is brutal. It is just brutal. And I would love to get. I would like to be excellent at it. And every so often I'm like, you know, I'm going to practice, so I get good at burpees. And I'm like, no, because it's bruising, it hurts. It hurts my feelings, it hurts my body, it hurts my mind. Why?
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Yep. Okay. Well, every time you do post a Gym. A story about being in the gym. Whether it's just like your tennis shoes and the weights or whatever, I love that. It spurs me on. I'm like, joe's in the gym. I can get in the gym today.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: We can all suffer together.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Exactly right. I'm like, I don't want to do this either.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Yeah. None of us want to be here, but here we are.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Here we are together.
All right, last kind of quick fire question.
And I, because I do want to get into a leadership conversation with you. Who is a leader that you love to look up to or learn from?
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Oh, gosh, there's loads, actually, I have.
I'm going to go with two because I can't work out which one. One is my current boss. My current boss where I work at Bethel. Jess. Jess Daniels. I love the way she thinks. I love, I love her. She has a way of thinking into possibilities. And I, and, and she's creative in her thinking. And, and he's just always think and not in a driven way. She's just like really wonderfully and beautifully curious.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: So that's. I love that. I love that because I, because I can, I can get my off pick and be like, that's great. And that's going to be terrible or whatever. And so that's, that's one. And then I, the other person who, and who was really formative for me when I was younger, a woman called Carol who I met when I was 18. And she shaped and encouraged and, and mentored and invested in me in really profound ways. And I find myself still coming back to her wisdom. And I still. And I find myself coming back and just when I. We catch up every so often when I hear what she's doing now. Just like when you have the gift of a long life and the gift of a life where you can do different things, it's just wonderful to see.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I think you've written about her, haven't you, in some of your books.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: That's awesome. Well, thank you for sharing those. I will say you are one of my favorite voices in leadership and empowering women. And I think it is you. Besides, you're just super easy to talk to. I love that you are funny. Like, funny. Jesus. People are my favorite people in the whole entire world.
I just love it.
But now I know that you're. You're not only leading women, but you've kind of moved into other spaces through like the 25 and momentum. So tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah. It's, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. About a year or so ago, maybe a couple of years ago, I felt the Lord really nudge me and say, what are you doing for the next generation? Or what are you doing with the next generation? I'm like, I don't know. I just thought, why, why are you asking me the question?
[00:10:17] Speaker A: I'm like, you're supposed to tell me what to do.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Get back to me when you're ready. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm like, oh, come on now. And long set of circumstances. I ended up working at Bethel University, which is actually round the corner from my house and so has always been there, but.
And leading this initiative called the 25, which was an initiative to come alongside initially women, young women leaders as they were building towards careers. So having the conversations, some of the kind of ones that we'd have at aza, my other event, were about how to negotiate pay, character formation, leadership formation, soft skills alongside hard skills kind of thing, networking, all of those things and asking myself and asking the question, what would it be like to start your career like that rather than discover 20 years in and, and 20,000 scars later what you could build? So that's been wonderful to come to learn from them and to, and to see their optimism and passion and all that kind of stuff has been great. And then a lot then I think it was just before Christmas, one of the girl, one of the seniors, so she's about to graduate in the 25, called me and she said, my friend's on the phone and this guy said, we've heard what you've done there. Will you invest in us? And I thought, well, I don't know how to say no to that really. I mean, how do you say no to that?
[00:11:39] Speaker A: Right?
[00:11:40] Speaker B: And initially it was meant to be during their J term, so it'd been a four week thing. And I said, well, I work with leaders. And he said, we're all leading various things on, on the campus and we just need a little bit of investment.
And so.
Hold on, I'm about to sneeze. So hold on, I'm gonna stop.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: It's okay.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: I'm not emotional, I just need to see. I don't need to wipe my nose. Although they, they'd be like, so you're not, you're not emotional about us, fine.
And I thought It'd be like five or six of them and then 20 turn up and then 30 turn up. And they are young men and women, they are black, white, Asian, Latino, multi ethnic kids and leading either in the churches or leading in different spaces. And they like, we just need some investment on what's going on on the inside and outside and where the. And it was one of those ones again, both the 25 and also momentum, as they named it. I did not see coming. I did not see coming. I was not planning on doing, but had felt like, like you kind of come into this slipstream of grace and God's grace and power and mercy and seeing their lives change and, and I think we forget how much we've learned along the way and how helpful that would be for someone starting out. Yeah, you know, I think that's the, that's been the humbling thing of it for me.
And I remember sitting them down one time and saying, because it became apparent that we needed to expand it and develop it and go longer. And they're like, we're glad you've caught up to what we were actually thinking kind of thing. And I said to them, what's working? What's helping you? And they said, yeah, we're having a great time and everything. And then one of them said, she goes, you know, the thing is, it's not, she goes, we love leading amongst our peers and everything. We're still doing those things, but we don't often get to hear from an elderly. And I was like, when did I become an elder?
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Is this a compliment or an insult?
[00:13:37] Speaker B: And she kept on saying it. She's like, yeah, because we need an elder who was going to teach us and we need. Because you need the perspective and the accountability from an elder. And I'm just like, every elder was a punch, every elder was a slap in the face. And later it's like, seriously, big sister would have worked.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: That is exactly what I was thinking. Yes.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: But they're like, you ain't though. You ain't. Because some of you, some of them went to school with my kids. So they are not thinking that. So, so, so. And they just thought it was funny. And they're like, yeah, receive it. Did I mean accept it. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm like, wow. Well that, that escalated quickly. Age.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: That'S what you take to the gym. I'm going to do a burpee for every time I hear the word elder. That's what's going to spur you on.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: That's going to spur me on. May I be an elder with abs? Or at least just one. Just one.
I'll take one AB.
And so, yeah, I think. But it's been a, it's been a real privilege to come alongside them and to teach them, but also to step back and like draw out their gifts and slow down and not, and not kind of overload them with stuff, but say, okay, let's sow this seed. And so even the planning of it, I kind of have facilitated with them to say, okay, this is how we did this and this is why. So coaching them along the way, bringing out their talents and saying, this is what's already in you. I have not designed anything here. I've just asked you a question, written it down, given it a name. That's your stuff.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: And so gone back and forth, training them and, and yeah, it's, it's just wonderful. It's. And I, I feel like it's crucial to do. Yeah, it's crucial to do. And it was, it was fascinating the last time we had, as a collective, we had Gen Z there, millennials there, Gen X there, and boomers. And I just thought, wow, this is fascinating to watch. Women who've experienced leadership in so many different ways and in so many different levels and how important that was, how important to have moments like that where they could talk together and interact together and hear from each other and learn from each other was just again, I'm just like, God, thank you for helping me do that by accident because somebody thinks I thought of this.
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Because a lot of people don't have the opportunity.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Especially multi generational, to be able to communicate and ask questions and learn. You know, I think getting groups of women together, I love that the, this group is diverse in so many different ways.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: But yeah, thinking about Azer specifically, like being in the room with people who are maybe my mom's age, maybe my grandmother's age, maybe my little sister's age, maybe my niece's age.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: And being able to get that kind of wisdom too, is beautiful.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Beautiful. It was just such a privilege. It was. So I was like, oh my word, this is, there's what you hope to do when you do something and then there's what happens that takes a whole other world beyond you in terms of what they're learning and how they're speaking to each other and speaking into each other's lives and in ways which are profound and generative.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: I want to break in really quick to let you know about this Azer thing that we keep mentioning. Joe founded Azer Collective, which is a place for female leaders from all over the world to come together in a powerful two day leadership intensive I was able to attend one of these a few years back in Minnesota. And not only do I still go back to the things that I learned there, I'm also still in connection with many of the women that I met. If you're a woman in leadership, click on the link in the show notes to check it out. And if you're a male in leadership, this is something that you need to know about as well, because there is likely a woman in your office, business, church, or organization who would benefit from networking with and learning from other female leaders in a way that she likely can't do where she is. Let's get back to my conversation with Joe, and we'll unpack that idea a little bit more.
Well, I want to. I know that the people listening are kind of on both sides. We've got people listening who find themselves in leadership. Yeah, we've got people listening who want to find themselves in leadership but have not yet gotten there. Yeah. And I also think, Joe, we might have people listening whether or not they realize it, who are in leadership. That needs to be shared.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: But they may be. Don't know that yet. So I want to kind of talk through leadership, knowing we've got this broad audience of people.
But what are you seeing right now? Just to start, like, are women and men different kinds of leaders? Is there, like, a big difference there?
[00:18:20] Speaker B: You know, I go back and forth on this one.
[00:18:22] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: To be honest, I go back and forth on it because of. I mean, on one level, physical differences, clearly.
And certain things impacting your physical differences, like menopause. You know what I mean? Clearly.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: And. And health and all that kind of stuff, clearly. Like when a woman has a baby, like when a family has a child, we know that the men and the women are both profoundly changed and it shapes their lives, but it shapes a woman's body in a different. You know, I mean, you're not. You may be walking back to work with stitches, you know, so. Yes, but I. But I sometimes have found the conversations about whether men and women lead differently kind of reductive, particularly because of culture. So I. Because I'm a Nigerian Brit and I've lived in the states for 20 years, so I've been informed by all three, massively shaped by all three. And there are some things where people have said, you know, but aren't women meant to be, like, quiet and gentle? I'm like, which women are they?
[00:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: And. And I'm like, what is. Like, is our gender a personality type?
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Oh, that.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Do you know what I Mean, is our gender personality type? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. And, and is there any one type of woman expressed even in Scripture? Is there any one type of personality that God made as an image bearer?
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: And. And so that's one part of it, because when I see different cultures, I. I see different expressions of strength that another culture would be like, oh, that's kind of aggressive. And. But who would be the most conservative theological woman you'd ever seen? And so I'm like, okay, well, that. It doesn't. It doesn't track for me. Yeah.
Or when, you know, when you're working with. When I've worked with women who are working in the agricultural world or in rural spaces or farm or like farm people, like, their definition of strength is a whole next level, because harvest time, everybody, everybody, all hands on deck.
And so it makes me think, oh, what is nature? What is nurture? What is access? What is culture? What is context?
I do think there are some leadership differences, but I think collective cultures lead differently from more individually defined cultures.
And so is the collaborate. Is our women more collaborative?
I think that we do see strands of collaboration, but I wouldn't say we don't see them in men.
Yeah.
And also. And what has been. What have people been fed is how they are supposed to be as leaders.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: You know, what has been celebrated so has been emphasized in the way that women lead. And what has been celebrated and has been emphasized in the way that men lead. Who are the. Who gets to be the hero?
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: And does that get to come in a. In a human form, in a female form? Or does that get to come in a male form? And, and so I go back and forth, and it just gives me more questions and to say, yes, we. Yes, we are different. Yes. But I think these things before we get reductive and say men are like this and women are like that, I would check amongst different socioeconomic groups. I would check amongst different cultures and ethnicities. I would check on what their leadership development and training was to see what shaped them.
And also, and honestly, can we be frank, what opportunities people had?
[00:21:49] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Because it's not always there.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Because it's not always there. So. And, and what were you allowed to do? Yeah, you know, I see, like, it's funny, at the college, I see some guys who are training to be nurses, and I just thought it's so cool to see these guys are trained to be nurses and it not be seen as an effeminate profession. I mean, anybody who Knows. A nurse knows that. Do you know what I mean? You're like, seriously. I mean, knows what they're getting in the thick of. It's a. I mean, it's real. It's. It's hard, real work. But. But it's fascinating that there's. There's been a. There's a freedom that has brought some respect to every kind of industry in some profound ways.
So, yeah, I go back and forth on our differences. I'm like, yes, but I think we want to be curious about them before we land too heavily and too definitively.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: I love that. Well, it's so funny because even I'm, like, recognizing my own, you know, training the way I was raised, the definition of leadership, because even in my own brain, I was like, oh, I think I was thinking only, like, within the church. But I'm glad that I didn't say that, because your answer then is leading me to go, oh, but even if I am talking about specifically within the church, I can learn from these other cultures. I can learn from, you know, I can be encouraged if. If being a female leader in the church is hard. And it is. I can learn from, you know, the women, like you said, in the agricultural sphere, who are like, no, we're just here, like, unabashedly here. We're strong, we're leading, we're doing things. And, yeah, I think. I think that can be a reminder even that we're not defined by our culture. Even if our opportunities are limited or, you know, the people around us have their own definitions, the world's actually bigger.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Totally. And I think when we look at the. When I. When we look at the range of women in Scripture who are. Who God is moving through and doing things through, we see very. We don't see a personality type. Eunice and Lois, as the grandmother and mother of Timothy, is different from Lydia. It's different from Deborah. It's different from Hulda, who is different from Miriam, you know, and so I wonder whether we're looking for a version that feels acceptable and we're looking for a version that we were allowed to be and how limiting that could be.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so brilliant. And that was my turning point, was I had to first challenge that definition. And I had to challenge, like, oh, no, look at all these different women. We are allowed to be different. They were different. We were never taught that. At least I was not generally taught that in Sunday school growing up. I never learned about these women. That's why I'm so grateful for your books. But that was my turning point of going, oh, I don't have to stay in this box of what I think a good little Christian girl is supposed to be. I get to actually break out and redefine based on who God has created me to be, what gifts and skills, what he's calling me to, you know, and. And. And challenge that and that. Like, I mean, people talk about shattering ceilings, breaking molds, whatever, but that really was, for me, the turning point of now I get to figure out what leadership looks like, you know, without all the parameters on it.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So good. I love that.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Well, over the past couple years, I know we've got progress to make, and we'll talk about the future in a second, but over the past couple years, what progress have you seen for women or. Or within the other, you know, cultures that you're working with when it comes toward equity leadership? All of that.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: I think it's been exciting to see more things pop up.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: You know, like, more podcasts, more books, more voices, more initiatives. That's been really exciting. Years ago, me and a friend of mine, Jenny Catron, we were. We were talking at an airport, and we just happened. We recognized we were there at the same time, and I was just beginning to start aza, and I was kind of bouncing ideas off her, saying, what do you think? Could I try this? And she was. She's wonderful. So she was encouraging me, and she was starting something online. I'm encouraging her. And then she said, at one point, she said this thing, she said.
She said, hey, should we stay connected with each other just so that we, you know, don't step on each other's toes or, like, if we're working with the same people. And then we looked at each other, and then we both burst out laughing, like, rolled over laughing for ages, because we're like, that's going to take the rest of our lives because there is so little happening out there that. And there's so much to be done that we don't even need to be thinking about. We just thought it was really funny that we were, like, being real polite, and we're like, yeah, if only, if only, if only I get to step on your toes. If only. There was so much, you know, and I think. I think that's still the case.
But I'm also excited that there are people who are doing things who I've never heard of. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, there's another woman leading this thing, and she's got this angle and she's doing these things. And this is a co ed thing and she's pioneering that, oh my gosh, there's a book here or there's a new theologian who's brought this fresh take on stuff. And. Yeah, and that's really exciting. That's really exciting that people are like putting their head above the parapet and like saying, hey, I've got something to share. And I think because podcasts are available and books are, you know, people are self publishing or trying out new things and they think, oh, maybe I don't need to ask anybody's permission.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: And. And they're stepping into the breach in their context. And you're seeing it beautifully contextual and rich and rich in theology and rich in understanding and rich in perspective and rich in creativity.
And I think we need that range of things. We don't need to have like a franchise of the same thing everywhere. We need lots of different kinds of things popping up everywhere. So that has, that's been encouraging to see. That's been encouraging to see that. That it's getting easier to think of people to say, oh, you're looking for that thing, maybe you'll try that. But also there's still lots of room. There's lots of room to grow. There's lots of things that can are still yet to be.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's the idea that we all have our own spin on it. You know, I used to think like, oh, well, I'm not going to write about this because everybody's writing about this or people are talking about this. And it amazes me sometimes when I'll just kind of like spot, spout off something that I think is common knowledge, you know, be it in a sermon or on social media, and then somebody has heard it for the first time.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: And I'm like, yeah, I know you didn't hear this for the first time. Surely, surely. But like, for whatever reason, the way that I presented it, yeah, it got to them. And so that's the thing is it's a lie. It's a, it's of the enemy trying to silence us when we're like, oh, well, I don't need to do this because everybody else already is, or somebody already is. Yeah, they're not doing it the way you're gonna do it.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: It's. And it's so sad to think that we, we kind of put things there. I remember someone saying to me, I want to write on identity, but you just wrote about it. I said, so what does that.
I said, you absolutely should be writing this thing. Your story is unique. You bring some fresh things. And we need multiple voices saying multiple things all of the time. It's like, we've settled for, we've settled for an injustice. You know, we've settled for the injustice of one woman.
We've. We've settled for the injustice of one speaker, one type of speaker, one event, one resource, one way. And I'm, I'm like, no, no, this is called scarcity. This is a lack. And also, it doesn't mean that there aren't other anointed gifted voices. It means like, we, we've seen it as definitive rather than a sign that people are missing and assigned that opportunities have, like, opportunities to cultivate people's growth.
We haven't thought about those things. We're just like, oh, it should be like that then. And then we've either thought, I'm going to dig into that or I'm going to imitate that, or I'm just not that. So there's nothing for me rather than, okay, there's that, but now there should be some plenty more things.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Right. There's clearly a need. What can I do to, to meet this need and join in with everybody else who's doing?
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: Okay. So there has been progress, which is good, but we know there's also more progress to be had. How do you see this is just a super light question for you. So just don't, you know, how do you see the current conversation around like, you know, dismantling DEI programs and all of that? How do you see this trickling down to affect women and minorities in leadership specifically?
[00:30:32] Speaker B: I mean, I mean, easy breezy. I, I think there are a couple of things that, that have really hit home. One, like study one is the freight. The way that it has been become a byword. Same. The same that happened with Woke. The way that the. I mean, have we forgotten what these diversity, equity, inclusion, how those three words have become an offense should stagger us.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: Agree.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: It should stagger us. That's first thought, second thought, I hear people. I thought you do realize statistically, the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action and DEI have been white women. And so when I hear white women come back and say, oh, we're getting rid of this, I'm like, you don't even know what you're doing to yourself.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:17] Speaker B: Let alone to veterans, to the. I mean, it's like, oh my goodness, you have no idea. And the range of, the range of, of impact the DEI has had over the years. And I mean, I think it's a Travesty. It's a travesty. We know. I mean, we know it is. We know it's a travesty. And, and I think as believers this is huge because as believers, part of our theology is that every man and every woman is an image bearer, is made in the image of God. And what people, what we are so quick to ignore is the amount of dehumanization that is happening around dei.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Around the, the trying to get rid of dei.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because that is the thing. Right. And if we were to go to scripture, if we were to take these three letters apart, like you said, go back to the actual words. There is all kinds of scripture about being diverse and diverse people and being equitable and justice and including people. And so it does. It blows my mind that believers especially are like, oh, we're not going to talk about this. We actually name. And our previous series kind of threw this in and he was like, hey, D E I actually is not a program that can be canceled. But all it is is a way of living people that call themselves believers. These should be things that we do in our everyday lives as we learn to live more like Jesus. We need to honor the Imago day of diverse people. We need to include people. We need to create equitable. Like this should be a no brainer.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: Well, and I think sometimes we fall into the wrong assumptions because we hear these conversations where people are like, yeah, we want people to be qualified and everything and, or like. Or let's say, let's limit it to the Christian space. Well, we don't want just, we don't just want a quote of women speakers or a quote of diverse. And I'm like, but that's, there's an assumption there that those people aren't going to be qualified.
Whereas the reality is this. The reality is this. If, if everybody is made in the image of God, if every. And. And God has. God gave people gifts and God has chosen to do that across. Throughout history, across cultures, then of course there are going to be gifted women. Of course they're going to be gifted people of color. The issue is why haven't we found them yet, not whether they exist.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: And so, so rather than us being, oh, well, we don't want to just have anybody up there. Why, why would that be the first assumption that you're just going to have anybody up there? Rather than. How can I get curious about the, about how I build relationships and networks and opportunities and cultivate and develop potential?
[00:34:07] Speaker A: That's so good.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: But as if, if we believe in the image bearing thing, then, then we. I feel like when we are trying to diverse it, we're just catching up to what God's already done. We're finding the people God's already made. The gift that God's already placed in people, the anointing that's already been there. We're just cultivating things that God's already been in the business of making happen, you know?
[00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. He's like, come on, welcome to it. I'm glad you finally got to go.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: I made this person for this and I'm glad you found them. Yeah. But if you're looking in the same space, you'll get what you've always got.
[00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think it's fear of scarcity mentality and just like in a different way where people are like, oh, well, we're gonna, the white men or whatever, we're gonna be.
We're gonna be replaced by other people.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: I think sometimes we treat opportunities like a pie.
Do you know what I mean? It's like, yep, it's like a pie and there's only so many slices.
And if. And I worked hard to get my pie and I'm hungry for this pie, and now you're asking me to give some pie to somebody else and that means I have less. Yeah, I. I think we treat these. And on one level, I get it, because a publisher can. Can. A publisher does not have an endless supply of finances to give, to write every book, get, sign every book.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: I mean, an event has a limited lineup, so there are created scarcities and spaces. I get that. However, for as long as we define opportunity by our versions of scarcity, rather than what God is feeding into people, sewing into people, and what can be multiplied and reproduced and that it doesn't always have to be us anyway, then we're always going to miss out. And so I do. I think some of it is about power and fear.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
What can people do to practically kind of reach behind them, regardless of what, you know, quote unquote, programming happens with DEI and businesses and whatever. If people that are listening are like, all for it, and I want to be doing what God's doing, and I want to catch up to what God's doing and see the value that he's, you know, put in all of these people, what can they do if they've got power, leadership, whatever, to make sure that's happening?
[00:36:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I think I would keep on asking ourselves, who are, I think, for us as leaders, and particularly those of us who have power. I think we have to ask how we're leveraging that power.
I think we have to remind ourselves as believers that if Jesus is the model of leadership that we aspire to have, he did not hoard power. He. He divested of power. He shared power. He equipped people, he delegated things, even though they made mistakes, he trained them up. So I would ask us, what are we doing to do the same?
What when we look at, in the early church, we see again and again, and when issues came up, they would, they would allocate people for things and making sure things were happening equitably, like with the Greek and Hebraic widows and stuff, and making sure things were done well. So I think I want to, I want to ask us as leaders, say, do you have a plan for training up people?
Who are you and who are they and do they, and how do you build those things? Do you like almost to do an audit of it and, and not an audit to accuse you, this isn't an audit to. But to say, where are the gaps in our leadership? Where are the gaps? When I look at my community, when I look at what God's laying on my heart, who's not here?
If everybody's like me, who do I need to find? Who's not like me?
And what can I do about that? And it might be harder work. The hard thing with some of this stuff is it's harder work. It's harder work to go across to other cultures and gender and all that. It's harder. And it requires more of you, more creative ways of doing things, more innovative ways. You might have to change some of your pipelines. It will not change your quality necessarily, but it might change your pipelines and your ways of doing things.
But what are you missing by not doing that?
[00:38:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: So, and, and, and I, so I think those are some of the things that we have to consider and we have to have to kind of reflect on a bit to say, and, and, and as you audit, to say, okay, God, what are you saying? What am I doing? What are the mindsets that I have that are like, that, that are accidentally becoming an inhibiting factor? Yeah, like, like, for example, like. And it can be the subtlest of things.
Subtlest of things. I remember being in a leadership context where they wouldn't like, they, they really celebrated leaders who, who asked for things and were really kind of like, voiced up their opinions and everything and were proactive and said, I want to meet with you, I want to do this, I want to do that. And I want to be the guy who does this, et cetera, et cetera. And that's great, except that the women never did that, and they thought it was because the women were shy. And it's like. No, it's just like, if I ask for a meeting on my own with you, are you going to take it?
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: Number one, yeah. If I. If I come and say I want to travel, to go on a trip with you, am I allowed to go? No. Why? Well, we know why you're not going. So what are we doing instead? So actually, I don't know how I get to do this in your world.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: Because you've assumed that I don't. But actually, the, The. The mechanisms that are established for how this happens, I can't do. I don't have access to.
And so there are some. There is. So there are things like that, that, that. I'm not even saying you're terrible for having it that way. I'm just saying we're going to need to realize that we might. There may be patterns of. Of our leadership development that aren't as accessible as we think they are.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: That we haven't thought of the power, distance, and stuff like that.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: It's humility. It just is. It's humility. You're talking about taking this audit of how do things work and what do we believe and why are they the way things are?
I think that's what's missing in a lot of leaders, is it's. It is that humility to go, hey, I am going to admit that things can be better or things could be different, or maybe I've contributed to this thing even unwillingly, without knowing it. But there's that, you know, we. I think it seems to me that sometimes the, the higher up we get in leadership, like, the more we have to fight our own pride of going, hey, no, now I've arrived. Now I know the answers. Now I've got, you know, the dream is achieved. And so we struggle to let God continue to mold us to look like the leader that Jesus, you know, showed us how to be.
And that takes courage to do it.
[00:40:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. And it takes time. And I think we get defensive because we're like, well, I've got to this point, so I must be doing something right. And we're like, no, that's not. This is not a comment on whether you're doing something right or not.
[00:40:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: This is what the opportunities for more. This is you auditing. Because we're lifelong learners.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: And we are. And we are Human beings rather than perfect. So therefore, of course we miss things. Of course we don't know everything. Of course we're going to need to be curious and talk with people and say how this is what I think I'm doing. How does that really work for you?
Because I think I'm helping you and I'm. And I didn't realize I was actually inhibiting you.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: Help me, help me understand and help me understand what, what works and what isn't working. And maybe I won't even understand it or agree with it first, but at least I. At least gather the data. We just need to get. At least start by gathering the data and some things might, we can shift straight away. And some things. You might need to pray and fast for about three years because it's like, oh, dang, this is. This one ain't going to shift without some prayer and fasting. This is, this is a. I'm going to have to go on a long journey on this in this particular group or a long area in this particular way. This. I need to be. I need to do some research, I need to do some reading, I need to do some prayer. I need to go and ask people. I need to watch how other people do it.
But that sometimes that's, that is the work. Sometimes that is the work for us as leaders.
[00:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and to realize too, I think the first step is going, hey, if God is showing you this, then it's worth it. It's worth the time, it's worth the effort. It's worth the people that will not understand you. It's worth all of the things you're going to butt up against.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: For the person, Joe, that's listening, that feels like they're the one that's hitting the dead ends or they're the one that is like in a system that's not set up for them. You know, maybe it's the woman who's like, I can't go on the trip because there's no, no way for me to do that. How would you encourage them to keep trying or to keep going after it?
[00:42:39] Speaker B: Who. Again, I think my views have changed. I go back and forth on this because. Because I go because this is a real common question where someone will say, I'm at this church, I've been here for a while, I've talked to the leader about it, blah, blah, and it's still not getting anywhere.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: And I have to ask if there's a point, how long you stay if I do, and because otherwise, because I've seen people feel like their job is to change that leader's mind.
And it sets up an interesting and difficult dynamic for that leader who's like, I thought I told you what I thought. And, and this is where I land. This is where I land. And you come away from a good conversation thinking you shifted it, and it's just a conversation. And then you feel betrayed because they didn't change. And like, they weren't gonna.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: They, they weren't gonna change.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: And if that's the case, then you have to ask yourself, can you thrive in this space? Is there another space where you thrive? Or do you need to go to another space where you thrive?
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:39] Speaker B: Because otherwise your calling becomes trying to convince somebody.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:44] Speaker B: And arguing with someone, and then you're wrestling with the bitterness, the burnout, the frustration. And it's like that, that's not your call. Your call is to do whatever this thing that God laid on your heart. And if the door is closed, find another door. It's just a door, you know, I think, I think so. There is that for some of us, that, that might be something I would, I would basically offer for you to consider. Is that where you're at? But others, it is a live space, and it's a live conversation. And, and I have found that I found in those spaces. Then you, you just keep on, keep the conversation open. And sometimes I've had to say, I've, I've been in conversation where I said, it looks like this, it feels like this. This is what I, I have to, But I have to feel safe enough to be able to be candid. And I think that can be hard because you're like, are you telling your boss to fail it? You know, I mean, and all of that kind of stuff. So I, I, I don't always tell people to be like, go out and say everything because it's like, this is your job. You've got bills to pay. What. You have to think this through.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: And think through what's wise and what's timing and all of those practical things. But it, but I, but I would keep on reminding you, if you believe before God you are called to do certain things, then, then what does it look like to be accountable for that call?
[00:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And discerning. I love that you said, even, you know, let's not waste our time and energy taking on something that is not actually the call. Like, like if the door is open, if it's not going to work. Yeah. You're, you're, I would Hate to get to the end of my life and go, I never did the things that, yeah, God called me to do because I got too distracted and too busy trying to convince other people of what that call was.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, so much so. How energy draining. I was talking to, you know, Steph, who, who I do podcast with. We were talking at a table yesterday and she says, I don't have conversations about this anymore. Said, because I'm not. She leads the church.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: So I don't have those conversations. She said, they're not. It's not going to be productive. It's not helpful. I'm leading the. It is. This is happening. This is happening.
And, and so I think now. But that's because, I mean, she planted the church. She was part of a team and, and everything. And. And then it ultimately became the lead pastor of it. There was a whole journey for her in that. I, I would ask us to consider where are you at in your leadership stage? But let's. But if you are starting out and you're like, I want to. Do you want to be in an environment that helps you thrive as a leader? That is crucial, that is mission critical to your leadership you like. And let's be real practical. I'm not saying that you should feel arrogant about it. If someone wants to be a doctor, they have to go to med school.
They've got to be in the environment where they're learning, where they're being trained, where someone's catching out the mistakes before they start killing people, all of these things. And you do it for a long period of time. And we don't think that's arrogant. We think that's common sense.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: That's called getting qualifications. And so in the same way, if you feel called to particular places you need. Your environment is mission critical.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it just is. That's great. I could talk to you about this for forever.
But I will give you. I'll bring out the, the one last question here, Joe, which is because the podcast is called Becoming Church, what can the people listening do to become the church to the people around them?
[00:47:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I love, I love the title of the podcast because I, and I was sitting thinking of this, and I thought, you know, the church is at the assembly, the gathering of people. The church is a people. And so I think I would ask, I would encourage you to ask yourself, what does it look like to be the words, the way and the work of Jesus in the life I have.
What does it look like to be those things?
And if we're not sure. Again, reflect on, pick a gospel, any gospel. Reflect on it, look and see how. What it looked like and say, okay, what does it look like for me to live the Sermon on the Mount amongst my community? What does it look like? Like, we see the. We see the kind of people Jesus hung with that other people thought were terrible, but somehow he had a way of doing this. What's my way? Who have I. Who have I kept on the outside because of their lifestyle? And would Jesus have done that or would he have befriended and the works? Like, can I tell someone what Jesus has done in my life? Have I got a story to tell and do I know what it is? Because sometimes we forget because we're busy living it. And what does it look like to be the hands and the feet and the mind and the heart of Jesus in my context, at work, in my community, as a neighbor, and to take the time to consider that and not as a kind of so be busy everywhere, but to reflect on those things and say, you know, to pray about the context again, another audit to pray about the context you're in and see how we see how we can show up there.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I love you said, take a gospel, put yourself next to Jesus, see if you're doing it. I mean, that is a lifelong. I could take the rest of my life, as it should, to ask myself that question continually. Do I look like him? Do I sound like him?
[00:48:56] Speaker B: I find myself coming back to reading the gospels every year. Like, I like to read other things. And then I'm like, you know what? I've. And I look and I'm like, whoopsie. Yeah, yikes. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I was so busy being about you, I wasn't being like you, you know what I mean?
And I just thought, that's awkward, you know, I mean, I like, oh, Jesus, how would you. Oh, like, oh, you spoke truth to power. Great. Okay, thanks.
[00:49:19] Speaker A: Good to know what I mean.
[00:49:20] Speaker B: Okay, great for me.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: Okay, what does that mean?
[00:49:22] Speaker B: And just, oh, but also you lay down your life for them. Okay, Awkward. Do you know what I mean?
And I'm just like, ah. And you allow him to read your life again. And like, ah, this is hard. Okay.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And to not take it so literally, but also to be open, be like, God, tell me, what does this mean for me? What? How does this mean my life?
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
I'm like, I'm owning these words, God. So before I go and do something really weird, would you show. Show me the next step? Show me the next step because I'm being convicted and now the overachiever within me wants to do everything all at once, which will set fire to the neighborhood in unhelpful ways, calm me down and lead me forward kind of thing.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Yes. Well, thank you for being here. I always love chatting with you. It's so fun just to catch up and hear what you're doing. And so we'll link up all your books and azer and everything in the show notes.
[00:50:14] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:50:15] Speaker A: Learn more from you.
[00:50:16] Speaker B: It's so wonderful. Your podcast is fabulous. I'm so excited. Thank you.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
What a beautiful call to action for us to pick a gospel and humbly ask ourselves how much we look like Jesus as we go through it. I think we could put a lot of our worries, tasks and feelings of responsibility aside if we focused more on that question. I'm linking all of Jo's books in the show notes. If, like me, you weren't familiar with the women in scripture that she mentioned, I suggest that you actually start with More than Enchanting so you can get to know their stories and why they still matter today. I hope that you'll share this episode with someone that came to mind as you were listening. Thanks so much for being here. And until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around.
