Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Kat Armstrong. Kat is a Bible teacher in whatever capacity she can manage. She teaches it, she writes devotions, she speaks. But, you guys, when I found out how she came to love the Bible so much, I about fell out of my chair.
If you're watching on YouTube, you will see the exact moment the realization hits, because my eyes absolutely pop out of my face. There is so much compassion and goodness and purity in Kat's message. So I know that you're going to love this conversation and getting to know her.
Kat, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Kristen, I told you this earlier. I'm so excited to meet you in person finally. This is so fun. I've been doing it.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: I don't know if you remember. And I brought evidence the first time that I ever reached out to you and we connected. I don't know if you remember this.
I did an Instagram story because I had ordered this book, no more Holding Back, which you wrote to empower women. And it was amazing. And when I got it, there was this little surprise photo of white Jesus.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: I do remember now in the book.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: And so for people that can't see that are just listening, it's just like a little, like, school yearbook photo of a very white Jesus. And there's a phone number on the back, and it says, God loves you. And so I was like, hey, Kat. Like, thank you for this surprise. I don't know if you do this in all of your books.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: I don't. I don't even know where that came from at all. I remember dying laughing when you sent me that. Oh, my goodness.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: I know. And I decided just to keep it. I was like, this is going to be my bookmark for this book. And so he still lives. I mean, that was a couple of years ago, and he still lives there.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: I can't. I don't even know. I have no idea. We did not. The. I would like to just say the publisher did not include that, and neither did Kat Armstrong. This is not an approved message.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: No, I will show you when we're not recording. I will give you the phone number and the website is on the back in case you want to reach out and contact them yourself.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yes, I do.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: I know. So funny. Anyways, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here with. Maybe you'll have surprises for us like that. I don't know. Maybe you won't. I guess we'll find out.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about you, like what is your background with church and Christianity?
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Sure.
Well, my choir teacher and my cheerleading coach introduced me to Jesus when I was 16 years old.
And they introduced me to Jesus before someone could introduce me to alcohol or drugs, which in my family is very unique.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: So if you look at my family tree, there's all these broken branches on one side. And it's due to untreated mental illness coupled with intense substance abuse. And the trifecta was really suicidal ideation, self harm, suicide. There's just a lot of. There's a lot.
And so when Ann Crenshaw and Kathy Todoroff introduced me to Jesus, it changed my whole life.
And because of the gospel, I am an outlier in my family and not a statistic because these things were not just holding us back. They were really taking my family out.
And so I'm so grateful to know and follow Jesus.
I remember when my choir teacher came to me, she pulled me aside and she said, I know things at home are not okay. And I didn't have language to describe what it was like living in my home. But I did tell her, Kristen, that I had a return recurring nightmare that something was chasing me and that I was gonna die. It was hunting me. And I could, I was 16, okay, and I could feel something breathing down my neck. And I told her, I have this nightmare every single night and I wake up and I think it's a miracle I'm alive. And she said, I want to teach you a new way to live and where you are not running away from things, but you're running to Jesus. And so she described Jesus as a rescuer. It's the best thing I've ever heard still today.
And so I came to Faith in Jesus. And then my family was attending a church in Houston. So I went to the youth pastor, told him, I just become a Christian.
And I said, I'm not a lot of fun, but I do like to read.
So is there a class I can go to that's just class that isn't like skits and fun and all which, I mean, Kristen, we know that fun is so important to learning, but I didn't know that.
So he said, yeah, we've got a really Southern lady with very Southern hair at our church. That's what he said. And she teaches the Bible line by line and he would. Not kidding. Because she would. This Sunday school teacher would pass out notes front and back with fill in the blanks.
And so at 17, I started sneaking into Beth Moore's Sunday school class.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Wait, are you. Joe? Are you. I did not. Are you kidding me right now?
[00:05:28] Speaker A: Not kidding at all.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I just, like, started sweating.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: So it's seven. She had 600 adults in her Sunday school class. It was called Water's Edge at Houston's First Baptist Church. And I was 17, slipping into the back row.
And so what was normalized to me on day one of studying Scripture was a mighty one moment of God who cited all of her theological sources, who created fill in the blanks, front and back sheet worksheets for us every single week.
And when she would talk about the Bible, Kristen, it was contagious. You cannot be in her orbit without wanting to know the Jesus that she is reading about.
So that led to me having a lot of conversation.
Let me retract that. That led to having several conversations with my Sunday school teacher about my future. And Beth was the one to say, I think you should go to seminary. And I didn't know what that was. I thought it was a city.
So I was like. I'm like, all right, do I.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Do I drive?
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I did. I was like, if you tell me to go, I'll go. Where is the city? You know, I was going to go to College Station to go to A and M for university, but if you're telling me to move somewhere, I might just do it.
And she was like, God bless your heart. No, sweetheart, seminary is Bible school. And I told her, this is a genius idea. And she said, yeah, it's been around for a long time.
But I said, okay, I'm gonna go to seminary as soon as I'm done. And so that catches you up to that? I think that's why I'm a Bible teacher now. I think it's why I'm back in seminary for the second time. I mean, so though it was women, it was mighty women of God who led me to faith and then raised me up in the scriptures.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah, Cat, I could. I'm, like, tearing up. I'm like, why am I crying? I don't. This is not my story, but that is so.
It is definitely the Beth Moore of it all. Like, I just have no words. I would. She is. She is. Every time somebody's like, who's your dream guest on the show? I'm like, Beth Moore.
I would love to just, you know, tap into her wisdom and all of the things I mean, I have from afar.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: That is incredible. Your. I mean, the story of your life, whether it be at Beth or somebody else, like, that's just incredible, Kat, that you were rescued from something so different, you know, and. And look at where you are now.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: All I can say is this man Jesus is so incredible. And I say it on every podcast and everything I do, but the longer I know Jesus, the more I love him. Yeah. And he is. Means more to me now, 30 years of following him than he did even at the beginning. And at the beginning, it was such a radical, just joy. It was like I'm being rescued from something that it felt. And I would ha. I would later learn, Kristen, that I was probably.
I was accurate the way I felt in those nightmares, that I was being hunted. I actually do think I was being hunted by the enemy. And some of these things that had taken people out in my family, and I wouldn't have language for that until much later.
But I think it does speak to the resurrection power of Jesus to combat cycles, things in our past, family lineage, family drama, all of that. He can address it and he can work through it. Praise God.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Amen. So do you still have relationship with any of those family members that. That you, you know, you were in that family unit, like, at the time when you made this big transformation?
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Yes, I.
Several of my family members, if they already knew Christ, really recommitted their life to Christ and we got baptized together. And, you know, I wish it had a pretty bow on the ending. You know, 30 years later, my father's gone due to self harm, and just some wounds that he inflicted on himself did lead to his death and some estranged relationships with close family members due to some just really troubling behavior that comes when you're oppressed by some of these things.
But what I will say is that they could tell that this conversion was real and that things were different.
And my mom lives with us now, and we both can testify that we know things would be.
I don't even know how. I don't know that I would be here.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: If he. If Jesus hadn't intercepted my life.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Wow, that's so beautiful. I thank you for sharing all of that story with us. It gives people a little bit of a picture into what you do now and why you do what you do now. Will you. Will you explain that too?
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, at my heart, Kristen, I'm a Bible teacher. And so that has come out in different ways, you know, through a podcast or writing Bible Studies or writing books or teaching the fourth and fifth grade Sunday school class at my last church. You know, like, I just, I. Anyone who wants to learn about Jesus, I'm excited to join them in that journey.
I also do a lot of preaching and speaking, so it comes out that way.
I'm a pastor's wife. I'm a working mama. You know how it is. We've got multiple roles that we're juggling, but I think if you just distill it all down, probably Bible teachers, most core to who I am.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Okay, and so you said you went to seminary and you're in seminary again.
Are both of the degrees that you're. That you have and are pursuing, I assume that they're like Bible based, they're scriptural something.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Yes. So I have a master's from Dallas Seminary and graduated in 2011. Took a long decade hiatus from school, and I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but I really, really, really, really wanted to study with Dr. Scott McKnight and Dr. Lynn Kohick.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Two incredible New Testament scholars.
So I'm doing a doctorate in ministry, which is just a demon and in New Testament. And so I, I, you know, I might graduate in May. I hope I graduated May. We'll just see. I gotta write a little, little thesis there.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: But I think what is really compelling, Kristen, is that we can be in the text every day.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: And there's something new.
[00:11:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: And what you learn in seminary is how little, you know, you, like, you don't graduate. And you know this in pastoral work, too. Like, you don't, you don't arrive and go, okay, well, I learned what I came to learn. You leave going, oh, no, there's so much more. I don't, I didn't know. I didn't know. And now I'm aware of how much, how little I know. Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: But it takes so much humility to even be able to say that and go, oh, there is so much more that I did not know. And until I really, like, started digging into scripture and the Holy Spirit, because I grew up with, like, God, Jesus and the Bible, I feel like, as the Trinity.
But once, and I love the Bible, but once I really, like, figured out what Holy Spirit was about and what Holy Spirit was doing in me, I found a lot more humility and a lot more. That was where my realization came in of like, girl, you don't know what you think you do. There's so much more to it, you know?
[00:12:52] Speaker A: You know, one of the ways that I'M trying to stay congruent with Jesus in my ministry life is to be in these classes where I know the least amount.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: And when I say know the least amount. So I don't even know the words they're saying.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: You know, like when I say I don't know what they're talking about, I'm like, I'm gonna have to Google five of the words that you put in that sentence. And you're referencing all these people. And this is after going Dallas Seminary for eight years just to get a two year degree, I still feel that way. There's something that we should treasure about feeling like the dumbest person in the room or has the least amount of knowledge, because then we're the most open to the Holy Spirit illuminating truth.
And you mentioned something really cool. So Dan Wallace wrote a book called who's Afraid of the Holy Spirit? And in the book, as a Dallas Seminary person, he said, I used to know God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Bible.
I didn't know the Holy Spirit.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:51] Speaker A: So it's a great reference. If your listeners are like, I can totally relate to Kristin. Such a good book.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: I'm going to add that to my own TBR list.
Kat, before we keep going, for anybody that's listening and they're like, I want to do this. I want to learn more about the Bible, but I cannot right now go to seminary. I do not have a direct line to Sister Beth Moore. Like, what is your. What is your favorite practical tip that you would give people? Like, hey, right now you can do this to start learning scripture better.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: Well, I'm the Bible Project's number one fan.
I know, right? I mean, just.
And they, they produce so much content. The pace has picked up so significantly. If you've been following them for a decade or however long they've been around, you know, we might get a video every couple weeks or months and now there's something new almost every day.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: But there's a great series they do on how to read the Bible, and I think it's eight parts. I could be wrong, so you'll have to fact check me. But I. That's a really practical way. Start there just to make sure you have the right mindset as you go into the Scriptures.
And then my buddy John Dyer has a website that I'll give you the link for, but you can create your own reading plans.
Oh, of the Bible. He's a total tech nerd, but Bible nerd as well. And a professor at Dallas Seminary. But he has where you can go and say, I'm going to read the Bible three days a week. I want to read only the Old Testament. I want to start on September 17th, and I want to finish on December. Here's the version I want to read. And then it'll ask you kind of like calendar view and Google. Do you want a bulleted list? Do you want a link to read? Do you want a digital verb? You want to print it out? Do you want a calendar view? Oh, my gosh, it's so dreamy.
But I would just say if you don't find a Bible reading plan that you can jump into that's really popular, you may need to personalize something that'll pace you a little bit better. And I would recommend create a Bible reading plan that's more personalized and use John Dyer's link.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Something that's actually realistic for you.
Speaking of the Bible project, you had Dr. Tim Mekke on your podcast Holy Curiosity, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm trying to get them on this show also. So I was like, I need you to give me your tips.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Oh, man.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Got on calendar.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: I like. I mean, I couldn't believe that he said yes.
Could not believe it. So I texted everyone I knew in my phone just saying, I'm dead. I'm dying. I'm so happy. I've literally died of happiness today. And I even put something on my Instagram that's like George Costanza back in the day. Just saying, I'm ending on a high note. This is it. You know, I need to retire from doing any podcast.
Yes. So I've got two seasons of the Holy Curiosity podcast, and the goal there is to highlight the genius storytelling of God. I think for many people, we come to the scriptures as a manual for living. We come to it for the beautiful poetry. We come to it for inspiration.
We come to it to get to know our Savior. These are all valid, excellent ways to pursue knowing Jesus.
Additionally, I. I want people to remember that the Bible's literature, it's just an incredible compilation library of all these inspired books. And in God's providence, he has made a cohesive story, as Tim and John would say on their show, that leads to Jesus.
And so I like to highlight the people, places, or things in scripture and help people trace them from Genesis to Revelation.
And so on the show, we'll pick a place or we'll pick a character type or a role that gets filled in Scripture, and I'll just follow it all the way through and Tim helped us go through a place that shows up over and over in scripture, which is Sicar or Shechem. It's Shechem in the Old Testament, Sicar in the New, but it's the same place in Samaria.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: He just, well, and only a way he could do just brilliantly walked us through every time that place comes up in scripture.
And what we really highlighted on the show, Kristen, is how Dinah and her tragic experience in this city is redeemed through Jesus's presence in that city years years later with the woman at the well and how these two women's experiences are connected through that city.
And so anyway, Tim, Tim is brilliant. He did an awesome job.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: I love following those threads and I think that's something that people struggle with often. So I will link up your podcast in the show notes as well. But yeah, being able to figure out how are things connected, especially between the Old Testament and the New Testament can be really tricky for people. So thank you for, for just doing that for us, for doing that for us.
Before we talk about your new book, I want to ask you about one more of your previous books. Yes, you had. You also have a book called the In Between Place, which every time I see it or think about it, makes me think of the Good place. Did you watch that?
[00:19:06] Speaker A: I know, but I heard it was so good. I never got into it.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: It was so good. It was one of those like, almost like New Girl. I don't know if you watched that. It's like, it was good. And then there were a couple of seasons that you were like, what? But then by the last season, I like, loved it. It was, it was great. So worth the watch. But all that to say, I do feel like right now we are in a in between place. Like we are in between a lot of different things. How are you staying grounded so that you aren't pulled in any one of a thousand different directions?
[00:19:38] Speaker A: This is so hard, isn't it, Kristin? I mean, if your listeners look at me, just pull at my face and my eyes, which middle aged women cannot be doing that. We cannot be touching our face anymore.
Gotta preserve all the collagen that's left. That's right.
Listen, this is so tough.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: It is.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: I'm just not even gonna try to make it sound like, oh, this. Here are my five tips on it.
I am zealous to know what Jesus thinks about things. And the clearest way I get an any inkling of what that is is by reading about him.
I am almost exclusively people are going to Be upset. Almost exclusively reading gospels.
I need more.
I'm just in that season, you know, and you know, girl, that soon I'm going to be like the minor prophet.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Yes, you will. Mind blowing. Yeah.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: And I'll be there forever and won't be able to move on. But at this moment in time, if we let the radio shows and the Instagram Reels and TikTok influencers and podcasters shape what we know about Jesus, we're in a world of hurt.
And it is so tough to cut through that noise. Yeah, I have to intentionally pursue Jesus in the text, but everything else is pursuing me. Everyone's ads, everyone's algorithms, they are paying to get my attention.
They're fighting to get my attention.
And as restrictive as I am on my socials, on my phone consumption and what I watch and what I listen to, it reaches you because they're hunting you. It's.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: It's meant to, right?
[00:21:29] Speaker A: Yes. And so we have to, if we want to be formed into the likeness of Christ, we have to know what he is like and everything he said and everywhere he went and who he was talking to, why he did it and what happened next. And we have to be so familiar with that that we're more familiar than that than I. We are with Team Conrad or Team Jeremiah, you know, and I'll just be honest, that is difficult on this day.
You know, my entire Instagram search button is just pictures of Conrad. I guess as a middle aged woman, I'm supposed to like this. I don't know.
But I, you know what? I'm not getting ads for. I am not getting ads for Bible, Jesus, Scripture, truth.
Man, politics will just take over your feed if you just click on one thing. All of a sudden if you go to the gym and leave your phone on.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: I mean, they are really trying to get to us. And so I, I'm sorry that I'm not being more eloquent. You just gotta really stay close to Jesus.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: I think that's a really great answer. That's often one of my tips when people at Mosaic or reach out to me through Instagram or whatever, when they're like, where do I start?
I almost always tell them to start with the Gospels. I'm like, just.
And don't try to study them sometimes. Don't try to like just, just read them. Just go all the way through, get all those stories and then once you know the stories, then you can go back and start to study. But like, yeah, let's just get them in your brain first. Get Them in your heart get familiar with who Jesus is and who he was familiar with and who he was around. And that's got to be baseline.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Baseline.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: So thank you for that.
Well, your new book that you wrote with Lyle Wells is called Easy to Follow Trading Toxic Leadership for the Way of Jesus.
I'm always intrigued by co authors.
So how did you know Lyle? Did you know Lyle? And how did you guys decide to write this book together?
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Sure. Lyle and I work closely together, so I work for Integris Leadership part time and he is the president of the organization.
And Kristen, I gotta tell you about this man. So he is the real deal. And I've been connected to several visionary leaders in the past. And this guy is just in a class all of his own. To give you a concrete example, when I approached him and said, boss, I really want to go back to school again, this door has opened for me. My husband's on board. I feel like now's kind of now or never.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: And I'm concerned that you'll be, you know, upset that I have to miss a couple of things, but I'll be really committed. And this was his exact response. When you get smarter, you make our whole team better. Go get smarter. Oh, then he called my husband, got a hold of all of my syllabi for the next year for school and for Christmas, he gifted me all of my books for seminary.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Oh, that's amazing.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: This guy.
So Lyle is a. An elite coach, Executive coach to some of the highest capacity ministry leaders globally and has been for two decades. He's also a bivocational pastor.
He loves to be connected to people, to shepherd them. So he is not launching a theory into a book about the five reasons of blah, blah, blah, to make your life better. This guy is on the ground. He's baptizing children on Sunday. He's marrying people on Saturday. He's attending wakes on Thursday.
He is so committed to the local church movement and it informs all of his leadership. So as you can tell, I am just really excited about what Lyle is doing to advance the kingdom.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: That's so great.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: And he was doing a sermon series at his church on the leadership of Jesus. Okay, I never heard anything like this before. And as a Bible teacher, I was talking to him every week and going, boss, this was life changing for me. I'm listening to you every week. This series should be a book. We can we please write this book together and adapt what you have been sharing with your congregation. And of course, because he's the man he Is he was like, no, that.
No, he is not seeking platform. He is not about the accolades. But when I said publishing can be stewardship and it can steward a message that God's given you, do you feel like you're faithfully stewarding this in every possible way you can?
So now we have Easy to Follow comes out in just a couple weeks.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: That is so. That is so great. Now, is this book only for, like, is it for ministry leaders, or does it kind of apply to a broader audience?
[00:26:17] Speaker A: I think it applies to a really broad audience.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Excellent.
[00:26:20] Speaker A: So we had three audiences in mind. Obviously, the ministry or church leader, for sure.
But I would say the marketplace leader who's really committed to Jesus. You will find this incredibly practical.
So we go through eight key behaviors of Christ in his leadership.
And at the end of each chapter, you've got reflection questions, you've got discussion questions to lead your team or a book club. But then you also have my favorite questions to elicit feedback. Because a leader's fuel is feedback. And so, yes, we can internalize the message that we're learning about Christ. And yes, we can get our team involved and have a great conversation. But, Kristen, we also have to say, Kristen, tell me, when is the last time you really felt my compassion in the workplace and my compassion towards your ministry? Name that for me because I want to repeat it as your leader. Or, Kristen, give me a concrete example of the last time I wasn't compassionate, because I want to learn from that.
And I think that's missing in leadership culture right now.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's that humility piece again, right? It's again, the humility and the willingness to continue growing even if we're the boss or we're the leader or we're on top or whatever it is. Yeah. Because I can. I can read a book and internalize it all day long, and hopefully Holy Spirit will be like, pay attention to this line or do something here.
But yeah, who. When you let somebody else speak into their experience and compare it to what you think is happening and it doesn't align, like, that's where true change can hopefully does happen and take place.
Yes. I also loved that. That part that you guys built in.
Really beautiful. Really beautiful.
Okay, just a quick clarification because Kat mentioned that her book is coming out in a few weeks, because now, at the time of recording, that's actually true. But as you are listening, we get to fast forward in time because it's already here.
Her book is available now, and you can grab it from our Becoming Church resource list. Did you know that that even existed? There's a link in the show Notes where you can find over 100 different titles. If you've ever heard a book highlighted on this show, you can easily find it on that list.
And if you look at just the right time, sometimes I add books before an episode airs. So it can be a fun little Easter egg to know who's coming up next.
Make sure you take advantage of those resources. Now here's the rest of my conversation with Kat.
So the whole idea of, of easy to follow is you're advocating for trading a toxic results driven leadership for a Christ centered approach.
What do you think people get wrong about Jesus's model of leadership?
[00:29:19] Speaker A: Okay, so this is such a good question.
I thought about this and I prayed about my answer on this one.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: I'm not sure and I'm trying not to over like overstate it or overgeneralize. Okay, how. Okay, all my caveats, this is a soapbox for me. I'm not sure that I have considered Jesus a leader in the past. So just speak for me personally. And I wonder if there are a whole, whole lot of Christian leaders out there that do not think of Jesus as the model for leadership. I think of Jesus as savior, Messiah, God, teacher, teacher, prophet.
You know, I think of all those things, but when I think of leadership, I think of authors.
John Maxwell. Oh, sure, right. I think of experts in the leadership tradition.
And I am very convicted by this. I am really concerned that after all this time following Jesus, I haven't thought to myself what was, what kind of leader was Jesus? Well, we know he has the most effective movement of all times because 2,000 years later, you and I are still part of the movement that even through persecution and division and all the things that have happened to Christianity, all the things that we have done that could have, you know, made us go away, here we are. And so of course he was super effective. But because leadership is not a topic covered in the Scriptures explicitly. Yes, we have to go looking intentionally for what is implied. Implicit in the text is that he was the greatest leader that ever lived. There were other people claiming to be Messiah during Second Temple Judaism, during the time he was alive. There was, there were competing factor. There was factions within the Jewish faith that were, there were leaders within each of those segments. Segments for the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the high priests. And all these people were the Zealots, you, the Essenes. You had all of these competing factions of leadership who were disagreeing on what it should be like to lead their religion. And then you have Jesus who decides not to overthrow rock, Roman occupation, not to go to the largest stages, but to go to synagogues and small towns when he knows he's going to get kicked out and recruiting the most hated people like tax collectors, you know, touching people who would have made him unclean, doing all sorts of things that from a quote unquote leadership perspective, we are going to go after the highest influence, highest capacity people who are the most type A and have all the woo and we're going to catalyze a movement through a strong brand value proposition with 90 day goals and big rocks. And you know, this is, this is what we know works.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: And that is not what we see in Jesus.
[00:32:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: And if we argue that he is the greatest leader of all time, why is it that I am not?
My first thought isn't, I wonder how Jesus would lead through this moment when we know that that's what he was doing.
But I think of him as pastoring and shepherding through, prophesying through, being the Messiah through it is in the only example we have, Kristen, you know, this is that of leadership in the text is when it's Peter's mom, I think that goes to Jesus and wants her son. No. Who It's, I guess it's the sons of Zebedee's mom.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Isn't it? Yeah.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Yes. She is being a hover mother. She goes to Jesus, she's like, hey, so we're like invaluable members of this movement. You know, when glory times. I'm expecting my sons to have status.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: You're gonna level them up, right?
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm expecting that. We're doing this for you. What are you doing for us?
[00:33:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: And Jesus uses that moment to talk to the disciples in the. And maybe part of the crowd to say, yeah, let me just, let me level set some expectations.
We're not going to lead like the Gentiles do.
When they lead, they lord it over people.
We're going to lead by going to the cross.
We're going to deny ourselves. We're going to be suffering servants.
And it's such a paradigm shift.
But I think because he puts down leadership and it's only mentioned one time, it just makes me not think about leadership in relation to the Bible. So I feel like Lyle's just done a powerful job of bringing the concepts together and saying instead of knowing modern leadership principles and our next 90s and the rocket fuel and the Traction plan and all these things. Do we really know how Jesus led?
[00:34:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think you're alone in that. I don't think that I probably thought about Jesus as a leader either. So I don't think that's a. I don't think that's a rare point of view. Um, of the eight characteristics of. Of that you. That you guys wrote about, which one has stuck with you? Like, still, which one has stuck with you the most?
[00:34:35] Speaker A: I can't move on from his compassion.
Lyle calls it uncommon compassion.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: I wept through that chapter when he sent it to me and when I listened to him preach it.
Just the tender reminder that we have a savior that's so connected to our pain that he entered into it in flesh and blood. Didn't have to, probably, but chose to.
And just the nearness of him to us and to our circumstance, and then to watch him journey through his ministry and utilize these moments to preach and heal and teach. Yeah, it brings me to tears even now, thinking about the great compassion he had on everyone he encountered.
And even in his harsh rebuke to the religious leaders, there was some compassion because it was like, stop doing the wrong thing and join me in my righteousness when it could have just been full off. You're cut off. Yeah, I'm done with you. He wasn't ever done with people.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: Yeah. There's always invitation with his challenge.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: Oh, oh, yeah. And you're the preacher girl. You know what's up? She's just making these sticky statements like they're nothing. She. You know, that's her third point on the Sermon on Sunday. Y' all love it. Kristen. Yes, ma'.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Am.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: I've heard you preach. I know it.
Yeah, I just. I think that his compassion is so compelling. And I think, unfortunately, the tenor of our civil discourse and the level of disagreement we feel not just with our political opponents, but just with people we just cannot see eye to eye with.
Jesus is practicing a different way.
I think it's really toxic to ratchet all of that up.
And I'm not saying to downplay injustices.
I'm just saying that Jesus's leadership was such that people felt seen and loved in his presence.
And he wasn't shy. He didn't shy away from correcting us, but he did it with great compassion and a tenderness that I hope. I hope I can emulate. Yeah, I hope.
[00:36:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
I think all the time about how much better the world would be if we could just. I mean, just that part, the compassion, the empathy, the love, like if we could even just wrap our minds around that, if we could just bring that to other people, like, already we would be in a big. A better place. There'd still be work to do, but like, man, already we'd be in a just easier position where people would be willing to listen and trust then what we did have to say. You know, they would receive our truth because they trusted the heart behind the voice and the message.
Yeah, well, have you guys actually, I know the book is new, but have you seen this lived out? Like, have you had any examples of people's response maybe where they expected more conventional leadership methods and then were handed this model to use instead?
[00:37:38] Speaker A: Um, I don't know that I can answer that directly. What I can say is the early readers. We involved a ton of people in our early readership, and almost like a book club as it was being written, just chapter by chapter. How does this resonate? Is this practical?
What do you. Let's tear this apart. Let's really think through this.
And I think what we found is that much like Lyle and I were piecing together scripture with practicality, that our readers were doing the same. Our readers were like, you know what? We've got to bring this story in and we can't discount this story. And you know what? This is the opposite of what I feel. We val. We value as leaders or we put our emphasis on, you know, do we have.
Do we have concrete ways to measure how compassionate someone is?
No, it's much easier to say, how many phone calls did you make today? You know, how many baptisms have we done? How many people fill our pews? How much is giving up? You know, how are our marketing campaigns going?
And so there is less measuring in Christ's way of leadership, and there's more being and becoming. And we know these things. But then, Kristen, if you spend your whole day in environments and we're not just talking the marketplace, even in church work.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:58] Speaker A: And ministry work, if you spend your every day in measurable metrics and then you try to move into the practice behaviors of Jesus. What we have found with our early readers is they felt like this is hard to integrate. And so we did our best in the book to help integrate those four people.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: Okay.
I think it's going to be transformational. The days that we like, on Tuesdays, we're in back to back meetings are.
We call ourselves the navigators, but it's like our executive level team, for lack of a better terminology, you know, for business world. And in Tuesdays, we are in meetings I mean, top to bottom, like, that's it. And those are my most mentally exhausted days where I am accomplishing little to nothing. Because we're just. But we're talking and it's the data and it's the analyzing and I'm like, oh, I am not this brain, you know, I'm not wired up for this stuff and it all matters.
But I can imagine how. And we're a very close team, you know, we all get along and all of that. We've been together for a long time.
But I can imagine how in the business world even being like, hey, we're just restoring some humanity. Let's just bring some of your co workers humanity back in with feeling. And they're not robots and dump numbers and data. And I feel like it would be like a, a weight lifted, you know, even for people that don't call themselves believers. Like, you're going to feel different at the end of the day when you're not just a production machine.
[00:40:32] Speaker A: Yes. We're not just making widgets.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: Yes. There's a reason they brought us out of slavery from Egypt, you know.
Yeah. I mean, I, I would just say that this is really challenging work. If you want to be, if you have any influence or any credibility in any sphere of your life, I would call. Do you call you a leader? And if that's the case and you follow Jesus, we need Jesus to shape our leadership behaviors more so than any of the other leadership experts out there. And that is not to say that the leadership experts are wrong. I just, we need to evaluate are they congruent with a person of Jesus? And sometimes I know you're going to have listeners that are like, yeah, but at the end of the day, you know, I'm the cto, I'm over technology. And we've got to know if the, the analytics are working. We do, we do have to know that.
But I also think that Jesus might have a conversation about those numbers differently.
Not that he wouldn't care about the numbers, but that he might have a conversation around them differently that really dignifies everyone else in the room and creates cohesion. And so those more broader concepts, those are just harder to do. So good on anyone who picks up the book because I think that you will be encouraged at all the opportunities that the book affords you to really process these behaviors of Jesus and how you can integrate them into your leadership.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You're not asking them to change their task, really. It's a culture shift. How do we shift the culture around all of the things that you have been doing and still need to do.
[00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Well, Kat, right now we. We as whatever, the. The American church, American Christians seem quite divided on what Christian ethics maybe even are. If that's the right. Even terminology.
We're not sure what they are, who's right, which are right, who's emulating them. Well, what is your, like, personal litmus test on figuring out which Christian leaders are worth following and which maybe are teetering into toxic leadership?
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Girl, everything I need to know about a leader is how they treat women, period. End of story.
[00:42:46] Speaker B: Okay.
Done and dusted. I love it.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Really, it. I know that seems very trite and pithy. I'm serious. After all these years working at all these different places, how you treat women tells me everything I need to know about all of your leadership, period.
Because typically, how we treat women, dignify women, celebrate women, is very connected to all sorts of other things that can go sideways. Okay.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: It.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: And maybe this is. Maybe I'm in a silo. Maybe this is just anecdote from my personal experience. However, it is my experience that when you work with or work for or partner up with people in leadership that dignify and value women as image bearers of God and partners in ministry or leadership work, leadership will be healthier.
And that is not because it's the women that are making it. So it's not what I'm saying. It's actually the people who are setting the culture and being the leaders.
If they value women, they're setting a culture of value for other people.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: That's what I'm saying. And so I'm not making women the savior of leadership. And we have to have their voices. We could make some arguments for that.
I would just say that when a leader treats women well, they are worthy to lead.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
I want you to take that one step further because I am sure.
Let's not say I'm sure. Let's say hypothetically, Kat. Okay, let's just say hypothetically, there are leaders who are like, of course I value women. I have women that work for me. I'm nice to them.
Is that what you mean? Or, like, is there maybe one step further of. What are you looking for when you. When you say that.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I've said this before, that women go where they're invited and they stay where they're celebrated.
And so if you find that you're recruiting really high capacity women. I've seen this on some church staffs, not necessarily staff that my husband has been on. I'm talking about my friends who are in ministry. You know how you get. You get all these stories from all the other examples. I have an example in my mind of a church that just could not keep these super high capacity women.
And so on the onset, you would think they digni. Dignify and value women because they're recruiting some of the best of the best, but they wouldn't stay.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:23] Speaker A: And so it's not only about inviting women to partner in leadership, but it's also to celebrate when they are there. Yeah. And I would say that's probably the outer working of treating women well.
And you can't really know that unless you ask the women if they think they're being treated well. And then the. The secondary challenge really becomes that they may not be honest with you if they're not being treated well.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Because it could, you know, devalue their position. You put them in a difficult spot.
[00:46:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:00] Speaker A: I would just say maybe a litmus test for leaders. Are you able to recruit and then keep your best female talent? And if not, if you start to see where we got a lot of attrition or a lot of disgruntled people or they leave us all the time, that's when you can kind of lean in and say, are there any areas where in our organization where women don't feel valued?
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:24] Speaker A: But you can tell a lot about leaders based on how they treat women.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, that, that's a, that's a. The call is coming from inside the house problem. If you cannot keep them, you know.
[00:46:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: Red flags.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Yep. For sure.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: All right, Kat, last question for you. Because the podcast is called Becoming Church, I want to know, regardless of listeners, status or level, how can they become the church to the people around them?
[00:46:54] Speaker A: Well, I feel like a broken record, but if we can learn the ways of Jesus and then put them into practice and in small ways. But I would say start with the people that live with you. Roommates, housemates, your kids, your spouse, maybe your aging parents.
This is so challenging to do it with the people in closest proximity to you, the people that you let your guard down the most and you're the crankiest around.
But start there. Yeah. And bring these practices to wherever you live and start to tell people.
I'm noticing there's a lack of congruence is the way I put it. The lack of congruence between what I see Jesus doing and the way I'm behaving. And I really want those things to get closer together.
Have some patience with me.
Can you confirm this is true, which we already know they're gonna say, yeah, you've really missed the mark here.
But I think that's the way we can be. The church is start, start with the closest people to you and start to really practice the behaviors of Jesus and then it'll kind of flow out.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: I love that you added the conversation there too, because I often think of spiritual transformation as like, personal. I'm like, this is just between, between me and God. And so as long as I'm working on it and as long as Holy Spirit's helping me, then like, we got it. Great, we'll get there. But having that conversation, especially when we're talking about our closest people again, it's an invitation. It's an invitation to say, will you give me grace in this? Because I'm aware now that it's not been awesome and I'm trying to do better, but it's going to take some time and probably some bumps and some mistakes. And so I love that.
I love that. Well, Kat, thank you so much for being here.
We will link up your books and all of the things that we talked about in the show notes so people can find you and follow you and read your book.
[00:48:48] Speaker A: You're amazing. Kristen, thank you for your ministry and your leadership.
[00:48:57] Speaker B: It really is about Jesus. That's what this show is about and that's what we believe at Mosaic. As a church, we exist to reclaim his message and movement because we believe and we see that other things are being added and layered onto it that manipulate, devalue and change what Jesus words were really all about.
If you don't have a local church that's centered on the hope of Jesus for all people, we would love to have you join our livestream community. They watch together each Sunday morning at 9:30 Eastern. You can join us for worship and the message and there's even a chat room so you can connect with other people and receive prayer from our host team. Just go to mosaicclt Online church or click the link in the show notes until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
