Kelsey McGinnis: The Myth of Good Christian Parenting

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Kelsey McGinnis. Kelsey is a cultural historian who usually focuses on musicology and worship in the church, but after she became a parent, she took a deep dive into the world of Christian parenting advice to figure out why it wasn't sitting right with her and if there was an alternative available. While she's hesitant to give advice herself, this will be a conversation that will help all parents listening and maybe even bring healing to anyone who ever had Christian parents themselves. And yes, I will share with you my personal parenting experts who will give you advice and offer courses for you at the end of this episode. Here's my conversation with Kelsey. Hey, Kelsey. Welcome to Becoming Church. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:08] Speaker A: I'm glad to have you. I'm very excited you are here, and we're going to talk about your book. Is this your first book? [00:01:15] Speaker B: It is my first book. Okay. It is my first book. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Tell me how you're feeling because it's going to be out really soon, like this week, so let me know. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? [00:01:27] Speaker B: I have no idea. It's so surreal. When I got the first hard copy in the mail and was looking at it, it was just a very strange feeling. It's sort of one of those things. I don't know if you grew up wanting to write books. It was like a thing that I was like, that would be amazing if I ever got to do that. But we'll probably never get to do that. So it's been really, really. Yeah. Surreal is probably the word. It still hasn't quite sunk in, but the more I see people reading it out in the world, it becomes a little real. So that's fun. [00:01:56] Speaker A: That's so exciting. I am in a little bit behind you in the process of my first book. I turned in my manuscript in August, so now we are in the process of, like, now I'm just waiting. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:10] Speaker A: Editing. [00:02:11] Speaker B: So you're waiting for, like, the first round of developmental edits? Yes. Okay. So does that feel good to you? Do you feel like you can kind of just, like, put it out of your mind, or are you stressing about the developmental edits? [00:02:21] Speaker A: I both depends on the day. There are days where I'm like, oh, I haven't heard anything because they just love it, and it's so good. And there are days where I'm like, oh, I haven't heard anything because they're ripping it to shreds and I'm gonna have to start over. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yep. I know that feeling. Well. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Congratulations to you. I have a copy right here. I'm very excited, so thank you so much. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Love seeing it, and good luck to you. I hope you hear good things soon. And I actually really love going through that first round of development because it's so helpful to hear and kind of see how it lands with someone else. Because my brain, at some point, I'm just like, I can't look at this anymore. I have no new thoughts, and I don't know if my ideas are good anymore. I need some feedback. So I hope. Yeah, good luck, and I hope that that's a good process. Thank you. Yes. [00:03:08] Speaker A: That's where I landed. When I turned it in, I was like, what's a Jesus? [00:03:11] Speaker B: What's her right? [00:03:14] Speaker A: It's like, I've said these words so many times, they lost all meaning. [00:03:17] Speaker B: That's exactly right. Yes. Yes. [00:03:21] Speaker A: Well, before we jump into your first very exciting book, will you tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and kind of like, what is your history in and with, you know, the church or Christianity? [00:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I live in Iowa. I wear multiple hats. I teach at Grandview University. It's a small Lutheran college here in. In Iowa. I also write for Christianity Today. I am a music and culture writer. I have a PhD in musicology. So I do a lot of writing on cultural history, and I A lot about the musical life of the church and contemporary worship practices. So that's what most of my writing is oriented towards. So when you ask if this is my first book, I get a little bit of trepidation because it's kind of a strange first book for me, to be honest. There are reasons why it makes sense, but I think for people who have encountered my work elsewhere, it's. It's a little bit strange. So. But that's what my day to day is. Um, this book, the Myth of Good Christian Parenting, really, for me, was a process that started with my first. So my first is now seven. I am not a parent of older kids, and I should also say this is not a Christian parenting advice book, by the way. My kids are still super young. I have no parenting advice to give anyone. But when my first was about one, you know, parents will know that around the time your child is able to communicate with you and express their desires and their wants and their feelings about things, you can kind of have a couple different Responses one is like, oh, no, how do I respond to this? Like, and if you're someone who grew up in evangelical world as I did, you may have these scripts and beliefs, like, hiding in the back of your brain that you've never had to access before because you've never been a parent before. You know, I. Parenting was something I never thought about. I did not babysit kids a lot. I. Even parenthood as like a young woman was not something, something that I considered something I just, I can't wait to be a mom. So I just did not think about motherhood very much. So when my first was about a year, year and a half old, I found myself just reaching back at what, what do I. What do I believe about this? What do I believe about my child's nature? What do I believe about my duties to her? What do I believe about my spiritual calling as a parent? What do I. What do I think I'm actually supposed to be doing here? And when I started reaching back, I found myself. Some people g gave me books like Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp was one of the more commonly recommended ones. And I started reading it and found myself just totally lost. I felt like I don't like any of this. At the time, I was working as I was working on my PhD at a think tank called the center for Human Rights at the University of Iowa, and they had a grant to work on child labor and international child rights. And so I was very familiar with language around the autonomy and rights of children. And I just found these two ideas colliding and did not know what to do. So I just went down this rabbit hole of, okay, what, what spiritual parenting guidance is there out there for parents that is. Is useful? What am I pulling from and what is elsewhere? Because I had never ventured beyond the evangelical world and looking for parenting advice either. And so I did and found these, these different spheres of advice that were totally at odds with each other. And so this is in 2017. I feel like my husband that I, through a process of, you know, reading and discernment and prayer, were really able to come to a place that we were happy with, kind of rejecting some of the old school evangelical parenting advice. And then we just kind of left it for a while. I didn't think, I'm not the person to write about this. And then, you know, fast forward to a couple of years ago. I'm writing for Christianity Today and I see my co author, Marissa Burt, posting about this on Twitter. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:27] Speaker B: She is a novelist and a Theologian and a pastor's wife and an advocate for victims of abuse. And she posted something like, hey, who's. Who's going to write the book about this about bad Christian parenting advice? And I sent her a message and just said, hey, like, I kind of did a deep dive on this a couple of years ago. Here's some things that I found. Let me know if you want to talk more. And that's how the book started. [00:07:50] Speaker A: Stop it. You were just strangers on the Internet, and you were like, what if we write a book together? [00:07:57] Speaker B: Literally. Yes, that's exactly what happened. And I mean, to be fair, I would not have done that with anyone. We sort of had a couple of conversations, and it was like, the vibes are good. I really like your work. You've written. She's written six novels. I mean, she's a mother of six. She is wise, a bit ahead of me in the parenting process. And we both had very different skill sets that benefit this. [00:08:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:24] Speaker B: And because, I mean, as I said, I'm not a theologian. I'm a historian and a cultural historian at that. So I needed someone if I was going to write this book who could tackle those deep theological issues. So a lot of the history of the book I tackle and a lot of the theology in the book she tackles. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Okay. That is so fascinating to me that y' all are like, hey, let's put together a book proposal and just, like, see if anybody wants to do this. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. This is exactly what happened. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Have you guys met in real life yet? [00:08:57] Speaker B: We have, yes. I have a sister who lives in Portland, and Marissa lives in Washington state. So last year I went out there and visited them both. [00:09:05] Speaker A: That is so fun. I can just like. I don't know if you're a hugger, but I feel like I would just, like, immediately run up and, like, hug her. You're doing. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:13] Speaker A: Work together. [00:09:14] Speaker B: Yes. It was totally just like, I have talked with you so many times. We have, like, written most of this book together, and here we are sitting and having lunch finally. It was amazing. [00:09:22] Speaker A: That is so fun. [00:09:23] Speaker B: That is so fun. [00:09:24] Speaker A: And I've seen, too. I follow both of you on Instagram. I followed you for a while, but recently started following Marissa. And I love even just seeing you guys will, like, share the different aspects. I can see how you come to the text from, like, together, but from different places. And so it's been really cool to kind of see both of your perspectives and what you brought to it. So that's really neat. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That. That Worked really well for the book writing process. We were a little nervous because co. Writing a book is a. Is. Is kind of complicated in some ways, but I'm, like, pleasantly surprised with the whole process. It's been awesome. [00:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah, good. Well. And it flows really well. It's not like Kelsey here and then, okay, tag team Marissa. Here's the baton. Like, it just reads well, as a book should. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. I'm glad to hear that. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Yes. Well, before we dig into what the myth of good Christian parenting is, I want to talk to you about your dedication, because you dedicated your part. Your dedication was to your parents. And you say that now they are two of your best friends. And so I want to know, because I know for a lot of people listening, that's something that maybe they once wished for. I don't know if they still long for maybe somewhere, like, deep down, but it's not a reality. So has that always been easy for you? Like, have you always had a close relationship with your parents? Or are there things that you've done as an adult to kind of foster that? [00:10:50] Speaker B: That's such a good question. People ask often, like, how much of this book is you deconstructing your childhood? Or how much of it is you deconstructing things that happened to you as a child? And my answer is not much. Even though we were, as a family, were very steeped in this culture, my parents were on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ. I grew up as a staff kid for a lot of my childhood. And, you know, shepherding a child's heart was in our household. Dobson books were in our household. But, I mean, this is going to sound like a really unsatisfying answer, but I feel like it's. The best one I can give is that I got very, very lucky to have two parents who were mature and wise enough to be immersed in that world and to see the parts of it that were just like, we're going to leave that totally. You know, I think one. One point we want to make in this book is that not everyone who read these books became an abusive parent. Not everyone. Not every family that was touched by these resources is now estranged from each other. That is downstream of the. The kind of putting it all into practice. But there are a number of families who kind of look back at this and say, well, that was bad, but my family turned out just fine. And a lot of that I think you can chalk up to some people, through their wisdom, discernment, connection with their children are able to mitigate the negative impact of these resources. And I think in my family, for a number of reasons, I'm the oldest of four girls, I was a pretty compliant child to begin with. So I think there's some of that that you just have to control for. But my parents are wise, measured people. I did not have a dad who had a temper. Neither of my parents are yellers. They're just a lot of, like, temperament, things that went into the way our family worked. And as we've gotten older, my parents have stepped into the role of grandparents. As grandparents, they don't want to be parenting our children. For us, they are just like the ultimate come alongside, what do you need? And that has made it really easy to be in relationship with my parents. And also, you know, I think it was probably hard when I started writing this book, frankly. And they have read it, they have been supportive. They have been open to some. I think they probably. There are certainly parts of it that they would maybe push back on a little bit, but they hold back their pushback and are very cautious in kind of stepping in and trying to assert their own will in the lives of their children. Now I think they've walked that transition from, like, raising children to young adults into adults. I think they've done that really, really well. [00:13:37] Speaker A: That's beautiful. And honestly, I love that that's your honest answer. I think it. I think just saying, Kelsey, like, I just got lucky with good parents and temperaments, maybe even, like, releases some pressure from people listening. Because if you were to come in and go, no, like, this is what everyone should have, and this is the relay, and you just have to do these one, two things, and then, like, you, too can have it. Like, it's not always going to work out. No, I think that's just a really honest thing to say. It's just like, no, I just got lucky. Like, yeah, it just is. [00:14:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I think everyone wants to know the formula. I mean, that's why these books sell so well. That's why people want these family life books. And I think. Yeah, right. And. And I. I have no answer to give there. I think anyone who says that they do have it is. Is not being completely honest or they just don't understand the degree to which they got lucky. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. That can apply to so many things. Not just so many things. If someone is telling you they are certain, beware. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:14:39] Speaker A: Well, what is, like, in a nutshell, and we'll dig into it, but what is the myth of good Christian parenting? [00:14:46] Speaker B: So. So I'm going to ask You a question? What did you. Did you grow up having. Well, so Christian parenting books? What's your background with Christian parenting books? It'd be helpful to know. Sure. [00:14:57] Speaker A: So actually, when I was parenting my. I was given, like, baby wise, one of them, like, put them on a schedule. I think I read that book. It gave me. I'm not even a person. I don't think that, like, tends to have anxiety. It gave me anxiety. The first time I let my oldest daughter cry, I was like, I, this is terrible. I hated it. So I, like, completely ran away from all of that. I think James. James Dobson was a name that I was very familiar with. Not in my own parenting, but in my childhood. I grew up, I guess, evangelical. We grew up in the Methodist denomination, which is pretty, like, everything in moderation. But I think my parents and my household leaned more black and white. I'll say, like, we leaned more on the, like, yes. No, there's going to be a consequence. There's not a lot of grace, which is what it felt like. I'm not saying there was none, but you know what I mean? As a kid, you're just like, so. And also, I was the oldest daughter, so again, like, very compliant. Really tried not to get in trouble, but when I did, I was just like. It was like the end of the world, you know, in my mind. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that the baby wise thing. So baby wise is one of our most like, requested. Can you please talk about this book by Gary and Marie Ezzo that is such a great example of a Christian parenting book that perpetuates this myth that is there is a biblical. I'm putting biblical and scare quotes here. There is a biblical way to parent. And if you follow these steps, these, this framework that I, the author, am offering to you, you will be doing it biblically and your children will turn out a certain way. And if they don't, you can rest in the knowledge that you did it God's way. And that is such an enticing promise, because Christian parents want to be doing it the right way. They feel like there are eternal stakes to what they're doing. Often Christian parents, evangelical parents are sort of told that their children's salvation hangs in the balance here. And so the myth of good Christian parenting is there is a biblical way to do this. And I, the author, I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you how to do it. And so our book talks about a number of myths. I think different authors put a different spin on this myth. For many of them, the myth is sort of something along the lines of if you assert your parental authority, your children will learn to obey God as they obey you, and will become good followers of Christ. That is a really persistent myth, that one still shows up on social media and shows up throughout a number of books. But there are different spins on this, often oriented toward discipline for a number of reasons that we can talk about. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:02] Speaker B: But, yeah, that. That's kind of the myth in a nutshell. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, do you see? I see it kind of like two sides of the same coin where it's like, okay, if you do this thing, if you follow this, you know, set of expectations, whatever it is, you follow the system, then your kids, like, you can guarantee their salvation but also find success for yourself as a parent. So it's like both. Right. It's like you want your kids to be saved and follow God and be obedient and all the things, but also get your gold stars because you did the right thing. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Yes, yes, that's exactly right. I think we at one point say in the book, like, everyone has to be on their best behavior, parents and children. This is like behaviorism for both. Yes. Yeah, in a lot of ways. [00:18:48] Speaker A: And did you mean to say scare quotes instead of air quotes? [00:18:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Scare quotes and air quotes, I suppose. Scare. [00:18:56] Speaker A: I've never heard that term before. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Oh, scare quotes, yeah. Oh, yeah. I love that term. Yeah. No, it's great. Explain that. We talk about it. We use it in writing, in the journalism world sometimes where, like, you put quotes around a term to kind of, like, I don't know, in the same way that you kind of use air quotes, I suppose, but as a way of, like, drawing attention to. Yeah. Or a sarcastic use of a term or something like that. Maybe I misremember. I've always used scare quotes as, like, a way to describe that. [00:19:30] Speaker A: I love it, but I've never heard it. And when you said it, I was like, I think she just said scare quotes. Yeah. Actually makes so much more sense for most of the time when people use them. Yeah, yeah, I'm adopting that now. Thank you very much. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I use. I use scare quotes around biblical all the time because that in particular, that marketing term. Yes, Very persistent. [00:19:52] Speaker A: Yes. Well, and I think it's important for people to understand just because something's biblical doesn't make it great. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Like, we won't, but we could take a hard right turn and go on, like, a whole list of things that are in the Bible that are not great. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Right. Well, and you just recently are going to at some point have Zach Lambert on the podcast, right? And his better ways to read the Bible. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure he has all the wisdom in the world. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Record it all. Yeah, yeah. Well, Kelsey, you did a little game show on Instagram, which I loved because I did a little game show in one of my sermons a couple months back and it was the most fun thing ever. But I want to know yours was like, hey, I'm going to read a thing. And I want you to guess, like, is this from a real Christian parenting book or not? What is one of the wildest things that you discovered that you're like, I can't believe somebody put this in print and then called it like God's word. [00:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean there are exterior, like extreme examples and there are kind of more normie examples. The one I listed in that first video, I think was one where Chuck Swindoll, megachurch pastor in one of his books published in the 90s, goes on this diatribe about androgynous women's underwear. You can go find it on Instagram. It's very strange. But the point he's trying to make is in defense of gender, in defense of the gender binary. And it is really truly wild what people will sort of put in print as they try to make the case that the kids are not okay. Like James Dobson does this all the time. He goes on this rant in one of his books called Parenting isn't for Cowards about walking through London and seeing some like, punk scene folks like with dyed hair and piercings and describes them at length. And then, and then he, you know, wonders to himself, what on earth have we allowed to happen to our children? You know, stuff like that. There are some places in, I mentioned Shepherding a Child's Heart, really popular book. There are some places in there where he could calls children things like relationship junkies, or he'll look at like a four year old girl sitting in a way that her underwear is showing and sort of like attribute some kind of sexual promiscuity to that. And as you're reading these books, I realize that it doesn't seem entirely fair to these authors to just go through and pick things out of context, but sort of reveals a way of thinking about children that I think is really destructive, that you're offering as these like case studies and these argu, these, these little examples to support your argument. All of these things that wind up being really dehumanizing of children. And you hear this when you watch Sermons or talks by James Dobson, too. Things like joking about spanking, joking about hitting children. Right. Like, that child is asking for a spanking. He'll be so much happier after. It's sort of the. There's this desensitizing to the actual feelings of children that happens the more you do it. And I think the more you read that kind of thing, too. [00:23:04] Speaker A: Well, sure, because if you put dehumanizing language on a child and then that child grows up, like, at what point what's going to happen then that turns that perspective that you're no longer. Because then it's going to be, oh, they're in the terrible twos. Oh, they're middle schoolers. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Ew. [00:23:21] Speaker A: They're teenagers. Like, then when they graduate college, are you all of a sudden just supposed to go like, oh, now you're an adult. Like, now you're so good and great. And I look like, what. It just sets you up for dehumanizing them forever, right? [00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's like, that will never end because you as the parent will never be in the same life phase as your child. Right. So, like, so much of what's lost in translation between me and a toddler is I can't re. Access what it was like to be a toddler. I was a toddler, but I don't remember what it was like to be a toddler. And I can't put myself in her shoes easily again. But that will be the case for as long as I am her mom. Yeah. You know, like, I will never. I won't be a teenager at the same time, my kid is a teenager. So if I don't learn to take seriously their experience of the world as they are, while I am not also having that, I will never see my child as fully human because we will never be walking in the same thing at the same time. And I think that's something that gets really lost. There's not going to be a magic moment where all of a sudden, oh, my child's experience is so accessible to me. Yeah. [00:24:30] Speaker A: You know, that is such an important thing that you just said. We'll never be in the same life phase as our parents or as our kids. And that just, like, I think maybe that's what's missing for some of these parents whose children are now adults or are parents themselves, is, I'm just gonna say, a lack of. I think maturity in realizing that, like, that thing that just because you'll never be in the same life stage doesn't mean that you still get to usurp authority over them or your control or opinions matter more than theirs. And I don't know, you just kind of, like, rocked my mind with that concept. Yeah, that's really key. [00:25:12] Speaker B: Well, I mean, we've had a lot of empathy discourse recently. I don't know how online on Twitter you are, but, you know, there's this sort of weird move toward, like, is empathy good, actually? And yes, it is good, actually. Yes. Because as a parent, if you don't learn to practice it, you will just dehumanize your children throughout their childhood because their experience won't. Won't be yours. And if you don't go out of your way to try to take it seriously, it's very easy to dismiss it as, like, oh, that's. It's not. There's something about it that's not real, or there's something about it that's not as valid. We do this with toddlers all the time, and toddlers can be unreasonable, at least in terms of, like, sort of adult in the world standards. I think that's okay. Like, I'm not saying that, like, there aren't. But adults can also be incredibly unreasonable. So just because a little person is having a harder time kind of operating on your level of reasonability doesn't mean that the way they move through the world and the way they experience the world is not also valid and very real to them. Yeah. [00:26:15] Speaker A: Well, Kelsey, I want to dig a little bit deeper into discipline, which you kind of mentioned. I know. [00:26:20] Speaker B: I. [00:26:20] Speaker A: Right now, in the way I've curated my social media feed, I see a big, obvious swing toward gentle parenting for a lot of people. But I can also see how it's very polarizing. Like, there are people who are going, like, no. Corporal punishment for lack of a better term is, like, the best way to parent, especially as a Christian. And so they then see gentle parenting as, like, oh, well, you're just letting your kids do whatever they want. But those people then see the other side as, like, super controlling. What have you found in your research to be a more healthy model? [00:26:54] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Gentle parenting is such. Is such a polarizing term. And I understand why. And I also should say, like, there is no. There is no, like, clinical definition of gentle parenting. Like, truly, it is just a marketing and social media kind of. I. I don't know. Like, the. The term kind of means what you want it to mean, I think. [00:27:16] Speaker A: So I feel like it's like, what does your child need? [00:27:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's. And. And I think even, like, recently, even some of the people who I would associate with gentle parenting are kind of distancing themselves from the term just because of how squishy it is and how polarizing. Yeah. Like, you know, when I was first looking for kind of parenting podcasts, I found Janet Lansbury. She has a podcast called Unruffled. I would have called her a gentle parenting, but she is very specific. She's like, no, I do respectful parenting and authoritative parenting. You know, that's the term that, like, psychologists like, is authoritative parenting. Because there's. Have you heard of this? Sort of like, the quadrants of, like, you have authoritarian parenting, you have authoritative parenting, you have permissive parenting, and you have neglectful parenting. It's sort of like on a spectrum, I guess, is sort of. And so, like, those middle ones are kind of permissive and authoritative, and you want to be an authoritative, which is like, strong boundaries, but high connection and high expectations. Okay. There are so many ways of. That has. Like, that that has not changed. When you read stuff written by child psychologists, clinical psychologists, those things. Gentle parenting is sort of like the online version of that. And so much of how it lands with you just depends on the tone of the influencer you happen to find. Right. And people ask about this, and my answer usually is like, well, I think, like, how a lot of this lands with you partly depends on your temperament and the temperament of your children. Like, what works for you, what works for them, what lands with you. I happen to like Janet Lansbury. I know a lot of people don't and don't particularly like her. They find her tone to be a little bit cloying or unhelpful. I have found. Found it helpful, personally, I mean, totally just in my own. Yeah. You know, so I, like, I. I'm pretty hesitant to offer any advice just because after reading all of this and talking with all the people we talked with for this book, I'm more convinced than I ever have been that the decisions you make about how to parent have a million variables that factor in. And. And I. Generalizable parenting advice is impossible, but there is some stuff that you can probably find helpful. I just. I can't tell you what that is unless I know you and your children. And that sound. That sounds like a disempowering answer. Like, but I. I want it to be a freeing answer. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:54] Speaker B: For parents to just feel free to, like, if there's something in gentle parenting that you find helpful that doesn't lead to chaos in your home, but also gives you a sense of, like, calm and confidence in how you respond to your kids. Awesome. Yeah. Great. Are there people who model that online in ways that are like, so afraid to set a boundary that's probably counterproductive. Absolutely does. Is that, you know, can you chalk up a lot of it to user error also? Probably. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Do you have any? [00:30:27] Speaker A: It's not a one size fits all. I have only two children and I have to parent them both. Very different. Like, that's been. The other thing is talking to my husband and God love him, he lets me. I taught kindergarten for a long time. I have been with children since I was a child. Like, I was in the nursery as a 10 year old at church, like, with babies. And so I have my whole life, like, been with kids. My oldest going to middle school. She is now moving outside of my comfort zone. I'm like, I no longer have expertise on this level, so it feels a little scarier. Um, but he has. So he's really followed my lead just based off of like, expertise and knowledge and whatever. But yeah, we have two girls and we parent them the same, but also very different. And it's hard because as the oldest who only had a younger daughter, I can look back and I even remember growing up and being like, well, why does she get to do this? And I didn't get to do that. But it feels different to me somehow. And maybe it's just my personal bias, I don't know. Whereas growing up, it was like I had to be home by 10 and like every minute I was late was like a. A week I was punished. So if I was home at 10:01, that was one weekend in. If I was home at 10:02, that was two weekends in. Like, it was very. It felt very strict to me at the time. Whereas my sister would call at, you know, she's supposed to be home in like 30 minutes and she's like, oh, we decided to go to a movie. And then so she's like, I'll be having two hours. And it was like, not a thing. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:31:57] Speaker A: See what I'm saying? So in my mind I'm like, that was a very different thing than what I'm trying to do with my daughters is like, no, we're not giving you different rules, but we are letting you process things in a different way. Or we understand, you know, one of them needs to yell and scream. And so we bought her a unicorn punching bag because she's a very girly girl. And so she gets to like, just Go ham on that thing whenever she needs it. Now we had to instruct her to get to the place of communicating that need. You know, she needed to make that choice, whereas like my other daughter doesn't need that. So that's how we are trying to parent them differently is figuring out like, as people, what do they need and what can we give them. [00:32:40] Speaker B: And kind. [00:32:40] Speaker A: Of going like in that. Does that make any sense at all? [00:32:43] Speaker B: Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's so intuitive for a lot of parents when they look at their. If you have multiple kids, it's sort of intuitive, oh, this child needs a different thing from me. And that, that's okay. Yeah. But I think one thing that Christian parenting books tend to do is to tell parents not to trust their gut. Do not, do not trust your intuition. Your, your intuition is going to be, to be permissive, to let them walk all over you, to let your children run the home. You, you will left to your own devices, you will be a terrible permissive parent. Yeah. And I think for a lot of parents, especially really young parents, especially new believers, that kind of messaging allows then a lot of these teachers to kind of come in and say, here's the formula, like ignore what you want to do, do these things. And again, depending on the parent reading it, that might be like, okay, I'm going to ignore my desire to connect with my child in this tantrum and I'm going to do this instead, you know, And I think that can absolutely wash over that desire to connect with children in the way they need it. [00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I'll say too, it takes a lot of trial and error. This is not like, even with all my experience and study, it still wasn't like, oh, we've done this perfectly. We've done this really poorly. It's taken some years to figure out where we are just now in a rhythm where we're like, we think we've got them figured out and guess what they're going to do this year probably change on us and we're going to have to find the shift and figure out how to do it all over again. Just so it doesn't sound like I've like found the secret way. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Yes, yes, absolutely. Trial and error. But, and that, I think even that for a lot of parents feels just so scary. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to do Give me the, give me the formula. And I think a lot of Christian kind of self help and advice books prime parents for that anyway. Like a lot of evangelicals love to read books about self improvement, how to, you know, optimize your quiet time, optimize your sp. Life. Here, here is what the, the Christian walk can look like. It's so natural to then sort of go looking for that kind of answer when it comes to how to parent. [00:34:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:58] Speaker B: People do this for dating. Right. People do this for marriage. And there is a whole. There's. There's just a world of books that you can go to. And sometimes I think that's good. Sometimes I think it can be really destructive for relationships. Right. Because I think the number of, like, shortcuts we should be looking for around just sort of the difficult, connected work of relationship. I, I, you know, I don't know that that's great to be looking for those all the time. Yeah. [00:35:23] Speaker A: Turning relationships into, like, a formula, a model, right? [00:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Kelsey, as you've kind of gone through a lot of these parenting books, have you noticed, like, a lack of this one thing or, like, you know, typical Christian parenting seems to be missing, like, some characteristic or aspect of God. [00:35:44] Speaker B: Hmm. [00:35:44] Speaker A: Aspect of God or something else, you know? [00:35:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, God became a child, Right? Like God. God became a child. R.L. staller's book, the Kingdom of Children, has become one of my favorites. He writes about child liberation theology, and some point he makes over and over again is that childhood is not this lesser plane of being where children have less access to God. We just don't really understand the access that children have to God because we aren't children. So when we talk about the difference in experience between adults and children, I want to have more respect for the experience of children because I know that God meets them and that they can come to God. And if I believe that's true, I also probably then have to believe they have some access that I don't. That I can probably learn something from. That is, like, antithetical to a lot of Christian parenting advice, the idea that children have something to teach us in their childishness. No, childishness is a problem to be solved. Right. Like, they're, they're affronts to your authority as a problem to be solved. And I think that that is a big missing piece of a lot of this. And it's. It's not a very marketable piece of advice. It's just acknowledgement, which is probably why it's. It's not in there. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's scriptural. I mean, we see. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Like you said, Jesus was actually born as a baby, had to go through childhood all of that Jesus then also said, let the little children come to me and that we're to have a childlike faith. So, yeah, I think everything you said actually really makes sense. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I, I've been, I've become a lot more interested in this. So I mentioned, I write for Christianity Today, and one thing that I've written about a couple times over the past few years is the inclusion of children in the life of the church and corporate worship specifically, and the ways that, that the life of the church is so adult centered in ways that doesn't really account for the way that children might reach out to God or the way that they might interact with God in worship. And so in that way, some of these ideas about how to parent actually trickle out into church life where you see kids and their experience and their needs and their strengths pushed to the margins. [00:38:15] Speaker A: And I think again, that that can be something that we don't have to figure out, but we let our kids show us, you know, at our church. I think only recently, I would say maybe in the last, I don't know, year or so, we had a couple kids, starting with my oldest daughter who loves to worship. And now our worship leaders, kid, like toddlers, have started taking over the front row of worship. And it was never a thing of like, hey, we're gonna bring, we're gonna intentionally bring the youth up and like place them and let people see. It was not that my daughter never asked. She just like believed she was allowed to be there just the same as the grownups. And so now it's just sometimes her little friends will join her and so we just will have on any given Sunday. The front row is just full of little kids, big kids, middle sized kids, just like full on worshiping their heart out because that's just where they want to be. And there was no rule that said they had to be in a certain place or whatever. But it's been so beautiful. Yes, again, my daughter, but it's been so beautiful just to see these kids like freely showing up at church just the same as we want the adults to do. And I actually believe that there have been adults sitting rows behind them, watching them just unabashedly like worship the way that they want to worship. And it has brought freedom to other people behind them, like grown up people, you know. [00:39:37] Speaker B: Oh, I love, I love to hear that, that, that speaks to a freedom and a belonging that they feel in that, in that place that they feel like, oh, this isn't just the adult's place. This is also Our place, so. And I want to be in the front row. Yeah. That's so beautiful. I love that. That's like. Yeah. A testament to how children feel safe and like, they. That that community belongs to them too. I love that. Yeah. [00:40:02] Speaker A: It's so fun. Well, so we mentioned discipline and worship a little bit. Is there another, maybe less obvious aspect of parenting that's, like, just important as, you know, discipline and getting our kids to do what they should be doing, raising them up the right way, that, like, maybe parents don't think about putting intention into and they tend to just kind of let happen. [00:40:25] Speaker B: That's a good question. I. I mean, coming from the. The evangelical side of this, I would say that's. That's less the problem. Okay. And more like, I think underthinking is the less the problem than overthinking. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Actually, I mean, I would say, like, if you're someone who's coming, trying to come out of this, like shepherding a child's heart baby wise, there's a whole bunch of other books that kind of draw on these same things. I actually think evangelical parents tend to think nothing is going to happen heaven on its own. Like, if I don't do. If I do not orchestrate everything, nothing I have to do, everything I have to do. Like baby Bible flashcards from the time they are toddlers, I have to be reading my storybook Bible with them every single night. I need to be getting them toys to help teach them Bible stories. I need to be listening to scripture memory songs all the time. I need to be pointing out to them what they might be doing that is sinful all the time, or they will never know, they will never be convicted. Like these. These books really do, in some cases yield this, like, intense spiritual scrupulosity. I think, especially for moms. I think most of these books are marketed heavily toward moms. There is. There's a huge gendered aspect of the way all this shakes out. Yeah. But I mean, this goes again, back to not ever feeling free to trust your gut. I think a lot of Christian moms who are steeped in this just feel like, I need to do all of this or my child is going to. Is never going to know God. And Ken Ham has aare. You familiar with Ken Ham? He's an apologist. The Ark Encounter Answers in Genesis. He has a parenting book, and he tends to talk about children as vessels that parents fill with saltiness that can very, very easily lose their saltiness. It's this. Parents are the end all, be all of A child's spiritual development. And I think, you know, research shows parents are influential. They are not all powerful. In some ways, we overestimate our influence, and in other ways we underestimate. We tend to overestimate the, like, I'm going to do this checklist. We tend to overestimate the influence of that and underestimate the influence of just the mundane work of relationship connection. Yeah, and I think a lot of parents feel like that's lazy. There is this author named Cynthia Held. She wrote. She's written a lot of women's Bible study kind of stuff over the years. Older now. A lot of her books are older. And I remember she was at a conference once at a church I used to attend, and someone asked her, what do you do to disciple your children in the Bible? Like, what. What does family quiet time look like? You know, asking this woman who's dead, devoted her life writing women's Bible studies, and she was like, we do not do Bible studies. I, I'm. I'm friends with my children. They see my work, they see the fruit of it in my life. They participate in the life of the church, but I don't need to do Bible study with them. That's not a part of our relationship. And I think for a lot of moms there, that was freeing and also shocking. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Shocking. Yeah, I'm sure. [00:43:42] Speaker B: And I don't want to say that it's bad. Like, it's all bad to do. I just. I think there's so much pressure to do things like that. And in some families, that is such a great life giving that can be done without sort of saddling everyone with this burden of performance. But that's not the case in every family. And I think there's so much freedom there. There's just so much freedom. [00:44:02] Speaker A: I think we have to learn different ways to look for, like, the fruit of our kids also, you know, listen, I'm a pastor, and I can't tell you the number of times that I, like, kick myself because I'm like, I don't know when the last time is that I read the Bible to my kids. Or, like, I bought them these, these great little journals that like, walk through the fruit of the spirit for kids. And there was a season where we would sit down. I don't know, there wasn't a timeline. Once a week, every other week, whatever. And we would, like, go through it and talk about it. Or I've bought in, like, you know, character counts, like little flashcards, and we would work on stuff. Then there are Seasons where I'm like, we don't. We don't do it at all. Like, we don't do anything. And so I end up feeling terrible. And I'm like, how is a. My daughters. I'm gonna have these, like, PKs who aren't going to feel like they were controlled in the church but don't know anything about God. And I'm like, what am I doing? So I've had to make myself reframe and not say, okay, I'm a success, because my parents, or my parents, my daughters can, like, spout off scripture, but instead I look for the fruit where, like, even just last night, we learned that a friend of a friend lost their house in a fire. And I just happened to kind of mention it because they were standing there. And next thing I know, my girls are both in their rooms. They are pulling out clothes, books, and stuffies for the girl that they do not know that is, like, between sizes of their, you know, clothes and whatever. And next thing I know, they have filled up two bags of things to. To donate to this girl. And I just had this moment where I was like, I don't care if they can't give me the scripture on why they did this. They 100% understand what it means to love other people and to love their neighbor and to show empathy and compassion and kindness. So I was like, they don't need a Bible verse. Like, they're getting it. They're learning it. They're. They're understanding what it looks like to be, you know, reflective of the heart of God in this world. And I was like, who? Okay, we have to look for those things instead, you know? [00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so, so sweet. And it's amazing. [00:46:13] Speaker A: And it's not me. Like, I don't take the credit for it. I'm like, it's the church they're in. They're just. They see it. Their eyes are open in an innocent way that I think we parent out of children sometimes. And we say, like, no, this is what matters. It's, you know, ticking off the boxes. I think we sh. We shut all of this, like, inerrant goodness out of them. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Or we just don't see it because we're looking for other stuff. We ignore that because it's like. Like, do you know you're awana versus. I don't know if a wand is still a thing where you are, but it still exists here. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. It does. Well, Kelsey, for parents maybe, who are just, like, having light bulbs go off as they listen to you, I know that you don't want to give them parenting advice, but is there anything that you can help with? Like how can they maybe undo possible scare quotes, damage that they've done in their parenting, like, thus far, Far. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. I mean, I don't know so much about undoing damage. Every. Every kind of parenting, you know, expert. I use that term carefully because there are different kinds of parenting experts. But every. Everyone who writes about this from the perspective of sort of clinician, mental health expert would say that connection and relationship really does a lot of the work. Right. And I wish I had better advice for people who are looking to heal their relationship with their kids, because I'm not a family therapist. I will say that in my own sort of d. Well, I don't even want to use the word deconstruction, but I will use it. Deconstruction. Deconstructing the. The myths that I kind of found myself living in without even knowing. I think one really important one for me has been deconstructing the myth of my own authority and my own importance. I think some of these books really saddle parents with this need to. My children must respect me. My parental authority is the first thing. And I think when we look back, for a lot of us, the moments of damage with our parents were moments where our parents insisted on their own authority and their own importance. And I think that's a really easy way to do damage. Yeah. And I think when I. In a moment with a hard moment with one of my kids and more concerned about are they respecting me than I am with kind of figuring out what they need, I respond out of indignance. I respond more harshly. I respond less patiently. And so I guess that's maybe my. My one thing that I would say, if you can maybe work on that, that has helped me a lot. A lot is just sort of knocking myself down a peg as a parent. It just. I am, you know, I am not above my child in the eyes of God. And they, Their feelings, their responses to the world are not an affront to me. They're. They're not. They're not an affront to me. And, And I think that kind of re. Reorienting the way we see ourselves and our children can be really life giving. And I think reflecting, if you grew up in a household where these resources were used can help you understand your parents a little bit more. And the moments where you were hurt by your parents because they were being told also. [00:49:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Yes. That you must insist that your Children respect you. I mean, James Dobson comes out and says, like, you must. You must require obedience. You must require that your children respect you. And you can't force someone to respect you. Right. You can't. You. You can force them to act like it if they're smaller than you. Yeah. I mean, you can try to coerce them. I supp. And I think a lot of damage has been done by parents being told, you must force this from your children. [00:50:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, for people maybe that are listening, that are not parents or don't plan to parent with this book, and you just mentioned, you know, give us a little compassion, where our parents were coming from. Do you think this book is one that would help them to heal somehow? [00:50:29] Speaker B: I hope so. I think there, in the end, there is a chapter that really includes almost exclusively stories from people who we interviewed for this book. So you can. You might see some of your experiences reflected back to you in those stories. We wanted to include as many of those as we could. And I'll also say the first two chapters are a little bit more of like a how we got here history lesson, which is my. Like, that's my bread and butter. That's. I'm excited about that. But it. It kind of traces the. The ways that a lot of parenting advice that we've internalized over the past 50 years or so in is very politically motivated and connected to major social changes that happened in the last quarter of the 20th century. And so if you're also just looking to make sense of the moment we're in, in the church, this. The books, these parenting books have implications and kind of shed light on other things that we're seeing. You know, Doug Wilson was on CNN over the summer. He makes an appearance in our book. There's some really. There's a chapter on gender of unpacks the way that gender ideology makes its way into what we think we need to do when we're raising children. So I think even if you're not a parent, you don't plan on being a parent. This book also maybe makes sense of the political moment and the moment we're in. In the church. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Kelsey, I wish we had time. We don't have time to get into it. I wish we did. We could talk so much about how this is connected to. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:02] Speaker A: Kind of like a trad wife movement. And a lot of the things that we're seeing, as far as, like you said, gender and polit politics and the roles of women and all kinds of things. We do not have time, however, have You. Or will you be writing about that? And if so, where can we find it? Because I will link people up. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Yes. So I, I wrote a article about tradwife culture last year for Christianity Today. You can find that I am also working on, working on an essay right now about the Christian glow up trend. Kind of like this beauty, Christian beauty, does God want you to be physically attractive kind of thing. My next book with Brazos Press is going to be about the marketing of diet and wellness culture to Christian women. And there will be some stuff about trad wife culture in there as well. Because the, the, that whole world right now and its relationship to American evangelicalism and political conservatism is fascinating and complicated. And there is so much to say about all of that. And that will make an appearance because those things are very closely tied to wellness culture and make America healthy again and all of those things. [00:53:19] Speaker A: There is so much connection in things that don't appear to be visibly connected. Once you start digging in and like, pulling the threads and you're like, oh, appearance is tied to the role of women and people staying home. And women can stay home. I am so happy for women to stay home if that is their choice. Like, I just want them to be. [00:53:39] Speaker B: Able to decide for themselves. So. [00:53:41] Speaker A: But we will look for that book. I will look for your Christianity Today articles. And then you also have a substack. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:53:47] Speaker A: I think you write on yours a little more infrequently like I do, but I will put it in the show notes as well. Listen, we're busy. We're moms. We have lives. [00:53:56] Speaker B: Like, it's okay. Yes, absolutely. Yes. You can find my substack. I also post quite a lot on Instagram, so you can find me there. That's where most of my content lives. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, the last question before I let you go is because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:54:15] Speaker B: I would love for us all to become the church by treating children as equal parts of the church. The church is for children, and children are for the church. And, and they are not secondary members. We are not waiting for them to come of age to be full participants. They are there. We can learn from them. They can lead us. I think that in certain segments of the American church, children have been sort of programmed out, given their own separate things, which is fine. Sometimes, logistically, that is necessary. And they also enjoy being with their peers. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:52] Speaker B: But I think there is a way to do that that does not treat them as just sort of like, I don't know, either evidence that the church is healthy, right. Or just sort of like off. Off to play until they're old enough to understand the real part of being church. That's not. Yeah, that's not true. They are the real church. So I love that. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Thank you so much. This has been really great. [00:55:17] Speaker B: Thank you. This was so fun. Thanks for having me. [00:55:24] Speaker A: A theme that I hope you pick up on this show is the idea of Imago Day. That every single person on this planet was created as a reflection of God and for that reason alone should never, ever be dehumanized or looked down on or seen as less than any other person. I know we tend to think about this when it comes to marginalized people groups, but I love that Kelsey made the connection to children. Our kids will never reach a magical age where all of a sudden they're worthy of being respected. They have that inherent value now because God gave it to them from the very beginning. If you're lucky enough to know a kid, whether it's in your own home, church, or neighborhood, I hope you'll pause sometime soon just to have a chat with them, ask about their interests, and maybe get a fresh glimpse of the nature of God. If you do have a spicy one who teaches you how to love in humility and grace? Follow Mary Van Geffen and look into some of her online courses for gentle yet firm parenting. And if you really do want to be intentional on how to teach your kids about God and Jesus in the Bible. Or maybe you're not sure when and how to explain certain theological concepts to them. Meredith Ann Miller is always my go to expert for all things kids and faith. Follow her on social media and get her book nurturing a faith that your kids don't have to heal from. Please share this episode with a parent that you know. Just text them the link right now, whoever it is that comes to mind. And until then, keep becoming the church of people around you.