Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young. My guest today is Christy Adams, and she's here to talk about womanism and womanist theology. She's going to share what it is and. And why it should inform all of our belief systems.
Well, good morning, Christy. Welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Good morning. Thank you for having me.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: Yes. So happy for you to be here.
Listen, you are new to our audience, so I want you to tell people a little bit about you.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Oh, gosh.
So currently I live in Baltimore County, Maryland. I work as executive director of Community and belonging for the St. Paul's schools.
So that's six schools. A preschool, a boys middle, a boys upper, a girl's middle, a girl's upper. It's an elementary school. So it's a cohort of schools.
And I work in, like, sort of overseeing community and belonging efforts. So that is diversity efforts, that's spiritual life. That is anything around civil discourse, wellness, civilization. So that's what I do. I'm also an ordained minister. I'm ordained with American Baptist churches, even though I've mostly been doing pulpit supply for Presbyterian churches for the past, working on that.
And I'm an author and I'm from New Jersey originally, so I always rep. Jersey. But my vocation has mainly been in independent schools.
I went to Temple University for my undergrad and I went to Princeton Theological Seminary for my master's way back when.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Okay, well, I'm so excited for you to bring all of your wisdom and knowledge and all of your things to the show. I do want to know. I used to teach kindergarten, and so I want to know how you talk about, like, what did you call it? Civil justice or civil discourse? You know, how do you do that with the little ones?
[00:02:11] Speaker B: That's a good question, because we're in the middle of that right now.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: You are.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: So basically like, by the time they graduate from whatever school they're in, right? So you're not going to necessarily graduate from.
From pre preschool, but when they matriculate and then they. They're entering into elementary, we're like, okay, what should we have introduced them to? What. What should they have as far as those kind of like, innate resources?
So have we built empathy within them? How we introduced empathy.
So by the time they leave elementary school in the fifth grade or in the fourth grade and they're entering into the middle school, we're sort of coming up with Some of those core competencies should be because we want, by the time they graduate from their 12th grade and they're entering into college, we want for them to be able to have a roommate that's different from them and know how to hold a conversation right, know how to agree to disagree.
So we're kind of going back to the drawing board with the elementary. I'm going to do like a pilot program with the third graders, and we're just sort of introducing the basics, but we're using the. Those values, those core competencies as like a guide for how we do it. So we're not like, last year, really quick, I taught seventh grade. There's a seminar for seventh grade girls. And it was a social justice seminar. This was my first year there. And so I basically, like, guided the school and said, hey, look, like, maybe social justice for a lot of these young girls who are not from. Do not have that background whatsoever, that might be a bit much. Maybe we sort of introduce that term later. Maybe we start off with ethics. Maybe they just don't know how to make good decisions. And if somebody's being bullied or if something is happening to a friend or someone they don't know, how do they decide whether or not to step in? Do you step in? Those are the things they need to know. So I think, you know, yes, for the little ones, but we have to decide what they need to know before we can figure out how to go about it.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and it just sounds. I mean, you're starting with character traits. When you said empathy, compassion, communication skills, like, all of these things are necessary and important.
And that's a question that we. We talk about all kinds of things on this podcast. And that's a question. Sometimes it's like, well, how do I teach this to my kids? I don't want them to, like, wait until they're teenagers. And then all of a sudden I'm trying to talk to them about the important things of the world. Like, that's exactly what you said. Help teach them to be good people. Teach them to be considerate, teach them to communicate.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah, sometimes we jump, like, we jump to the terms that, you know, are deep and really, really mature. And they don't have that. There's some basics.
I mean, any. For any, like English or, you know, some of those classes that are more advanced, you. They always say, okay, you have to have English 101, or you have to have these basic things. So how come we don't do the same things when it comes to these types of topics.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's a really good point, dear. Department of Education, let's build this in.
So you talked a little bit about, like, kind of your faith background, education wise, but talk to us a little bit about growing up and your faith.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah, so my parents were a part of the Baptist church, the black Baptist church, to be specific, because there's just sort of a different system there. And so they. My dad was a deacon and my mom was a deaconess. Sort of Fast forward to 2025. They're all deacons. Right.
But in the 80s, you know, it was like, distinctive. If you're a woman, you're a deaconess, you know, so my mom was deaconess, but they both were church leaders. And the deaconess and the deacon in the church were really like. It was like the pastor, the associate pastors, the deacons, as far as service was concerned, and then like the trustees. And so the deacons were the ones that, you know, served communion to us in the church, but also those in the community or those that were sick and shut in. They did a lot of the caregiving that the pastor would not necessarily, you know, always be able to do.
So I watched that growing up.
And my church was my pastor, Reverend Soares, at the time, he had, right before he came to our church, he worked for Rainbow Push Coalition under Jesse Jackson as the executive director.
His mentality was very.
They were coming out of the civil rights movement. It was very justice and community focused. So our church, as a result, that was the direction that he took us in. So we were a church of sort of worship, but also like community care, community outreach. Eventually he became Secretary of State for New Jersey. For the state of New Jersey. And so there was a lot of kind of politics overlapping.
I spent time going to board of education meetings as a teenager because that's what we did. We would show up and we would want to know what's going on in the schools around us. So the church that I was at was so active, and in between that, it was Sunday school and vacation Bible school and choir rehearsal. So I never saw a distinction between the community and the, the institution of the church. It was just. That's what we did. And if something happened, which there were a few times where, you know, a kid got, you know, murdered, there were some, some, some unfortunate incidents that did take place. But our church was like jumping on it, you know, not just doing the funeral. We're marching in the streets, we're doing anti violence campaigns.
I remember one time really quick that the. There was a person that was the owner of a gas station who got robbed. And our church took a donation up and that Sunday, and we walked to the gas station and prayed for the gas station owner who was of a completely different faith. So that was kind of what was instilled in me.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: That is so beautiful. In the back of my mind, I'm like, this sounds like a movie. And then I get sad because I'm like, but why? Like, why does it sound like a movie? Why can't I just be like, oh, yeah, that's what the church does.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: But we should. We should. And I did not prep you for this question, Christy, but I'm good. What do you think if there are other. Let's say there's other, like, church pastors, leaders, whatever, listening, or just people who are active in their own church, and they're also saying, yes, this is what the church should be.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: How would you encourage them if maybe their leader is not like your reverend was not necessarily so focused on, like, community integration? What would you encourage them to do? To kind of like, start guiding in that direction?
[00:08:48] Speaker B: I think, okay, there's two things. I think the church should meet the moment.
So, you know, I don't necessarily think that our church could have been doing what we are, you know, where we are in 2025, 2026. That was the moment for the 90s. Right.
And so we don't really need to copy paste anything. And then also at the same time, like, I have a friend, Jesse, she's a pastor of a Presbyterian church in Annapolis, and they do what they can do, and they're very middle mosaic. Some are more conservative leaning, some are more liberal leaning. And so she is. Treads that line very carefully, but she's like, okay, where are our strengths? And sort of build from there. I don't think we need to be kind of like trying to be anyone else's institution or church or do things. It's. It's more like let's capitalize off of who we are and what our strengths are and where we are. We happen to be in a community where it sort of worked out, but I've lived in other communities where it wouldn't have necessarily fit. So it's so important to do an inventory of where you're at and. And meet the moment, you know, meet the needs for the moment that you're in.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: That is so lovely. And I want to meet your friend because I'm like, oh, that sounds like our church too.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Great.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: That's so awesome. Well, thank you for that. I do want to talk about your book. It's called Womanish Theology.
And so we have a lot of people listening, Kristy, who are curious, but they're in, like, various stages of their learning. So before we, like, really jump into it, help people understand what womanist theology even is.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Okay. So I love to give these sort of basic overviews. You know, I'm fully prepared for it when people ask, because, you know, it's. It's a vague title if you're not used to it, but womanist. And then I'll go into womanish. But I always start off by saying using the civil rights movement as an example and using the feminist movement as an example. There was a need for more women's voices in the civil rights movement. There was a focus on equal rights for the. For the races, but there was a lack of voices and attention to women.
And then in the feminist movement, it was about equal equality for women. Right. And women's rights in general.
But oftentimes, women of color, black women's voices got kind of got stifled. For example, when were women given the right to vote? Women might have been given the right to vote, but black women were not given the right to vote. So there's an intersection in both movements. Right. An intersection of race and gender that was not necessarily tended to. And so out of that emerged black feminism and subsequently emerged something called womanism and Womanist. Well, womanism in general, but the theology part came later. Okay. I also want to note that there are other theologies. Asian American women theology, Latina women's theology, Latinx theologies, or, you know, different movements that kind of came out of that. So. But the womanist movement specifically focused on equality, centering the voices and the experiences of black women, specifically.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Okay. So for people that are listening and they're like, well, one, I have not read any of this because it doesn't apply to me. And two, maybe they are not even considering, like, reading diverse voices because they get their theology mostly from white men, and that's just what they've been given. How would reading womanist theology benefit them?
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Well, I would tell them sort of my story, too. Like, when I was at Princeton, you know, I came in a little bit more conservative, weirdly.
And I say, as I say weirdly, but, like, I say that because I remember seeing an elective called womanist Feminist. It was womanist. I mean, it was feminist, slash womanist. And it was theology. And I was, oh, absolutely not. Like, it's heretical. I just don't even know why I thought that. Even today, I just want us to stick to the standard systematic theology, New Testament, Old Testament theology, pastoral care. And then, you know, as time went on my first year, I had to, like, really do a lot of inventory in general and a lot of deconstructing. And I'm like, why do I feel this way? What is this resistance? And I. But it was also resistance to something I didn't know. Like, I had assumptions about feminism, and I always heard about, quote, unquote, radical feminism, whatever that, you know, might be. But, like, I just literally had. Had no idea, but was resisting something that I had no idea about. And so I had to kind of take some inventory over myself as to like, well, what is my problem? Right.
By my second year, I would see myself as taking a class like that, like, as like a stretch, you know, like, let me stretch my imagination and take a class. Meanwhile, I'm a black woman. Like, it just didn't make any sense, but, like, it was how I kind of not grew up, but it was my thinking.
And so when I took the class, it did challenge me quite a bit. You know, I also intellectually wasn't as prepared for it, but it challenged me to be exposed to other ways of people's perspectives, of how they grew up viewing God and, you know, theological principles. But also just like, wow, I can. I can learn about God through other.
Other lenses that are not the standard lens, through Karl Bart or Paul Tillich or, you know, like, kind of like the. The same Reinhold Niebuhr. And somewhere along the way, I learned. I. I learned or thought that that was. I mean, these voices were, you know, equating to Paul in the. In the scriptures, as far as I was concerned, because it was like, that's where we get our theology from.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: So I had. It took a while to undo some of that thinking. So anybody that is hesitant, I'm always very patient with because I experienced that on a very basic level. And then my mind opened up.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah. As a black woman, when you were reading some of these, did it help you to feel. Seen it?
[00:15:14] Speaker B: It did, yeah, it did. But it's weird because in some spaces, and I deal with this in general now, like, you know, working in white spaces and sometimes people. People of color in spaces when they're the only. They feel singled out if there's any attention kind of given.
So I. You just want to blend sometimes some people. Right. And. And so blending and being like, yeah, I know. Karl Barton. Yeah, I. You know, it. It Just brought me a certain level of comfort. And so there were times where if we were in class, and I remember systematic theology, we had this professor named Mark Taylor, and he played.
It was required for everybody to take this class. So everyone in my. In my class was. Was in the course.
And he played this Billie Holiday video where she sung this song called Strange Fruit, which is about like, kind of like lynchings and ode to lynchings and when black people were being lynched and hanging from the lynching tree. But he was like, introducing James Cone. But I remember sitting in the class and, like, looking around because, you know, it was making other people feel uncomfortable. And therefore I'm like, are they looking at me? And so I struggled sometimes with that. Once I got over that, then I truly did feel seen and was grateful. So it's like these layers that you have to go through.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Well, I think even I've read a little bit. Like, I've read Shaniqua Walker Barnes and like Candice Marie Ben Bau. And honestly, there were parts of Candace's book where I was like.
And just people like, we're not always going to see eye to eye with everybody, you know. But as I was going through her book, I remember there were a couple of points that I felt uncomfortable and I had to close it and ask myself the same questions. And I'm like, what am I uncomfortable with?
Am I uncomfortable just with the way she's talking about things? Am I uncomfortable in, like, in. In her explanation? But it really is her lived experience. And because it's not mine, it feel, you know, and so, yeah, your idea of, like, you know, we can see through other lenses and just learn from different people's perspectives. Yeah, it gives us a richer, broader picture.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a good point because that, that, you know, the, the discomfort is not always agreement. It doesn't have to lead to agreement at the same time.
But you still need to figure out what the discomfort is. Right. Like, and that's, that's in essence what. What we have a lot less of today. In today's age, being able to sit and hear something and feel uncomfortable. Now, granted, you could, you know, if it's attacking you when you're, you know, your whole being and identity, that's a different story. But being able to hear and squirm a little bit. And that's what Princeton taught me. It taught us to squirm a bit, to hear other people's opinions and to have to sit in it, you know, regardless, and allow it to do the internal work. Within us, no matter where that internal work leads.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So good.
Talk to us about Midrash. Does Midrash play a part of, like, womanist theology?
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. You know, I think that the whole idea of Midrash is sort of going beyond the surface. Right.
And that's exactly what womanish and womanist theology does. Right. Interprets like, scripture and saying, okay. I mean, it's quite literally what has been done my whole life. It's just now we're sort of putting terminology to it, you know, but what's beneath it and how does it speak to, you know, where we are? Like I said, in the moment, how can it be interpreted for the things that we are experiencing at the time? You know, so it's really just about sort of like, engaging.
Engaging the text and actively engaging the text, and that's what it. What it does. Yeah.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Dr. Wilbur Gaffney, obviously, womanist Midrash is my favorite one, the one that I go to. But, yeah, for a lot. For people that are listening are like. I don't know what they're talking about.
We talk a lot about, like, holy imagination on this show. And so it's just that it's kind of filling in the gaps of what was maybe said, what could maybe they have been thinking, and not necessarily for, like, exegetical study, but just to help, again, give you a bigger, more beautiful picture of what's actually taking place.
So, Christy, your book is called Womanish Theology. Tell us a little bit about your book specifically.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: So womanish comes from the term womanist. Alice Walker, an author in the 80s, wrote a book called In Search of Her Mother's Gardens. And she was introducing womanism. And when she introduced womanism, she introduced it with a terminology, with a term womanist, that the definition starts off by saying it comes from the term womanish. And it was a term generationally and historically, that was used in black families. Maybe not every. Every black family, but. But a good number of black families in the past, particularly with. With women, elder grandmothers and. And mothers and aunties that would say to their daughters, you're acting womanish.
If they were trying to sort of get involved. Like, if you've ever, like, overheard a conversation with adult women in the kitch, something like that, and you go in and you chime in, and they're like, you know, no, this is grown folks business. Right. So that's where sort of womanish comes from, acting adult. But you're really kind of young.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: And so when I was trying to think through, because one of the Things I write in the beginning of the book is that when I was at a book talk for one of my earlier books, someone asked me, what would a black girlhood theology look like?
And part of me was like, you know, because womanist theology, because we talked about womanism a little earlier, but the theology part is centering the religious and spiritual experiences of black women and black women's stories.
And.
But womanist theology does involve girlhood. Right. It's. It's about women and girls.
But I felt like, you know, when. When I got asked that question, like maybe there does need, you know, need to be something set aside for black girlhood specifically and not necessarily lumped in.
And so when I was thinking through a title, I saw the. I was like, I didn't need to look very far for what it would be called because it was right here.
But instead of it kind of being a negative, like getting in, it was more like black girlhood sort of diving into theological topics that can be seen as adult topics. Right. And what might that look like? And so that's where I got womanish theology. Okay.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's really about, like, embracing all of that for. For all people.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And I also thought through, too. You know, I talked about seminary a lot so far. And. And, you know, when I was reading those systematic theology books, and there would be a chapter on Christology or a chapter on the imago DEI or a chapter on salvation.
I remember that in those big binders. And what might Karl Bart have to say. Say about that?
And in this, in my mind, I sort of structured the book where what might black girls. Right.
Have to say about salvation or the imago day, you know, or theological topics. But I dove into my story because I was like, wow, I was shaped from this. From a. Like a little girl. Right. So I kind of use that to guide the. The structure of the book.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and you wrote about too, how, like, we have an early exposure to scripture and that does kind of form our faith, but it's attention. Right. Because, like, while it's a good. While it's good to have a strong foundation, it's even better to be able to then, like, expand our interpretation of that sometimes.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: How would you encourage people listening to. Do that.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: To. You mean, to expand their sort of.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: What they're to go, hey, this is what I've always believed this mean.
And maybe.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Right, right. You know, it's. It's interesting because experience, even though the Methodists and I think the Quakers, right. They. They focus a lot on sort of, like, reason and experience.
And we don't talk and we don't give enough credit to experience. I think in, like, in the academy, if you're getting a PhD, there are quantitative studies and there are qualitative studies, and oftentimes, I think quantitative studies get a better rap because it's like, it's. It's. It's written down. It is specific. But then there's qualitative studies that are very much like focus groups. And what did you learn from the conversation? And I think we need to be leaning more toward that when it comes to expanding our knowledge. We have the scripture, right? Yeah. But it's meant to be placed alongside experience at the same time. I mean, we see it in the scripture, Right. In stories. And so I think when it comes to. We talked about earlier exposing ourselves to other. Other theologies, but other perspectives.
If the definition of imago DEI is, you know, being created in the image of God, then that. And we are all created in the image of God. That means that there's so much that we have to learn because everybody looks and is so different. Yeah. So there's so much to learn about God from other people.
Yeah. So we'll never stop learning.
But I think if we stay in our silos, then we can't expand, and God is so expansive that some of us are pushed out of our comfort zone, and then some of us actually go and seek it out. So I encourage people to seek it out.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
In your girlhood, Christie, you've talked a little bit about, like, your story, your experience. What is an experience?
Maybe from childhood that. That kind of solidified, like, okay, this is the path I'm going to be on, or this is who I believe myself to be in God.
[00:25:21] Speaker B: It's. It's probably like. Like a more sad experience.
So I know we've had, like, a really, like, joyful conversation. I don't want to hold multitudes. Yeah.
Like, it's. It's. And I wrote about it in the book.
There are exactly what I just said. There's the scripture. There are things that I learned in Sunday school and in church. And then there was a moment in my teenage years that it became very real when a friend of mine was killed in a domestic violence incident with her father. Father killed her and then killed her mom and then killed herself himself. And so this sort of triple, like, murder at 15 years old, I just couldn't wrap my brain around, but I was in the thick of sort of like, my adolescent formation, but also my spiritual formation, too.
So that really challenged me.
Like, whoa, what is this about? Right before that, I was going through the motions. I was learning things, doing, you know, just crossing your T's and dotting your I's. The formula says this, then you do that. This was the first time that I was like, whoa, my faith is being challenged. Whoa. Like, this can happen to anyone. This isn't just like, oh, you get older and you're 100 years old and you pass on. Like, death becomes real. It becomes a finality. I talk about this in my chapter on.
I'm talking about kind of like suffering and theodicy.
That was sort of when it was really introduced. And that was a real turning point for me when Norell died because, interestingly, I started thinking about perfect purpose and why I'm here on this earth. Sure. And what am I supposed to do? And so, you know, that's when it really became real for me.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
Did you have, like, a crisis of faith?
I'm sure you did.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. Like, it was just questions. And I think before then, there were no questions. There weren't. Not many questions.
[00:27:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Just told. For the Bible tells me so. Right. Like, this is what you're supposed to. These are what you memorize, and this is what you do.
And it's not to say that it wasn't internal and that those were very important steps, but the questioning, that's a really significant, very important step that a lot of people are afraid of because it does come with a lot of discomfort.
But, you know, it was a lot of why God? And a lot of silence and a lot of confusion. I didn't know where to. You know, it was like, well, wait, why did that happen?
And, well, if this. Then this. And I. I had some conversations with her. I think I talk about it in the book, about when some of my last conversations with her were asking her why she didn't. I didn't see her at church anymore because she used to go to my church.
And she said, I don't really believe in, you know, any of that. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, you know, I remember just. I wasn't prepared for that and thought, you know. And granted, it's not about church. Right. Specifically. So that's. That's not what I'm saying. But it was more like, you know, to have these moments, this friendship was more than just. We played basketball together, so it was more than just ball. It was. It was like I was thinking, oh, was I supposed to have deeper conversations with her? You know, like, so all of those things Came up. And it was a crisis of faith. It was a crisis of.
You know, I remember I was getting ready to go into an honors program that year, my senior year in high school. So all my classes were going to be honors. I dropped out of that.
And I don't regret it to this day, honestly, because I just wanted to be with my friends.
So things that were most. That were important to me started to sort of come out.
I was always going to play basketball in college. I played basketball nonstop my entire adolescence. And I decided, like, maybe I'm supposed to go for something else. So those are the types of things that started happening, and it changed the trajectory of my life.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: For people that are right now in their own kind of, like, questioning.
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Because I feel like it's not. It's often thrust upon us. You know, this is not a season that you chose. I think for a lot of people, whatever you want to call it, deconstruction, crisis of faith, whatever.
It's generally not something we choose, but something we're, like, thrown into circumstantially.
How would you encourage them if they're still in that, like, wrestling right now, to, like, keep leaning in? Like, what would be your encouragement for that?
[00:29:57] Speaker B: That God is not intimidated by our questions or our doubts.
Not. God doesn't shame us for our questions or our doubts.
And God sits with us in our questions and our doubts.
He didn't shame Jesus, didn't shame Thomas when he didn't believe. He didn't say, how dare you? He. He leaned in as much as Thomas was asking, you know, and he. He leaned down to where Thomas was.
Anytime anyone didn't believe, you know, he was right there. He was literally Emmanuel, God with us.
And so.
So even though it may not feel like it, you might feel far from. From God, but God is definitely not far from you.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you.
Well, in your book, you also write about prayer and how our prayers kind of reveal our understanding of God and who God is. Who did you understand God to be as a girl and then, you know, as a child? And how has that understanding kind of changed throughout your prayer life?
[00:31:03] Speaker B: I was sort of introduced to a sort of like a parental, Maternal.
Maternal relationship with God, which I really appreciate.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: You know, I think that is. Was passed down generationally.
You know, my. My grandmother, you know, my. My.
My elders were not necessarily schooled, but they understood God to be personal, and so that was passed down to me.
You know, they're in a time of need, you know, those types of. That type of language and that type of thinking. So it spilled over into the church. Very personal relationship with God. And so I really appreciated that because, you know, it wasn't maternal or paternal in the sense of, like, I just had my mom and dad.
My church helped raise me, the pastor and the church leaders. And, you know, to this day, if they pass away, it's like, ugh, you know, because it feels like a family member. So because I had that village, it felt that. That spiritual prayer connection to God felt very similar.
And so really grateful for that. And I think I have evolved because there were times where prayer felt performative, you know, as I kind of went on in life. And there are times where it is somewhat necessary for it to be performative because you're in a setting. Right. Where they're asking you to pray or whatever it might be. But I've been introduced. I've worked at Georgetown University. I've been in Jesuit. This Jesuit college. And so I've been around the Jesuits and the monks who, you know, who just kind of hum and are very quiet. I've been in contemplative spaces. I've been in Pentecostal spaces. And it's all beautiful. I think I went through a period of, like, which one is right? And, like, you know, being criticized, you know, criticizing it. Don't take all that, or it's not enough, you know, or whatever. And it's like, that's everyone's relationship with God. That is how they all. And so I don't have to take one or the other. Mine is personal and what it is to me. And so I've come back full circle around to the personal, which I'm really grateful for.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: I think that's what prayer really can do once we get past that, like you said, either performative or even, like, scripted part.
[00:33:28] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: I. For me, growing up, prayer was sterile. It was just. You say the words, you assume God's listening. Like, you know, it was the same thing at bed every night. It was the same thing before we ate every. Every meal. And I had to really learn, like, sometimes I can just be thinking. Sometimes I can be weeping without words. And, like, it's all prayer.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: Well, talking about those, you know, your spiritual mothers and fathers in your church, in your community, what would you want parents or even just like, other leaders and caregivers to know about raising this next generation in faith?
[00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah. That should not be done in a silo.
These young people need all of us.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: They need all of us.
And the the it takes a village to raise a child is not relegated to one particular community.
It is even more important now than ever. So when I'm teaching, I teach a class called Sacred Activism. It is not necessarily, as, you know, it's not in church or anything like that, but I see that as my contribution to helping to shape the faith of these young people.
I have a friend, Kim, who has a little sister that. From a Big Brother Big Sisters program from many, many years ago. And she's been with this young woman now for well over 10 years, just mentoring her.
And, you know, she's like, well, I'm not her. I'm not her mom. So I feel, like, bad that I'm crying that she's, like, graduating and I'm getting sentimental and I'm like, no, you're part of her village. You know, you're part of her fucking village if you weren't there. Yeah.
So we all need to really lean in and to help young people wherever God has called us, to be an influence in their life and parents, I think. And going back to my friend Jesse, I was talking about earlier, you know, Jesse, reason why one of the things I love about Jesse is that with her kids, she's like, this is Auntie Christie, is Auntie Kim. You know, he's like, all right. You know, she likes. She wants to expose her to as many people to influence her daughter and her son as possible because she knows that, you know, that she is definitely enough. But she's using these added resources that God has placed in her life to help shape her. Her kids. And I, I'm grateful for that, for that opportunity.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I. It makes me think of our church mosaic. We have so many kids running around and our families all look so different. We have a lot of, like, mixed race couples and whatever. So on a Sunday morning, you have no idea who belongs with who.
Like the parents are parenting whatever kid.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah. That's.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: No idea who goes with who.
Never give it a second thought. It's not like, hey, let me check with your mom and make sure it's okay that I correct your. No, we just, we're like you said, we're going to learn from each other. We're all going to grow all these kids up.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: You know who they need to be.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And one thing I, you know, I've noticed an increase of. And this might just be independent schools, I don't know. But, like, parents are really afraid.
There's a lot of fear just in general in society. And so, you know, there's this increase of if a teacher or an advisor corrects a child or corrects a teen, teenage boy or girl, the parents are diving in. How dare you. They're CCing their lawyers. You know, like, it is absolutely ridiculous. Right? Like, for the ones that are unjustified, at least. And.
And it's like, you know, no, that. That level of accountability of, like, hey, if you don't, you know, this is a real situation. If you. Your child, he didn't show up for basketball practice, and so because of that, he's not going to start. And it's like, parents are coming down just like, how dare you? And all of that. And the kids know that. And so they're using. Some of them are using that and say, oh, my mom's going to come after you. Whatever. And not to say that I didn't do that when I was growing up to an extent, but there were times where I would do it, and my mom would be like, no, you still have to serve that detention, because you should. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so it's like their parents are so afraid that they're not even leaning in and allowing other voices and influences, positive at least, to offer, you know, helpful redirection or correction or just firmness.
And so there is a gatekeeping almost of that that I'm noticing that isn't allowing villages to really go in and really help that. So there's something that has shifted in the mentality of people in general that I would hate to see happen in the church.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we're not serving our kids well by doing that. We are. We're just like, hey, we're actually narrowing their perspective of everything by going, no. Like, mom and Dad's way is the one way, the right way. Everybody else is wrong. We are. We are making their world smaller and smaller as opposed to.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: Expanding and growing it.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:42] Speaker A: Christy, I want to kind of, like shift here a little bit as we kind of come toward the end of our conversation. Something that I cannot relate to, but intentionally really try to make space for is the lived experience of people in the black community. And I know that suffering is unique, specifically in the black community.
And so I want to know, like, did the oppression, injustice that people experience, does that ever challenge what you believe to be true about God? How do you hold those two things together?
[00:39:13] Speaker B: I. So there's this film called 12 Years a Slave that.
That came out, however, many years ago, and I used to teach a class when I worked at a boarding school called Religion and Film, and we watched 12 Years Slavery.
And we sort of dissect it. And I think about. Even though it was a true, true story, I think about. There's a scene where they're on this plantation, and the plantation owner, played by Michael Fassbender, is reading the Bible, and there are some of his white family members and the black people that were enslaved that were on the side, and he's reading to them about, you know, your slave owner, you obey, blah, blah. There's two different interpretations happening. Right. But then they. There is a moment. There's other moments in the scene where they kind of like walk away and they are having their own service. Almost like, you know, they may not be able to read the Bible themselves because many were not able to read until we're illiterate.
They were creating their own songs. They found their way to God. Even in the midst of the suffering. Yeah. And. And even in the midst of the misinterpretation, the violent misinterpretation of the Bible that they were listening, they listening to, they still found a way.
And that. That is what I think about.
I think about our ancestors who pushed through in spite of it all and. And still were able to lean on God, still believe, still trusted God. So when I do doubt or when there are experiences in the black community, I think, wow. But this is what they were able to experience and still come out with wisdom and survive many all these generations later. I mean, when I go to these museums and I see how many black African enslaved did not survive the Middle Passage, you know, hundreds of thousands. And then how many were separated from their families when they got here, and how many were murdered and hung, and yet here we are still here.
How many leaned on God? It's like, there's the suffering, but there's something beautiful that's taking place in the midst of it that still speaks to us to this day.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
Is that. I know you write about the Odyssey a little bit in your book. Does that kind of all play into this?
[00:41:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: Concept for people.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: So theodicy basically just asks the question, if God is a good God, then why would that God allow bad things to happen? The Odyssey doesn't. It asks the question, doesn't necessarily answer the question.
And, you know, it just. We just sort of explore suffering in the human experience. And I appreciate any of the texts that.
That do their books out that, you know, that talk about the Odyssey and suffering, and they don't necessarily land anywhere, like I said, but it's good to sort of talk it through.
But I do think that you know, when I think about where we are even now, contextually as a society, I'm going back and I'm reading older books from, that were written from Ida B. Wells and whoever else, because I'm like, how did they do it? You know, because suffering was so prevalent within our diaspora, right. Within our communities and our culture, yet. Yet also was salvation was so prevalent and joy and, you know, I mean, so, so much goodness did emerge from our suffering.
And that is when I go, when I talk about the civil rights movement, the same thing that the songs that were sung, you know, as. As they marched, right. As hoses were being. As they were being hosed down, you know, going back to the church house and, you know, like, leaning on God and leaning on the scriptures and the preaching, and that was really a suffering movement. Right. That was a time of suffering. Yet in the midst of all that, they were able to kind of find their way to God. I just think there's so much that we have to learn from those that came before for us that will really help guide us from. For where we are right now.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Well, what do you think predominantly white churches especially, like, what do they need to learn? Like, what have they misunderstood about, you know, the spiritual wisdom of either black girlhood or just the black church and community in general?
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think that I don't want to say ignoring, but it's like you don't know what you don't know, and if you don't know the history, then you're going to make assumptions very similar to what I said about the feminist womanist class. Right. It's like it's only what you heard. Yeah.
But it's only when you dive in and you read the text or you watch the films and you. And you hear the stories that something clicks and comes to life and you're like, oh, you know, that really did happen. Which is why so much history is being erased right now. Because once you know, there's no way around it. Right. Like, you're responsible for that information, but it also does something on the inside of you that sort of changes your perspective and how you go about. And I think the sort of white churches would better serve as partners to our community if they were more open to going back and diving into the history.
So that if you say, oh, okay, like, it's not necessarily excuses per se. Right. It's more like this is why things are the way that they are and here's how we probably need to move forward, but it's like we can't move forward unless you really, like, know where you came from and know what's in the DNA of this, of our history and of this country.
So, you know, growing up, I. My history books were really just Martin Luther King and a mention of Rosa Parks. I just, I didn't know.
Even though I grew up in a black family. Family, black church really wasn't until I got to college and got to seminary and I was reading the text and I was like, oh, you know, and it just starts to like, change you a bit. And it's not because I'm black only I think it would change. Anybody would read and would know nobody could walk. And just using 12 years slave last example, like, I went to the movie theater to see that. When it first. First came out and I was living in la, it was quiet as a mouse. Leaving that.
It was a beautiful film. It was quiet as a mouse. And it was just one man story.
And it was like not about feeling bad about yourself. It wasn't that. It was more like, oh, that. Just that one. Oh, okay. This was many people's stories, many people's experience. And if that is the case, then that means this, then that nobody. People don't want the pieces to be put together.
Right. Because once you put the pieces together, there's no going back. You just have to move forward.
[00:46:48] Speaker A: And then there's a sense of responsibility too. Like once, you know. You know. But then hopefully the love of Jesus then compels you to action.
To love your neighbors better and to.
Yeah. Carry out the gospel and all the things and expand your imago day to a lot more people than maybe you, you know, believed it.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: It was four. Yeah.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: Well, last question for you because of the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the listeners become the church to the people around them?
[00:47:19] Speaker B: It's basically a question that Jesus was asked. What is the greatest commandment?
Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. Then love your neighbor as yourself. And really dissecting loving your neighbor as yourself is the way that I think we will become the church. And not just saying that as a cliche, quite literally internalizing.
What does that mean?
[00:47:44] Speaker A: Yeah, and let's live it out actually, with action.
[00:47:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much. This has been great. We will link up your book. Is there anything else that you want to let people know, like where to find you or anything like that?
[00:47:56] Speaker B: You can find me on Instagram at christyadams.
I'm on threads now. Okay. Removed myself from Twitter a while ago and on Facebook, but you can just Google and any of the information, any of the books. I have a book called Parable the Brown Girl and another book called Unbossed How Black Girls Are Leading the Way. And. And those are online as well. And lastly, I have a book coming out in 2027 and we haven't really sort of like, I shouldn't forget about it, but.
But it's a devotional for young girls and I think the title is being worked on right now, but worked on it with Our Daily Bread.
[00:48:37] Speaker A: Oh, we love our daily bread. We've had our school Barry on. He's a Friend lots of times. Who else would. Javier over there. I love that.
That's awesome.
[00:48:47] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: But we will look forward to that.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: I know that you are open to learning because you're here. And I'm so grateful that you trust me enough to keep listening to Christy and the other people that I bring on as they share their lived experiences. One resource that I do want to direct you to is what Lies between us by Dr. Lucretia Berry. It's an educational course focused on racial healing that practically teaches through historical, political, and societal lenses to understand how race and racism actually operate in our society. We went through it as a church a few years ago, and it opened my eyes to not only how our systems have been built and sustained, but also showed how much I really did not know. Not just because I forgot it from, like, middle school social studies, but because there are foundational concepts like race and culture that we just were not taught. There's a link in the show notes, so you can scroll down to learn more about it. You can also check out Christy or Dr. Lucretia Berry's books and Dr. Barry's episode on Becoming Church as well. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
