Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Kevin Wilson. He is also known, however, as the CEO of Chai.
As someone who didn't grow up in American Christianity and then had some questions when he was introduced to it, Kevin's here to help us understand the beauty and the complexity of our cultures and how they are important to our faith.
Kevin Wilson, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Ah, so good to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation, Kristen. Pastor Kristin.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, just. Kristen is fine.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Okay. No worries.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: We are not formal over here pretty much at all.
So I am so excited to talk to you, and we're going to get into, you know, you are known as the Chai guy or the CEO of Chai and all of these things, but I want to do a little, like, quick fire Q and A just to kind of let people get to know you a little bit who might not already. So this is probably an obvious one, but I got to ask, coffee or chai?
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, it's. It's chai.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Is it ever coffee?
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. That's a good question. Because it's very seasonal for me, so that sometimes, you know, because of my. My default setting is, is chai, and my preference for that. But. But different times during the year. Like, I. I prefer specific beverage, like coffee beverages. You know, right now, it's like iced Americano season for me. I know. It's like I'm. I'm the one in the middle of winter. The middle of winter. Like, I'm. I'm weird like that. In the middle of winter, it can be, you know, snowing outside like crazy.
But I would still prefer, like, an iced Americano.
Yeah, I know. It's. Yeah. So, yeah, I do prefer coffee from time to time, for sure. Okay.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: All right, Good to know. All right. Shoes on or off in the house?
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Oh, definitely off. Oh, my goodness.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Is that a cultural thing?
[00:02:09] Speaker A: I. I think it's for sure, determined.
Influenced a lot of. From my cultural background, but also, like, why would you have shoes in the house? Like, I think it's just.
I mean, I don't know if people. Do people actually have shoes in the house? Like, is that a. Is that a thing?
[00:02:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Like, we don't. I don't care at my house. And I think part of it is. And I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna tell you exactly why, Kevin? Because for me, when I go to someone's house, if I'm invited somewhere, my shoes are part of my outfit.
So then to have to take off my shoes as I'm like, I built this whole outfit around this accessory.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Makes sense. Makes sense.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: So, you know, I'm also not a super germaphobe.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. So you're not. You said you're not.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: I'm not.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, same, same.
Yeah. So I do think that, like, I'm not going to be completely anti shoes. I feel like if. I think that if. If there are, like, house shoes which are only worn in the house. Yes.
I will make a concession about that. So I, you know, that's that. Yeah.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: But I do have some shoes. My slippers are pretty much just for comfort more than anything.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: More than anything. Yeah, I know. I have some of those as well. So that's good.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Perfect. All right. Spicy food. Love it or like, fear it?
[00:03:22] Speaker A: I don't fear spicy food, but I also don't, like, love it as. As much as people expect me to because of. Again, for whatever reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have a fear. Yeah. Because sometimes, you know, the. The.
Some spicy foods that I've tried, like, they've. The two. The spice levels really overwhelm the flavors of the food sometimes for me. So I'm just like, ah, man, you know, I wish this was a little less spicy so that I can actually enjoy all the. All the flavors. So I don't fear it, but I don't, like, love it. I don't want. I don't expect every single food that I consume to be spicy.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Let's make some balance here.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah, some balance. Yeah.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Yeah. All right, well, when you have a recipe, do you measure or is it just, like, made with vibes?
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Oof.
Yeah. I think I'm more of a measure by the hot.
Yeah. It's the ancestral measuring method, so that's kind of what I do. Yeah, that's my default setting. But if I'm making something that is new and that is food from a different culture, then. And then it requires me to be precise. Like, for example, baking. Like, I can't.
[00:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: It's very hard to. To eyeball, like, a baking situation. So I'm down to like, okay, how much? How many ounces? How many pounds? How many teaspoons? Yeah. So when it comes to baking, definitely I'm more of a recipe guy, especially when I do it for the first two to three times. But if it's cooking related, I Think I take a little bit more.
I take more liberties.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's pretty standard. What about chai? Surely you don't have, like, an exact recipe for that.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: I haven't measured chai in, like, years because for me at this point, it's like I've made. I think I've literally made thousands of cups at this point, you know, either for myself or for, you know, groups and experiences to the point where now it's a matter of like, okay, I can. I can eyeball it and see. Okay, I can. Yeah. So there's very little.
I'm trying to think of the last time I measured. It's been a while.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: You've got the expertise for that.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Even for, like, you know, even if I make it 400, you know, 200 people, I still don't measure. Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: It's.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Well, we're going to get into the spirituality of chai in a second, but before we do that, just kind of let us know, like, what has faith looked like for you and how has it changed over the years?
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah, faith.
So I grew up in.
Is in a Seventh Day Adventist Christian household.
My parents, they.
They did not have a Christian background, but they became Christian in their early adulthood. My mom had a Hindu background. My. My dad was nominal Catholic. And so, yeah, they became Adventist Christians. So Adventism, for those who are, you know, new to this. And it's a. It's a specific denomination within the Protestant Christian tradition. It's.
Yeah, it's a. Yeah. So we would definitely.
So we were. We are definitely Christian in the sense, like, we agree with almost all of the main fundamental Christian doctrines and beliefs, historically speaking, and with some core theological differences in some areas.
So anyhow, so that's the house that I grew up in. So by the time I was born, I didn't necessarily have a choice. I said, hey, Christians, Adventists. Not just, not necessarily. Not just by faith identity, but also because it just became part of my culture.
Because growing up in South Asia as a Christian, your culture and your religion, your ethnicity, they're all inextricably connected. They're all one and the same. So.
And add to that family values. So it was just like a package and we didn't get a choice to, like, really argue with it, but they.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: Didn'T seem like at odds with each other. It just all kind of melded together.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah. For the. For at least still.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: For a while.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: For a while, at least. For a while, at least. I would say till about 17, 18 years old, because I grew up in Sri Lanka. I was born and raised in Sri Lanka, and I lived there till I was 12. Then I moved to the Middle East. I lived in a country called Oman during my high school years. And again during all that experience, I didn't. I didn't.
I didn't have the opportunity or the need to question my faith identity.
But that changed when I came to the States when I was 18. So I came to the United States in October 28, 2008, and for college, for higher ed. And I wanted to be a pastor. Like, I felt this calling to be in ministry, in pastoral ministry, to be more specific.
And so that's when I started to really, you know, question and revisit the assumptions of my faith.
And what really prompted some of those questions was just me doing a reflection paper for the first time in my life. So I remember being in class. Hermeneutics. Hermeneutics. For those of you again, new to this conversation is this study, the Art and Science of Interpretation of Biblical Interpretation. And so I remember my professor telling me, hey, so we looked at John chapter three. Okay, I want you to read it. And based on the. Based on some of the principles that we've talked about, hermeneutical principles, I want you to write your own reflection paper. And I remember asking my professor, hey, what is. What is a reflection paper? Also, a reflection paper is essentially you coming up with your own interpretation based on these principles. And so I was shocked by this because I grew up. My grew up thinking that faith was something that was offered to me, and I have to accept it at face value. And I don't. I don't get a chance to really wrestle with it or fight with it. So this was the first time in my life where I realized, wait, I can actually have a dialogue. I have an internal conversation with things of God and Scripture and so forth. And so after that, it was just a can of worms was just open because then I started to really think through things. And then. And that was really fun up until my sophomore year where I had so many questions and very little answers to some of those questions from some of the people that I trusted. And so I decided quietly to quit faith. So, you know, there was a phase where I was like, oh, I think I would. I would say I define myself or describe myself as an agnostic. Okay, that was during. In theology school, you know, in Bible school. And.
And so after that, I. I started to really, really explore faith and ask all the questions. And I went on a research, a deep dive, looking at the resurrection accounts, looking at the veracity of scripture, all of these different things.
And I came to a point where I was like, you know what? I think there's something to this Jesus person.
Because for me, Jesus became the most central and most compelling figure. And the reason for why even faith existed. And up until that point, it was all about kind of an ascent to some theological propositions.
But then Jesus became so central. And so I was like, I didn't want to lose Jesus. And I was like, man, I want to follow this figure, this person, even if you didn't exist, I'm going to follow his teachings and his way. And so that's when I started to, I would say, maybe reconstruct my faith anew. And I've been going on this journey ever since. Yeah.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: In the Seventh Day Adventist tradition, because I'm not super familiar with it. Is Jesus the central figure?
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Okay. So very similar, as in, Jesus was not newly introduced to you necessarily, but maybe in a new way.
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
At least the way that Christianity was communicated to me or taught to me during my developmental years was that Jesus is important. Jesus is very, very important. But you have to believe this, these, these, these things in order for you to.
In order for your belief in Jesus to be verified. Yeah. But that whole thing flipped.
And then I started to really ask the questions, okay, how central is Jesus in my faith tradition? And it turns out, historically and culturally and theologically, Jesus is the. The most important figure within our moments. I was like, okay, this is good. So let's just start there and then slowly start to kind of create this orbit of theology around, or doctrines around the centrality of Jesus.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
Was there a specific thing in your faith that you thought you had to believe that you've kind of let go.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Just letting go of certainty as an index or a main priority for you to be a person of faith? Yeah, I think I had to let go of that. And that felt so liberating.
Yeah. Because, you know, growing up, you know that certainty was the main thing. Like, you need to know why you believe what you believe, and it has to. And also you need to know why it's right.
So not just for you to know that this is important, but also for you to communicate to other people that this is important. So certainty was a virtue.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And not just that you know it, but that you are also certain in your rightness.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Correct.
Yeah. And in your theological particularity, like, you can't just say that you're a Christian, but you have to say, like, why you're a Seventh Day Adventist Christian. So therefore you need to know exactly the verses and the texts. And so certainty was so important.
But yeah, I think it was. A couple of things had happened in my life where it's like, no, maybe certainty is not the most important thing. Maybe confidence is so I. So prioritizing confidence over certainty and confidence in this sense is like saying, you know what, I don't know everything that I need to know about this one thing, but I am confident about these few things that I know and I'm willing to stand on this for the foreseeable future.
So replacing confidence with certainty was helpful moving forward.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Well, for people that are listening, that are still kind of in that the transition of thought, you know, it's like, it's not necessarily that you let go of stuff, but now you can be so confident in what you do know or believe, that you can also be confident in what is uncertain because you're like, I'm, I'm so confident in who God is and who Jesus is and what his teachings were about that. Okay, I can now actually still be confident in saying, I don't know how this works and I can't explain this thing, but that's okay.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's being comfortable with the liminal space. Right. It's being comfortable with uncertainty. Right. So I'm reminded of this philosopher, Paul Ricoeur, who is a hermeneutical philosopher. He was a Christian who's Catholic, but he did a lot of, he wrote a lot of external facing work.
In other words, he wanted to contextualize Christianity and theology to a non believing audience.
And so his priority was not conversion or proselytization. His priority was, hey, I just want to explore these questions. And so in his book the Symbolism of Evil, he talks about these three stages of religious, of faith, deconstruction or reconstruction called the first naivety and the, and the second naivety and the third. Oh, sorry, the first naivety, the desert of criticism and the second naivety.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: So essentially he basically says like, to put it all in like a, in a way that makes sense, at least to me, is that everybody who is a person of faith goes through the first naivety, which is basically they're, they're, they're thinking through religion and faith and theology as something that was given to them at face value. And so they're so like the Bible stories and all these different things are like, oh, this is great. So theology is received as a gift. And so that could be akin to like maybe a childhood faith. Nothing Wrong with that. But this is how, you know, that's that first stage. However things happen in somebody's life that causes them to go into what he calls the desert of criticism, where now you're questioning, maybe it's a. Maybe it's the death of a loved one, maybe it's grief, maybe it's unanswered questions.
Every single human being, every single person, whether they are religious or non religious, will go through a stage of reconstruction. It's not a matter of if you think everyone will.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Everyone, even the people that are like, doubling down and going like, no, I know for certain what I believe. You think eventually they'll hit their point.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: So this is interesting that you mentioned that. So he says that after they go through this stage, the people who go through this have one of two responses.
One response would be to go into the second naivety, which is maybe. Which is for him a place where it's a new faith, It's a new type of.
It's a new framework of understanding reality. But they're still holding on to certain tenets of their faith.
But it's new. It's different from the first naivety.
But then there are other people. When faced with challenges to their faith, they double down and they go back to their first naivety because it's safe.
Because it's like, hey, I don't want to let go of this. These are the, these are the theology, these are the faith. These are the beliefs that, that contributed to my sense of being, my, my income sources, my economies, all these different things. So longing, my belonging, my communities. So I don't. It's too much of a cost. I cannot let go of this, this first naivety. So I'm going to double down.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: On the things that, of my childhood, my faith upbringing, all the things that give me my sense of significance and belonging. Like, like you said.
So that's what. And he says this is what usually happens. And, and for those who go through that second naivety, you. They said you, you have to be comfortable with the, with this discomfort. You got to be comfortable with, like, not knowing or not having vocabulary or language to express, explain or express what you're going through.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: But it can be an adventurous and a terrifying place.
[00:18:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of our listeners have experienced that and are trying to, like, find their place in that second naivete because, yeah, it is, it's like. But then also we love Jesus more and we understand how God made us to be more deeply. And it really. There is a freedom like you mentioned, into being able to, like, move through, you know, these phases.
So thank you for sharing that.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Well, Kevin, listen, if I were to tell people Kevin Wilson is coming on becoming church, some of them would know who you are, and some of them would be like, who? But the second that I say the Chai guy or the CEO of Chai, they're like, oh, my gosh, I love him.
So explain to us why this tea is so important to you.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow.
So, you know, like, as I mentioned before, I grew up in Sri Lanka, and Sri Lanka is a small island not bordering India, which is very important. We have to distinguish ourselves from our Indian siblings, you know? But anyhow, so we grew up. I grew up there, and tea is such a foundational part of our life.
I remember my dad. You know, my earliest memory of my dad was him making a cup of tea for us.
And so tea was at the nexus and is continues to be at the nexus of culture and family and religion.
It's kind of a social adhesive, a social lubricant in our cultures. You don't want to have any conversations, any important conversations without having a cup of tea. And tea is. Can be used to humanize somebody or dehumanize somebody.
That's. It's. That's a whole different conversation.
We can even talk, even. We can dig into it if you want to. However, the point was tea was. It was so important. It's a symbol of my belongings. It was everything. Everything that I believed in was encapsulated in a cup of. Cup of tea. Okay. So when I came to the United States, this was the first time where I left everything that I.
That I knew to be fundamental, core to my being. You know, my family, my friends, all that stuff. And so I was, like, longing for a sense of home and belonging. And so I decided, you know what? I'm gonna just start making tea for myself. And so the tea became, like, a core part of my. My daily existence. It became. That's why it became a spiritual thing for me, because it's like, it connected me to my roots in such a core, tangible, visceral way.
And then people start to ask me, like, hey, oh, man, can you make me cup of tea? And so I would make people tea. And so tea became a symbol of hospitality, because that's one of the things that I valued. And.
But the CEO of Chai thing happened when in. I think it was April 2020. So it's pandemic. Yep. And everybody was on, you know, inside.
And one of My, Some of my youth from my church. I was a youth pastor in San Diego at the time. And they say, hey, you know, pastor came in the Tick Tock, you know, it was a big thing. Now do you want to do stuff on Tick Tock? It's like, no, what are you talking about, TikTok? I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, dance and this and that.
[00:21:15] Speaker B: Right?
[00:21:15] Speaker A: You know, that's your, that's your gifting. That's your calling. That's not, not mine. You know, I said, no, no, just, just go check it out. And so I checked it out. I was like, wow, this is amazing. And so I started to just, you know, make devotional content, you know, stuff like this. I'm talking about faith, culture, all that stuff. But then I decided, hey, you know what, let me just record or document my child making process, put it online, no expectations whatsoever, just put it up.
And it was just a tutorial. It was just a tutorial of how to make chai. That thing went viral. I mean, my first time going viral, immediately it racked up, you know, 2, 300,000 views in less than 24 hours and never experienced anything like that ever in my life.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: And so, but then people start to ask all these questions about chai and tea and. And so started to answer questions really, and started, you know, each question was a video. And over time, we had a community of about 100,000 people. I was like, man, this is insane. And this is insane. And then people started to really notice something that's like, wait, are you, are you a pastor? Are you a Christian?
It was mostly.
I don't know how they, how I, I don't know how people noticed that. Maybe it was just my demeanor or how I talked or whatever. And then I started to share more stuff about faith and being a Christian and. Yeah, and when, you know, when, when we started to really, especially in America when, you know, George Floyd happened and there was, there were, there were things that people, things were getting filmed and people are talking about having awareness to the plight of black brothers and sisters, siblings, and we were just like, man, there's a lot going on here. And so I started to use tea and chai as a way to communicate my thoughts on justice and inclusion. And I didn't have words, I just had stories. You know, I shared stuff from my experience as a Sri Lankan, as a Tamil, Sri Lankan, you know, as a minority person, in growing up in Sri Lanka was experienced things like racism, prejudice and all these different Things I started to use that as a way to kind of shed more light on what's. What could be happening in the country. So I didn't want to be this political commentator or anything like that. But people start to resonate with what I was saying and the justice discussions. And so the questions start to roll in even more like how do we talk about this and this and that? So. Yeah. And so over time we had this community of like this justice loving, culturally conscious, meaning forward purpose driven humans who just want to have a conversation or a cup of te. Cup of Chai. And so CEO of Chai was just a self. It's a. It's a moniker that I just kind of adopted for myself because there was a time where everybody wanted to be a CEO of something and take back in 2020. It was like a fad. So like, okay, fine, I don't. CEO of Chai, maybe. And so I just put it there and just became a thing.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And now you're Cross Culture Kev, right? Isn't that your current handle?
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's Cross Culture Kev, which is interesting because it wasn't Cross Culture Kevin, all the time. I think you found out about me when I was Cross Culture Kev, but before that I was Cross Culture Christian.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: And there was a whole story behind the rebrand, I think the basic. I started rebrand in 2017, to be honest with you, in 2017 when there was a regime change in the United States, I started really revisit. Like what do I. What does that even mean to be Christian?
[00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And so in your like deconstruction phase then.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a second deconstruction phase. Yes, definitely A second or third. I don't know. You know, it was just good. This whole thing happens in cycles.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Whenever something happens in. In the country and Christianity is part of that. Like I, again, it's. It just forces me to really think about like, okay, do I think that's healthy? It's so healthy.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: It is, yeah.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And so that's what happened. And I decided, you know what? I think the word Christian has a lot of baggage right now. I'm still rediscovering what this actually means. So I want to rebrand to Cross Culture Kev, because it's going to give me more latitude to talk about other things, including Christianity, if I want.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: So you give me an opportunity to redefine or rebrand what I think Christianity means.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And we need more of that. So thank you for still including that.
In your life, topics of conversation I wanted to have you on to talk about culture because I think that there are a lot of people listening who maybe are white like me and think that they don't have culture because we look at our lives, some of us in America. I grew up in, like, Midwest, you know, middle America, in a white family, in a white neighborhood and a white school and a white church.
And so I think a lot of people say they don't have a culture, but I think that's also not true. So have you, have you noticed that? Like, have you come across that? And why do you think people believe that their culture doesn't exist?
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good question. So there's so many different. We need to start with the definitions of culture, right? Like, what do we even mean when we talk about culture? And there's so much. If you just Google, like, definitions of culture, you're gonna find a bunch of different definitions.
As of right now, my kind of working definition of culture is that it's. It's a shared system of assumptions, beliefs, values, feelings, and actions that.
That influences one's response to reality.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:26:34] Speaker A: So that's. It's a, it's a. It's a system. It's an ecosystem of all these different things.
So one of the reasons why I think that people feel like, oh, they don't have a culture is because of a conflation between culture and ethnicity.
They think, oh, yeah, I'm not, you know, a South Asian or someone who's non white, so therefore I don't have a culture. Because they've conflated culture with ethnicity or culture with race or culture with that. No, but if you take a broader view of what culture is that it's a, it's a, it's a hidden kind of framework, a system of beliefs, values, feelings, assumptions, all these different things that's shared by a group, a group that you belong to not just because of your ethnicity, but because of, say, your political views or because of your religious views or because of your views on animals or whatever it is, how you think about family, all these different things, that's culture.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:27:27] Speaker A: So it's, it's broader than what people think. So when you think about it that way, then every single person has a culture. Right, right. And so particularly to, you know, for white, white, you know, whites, Caucasian, siblings, and it's, again, I don't want to broad brush, everybody has their own different thing, but I think one of the reasons they feel like that is because, you know, you know, I don't. You know, they seem so colorful and this and that. And so you compare your existence to somebody else's existence, and therefore you say, yeah, that happens quite often. And yeah, you. I mean, you clearly have a culture. Like, how do you. How do you understand your cultural background? I'm curious.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Yeah. But I didn't think I did for a long time. Like, I was one of those people that was like, I'm just boring white American. Like, there's nothing special. There's no culture. And so I had to, like you were saying, realize that it's tradition, it's belief, it's more than just my race, but it's my family of origin. It is then political view, even, like you mentioned at the top of the conversation. Right. Like, it's not just your family, it's also where you live. It's also what you believe. There's so many things that I think can then. Can. Can go into that.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: What do you think happens when that culture goes unnamed?
Like, do you think there's a danger or like a power in people kind of living with that ideology of not acknowledging their culture?
[00:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah, I think so.
I think essentializing can be an act of violence.
So what do I mean by that? Right. So when you say. Or when anybody says, oh, that group, that person is such and such a person because of such and such a thing, essentializing, you're taking one thing about your understanding or your assumption about a group. Yeah. And you're in. You're attributing that to one person.
Because that's your. Because that's your way of, you know, categorizing them. Because categorizing somebody is safe because you can put them in a box. And so. And also because when. After you put them in a box, then you can actually interact with them on your own terms, it can be an act of violence because now you're actually reducing the complexity of their humanity to one thing. And one subjective thing based on your cultural background, based on it can be an act of violence. Because if you. If you say that you don't have a culture, then then one might think that they have the.
They have the luxury of, you know, being neutral.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: You know, just saying, oh, look at that. And also when you. When somebody.
I think it's important to understand, like, the. The movement of power dynamics in a certain situation. If somebody says, like, oh, I don't. I don't have this, or that they've not had, typically that means that it could mean that they probably have not had an opportunity to revisit the uniqueness, their particularity. And more often than not, you visit the things that are normative to you in the presence of an other, in the presence of conflict. There's this beautiful proverb from the continent of Africa, says that the fish knows the beauty of water once it's outside of it.
A fish knows the beauty of water once outside. In other words, one begins to understand or appreciate, revisit, celebrate, or even criticize or critique their own cultural understanding when they are in the presence of an other, when they're in the presence of somebody who is not like them, doesn't believe like them, think like them, talk like them.
So if you've lived in an area where everybody thinks and acts and believes and votes and loves and lives like you, you don't necessarily have the opportunity to revisit what you think you know, why you believe what you believe. It's like using that same illustration of the fish. Right. And so this is from David Foster Wallace, and he's American author and amazing. He had an amazing keynote speech in 2005 in Kenyan College. Just look up David Foster Wallace, 2005 Kenyan College graduation speech.
And I think it's titled, what is water?
What is water? So again, so he says, he shares. He starts this talk with this story of two fish in a fishbowl. And one fish is talking to the other fish, is like, hey, bro, how's the water?
And the other fish is like, what the hell is water?
There ate two fish in one fishbowl, and they're asking about the water. It's like, what are you talking about? And the whole point is like, look, everybody has a water. Yeah, but once you leave. But it's only once you leave the water into another body of whatever with its oil or chai or coffee, then you're like, wait a second, I miss water.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: This is different, right?
[00:32:48] Speaker A: This is different, right?
[00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:50] Speaker A: So, yeah, that can be really bad when you. When you say, oh, I don't have culture. No, you definitely do. You definitely do have a culture. And if you want to know more about your culture, talk to somebody who is different than you.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Relate. Get to know somebody else who you know with a different cultural background and get to know. And then that helps you understand more about what you think about yourself.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: And I don't think it's always that clear. Right. Like when we're in the context of other people or another culture where we're having to ask questions and kind of face what we believe I don't think it's as obvious as, like, oh, well, this must be my culture. I think instead, and I will speak for white Americans, being one myself, I think that there's a posture of defensiveness, because what happens is it pops up that way. Right. Like, that's how it kind of comes to light where to say that I don't have culture gives me a deniability of things of my culture that maybe I don't agree with or I don't want to represent me. And so if I can pretend that that culture is not attached to me, then I have deniability. Right. Like, then that has nothing to do with me. And so I think a lot of times that shows up as defensiveness of, like, wait, why are having to admit that this is actually our culture? Does that make sense?
[00:34:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And a question of that. Yeah, that's so interesting.
And I wonder for you, and this is a question for you, Kristen, is how, in what ways have you dealt with the.
Maybe an apparent.
The knee jerk kind of defensiveness that you might have felt?
[00:34:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:30] Speaker A: Especially in the face of critique and criticism.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I had to get curious, I think was my biggest thing accepting first of all, the things that I saw within me that I did not like.
And in not getting defensive and not saying, no, this doesn't apply to me, but actually instead asking how could this apply to me in a way that I've chosen not to look at or have not been aware of? And so, yeah, Kevin, I just started listening to other people, reading people from diverse cultures. I mean, even this podcast, I'm so intentional on having a diverse group of people, ethnically, culturally, race, but also even just like, diversity of thought, because I never want somebody to come to me and hear, okay, this is the exact thing that I need to believe about this Bible verse or know about God or whatever. But I would rather help people because it was my experience, I would rather help people to think about what they believe and why and, like, help them to think about their thinking.
And so it was really curiosity that fought defensiveness. You know, in my case.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: That's so beautiful.
And how.
How have you been able to inspire, educate other. Other people within, you know, other. Other white siblings who probably have had maybe the same upbringing. It could. It has you two to be more curious. Yeah.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Well, like I said, this, hopefully this podcast is doing that or, you know, using my social media platform, posting sermon clips, posting different things, speaking up over the last couple of years, the last probably five years, I guess, since the pandemic on social justice issues.
And also Kevin, realizing that there are people that God is not going to reach through me.
And I think that's been difficult, especially, you know, the people that are closest to us or that we think will understand us the best.
I find that's not always the case.
And so sometimes I just feel like God really reminds me, like, listen, you're planting seeds, but you are not going to be the one that sees this come to harvest. And so just kind of entrusting God then with like, all right, I really wish these people were a little further along, you know, and then just kind of praying that whatever I hope I'm doing for all of the listeners. Right. That there would be someone else, there would be some other voice that would find their ears that would make sense to them, that God would be able to speak through.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
Something that I see happening a lot in. Especially when you have these cross cultural conversations.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:26] Speaker A: And especially in, especially when a person or group is.
They're heightened to new sense of awareness. They're like, oh my goodness, okay. There is, there are other ways of understanding these things. There's different ways of living reality. There's different ways of understanding the Bible. Different is. There's two extremes that I think people sometimes go to. And I think both extremes are not super healthy, especially within a Christian context. Okay. On one extreme is the idolization of culture.
[00:37:54] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Where all the essentializing of culture in that when people talk about cultural awareness, understanding culture or one or one particular aspect of culture becomes the main kind of hermeneutical principle or the fundamental principle that becomes a nucleus to understand everything else. It's like culture. You cannot, like, don't, don't criticize this. This is super important. This is sacred. This is to the point where every single thing is secondary to that thing.
Again, we're talking about within the biblical concept, within the biblical kind of framework. Theology framework. Exactly. Thank you.
So idolization of culture, you're essentially now replacing God with your culture and that. That happens quite a bit. Especially in non white cultures where, you know, I can speak for my ethnic, my background too. Like where the south, if you're talking about South Asian Christians, the South Asian becomes the main way, the main or the fundamental lens through which you understand or interpret everything else.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:06] Speaker A: And you replace South Asian with anything else. This principle still applies. So the idolization of culture becomes another kind of kind of altar, like a golden calf, you know, because the pendulum has swung. It's like, oh, you know, my culture has been, you know, vilified My culture has been, you know, I've been a minority for such a long time. And so the pendulum swings to the other direction where it's like, it's everything now.
Watch out. Like, I think this is especially, I'm speaking for, speaking to people who are maybe non white in perspective, non dominant cultures.
And you identify yourself, you're comfortable, identify yourself as a Christian. Idolization of culture. The other extreme to avoid, I think, is the demonization of culture where you're like, oh, culture bad. Culture does not. It doesn't matter. What you need is Christ.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: What you need is God. What you need is theology. What you need is Bible. Don't bring the race thing into this. Don't bring the culture thing into this. Don't dei, what are you talking about? What you need is faith and spirituality and gospel and time with God in prayer. That's really what you don't bring. All these other stuff.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And it just ignores the humanity. It ignores the imago DEI of all of these people and the diversity that God intentionally created.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: 100%. 100%. Yeah. And when you. And yeah. And like how, especially for somebody who thinks like, like the Bible is boring. Okay, give me a practical example of this thing. You think like, oh, the Bible's boring. This story is. Ah, no, but when you look at certain stories from the perspective of the culture, the cultural context of the person who's writing it or the narrator, then things become so, so, so, so, so interesting. For example, give you a really quick example.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: The story of the parable of the prodigal son, right? I would say the parable of the prodigal Father, like that's a different, maybe a different way of understanding that.
Anyhow, there's a scene in that story, this is In Luke, chapter 15, I believe, where the Father sees the son who was lost, and the Father runs towards the Son. And the word there is filled with compassion. The word splagnitsomai. And the word that says it comes from your innards, your bowels. It's like you miss that person so much that it makes you throw up. Like that. That is though. That's the word that's like. So this Father is filled with so much that he runs.
This is so. And if you read that as somebody who's like, who says, hey, culture doesn't matter, whatever. What's really important is you say, oh, the Father is so, he's so compassionate, he's so kind. He loves you. God loves you, therefore God loves you. Please come, come to God.
Interpretation Works, sure, sure. But if you now bring in the cultural context to it, the. In order for a Middle Eastern male.
First of all, Middle Eastern males do not run.
I grew up in Oman, and Omanis, you know, the Middle east, they wear these long dish dashas, like these long kind of robes.
I've never seen an Omani run for anything.
You know, growing up, unless it's like an absolute, absolute emergency, you don't. You don't run. Because in order for you to run, what do you have to do? You have to lift up the rope to your knees and then you have to run. Otherwise you'll trip and fall.
Well, according to some commentators, especially in that cultural context, an older, rich, wealthy, affluent male will never, ever do this because to expose their shins as an act of disgrace and dishonor.
So when you do that, you're essentially saying, silently saying to everybody else, hey, there's no hierarchy between you and me. I'm actually less than you or even at your level, because slaves and peasants and people from the lower class, they don't. They show their shins and their feet and this and that.
So he had to literally dishonor himself in public, in full view, everybody, in order for him to go to the sun.
Now you see how culture now makes a huge difference when you bring in the honor and shame context to understand. Understanding the scripture.
It's beautiful. So again, to summarize, the idolization of culture and the demonization of culture. So what's the correct response, Kevin? I don't know.
That's the work of the Holy Spirit. Like, it's awareness. And he. He'll help you, you know, go through that. Yeah.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: So, yeah, what is. What is maybe not the correct response? What's a good place to start for people that are like, no, I do want to grow in cultural awareness. And I know you said, you know, for them to get in context or in relationship with people. Not like them, but is there an easy, like, yeah, first step.
[00:43:59] Speaker A: Who are you. Who are you talking to right now? Are we talking to people who are Christian? Are we talking to people who are, you know, who have.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: We're talking to people. Listen, let me tell you about people who listen to this show.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: Okay, go ahead.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: They're going to.
Some of them faithfully are in church every single Sunday.
Some of them. This is their church. They listen to this conversation because they've deconstructed. There may be in that second naivety, but they're not there yet. They're still working it out. They're in any Level of deconstruction, reconstruction, they're not sure they've walked away. But I would say the common thread is that all of them have some tether to Jesus or some, something that's still tethering them to faith.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. Okay, that, that's, that's helpful. That's instructive. I would say take out your phone and look at the last 10 to 20 text messages that you've sent to people.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:45:01] Speaker A: Who are they?
Do a quick analysis of their theology.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Their culture, their background.
Are they different than you?
Are they similar to you?
Look back a little bit more. Who are the people are you talking to, connecting with on a regular basis?
If, you know, do a quick analysis. If more than 60 to 70% of the people that you talk to on a regular basis are people who think like you, act like you live like you walk, like you talk like you believe like you love, like you live like you diversify your con conversations. Yeah, straight up. That's like. Because here's the thing, here's the thing, and I'm just being very blunt with you. We can talk all day long about how we can be inclusive, how we can be, you know, justice oriented people and this and that. I usually just look at your texts, look at the phone calls that you've made in the last week, and that will reflect your actual values.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: Take a step further.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: So good.
Literally no one's ever said that, but it is like the clearest. Yeah. You want to know who you're hanging out with? Look at your, look at who you're texting. You just blew my mind. And it seems so simple who you're texting.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: Then the other, the, the next level to this is who have you eaten with in the last week?
Who are the people that you have shared a cup with, shared a meal with?
I really, really, really think, and I'm fully convinced of this, that the dinner table is probably one of the best, if not the most effective locations to dismantle patriarchy and heresy and, and racism and any type of relational mechanisms that fracture us and fragment us.
When you eat with somebody, when you talk to them, and that's so, it is so simple. But that's probably why in the book of Revelation, towards the end of the Bible, Jesus says, hey, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice, let them invite me and I can eat with them. Because here's the thing. When you. In the Middle Eastern cultures and even in Oman and in the Bedouin culture, so these are nomadic Cultures in the east, when somebody passes through somebody, a tent, like a wanderer, desert wanderer, they passes through a tent, the person, the owner of the tent has to, they have to invite them over for a meal. They have to. There's no because if they don't, it is an act. It's absolute.
It's shaming the guest, it's shaming the other. And it also brings shame on their family.
[00:47:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Now when you eat with them, it's almost like you're saying we are now family, we are now blood, we are bonded together to the point where if anything would happen to you, I will be willing to give up my life to save yours.
[00:48:14] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:48:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
That was the context around food.
A really, really interesting exercise that you can do is to look at every single mention of food in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Just do a quick Bible study.
Maybe some of you listening to this later on in 2026, but this will be a fun little activity. You don't have to be religious or Christian to even do this. Just think of it, think of it. Think of the Bible as just a text and just do a food analysis and then notice the patterns, notice the power dynamics between the person who is providing the meal and the person who's receiving the meal. One of my friends has actually done research on this.
Who. Yeah, he's a businessiologist and he, he found out from very. His preliminary findings was that almost every single time food is mentioned in the Bible, it's either in the context of humanizing somebody or dehumanizing somebody. Food is never value neutral in Scripture.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: That's so interesting.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: It's always in the context of elevating somebody or hurting somebody, healing somebody or hurting somebody, putting somebody else up, putting somebody else down.
So now bringing it back to our conversations, if you really want to be a person, who wants to be a person, like, I want to know more about other cultures. I want to know that. Invite one person over for a meal. Yeah. And the thing is this, you don't have to. Now shut up, talk. Share your culture, share your things. And just because you share your doesn't mean that you're a bigot. Doesn't mean that you know it all. No, it's this dialogue, this interchange that happens. Happens because people from non dominant cultures also don't want to be patronized. They also don't want to be like, you know, tokenized. They're like, no, no, I do want to hear about you. That's why I asked you questions, because I would love to hear about you, too, because the pendulum has swung, can swing to the other, to the place where you sometimes, especially in dominant cultures, they're like, oh, oh, my gosh. Yeah, Racism exists. Oh, my gosh, Prejudice exists. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Wow. The people of color are going through something. Oh, my gosh, I hate being white. Like, I hate being. Oh, my God. Like, they go through this whole thing and, you know, go through, fine, fine, fine, fine, whatever, Right? But again, just slowly submit. And for those of you who follow God and follow Jesus, follow the way of Christ, submit that. Submit that tension to God and be like, hey, okay, Help me, Lord, to, you know, give me eyes to see.
See a new, you know, the.
My positionality in. In this place right now because I didn't have a choice in so many things. I don't have a choice in how I look and how I, you know. So please help me to be more open and curious about the other while also being grateful for the gifts and the privileges that you have given me.
[00:51:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well, like you said, it's relationship. I mean, you asked me earlier, right? Like, how did I do it? Or what have I done?
And that was one of the things was my kids were, like, little. I have two daughters, and they were little at the time, you know, when we were having, like, the big birthday parties and inviting. Not like, they weren't in elementary school yet. So we really were in control of, like, who are we inviting into our house?
And my husband and I, while we attended a very diverse church, that was one of the things that I realized when I'm making these, like, birthday, you know, invitation lists and whatever.
I was like, all this stuff that we say we believe in and we do is not actually reflected in our lived lives. And so it was as easy as, let me reach out to some of the other kids that they play with at preschool or from our neighborhood or whatever, not to consume their culture, not to, like, like you said, tokenize them, but to just start a relationship where, let me learn about you, you learn about me. We can learn from each other, you know. Yeah, all of that.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: Beautiful. So good.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Well, Kevin, last question for you is because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:52:09] Speaker A: This is common kind of description about church being, you know, it's not. It's. Church is not a museum for saints. It's a hospital for sinners. You know, probably some people have heard that, especially if you've grown up in the church, it's almost like saying, oh, it's the place where we get healed and this and that.
I don't think there's.
I see why people say what they say about those things, but they can be deficient, just like any other definitions that we use to describe the holy and the sacred.
My working definition for church is now it's a laboratory of reconciling love.
Yeah, it's a lab. I think church is a lab. A lab is where we get to experiment with different ways and techniques and. And theories and formulas of how to really bridge the gap between us and them.
[00:53:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:01] Speaker A: And us and God.
And church is a lab. It's this kind of gym, relational gym. And so when I ask people, hey, God, I want to be more patient, I want to be more loving. More often than not, then what happens or tends to happen is that God puts me in the company of somebody who is unloving or unlovable.
[00:53:22] Speaker B: Hard to love.
[00:53:22] Speaker A: Hard to love. It's like, oh, you asked for it. Here. Here they are. Ah, here is this person. You. This is your.
This is your prayer. So oftentimes it doesn't come like, you know, in like, this kind of metaphysical kind of awareness, whatever. No, it comes with the person.
Theology always has a name and a place.
Yeah, theology always has a name and a place. And if you don't. If it doesn't have a name and a place, it can be something else. It can. It can be a form of. It can be used as a form of. Of violence against somebody else. Because. Yeah, so. And so. So. So being church, I would say, you know, in. In this very polarized world right now, it's just like, how are you? How are you. How are you home to people? You know, like, how are you.
When people come to your presence, what do they experience?
Yeah, you know.
You know, if you were. If you were a dinner table, if you are a living room, you know, do people want to. People want to stick around.
[00:54:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:54:29] Speaker A: And they want to have a conversation. Would they feel rushed? Yeah.
Would they feel like they have to perform in front of you? Would they feel like they have to change their tastes in order for them to feel accepted by you?
I think these are the questions that I have to always keep asking myself, you know, as a Christian, but also as a pastor. Because as a pastor, first of all, as a Christian, we do not have the burden. And the blessing of Christianity is that we don't have the luxury of choosing who to love.
Yes, we don't. I wish we did, but we don't. It's unfortunate. Sometimes I wish we did.
But as pastors, you know, and you and I are colleagues in ministry, we don't. We, as much as we want to, we don't get the privilege of saying, oh no, you don't have access to grace.
You don't. Or you should. You know, you should have learned because of the things that you posted on Facebook the last week.
It's tough. It's so tough. And the way of Jesus. So being church, I think it means to I feel like being open to the other and also being a being a place where they feel seen and known and loved regardless of who they are, what they are and what they believe. Yeah.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: Well, when you said laboratory too, that did make me think of grace. So I'm glad that you said that because the lab is a place where you figure out what works and what doesn't. And so people are going to make mistakes. And I think that allows us to make mistakes as we're trying to figure things out along the way and then to also give that same grace to other people, knowing that they're also going to make mistakes along the way.
[00:56:09] Speaker A: Yeah. 100 yeah.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: Well, Kevin, thank you so much for being here. I'm gonna link up your TikTok and Instagram and all the things and then people can figure out about the Chai experience and going to Sri Lanka with you and all of that.
[00:56:21] Speaker A: But. Oh yeah, absolutely. For sure.
[00:56:23] Speaker B: Thank you so much for being here.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: Thank you, Kristen. I appreciate the conversation.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: I encourage you to follow along with Kevin to learn more about the way the context of the Middle Eastern culture really formed the stories that are found in Scripture. My pastor, Naeen Fazel at Mosaic Church has a similar background and I always find it so fascinating to hear the context that he brings when teaching scripture. His Middle Eastern perspective reflects and really speaks to the tradition, motivation, and the underlying meaning of things that we do. Just can't get when reading the Bible at face value. I'd love to have you join us at Mosaic to learn from him or you can always catch us online on our YouTube channel at Mosaic Church CLT. I've also linked up my favorite cultural background study Bible that will also provide the context that will enrich the stories that maybe are a little too familiar to you. Until next time. Thanks so much for listening. Share this episode with someone and keep becoming the church Church to the people around you.
