Joseph Yoo: Belong Before You Behave

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Joseph Yoo. Joseph is a Korean American Episcopal priest who pastors oddballs and outcasts out of an old bakery in Texas. You might also know Joseph from Instagram or TikTok, where he shares stories of faith in his real life. He's here today to talk about belonging, who it's for, and how we can find it. So if you know someone who feels overlooked or maybe even excluded from a church community, send them this episode right now and invite them to listen with you. All right, Joseph, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Thank you for having me. [00:00:57] Speaker B: So excited to have you. We're both in hats, but I'm in a winter hat because it's freezing here. [00:01:03] Speaker A: It's cold here, but not freezing yet. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Yes. You're in Texas, right? [00:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Will it get actually freezing? [00:01:09] Speaker A: It does, but our power grid shuts down when it gets cold, so we're not looking forward to it. Oh, no. [00:01:15] Speaker B: So do you. Are generators like a common thing? [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah, because I still haven't gotten the, like, why this is. But Texas has its own grid, so it doesn't share with a national grid, so, like. And it's not very well kept. So when it's super hot, we have a chance of outages. When it's super cold, we have a chance of outages. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:01:37] Speaker A: So any. Any weather, like, we understand that if it gets cold because it's not a normal thing, that we'll experience problem with electricity, but we don't understand why there's a problem when it's hot. Because it's Texas. [00:01:50] Speaker B: That's so funny. Yeah, it is Texas. You would think. Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm glad you're here. We'll pray for no outages while we're recording this episode. So first things first, before we really get into it, we both pastor churches called Mosaic. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Which is crazy. Okay, so we have to establish. We do have to establish, I guess. Whose wins. [00:02:09] Speaker A: Maybe. Isn't it. Isn't it Aaron McManus, the original mosaic. [00:02:12] Speaker B: That's what he is, if we're being honest. When was your mosaic established? [00:02:17] Speaker A: 2019. And honestly, it was. I did not choose the name. It was told that I have to pick this name. I have to keep the name because our church plant branched off of a nonprofit called Mosaic in Action. And we are unique Episcopal Church because most Episcopal Churches have names after saints or, you know, like Trinity or Holy Spirit. So we're the only. We're probably one of the few that doesn't have anything related to the Bible or a saint. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Interesting. So Mosaic is not necessarily a unique name, but in the Episcopal. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Tradition it is. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. We are just about to turn 20. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. [00:03:02] Speaker B: In 2006. Yeah. So we've been around a little bit. Not quite as long as Irwin's, but for a little while. Do people, like, confuse you all the time? [00:03:11] Speaker A: At first, the very, very beginning when we're talking, people kept asking, is this related to. To Mosaic in la? And I was like, see, this is why I don't want this name. But nowadays no one has brought up any other. There's actually another Mosaic Village church who I'm friends with and the pastor's Korean, so I'm like, how do we both end up in Houston and passing a church called Mosaic? So it's a common name, but no one has brought up Arabic madness since 2019. [00:03:42] Speaker B: That is funny. See, we get it all the time. There's also another Mosaic pastored by Mark Demaz, who's a friend of ours in Arkansas. So there's like mosaics everywhere. And I think where I get it mostly is like in our sermon clips on TikTok or on Instagram. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Oh, that makes sense. [00:03:55] Speaker B: And people will be like, oh, something, something mega church. I'm like, oh, no, no, no. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Our summer clips are so low res and so like, whatever. That no one's gonna mistake us for. In fact, I shared it with a church last Sunday. Someone commented on one of the sermon clips I posted and it's like, that's the ugliest church I've ever seen. So no one's gonna talk. We meet out of what used to be a bakery. We're in a strip mall, and we're just doing the best with our space. So, like, literally we have sound panels on the wall in between. And in between the two sound panels is across. And so it is. It is not aesthetically pleasing, nor does it look like a church church, but it works. [00:04:36] Speaker B: That's okay. Listen. Our church started in a AMC movie theater and we've met in multiple high schools. And then I don't even know what you would call the other building. Just like a community center before we got into our own building now. So. [00:04:48] Speaker A: Well, that. The thing I'm not complaining about is, you know, when you did the high school stuff in the community, like, there's a setup and a breakdown crew Like, And I'm like, we don't. We never had to do that. So I'm thankful we had this building from the beginning. So there was no. It's a. It's a building that's falling apart and the landlord doesn't want anything, but. But the money. But we don't have to set up and break down every single week. And I am grateful for that. [00:05:11] Speaker B: Praise Jesus. [00:05:12] Speaker A: Truly. Exactly. I don't know. That's one of the fastest burnouts of volunteers. And my brother did it for 10 years for. @ his church in Hawaii. And. And he was like, yeah. I was like, no, I'm just. I'm glad we never had to experience. [00:05:26] Speaker B: That. It is a special and unique, like, bonding. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Time. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah. For the people that. Like the team that I ended up setting, you know, setting up and tearing down with. But once you're out of it too, it's like, oh, please, God, never. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Again. [00:05:38] Speaker B: What? Well, Joseph, we obviously have to start with, like, a quick fire list of mosaic related. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Questions. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it just has to happen. Right. So here's what I want to know. If someone was going to make a mosaic of you, what would all the little pieces be made out. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Of? A lot. It would be, you know. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Family. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Okay. And a lot of pop. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Culture. Okay. Love. [00:06:03] Speaker A: It. And. And I think. I think that's about it. [00:06:08] Speaker B: Okay. It's pretty good. That's pretty. I would have, like, some coffee beans thrown in there, some. [00:06:12] Speaker A: Glitter. You're right. Coffee. How could I forget coffee? I haven't had coffee yet, so. Oh, this is gonna be interesting. I haven't had coffee. [00:06:20] Speaker B: Yet. Oh. See, I'm a straight. I, like, brush my teeth and head immediately to the coffee pot like one before my eyes are even open. All right. If God were to make a mosaic of your life, what piece would surprise people the. [00:06:32] Speaker A: Most? Oh, wow. I don't know. Because I'm fairly transparent as well. I stopped being transparent and start being translucent as possible. Okay. I don't think there's that. Well, you know, like, the people. I am from a space where I relate to people with their stories and their struggles and one, like, I have never been into apologetics. I've always was interested in my youth pastors and pastors. Okay, well, how does this affect you and how does this affect us? Right. So. But. But through that, you really get to learn about the pastor and whatnot. And so I've always appreciated. So I want to be as open as possible. There are things that people don't need to know. Right. Like there Are stories. There's. There, here's, here's your struggle. And I'll let people in about this much. And then these kind of things. Like, you know, a lot of times the struggles is with them, you know, like it's church struggle. Right? Like, I won't tell them. So. So being translucent as possible, I've been trying to be as open as possible. I'm pretty sure there's something that will be surprising. Just, you know, like, I, I do tend to be sarcastic and a little bit mean. In all my youth groups, the. The name that people gave me was Pastor Jerk. And I told people I earned that name. Okay, Joseph, at least you own it. Okay, so there's, there's that. That might be surprising. And yeah, like, sarcasm is my love language. And, and the sad thing is sarcasm does not travel on Internet. So like, when I comment something, I, I'm just like, I'm not going to comment anymore because how I would comment I see as a joke. No one else sees as a joke. And this is going to cause a whole thing. And I'm like, but maybe sarcastic and, and, and just a little bit of a mean streak in. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Me. Okay, well, holding on the sarcas meanness, you know, and you're right, sarcasm, I've had to learn the hard way myself. It doesn't translate in ministry all the time. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Right? Oh, yeah, no, it doesn't. [00:08:36] Speaker B: Either. Like, my crowd, my people, my church, they. They know me, they get my jokes, whatever. But in other places, it's. They do. They're like, wait, what did you just say? And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah. You didn't know. You don't know where I'm coming from in. [00:08:48] Speaker A: This. I was at a grocery store and I had to pick up a case of beer for my friend. I was going to his house and I forgot I was wearing my collar. So I put it on the, you know, conveyor belt. And the shopper in front of me, she looks at the beer, looks at me, looks at the beer and looks at me, looks at the beer and looks at me and clearly confused that, you know, this is Texas and she must have been evangelical. And I said, and she looked at me, she goes, aren't. She's like, aren't you a pastor? I'm like, yes. He's like, but you work at a church. I'm like, why do you think the beer's for? And she just, her face just dropped. And I was like. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Okay. I thought it was clearly never worked in ministry before. Oh, that's so Funny people, man. We could do a whole. We're not going to. We could do a whole episode on, like, the expectations that oh, my God. Side of ministry have of ministry leaders. [00:09:39] Speaker A: Wild. Do you get people thinking you make a lot of. [00:09:43] Speaker B: Money? I don't think so. I have a couple get that. [00:09:48] Speaker A: Often. I have enough to be like, hey, you guys, I'm fixing to show you my W2. Oh, my. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Gosh. No, I don't think. I know. I've never had that. [00:09:57] Speaker A: One. Yeah, because I think a lot of. And you know, we're in Houston, Joel Osteen's country, so I think a lot of things that people see with ministers are those televangelists. So I think there's this, like, underlying assumption that almost all pastors make that kind of money. I'm like, no, no, no, we. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Don'T. And guess What? I also tithe 10 or more actually percent of it back to my own. [00:10:18] Speaker A: Church. I know our treasurer is fairly new at this, and he's like, why do you keep giving money to the. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Church? And I was like, hi, my. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Guy. Because my. My parents instilled in me. He's like, but. And I was like, just don't worry about. [00:10:32] Speaker B: It. Yeah, well, we always just are like, we're not going to ask our people to do something that we won't ourselves do. So, like, it feels kind of weird that it's like, this is partly paying my salary, but also it's still generosity. It's generosity of heart and spirit, and we're supposed to do. [00:10:47] Speaker A: It. So I'm going to call out my Methodist colleagues. When I was going through ordination in California, we were sitting in this table, and there were six clergy of us fixing. We were just trying. Going through the ordination process, and we're having these deep discussions, and money came up, and five of these pastors, each of them came up with excuses not to give to the church. And I'm sitting there and like, I'm, you know, like, my parents were almost fanatic about what they do because my dad's a pastor, a Korean pastor at that. Okay. And I was like, you guys don't give at all to your church? And they're like, well, you know, we have loans. And I was like, I get that, but how are you going to stand in front of people and ask them to give when you're not willing to. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Give? [00:11:26] Speaker A: Exactly. And they're like, well. I'm like, there's no. Well, like, you're. Of course your church is going to struggle because you don't believe in this mission enough to contribute to. So. But I don't know if that's more of like a evangelical Korean thing and like the mainland denomination, people have slowly drifted away from that, but it was, it was. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Jarring. I don't know. I don't know. Well, good on you. For two mosaics. We both tie it back to our own churches. That's. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Great. That's. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Good. Something that I read on your church website, actually. You have a Rachel Haldevins quote, which she's one of my all time favorites. And he said, this is what God's kingdom is like. A bunch of outcasts and oddballs gathered at a table. Not because they are rich or worthy or good, but because they are hungry and because they said yes and there's always room for more. So tell me, Joseph, about your mosaic. Oddballs and outcasts. What do you love the most about. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Them? Yeah, so when we, when we were starting this church in 2019, we were trying to figure out what's. What separates us from every single church. And at that time there was like a new church plant popping up every three months or so because it's. It's Texas. Yeah. And we decided that, you know, this is complete marketing and branding strategy, which I know some people get really uncomfortable talking about when it comes to church. Mainland denomination people, the older generations, like, why is this mark saying God is enough? I'm like, yeah. But so we leaned on. There's only two churches in Pearland that are completely openly affirming and accepting that church. The other church is the one that helped us start panted us. So we leaned into that. And our first big things that we're inclusive. And so now we're getting people who don't have a space in normal churches who might be having a same sex partner. And they don't have to pretend that their sisters are best friends. They can come and hold hands and just be themselves and not be stressed out about it. There's a lot of people who bounce in and out because they're deconstructing and they don't want to do the evangelical thing. So they want to see what we're about and they come here. And so we're just. My friend's church plant in downtown Houston. He has. Their tagline is to be a church for people who don't have a church. And I can't steal that because we're both Episcopalians in the same diocese. So we're just trying to create space for people to be. And we have a few people who are not Christians. And I didn't realize how controversial this was. But my coach, my church planting colleagues were really surprised that our, our worship leader, I don't know what he is. He might be agnostic at. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Best. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Okay. He's a, he's a, he went to Catholic school, so I don't think, I don't think he wants to visit religion at all. But, but you know, like, and I did that intentionally to pick someone who's not like a praise leader by trade. So we're just, we're just hoping that anyone who needs community, we, we are there. And usually it's the people that, that can't find comfort in, in the hundreds of churches in our, in our, in our area. So we are a bunch of oddballs and. [00:14:56] Speaker B: Outcasts. I love it. I love, I, I call our, our people, our, the misfits. They're not all misfits, but we have a lot of misfits. You know, I think it's the message translation of gosh, I forget. But the parable when the guy is like, you know, trying to throw the party and nobody comes and Jesus says in the message translation paraphrase, he says, go out and get the misfits. And I, that. [00:15:16] Speaker A: Stuck. I was like, yeah, that's. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Great. Those are our people. But you're exactly right. Like, I think what you're doing is beautiful. I think. And if, you know, our church is similar because your worship leader or the person that's on stage or whatever you want to call him, right? Jesus said he did not come for this the healthy, he came for the sick. So like, yeah, let's bring in the people that actually need to know more about Jesus. And for me, the best place. [00:15:40] Speaker A: For him to be from what I'm seeing is he's absorbing, he's paying attention. We talk, we talk about it. But, you know, maybe one day he'll, he'll, he'll secretly be like, yeah, know I believe this stuff, but I haven't been pushing it. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Good. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Great. Nobody. We don't talk about it and you know, I don't like, say out loud to the church, oh, yeah, by the way, you know, like, we're, Nick's not a believer either, but, but it's, it's I, I, I, it fits with our ethos and like, what we're trying to. [00:16:08] Speaker B: Do. Well, and you're being Jesus to him. You're loving him where he is. You're providing community where he is, and we're paying him. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Listen, I think that's, I think that's the most important thing of all the things that we're doing for him. We are paying. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Him. Yes. Love it. Well, Joseph, what. Tell me about like the evolution of your faith and what it has looked like across your. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Life. Oh my gosh. So I grew, I grew up as a pastor's kid. And at the age of four, apparently I have to start earlier. Apparently when my mother was pregnant with me, this was before you could reveal the sex of your child. So yeah, she said like around six months pregnancy, she would go to church every single morning and pray that if God gave her a son, she would dedicate him to ministry. Basically the Hannah. [00:16:58] Speaker B: Prayer. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Okay. And then when I was four years old, apparently I told my dad that I wanted to be a pastor just like him. And my dad took that as gospel. Looking back, I'm like, dude, I'm four years old. What are you. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Doing? Yesterday I said I wanted to be a. [00:17:18] Speaker A: Firefighter. So he started telling his friends and all that stuff. And so this idea became that when I grew up, I was going to be a pastor. And then when I was like 11, 12 or 13, my dad used to call me. The literal translation from Korean would be Little Reverend Yu. Like that's how he'll call me up. You won't call me Joseph. He'll call me Little Reverend. [00:17:36] Speaker B: You. Oh my. [00:17:37] Speaker A: God. And like up to like age 13 or 14, I wanted to be a pastor. Why not? Who doesn't want to be like their. [00:17:41] Speaker B: Dad? [00:17:42] Speaker A: Sure. But then, you know, you start hitting teenagers and the rebellion starts to, you know, streak. And then you just see how my people are treating my dad. Yeah. And my mom. And then the, the expectations of, of the Korean church. The Korean church often like, seems like a lot of Southern Baptists have the same experience. Like if the pastor can't control his family, how do we expect to be to control us or lead us on that stuff? Right. So there. And, and Koreans are generally competitive and like, like, like we're all about showing like, whatever. So I'd always have to be the best as possible so that, you know, like parents be like, look at the pastor's son. Why can't you be like him? That kind of stuff. And my, my parents never forced that upon me. Just I had to go to church and behave. But like, of course they never, they never went anything beyond the immigrant inspect expectation. Right. Like if I go, if I bring home a B, I'm not getting dinner or whatever, you know, like the same I gotta get. So I was like, this is stupid. I don't want to do this. And then I. I went to University of Hawaii, majored in psychology, and I wanted to be a psychologist, okay? And so I was gonna apply to grad school in University of Hawaii during that time. I don't know about now, but back then, there was a very, uh. The university had a very strong psychology graduate program. And the. What I was going to do was I was going to apply to grad school. And then when I. If I got in, I was going to tell my parents, this was my last year in college. Hey, I want to pursue this first. I'm not saying no to ministry. I just want to pursue this. Before I even got to bring that up, my dad calls me and tells me to come home. And I come home and he says, hey, there's this thing called exploration, which is what the United. I was United Methodist back then, okay? It's a United Methodist conference that happens every. I don't know if it still does that, but back then it happened every two years. And it was for kids from 14 to 25 who are exploring the idea of ministry. And the whole weekend is based upon that. And my dad was like, you're going to go. And it was going to be on the weekend of my 23rd birthday, okay? And I was like, dad, it's my birthday. Well, happy birthday. You're going, you're going. And so it's really funny because when I tell my white friends the story, they're like, you could have said no. But when I tell my immigrant friends the story, they're like, oh, yeah, no, I had no choice. So I went to. I went to Chicago for. For the exploration. And then everything just. I can't explain it. It's just. It just everything just seemed to fit. And I knew that seminary was my next phase in life, not. Not grad school and psychology and. And through seminary, I had to go through this idea of, whose calling is this? You know, like, is this. Am I fulfilling my dad's dream of me, or is this my calling? And eventually I realized this was my calling because my dad and I are complete opposite theologically. You know, my dad still holds the traditional evangelical view of. I think my dad might not quite be, like, a literalist in the Bible, but it's pretty much there. Yeah. We had this really conversation about how, you know, like, everything happens without. Nothing happens with the permission of God. Like a bird dies and God. I was like, you know, but. But the saving grace of our relationship is one. My dad is. English is very limited, and my Korean is Very limited. So we can't get into really deep theological thoughts. But, but because I'm, because we're so different, I'm like, that's when I realized this was my calling. Because if it was my dad's calling, I'd still be at a Korean church thumping the Bible and saying, you know, but we're, we're, we're. I think my parents just assumed that gay people don't exist. I think that's how they, they manage the. [00:21:22] Speaker B: World. Yeah, we don't think about it. We don't have to care about. [00:21:25] Speaker A: It. Yeah. Because they were very upset with the, the fact that the Methodist church were fighting over this issue and all that stuff. And I'm going to say issue, but. Yeah, but here we are. Me, both my wife and I are, My wife is also a pastor's kid. We're, we are the, we're both the outliers of the, Our son. Our family's theological spectrum. We're like all the way on, like almost the point where they probably think that we're not real Christians. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I get. [00:21:50] Speaker A: That. Yeah. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It was, it was just an evolution of just being around different people and, and going to a liberal seminary really shaped the way that really, I mean, like from 2003 to 2006, that was our deconstructing period from seminary, but we didn't have that, that, that term. And, and so what I was told telling people is like, each professor just shatters your. What you believe. And you have three choices. You can put it back exactly the way it was and, and re. With reinforcements, or you could leave it shattered and walk away, or you take the pieces and put together a new mosaic of, of faith. And, and so I chose that option to put piece together and, and move, you know, that that's not what my, my family does. Both my in laws and, and my own. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love the way that you set that up to have those three different choices because it's, it's really true. Like, I think deconstruction in and of itself can be one of those terms where it means a thousand different things to a thousand different people. Some people are like, ah, now you're leaving like middle fingers flying, like burn it all down. But oftentimes that's not. And people are just unlearning to relearn a different version of God and themselves and what the Christian faith actually. [00:23:05] Speaker A: Is. I mean, I always felt people who ask why do I believe this is deconstructing? Like, like when you when you ask yourself, okay, wait, why do I really believe this? And. And what I learned is that people don't ask that. They give us, they give us way too much power to like, oh, if the pastor says it, I'm like, no. Like, I am not the smartest person. I'll never pretend to be the smartest person. Like, don't take my word at value. Like, go ahead and push back. And like, yeah, I love to talk about, just be respectful, you know, like, don't call me a heretic. And that's not gonna. But like, you, you don't have to drink the Kool Aid I'm. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Offering. Yes, well, and invite Holy Spirit into it. Like, if I say something from the pulpit that stirs funny in you, ask God about it. Like, God can talk to you by yourself. It doesn't have to come through me. It doesn't have to go through. [00:23:52] Speaker A: You. You know, I don't know if it's. But, but you know, most recently it's almost like if, if you say something that you know, perks your heart, instead of like asking why, they shove it down and blame the pastor or blame the other person. Like, no, I'm like, ask yourself, why does this bother you? There's no big deal of asking why. Why does this agitate you? Yeah. And you can learn from that. But that's, that's. I've learned in San. When I was in Santa Barbara, I pastored a big, a small church that was declining and the average age was like 70. 70. And the United Methodist Church has this program, has this branch of the church called Reconciling Ministries. And, and basically since the United Methodist was position was very anti home lgbt, a reconciling church meant that it was space, safe space for the LGBTQ community. So we were talking about having this discussion and, and these 70 year olds were, were gracious, loving and then all of a sudden it's it when we, it flipped and I was like, why? What is going on? And then it hit me like, These people are 70 years old. They, they believe certain things for probably 70 years. If they were to ask, if they were to allow this, they have to start asking questions. Well, what else could I have gotten. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Wrong? [00:25:09] Speaker A: Yes. And that is something that people don't want to do. And so they double down. And I was like, okay, you know, we don't have to do it. But you know, like, we can't say that we're completely open. But you know, I don't, I'm not going to press it. So it's just like, just that question of why do I feel this way is what people seem to be avoid because they don't want to do the deconstructing or asking questions. Because it's that, it's that little string that you pull. Right. You don't know how it's going to unravel, so they don't pull it at. [00:25:39] Speaker B: All. Yeah, it's easier. It's so much easier to go through life just being like, I know what I believe and I don't have to think about anything. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Else. [00:25:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's so much easier. Yeah. So are your parents first generation. [00:25:51] Speaker A: Immigrants? [00:25:52] Speaker B: Yes. Okay. From. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Korea? Yes. We moved here when I was six years. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Old. Okay. Okay. Is that, does that give you a different kind of like perspective or is there like a unique challenge to being an Asian. [00:26:05] Speaker A: Priest? Yes. In the Episcopal Church. Because there's like only one. There's not that many. But just life wise, I've always been in the in between spaces. So it gives me more, you know, like I wasn't Korean enough for the Koreans, obviously I wasn't white enough for the. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Americans. [00:26:23] Speaker A: Yeah. When I was in California, I wasn't progressive enough for the progressives, not conservatives enough for the conservatives. So there's just always just in between places. And I really was like, where do I belong? I don't know where I belong. But I realized that there's so many people who continually operate in the in between spaces. So I have an affinity for people who just don't know. They're just, you know, in the wilderness in between two things. And pastor's kid, those two people, those two types of people I have a affinity with and just, I'm drawn to them. And we, we talk and share stories about our particularly Korean pastors kids. Because I don't think a lot of the Korean pastor kids believe in therapy, but we all need. [00:27:08] Speaker B: Therapy. You guys can all relate to each. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Other. Yeah. The things that our family has, our families go through. Thankfully, my dad was not the typical. Like a lot of Korean kids, pastors, kids grow up resenting the church because their dad is always at the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's this, there's this underlying thing that if, you know, if you're, if you're not suffering, you're not doing it right. And if you're not sacrificing, you're not doing it right. So it's an honor for the pastor to sacrifice their families on behalf of the ministry and. But that's not good for the. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Kids. [00:27:42] Speaker A: Right. But my dad was home all the time, like, to the point where I never could get in trouble, because when I come home, both my parents were. [00:27:47] Speaker B: There. You're like, give me the chance to. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Do. Give me the chance to mess up. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Man. Well, I'm sure your experience of feeling like you were always kind of in between two things has led to the way that you have fostered, like, a sense of belonging at your church. What does. What does it look like? What. What does belonging look like at. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Mosaic? I don't know if I can describe it like, but I just want people to. I read Brene Brown's book Heart of the Atlas. Who. I'm just. I'm one degree separation from her. I know she's an Episcopalian. She's in Houston. We were going to do a workshop with her for the diocese, but then it was in 2020 and it got canceled because everything got shut down. So that was my biggest chance. But she wrote that it's different. Fitting in and belonging are not the same. Yes. And I was so taken aback about how true and simple that was. And it didn't dawn on me until I was, you know, I read her book, and so I just. We just want people to feel that they can be who they are. We want people to come and be loved and be loved and. And don't have to give up anything about who they are. I think, you know, when I was growing up, the. The model was believe, behave, belong first you got to believe what we believe, then you got to behave like this, and then you can be part of us. I was like, that's completely. It wasn't. When I was doing youth group, I was youth ministry. I was like, that's not the way it should be. It should be belong first. And then when people feel like they're belong, they. They. They're safe and this is trusted place. Their. Their guards go down and they're being able to. And then they're. You're able to tell them this is what we believe. And the behavior part, we're not here to control. We. A lot of us do treat Jesus as a behavior modification thing, but Jesus doesn't want to change us from the outside in. He. Because if we change from the outside in, it's never going to. We're just going to change our behavior. And our heart doesn't change. Jesus wants to change from the inside out. When our heart changes, everything else changes. So if someone feels like they belong and then they fully believe, we don't have to worry about how they behave because it's going to seep in. Like, they're going to want to be an active Christian who does good for the world. So that's the way that we're. That's the way I've been approaching ministry and letting people know that. That you don't have to believe what we believe. We just want you to. But we will have community with you. You don't have to believe everything that the pastor says. You don't have to believe what we do. We just want you to come and feel loved and know that you are loved and then go and be loved. Maybe you're in a space of time where all you can do is receive love. That's great. We will love you as much as we can. But there is a point where you have to go and be loved because that's the greatest commandment, is twofold. It's love God and love your. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Neighbor. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's the way that we've been approaching ministry. I don't know how to make people feel like they belong. But you know, like, like I said, like when, when a. When a gay couple walks in and they're able to be themselves without like wondering who's going to side eye them or if they're going to get kicked out of church. You know, like that in of itself is a huge thing for me, that they can be wonderfully. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Themselves. Yeah, well. And I think a lot of people's church experience to. I'm realizing more and more that a lot of the people that we think are like, unchurched are not unchurched. They're like, I don't know if d. Church. They, they have been in church, they've had church experiences. They're just choosing to not actively be in one right. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Now. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Right. Because their experience was like you said, a ticking off of all the right boxes in order to. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Belong. [00:31:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So when you kind of offer up this model for people, you know, like that, like that gay couple, like you said, if they were to walk in, do you have to almost convince them? Like, does it take convincing of like you can belong here or, you know, not. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Really. Maybe in the beginning it did, but you know, like, we are not shy about our. Maybe we should be because we are in a very red district. But you know, we have like a pride flag hanging out one of the storefront at the end. So like when people come in, they'll see that when they pull up to the parking lot, you know, they'll see, they'll see a. A sign that says church on the, on the you know, front, the mat, whatever big sign, and then on the window is a price line. They're like, what? So that in of itself probably either you know, lets people know that they can belong, or this is not the church for them. So. But like now, now there's not that much people don't come in wondering. They just come especially. It's starting February. This year was when people started coming because they have found me online. Like, they. They say, oh, we saw you on Instagram or whatever. And so for those people coming in, then they should know what we're about because they've been listening to me for a little bit. So there's no confusion of, of. So I think. I think now people just come in knowing that they can be, that they are that Jesus. Like, we don't want to change them, but we want them to be transformed by the love of. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Christ. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's what we seek to provide is just like, we don't want to change who you are. But if you love Jesus, that love just naturally flows outward, particularly to the marginalized of our community. So let's be loved and let's be loved. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think the difference there between change and transformation is like, change is we are going to tell you how to change. We're going to say, we know where you. [00:33:20] Speaker A: Are. Yes. And we're. [00:33:21] Speaker B: Gonna. We're gonna dictate where you're going. Right. How you're going to look different. Transformation, no one can. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Predict. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Right. Like, I don't think anybody can say, hey, Joseph, or Kristen, when you are transformed through Jesus, you're going to become like this. Like, we don't. [00:33:36] Speaker A: Know. You know what I. [00:33:37] Speaker B: Mean? And so Holy Spirit gives us, like, you unique burdens and things to care about and things to do. I had no idea that I was going to care about social justice at all. Not one degree, not 1%, truly. Because growing up, I lived in this little bubble, and if it didn't affect me, I had the privilege of not needing to. [00:33:56] Speaker A: Care. Right. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Right. My transformation now, when I tell people that now people have just met me in the last couple of years, they're shocked. But I'm like, no, that's actually what transformation means. Like, you just become the person that God wants you to be and the person that the people around you like the reflection of Jesus that they need to see, you. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Know? [00:34:15] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you think? Or what do you wish? I guess the churches that hold back belonging. Right. Because there are churches that keep back belonging until behavior has changed or whatever. What do you wish those. Those churches knew or understood the. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Difference between love and control. It's a fight. Love and control is such a fine line. And a lot of times we are controlling, thinking that it's love. Yeah. And, And. And, you know, like, change, as you say, you know, like, we. We try to curve people's behavior to be this. What we feel is a good Christian, but we're not doing anything. We're just. We're just, you know, like, changing the color of the building. Like, that's not going to change anything. But. But, you know, like. But just, Just the idea, like, everything seems to, you know, the, the whole fear of heaven and hell is, you know, it's not love. It's more of control to be like, hey, you need to be this way so you can avoid that. So I just would wish that people will understand that control and love are very, very. They're so. They're so close together that you don't. You think you're doing one. You think you're loving, but you're actually controlling. But if you. If you just take a step back and look at how you're approaching, you realize, like, a lot of these evangelical churches are more about control than they are about love. And I get it. It's difficult. Like, you know, like, when people are deconstructing, they get exiled from. Excommunicate from the church. You know, that's. For me, I always say that's. That's. They. They chose the bottom line. Right. Because if you. If you have the. If you have this person that's agitating, asking questions, and those questions are going to start agitating your big givers, like, the, you know, like, you need to control this person so that it doesn't affect Grandma Sally, who's been giving, you know, millions of dollars. Like, we don't want to. So. So, like, you don't want to deal with that because you don't want to. So anyway, just, you know, like, what does it mean to be loving without controlling? Which is easier said than. [00:36:10] Speaker B: Done. Yeah. Is there one key thing? I mean, I know you said step back and, like, see how it's happening. Is there one key way that people can tell, like, if they're operating out of love or out of. [00:36:19] Speaker A: Control? I don't know. I just think if the Jesus is, you know, the plank and the speck, like, we see this happen, like, people gone viral over this, where, like, someone will approach a young woman and say, oh, cover up whatever this is. I have kids out. [00:36:38] Speaker B: Here. [00:36:38] Speaker A: Right. And it's like, you know, when Jesus, Jesus said, if your right eye causes you to sin, don't tell the person. Tell the person across from you. Causing us into change. And then it's like, gouge out the other eye. Like, like we, we want to. I think it's human nature to not try to fix ourselves, but fix others because it's easier. And so, like, I think a lot of this control thing would, would, would be kind of less if we just sat back and, you know, talked about, like we said earlier. Why does this bother me? Yeah. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Yeah. But instead, we don't want to do, like, that, that parent. I understand why that might be discouraging, but if you see, if you're with kids and you see someone wearing less of a bikini, then I get that you don't want your kid to see that. But then go, you have control, like, move over or don't look that way, whatever. It's just, but we feel so uncomfortable. We want to go and fix that and, and tell them what to do instead of, why does this make me feel. [00:37:42] Speaker B: Uncomfortable? [00:37:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So, so, like, I guess introspection would be a great way to realize or to, to ask yourself, what am I? What's, what's going on here? But no one, like most people, don't like to do that because it hurts. It's painful. It's, it's, it's. [00:37:57] Speaker B: Annoying. It's way easier for me to make you uncomfortable, Joseph, than it is for me to be uncomfortable. [00:38:05] Speaker A: Myself. Yes. Because this is what Jesus said. Make sure other people feel uncomfortable. [00:38:12] Speaker B: Right. Gospel. So you wrote a book called when the Saints Go Flying. [00:38:19] Speaker A: In. [00:38:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Would you connect stories of the saints to contemporary stories? And there's one in particular I want you to tell us about St. Catherine of Bologna, or however you say that in a fancy. [00:38:30] Speaker A: Way. The one that has her body still up in the church. Is. [00:38:34] Speaker B: It. I know she's a patron state of state of. [00:38:36] Speaker A: Art. Is her body up somewhere? Google it when we're. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Done. [00:38:42] Speaker A: Wild. It's like, what do you. [00:38:45] Speaker B: Mean? What do you. [00:38:46] Speaker A: Mean? Google it. Catherine. St. Catherine, Bologna Church. What? So, so I, I, I read that, you know, you have to have two, two miracles attributed to you to become Algebra 4 saint. Unless you're a martyr, then, then you need one. But one of the miracles of St. Catherine is that her body did not decompose. So there's just this black. It's, it's just like. I thought this was a lie. And I googled it. And I googled it and I googled it. And now Like, I can't get the image out of my head. And I'm like, sir, don't go to church. Like, why would you want to go to a church that has a death? But what did you know? What did you want to know about St. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Kevin? Well, I wanted to know. I'm trying to get so you in your book, I think you connected her to Vincent Van. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Gogh. Yes. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Yes. Talk to me about that, talk to me about that connection and I'll tell you. [00:39:41] Speaker A: Why. So I feel like I'm not a big art guy, but, you know, like art does speak to people in some way. And I did not know that Vincent wanted to be a pastor. That, that drew me that. But like he's been talk about people being wounded by church. Like he was first he was rejected from seminary, whether because he was poor or not. So he couldn't do that. And instead the people gave, the people in charge gave him a small village church. And in that church, he, he wanted to really live out the gospel of Jesus. So he sold everything he had and gave it to the coal miners who were the most vulnerable in that village. And he slept in like the haystack behind the bakery. And the church was really, really uncomfortable. So they took an offering to say that, live here, you know, we're going to take an offering and we want you to be a normal person. And he took that money and gave it to the coal miners and continue to be in the back, you know, be, be houseless. And the church couldn't handle it, so they fired him. And so, so, like, there's a lot of church trauma that Vincent painted and then, or that Vincent experienced. And then when he painted the Starry Night, someone pointed out that the only building without a light on is the church. And if you look at it, it's true. Every single building has a light on, but the church that's in the middle has the lights off. And like, what is he trying to say? You know? And then like knowing his history, the church completely abandoned him, like completely. And all he did was try to live literally, like Jesus, selling everything he has and giving it to the poor. And so I don't know, you know, like, I don't know what his intentions were, but it's very, very, it's very, for me, I take a moment and just pause and wondering, okay, are we a church that keeps our lights off in the dark or are we going to be the light of the world? Yeah. And yeah, so it's just, it's just a thought provoking kind of Thing where I didn't know such a. I didn't know his history. The only thing I knew about him was that, you know, he cut off his ear. But how much of the church was responsible for his mental health deteriorating? You know, like, yeah, we played a huge part in. [00:41:57] Speaker B: That. Well, not. [00:41:58] Speaker A: We. But yes, well, the. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Church. Yes, for sure. No, we have our lead pastor. Naim Fazel was an art major, also did to be in ministry. And he read. Oh, my gosh, is it Fujimaru's book that talks all about Van Gogh and his story. And so we actually have Starry Night hanging in our green. [00:42:19] Speaker A: Room. Oh. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Nice. In our building as, like, a reminder, because he totally did paint it as an indictment of the church of like, yeah, this. [00:42:26] Speaker A: Is. [00:42:27] Speaker B: Okay. He really did. Yeah. And so it's kind of become like this underlying, like, unwritten value for us and a reminder of, yeah, this is the kind of church that we want to be. Not the dark. [00:42:39] Speaker A: One to be the light and the community to be. [00:42:44] Speaker B: Light. Exactly. In a world where everybody thinks that the church is still dark. Like, I think a lot of people still believe that, right? That, like, the church is not doing anything to help people. The church is not actually hopeful. What do you. [00:42:56] Speaker A: Think? You can't. You can't blame them for seeing a. [00:43:00] Speaker B: Media. You can't. You can't. But we. But we have to know and believe, right, that there is, like, Jesus wanted better for the church, that there is a better. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Future. You know what the Revelation 3:20, I think is when Jesus knocks on the door. I remember my church, one of my churches had the wonderful picture of Jesus leaning in with a lamp and just knocking on the door. And it's like, I love how far we've taken it out of context because Jesus isn't standing outside of a church knocking on the door, saying, let me. [00:43:28] Speaker B: In. [00:43:28] Speaker A: Right? Like, it's. It's not a beautiful. It's more of an indictment. Like, Jesus is literally standing outside church saying, knock, knocking, let me in. And I feel like you're right. Like. Like, kind of like the lights off at the A Starry night and Revelation 3:20, it's like, are we. Are we. You know, like, what are we really doing here? Are we really following the teachings of Jesus or are we building our own. [00:43:52] Speaker B: Empire? [00:43:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's, again, one of those. It's going to make you uncomfortable to honestly ask that question, but all of us need to ask that question. What do you think the church needs to do? Like, the global church? No, I'm not Global. The American church, specifically, let's be honest. What do you think the church needs to do to change this narrative of, like, this is not a hopeful, great. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Place? I don't know. Come on. I'm. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Hoping. Solve it for us. [00:44:17] Speaker A: Joseph. Right now, I'm hoping that this, when this season is over, that this is the death of the Christian nationalist. [00:44:27] Speaker B: Movement. [00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah. But the only thing that we can do is just continue to let people know that there is a different way to approach Christ and what you see on TV is not it. And I feel like most people are starting to understand that now. Like, that not all Christians are, you know, aligned with Pete Hexith or. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Whatever. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Yeah. But I don't know if there's anything we can do in, like, the level of the media that a lot of the Christian nationalists have gotten. But if someone asked, you know, I've been telling people, like, it feels like a cop out, but I can't control what the president does. I can't control what Governor Abbott does. I can't control anything that happens in the vote. There's the one thing I can control is me. And my. I feel like for me, in this season, this really fraught and difficult season, what I can do is just be a blessing to someone, just one person at a time. I think it was Alan Hirsch. He defined blessing as helping someone breathe easier for a moment, even if it's for a moment. Because blessed blessing someone could mean anything. Like in Texas we have, you know, bless your heart. Which isn't. Which is not a compliment. It's a. More of a. So. So to. To quantify, to actually make blessings tangible is to say, hey, just help someone breathe easier. And that could, you know, that could be as big as paying someone's rent for a month or as small as sending a text. Just do whatever you can to help people know that they. They are seen and they are loved and one person at a time. That's the only thing I can do. Like I said, I can't control anything else. But what I can control is what I do. And because I have a. I don't know how this happened, but because of the platform that I have happened to have, then I feel a responsibility to also extend that to the social media part. Yes. Let's just be real. We are not perfect. We made lots of mistakes. And Jesus is probably rolling his eyes at the. Where the church is going, but not everyone is like that. And there are people who are fighting for the. There are people who are trying to do what Jesus told them to Do. So that's the way I'm. I'm choosing to solve this issue. It's just one person at a time. Let them feel that. I write a prayer journal and every morning, and each morning I end it with, please help me place me in a situation where I'll be a blessing to someone. And yeah, and like I said, a lot of. For people, like, for me sometimes, like, I always want to do something that has a huge impact. But I realized a long time ago that's ego. Like, look what I did. It's not like, look what God does. Look what I did. But, you know, what struck me the most is Jesus was really good at the little things. You know, I forgot who said this, but I'm gonna say I said, but Jesus. The miracles, the miracles that Jesus did faded, right? Like the people he raised from the dead died. Lazarus eventually died again. The people who he healed got sick again. The people he fed got hungry again. But it's the way that Jesus made them feel, right? Like the lepers who are completely outcast. Jesus touched them. Jesus looked people in the eye. Jesus reminded them of their humanity. And that, I think, was what drew people to Jesus. In the end, it was the miracles that got them in the door. But, like, the way that Jesus did the little things was what kept, what brought these followers. And so, like, yes, it's really great. If you could buy someone a house, that'd be great. But you know what? Most of us aren't in the position, but you know what we can do is we can make them feel loved and seen and heard. And that might not seem big enough for someone who wants to do something big. But you don't know how. You don't know what that ripple of grace is going to cause in their life and others. So the best thing to do is just continue to be love and let God do the. [00:48:40] Speaker B: Rest. That's so beautiful and it's so encouraging for the people that are like, well, I don't have a big social media platform or, you know, I can't do anything. My story doesn't matter. I mean, you just said so. There's so many little tiny things. All of us have enough influence to make someone feel a certain. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Way. I mean, like, literally sending someone a card, like a snail mail card. Yes. That goes a lot, especially today. Like that. Even. Even a text out of the blue saying, hey, I just was thinking about you. How are you doing? That's not a voice memo with. [00:49:11] Speaker B: Your own mouth, like, with your own. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Voice. Yeah, that's not going to hit the Richter scale of change. But you know what, that person is going to feel loved and, and, and that's good. And you don't know. So like I'm trying to like, you know, instead of focusing on making big impacts, like do as a monster said, do small things with great love. Yeah. And, and, and like this and that. MAYA Angelou co. People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you make them feel. And so like if you help people feel loved, that's gonna go a long way in their lives. And, and, and that does not take effort. Right. Like, like that. You don't need a social media platform. You don't need to have lots of money. You don't need to do like just letting someone know that you care about them goes a long way. And it's cost effective. It's, it's, it's very, but you know, we get busy or, or we get in our heads. I don't know. But I don't know what we come up with excuses to do things or whatever, but justification, it's do, do small things with great love and it'll go a long. [00:50:13] Speaker B: Way. Well, this is very much related. But the last question for you, Joseph, is because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can listeners become the church to the people around them? Maybe this is a little bit more not just about loving people, but how can they take their faith out into the. [00:50:27] Speaker A: World. Loving your neighbors, just, just, yeah, just, yeah, just, same thing. Just, just continue to. And, and Richard Rohr wrote that Jesus is not Jesus not in the side. Jesus not loyal to political parties or ethnicities or nationalities. Jesus is loyal to suffering. And if you want to really meet Jesus, go where the people are suffering. I think, I think that's one way we become church is enter, is to enter into places, spaces that we know people are struggling and not try to fix them, but to let them know that they are not alone in this journey. And just, I can't state enough. Just letting people know that they are seen in love goes such a long way and it's such, it does not take effort. You don't have to plan a four day retreat and all that stuff. It's just, it's just being a decent human being, being kind goes a long way and it's not that difficult. [00:51:31] Speaker B: Difficult. [00:51:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And being kind really helps you become church because you know, like we, we, we don't, you know, like my atheist friends use words or describe stuff where I would be like, oh, you know, that's for me, I would say that's the spirit moving. Like, we all have this. We just have different ways to describe it based upon our beliefs. But the underlying is being kind is in every. Should be. It's in every religion, every ethos, every, you know, like. And. And we as Christians should excel in it because that's what Jesus told us to. [00:52:05] Speaker B: Do. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. That was so encouraging. And listen, you have been a blessing to me today, so I know that you've been a blessing to our listeners as well. We will link up the book and your social media and all the things so people can find you. You can be a blessing to someone to day. And my guess is you are already doing it without even realizing it. So when we put just a little intention behind the way we live, just think about all of the goodness and hope and truth and light that God can bring to people through you. Saying yes and taking those tiny steps of obedience when Holy Spirit prompts you to text or call or reach out or help won't change you into a good Christian, but they will be part of of your transformation and looking more and more like Jesus. And that is the point of this whole Christianity thing. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.