Magen Thurman: When Worship is Hard.

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and I'm so glad you are joining the conversation. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Becoming Church. Today I'm talking with Megan Thurman. Megan, hello. Hi. [00:00:37] Speaker B: How are you? [00:00:38] Speaker A: I'm great. How are you? [00:00:40] Speaker B: I'm doing good. I'm doing well, thank you. [00:00:42] Speaker A: Good. So glad to have you. Listen, you guys are going to like this conversation. Megan is a worship leader. I think you run the worship department at your church, is that right? [00:00:51] Speaker B: I lead worship pretty much everywhere right now in Dallas, and so that's what I am currently doing. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, we are going to lean into that, and we're going to talk today about. At a time when it seems like the whole world is watching church and church people, you know, what it kind of feels like or what it's like to be in the public eye. But before we do that, we'll ease in a little bit. I have to let people know, Megan, that I reached out to you via Instagram to be on this podcast, and you ignored me because you thought that I was hacked and I was scamming you. Do you remember this? [00:01:27] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:01:30] Speaker A: You said, I got a voice message from you that was like, okay, like, I want to be on your podcast, but I'm just not sure. And so I've watched your stories, and now I think you're a real person. And so, like, yes, let's do it. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I get so many requests to. I just get so many requests to do things or come lead worship, whatever. And so you never know which one is real and which one isn't. It's really hard. So I would say anyone who wants to, like, approach someone, just send, like, a voice through Instagram, be like, hi. Just so you know, it's a real human. That's smart. Because once I heard you, I was like, oh, you're real. You're not, you know, halfway across the world and really a man and trying to. [00:02:22] Speaker A: I think my voice back to you is like, I'm obese weirdo. But not like a bad weirdo. I'm just a normal person. Yeah. Well, thank you for agreeing to come on and chat with me. [00:02:34] Speaker B: Of course. [00:02:35] Speaker A: So you're a worship leader. Tell me, tell us, what is it that you love most about worship? [00:02:41] Speaker B: I think what I love the most is seeing the people of God respond to the Lord in that corporate moment. I didn't grow up wanting to be a worship leader. I grew up in Texas, basically in the south, and a very conservative and just conservative complementarian churches. And so I was always the harmony girl. You know, it's the classic thing where there's a guy worship leader and the girl sings the one song, and then the rest of the time she's on the harmony and she doesn't say anything or she doesn't. I mean, she's just like this, like, mute person who sings the one girl hillsong song, you know, like, yes, back in the day, Hosanna. It would always be, you know. And so I grew up really in that context, never wanting to be a worship leader. And it wasn't until we moved to Northern Virginia and my husband started working at a church in Northern Virginia. And I remember going to their young adult service that night, Sunday night, and there was a. It was a woman. [00:03:46] Speaker A: She was the worship. [00:03:47] Speaker B: And I looked at my husband, I was like, wait, is she the worship leader? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, no, no, no. Is she not married to the worship leader? Is she the worship leader? He's like, yeah. I'm like, is she employed to be the worship leader, not the volunteer or not under the guy? And he's like, no, she's the worship leader for this service. And I remember looking at her for the first time in my life, say, I. It very rarely happens, but just like, it welled up in me. I was like, I can do that. I know I can do that. I can do that. And I think that that. And eventually I was hired on at that church to be a worship leader, but I. [00:04:29] Speaker A: At that same church that you were at. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Yes, yes, at the same church. And so. But I would say that what God had. Has grown in me over these years of leading worship is a love for seeing people just worship him. And in that moment where there's a room of people responding to the Lord and then also in certain moments of worship, like, really sensing the Holy Spirit at work, interacting with even itself in a room. It's. That is like, because the Lord wants to be worshiped. He wants to be worshiped and praised and honored and loved. And so in those moments, it's the Holy Spirit working in a miraculous way with the triune God. Right? So we are. We are all. Sometimes I just want to, like, I love just letting the congregation hear itself sing because I'm. We're part of it, too. And I love the. I love when the people. We're all just singing and when they hear themselves sing, I Hope in those moments, it's a reminder that, like, we are all at this. The feet of Jesus. Like, yeah, I get to choose the songs, but we're all at the feet of Jesus, loving Jesus, thanking Jesus, praising God for his mercy, and giving us Jesus as. As the ultimate sacrifice so that we now have the Holy Spirit living in us. I mean, there's just 10,000 upon 10,000 reasons on a Sunday to love the Lord and worship the Lord. And so I love it when that just kind of happens altogether in a moment. And I think that those are the things that I just. I think that's why I love being a worship leader. Otherwise we're just singing songs. [00:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:19] Speaker B: You know. [00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is fine, but a very different thing. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Which is fun. Yeah. But probably I wouldn't choose to wake up at 6am to do it. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, I can tell. I mean, I've. I grew up in the church. I've always been at church. I've always been a church girl essentially. And I can tell the difference between a worship leader who is leading people in singing a song and a worship leader who is leading people in worship. And I think that there is a difference. And maybe it's better if the average person can't tell the difference sometimes, you know, But I think there's definitely a. Because it can look the same, sound the same, but you can tell like when the. When the worship leader's heart is in it. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:04] Speaker A: You know. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Agreed, agreed. Totally agree. [00:07:07] Speaker A: What do you wish people knew about worship? Or do you think there's like this misconception that people get wrong about worship? [00:07:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yes, I. That the worship songs are the things that's going to actually do the work. The worship songs in a service. I think that we're under this misconception from the leadership, from the pastor, from. From the congregation standpoint, pastor, constant standpoint worship. I think we're all fooled sometimes into thinking that the worship songs are the thing in the service, that that is the workhorse to get people where they need to be emotionally and spiritually and. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:56] Speaker B: And I think that we have been fooled. And I lead all over the place now. I mean, I. God has really given me the open doors to lead worship in the context of girls. Don't ever lead worship here, so don't mess it up and don't say too much like those churches to gospel churches where it is. I don't know any of the songs. I've had to learn every single one. But it's the exact same no matter what you. No matter what you hit. I think in a lot of churches, we think that the worship songs are the thing that has to do the job. It's got to get people where they need to be before the sermon happens. And I think that what I am realizing is that we cannot depend on the songs and the song choices and the lights and the haze. And however many times we want to encourage the congregation to have faith and sing with belief and hope, I mean, that we can do all of that. But the hard work happens in us first, and the hard work happens in the congregation individually first. And the hard work happens behind the scenes first with the pastor and with ourselves. And looking at our bands and the accountability of all of us together individually looking at ourselves, saying, okay, Lord, every single day, every single moment, saying, lord, I love you. I don't do all this perfect. But here's where I'm doing it wrong. And I feel like you're telling me that I'm doing it wrong here. I'm not being patient with my kids. I'm doing it. And then it's the act of confessing and repenting and then saying, okay, God, change my heart into who you are wanting me to be. Help me be Jesus to the world around me. Like it says in, you know, James 1. I'm doing my devotional this morning, and it's just talking about how, like, he's calling us to not be, like, in the world, but, like, not in the world of the world, but in the world. Right. But I'm like, what does that mean? And he's basically just saying, like, you interact with the world. Yes, but from the context of I am Jesus's and the Holy Spirit is living in me. And so I'm going to love people in the way that Jesus calls me. I'm going to interact with the world from the context of Jesus. And so I think that, like, it's that that's the hard work and that's the harder stuff, because that's the secret stuff, but that's the stuff that does the hard work in your services. So on Sunday, that's the stuff that makes the difference in your services. On Sunday, when everyone is doing that themselves, then you don't have to depend on a really good set and the lights really blinking at the right time and just the right amount of haze and the, you know, the pastor comes up in the middle of the song to really get this, the crowd moving. You don't have to depend on those things. Those things happen or they don't. It doesn't Matter. But, like, the Holy Spirit honors, I believe, our obedience to him and our desire to honor him in. In and throughout the week. So, anyway, that's. That's the misconception I feel like, is worship. And I think even. Yeah, that's what it is, in my opinion. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah, no. Yes, yes, yes. No, you're fine. I like that you said. Talked about the worship leader and the band and the pastor and all of the staff people or volunteers or whoever having to do the work. But really, it is also dependent upon the people. I mean, there, if we want to blame a song for, like, oh, God didn't show up here. Well, God was already there. God was trying to come in. It wasn't the song. It was probably the posture of your own heart. You know, I've heard God speak to me in songs that I don't like. [00:11:49] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:11:49] Speaker A: But he was still there. And then I've had other moments where, oh, my gosh. I remember once looking around in a worship service. It was like a midweek service that we did a few years ago, and you could just see. I mean, you could just see the Holy Spirit in the presence of God on people, but I was not feeling it. And the more I watched people really, like, get in the spirit and get into worship and get into prayer, it was like it was tangible. The room was just thick. And I felt like, for whatever reason, I was an outsider looking in. And I remember leaving that worship service so mad at God because I was like, why did you show up for everyone else and not me? And I was mad at him for two days. And then finally he. Sometimes he has to slap me around a little bit. But he was like, listen, that's not on me. Like, you were focused on the wrong things. And instead of just trying to find me, you were looking at everybody else. You were looking at the environment. You were trying to compare, like, your experience with theirs. He was like, I was already there for whatever reason. There was a block, and you didn't let me in. And I'm like, well, dang. [00:12:58] Speaker B: You know, listen, Tough truths from Kristen. That's like the real. I think that there's also a real responsibility of us as congregants when we walk into a church, saying to ourselves, lord, I will interact with you. Because we've all been at the churches where. I mean, I've led worship at churches where I'm leading worship. And on the first rows are just people with their coffee cups, just like. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Yep. [00:13:25] Speaker B: They just stand there, their coffee hands, other hand in their pocket, just Sipping their coffee. Like, we're standing in Nordstrom's cafe chit chatting. And I'm like, literally, we're singing about Jesus on the cross. Like, give me. Give all of us a little bit more. And so I do think that there is a responsibility of the congregation that we do not. And I think we're so afraid of offending people in our congregation. Some churches. Some churches are like. Some churches are, like, amazing in that way. And then I've also been at churches where it's like, they are so afraid of offending that we don't say, hey, this is on you. [00:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:05] Speaker B: If you want to interact with the Lord, I can't. I'm not your mama. I can't hold your hand in it. All I can do is offer you some songs. That's literally what I can offer you. And my own personal time with the Lord of, like, just trying to sanctify myself. That's all I got. And then it's on you, and it's your choice. And if you want to interact with the Lord today, you're welcome to. The Lord says, here I am. You know, like, here I am. I'm knocking at the door. It's your job to open it up. It's your job to let me in. It's your job to say, okay, search me, Lord. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Know me. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Know my innermost thoughts. You can bring anything to the table. You can talk to me about anything, because I am yours. And if we don't do that, that's on us. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Right? Right. Yeah. The band and the worship leaders lead us in worship, but they can't do it for us. [00:14:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:58] Speaker A: I think it's. I'm, like, trying to figure out what it is. I know. I'm sure it's personality type. I'm sure there probably is something to, you know, being whether or not you're drawn to the song or the music or whatever. I just keep thinking, though, that maybe it's a vulnerability thing. Like, I think it's hard for people sometimes to be like. And I love worshiping. I love music. And so I'm one of those. I'm like, if I want to get on the floor, I'm on the floor. If I'm crying, I can't help it. Like, it's the Holy Spirit moving. I'm gonna dance. I'm gonna jump around. I'm gonna put my hands up. But I know for some people. Well, some people probably think I'm crazy, but other people probably would look at me and just be like, I just wonder if there's a wish for that kind of freedom, that maybe it's some kind of block of. I don't know what other people would think or a fear of being vulnerable. [00:15:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that, you know. Yeah, I think that's, I mean, I think it's two parts. I think that if you aren't in a congregation that shows emotion, then you're definitely not going to be the first one to do it. Right. And that's me too. If I'm, if I'm leading in a place that is very emotionless, I will try to prompt them to worship, but I'm not going to show overt over emotion. Right. So like we kind of feed off of one another. And listen, if I'm just sitting in a service sometimes so like no hate, no shade on anyone who sips their coffee in church. Sometimes I'm on the back row and I'm just like, lord, I'm here. That's all I can give you. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Exactly. Sometimes that's all you have the capacity for. And it's okay. [00:16:34] Speaker B: My youngest wanted to look like rainbow bright on the way here. We've had a fight about it. Like, all I can give you is. [00:16:43] Speaker A: My presence, physical presence. [00:16:44] Speaker B: Sorry, but so that's, that's. I feel like there's that. But I do think that. So I think that there's that part of it. And so that's one side. I think the other side is, listen, the church is Satan's biggest enemy ever. You can say that church is Satan's biggest enemy. So you better believe that he is at work in the church to attack and to discourage and to shame. And I think that that plays out on so hundreds and thousands of different levels every single week, every single day. But on a Sunday morning, I think that this, I think Satan is at work in those moments of, no, you can't show that emotion or the shame, the vulnerability. No, your wife is there and she's never seen you do this or, you know, like your husband will make fun of you after or, you know, whatever, whatever it is. And so I do think that Satan is at work. And I think that, I think that that is between you and God. I could never tell you how to handle that. But I think that's between you and the Lord to say, you don't need to find a solution. You need to be honest with the Lord for saying, Lord, I want to respond to you more. I just don't know how or I feel ashamed in doing it. It's that honesty thing with the Lord. That he's really looking for. He's not looking for you to find a solution. He's looking for you to be honest with him so that you can know yourself the same way he knows you. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:17] Speaker B: You can see yourself the same way he's seeing it. And I think that that's always the Lord's first. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And not at all that I probably should have clarified that everyone needs to jump around and dance around and do what I do. I just, I know for me, for me, if I'm, if I feel it and I don't do it, it's almost like disobedience in a sense, you know? And so I think for some people, exactly like you said, their act of showing up is their obedience. Their act of just being there is their way of saying, okay, God, I'm doing what you're calling me to, you know. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, sometimes you really are just like, Lord, I mean, I've been in those seasons where I'm like, lord, I have two crumbs, I am sitting at a table and I have. Or I don't even know what the analogy is, but I got this much in my hand and I'm offering this much to my kids and to like, I have nothing to pour out anymore. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:15] Speaker B: So I'm here and I ask for you to meet me. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:20] Speaker B: And I will respond to you. Speak to my soul. And sometimes the Lord is not, you know, calling the 65 year old man to run down the aisle. If he wants to, he can. But I do think sometimes the Lord is asking the 65 year old man to say, okay, Lord, I'm here. How do I respond to you right now? In a way that is honoring to you and that. That loves you as best I possibly can right now. So, yeah. [00:19:48] Speaker A: And that's it. I think. How do we respond and not hold back whatever that looks like for us? Actually, that leads me to. Let's talk about. I know in Hebrews there's a verse that talks about offering praise to God as a sacrifice. And so that phrase has just kind of stuck with me because to me, sacrifice is hard. Sacrifice implies that it's hard. Sacrifice says, hey, this might hurt a little bit. But I know a lot of times people will use worship as like a platitude almost of, oh, just worship. And it's good and it's easy and it'll be great and it'll fix things. But I think we set people up for failure because then maybe they go to that worship service, they try to listen like I did that day. They try to hear God's voice and they don't. Sometimes worship is hard. Like, do you have any encouragement in what to do? Like, what do we do? [00:20:45] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Worship is so hard because worship is singing truths that sometimes you don't want to believe or don't believe or are really struggling to believe that are actually true. So it's like when you're going through life and you're on the brink of divorce, or you're in intense marriage counseling or your kids are really just going down a place you don't want going into or whatever, whatever it is. There's a thousand things. My mind is always on marriage and family because I am married and I have kids. But yeah, I think that worship. But all of think about it. But all of our worship songs are, lord, you're good God, I believe you, God, and you are faithful. God, you are true. Lord, you are a promise keeper and the creator and giver of all good things. And you're with me in the story. Like it's all of these things that are true. But it, it's hard because listen, this is the Israelites when they're in the wilderness. Why were they in the wilderness for so long? Because they did not believe God. They did not believe the Lord. They did not. They doubted God. It's not just that they're like, oh, manna again. No, it is because they did not believe the Lord's goodness and that the Lord would take care of them and that the Lord is leading them to their promised land and that the Lord would be with them. And what the Lord said to do, they do. And the Lord would promise that they would be with them and provide protection, all those kind of things. They didn't believe any of that. [00:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:31] Speaker B: And so they were in the wilderness and then their belief kept the majority of them in the wilderness till their dying day. And so it wasn't. And so all that to say you have a choice in worship and faith and belief are not inherent things. They don't inherently happen in us as humans in this world. Especially when you start getting older in life and there's just so much happening in the world. There's so much happening in our families. Belief and faith that God is good and God is at work for our good and for his glory. Those do not inherently happen in us. That's not natural responses. Those are white knuckles sometimes holding on tight. Belief that God, I believe you are good because you tell me you are. That's all. [00:23:25] Speaker A: Not because I see it you are. [00:23:27] Speaker B: Sometimes belief is you. You are white knuckled, holding on to the bar on a roller coaster. And y'all are about to do the big Dr. Again. And you're just holding on as tight as you can. And that is what worship is asking you to do sometimes is say, God. [00:23:43] Speaker A: I. [00:23:46] Speaker B: Lord, I believe, but help my unbelief. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Right, Lord. [00:23:52] Speaker B: I have faith, but help my lack of faith, God, I have no hope right now. Give me hope. And so when I'm singing, Lord, you are the promise keeper, Lord, I don't know. And I think that we get this confused also. God does not promise you a Rolex or next a next big house. I'm sorry, I'm not. God is not in the business of spoiling his children. He reserves the right to sometimes, but he is not in the business of spoiling his children, just like we are not in the business of spoiling ours. We love our children. We feed our children. We nurture our children. We care for our children. We give them far more than what they need. But we're not in the business of spoiling, and neither is the Lord. And so God's. God's favor on our life does not look like a Rolex. Okay. David was running from Saul in the wilderness. And it says that God's favor was on him. Abraham was in the promised land living in a tent. He was not settled. And he was a foreigner in the promised land. And it says God's favor was on him. God's favor does not look like we think it's going to look sometimes. And his favor is still on us. And so whenever we're singing these things and these words, we sing them with belief that God, you have not promised me the Rolex, but you promised me you're good. And those are the promises of God. He is good and his goodness towards you is faithful. Like waves on the shore, it's always coming at us. He's working together our good and for his glory. He is. He will never leave us or forsake us. He will take care of us in the lowest times. He will be with us in the highest times. He will make sure that we are always taken care of. And so those promises of God, I think we've confused that the promises of God with material, material, the desires of our heart. Yeah, I want to have kids. Whatever. [00:25:56] Speaker A: Yep. Whatever it is, right? [00:25:58] Speaker B: Whatever it is. And I think that that's what makes worship hard as well, is because it's like, well, God, you didn't give me this. So I'm not going to sing this. God, you didn't do this. So I'm not going to say this to you and the Lord, it's not a tit for tat here. Like God is the God of the universe ever creating an expansion like the universe, it's just insane. And so, so whenever we are singing songs, I think that the best thing we could possibly ever do that honors the Lord the most and has the most. If you want to sow good things and harvest a good harvest, you will sing songs whether you believe it in that moment or not. If you don't believe it, say God, I don't believe it. Help me believe it. Help me believe this. Build my faith. Grow my faith. But that's a really long answer for that's why worship is hard. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's why it's so hard. [00:26:55] Speaker B: And listen, it's hard for me too. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:58] Speaker B: When I'm. I have to tell myself, like, lord, I believe this. [00:27:03] Speaker A: Right? [00:27:03] Speaker B: And it is. [00:27:04] Speaker A: It's a reminding of our own souls, of. Of what we know to be true. Even when we're tempted to, like you said, not believe it, or we're having a hard time or we're struggling. It's just that to me, it's. It's like reading your Bible. Like you, you can read your Bible when things are hard. You can sing worship songs. You can just listen to worship songs. All of that can be worship because again, in obedience. Not that I want to make it all performance based, because I know that God is definitely in us and with us, but there is something to when I don't believe it, what can I do? Am I upholding my end of the bargain? Like you said, the people standing in the front row holding their coffee, they're there. So maybe that's what they're capable of. If I can't sing these songs and believe them, I can at least ask you to help me believe them until I do again. [00:27:57] Speaker B: Oh, and the belief is what is credited to you as righteousness. Like the belief. It's not. Gosh, we've just. We've just sometimes we've really messed things up. But. And so this is. I don't mean this as like a health and wellness prosperity gospel here, but what I come from Baptist. Listen, if you want to find the least prosperity gospel, go to the John MacArthur Baptist. There's no prosperity in this life. None whatsoever. [00:28:28] Speaker A: Okay, so. [00:28:29] Speaker B: But what I'm saying is there is a. There are spiritual ramifications to believing God whenever you don't want to. God is noticing Listen, whenever you are in your hardest times, the Lord tells us that he allows Satan to sift us. He allows our. He allows us to go through trials and struggles. But when we're. When we have children that are going through a hard time, aren't we paying a lot of attention? [00:28:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Aren't we watching? I believe in my deepest heart of hearts that whenever we are going through trials and God is allowing Satan to sift us, listen. It is for our ability to keep persevering, right? But I also believe these are the most holiest moments of our life where the Lord is watching and saying, come on, honey, like, you can do this. You can trust me. You can believe me. [00:29:25] Speaker A: It just. [00:29:25] Speaker B: It makes me cry when I think about it, because I just think that the Lord. Even the hardest times of our life are moments, especially our moments, where you can have the most holiest moments, where the Lord's eyes are on you. And he's saying, I am looking for a life to use I am looking for a heart to use the Lord's eyes search to and fro Looking for a life to use. He passes over the proud. [00:29:56] Speaker A: But he. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Uses the life of the humble and the humble say, lord, I believe you even when it is so hard to. Lord, I trust you even when it is so hard to. That is the life of the humble. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Anyway, that is so good, Megan. Thank you for your vulnerability and your authenticity, just your tenderness there. I mean, I'm sure our listeners can really just feel your heart in the moment. And like you said, that's where it's credited to us. And it doesn't necessarily mean that God is all of a sudden going to give us the desire of our heart or what it is, but it does. I do believe it shows up in different ways. And maybe it won't even happen in this lifetime. You know, there may be things that happen in another lifetime or after we have passed away and something that we have done has set a life in motion that we will maybe never even know about, but God is still going to use that, you know? So let me. I want to turn a corner here for a second. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:30:59] Speaker A: I had you crying. Let me see if you laughing. [00:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, let's. [00:31:04] Speaker A: So we were chatting. We were chatting before we hit record about righteous gemstones and celebrity culture and kind of all of that. And so I want to sit in that and talk about that for a few minutes. You have recorded with some big people. Shane and Shane, Amy Grant, Phil Wickham. So I feel like you maybe have a Unique perspective or, like, peek behind the curtain that most people don't have. As far as celebrity culture or. What do you want people to know? [00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I've recorded with some, I've opened with some, been open for some. And I think that the people that I have opened with, they don't buy into the celebrity culture. I mean, I think I don't want to name names, but. Yeah, so most people that I've ever sung with opened for anything. They don't buy in. They're. They're trying to be ministers in the same way we all are. [00:32:08] Speaker A: Listen, that statement alone is great. And you don't have to name names because I think that already cuts down the assumption that everybody with any kind of fame or success is, like, shady or has their eyes on the wrong thing. So even just that blanket statement like, hey, there are people actually out here just doing what God called them to is great. That's a good starting place. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that, you know, I think I have a lot of. I mean, even people I haven't done anything with, I have friends who have. And I think most people are just trying to love the Lord as best they can. Like, listen, now, you all, you have. [00:32:46] Speaker A: You got. [00:32:47] Speaker B: Everyone's got some bad apples, you know? Yep, there are some bad apples. But I would say, as a whole, like I. Anyone I've even heard about, they're just people trying to love the Lord, feed their families, stay married, you know, just like we all are, you know, trying to, like, live our lives. I think that inherently has its own celebrity culture. That isn't bad because it's not. Or maybe it is, I don't know. But I don't think that it's bad because it's not necessarily like a church taking on a celebrity culture. It's a person saying, hi, would you please come pay tickets to see my show. There's an element of the PR on the pragmatic side. It's like, sure, there are artists who need to sell tickets. Please come see my show. Come buy my tickets and buy my T shirts. I'm going to lead some songs that you're going to really love. We're going to worship Jesus together. But you're coming to see me, right? That's. [00:33:49] Speaker A: And this is how I feed my family. [00:33:50] Speaker B: This. Yeah, that's my. This is my job. This is how I feed my family. Whoever in lights. And that's fine because that is. That's what they do. Maybe I'm not explaining as well. So whoever's listening, please don't yeah, y'all can really hear that statement, but hear what I'm saying. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:10] Speaker B: I think it's when the celebrity culture starts permeating places where the celebrity culture shouldn't be. And that is. I mean, I think largely the celebrity culture shouldn't be in our church and find its way in our churches, because then whenever you start doing that, you just have a lot. I mean, that's when things really start unraveling. [00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:38] Speaker B: And I think that that's. That's where I have seen. As a worship leader, I've been in worship all my life. I started singing with my mom when I was five in church. But as a worship leader hired at churches, singing and leading worship at various places for however many years, I have seen, you know, that. And that has been disconcerting as I've gotten older. It was not disconcerting when I was, like, 23, sadly. But. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I know we were talking about. We were laughing about the Righteous Gemstones, and you said that. You were like, all right, well, the jig is up. Like, the show. They're. They're figuring it all out. And do you want to talk about that? [00:35:27] Speaker B: Well, I mean, at the risk of offending more people in this conversation, listen. [00:35:33] Speaker A: Our listeners are very gracious, and so. And they also really enjoy real conversation. They don't want you to come out here and, like, just use, like, you know, all the religious platitudes and whatnot. [00:35:44] Speaker B: So. Okay, well, this is why I say the jig is up, because Righteous Gemstones is not a Christian show. Anyone who's watched it will understand. It's not. I'm not saying anyone should go watch it. Yes. [00:35:57] Speaker A: We should probably make it clear that we're not. We're not recommending it. It's just something we. [00:36:01] Speaker B: Yeah. If you only watch Christian movies, like, don't go watch this. But I will say. And the jig is up. I'll say it is not made by believers. Obviously. It is not. It's on hbo. [00:36:14] Speaker A: You know, it's very much. It's very satirical. [00:36:17] Speaker B: Very satirical of a megachurch pastor and his family. And obviously, I don't know the inner workings of. Well, I know the inner workings of my family and my dad as a pastor is not even close. [00:36:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:30] Speaker B: He wasn't righteous Jim. Son's level. But. But I would say, as far as a lot of things, I look at my husband and I've said, I. I was looking at him, for one. It was a. It was the episode where they were being baptized. There was A mass baptism. [00:36:50] Speaker A: In the wave pool. [00:36:53] Speaker B: It's a mass baptism in some foreign country. And I look at corn, I'm like, well, Corey, the jig is up. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:04] Speaker B: It's been figured out. All the tricks, all of the ways we use to listen. I'm saying this from being in this world, okay? So please don't get offended again, listeners. But the ways we manipulate our services to get the outcome we want, the jig is up. And I think that's so good. Yeah, I'm so excited because that gives us as believers the opportunity to look at ourselves and say, oh, okay, the jig is up. So now what do we do? And that's exciting because that gives the Lord a real big open door to say, like, well, then what if we start fasting as a church? Like, what if we start doing things that are not fun, that are not bright, that are not flashy, that. But, you know, like, I think, okay, that's all I have to say until you ask another question. Go down a road. But I shouldn't go down. [00:38:09] Speaker A: No, I think that you're onto something. I think that as hard as it is. I was going to say has been, but it's not past tense, it's present tense. As hard as it is right now to be in the rebuilding phase of our church, like, it's so easy to want to look back to, like, pre Covid, pre. All of this stuff a few years ago, when we knew what our wins were, we knew what our successes were, we knew what worked, we knew what didn't work. And I would say there are definitely places that manipulate it. I think that word could be taken a couple different ways, but there is a systematic way of doing things. There is a side of church that's a business. We can say that, you know, and so. But then Covid stripped it all away. And so as hard as it is right now, as someone on the church staff knowing, like, we're trying to rebuild it is also so good because we are seeing what truly matters. And if we don't have enough musicians, if we don't have enough people to keep their kids in children's ministry, if we don't have the technological equipment, you know, xyz, whatever it is, are people still coming? Like, is our church still a place where when people show up, they feel the presence of God? [00:39:25] Speaker B: That's. That's it. And I think that as. I think that pre Covid. And this is not across the board. This is a generalized statement. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Sure. [00:39:39] Speaker B: But I know that for me, and the places That I have been at and I have worked at, led at whatever, across the board. We knew what worked. We knew what songs worked. We knew the musical builds that would work. We knew the transitions that would work. And we. We did it. We played our cards right. For lack of a. To say it very harshly. So I'm sorry, but I think that. Wait, what did you say? I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. Say that one more time. What were you just saying? [00:40:17] Speaker A: I don't know. Talking about how if people can show up to our church and find the presence of God. Okay, yes, yes. [00:40:25] Speaker B: And so I think that like. And that. And so all of those things, I think we played our cards so right that maybe we even didn't realize what was the presence of God and what wasn't. What was just people responding to a great moment in worship, but not the presence of God. I think even we get fooled sometimes because we do these things so well. And there are like. I went to a. I went to a Mumford and Sons concert pre Covid. Like, right before pre Covid. It was incredible. I wanted to respond the same way I do in worship. [00:41:04] Speaker A: It killed. [00:41:06] Speaker B: It was insane. And I think we do our jobs, our churches. I think churches do their jobs sometimes. Musicians, they do it so well that we have stopped realizing or we are. We don't necessarily know anymore, like, when it's the Holy Spirit at work in a room and when it's our good. Us doing our job really well. And I think the beauty of COVID is that it's stripped all that. And I think the churches that. Okay, and this is. I think that the churches that God is going to use mightily in the future are the churches that are not saying, well, let's just get back to pre Covid. Okay, we need to get back to Pre Covid. We need to do this. We need to, like, get back to this. We need to get back to that. We need to build this back up. We need to make it look like pre Covid. Let's just, hey, don't worry about what we're doing right now. Let's not even do new songs anymore. Let's just do the pre Covid songs. Let's get people comfortable with being back in the building. And then. And I think that if we're doing that, we're not realizing what God did. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Right? [00:42:15] Speaker B: God is stripping down and taking some of the cards off the table. And if we don't see that as worship leaders, as church leaders, if we don't see that, then we are being intentionally obtuse and we're ignoring God and doing. Putting our hands in our ear saying la la la la la. Instead of saying, okay, God, what are you wanting to do? Because I believe that the Lord is. The Lord obviously loves the church. That's a, that's a fact. The Lord, the church, because it's his bride. I believe that the Lord wants to actually show us the churches that will do it. Show us what his presence is and what happens when his presence is in the room. And this is not a Pentecostal charismatic statement. This can. If we are in a church that's in a body of believers together, that's his bride and he wants to show himself to us. [00:43:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:17] Speaker B: And. And so I will say I'm here for it. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Me too. [00:43:27] Speaker B: I will also say I was having pre Covid. I don't know. I don't. Maybe this. Was this happening to you Pre Covid, like 2019, were you like having conversations where with your like ministry friends saying, so is this it? Is this what? Is this what this is? So we're just gonna like, I guess we're just gonna keep doing the light thing since 2000, you know, like Hayes thing. We're gonna keep doing the big worship thing. We're gonna keep doing. We're gonna keep same like. So is this what this is? It's just like I was having that conversation with multiple worship leader friends in 2019 of saying, Wait, but where's the presence of God? [00:44:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:15] Speaker B: Where's the movement of the Holy Spirit? Where's our obedience to that? On the Sunday versus planning center multi tracks. Do it bang. Done. Church is over by 12:00. Get to lunch. Like, where's the presence and the movement of God? And I think good. [00:44:36] Speaker A: I think that what as a pastor, you know, ministry leader, I think what I noticed the biggest difference in I feel. I do definitely feel like God is stripping away systems and he's stripping away all that we knew and saying, not only look what I did, but look what I'm doing now. And are you going to come with me? And one of the biggest differences that I've noticed is in ownership of people. Where before. See, my pre Covid conversations were more like, how do we get them to care outside of this hour on Sunday? And I'm sure that there were some that did. But that was my biggest concern was like, how do I get you to understand how God doesn't live in this building, you know, just on Sunday morning? And that's what I really have seen a big Difference in. At least in our church. And I love it so much, and I'm so proud of our people, and I think it's so beautiful. But it's a fact of, hey, all the systems that you loved, the best coffee, the coffee bar, the thriving m kids, the kids that could go, you know, to the bounce house for second service. Like, all of these bonus extra things that you loved are gone, but you're coming back now. And I feel like they're finding the presence of God more on their own, not because we're feeding it to them, but because they're actually showing up and going, I have ownership of this. And not only do I want God and I want Jesus for myself, but I get it so much now that I can't help but going out and, like, becoming church to the world and taking it outside to other people. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Beautiful. That's incredible. That's. That's. That's the best. I think that that's just so honoring to the Lord because that's what the church is. And when the church was started, when the church began with the apostles, creat churches in all of these towns, the disciples creating churches, and that's what the church was. It was just like, we're going to be the church. Exactly like we're going to be it. We don't come to a building on Sunday. [00:46:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:46:41] Speaker B: And, well, we do. Myself and we do too come to a building, judge the coffee, you know, sit in the back when I'm not leading, you know, whatever, right? Sneak in, sneak out, whatever. But we get to be it. And I believe that, like, I think that as worship leaders, there is a generation of worship leaders that pre Covid were looking at each other saying, wait, is this. So this. This is what this is. So this is. This is the. This is the jig. This is the gig. Is it jig or gig? [00:47:16] Speaker A: I think it's jig. [00:47:18] Speaker B: Well or gig. [00:47:19] Speaker A: I think it depends. The jig is up. But then you do a gig. You have to. [00:47:23] Speaker B: And then this is the. This is the gig. This is the situation. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Where I believe that. And I think that there was even some just, like, jadedness starting to, like, happen in worship leaders of just like, saying, okay, just sing, just sing. Just sing, just sing. Okay, you need to lead worship here Tuesday night for the Bible study. Then you need to be here for women's. Then you need to be here then Sunday morning and then Sunday night and just keep singing, Keep singing. And then through Covid is like, keep singing. We got to get used to And I think that that worship leaders were looking around saying, wait. But I just think that there was a jadedness and maybe a numbness that was happening because I just remember talking with so many of my friends, just being like, who are worship leaders? Most of my friends are worship leaders. Yeah. Who are just. Who were just, like, feeling that way, myself included. Like, but what, Lord? Like, this is what. This is it, you know? [00:48:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:22] Speaker B: And I go ahead. [00:48:24] Speaker A: So what do you think the future of worship is? Like, we've. [00:48:27] Speaker B: You've. [00:48:28] Speaker A: You. You're alluding to, like, pre Covid. Like, what do you think? And. And we both are in agreement that worship church cannot look like it did. What do you think the future of worship is? [00:48:41] Speaker B: Okay, so two ways. I think the future of worship, if it's a church that's like, we got to get back, then the future of worship is dead. [00:48:49] Speaker A: Okay, say that. [00:48:51] Speaker B: I think that. So that future of worship, you. And you can choose to be a part of it or not. Like, I'm going to be like, no, please spare me. I'm not going to wake up in the morning to go to that. You know, Like, I like to sleep. Oh, my gosh. I was leading at this one church, and she was like, Bedside Baptist and Apostle Pillowcase or something like that. And I was like, yeah, that's what I like, too. But if you are a church that is like, wait, we can't go back. I mean, to go back would be to not be living in reality. This is the new. Then I think that the future of worship is something that is beautiful and real, that is authentic. [00:49:37] Speaker A: Okay. [00:49:37] Speaker B: So I lead worship everywhere, but I lead worship. Or I'm a part of this, like, just worship group that is a lot of worship leaders who come together about once a month. And it's called Gather House, and it's in Houston, and it is real. And so the only thing that matters is that we trust one another to, like, lead. Like, no one's trying to control one another. And then we trust the Lord and we authentically love and worship Jesus. And I believe that that is the future of worship. I pray that that's the future of worship. Because then the questions will not be like, oh, this transition was so bad. I mean, those will not be the priorities. That won't be. [00:50:27] Speaker A: It'll still be part of the process. [00:50:29] Speaker B: Still part of the process. [00:50:30] Speaker A: But it's like, it won't be the main point. [00:50:32] Speaker B: It won't be the main point. It won't be like, well, people weren't crying enough People weren't responding. People weren't raising their hands enough. We didn't. And the one question will be like, wait, did you sense the Holy Spirit working in the room? Did you sense that whenever they were praying? I believe that the Spirit of. Or the future of worship, hopefully, is like in the middle of a song, you just sense that there needs to be a moment of prayer where we. [00:51:00] Speaker A: Just pray together, like I love, and. [00:51:02] Speaker B: You just do it. And I think that there is. I pray that there may this be prophecy. I'm not from that world. But may it be that we are so obedient as churches to the Spirit of God because it's the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives in us and dwells in us, or the Holy Spirit also searches the depths of God. It says that in psalms. And so it's just like the Holy Spirit who knows the heart of God and the Holy Spirit who lives in us. May we be obedient? Because that would be the smartest thing to do, is to be obedient to the Holy Spirit who searches the heart of God in our churches on Sunday morning. May that be the number one question. Okay. Were you as obedient as you could be to the Spirit of God on Sunday morning? And may there be so much success from that meaning, May people walk out the door saying, never in my life did I experience the Lord in this way until now. I pray that that is the future of worship, because then worship will no longer be. I don't know if I can say this or not, so you can edit it out, calling people out. But then no longer worship will no longer be the measuring stick of Hillsong. Were we better? Were we right at. Were we not as good? Were we. Are we doing what they're doing? Do we have the same lights? Do we have the same lingo? Do we wear the same things? Do we look like them? The measuring stick will not be that or other churches like that. The measuring stick will be looking at our people, the people we're called to shepherd, by the way, people like God has given you to shepherd. [00:52:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:40] Speaker B: Saying, did the Lord move? Did the Holy Spirit work? Were people repenting of their sins? Did people come to a saving knowledge and faith of who Jesus is. Like, that is the future of worship. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think it starts with, I mean, a lot of things, but I think one of the things is remembering that worship leaders, musicians, all of those people are not performers. And when I say remembering, I don't mean the people that are coming to church. I'm talking church Staffers remembering that they're not performers there to do a job, even if they do show up and get paid for that time, but that they have to be discipled. They have to have their hearts cared for. They have to be shepherd and pastored, just like all the people that are coming to attend. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Oh, yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. I totally agree. Yeah. [00:53:32] Speaker A: All right, well, let me ask you one last question, and then I will let you go. I need to know if you have a favorite worship song. Like, what I really want to know is if there's a worship song that you don't like because you've, like, sung it to death or, like, into the ground. But if you don't want to answer that one. Is there a favorite. Is there one that you always like? It always brings you back maybe. [00:53:55] Speaker B: Okay. Gosh. Okay. I have a lot of not favorites because I have, you know, you have to sing on so much. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:08] Speaker B: Okay. So I have been. So I get to lead in different churches almost every Sunday. And it's been so fun because I've been leading at a church that is basically. They're a gospel church that kind of integrates some, like, CCM things. So I've been singing songs that are, like, really out of my wheelhouse normally. I'm just basically in white evangelical churches that sing Hillsong, Elevation, Passion, and then every now. And. Oh, Jesus Culture. And then every now and then some random. Right. But basically your bread and butter are those four. [00:54:50] Speaker A: Yeah, every. [00:54:51] Speaker B: I know all of them. Every single one. I would say there's a lot that I don't like. But I will say the songs that take me back are. Oh, Praise the Name I love. Oh, Praise the Name. I think that I could just sing that and be happy. Or I. I don't get tired of that. And then everything else. I. I'm fine whenever it's time to retire them. [00:55:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:16] Speaker B: And bring them back. But I would say that I really have started loving hymns. But don't like. Not in a boomer kind of way or not. Let's get back to the hymns. But I love the theology in them, and I love the depth of them. And I do. That's one of the things that in songwriting, what I really wanted to do and what I've started doing is how do we bring in the who God is? And it's not necessarily, like, about who God is to me and what I can do through God. And I can have. It's not even about, like, I can have hope and I can have peace because of you, Jesus, Right. But it's like the songs that saying, jesus, you were with the Israelites in the desert, and you're with me now. And you. You have never left, and you will never. Just like the declaration of who the Lord is. I just love that. And so that's kind of the songs that I do love. Off the top of my head, though. It's like a praise the name. I can list off eight songs that I don't like. [00:56:25] Speaker A: But. [00:56:28] Speaker B: Positive, you know, I've already called out, like, the top churches. [00:56:34] Speaker A: It's funny because there's one in particular that our staff knows that I can't stand. And it's not that it's a bad song. It's that we sang it 50, 11 times in a matter of, like. You know what I mean? It was not. And now I'm like, if I hear it, I, like, lunge across the room to hit next on my computer. Because I'm like, I can't. It's just too much sometimes. [00:56:53] Speaker B: It's triggering. Oh, their songs are. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [00:56:57] Speaker A: Too many times. Megan, this has been so fun. Where can people find you if they want to hear your music or book you to come out? Where can they find you? [00:57:06] Speaker B: Okay, they can find me. If you're wanting to book me, don't DM me on Instagram because I will think that you're scamming me. But you can go to Everything is just Megan Thurman because we were talking about before we recorded. My name is spelled very weird, but that means that I can have everything. Just my name with no numbers, nothing. But it's M A G E N. Megan Thurman. That's on Instagram, that's on Spotify, that's MeganThurmond.com. everything is just that awesome. You can thank my mom for that. [00:57:42] Speaker A: Yes, we will. We will link it all up in the show notes as well. Friends, thank you for listening. Make sure you share the show. Send it to your worship leader friends, send it to your pastor friends and help rate and review so other people can find the show as well. [00:57:57] Speaker B: Five stars only. [00:57:58] Speaker A: Five stars only. That's right. Hey, if you write a good, funny review, maybe I'll read it here. You can be, like, podcast famous something. I don't know. All right, guys, we'll see you next time. [00:58:10] Speaker B: Bye.