Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young and my guest today is Mark Demoz, someone I have known and done ministry with for years. He's here to speak to a very timely topic and in this, the year of our Lord 2026, which is peace and more specifically, becoming more like Jesus as peacemakers. If you find yourself overwhelmed with the noise of the news, the barrage of hot takes on social media, or the injustice that so many people are facing right now, my prayer is that this conversation will not only bring you some peace, but also spur you on to help create peace for others.
Mark Demoz, pastor and author and friend. Welcome back actually to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: No, super excited to be with you, Kristen. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't. I should have looked up. The last time that you were on. I don't know, was an episode early, early on when, you know, people weren't actually listening and now they are. So I knew I had to have you back.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Well, I love that and I love your, your grit and resilience and just staying with it and I've seen some of your reels and different things. So you've just done a great job with this and building an audience not just about, you know, numbers and size, but really a meaningful approach you've taken. So I really appreciate what you've done.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Thank you. Listen, before we get into your latest book, you are the directional leader of the Mosaics global network. So tell the people that are listening a little bit about this passion of yours for the church and how it got started.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. As you know, I started a healthy multi ethnic church in 2001. Felt led of God to do that at a time when very few people were even thinking that was possible.
In Little Rock, Arkansas, in the urban center, Highest violent crime, 30% poverty, 67% of kids growing out with dads in the home, without dads in the home. I should say the way I grew up in the 1960s and really just determined to Matthew 5:16, if you will. Let them see our good work bringing diverse men and women together, as we say, to walk, work, worship God together as one to advance a credible witness in an increasingly diverse and as we all know, painfully polarized society. So that started in 2001, wet behind the ears, kind of like your podcast, just waiting in fire, aim ready kind of thing. And several Years later in 2004, I met Dr. George Yancey an African American sociologist who is now at the Baylor University, then at University of North Texas. And one thing led to another. And so we did a little gathering. We had 30 people in Dallas, Texas. We called it Mosaics with an X.
Mosaics global network.
Number one X at the time meant what's next? Like Gen X back then. And it symbolized what's coming. It symbolized multiplication.
We called it a global network. Kristen. It wasn't even a local network. I mean, we had 30 people at our first little gathering, I always say, you know, counting literally. The sound man, the dog that ran across the yard, the pizza delivery guy.
So started just like you, humble beginnings, but just stayed at it. Now, 21 years later, you know, has become very impactful, certainly in the United States and really in other parts of the world, to advance a, and to champion a cause, providing resources, writing, conferencing, coaching cohorts to help people establish healthy, multi ethnic, economically diverse churches, as were, as was the case, I should say, in the first century church. Every church that Paul established was filled with men and women, Jews and gentiles, rich and poor, to advance a credible gospel. Not just to talk about, you know, God loves everyone, but to demonstrate that God in fact does love everyone, that the local church would be a little embassy, if you will, of the kingdom of heaven. Revelation 7, 9, Every nation, tribe, people and tongue. And so that's essentially what Mosaic's global network has done. All these proliferated this understanding theologically, sociologically, and providing resourcing to pastors and planters throughout the United States and elsewhere to advance that healthy, multi ethnic church vision that lean that then got us involved, if you will, in cultural intelligence training and assessment, nonprofit creation and community engagement efforts. And of course, some of the latest work in the last five, six years on what we call church economics, helping churches become economically sustainable scale their missional vibrancy, I should say. But then to do it in a smart way, to get away from sole dependence on tithes and offerings. So as fast as I can tell you, that's what Mosaics global network does. And it's rooted in the local church, as you know.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's so I always have to remind myself, Mark, whenever we, you know, you invite me to a zoom or we talk about multi ethnic churches, because I'm so in the weeds of it that I forget that it's not quite yet like the norm and it's not what everybody gets to experience. And so I am honored. Thank you for letting me be part of this, you know, you know this. The listeners may not know this, but even as I'm like sitting behind my own microphone here, as a female leader in ministry, I don't get a lot of opportunities. And Naim has done a lot, you know, to help me develop my gifts and skills. But you saw something in me, I think, the first time that we met. And so I just want to publicly thank you for making my voice feel important and needed and for giving me a space to come alongside you in this work where you really are living out and leading by example. All of the things that you just said about the diversity of people.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Well, I appreciate. You certainly don't have to say thank you, but I appreciate you saying thank you. But, hey, you're very easy to invest in. I mean, it's not because you're a woman. It's not because of anything. It's because you got the chops. I mean, you, you know, you, you embody this. You are passionate about it. You lead with excellence. And hey, man, I want that person on the team, so to speak. So I really appreciate it. But yeah, you're this. Just who you are and who God's wired you to be. And I'm just as grateful to work with you as you are, perhaps, to work with me.
But I thank you for who you are and what you've done and you and Naim, what you created there in Charlotte and still creating. And that's what I love. You're not a consultant, you're a practitioner. Right. You're doing this every day. Your stories aren't. Oh, yeah. Ten years ago when I did this, it's like, oh, like 10 hours ago we were dealing with this. Right. So anyway, I appreciate you, Kristin.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Yes, well, thank you, Mark. So we're here to talk about your. What number book is this for you?
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Technically my ninth in terms of print publishing. Eighth. I have an E book, but yes, my eighth book.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: Okay, so. And it is called make me an instrument of your peace Becoming more like Jesus through the prayer of St. Francis. How did you know? You know, you've got books that are about creating multi ethnic communities and economic sustainability. Like, you talked about how. But most of those are for ministry leaders. How did you know it was time to write this book for like, quote, unquote, regular people?
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a great question and very insightful. Yes. Every book that I've written to date is aimed at the upper echelon, if you will, of the American church. You're really aimed at a thimble full of people at the top of denominations and organizations that can influence in the ways we've been talking about. But yeah, this is literally the first book I've, I've intentionally written to people in the pews, so to speak, at a broader level, by the way, Catholic, Protestant, orthodox, evangelical, mainline. So it was intentionally written to be very broad based because frankly, every Christian needs to walk out and embody the prayer of St. Francis and really modeled their lives after Matthew 5, 9, identifying with Christ as a peacemaker. The genesis for the book though is just over two years ago when we were coming around. Let's see, I think that would have been 2024 to our next teaching series. Typically we do a teaching series from January through April.
And as I was thinking about that coming up, I have a team of three other teaching pastors and we were about to go into a meeting in a few, a couple of weeks. It was a Christmas season and one thing led to another and I thought, you know, we need to lean into this prayer. Part of that was because the pandemic, if you will, we came out of that in 2022. And I like to tell pastors at Christian that there was a pre pandemic church, there was a pandemic church, and then there was a post pandemic church. And I know you guys are like 20 years old, we're 24, so. But all that goes away because in a sense we're all just like 3 years old, right? Because that 2022, we got a whole new church and we had new people. And you think about formation and these folks are coming from all kinds of varying backgrounds, everything from people who don't know Jesus, to leaving other churches or moving to the city. And so we really approach this like formation and taking Matthew 5, 9, blessed are the peacemakers, they shall be called the children of God. And so we built that in. We did a four month series on the peace prayer line by line, which essentially became the genesis of the book.
But in talking to our church there, as we kicked it off our church, like your church, we do an outstanding job of engaging our community. We collectively identify with Christ as peacemakers. We are a peacemaker church, if you will, and advance that cause and identify with Christ, meeting people at the bridge of Christ humanity. So I said to our folks, I said, I know you know and I know our church gets this like we are a peacemaking church 100%. We all know that collectively.
But I said, I don't know if you are. And you really, you don't know if I am right because we don't live together. We don't, you know, 24 7. We're not in the same house. So I assume you do and you assume me. But let's really dive deep at an individual level and say, what can you do? What can I do individually to embody peacemaking, identify with Christ? And so that's what led to the series. And right away, Kristen, I just recognized, yeah, this is a timely message in a book. And part of the reason for that too was that I was raised as I talk about in the book, I was raised Jesuit Catholic. I went to Catholic schools, worked my way on work scholarships through a Jesuit college prep program.
And so as an altar server growing up Catholic, I was extremely familiar with this prayer. It was a regular part of the rhythm and the teaching of the Catholic Church.
But then at 19 years old when I to leaned more into my faith, if you will, of Christ as a Christ follower and that put me into the Protestant side of the house, so to speak.
For 43 years I've been a full time ministry and I, I don't know that I'd ever heard the peace prayer recited in a church that I've been to.
I don't know that it was ever publicized. I can, I presume, in some churches people might be familiar, but the vast majority of the Protestant church that I've been familiar with for 43 years doesn't even know this prayer exists. Or certainly they might know it, but they've never leaned into it. And for such a time as this, I think all Christians really need to understand this prayer, live it out for the reading we said. So all to say, I approached Now Press, they'd wanted to do a book with me for some time and David Zimmerman, great publisher, picked it up and here we are two years later. As you know, it takes a long time to get a book out if you're going to go that route. And I'm just thrilled to see you hold it in your hand. And of course it releases on March 3rd.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And we will get a little bit more into this. We're going to ease people in. But I just think, Mark of the providential timing of God, that you wrote this two years ago and it is coming out now in a time when holy smokes, we need more peacemakers.
We'll get there. I do want to know in the poem, the first half of the poem I'm going to read to you and then I want to know if there's one of these lines in particular that you feel the most drawn To.
So it starts and it says, lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me so love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith. Where there is despair, hope. Where there is darkness, light. And where there is sadness, joy. Which one of those sticks with you, Mark?
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, every one of them, of course, but the three, the top three on that, of course, being, you know, purveyors of hope, being people of faith and of light. But, you know, in. In particularly in our time right now, you think about hatred and love. Everybody is an enemy. Right. You're either with me, you're against me.
That's political. That's even in the church world. Right. And that we see that in the segregation of the church, not only in terms of color, class, and culture, but politics today, in the angst and the divisiveness of our times, in cancel culture, as you might say. Yeah, everybody's just bowed up, taking sides.
And particularly for Christians, we're prone to make statements and prone to be direct, but we've lost our witness. And all that goes to the act of love. Like Christ not only loved his friends, but he loved his enemies and even on the cross. Right, Father, forgive them.
Generally speaking, the Christian church, certainly in America and Christians in general, have lost that attitude, lost that witness.
And so when I think about what breaks through, my wife Linda and I were talking actually this morning. We try to start the day with coffee and have a little conversation around the word and stuff. But we were literally talking about today how in heaven, there is no faith. In heaven, there is no hope.
But what will last is love. Like, there will be love in heaven. But you don't need faith because, hey, we're there and we see. And, you know, you don't need hope because we're in heaven. Right. But love is enduring. And so when I think about those, to answer your question, I'd say in a world filled with hate, yeah, we have got to embody the love of Christ and to do that in a way that's compelling and attractive to the gospel.
And this prayer, of course, can help us.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Okay, well, in humility, Mark, I also want to know, is there one of those that you personally find more challenging than maybe the others?
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, 100%.
Right away. Yeah, right away. In the front of the book, Christine, you know, I say, hey, now, look, I am not saying I am God's gift to peacemaking. Let's just get absolutely clear about that. My biological father, I didn't know, but he was a Sicilian. His Parents came from Sicily. My grandmother on his side came from what today is Kiev or Ukraine. She was a Russian Jew. So I've got that Mediterranean explosive.
Yeah, you know, I know Naim is so calm and so, just peaceful coming from him. But no, seriously, I just, yeah, I am definitely not God's gift to it. But in terms of challenging, I think it's probably collective versus any one of those, I suppose, you know, in terms of advancing love or forgiveness or being light in the midst of darkness, all of those are in play. And what is most challenging to me when I say they're all in play is I have opinions, I have thoughts. I, you know, I'm just like everybody. I read the news, I see things and I'm prone to speak, I'm prone to say something. I'm prone to, I want to give my opinion, if you will. Right. And so I suppose in a simple way, holding my tongue is challenging. But, you know, I have learned to do that. I've learned to lean into it for a couple of reasons. One is, and I literally just wrote an article for Outreach on this, I think the entire, well, really the entire country. But let's just talk about Christians. We've been influenced at least for the last 10, 15 years with a phrase, silence is complicity.
And not only that phrase, silence is complicity, but then given the tools of a smartphone where you can literally speak to however many follow, you have instantly that has put us in the mode again of making direct statements and offering opinions, but losing our witness in the process.
And it's challenging that you. What's most challenging? Yeah, that is the most challenging because I got feelings and opinions and thoughts just like the best of them, just like you do. But I, I, but, but knowing what is my lane? What has God put me on this planet to do? Hey, if I want to be a politician, I should just quit this and run for office, go be a part. I'm not an educator at a university.
Right. I'm not a businessman. So when you think about, I'm not a foreign intelligence officer. I don't work for the State Department.
All I know is what I read, just like everybody else. But what I am called to do is be a full time pastor. And Christ died with his arms outstretched. And if you think about that metaphor, his right arm is extended and his left arm extended. And he doesn't drop the right arm for the left, he doesn't drop the left arm for the right. He holds everyone in tension.
And tension in this metaphor is where the unity is and that's what I believe I'm called to do. I believe that's what our church is called to do in terms of peacemaking is to be there, to be light, to be hope, to be forgiveness, to embody love, holding everyone intention, whether that, you know, men, women, black, white, rich, poor, Republican, Democrat, you don't drop one for the other. But I've seen a lot of Christian friends of mine and pastors through the years because, you know, leaning into this, we don't want to be complicit. So they speak out now on that phrase.
And this is what I wrote in the article.
That's a dogmatic statement. And one of the ways we actually advance peace is by not making dogmatic statements. So silence is complicity, is a dogmatic statement, but it's not accurate. The more accurate nuanced way to say that is silence can be complicity, but silence isn't always complicity. Solomon calls silence wisdom.
James defines it as moral discipline.
Like Solomon, there's a time to speak and there's a time to be silent. James be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. And so silence certainly can be complicity, but it can also be an act of moral discipline or an act of wisdom, depending on context and timing. So I feel like we have been.
It's weighted because of technology and this phrase that we haven't stepped back to know when to speak, when to be silent, and to recognize there are many ways to speak, and words are one of them.
So I think for all of those reasons, when you said, what is the most challenging? It's staying in my lane. So I don't.
So that I can advance this message of Christ, advance the message of gospel to all people, not just some people. And if you will, biting my tongue in order to do that. Right. Just staying focused. What is your calling? Stay focused on it. And don't let the noise around you suck you in, where all of a sudden you'll give up your opportunity to witness. You'll give up that place of holding, like Christ, arms outstretched to all people, not just some. And that is challenging.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it is challenging. There are times that I have felt there are. I'll say both. There are times that I wanted to respond, just to put my opinion out there, because I'm. I can get emotionally reactive. And then there are other times that I do feel like Holy Spirit is prompting me as a leader, going, okay, people do need some pastoral guidance maybe, as opposed to whatever the hot takes are on this. But those always come, Mark with Me of like a type it all out and then sit and wait and listen and discern. And sometimes those words make it out, and sometimes they are. They don't at all. And sometimes they get an edit, you know. And so just to clarify for people, you're not saying that leaders should never speak out about anything, but in wisdom and discernment, yes, we should listen to the Holy Spirit before we just get out there with our hot takes and reactions.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. That's why I say silence can be complicit. And we certainly don't want to be complicit in evil or complicit injustice.
But it's not always complicity. It's like a card game. And you have to know when to play the card and when not to play the card and what deck God has given you. That's your calling. Right. And to stay in that lane, because that's what becomes most effective. You, you see this with Hollywood actors. Like, your expertise is to be an actor, but then you're up on a stage, I don't know, the Grammys or something, and you're waxing eloquent on politics and, you know, nothing more than the average person because we're all reading the same news and, you know, but you're an actor and then you stray. Or people find in they have expertise, they've gotten traction in one field, and then they just presume that if they step or cross lines into another field, that they will be received with all the accolades and all the credibility that this their. Their field. And that is. That's really.
That that's a fault. It doesn't happen. And that's a wrong assumption is what I'm trying to say. So what has God called me to? What has God given me expertise in. And I don't want to be complicit, but I also want to exercise wisdom and moral discipline, know when to play a card, when not to play a card, because that's actually how you'll cut through the noise. And when you see particularly pastors and. Or Christians commenting on everything from the super bowl halftime show, like, what is the cause of the day? Right, whatever. Because as we know in the, in this time, and it's been like this for a while, every single day, there is something.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah. If not hourly.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: And then you see pastors or they're just everything they weigh in on with a direct statement, with an opinion, with a dogmatic statement, and nobody's listening, but you go home, well, I don't be complicit. Yeah, but nobody listened. Because the thing, in my opinion, Kristen, whatever it is, politics, or if I have an opinion about something, even Christ, right, Working, advancing the gospel with people who don't know him as we do, shouldn't the goal be to win someone who doesn't think like you, who doesn't believe like you, who doesn't see things like you? Shouldn't the goal in our communication, in our speaking, in whatever we do, shouldn't the goal be to try to move them, you know, at least one step, if not all the way to what I understand, to what I believe, to my opinion that should be the goal, but not playing to what I call an effective base. And that's also what is so often happening today, which all goes against peacemaking, right? Because then you say, I don't know, let's say it's a Republican position, and you go all in on a Republican or Democrat and. And then you get likes and retweets and you get all this affirmation from who?
The people who believe like you.
And what. And the people who don't believe like you, what do they do? They. They unfriend you, right? They cancel. They. They're not listening and you're playing to the wrong group because they already get it. Let's think about how we can nuance and advance peace and understanding amongst people who don't think like us on every issue, but most centrally for us as pastors, of course, reaching those who don't know Jesus, spiritually open skeptics with a credible message of God's love for all people.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's that tension that you were talking about, right? Like, if it's easy to throw it out, we're not sitting in the tension. That should be our first flag of like, hold on, maybe we should back it up here a minute.
Do you think? You know, you mentioned all the chaos in the world, right? All the division, all the argument.
It feels like peace is getting harder and harder to find at times.
So what do you think it is, specifically for Christians that we're getting wrong about peace?
[00:23:31] Speaker B: That's a very good question.
When I think about that question. What are we getting wrong about peace? I, of course, also think about what is peace and what could we get right about peace? And peace is not just sitting there with your hands folded and silent and quiet and being all peaceful as we think. It's very active, actually. I mean, Christ was a peacemaker. So just think about the life of Christ. He's not sitting around the room every day lighting Incense and praying to his heavenly Father. He's active, he's engaged, he's meeting people, you know, in terms of the bridge of Christ, humanity and healing and feeding and doing all that. And yes, also talking about spiritual things. So when we think about what is right about peace and peacemaking before we get to what's wrong about how we approach it, Christ is the example and it's active. Peace is active. It's something you do, it's something you put. In fact, in the peace prayer in the front of the book, I provide not only the common English translation, but then the actual French in which it was written. And then I provide the literal translation of that French prayer. And it literally says so in English, we would say, where there is hatred, let me so love, right? And so of course, as a farming term, we're planting a seed, but it's a little bit abstract unless you're agriculturally inclined or whatever. But the literal French says put. It says, where there is hatred, let me put love where there is injury. Let me put forgiveness, right? And that word, put, let me. It's. It's more active, it's more concrete. I'm going to put love where hate exists. I'm going to put forgiveness where injury or offense exists. And so all to say, we see Christ putting peace, if you will, in an active way. So that's what peace is. And then in Matthew, chapter five, nine.
Well, even back up in the second chapter of the book, we're talking Isaiah 61, Luke chapter four.
I'm looking at where in the world would this anonymous writer. And by the way, St. Francis didn't write the prayer. He wouldn't even know what you're talking about. It was erroneously attributed to him in the 1940s, during World War II. It's an anonymous author writing in French in Paris in 1912.
And so I imagine in the second chapter, where would this person could have been a man, could have been a woman, would have gotten the theology of this prayer? Where did it come from? Well, it comes from Isaiah 61, in my opinion, where the promise of the Anointed One, the Messiah, the Christ is coming and he's going to. And there's all these oppositional statements. Hey, you know, where you had no joy, he's going to give you back joy. You know, where you were down, he's going to lift you up. And. And so there's all these oppositional statements that are associated with the Anointed One and his coming down the road.
In Luke chapter four, Christ basically says, I'm that guy reads the scroll, reads Isaiah, it's fulfilled in your midst today. He owns that anointing. He says, I am that Christ. I am the anointed One. Now think about that as capital A. When we call ourselves Christians, we are therefore. And once, of course, we come to know him by faith. We have that same anointing on us to right the wrongs, to, to, you know, all the things that talked about in Isaiah 61 or even in this prayer where there's hate to so love. We are little anointed ones. We have a little A, we're a little C Christian, right? We are in the shadow of the capital C, Christ and the capital A, anointed one who's come to right wrongs and bring justice and all that. We are supposed to do the same thing we have and live under that same anointing. Little A and little C, if you will, in terms of being a Christ and Messiah, a Christian, if you will. And so not only does he identify with that in Luke 4, but then Matthew 5. Nine in the Sermon on the Mount, he says, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. Now, when you study the Beatitudes, which our church is literally studying right now, every Beatitude, you get something for what you do, right? Blessed are those who mourn, they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, they will get the earth, they will inherit the earth. There's only one Beatitude where you don't get something for what you do or how you live. You're identified with someone for who you are and what you do, and that's Matthew 5. 9. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be identified with.
With Christ, right? Because that's what he was. Capital P, peacemaker. And I'm to wear that anointing, embody that peacemaking and be identified with Him. Now what we're getting wrong then, about peace is just to use a metaphor, we're dropping one arm to go all in on the other arm. We are trying to eliminate tension for our own lives, in our own lives. So we silo. We get in churches and silo ourselves to people who look and think and act and vote, etc. Like us.
And again, in that metaphor, that's like dropping one arm and we're doing that. Not only are we putting the others and seeing them as our enemy, even if they are our enemy, we're called to love our enemy, but. But we not only see others who don't think, look, act, etc. Vote Like Us as Enemies.
But not only that, but. But we also then have given up our witness to that very population that might otherwise need the message of Christ and who we are. So we're not walking in our anointing. We're making statements. And at the expense of our witness.
We're not only getting siloed and allowing ourselves to be silent to eliminate the tension in our lives.
We're not leaning into the tension where that unity. And that's where the work is. It's in the tension.
And so, in part, again, what we're getting wrong is moving away from tension rather than run to the tension. And you run to the tension with nuance, you run to the tension with love, you run to the tension. Not to win.
Right. But to be a witness.
And part of some of the principles of peacemaking, of course, is assuming the best in others. Right. Or as you mentioned, pausing before you speak and acknowledging complexities and thinking with nuance and trying to add balance to a conversation.
And all of these things are some of the practical tools of peacemaking. But in my opinion, those are some of the things we get wrong with peacemaking.
And why is. Because we forget our anointing. We're not walking in the anointing of Christ, in the identification with Christ, and we've allowed the world to suck us into its ways. It's just like Peter in the boat, right? When he's walking on the water, he's looking.
He. He's got Christ in the. In the, in the, you know, the windshield, right? Yeah.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: But when he. When he gets distracted, he sinks. And that is it metaphorically as well, what we're getting wrong. Keep your eyes on the prize.
You are called to be a little. A anointed one. You are called to do the work of Isaiah 61. You are called to be identified with Christ as a peacemaker, which means you've got to be. Not you lifted up, but he gets lifted up. And it says, if I'm lifted up, I draw all people.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: Not just some people to myself. So how we get wrong with it, because we're only playing to some people.
We have to play to all people on his behalf. And in part, that's what we're getting wrong.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: When I see that for a lot of Christians as well, that, that's. That you. You just touched on it, Mark. The distraction is like a self.
We want to. We want to elevate ourselves. Like you said, if we can say the things and we get the likes and we get the comments and we get the following and whatever we already have got it wrong. Where we are letting that become the distraction from doing the work of righting the wrongs. And it's, I think a lot of people like to talk about it, right, talk about what's wrong and talk about what other people should do to fix it. But as Christians, yeah, we have to stop doing that, keep our focus on Jesus, not be distracted by what we can gain from our opinions and instead actually do the work of the anointing that we have to not talk about righting the wrongs, but actually live them out and make it happen in the way that we live our lives, you know, according to the gospel.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, you, I haven't really thought about it like this before, but just listening to maybe a pithy way of saying that is we're chasing influence, not impact.
And influence is a lot easier for a variety of reasons. But impact is slow.
Impact is the, is chasing the fruit of long obedience in the same direction.
Impact requires passion and prayer and patience and persistence and resilience and, and influence is quick, it's fleeting. Yeah, right. Because I mean, I, you know, I don't have like major followers or whatever, but let's just say I had a hundred thousand followers, you know, and then I dropped dead like on Instagram or whatever. Okay. I dropped. Oh man, so sad. Mark's gone. Boy, I really, really loved his reels, you know, But a week later, but yeah, a week later that I'm not posting reels anymore. And those hundred thousand, you know, they might just sit there on a dead account, I don't know.
But impact is long lasting. Yeah. And impact is when I do the work, it's, I'm not using words, I'm doing the work. And again, that's what, you know, people in our society in general, they want to talk a lot. They want influence, they want, Right. But they don't want to do the work. And the, and the long term work that's required to truly impact structures, to truly impact not just a life, but structures that requires a lot and a lot of time and a lot of resilience.
And you know, in a fast food society, we don't pay that price. Much easier to download an app and create a reel and post it than actually go out on the streets and not only, you know, give a man a fish or teach him a fish, but help them own the pond, as our good friend Dr. John Perkins once said. So influence over impact. I'm taking impact every day, every week and twice on Sunday.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: Yes, me too. Well, and you kind of, you know, leading into this mark, one of the things that you do in this book, which I really appreciate is you are just honest about the fact that like, it's going to cost something. You know, a lot of Christians say they want unity, but only if it doesn't cost them anything.
So how do you encourage to like move people forward truthfully, while letting them know, like, it will cost you something to be a peacemaker.
[00:34:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
When I think about my own life and in part into that book, it is costly because unity, peacemaking, you are literally just take unity in terms of the collective, multi ethnic church. That is literally when you champion that vision and you lean into that vision, that is literally like walking up to the gates of hell and flipping off Satan to his face. The number one, the number one enemy. I'm sorry, the number one weapon of Satan is division.
That's, that's the, that's the nuclear weapon. That's, that's the big thing is division. Capital D division. Ephesians, chapter 6. And he wants to divide husbands and wives, he wants to divide children. He wants to divide us politically. He wants us to divide us along the lines of color, class, culture, whatever. All of it is rooted in division.
And when you say, hey, I'll take that on, or you say, not on my watch, you are literally giving the bird to Satan at the gates of hell and daring to go in opposition to him and create unity, not division.
And he loses power in that. He loses all kinds of stuff. So there is definitely a spiritual warfare game. But then also, you know, there's. I don't want to just spiritualize it. I'm just saying that, yes, that's why there is such turbulent opposition to this. It threatens people's power, it threatens people's position, it threatens people's privilege.
And ultimately, you know, first with Satan and then others who do not walk with Christ in the world's ways. This is the threat. So it has to be eliminated. And of course that means all kinds of, you know, rocks and stones and sticks and hurdles, etc. And as you mentioned, Christian. It's just, you know, people drop out.
One, two, three, five years, they gave it a shot. It's. They're not seeing the quick fruit of the American life. You know, fast food, it comes like that.
It's just too difficult.
And so you never get to the 15, 20, 25 years or more of the fruit of long obedience in the same direction. What keeps you in the game and, you know, working with church planners, particularly in pastors, I always, I've already mentioned three of the P words, but I'll say four. So I have four P words. This is the only way we find resilience and advanced peace against the cost and the hurdles, et cetera is number one. I call it passion, but really just to be a good preacher with alliteration but really it's a calling. You have to know in your gut that God has called you to be a peacemaker, that God has called you to be a multi ethnic church leader or pastor.
You gotta know that in your gut. Now you and I, I think we'd agree if you're called to be a pastor and you read the New Testament and you look at the ecclesiology, you're called to be a pastor for all people, build multi other churches. But putting that aside, the. There is a calling involved and, and what helps you, what keeps you in the game, so to speak, whether in it at an individual level, in peacemaking, even in your own family. I mean literally I could tell you stories like 10, 15 years within my own adult kids that just. It's taken time to see them get to a certain point of their life that I wish I could have saved them. Their mother wished they could have saved them. But that's long fruit of long obedience. Like you don't leave them, you just hang out and with them. Well, I diverge. So the point is passion is a calling. You got to know this is. And again as a pastor we know this. But like I just said, Matthew 5, 9, if you're a Christian, you're a little a anointed Christ. You're supposed to do the work of Isaiah 61 and you are called to be identified with Christ in the work of peacemaker. So you should own that calling by coming before the Lord, spending time in scripture, reflecting on the things I'm saying and, and get that deep in your gut this is what you're supposed to do.
Then that, that part, the passion part is like God gets on his knee, like engaging a woman to be married and he says here's the ring. Do you want to engage me in this work now just because you could read the Bible, you could experience the calling like I'm talking about on the individual collective level. But just like a woman doesn't have to accept the ring, you don't have to accept the invitation. Yeah. So the second P word is prayer that you, you want to have a moment. Just like in our own salvation. There's often most of us have a time when I know, I prayed that Prayer. I remember where I was. I asked Christ to be my savior.
Same way in the work of peacemaking or building multi other churches, you. There's got to be a moment where you went before the Lord, capital P prayer. And you took the ring and put it on and said, yes, I will accept that, this invitation, I will engage you in this work.
If you don't have that calling and you haven't put the ring on, that's why people drop out.
Because when that calling is in your belly, it's like Paul said, it's like, gee, I gotta go there, man. Don't go to Jerusalem. What am I supposed to do? I got. There's nothing I could do. I got, I'm compelled. I gotta go, right? Jesus, are you kidding? Don't go on there. I gotta go. I mean, what am I supposed to do? I. That's the gut of calling, you know, I got to do it. No matter what happens, I'm doing it.
And then you accept that with a capital P prayer. And of course you're going to pray all along the way. But it's almost like that one moment in time, a capital P, where you got, you received the vision, the calling, and you said, yes, put the ring on. And we know it doesn't always happen in marriages. Sometimes people get divorced, but ideally, every time things go sideways. I know you and Peter have an amazing marriage. I've never had one argument in your whole life.
Never wanted at one time to walk out the door, say, enough's enough, I've had it with you, bud.
But theoretically, when those times come and my wife and I are at 39 years, and believe me, we've had more than one of those and been on the edge several times.
But in metaphor, you look down at that ring and you remember, I made a commitment and I'm not leaving.
And that then takes you to the other two P words. Patience and persistence. Persistence, patience and persistence. That they're like footsteps. Patience, persistence, Patience, persistence. Rooted in the passion of your calling, rooted in the prayer that you put the ring on.
You walk it out long term. Obedience in the same direction. Patient, persistent. Patient, persistent. But you'll never walk it out long term if you can't identify a calling. And no, I said yes, I put the ring on. So all to say, that's what keeps you going and the cost that you pay along the way. Literally, in this book, I dedicated my kids and it says something about their sacrifice. I was a, I was on the top of my game as a youth pastor. I had 600 kids, seventh through twelfth grader in my youth group. I had a three and a half million dollar student center, top 2% of paid youth pastors in America. I had nine full time staff. And my son, my oldest of four kids was ready to go into that youth group that I built over eight years. Top of the game, amazing student ministries.
And I left that and took him and his brother and sisters when they could have had that and their dad, the hero, the youth pastor, all the trapping, they would have been so spiritually formed. I mean Jenny Allen was in my youth group. Yeah, I could name a bunch of others, but I mean it was an amazing, amazing work of God. Between 1993 and 2001, the church I was at all credit to him. Just incredible.
I left all that and took my kids to the inner city and there was nothing. There's no youth group, there's no staff, there's no money, there's no building.
And not just for those trappings. But those are the most insignificant ways they paid a price.
But then they stopped getting invited to birthday parties or they're at school and everyone, you know, we owned the area of town we lived in. Like every single kid went, I mean they came from other churches, they went to other churches on Sunday. They're in our youth group, their parents sent them, they.
And they left all that and the hurt and the ostracization.
Ostracization, yeah, they paid a price. And then we literally talked about that the other day. The books came in a box. We're there celebrating my daughter in law and my granddaughter's birthday and at the very end my youngest daughter brings the box. It showed up that very day. My grandkids got around, we opened the box, I'm giving out the book. But we took a moment in all seriousness where I looked at my adult kids and I said when I talked about the sacrifice, you guys know it, we don't often talk about it, but you paid a price. And my wife and I, it would be easy to second guess that except we know we were called.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: And we know and what. And I got to trust my kids to, to God.
And they still ate. They had a roof over their head, they got a good education, you know.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: But, but they didn't get the, the special stuff that God had allowed me to build with these other kids. The, the stuff these other kids got. And they paid a price and our family paid a price, but we're still together. And now that they're adults 36 to 27, you know, they're coming to see that, you know, yeah, this was definitely of God. And yeah, I was a part of it and I paid a price. But look what God has done.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great story. Mark, I do want to go back just a second to your engagement. You know, I love that, that metaphor, that visualization.
Do you think that every believer, every Christian is meant to, like, say yes to God and say, yes, I will engage in this work with you, or do you think it's a calling for just some people?
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
Calling is a unique word and often overused. Right. And you think about everything.
There's at least four levels of calling, in my opinion, and the first one is general. Every single Christian is called to go and make disciples of all men. Matthew, chapter 28, they call it the great command, you know, great commissioning or commission, whatever. But every single believer, if you said yes to Christ and you embrace him, and of course, when we say yes to Christ, we don't even know what we're saying yes to other than, hey, we're going to be saved and forgiven, and then we see what happens. But every single believer is called to. To steward their knowledge of God, their relationship with God, and to make more disciples, whatever that looks like. So let's just call that a general calling. We are all under a general calling. We are all under a general calling to. To live in such a way to be holy as he is, to. To represent him well, in a general sense. Okay, so every believer has that general calling.
And then there are. Let's see if I could say it like this.
There is.
I don't know, let's just call it a special calling.
And I don't mean special like you're better than someone else. If it's general, it's. It's more specific calling. Let's call it that. Yeah. And a specific calling would be on people like you and me. We are specifically called to be pastors, right? That's a specific calling. Not every Christian is called to be a pastor.
And you could argue for all kinds of stuff. I'm specifically called to be this, that. So we all have a specific calling. That's. That comes out of the general calling. And we're to. To live for Christ as a business person, as an athlete, as a pastor. So we all have a specific calling, Right?
And then there are also, like, seasonal callings, right? So seasonally, like, I was a youth pastor for 18 years, and then one day the light switch went off and God flicked another one, said, you're going to plant a church So I, for 18 years, I exercised my specific calling as a pastor specializing in student ministry. But then the season switched, right? And then now I exercise my specific calling as a pastor, as a church planner, et cetera, whatever, and we could go on maybe a couple other nuances.
So all to say that I think that when you think about calling in that aspect, and if I'm talking, you're listening to this podcast and you're a Christian, you're a Christ follower, I'd be asking you, what is your specific calling?
And that calling can change in different seasons. But. Right. Like I just explained in my own life, in metaphor, but where you're at right now, and you're listening and given your general, specific, and even a seasonal or special calling, because this special calling, I suppose, goes into your gifting, your talent.
I like to think about gifting Kristen like this. What?
I don't believe in gift tests. Waste of time. Hey, you're, you know, you don't have the gift of giving. Great. I don't have to give financially to the church. Right. You know, it's stupid. So I asked three questions. What gives you joy?
What do you find joy in doing?
Because God's not going to gift you to do something you hate. Number two, what have you found success in doing throughout your life?
Every time I do this, it works, right?
That's a special gifting ability, aptitude. Because no matter where I go, no matter who I'm with, no matter if it has to do with this, this is. I always. I always succeed. It just works. I don't know. Somebody said, why does a scorpion sting? The answer is because it's a scorpion, right? So it's just what happens, right? I do it. And then, and then what have you been consistently affirmed in yes throughout your life?
What have people said? Everywhere you go, they say this thing about you, these two things about you, put all that together, you. You ask, that helps you understand your unique wiring, your specific calling that's not tied to a season or whatever, a stage of life. But then wherever you are in life right now, and even reading a book or having this conversation, I would suggest you need to recognize that the best way to advance the Great Commission is to be a peacemaker. And I would say, therefore, every Christian is called to be a peacemaker, whatever that looks like in your specific calling, your seasonal calling, how you embody and exercise that is going to look different. So the answer is no, not everyone looks the same.
Or does it the same way in terms of their context, their gifting, their Season. But yes, everybody should. If you're supposed to be identified with Christ, and that's when you put the label on and said, I'm a Christian, you may not have known it. Right, but you are a little a anointed one. You are supposed to exercise Isaiah 60:1 and Matthew 5,9. And again, as we mature in our understanding, as we mature in our life, skills and practices, our devotion, our rhythms, yes, we should be maturing in the work of peacemaking.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Thank you for that clarification. Again. I really just loved that visual of accepting what God is asking us to engage with him in. And so I wanted to make sure that nobody was listening, going, oh, well, I didn't get the call calling into ministry. And so therefore I'm exempt.
When really it is a personal what is God calling you to?
And you just gave them, you pointed them in some really great directions for people to kind of study and dig into if they're not sure what that is right now.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's all about how, where you're at in life and how you're exercising that. And that's different for all of us. There's some common principles, common understanding, but then there's some very unique contextual things that are unique to you. Unique to me.
But what is not unique is we're calling ourselves Christians. We need to be Christians, and that's to walk in the anointing of Christ as peacemakers.
[00:49:50] Speaker A: Yeah, Mark, we are quickly coming to the end of our time. But I would be remiss to not ask you about the connection between kind of peace and justice or peace and injustice that I know a lot of people are seeing right now. And even as followers of Jesus, it can be a bit overwhelming to see maybe brothers and sisters in Christ having their peace removed sometimes in the name of Jesus.
What are we to do in those situations?
[00:50:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to jump on my phone real quick. Pull up Isaiah 61. You know, if you want to do it, whatever you can. But this is Isaiah 61 is again about the anointed one, the Christ, the Messiah coming, and, and what shalom means, and we talk about that in the book is again, peace is not inactive. Peace is active, but it's removing peace disturbing factors from the lives of others.
That is a good definition of the word shalom. It's the removal, it's the absence of peace disturbing factors in lives, individual lives in cities and societies.
It's removing, like when they say the shalom of the city, I mean, it sounds so like people, oh, the shalom I'm for the shalom of the city. And I'm always telling pastor, hey, I know you love the city. The question is, does the city love your church? That's the question, right? So. But shalom has to do with the removing peace disturbing factors from the lives of others.
And so in these turbulent times, again, I am not the mayor of Minneapolis, I am not the President of the United States, I'm not the secretary, I'm not the AG of the state of Arkansas.
I there, I got virtually no shot of removing those peace disturbing factors that people are facing at that level.
But I do know individual people in my church, in my community, even for me at this age stage, only because I'm old, 64, older, I should say, I know a lot of people around the country. So wherever I'm interacting, wherever I this direct where directly affects me and, or it directly affects those I know personally, that's where I want to dig in, get involved, help to alleviate peace disturbing factors from an individual's life or from a collective life. For instance, very simple. We have a very large Hispanic population in our church, maybe one of the largest in the city for the Protestant side and certainly the earliest product. Nobody was doing it until we were doing it. Now, when in the pandemic, for instance, we set up five vaccination clinics. And of course it's all based on the best research at the time, right? I mean, different things come out over time, but you're just doing the best you can. And we worked with the state of Arkansas to host, over a period of time, five different vaccination clinics focused primarily on the Hispanic community in our city and the surrounding region.
I remember one of them brought a thousand people, got vaccinated that day, etc.
Now there was a white woman who lives in the ultra suburbs with plenty of money, et cetera, et cetera, who were, who actually ended up leaving our church at the time because we were involved with the state on this.
And she was very much against the vaccination.
Literally. I can't believe the arrogance of this. She's like, according to my sources, I'm like, girl, you didn't even graduate college. What are you talking about? Your sources?
But she was very upset with us and ultimately left the church, pulled a few people with her.
We had to explain, you live, you've got health insurance, you've got money, you live on a 10 acre ranch farm. These people are immigrants from like 12 countries and they're stacked on top of each other in, you know, houses, apartments, whatever.
And and we are going to remove a peace disturbing factor from their lives. Because at that time, as any listener knows, and you know, Kristen, nobody knew like, you're gonna die. I had a friend, he was just my age, My help, zero problems with them, went into the, what are the icu and he dead in eight weeks. It was a legitimate thing. I don't know. It didn't affect me like that, but it did other people. So as we all knew, it was kind of a crapshoot. And you're only going on what you knew was best to do in the moment and having to trust God with the rest. So the point is, if you think about that example, to a collective group of people that I directly know, directly can engage, that are affected, we as a collective body, did the work of peacemaking by working with the state to try to remove a peace disturbing factor from their lives.
That's a collective work. Individually, I've sat, as you probably have, with pastors, you know, a marriage on the rocks and it's over.
And then going, how God might you use me to help heal the breach? And I've seen that happen, too. So it's because I know these people, you know, I can't go change the laws, even with working with the LGBTQ community, whatever. Like, I'm not a law, I'm not a congressman. I can't set the laws right. The law of the land is you can be married. And so I got to. I got to work within that to remove peace disturbing factors and do it in a way that points you to Jesus.
That's what it's always about, representing Christ. Well. And so again, at the individual level, when I'm engaged, I know people, they're affected, whether individually or collectively, in my lane to try to bring shalom, remove the peace disturbing factors in life. But again, going back to when I'm commenting, when I am from a distance throwing rocks into a, you know, and trying to, I don't know, I'm just going to say the Middle East, I'm going to speak out and I'm going to say, oh, I'm not doing anything. I'm just playing to the effective base, whatever. Again, if you want to get involved in that game, drop what you're doing and run fully on into the battle.
But where I am in the battle and the people I know and the community I serve and the folks, yeah, I'm engaged. And again, peace isn't passive. Peace is active. And at the end of the day, you're trying to bring shalom to Their lives. Remove a piece disturbing factor. And of course, there are many peace disturbing factors. We can't remove them all. But it's just like anything, it's like a knot, right? Just how can I help loosen just this one strand of the knot?
By being winsome for the gospel? By representing Christ. Well, by leaning into the tension, by avoiding dogmatic statements, by thinking and speaking with nuance, by adding balance to a conversation. And then, of course, embodying peacemaking and living out the prayer of St. Francis and all those ways. I can do that and I try to do that our church tries to do. I know you and Naim and others, you know, do that. But again, not just getting sucked into the noise and that I can't really, I can't change, but I'm not going to acquiesce because I can change it at the ground.
And currently we're coming at a time where, as we know, I stepped up their game in the last year and a lot of deportations and different things happening. Well, on one level, you can speak against that. Oh, there should be a law and there should be this and there should be that, and there's a lot of people that do that. But we don't speak about that. We actually do the work. So right away, I mean, our church was actually interviewed by the newspaper because so early on we dug into what are the rights of our Hispanic population, particularly, I mean, it's other immigrants in our church. And, and what. What will we do? What won't we do? We don't want to break the law.
Right. And so we came to realize, for instance, as a church, there's per. There's public space in this building, but there's also private space. So we designated with signs what's public, what's private. We learned that if ICE was outside, you know, we can ask for a warrant.
We, we said we are not going to slip anybody out the back door because now we're violating a law. So we're thinking and speaking with nuance, but understanding what is our right, what is our responsibility, and communicated that well to our Hispanic population. And so again, that's something we can do, like, tangibly to remove peace disturbing factors from the lives of those we know. But I'm likely not going to change in this case, Donald Trump's opinion and what they're going to do at the ICE level, at the national level. But I can work here locally to make an impact. And then hopefully, and that's the whole thing of engaging people here at the Bridge of Christ Humanity, our work then speaks louder. We've gotten calls through this time from other churches. How did you do it? Can you send us how you work through it? And so now if you think about the butterfly effect, it wasn't our words, it was our work here locally that then picks up a little bit of traction and maybe that changes four or five or six other churches and the way they approach things. And in theory, you know, it would extrapolate from the bottom up to have impactful change and to do it in a way that represents Christ. Well, challenging, difficult. I don't mean to say it's easy, but I do know it's right.
[00:59:04] Speaker A: Well, and I do think a lot of the overwhelm comes in with people thinking, right, I can't change these big things. I can't change the laws, I can't change politicians opinions.
So Mark, niche it down for us. Give us a little bit practical's last question.
Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church, the people around them? And maybe it is helping them to see ways that they can practically make a difference. You know, if they're not in ministry, they don't have power, authority, whatever.
[00:59:33] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, again, almost like we said in the beginning, I don't want to suggest that someone who feels led to speak out at a, let's say at a national level. And hey, again, what's your calling? What's your lane? What's the spirit of God put on your heart? Do what you're called to do. So I definitely want to make that clear. But I'd also like you to think about what practically does, actually, does that actually do? Right, Right. Because we want to actually have meaningful impact. We want to have actionable impact. We want to. Isn't that the goal? Right. So not just in a performative way or what do they call that when you're, when you go online and you kind of position yourself as, you know, I'm all, I'm a good person. There's a name for that. I can't remember what the top of my head.
But all to say, what does it actually mean, what you're thinking?
[01:00:19] Speaker A: Yeah, what, Virtue signaling.
[01:00:21] Speaker B: Yeah, Virtue signaling. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Virtue signal all day long. It doesn't do anything. Right. So what can you do? And again, you want to speak out, fine. So to become the church, you have to become like Christ.
[01:00:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. Yes.
[01:00:36] Speaker B: So you, you can't be. The church and Christ are not separate. I mean, they're presented in the Bible as the groom and the bride. Right. And one flesh. And we got all the marriage metaphors and stuff. So how can you become the church if you're not becoming like Christ? How can the church be the church, become the church if it's not becoming like Christ? Right, right. So that's just a very simple thing. How can you be more like Christ?
The Beatitudes, that's a simple place to start.
Because basically in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is saying, here's what you've been taught, right? Here's what the religious leaders, here's the culture, our Jewish culture. Here's kind of the presumptions, the assumptions, what you've been taught, how particular Scripture has been interpreted and come down to us now, let's just say 1500 years after Moses, and he's addressing this with the people of that day. And that's why he's saying, you have heard it said, yes, that you are to hate your enemies, but I say to you, love your enemies, okay? And so he's providing, this is the way of Jesus. This is the way to live rightly. In fact, the study we're doing right now is called the Good Life.
And the reason it's based on the Good Life is because the word blessed.
Actually, I heard it in seminary forever ago.
The ground level interpretation of the word blessed is the happiest happy, like the happiest happy you can be. And of course, we don't just mean happy. It's this joy, the significance, the security, the epitome of joy and significance and security. The happiest happy you can be in life is these things. And he lays these out in the Sermon on the Mount, and they're all corrective.
Which of course is in part why the Jewish leaders did not like him, because he's basically saying, no, you've heard it. It's this. This is what they say. But I'm telling you, this is the way it is. So to become the church, you've got to become like Christ. For the church to be the church, it's got to become like Christ. And the best place to go to say, what was Christ like? Is the Sermon on the Mount and particularly the Beatitudes. And that's where we find rooted in there, Matthew 5, 9. Blessed are the peacemakers. The happiest happy you can be is when you are removing peace, disturbing factors from other people's lives, working in your lane and in your space, that's the happiest you're going to be. And then think about this, Chris. And I'll end with this. What we didn't you talked about earlier, I didn't go there in terms of the Bible.
But right after Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers, they shall be called the children of God.
Think about it. He's not preaching from notes. I mean, sure, he's God. He doesn't need notes. But in his humanity, he's speaking, he's preaching. And he doesn't have notes. He doesn't have an iPad. He's just riffing, okay. And he's just pouring. This is what's on my mind. This is what's in my heart. Let me just share it with you.
When he says Matthew 5, 9, Blessed are the peacemakers they shall call the children of God. Guess what? The next three verses speak to persecution.
The very next three verses are all blessed are you. When people call you all kinds of names, when they insult you, when you're persecuted for my name's sake, your reward in heaven is great. Now, very few times in 43 years of being a pastor has anybody insulted me, persecuted me, that kind of stuff.
So that, that doesn't often happen.
But you know what does happen is I misunderstood.
[01:04:10] Speaker A: Oh, for sure.
[01:04:11] Speaker B: I misjudged.
My words are misinterpreted.
[01:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:04:17] Speaker B: That is how I get persecuted today for my work in peacemaking. I literally last week online my. We put out a statement which we've only done three statements ever and one was the other about a week or two ago. Just a simple thing I put out on my own social media and then our church media put it up. But it basically it said very calmly, non emotional, that an image that dehumanizes, in this case Barack Obama and Michelle Obama is wrong. It's not right. The president should apologize. The president should pull it down. I didn't say Donald Trump is whacked. He's a. I told you I didn't do any of that. If you feel called to do that, fine. I don't feel called. I just want to stick to the facts. It's dehumanizing. It's not right. He ought to apologize and pull it down. Thankfully he did. Now we made that statement and a former member of this church, African American older woman, my colleague Harry said what a sad day or something on his thing. Yeah, she posts on there. Are you kidding? Mark Demoz helped get Donald Trump elected.
Like me and Harry were like, we're just behind the scenes. We're like, where is that coming from? Like, like in Harry, Harry. Very gently because my colleague Harry's very gentle. He is the quintessential pastor. He's like, mary, I just don't see it. You know, that was his response.
I've been with this guy 24 years, and if there's any political pastor, it is Mark d'. Amas. Right. So. But my point is. And. And then a couple people liked it, and so there's. I was missing. I didn't. First of all, I didn't say anything about Donald Trump in the past that would get him elected or whatever. So whatever. She has some view of me.
She. She's chosen to believe something. And then when he. He asked her about, he says, well, that's just the word in the community. And he's like, in meaning the black community. Well, I can tell you it's not the word in the black community. And then he pushed her. Well, which one? Well, it ends up being one other person that somewhere along the line gets sideways with me, and then they want to say, oh, he promoted Donald Trump. I never promoted. John's wrong. And, and so all to say the persecution that comes with peacemaking isn't necessarily. You're getting stoned, beaten, run out of town. You know, what you are getting is misinterpreted, you know, misunderstood, wrongly judged. And again, back to the Peter metaphor. Like, if you go to that social media post, you don't see me respond.
I. I don't do anything. I just, you know, I let it go because I. I've got blinders on, if you will. I got to stay in the lane. I'm not here to put out fires, and I know the truth of the matter. And if you'd like to. In fact, Harry said, hey, I know Mark would be glad to talk to you. Well, you think that woman's called me and set up appointment? Of course not.
[01:07:00] Speaker A: Absolutely not.
[01:07:00] Speaker B: So. So all to say misunderstanding, being misjudged, misinterpreted, that is par for the course in peacemaking at an individual level and. Or at a collective level. And when you know, you're called and you embrace that anointing, then you just stay patient, persistent, and chase the fruit of long obedience in the same direction.
[01:07:20] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and the passion and the prayer, like you said, of our knowing our why and our purpose and what we're doing really does kind of allow you to sit in the discomfort of following Jesus, because he never said it was gonna be comfortable or easy. So, Mark, thank you so much. I'm gonna link up your book in the show notes as well as all the other books, lots of other resources that you've got out there. Thank you so much for being here.
[01:07:44] Speaker B: Yeah, Kristen, always a pleasure and thanks so much for having me.
[01:07:52] Speaker A: I truly hope this has helped you define your part in peacemaking. When the overwhelm or anxiety or division threaten to overtake you, ask God how you can remove a peace disturbing factor for someone around you in a small but practical way. Don't worry or stress about what you can't do.
Find the purpose in what you can. There are lots of churches and organizations in your city that are doing the good work of loving their neighbors well, and I would encourage you to seek those out. Mark mentioned the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount, so I'm also linking up in the show Notes a sermon series that we did last year called God Bless you. It was Mosaic's take on the Beatitudes, which includes my sermon on Matthew 5:9. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. I'd love for you to watch, listen and share it with someone who could use a little peace. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.
