Preston Sprinkle: Women in Church Leadership

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Mochler Young, and my guest today is Preston Sprinkle. Preston has written a book on one of the most widely contested topics in women in ministry, leadership. Now, don't think that he is here just for my own personal validation, because one of the reasons I even invited Preston on is because he didn't set out to write a book supporting women in ministry. His goal was to dig deeper into scripture to find out what it really says, no matter where that landed him at the end. So for complementarian and egalitarian Christians alike, here's a biblical perspective on women in leadership. Preston, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Thank you. It's good to be here. [00:01:04] Speaker B: It's so fun to finally connect with people, like, face to face. Like, oh, you're a real person. [00:01:11] Speaker A: That's what they tell me. Yeah, yeah. No, truly, it's honored to be here. I've seen your content before and I love the way you host podcasts, so I'm really excited to be on. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Thank you. Listen, I do have to ask you first, like, right off the bat, your Instagram bio, the very first thing that you have listed is pizza lover. And so I was like, okay, for this to get top priority billing, like, I need more info. Any kind of pizza. [00:01:35] Speaker A: I'm a. I'm a pepperoni guy, but I can expand out as long as it's a red sauce, not a white sauce or no sauce. But yeah, I just, it's. I can never get sick of pizza. I mean, for me, it's because I don't want to kill myself and diet 62. I don't actually eat a lot of pizza. I mean, it's. I try to stay away, but I. If it was like, healthy, it would be every meal. Yeah, I just. [00:02:02] Speaker B: No, I'm same, actually. Like, we. We don't have a lot of hard and fast rules in our house. Like, with our kids, we try to just be situational and whatever. But one of the first things that I instituted was Friday night is pizza night. Like, yes, the end. I don't care if it's frozen pizza. See, unlike you, I would say, I don't know if you always go red sauce, pepperoni. Like, are you really a pizza lover? [00:02:23] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, you know, I've got. I got some friends trying to get. Tell me to expand my horizons. And it's not that I don't Like, I just, I. I have a. This palette. I love anything with red sauce, even like a seafood. Red seafood stew. Oh, okay. Tomato soup. When I spaghetti, I put extra salt. You know, Like, I just love red sauce. So, yeah, I, I enjoy other. [00:02:46] Speaker B: You're really a red sauce lover is what it is. [00:02:48] Speaker A: I'm a red sauce. [00:02:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, listen, we've already got that as a commonality, so that's excellent. [00:02:55] Speaker A: The most important thing out of the way. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Well, besides being an author, which we're going to talk about your book in a second, you are also the president for the center of Faith, Sexuality and Gender. And so I do not want this to become a sexual ethics conversation on LGBTQ Christians. We can do that another day. But I do want to know, like, how did you find yourself in what is undoubtedly controversial work? And what do you hope is the fruit of your mission there? [00:03:23] Speaker A: Yeah, man, that's a long story. I'll be as short as I can. [00:03:27] Speaker B: As much as you want. [00:03:28] Speaker A: That's fine. Early on in my. So by training is I trained to be a Bible scholar and college professor, so went and did degrees and stuff and theology and Bible and was teaching out of college. And I just always want to know, what does the Bible actually say about all these things that I grew up knowing? Kind of what I believe, but not why I believe it. And, oh, yes, I found myself, you know, like, studying the topic out and saying, I actually don't think, you know, what my Sunday school teacher taught me in fifth grade was actually correct. And I, you know, so I. I'm always challenging kind of the traditional things I grew up with. And sometimes they challenge it and you find out, oh, that was actually correct. And other things, you're like, ah, maybe not. So, yeah, years ago, I just started down that journey with sexuality. I'm like, you know, I grew up thinking all gay people are terrible and homosexuality is the worst thing that can happen to somebody and blah, blah, blah, you know, But I'm like, well, I don't. Never really studied it for myself. So I started studying it and realized, man is more complex than I thought. And then the biggest thing for me was just sitting down and listening to and getting to know and enjoying LGBT people. And I grew up, you know, where it was like, I was scared. I was like, gosh, they were so othered in my community. It was just like, they're same those people out there. And you sit down and. And. And I found myself at just enjoying thoughtful conversations, kind just curious and a little scared of me. You know, like, why do you want to hang out with me? You know, I'm like, I just want to hear your story. And they're like, I've never met a Christian to just want to hear my story. I'm like, what? [00:05:09] Speaker B: Without a hidden motive? Yeah. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Gosh, yeah. Or this is over and over. People told me I never met a Christian who was kind to me. I'm like, okay, so that as a theologian, I see that that's a theological problem. That's not just, oh, yeah, we should be theologically truthful, and we should also be kind. No, the kindness of God leads to repentance, and the kindness of God is part of his character and should be part of ours. This is a theological problem. So all that to say, long story short, theologically, I landed on a traditional view of marriage. I think Scripture teaches that. But, man, I think the church can do a much, much better job in how we hold to our theological beliefs and how we care for and love, truly love people who have been profoundly marginalized and shamed and shunned by the church. So that's. That's the heartbeat of my ministry, trying to do both grace and truth. [00:06:11] Speaker B: So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Like I said, I know that's. We could do a whole entire hour. [00:06:16] Speaker A: That's as short as I could have. [00:06:18] Speaker B: But I will link up. I'll put a link for the center of faith, sexuality, and gender in the show notes so that people are interested. They can go get more information and kind of read stuff there. But today we're going to talk about. I've got your book. I've got it right here. From Genesis To Junia, an honest search for what the Bible really says about women in leadership. So, Preston, once again, what made you decide to voluntarily dive headfirst into one of the most, like, debated topics in Christianity? [00:06:45] Speaker A: This one. Honestly, I. For years, I wanted to figure out what the Bible says about this topic. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:54] Speaker A: I grew up in a very strong. I mean, I went to John MacArthur's undergrad seminary. Okay. So if people don't know what that means, they can Google it. Very. Like, women weren't allowed near a pulpit, you know. Yeah. On a Tuesday. Yes. So. And it. It just made, you know, I. I like. They're like, yeah, just read first Timothy 2. I'm like, read Timothy 2. And, like, women can't teach or exercise authority over men. Okay. So, boom, bada bing, bada boom. All my leaders are saying that 12 male apostles and everything. And so it made sense to me. That was the lens through which I read Scripture. [00:07:31] Speaker B: It's what you've been taught. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah, this is. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it is what it is. [00:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And there are. And I'm sure we'll get into the meat of these passages, but on the surface of it, if that is what you're being told is true, and then there's enough, you know, there's, you know, some verses in the English translation you can go to, and if you just read it through that lens, it's like, well, of course. And then. Then you hear about people who don't believe that you're like, well, they don't believe the Bible then. So there was that very much like, oh, this is like, if. If you. If you depart from this kind of very strong complementarian position, you're. You're departing for the Bible and the Gospel. And, you know, maybe you're still a Christian, but you definitely don't love the Bible. [00:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:14] Speaker A: Like, and you definitely don't believe in biblical authority. So that. That was my environment. Now, what happened was after I got done with seminary and halfway through seminary, I started to realize, like, I don't think I fit this brand of Christianity. I learned a lot of good things. I fell in love with the Bible still, you know, a biblically centered person through and through. But some of their theological conclusions I didn't quite agree with, and some of the posture and tone in which they held them. Even as a young seminary student, I was like, I don't. Not resonating with that. [00:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:46] Speaker A: And so I went on to do a PhD and met a bunch of, like, godly PhD students that love the Bible, love Jesus, and most of them would be. Were, like, egalitarian. I'm like, wait, what? Like, I was like. I was trying to, like, lead him to Christ. I'd be, like, bringing four spiritual laws to, like, the Bible study or seminars. And I'm like, God, I could. These. I'm like, these. All these people, like, are here spending lots of money doing a PhD in the Bible. Like, they love the Bible. [00:09:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:17] Speaker A: And they're theologically, most of them were pretty conservative. You know, I'm like, wait, you believe women could be in ministry? You know, And I was told that you don't love the Bible, maybe don't love Jesus, and you're probably a terrible person. Like, you're probably like, you know, like, angry. And. And I did. So in my experience, I was like, man, there's some people I deeply respect that I know love the Bible, who hold a different view. And then, you know, I start reading you know, other people, N.T. wright and Craig Keener and all, all the people who are so solidly evangelical and committed to the scriptures and just kind and humble and godly and they hold to a different view. So all that to say, I'll cut this short. I, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I kind of said, you know what? I don't know what I believe because I knew what I grew up with. I could see where they get that. But I haven't really examined it because I'm looking over here and seeing people reading these same passages and not coming to that conclusion. So I said, until I have space to really wade through this, like, wade through all the extensive literature, like, I want to read everything. I want to see. I want to see what are all the arguments on different sides and see what does the Bible say. So, so I got some space a few years ago and yeah, that, that's, that's what I did. For me, it was really just a personal study. In fact, I even told my publisher early on, I said, you can publish this if you want, you know, but I don't think anybody's going to buy this. But this is just my personal study. I'll put it out there just because if I'm going to write a book, I might as well publish it. But I was like, I think everybody's kind of settled this cover. I don't think anybody's talking about this. You know, I think we all settle in 1989 and everybody's in their camps. Like, no one needs another book on this topic. So I'm shocked that I've seen people really interested in. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Listen, Preston, as a female in church leadership, I can tell you for a fact there are still people that I think either one, are maybe wrestling with it, or two, don't know that they're wrestling with it. Like, I have been in situations where people have been all about championing my leadership. They were excited about it, they loved it until they, for whatever reason, needed to come under my leadership. And it was. It's not because I'm harsh. It's not because I am like, you know, I try to be very kind and compassionate and empathetic in the way that I lead because I know I am a female. But it is a very different experience where people think they're excited until they have to experience it for themselves. And then it's kind of like once they have to submit to a female for direction or accountability or whatever, things maybe in their brain are not quite as settled or reconciled as they think. [00:12:07] Speaker A: And These are people who on paper would be totally fine with women in leadership. These aren't like, complimentary. Okay. I've heard, yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Who would say to me in person, like, oh, this is so great. It's great that Mosaic lets you, like, be one of the lead pastors and all of this stuff. And so all that to say. And this is not, you know, I think for women in leadership and a variety of topics, this will show up where somebody thinks they believe one thing, but like you said, it's really just what they'd been given. And because until we take the time to wrestle through it ourselves, it's hard to actually know what we really believe about a thing. So we have to live it out. [00:12:41] Speaker A: I've seen that in some denominations, I won't name them, but that are egalitarian on paper. But you look at the leadership, you look at, you talk to people in the churches, you talk to female leaders in the church, and they say, yeah, it's still functionally very kind of complimentary. [00:13:02] Speaker B: Was there fear for you when you were like, because, you know, you said you kind of been given just this one. This is what it means to be a Christian and love the Bible. Was there fear in, like, okay, maybe I'm going to explore this other way? [00:13:16] Speaker A: No, no, there wasn't at all. No. I mean, for one, I've already explored several other kind of hot topics that are somebody's bench of theological orthodoxy. So I've kind of been there, done that. So this one was, it was genuine. I was, it was one of the most exciting projects because I, I just on, just on an exegetical level, I love, I love wrestling with tough passages and I love reading scholarly books and diving deep, deep, deep into the text, underneath the text, into the history. And as you know, you've done the work. I mean, there's, there's just. From a. If you like to study the Bible, this is a really interesting topic and I don't want to read. Please. I'm not, I don't want to reduce it to just an, oh, an interesting thing to study. Has massive implications. But, but just the, just this, the study part of it was just really, really enjoyable. So, and I, I, now he said this in the introduction. You know, people can believe it or not. I, I genuinely was wide open to landing on wherever the text leads. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:21] Speaker A: And part of the, you know, this is, you know, I've gotten critique. Why is a man writing on this topic? And yeah, I, I, you know, I am a man and yes, I have. I want to just admit I do have the privilege of not being personally invested in my conclusion like that. That doesn't mean it. It's not meaningful to me. It doesn't mean I have, you know, close people who this will affect, you know, So, I mean, there's that. It's like writing on sexuality as a straight guy. So I've kind of been there, done that, too. Now, again, I say, okay, my narrow lane is. I'm a Bible scholar. I just want to understand what the Bible says and help other people understand what this text says. I am not at all claiming to have some experience. I'm not claiming all. There's some personal stuff here that I just. I can't speak into, and I'm not trying to. So, yeah, yeah, we're good. We're getting all. We're going all over the place. But, yes, there was no fear. It was. It was exciting. Maybe when the book comes out, I say, yeah, you should have. You should have rethought this. [00:15:21] Speaker B: I'll check back with you in a couple days and we'll see. [00:15:24] Speaker A: Please do. [00:15:26] Speaker B: No, listen, I understand. I understand, and I appreciate very much that you're like, you know, wanting to be clear about not having quote, unquote, like, skin in the game as a male writing about. But also, Preston, we need. We, meaning women also need men talking about this because there are men who will not listen to me talk about women in leadership because it's just going to come across as like, well, of course you're going to say this because you want your way and you want to do what you want and yada, yada. So anything that I say, whether it's researched or not for some people is just going to be white noise. Like, they're not even going to consider my perspective, but they can relate to you or see themselves. They're like, okay, well, if this other guy who's like me and was raised like me and believes like me, can also see maybe a difference in Scripture, I think, fair or not, this is just the way life is. I think people might be more likely to listen to you than they would to me. [00:16:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's unfortunate. I get it. I've had. So I am glad that you're worried about this. I've had almost verbatim other women leaders say the same thing. I'm like, it's sad that that's the case, but it. Yeah, I. I get it. It's not shocking, you know, but, yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. [00:16:44] Speaker B: Yeah. There's other things. There's lots of Things, so many things. Baptism, communion, like the other people have differing opinions on, but not necessarily so strongly. Why do you think people are so certain on what they believe when it comes to women in ministry? [00:16:58] Speaker A: That's a great question. People have been asking me that, you know, why is this one so particularly volatile? And, yeah, why are. Why is everybody see it in a very black and white way? I think, I think there's probably a range of responses I can give depending on the person. It's hard to weigh intentions. You know, one. I guess one thoughtful response would be, you know, we're dealing with the fundamental structures of humanity, you know, males, females, and how God is ordained, etched into creation, how we should relate to one another. And, you know, from a complementarian perspective, someone would say, you know, like, you know, males, men and women have certain roles, and this is embedded in the fabric of creation. When you start messing with that, you're messing with some fundamental things. So that I think that's a, I think that's a. That's a reasonable and thoughtful concern. On the, on the egalitarian side, you know, you could say equally like, we're messing with, you know, we're all creating God's image. We're all called to rule over the birds and the fish of the sea. Genesis 126. Right. Like male, male and female, both created in God's image. And some egalitarians might say you're messing with the very fundamental ontological equality of men and women. You know, so I think both sides might be concerned for, you know, we're dealing with this very structures of what it means to be human. Also, I think, and I could only speak from. Because having grown up in a strong complementarian context, kind of like what I said before, you know, we're told. And at first glance, it seems like there is a blatant plain meaning in 1 Timothy 2. Like, it just says it right there. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker A: You know, like Jesus says, don't commit adultery, and Paul says women don't teach and exercise authority of a man. Like, it's just, it's just to deny that is denying scripture. So I could, I could. I think that is a big. A big reason why somebody would be deeply, deeply concerned if you take a different view and allow women to teach and preach and lead men. Now, as I'm sure we'll talk about, it's. I'll just say it flat out. Anybody who just quotes that verse or quotes another verse from their English Bibles and think that settles it. And I say this not in a Condescending way, just in a factual way. Like that is a, that is a naive and ignorant thing to do. Ignorant, mean you need, you're just neutral. Like you just don't know the meaning of authente or you know, the deeply syntactical complexities of the Greek verbiage or the history of the background and other things that make some of these texts much more complex than just a reading it in your English Bibles makes it out to be. And naive in the sense that you should know better than that. Just, I mean, come on, like just a quote from an English Bible and think like that. You know, millions of people in the world, Bible scholars don't know that verse. You know, it's like, but that's what people do. [00:20:23] Speaker B: That's what so many Christians do. They're like, and it can be on anything. Here's a verse, let me like lift it off the page verbatim and apply it literally and go like, okay, well I've been told this is what it means, so that must be what it means. You know, it's just that like spoon fed belief almost. [00:20:41] Speaker A: I say at the beginning of the book, I've said this over and over, you know, let the strength of your passion match the depth of your study. If you haven't really dug deep, deep, you can still have an opinion. I'm not saying you don't have an opinion, but hopefully it has a. It's held with a little bit of openness because if you have a really strong opinion about something you have not taken the time to study, especially one that is clearly complex with all the books devoted to it, that, that is like you're hurting your case when you do that. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:08] Speaker A: You know, when you talk to somebody they're so passionate about like I'm against Karl Marx and like, oh, have you read Karl Marx? No, but he's bad. And like when did he live? And like, I don't know, but he's bad. You know, it's like you just make yourself look like an idiot. You're just right. Oh, okay. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Like have your opinion but also know why you have it. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. [00:21:26] Speaker B: So yeah, well, let's get into it. We, we're kind of like going around. Listen, let's just dive right in because people like to say, you know, the Bible is clear, especially on first Corinthians which says women should remain silent in churches, and first Timothy, which says, I do not permit a woman to teach or assume authority over man. She must be quiet. How did you used to interpret these passages and how do you understand them now? [00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, these are the two big ones. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:53] Speaker A: And I will say up front, First Corinthians 14 is much. I think it's much easier than First Timothy 2. Okay. I mean, even when I was a complementarian, I guess that's. Yeah, whatever. I, you know, you read First Corinthians 14, and women cannot speak in church. They must be silent. But Paul already said in First Corinthians chapter 11, verse 5, when women are praying and prophesying in a gathering, they must wear head covering. So it's like, all right, Paul is very much okay with them prophesying in church. So whatever he's talking about in 1 Corinthians 14, if indeed Paul even wrote these verses, some people don't think he did that. He can't. He's. Something's going on here. He can't be. He can't be saying, like, women can't utter a peep in church, otherwise he's contradicting himself. And I don't think Paul would do that. Not just because he's inspired. Whatever. It's just like, what writer, you know, a few pages later is going to say something that directly contradicts what he said earlier? And you have, you know, I mean, he, you know, as, you know, he commissioned Phoebe to be the letter carrier of the book of Romans, and letter carrier has read the letter out loud. So she's not being silent. She's actually reading the book of Romans [00:23:12] Speaker B: and actually teaching it to the people [00:23:13] Speaker A: and possibly giving an authoritative interpretation of it. So, anyway, so. So when you look at the wider New Testament context, whatever these verses mean, it. Paul can't mean women cannot open their mouth in church. Right. So there's several approaches to how to interpret the passage. Some say Paul didn't write it. I don't. I don't. There's smart people who say that. I didn't find that argument compelling. Other people say that Paul was talking about women aren't allowed to judge prophecies. So if a prophet gives up and gives a prophecy, women aren't allowed to evaluate that prophecy because doing so would be an authoritative activity. You're actually exercising authority over the prophet. I didn't. That's held by a lot of complementarians. I found that exegetically not compelling. Like, if that's what Paul's doing, then fine, but he's. It just didn't make sense of the passage. He's. He's already been talking about judging prophecies earlier. Like so he's already done that, right? And how to do that. And there's, there's nothing in the language in verses 34 to 35 that would suggest he's judging prophecies. So all I did in that passage, and I'll try to be brief, you know, there's, there's like four keywords, you know, speak, be silent, submit, and learn in 34 to 35. And when I just, you know, I liked it. When I dig into a text, I just kind of look at, I begin with like the words. And what do these words mean and how are they used elsewhere in Paul, you know, it's what I Learned from John MacArthur Seminary, you know, good old fashioned words, you know, and how's, you know, so when I did that, all of these kind of key words in this difficult passage Paul's been using all along, Learn, speak, be silent, submit. They're all, you know, and the context of First Corinthians 14 is all about exercising prophecy and tongues in an orderly manner. In fact, the word submit occurs a few verses earlier when he says, when one prophet is speaking, other prophets should submit to the one speaking. Don't interrupt, right? And then right after he says, women, you know, you know, be silent in church and you know, be, be in submission. He's like, well, he's not, he's not actually saying submit to your husbands or male authority. He's saying submit. If you just take how the words use a few verses earlier, he's saying some, you too, submit to a prophet who's speaking. Don't, don't interrupt. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Right? [00:25:51] Speaker A: And the word, even the word for speak is often used of speaking in tongues. And Paul is really concerned about speaking in an orderly manner because there's so much disorder going on. So all that to say, I lay this out really clearly in the book. I think just based on how Paul has been using these words all along, he is telling women to basically to stop because I think they were disrupting the, the gathering, especially disrupting other prophets when they're, when they're speaking. But he's not. And it just so happened that in Corinth, and there's, there's, there's historical reasons why this might be true, but there, you know, in, in Corinth, there is probably a particular problem with women doing that, which is why he kind of singles out the women, but he doesn't actually just, I mean, just a few verses earlier, he told everybody to respect the prophet, to submit when they're speaking, don't interrupt. So, so yeah, so there may have been. So maybe there were some women that were kind of particular, like doing this maybe to a, to a higher degree or something, you know, so he does single out the women there, but it's not like he's just picking on the women. He told men to do the same thing. So there's a. [00:27:01] Speaker B: This church got a letter, like as a whole. [00:27:03] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So to me, just based on how Paul's using these words in the passage seem fairly clear to me. Like I always want to say, okay, maybe I'm wrong, but this one, I was like, yeah, I think he's telling women to not be not. He's not telling women don't speak. He's saying don't speak in a disruptive, disorderly manner, which is the concern of the passage through and through. Sure. [00:27:28] Speaker B: Well, what about First Timothy? I know that one probably is, I don't know, used more often. That's the one that I get the most in my comments on Instagram and [00:27:37] Speaker A: just random people come in First Timothy two. So I knew and I know that [00:27:43] Speaker B: you do unpack this in the book so you don't have to give us, you know, a whole full exegesis. [00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's the longest chapter, it's 50 pages. I just wanted to be. Because it is, it's the, it's the biggest passage. And I also, I'm not interested in getting around what Paul says. I'm not interested in making Paul to be a 21st century Western egalitarian person, you know, like he's a 1st century Jew. So yeah, you know, like I want Paul to be Paul and I want to accept what Paul says and deal with it. So I'm not trying to like. And I've seen people maybe with this passage, others there's kind of like, it just feels like they're just getting around, just find this, you know, scraping for some kind of other way to read the passage. I'm like, no, I want to know what is Paul saying here? So the biggest, and there's so much here, but I would say the biggest eye opening moment for me was when I looked deeply at that tricky word that's translated have authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. And anybody that spent a few minutes in the passage in the commentaries, you'll know that this is a really rare word, the Greek word authentane. It's not used anywhere else in the New Testament. It's not used anywhere in the entire Greek translation of the Old Testament. It's hardly used in all the huge piles of Greek literature we have outside the New Testament, which is like, I mean millions, you know, like it's, it's a ton of literature. Yeah. So it's a very rare word. Now how do we know what a word means? Well, it's based on how it's used and well, we don't have a lot to go on. We have like 7, 8, 9 references, you know, around the time of Paul where this word is used. Now. I said, okay. And you know, I'm a obsessive, thorough kind of person. I'm like, okay, I'm going to study every single time, every single use this word is, you know, every single occurs every single time this word occurs, including like 2nd century Greek papyri and all these manuscripts and stuff. And I remember scurrying around the library, wanted to get to the original and comb through it and everything. And so long story short, what I found and I cite every single passage in the book, I talk about this. It's kind of the most, it might be the most tedious part of the book or it might be the most exciting depending on your, on what you like to read. But I went through every single passage and in every single case this Greek word authentane, translated have authority in 1st Timothy 2:12 is used in a context of a master having authority over his slave or somebody of a high social status exercising, I would say a kind of a secular kind of authority over somebody with a low social status. It, it's, it feels very similar to the very thing that Jesus overturned in Mark, chapter 10, when James and John wanted to have authority in Jesus's kingdom. And, and Jesus says it, you know, the gentiles lorded over others. They treat people like slaves. I'm paraphrasing, it will not be this way among you. Yeah, the greatest will be the least will be the greatest. The servant is the greatest of all. So he overturns this Greco Roman top down dominating hierarchical authority on its head. When I looked at every other time authenticated is used, it has that kind of thing, that kind of, kind of authority that Jesus was overturning. So yeah, I said, I guess the big question is, is Paul referring to good godly authority that men should exercise but women can't because they're women? Or is he critiquing a domineering, a kind of unchristian use of authority? And I'm like, based on every other use and we're not, we don't have a lot but based on what we do have, seems like he's critiquing a dominating kind of authority. So all that to say he's not telling women to. You're not allowed to exercise the kind of authority that men are allowed to do. He's saying nobody should be doing this kind of authority in the church. And there happens to be a particular problem in Ephesus where women were doing this kind of authority over men. And then you go into the historical background. You realize in Asia Minor, the area where Ephesus was. And in Ephesus, women did occupy an unusually high number of positions in. In that are high in social status. There's an unusually high number of wealthy women. And wealth gave you status. You had the. The Artemis cult, which was filled with. With single priestesses. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:32:30] Speaker A: Who had a lot of wealth and power. [00:32:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:32] Speaker A: And you also have in the letter, Paul kind of like, he seems to be one of the false teachings was people disparaging marriage. And he's telling. That's why he kind of like, no get married, you know. And so, yeah, so I looked into the background of the Artemis cult and some of the themes that were pervasive in 1st century Ephesus. And then you go read Paul's words in chapter two, verse nine to 15. You're like, oh my gosh, there's so many touch points here, all the way down to the words he's using that Paul doesn't use anywhere else. But you see him everywhere in like literature surrounding the Artemis cult. And then in chapter 2, 2, verse 15, women being saved by childbearing. I'm like, what does that mean? Like, that's kind of out of nowhere. But did you learn that. That Artemis the. The patron deity of Ephesus was known for being a cosmic midwife who saved women through childbearing? [00:33:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:28] Speaker A: So to me, it's like, okay, I think we could be pretty, pretty confident that Paul is addressing like some Artemis mythology with that weird verse that comes out of nowhere and that. But that verse is part of Paul's argument. So if that's addressing Artemis stuff, then let's just go back through and see if there's other touch points. And all throughout, there's so many touch points. So, yeah, all that, say, in conclusion, I could see where complementarians would read that passage. And it's a tough passage, but I think the best way to read it is Paul is addressing a localized situation where women were wielding dominating authority over man. These wealthy women. He talks about wealthy women a few verses earlier and. And they had some influence from their background in the Artemis kind of mythology. And Paul is addressing this localized situation, not giving a universalized principle that no women every year, everywhere should never teach nor exercise godly authority over. Over a man. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's context. And I think, Preston, one of the best things that people can do, I try to teach people all the time is like, curiosity and ask questions and why and dig deeper. Because that's what happens, right? We get to one of these verses where we're like, well, this seems to come out of nowhere. This doesn't have anything to do with anything. And we just go, oh, well, it's the Bible. We're like, okay, but if we could actually. [00:34:47] Speaker A: Because of the angels, right? [00:34:49] Speaker B: We're like, okay, but if we could stop and we could learn to go, well, why? Like, what else could this mean? Why? Is there a reason in context? Oh, my gosh, the Artemis cult changes everything. And I actually love Paul for this because I feel like as I've studied, you know, prepping for sermons or whatever, my favorite passages are those where I thought it meant one thing because I'd been taught like, hey, it means this. And once I start to dig into why did he use this particular word? And so many times, it's like, well, because of the context at the time or what was happening at the time. He picks language that was like, to us, we. We don't recognize it. But at the time, those people go, oh, I know exactly what you're saying. And Jesus did this too. I know exactly what you're saying by using this examp or this, you know, specific word. And because we just don't have the context for whether it's slang or, you know, timeliness or whatever they knew specifically. And we just like, gloss over it so the more people can learn context. [00:35:51] Speaker A: I think, yeah. 100. There's that famous quote by. I'm blanking on his name, Old Testament scholar that said, the Bible was not written to us, but it was written for us. [00:36:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:05] Speaker A: It's such a helpful distinction. We have to understand that, yeah, the. The author and the recipients were living in a context completely different than ours, at least here in the west and with a language different than ours, you know, and yeah, I. People often ask me, well, do we need to, like, understand the social and historical context? Understand the Bible? I'm like, I mean, you could understand, I think, a lot of it on. On a meaningful level with. Without that, but you're only going to go deeper and you're only going to understand it better if you do understand the. The context. You know, it's just the way. That's the way any literature goes. If I was going to study, like, Voltaire or something and I didn't know anything about. I don't know when did he live? Was he. 18th centuries? If I know nothing about the time in the time period in France when he wrote, like, that's only gonna help me open up Voltaire and understand what he's saying better. So. [00:37:04] Speaker B: You may or may not know this about me, but when I was first invited into ministry, I did not accept. Not because I necessarily believed it was sinful for women to lead, because I was already leading an entire campus before I was ordained as a pastor, but because that title meant something specific to me. So I did my own research, research on women in ministry and women in leadership to see for myself what examples there really were in the Bible. If you're curious, I've linked up some of my favorite books in the show notes, as well as one that argues both sides of this theologically, in case you want to do your own deep dive into figuring out what you believe. Well, Preston, this is how I know you are more intellectual than me, because your example was like, Voltaire. And in my mind, I'm like, okay, this is not. This is. I'm gonna give you. I've thought about this multiple times, and I've never uttered this out loud on the show, but I'm gonna do it right now. And I said not. I don't remember where I originally heard this, but to me, it's the difference of, like, a butt dial and a booty call. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:38:07] Speaker B: Okay. Don't be offended. Don't hang up. [00:38:10] Speaker A: No, that is. That is. [00:38:12] Speaker B: So here's the thing. We know what that means. We know what that means. In however many thousands of years, if people, like, look at our texts and they may not know the context and the difference between a butt dial and a booty call, and they might think it's the actual same thing when they mean very different things in context. [00:38:31] Speaker A: That is such a good. Because that's an example that nobody's gonna forget. [00:38:36] Speaker B: I never have. [00:38:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:39] Speaker B: And I've always been too timid to bring it up here on the show. So thank you for being that person. [00:38:43] Speaker A: I mean, the easiest one for me is just ask anybody who's bilingual. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:48] Speaker A: Like. And just ask them, like, okay. Is there anything in your. In your native language that just feels hard to fully get across in English? I've never met somebody who's English is their second language. Who said. Nope, nothing. Everything translates perfectly, you know? [00:39:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:04] Speaker A: So. Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:06] Speaker B: I love that. Well, most people. And we did talk about the words of Paul. I think a lot of people when it comes to women in ministry, kind of just rely on him. But in this book, you were like, nope, we're starting in Genesis. So why did you go all the way back to the beginning? [00:39:20] Speaker A: I mean, Genesis 1 and 2. And I knew this just from growing up. You know, Adam and Eve are looked upon to provide a paradigm for, you know, male female roles in society or in the church, and especially women in leadership. So, so I knew I needed to wade through all the arguments that are used especially. I mean, it's, it's you. It's usually. Well, egalitarians will focus on like Genesis 1. Both are called to rule over creation. Therefore there's no like, hierarchy and how they rule. And then complementarians will camp out in Genesis 2 and maybe sometimes 3 and show that Adam was created as Eve's authority. Eve is his helper. He's created first. He names Eve. You know, these arguments. So, and so I was familiar with some of the arguments already. I just haven't really dug deep and examined them. And, and yeah, when I, when I did, I was like, okay, just based on Genesis itself, not how Paul cites the passage, because he does cite the passage in a couple occasions. And I knew I was going to get there and understand, well, how's Paul understands these, this text. But just based on Genesis, all the arguments I thought proved some kind of like male authority, male headship weren't nearly as strong as I had originally thought. And some I thought were just like, oh, that just doesn't work. Otherwise. I'm like, okay, I could, I could see that. But it's not as fail proof as I used to think. So the, like, the na. Out of being created first, this is one that I thought was kind of a slam dunk because I'm, you know, I'm familiar with the Old Testament context. And you have this principle of primogeniture where when the, the patriarch, when the father dies, he passes on his authority to the firstborn son and the firstborn son has kind of authority over his siblings. Like, he's kind of the new leader of the family. And Adam was created first and Eve wasn't. And so obviously he isn't an authority over Eve. But when I really thought through it more, I'm like, well, hold on. Like, first of all, there's no father that has died. If God's the father, he's still alive. And Eve is not his sibling. It's his Wife, she's not a younger brother. And but even more importantly, like, yes, this was an ancient near east principle, but throughout Scripture, God often overturns it. He's often raising up the younger of the brothers to have some kind of like, priority in God's plan of redemption. David being the classic example. And all throughout Genesis, the patriarchs, God's common often choosing the second born. And we get the New Testament and it's the, the last shall be first. So why, if this is like God's vision for creation etched into creation before the fall, why is God so fond of overturning it? So to me it's like, okay, I, I, I think it would be again here is that kind of naive if we just without thinking like, well, Adam has created force, therefore, you know, like, okay, well let's think about that a little more. That, that doesn't really seem to fit. Now we do have, now Paul, okay, in First Timothy 2 does, after he says don't exercise authority over man, he does say Adam was formed first, not Eve. So, so we have to deal with that. But that's, we have to go to that context and understand how what Paul, what is Paul doing rhetorically with that allusion to the creation of Adam? Like, what is he doing with that in the passage? So if we just, if we just understand the nature of Genesis 1 and 2, I just don't see anything in, in the, in the firstborn status of Adam. And also in First Corinthians 11:8 to 9, Paul cites that as well. And I deal with that there. So, yeah, so all that to say when I got down to Genesis 1 and 2, I was like, I, I could see, I could see where, you know, some of these arguments are better than others, but none of them are fail proof. Some are just not, I don't think are accurate. So I kind of leave Genesis 1 to 2 said. I think this passage is, is, does not come down and prove male authority, some kind of principle in creation that the rest of the Bible is going to confirm. Because the rest of the Bible doesn't. Right, well you follow that. You know, we have women throughout the Old Testament even that don't fit the paradigm of like making sure they're not exercising authority over man. So, and, and, and I believe in, in the New Testament as well. So. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you and Scripture is so connected. So I mean you, it's, you can't just look at the New Testament or the Old Testament, especially on a topic like this that is woven all throughout. So I'm glad That you spread it out. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:09] Speaker B: What was it about Junia? Because it's from Genesis to Junia. What was it about her story that intrigued you? [00:44:13] Speaker A: Oh, man. Well, Junia, she occurs in one verse in Romans 16:7. And it's one of the more controversial verses where Paul, in a list of greetings, greets Andronicus and Junia, who are highly esteemed either among or to, or in the eyes of the apostles. And then Paul also says, they were in prison with me. [00:44:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:44:45] Speaker A: And they were apostles before me. So, I mean, this one verse in a list of greetings, which nobody, you know, once you get to Romans 16, you're like skipping over to 1 Corinthians. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I used to do. [00:44:57] Speaker B: We've all done it. [00:44:59] Speaker A: But I, you know, upon further study, I realized that in the first century world, the end of the letter and the greetings often summarize and contain some of the most meaty themes in the letter itself. So this is a theologically rich chapter and one of the most theologically rich letters Paul wrote. And there's three women I looked at, you know, deeply into Phoebe, Priscilla, and then. And then Junior. So, so, yeah, so there's several questions surrounded Junia. There used to be a question about, is she even a woman? [00:45:33] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, she was. That's Junio for a while. [00:45:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So you have a, you know, Junior is. Is. Is in Latin would be female, Junius would be male. And the Greek is kind of a, you know, trans transliteration of the, of the. Well, a translation of the Latin and won't bore you the details. Long story short, Almost, you know, 98 of scholars say, yeah, she was a woman. You know, so that, that, that's kind of case closed. The big one is, is, does Paul say she was an apostle or simply highly esteemed to, or in the eyes of the apostles. And I, I waited through that probably more thoroughly than I ever thought I would. And for a season of my journey, I was like, yeah, I think it says, you know, read some articles that said she is not an apostle. And at first I found them really compelling. And I was almost. I kind of wrote like early drafts, like, yeah, she's not an apostle. Whatever. That's, that's, that's what the text says. Yeah, I don't need her to be an apostle. But then I kind of re. Looked at those articles and looked at the evidence and looked at the stuff they're citing. Again, going back to like, Greek, papyrian, this, that. I'm like, gosh, a lot of this evidence doesn't match up what they're saying when you actually look at it. So then I kind of just kept digging, digging, digging, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this phrase most likely means she was an apostle. It could mean in the eyes of. But that's. That would be a much odder way to read the passage than saying she was an apostle. Then you read early church fathers, like Chrysostom, who was very happy to not have a woman apostle, who's a native Greek speaker. Like, this is his original language. And he read it saying, oh, my gosh. Like, how amazing is Junia? He's like, just like. Paul even calls her not only apostle, but highly esteemed apostle. So if the Greek could read differently that she wasn't an apostle. And there's other church fathers who do the same thing. These early church fathers who weren't down with, like, female, you know, pastors and bishops and priests would be very happy not having Junia being a apostle. So I think she's an apostle and many others do too. [00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:46] Speaker A: What struck me the most, and I think Andronicus is probably her husband. What struck me the most is that Paul says they were in prison with me. I'm like, that's interesting. So I dug into why would they be in prison? And it could be for a couple things. Either deeply criminal activity, not just stealing, but, like, really serious stuff. And I don't think Paul would kind of praise them for doing, like, you know, they knocked off a bunch of banks and, like, you know, murdered a bunch of people. And, you know, like, I don't. [00:48:20] Speaker B: That's who I'm gonna list in this letter with me. [00:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't. I don't think that's probably why. The other reason why they could be in prison, and Paul knows this very well, is by disrupting the Roman Empire with the gospel. Right. Which is probably what. What they were doing. But it. But then it's. I did research on this, and it's really uncommon for a woman to be thrown in prison unless she was, like, a significant threat. And women who went to prison, that there was. There was no division between men and women in the cells. They were absolutely grungy and dark. The stench of, like, rotting corpses waft through the air. Chains would wear through people's skins. They would get diseases. Food was scarce. So if you know anything about the first century world, picture a woman in a prison cell with other men who are criminals. [00:49:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker A: And I don't. I'm not a woman. Okay. I'VE got three daughters, a wife. So I, you know, I. Yeah, I know about women. Yeah. But I. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, even something. Can I. I mean, this is good. [00:49:38] Speaker B: You can say it. [00:49:39] Speaker A: I just think about, like, even, like, what happens when she's menstruating. Yeah. What happens when she's asleep? What happens. Does she even sleep with a bunch of ogres? [00:49:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Waiting for her to fall asleep? You know, like, we don't know what happened at prison. But historically, she probably went through hell and back. [00:49:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:56] Speaker A: And so I just. And Paul uses the present tense. She is highly esteemed among the apostles, meaning she kept apostling, kept going, having gone through hell and back. I imagine the first time she showed up at that first house church gathering, opens the doors, probably scarred, beaten, battered, scars of the gospel etched into her bones. And I. I think there was a massive hush in that room. And I think this is historically informed speculation. I think both men and women were ready to listen to somebody who has not just preached the gospel, but has lived it with the profound cruciform suffering that comes with it and is continuing on the mission. And that's where. That's how I kind of end the book, saying, man, I think. I think men, everybody but men are at loss if we don't sit at the feet and learn from the juniors of our day. Women have a unique experience in the church, unique challenges. And again, I know this from secondhand, not firsthand. But you talk to women and the comments they get, the looks they get, the unspoken treatment, the, you know, kind of dehumanization. I talked to, you know, female scholars of PhDs from Harvard University and at theology conferences, men come up and say, oh, are you here with your husband? You know, it's not. Whatever, you know, and they kind of laugh. But I want them to say, no, I write the textbooks that your husband is reading, you know, but just all that. Or, you know, men, have you had this happen where men jump out of. You get an elevator, and it's just you and a man, and they jump out. Like, I've had women, like. And then you just feel like, am I just a walking sexual object? You know, like just the layers and layers and layers of explicit or unexplicit, intentional, unintentional, specific forms of dehumanization that women have had to endure, especially in the church. And that. That builds. It could build maybe, you know, trauma or it could build a lot of resilience. And. And, man, I look at women who are still following Jesus and, and, and have so much to say. And they've been through unique experiences as a woman, and they bring that to the, they bring that resilience and wisdom and suffering and life experience to the table as a woman. And I'm like, I, I, that, yeah, we would do well to, to learn from that. [00:52:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thank you. I was getting emotional, teared up, just, just picturing, you know, the way you kind of described, like, Junia showing up in that room it. To the modern church of today. So just. Thank you. That was beautiful. That was encouraging to me as a female. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:52:56] Speaker B: So it's lovely. Do you think that this framing of, like, changing your mind on women in ministry can lead to people changing their minds on other things? And is there anything in particular that you'd encourage people to, like, hey, maybe study this thing a little more deeply? [00:53:12] Speaker A: I would say study everything more deeply. And if you, I'll say this. If you're like, say you're like 40 and older and you hold to the same views you had when you were 20. Either you were a brilliant 20 year old and you knew everything, or, or maybe you, there's some things you should rethink. You know, like, and again, I'm not, I don't think we should just change our mind and everything just to change our mind or whatever, but just, you know, the reformers had a phrase, reformed and always reforming, meaning we are reformed. Reformed in the sense of like, you know, the Protestant. Like, we go back to the Bible and then we're also always going back to the Bible, taking our views, you know, back to the Bible over and over again. So change is not bad. Changing our minds. People think that's a bad thing. Changing our mind toward being more truthful is a good thing. And unless you have the corner market on all the truth out there, there's some things we all need to change our mind. [00:54:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:11] Speaker A: You know, by definition, Jesus doesn't. He gets a free pass. Everybody else, you got to change on something. So, yeah, I'm a huge fan of taking your views back to scripture over and over again and making sure they're aligned with what God says. [00:54:24] Speaker B: I love that. Well, last question for you, Preston, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:54:33] Speaker A: I think we can become the church. The church is a unified body of Christ, the visible manifestation of God's presence on earth. And Jesus prayed in John 17 that may they be one, as you and I are one, speaking to the Father and man. We live In a day and age when there's so much division and slander and hatred and anger and social media isn't helping with that. The algorithms are definitely not helping with that. But the church has a wide open opportunity to embody a different way to humanize and respect each other in disagreement. We can disagree, we will disagree. That's part of being human. But we can control the manner in which we disagree with each other. And gosh, what if people look to this Christian church, it's known for bickering and fighting and division and all this stuff. And what if we model? What if our local church is modeled Honesty, curiosity, humility, and humanizing other people within the church, outside the church, when we disagree with each other? I think people would be very enamored and attracted to that kind of community. [00:55:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen. May it be as you said, that's what we're. I know that's what you're trying to do. That's what we're trying to do at Mosaic and in our ministry. And so that was beautiful. It was a great ending. We thank you. Thank you for this. I'm really grateful for your voice and like I said, women and leadership and just the humanization of all people, especially when it comes to the church. So we'll link up all of your work there for people to go check it out. Thank you so much for being here. [00:56:10] Speaker A: Thank you. Appreciate it. Kristen, [00:56:17] Speaker B: When it comes down to it, treating all people with humanity and honoring their imago Day is something that we can all keep getting better at. Like Preston said, the reformers gotta keep refusing forming. That's exactly what you're doing by listening to this show and I'm so grateful that you are. Will you share this episode with someone right now? Maybe another female who needs a little encouragement no matter what her field is. Maybe a friend who is church shopping and trying to figure out what they believe about leadership. Or maybe a friend that, you know, disagrees with you on this topic now, not to argue with them, but just to have some dialogue and discussion. You can also share the show on your social media as one of your favorite things to do in the week so that we can get this message of humble transformation out into the world. Be sure to tag me hristenmochleryoungwhen you do so I can share it. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.