Natalie Runion: I Don’t Even Like Women

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Natalie Runyon. Natalie is the founder of Raised to Stay, an online community of Christ followers who have wrestled with their relationship with the church, but who are desperate to stay with Jesus and find healing for their hurt so they can help others heal. If you've listened to this podcast before, you'll know that her mission really fits the heart of what we're trying to do here on Becoming Church as well. Natalie wrote a new book called I Don't Even Like Women and Other Lies that Get in the Way of Sacred Sisterhood, which we'll talk about for a bit, but then we broaden the conversation to talk about church hurt, deconstruction, and what is causing people to walk away from not only the church, but their faith. Even though the title has the word women in it, this is still a conversation for everyone. Hey, Natalie. Welcome to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Oh, thanks, Kristen. Thanks for having me. [00:01:14] Speaker A: I'm excited to have you and to talk about your newest book called I Don't Even Like Women. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Yeah, this. This title, I really had to push to my publisher. I thankfully have done two books prior to this, and they trusted my judgment. But, you know, when I went from being a worship pastor to a women's past, when they offered me the position, I literally said these words. I was like, why would you do this to me? I don't even like women. And even saying it out loud felt so wrong as a woman. And then as I've traveled the world now with Raised to Stay, speaking at women's conferences, this is a phrase I hear coming out of women's mouths everywhere I go. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I myself have said it lots of times, so. And admittedly, even after God called me to ministry, that was still a phrase that I was like. But God, no. Like, there can be women at my campus. Like, I'm fine with that. They can be here, but I don't. I don't want to hang out with them. I don't trust them. Like, come on. I don't like women there. They don't like me. That was always my thing. [00:02:15] Speaker B: It is something that we all say, and that's really why I wanted to write this book, is to sort of debunk or rewrite these scripts and these lies that so many of us say. And I don't even know if we know why we say half of the things we say, like, women are so jealous. Women are so competitive. Women just don't like me. Like we. We say. And then I'm thinking, like, what's at the heart behind that? And that's really what prompted me to want to put this book out into the world. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Well, I know it's going to be great. Before we jump into it, I do want to do a quick Q and a with you on some other things. And you are going to let me know. You know, we. Now we're coming to the agreement. We do like women. Okay. We do like. So do you like or dislike these things? Okay, Natalie. Exclusively female. Like group devotionals. Like or dislike? [00:03:03] Speaker B: I dislike them personally, but find value in them corporately. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Answering both ways. I see you. I see you. All right, how about live, Laugh, Love, decor? [00:03:16] Speaker B: Can't do it. I can't same. [00:03:18] Speaker A: No, me neither. [00:03:19] Speaker B: All right. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Faith based networking events. [00:03:25] Speaker B: No dislike. [00:03:26] Speaker A: Okay. See, you're allowed to say that you can be honest here. It's okay. It's fine. All right, how about pastors saying, hey, girl, or like, yes, sis, from the pulpit? [00:03:37] Speaker B: No, it needs to stop, like, before. [00:03:39] Speaker A: You even finish a question. [00:03:40] Speaker B: It's a no. [00:03:43] Speaker A: All right, how about women's ministry events with matching, like, script font T shirts? [00:03:47] Speaker B: It's all right. I can see where that's unifying. Yeah. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Okay, last one. Giveaways with bath bombs and bullet journals and other, like, spa type items. [00:03:58] Speaker B: I love a giveaway. I would like to see the items put inside of those giveaways shifted. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Fair and fair. Yes. I just. I was like, let me come up with some very, very traditional female things, which, listen, like you said, are for some women and they love it. But, like, also, yeah, let's broaden the women's ministry thing here. Like, let's. Let's make it a little more inclusive. [00:04:26] Speaker B: That was really personal, actually. Like, everything you said. Like, I have to be careful because I go to events where they're doing those exact things. And so, you know, it's not that I'm sitting there judging. I'm just thinking, like, man, if you just tweaked this, like, a tiny bit, it would be so much more inclusive. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And like, okay, so let's talk about women's ministry for just a second because as a pastor, right, like, we have a women's ministry and post pandemic, it really changed and we. It's been more of like, a social thing thing, and we're trying to build it back up. But honestly, Natalie, even the women who understand our Heart and what we're trying to do, they're not interested because in their brain, it's so embedded that we're like, women's ministry is cringe. It's so cringe. [00:05:12] Speaker B: You know? Well, and I think we have years and years of reputation to have to sort of undo to get women to not think of this as their mom's or their grandmother's women's ministry. And the only way to do that is to create community that doesn't look so cookie cutter. I mean, really, when I look at churches that have robust small group ministries, I'm like, hey, if you've got all women small groups and they're thriving, then doing a once a year event is great. You may not need a weekly women's ministry. And I think a lot of women are busy. Covid did really shift a lot of our mindsets. So if your church is already doing things that serve women, that serve them in every stage of life, I'm not just talking about married women and women with children, but all women, then I don't think you really need to keep bringing back the sacred cow of what 1990, 1980 women's ministry looked like. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Thank you. That was permission just for me, as we're like calendar planning for the rest of the fall and the rest of the year to go. Hey, Kristen, like, it's okay. Y' all don't have to do things that your people maybe don't even need right now. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Totally. I mean, we're so busy and I'm watching even at our own church, like, the way that we do small groups. I mean, these women are so involved not only in that, but in serving and that they come to the church and they'll. They'll do different activities. Activities throughout the day at the church just to help get the church ready for Sunday. I mean, they're creating that community alone because somebody's not forcing it on them. And I actually think that's really beautiful to watch women initiate that. [00:06:43] Speaker A: Yeah. To make it be more organic. Well, what has been your experience with women and with female friendships? [00:06:52] Speaker B: You know, I would say that I have always loved having girlfriends. Growing up my whole life, I was in girl Scouts, I was in dance. I was a cheerleader. I was not, though, that, like, sorority girl. Like, I liked having guy friends as well, and I probably had a good amount of the same. I would have a lot of girlfriends, but I also had a lot of guy friends. And I got into college and everybody was joining sororities. I went to a Public university and really just enjoyed having mixed company. It wasn't that I thought sororities were bad. I just really didn't ever desire to be around that many women at one time. And I loved their sisterhood. And maybe some ways I was jealous of it because it just wasn't something innately in me and that made me feel guilty sometimes, like, why am I not more pro girl time. But I really just found myself looking for that balance of guys and girls. But, you know, the thing is, is that people start getting married and your best guy friends can't be your best guy friends anymore. And you do find that when you get married, then you have your husband as your friend, and it's not appropriate to be hanging out with guys one on one. And so then I started thinking, wow, you know, it really would be nice to have in my late 20s and 30s. And I didn't really know how to make that happen organically after living this life of sort of walking, this tension of, you know, am I a girl's girl? Am I not? And so I don't. I don't really know, Even now at 45, what kind of a friend I am or what I'm looking for in a friend. I just know that when I find it, I hold on to it. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, well. And there's. There's seasons, and we'll get to that too. But it is. It's weird when you're like, oh, well, I was super, really good friends with you, but now you're married. And so how do we now hang out together? Honestly, my favorite, like, friend nights are when it's my husband and I and our best couple friends, and it's the four of us, because sometimes it's it's me and the other wife. Sometimes it's me and the other husband and it's my husband. And it's just like the four of us have found this mix where we all, one on one, can with each other really, really well. And it's been such an answer to prayer. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think having, like, two really strong friends is actually super healthy. And I do think that that changes as we grow, that we don't have an army around us anymore of, like, all these different women, but we have, like, the one or two that are just with us. And, you know, within women's ministry. I grew up in really weird women's ministry. I mean, they would do tea parties and brunches where we had to wear hats and there was flowers everywhere, and they would do foot washing services. And the women kept their pantyhose on. Like, it's weird. It was super weird. So obviously being invited into women's ministry FEL really, like, 25 steps back in ministry. I just felt like the Lord had bait and switched me, basically. And the challenge then was, okay, if we're going to shift women's ministry, perhaps the Lord is inviting me into some ref. Like reform, like, reformation in this. Like, maybe the. Our generation will be the one to remind women we're not a country club, but we're raising up leaders. [00:09:48] Speaker A: Oh, that's so good. That's really good. Yeah. I said for a long time that I was a girly girl, but not a girl's girl. And I argued with God a lot, and then he changed my heart. And people ask me, they're like, how did you go from, like, you know, not trusting women to being, like, a champion or a cheerleader of women? And I'm like, God kind of forced it on me, honestly, because I went not willingly, but if God can flip my heart around, then he could do it for anybody, you know? [00:10:15] Speaker B: Absolutely, yes. And I think that's what happened with me, too. The more I spent time with women who I wouldn't have chosen to spend time with, but it was now my job. And they came into my office and they shared their hearts. The Lord started to break my heart for their hearts. And I thought, that's what God does. He breaks our heart for what breaks his, and his daughters break his heart. And not in bad ways. He loves us. Like, that's what I mean. Like, there's a tenderness, there is an empathy. There is a. A deep love. And so I would say that we're called to love one another. We know this. So we say, well, I love everyone, but this isn't just about love. This is about liking. Like, I enjoy spending time with you. I look forward to seeing you. And that's the kind of sacred sisterhood, safe sisterhood, that I think a lot of us are looking for. [00:10:55] Speaker A: So I want to unpack that a little bit, maybe with some of these other questions. The difference between loving and liking other women. Because we're called to love everybody, right? But it's not easy to like them all, necessarily. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, love. I think when we hear the great command, you know, we are like, yes, of course, like. But I think we see that as, like, well, I'm going to tolerate this person. Like, I'm called to tolerate them. I'm called to stand there and give a smile on this mask that I'm wearing. Even though I don't really like them, I'm going to be fake because I've just got to fake it till I make it. Because this is what love looks like. And that. I know that sounds horrible, but as Christians, like, sometimes our flesh is just so raw and ugly. And so we will. We'll tolerate people rather than celebrate them. And that's the kind of. The difference between, I think Christian love is that sometimes we're just like, well, I have to love you, but when I really like someone, I'm also going to celebrate you. I'm going to prefer you. I'm going to champion you. And. And that's easy to do all the time when someone is making life difficult or when they're being drama queens or they're being gossip girls or they're being mean women or whatever it is. And so we have to, like, sit in that tension of, I'm going to choose to, like, prefer you and champion you even on days. You're not giving that to me. Because I believe that this is how we are going to shift culture and change the way that women, not just in the church, but in the world, behave towards each other. [00:12:20] Speaker A: And it's only going to happen by choice. I love that you use the word choice. Like, I would think most people listening are like, yes, let's change the narrative. We want it to change. We want life for our daughters to be different than it was for us. But it's not just going to, like, naturally happen if we don't choose to work at changing that narrative. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And that choice is also very contingent upon the scripts that have been written over us by our own moms, by other parents of our friends. Like, we've had so many wrong scripts written over us by other women, by other generations, that this is not only a choice, but now it's psychological, it is theological. There is so much happening in our 30s and 40s where we are bringing some of that trauma into our. Not only our adulthood, but how we're raising our daughters. And so this choice can come with some counseling. It can come with having to be. Enter back into community. That terrifies us. And. And that's all choices for us to change the scripts over our own lives. [00:13:20] Speaker A: What's an example of a script that maybe has been spoken over women? [00:13:26] Speaker B: There's so many. I mean, that's why every chapter of this book, I basically wrote one. I think we've heard, you know, you're too emotional. You're just such an introvert. You're such an Extrovert. You're too loud. You're too much. You know, you. You hear those. I can remember being in fifth grade, going on a Girl Scout trip to a horse farm. It was the first time I'd ever left my family overnight. And I was sitting at a restaurant with my Girl Scout troop and all of these moms, and I loved these moms. My mom wasn't on the trip. They were like the Martha Stewart moms. And I looked up to so many of them. And I remember having a headache, and I was homesick, and I didn't want anyone to know. And one of the moms looked at me and said, natalie, you're so quiet. And I said, oh, I don't know. I was like, I just have a headache. And I was saying that just to not say I was homesick because I didn't want to be the big baby. [00:14:07] Speaker A: That's embarrassing. Yeah. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Looked at me, and she was like, oh, Natalie, you're such a hypochondriac. And I remember that, like, so vividly. Like, so vividly that even at 45, like, it sticks to my soul. And how even as an adult, I've struggled with health anxiety, and I've struggled with thinking that something's always wrong with me and how I've had to break that script over my life because some woman who I looked up to spoke that over me when I was in fifth grade. And I think it's so important that we, as not only women, know what we're speaking over each other, but over our daughters, over their friends coming through our doors, because we may be the first person to speak life over something that has had negative scripts written over it their whole lives. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah. What's something that you did when you recognized? Right. Cause I think that's the first step is we have to recognize, hey, these scripts and these things that we're believing are not actually of God. They're put on us, or we're carrying them or wearing them from someone else. So once they recognize that, Natalie, what can they do to then flip that script and kind of stop believing it? [00:15:11] Speaker B: I guess I do think it's an everyday process of, you know, the word of God tells us to pull down any high thing that's in contradiction to what God says about us. And when we look at the Bible, and a lot of us don't spend a ton of time in the Word, but the Bible really does write the better word, and it's telling us who God says we are, who God created us to be. And for me, I really had to journal and spend time like, this is who the world says that I am, but this is who God says that I am. I've had to be in spiritual direction, you know, sessions and counseling sessions where I've had to say out loud, these are the things I believe about myself as a girl in 90s purity culture, but also in 90s, you know, heroin chic, thin as in anorexia culture, having to really work through body image, body dysmorphia. I mean, I come from the generation where we ate chocolate laxative for dessert. I mean, that was what was written over. [00:16:06] Speaker A: I'm not cheering because I'm like, yay, do it. I'm like, we are the same. Like, we lived the same life. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Like, I. I can remember, like, going to college and we would not eat. We would have literal competitions of who could not eat the longest. And I. I just think about that and think, like, these scripts that have been written over us and the things for me, I've really had to battle hard to wake up every day, take those thoughts captive, and remember who God says that I am, that he made me perfectly and without mistake, and that I am. Those are all things that not only we can do through journaling and counseling and spiritual direction, but also through being in relationship with other women who can help us. I remember looking at a friend. I had lost some weight because I did really wrestle with this, gain a lot of weight and lose it. And I had been on a health journey to just be healthy. And a friend of mine looked at me, this was just last summer, and she said, natalie, you look amazing. Well done on this fitness journey. And the first thing I said to her is, I said, well, I was like, I still got a little bit of, like, you know, double chin action happening. And I was deflecting, right? [00:17:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:08] Speaker B: And she looked at me and she said, you stop it right now. You will not talk about my friend that way. And I just remember thinking, this is who I need around me. Like, I need people to remind me that I don't need to be rehearsing these same scripts. I need to start speaking into who I'm becoming. And that whole year, this whole year has been about just being the healthiest version of myself and not the skinniest version of myself. Yeah. [00:17:30] Speaker A: I hope the people that are listening to maybe the women specifically, who are, like, nodding along, can find freedom in this and knowing. Like, just because these things are still sticking to you doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It doesn't mean you're broken. It doesn't mean your faith is not strong enough, any of that. It just like you said, they, they stick to us, right? And so I think one of the ways too, is combating those words with different words. I have struggled with body dysmorphia forever. I mean, today, if I'm being honest and I have to tell myself I'm like, my eye, like, I literally will say my eyes are lying to me. Like, when I look in the mirror and I start to catch these thoughts, I have to just stop right there and go, my eyes are lying to me. Like what I'm thinking and what I'm believing and what I'm seeing. Even in a weird way, I don't know how it works psychologically, but, like, is not true and is not real. And so it's like, you have to catch it first and then, yes, go to scripture and remember, like, no, this is who God said I am. This is the value that I have and why I have value, because I'm a reflection of him alone. Not because of anything that I've done or how I look or whatever a mirror or a scale or, or social media comments or anything else says, you know, but it's hard. It's tricky. [00:18:45] Speaker B: It is. And then we get on social media, speaking of, and we look into the windows of everybody's highlight reels and we're seeing women that are, you know, losing the weight or keeping their house cle scene with their beautiful mop smells and whatever it is that they're putting on tick tock that they're trying to sell for commission. And we're all like, oh, I, I just want that. And, you know, so it's not only taking captive those thoughts and waking up every morning and doing that, but also committing to. I'm not going to peer into the windows of other people's homes and covet what they have. And for a lot of us, that might mean unfollowing people or not being on scrolling, doom scrolling. As much as we're working through some of these things. Our pastor did a beautiful message on breaking the yoke of things that are keeping us from running towards our calling. And he said, you just got to tell yourself the yoke is broke. And every morning when I wake up and I struggle with anxiety or I struggle with my image, I think, no, Lord, the yoke is broke. I'm not attaching anything to myself that's going to keep me from getting to the thing that you want me to get to. And that has been so Freeing for me is just to speak that first thing in the morning. [00:19:48] Speaker A: I love that both of my daughters, too, people have helped me with their wording. They fight anxiety. I used to say both of my daughters have anxiety because they both have a, you know, 504 plan that says this is clinically, like, what they have so that we can give them the testing accommodations and the things that they need at school. But, yeah, somebody challenged me once and was like, hey, maybe don't say that they have it, but they, like, struggle with it or they wrestle with it. And I was like, I'm taking it all the way. Like, we fight. [00:20:17] Speaker B: It is actually what we do to not name it. Like, I don't say my anxiety. It's not mine to bear. It's. God will break that off of me. It's something that I wrestle with, but it's not going to overcome me. And I think for a lot of women, these. These scripts that have been written over us, that's what we have to say. It's not my insecurity. It's not, you know, my identity. This is just something that the Lord has allowed me to wrestle with for whatever reason, and I'm going to use it as an opportunity to call on him, to draw near to him. And honestly, having anxiety, you know, struggling with anxiety, has been the thing that has brought me back to the throne room over and over again. And I'm seeing the deliverance slow and sure as I break that yoke and I say, no, it is not who I am. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so good. Well, I know we kind of went on a tangent there, but I think that was really important. So thank you for going with me, and thank you for your. Your honesty and your vulnerability. Of course, going back to your book, what are. I know you said each chapter is kind of like a script or a lie that has kept women from friendships. What are. What's one of them or a couple of them that keep other women at arm's length? [00:21:27] Speaker B: I think hearing that women are so competitive, like, you know, we're always watching what's going on with other women. I think when we look in scriptures, we see such beautiful models of male friendship, but we don't often see a lot of. Of women friendships. We have, you know, Ruth and Naomi, we have some examples like that. But when I look at Mary and Elizabeth, that friendship, they were also cousins, but that friendship is one that models collaboration versus competition. And when you see Elizabeth get pregnant with John the Baptist, they've been praying for this forever. How many of us have had friends who have been just praying, God, I want to carry a child. And it takes years. And they get pregnant, and it is this miracle. And this is what happens for Elizabeth. And then Mary is just minding her own business. She's not married, she's not wanting a child. And an angel comes to her and says, hey, you're actually, by the way, you're pregnant. Your cousin Elizabeth is too, but you're going to give birth to the Holy Spirit. Now, the first thing, you know, Mary does is she's so overwhelmed. She runs to her cousin because that's the first person she thinks I've got to tell this to, knowing that Elizabeth is also with child. And she runs in there and she's like, like getting ready to say it. And the baby within Elizabeth, John the Baptist leaps in the presence of God and Elizabeth, rather than looking at Mary and being like, oh, way to steal my thunder, like, I was going to have a baby first, and I've been wanting this a lot longer than you. You don't even want a baby. She immediately starts prophesying over what Mary is carrying. And then in turn, Mary sings a song. And they both are able to really celebrate what each one was carrying, knowing that they were not in competition with, with, but in collaboration with. Because John the Baptist would ultimately be the holy harbinger for Jesus, preparing the way in the desert place for the coming of Jesus. And we see this beautiful collaboration, but how broken it could have been if they saw each other as competitors and not collaborators. And that's really what I'm seeing, especially in. As women, when we get older, we're vying for the same positions, thinking there's only one seat at a table. And this is where we have to shift that lie that we are not orphans and, but all co heirs with Christ and daughters of the almighty King who owns the cattle on a thousand hills. And we lack nothing. And that is just one lie that I really want to see for my own daughter's sake. For us to stop fighting for seats at a table and start pulling up chairs. [00:23:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's so tricky, I think, especially with women, because there is something to systems and patriarchy and whatever. And even if you want to roll your eyes at that word, like, like, there is, there is. We are still set up to need to compete with each other. So what, like, Natalie, what does that look like? I mean, I know I have been in spaces too, where I am really excited to get something, but then it's given to somebody else. And I Want to be happy for her. But also I'm like, well, there was only one spot for a female here. And once again, I didn't get it. And I. It's, you know, especially when you quote, unquote, like, work for God. [00:24:18] Speaker B: It's. [00:24:18] Speaker A: It's hard to not feel like you have those opportunities sometimes to get to use your voice and the gifts that God gave you. What does that look like to be able to celebrate instead of compete when it's something that we really feel like we were wired up to do? [00:24:31] Speaker B: This is hard in the local church, especially because we're still seeing change in the church when it comes to what women's roles can look like, not isolating us just to women's ministry or just a kids ministry. And I tell my brothers this all the time in Christ, my brothers in Christ. Like, one way that you guys can actually help women stop competing is by creating more space for women to have seats at tables where men have primaries primarily dominated. Now, women, hear me, we need to earn those spaces through being able to control our emotions, by being where we say that we're going to be, by stewarding the opportunities that we've been given. And I think a lot of women, we think, well, I'm just the token woman. They need to put me there so that there's a woman in the room. And that's not how this works. I think of the story of Deborah and Barack. I want to scripturally back up what I'm saying, and that Deborah sat under the palm of Deborah every day and through hearing God's voice, rightly judged the people of Israel. And every day, Barack, he knew she was under that palm tree doing what she said she was going to be doing. She was a wife, she was a mom. She was there. She was a judge. She wasn't a queen. She showed up every day and she stewarded that position. And then when the battle came, Barack was like, look, I know who I'm taking into battle with me. If I'm going, I'm going with the woman who hears from God. And that's what that story is. It's not that Barack couldn't handle the battle and had to. To call in a woman to fight for him. It was no. He wanted to partner with her because he knew she heard from God. And that's what I want. When I go into a church or I'm in a situation, I want my brothers to know that I am so faithful to hear the voice of the Lord that I am sitting under my palm, showing up doing what I said that I was going to be doing, that they can trust me when it comes time to make a hard decision, when it comes time to go into warfare spiritually, like, I want them to be like, I. I can trust Natalie. I can trust Kristen. Let's go and let's do this together. And I think for a lot of women, we want to just kind of show up and be given an assignment without actually having to faithfully steward the ground that we've been given. And that isn't how this works. We need to be women who are trustworthy, not gossips, not overly emotional. And we don't want to be controlling just to try to keep our seat at the table. And unfortunately, I think that sometimes we're our own enemy and that we do behave badly. And then therefore, our brothers are like, you know what? What? We don't want any women in the room. I know this is hard to hear. I know this is hard to hear, but I'm saying that we need to be really wise stewards of our space. And is it fair? I don't know, but I'm with you, Kristen. I believe that there is an order, and I believe that that order is godly and it's scriptural, and I want to be in order. And in order for us to be in order, we have to have a heart of submission and a heart of servanthood. And that's when we end up getting invited to tables, is when we have that posture of be it unto me, as you have said, not give it to me because I'm a woman. [00:27:27] Speaker A: Right. Right. And that's. So you're. I think a lot of people do see it backwards. Right. Of like, give me the stage, the platform, whatever it is, so that I can show you what God has to say versus really, what it should be is the opposite of, like, no. You watch and you see Holy Spirit in me, and when you see that God is speaking through me, then you give me the opportunity, which we would. Hopefully, that's the true same for men, too. Right. Like. Like, that's what we want for everybody. [00:27:56] Speaker B: And. And that's my testimony. You know, I. I've been in churches where they haven't wanted to call women pastors. I'm okay with that. I've been worship director, worship teacher, worship leader, worship pastor, and I'm not there. Like, I demand to have the title pastor. [00:28:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Eventually what happens is you end up being called Pastor Natalie or Pastor Kristen anyway, because you're doing the office of pastoring, and people see it in you. So, yeah, demanding titles just for, you know, whatever sake we want. The title oftentimes just ends up being an uphill battle that God didn't ask us to fight. [00:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that my ordination actually came. I mean, I fought every step of ministry. I fought every step, Natalie. Every single one. And my ordination was one of them where I'd already been in ministry for a couple of years before finally I was like, okay, like, I'll do it. Let's do it. And so Ashley, who's the other female pastor at our church, we got ordained together, which was really special. And. And the number one question that we got after it, like, people were like, okay, what are you going to do now? We were like, well, like, what we did today and what we did yesterday and what we've been doing for the last couple of years. Because, like, this title is special and it's meaningful and it's such an honor, but I've already been doing the work. That's why my. My lead pastor called out and he was like, no, you're doing this. Like, let's get you ordained. Why don't you take this next step? Step. Not because it's like, poof, you have this title, and now all of a sudden, you'll become a pastor. [00:29:22] Speaker B: I love it. And I do think that as women, then when we see other women stepping into those spaces, then we're like, oh, like, there is more space for us. We just need to continue to steward the good things that God has given us and to steward it well. And so many times we are asking for what's next. And it's like, God's like, well, just keep doing the thing that I've called you to do. And, you know, whatever earthly titles that we get down here, they're going to all be gone when we get to heaven. Those aren't those tit don't transfer with us to eternity. But I do know that when I get to heaven, I want to hear, well done, good and faithful servant. And so that's. That's the ultimate prize. And I do think as women, we can get hung up on titles and who's sitting where because of these identity issues and these scripts that we've been wrestling with since childhood. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Natalie, I want to talk about friendships that end female friendships, specifically, because I know I've experienced this. My guess is you probably have. The women that are listening, I'm sure have. I've been in relationships with people that I thought was like, I thought this was it. Right. Like, I thought this was the female friendship to, like, end all, be all of female friendships. And for whatever reason, something happens. Sometimes it. Somebody moves and it's a little more healthy. Sometimes something happens and there's a break. But so often I see these friendships where all of a sudden, instead of just distancing, it's like we demonize each other, right? And it becomes really nasty. How can we hold on to, like, the beauty of what was, instead of saying things like, oh, well, they must not have, like, been your people, or you weren't as good of friends with them as you thought, because, no, like, I was. We were. [00:31:02] Speaker B: This is hard because I feel like this happened to me especially around the time that I was leaving college, and then when I got married, and then when I had babies. I can, like, literally demark. Like when certain friendships that had been like my ride or dies suddenly are not there any longer. And, you know, we can say, oh, we just grew apart. And that's. That's partially true. But I also feel like we don't give one another the decency of closure. And something that I regret is I had a really good friend in my twenties who became really. And I know we all said, women are so clingy. We say this, but I felt like I had a stage five clinger, okay? And I'm not a clingy person. I don't. I don't like that. And I just remember one day I just literally just stopped answering her calls. Just straight up stopped answering her calls. Now, that is not how you do it. That is not loving well. That is not how Jesus would do it. I'm not telling you to do that, but that's what I did. And I thought about her probably every couple of months for 15 years. Fast forward to two years ago. I'm in Colorado, and all of a sudden, she's standing in front of me in my home church. Their family had moved all the way back from our home in Ohio to. They had moved to Colorado to be on staff somewhere, and they were attending our church. And she's standing there with her husband and her two children. And I just remember feeling this flood of guilt, but also relief. And let me tell you what happened. We hugged each other and. And introduced our families to each other and picked up that friendship like it had never been lost. And I think about my behavior towards her, and I. She did not deserve that. That is not what a good friend would do. But what I'm so grateful for is that the Lord allowed for there to be some closure in that. So that he could redeem it, because that's what God does. And I think that if I could do it all over again, I would have called her and I would have just been honest and been like, hey, look, this season for me, I'm not a good friend for what you need me to be. And either we need to make some adjustments or we might need to just take a breather. And I know that those are uncomfortable conversations, but now, as someone who's gone through the counseling and gone through emotional IQ training, I do think that for a lot of us, we just need to name the season and name the tension and name what we're not good at. I tell people right now I'm the worst with text messaging. If you are a friend of mine, don't text me. I'm not going to respond to it for at least six business weeks, not even days weeks. And I need people to know that's where I'm at. And I just think that that saying, it kind of creates that freedom for people to know the expectation. So that's what I would say. I would say just name the season you're in, be honest about it, and give people a little bit of vulnerability that you. You might be afraid to give. But at the end of the day, like, God is. God is for his family, and he wants us together, you know? [00:33:49] Speaker A: Do you think that there are some friendships that are only meant to be seasonal? [00:33:53] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I think that that's God's kindness to us. I think that those are the ones that you laugh about how crazy you were in college and how nuts you were when you were new moms or when you were single and, you know, living your best life or when you started the new job. You know, we all talk about how we have work friends and we have church friends. Like, I love the fact that friendship can be seasonal because it doesn't lock me in to, like, having to be all things to all people all the time. And I think that God is kind, man. Like, he's just like, you need this person for right now, and you need this person. And when I see those people, like I said, it's like no time has passed. I'm glad to see them just not talking every day anymore. [00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we've. We've given ourselves this wrong expectation of friendship the same way that maybe we did for, like, marriage. You know, I think there was the idea of, like, when we were growing up, there's this one person on the planet that you have to find, like, this very only one person that God has for you. And this will be your spouse and good luck, and we hope you find them. And the same with your friends. And so at least I thought growing up, like, oh, once I found my friends and I've got my people like this, nope, you are. You are stuck with me forever. [00:34:59] Speaker B: It's so true. [00:35:00] Speaker A: And I don't know the case. [00:35:02] Speaker B: No, I don't know about your hometown. But where I'm from, and I only live about 35 minutes from my hometown, like our parents went to high school together. Our grandparents were friends. There is generational friendship. So I still see people that I was in Brownies with. I still see their parents, I see their grandparents. I've sung at some of their grandparents funerals. I have. We'll run into each other at grocery stores and their parents. Is such a beauty of having that friendship legacy. My one girlfriend who I have been friends with since I'm four. We. Our kids are around the same age. We don't see each other at all in person, but on social media, we're like BFFs. And there's just an understanding. Look, our kids are all going to be graduating in about four to five years, and we're all going to be able to meet for brunch whenever we want, however we want. But for right now, like, we are the best Facebook friends. And that's just the grind right now. [00:35:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's okay to come to that expectation and even to grieve what was. If you want. Like, I know that I've got still a very painful, painful friendship, I guess you would call it breakup, where I didn't have closure. And I wish that things had gone differently on. On both sides. I wish on her side and on my side that things had gone differently. And I think sometimes you have to just grieve what was. And then, yeah, just ask God to be like, all right, well, who. You know, who's next? It's like you talk about in the book. You say that, you know, many women are desperate for deep friendship. So without saying, you know, the platitude thing of like, well, just go first, you make the invitation. Which I know is true, but, like, also, it's hard. What's something that we can do to find other women that we can trust and be real with. [00:36:44] Speaker B: We have to leave our houses, number one, because, look, I'm the go first girl. I'm the one that hates awkwardness. I'm like, like, you know what? Let's just get this over with. And that's not everybody's personality. So I agree. Like it can't always be. You've got to go first. I think number one, we have to put ourselves into situations of community. You know, community comes to the committed. And if you really want community, you're going to have to commit at some level to community. And that could be going to church on a Sunday morning and just standing in the foyer, maybe get there a little early and stand there. I mean, look there. If your church doesn't have somebody who's at least going to come up to you and say hi to you, you need to find a different church, right? Or you know, jump into a small group or ask your husband, say, hey, do you have like a really good guy friend who you think's wife would and I would gel like let's go meet for dinner somewhere and have your husband initiate it. Like I think that there is just ways, I know, like even getting to my kids sporting events and sitting in the bleachers and just kind of making myself not have a resting mean girl face but like looking invitational. If somebody talks to me, I respond. The other thing is this. If you get invited to something, even if you're kind of like, well I was gonna sit at home and watch Gilmore Girls, just go, you know, just go and see what is there for you. And I'm number one offender here because I love my Friday nights watching my Netflix. But when I'm invited to go grab like a cup of coffee or to go get, you know, a Diet Coke or whatever with someone or go for a walk, like I'm gonna say yes now because I'm thinking I'm 45, I want friends when I'm 55. And if I isolate myself when my house is empty and my kids aren't here, who am I going to be with, right? So I really just say make yourself available. Even if you're not the one initiating, just be available. [00:38:27] Speaker A: And, and that, that requires margin. Also like I'm the person and I'm talking to myself, right? Like looking my, looking at myself on the screen going, hey Kristen, you like, you have to create margin and you have to have time to actually spend with other people or yeah, you will not have friends because no one knows you. [00:38:45] Speaker B: No. And I'm like, I'm going for a walk with a friend, a new friend tomorrow night at 7pm because that was the only time we had. It's summer, we're gonna just meet at 7pm and go for a 30 minute walk. And you know what? I'm gonna Go to bed tomorrow night and be like, I have a friend, you know, and that's gonna make me feel really good. Even though at 7pm I'm already in PJs. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Same, same. I want to break in really quick to let you know that if this idea of scripts that have been spoken over you or written over you are just kind of sticking to your soul and you feel like you need to do more work to identify what they are or to figure out what your new words are to have in their place. I want to point you to a book called Flip the Script by Brittany Estes. She also wrote a teen version called Glow Up. The Teenager Teen version would be really great for your teenage daughters. It'd be great for a youth small group study or just as a gift for a young lady that, you know, to let her know that you see her value and want to help her see it too. I've linked up both of those books along with the two Becoming Church podcast episodes where Brittany dives deeper into the heart behind the books. If you are someone who is looking to flip the script, this is a tool that will be great for you. Well, this has been really good. I want to broaden the conversation a little bit and talk about your two prior books. You wrote a book called Raised to Stay and also the House that Jesus Built and I actually found you. I started following you on social media because of the way that you challenge Christians to persevere instead of letting their church hurt, keep them from healing and growing. And so I think we have a lot of overlap here between your community and our listeners. So talk about your stayers community, because I know a lot of people that are listening are looking for a community like that. [00:40:36] Speaker B: You know, the raised estate community was formed in like 2019. I was going through a really hard season in ministry. I wanted to quit. I was a pastor's kid, been in ministry since I was 20. I'm like, Lord, I'm 40. I'm out like this. There's. I'm not doing this anymore. Your people are off the chain, like, no, thank you. And it was on that walk with the Lord that, you know, he gave me this phrase, raised to stay. I didn't know what it meant. I just. Just ran home and I got all the handles. That's what good creatives do. I got all of the websites, I got all of the Instagram and social media, you know, platforms, and I just hashtag this one black box that said the church did not hurt you. A few broken people did. Don't give up. You were raised to stay. Hashtag raised to stay. I had, like, 200 followers, you know, and I walked away from that and came home, like, one day after work, and my DMs were exploding like. Like, thank you for saying this. This is what I'm struggling with. And I'm like, are you kidding me right now? Like, this is what people want to talk about. And so every day I showed up on this Instagram space and just wrote one black box with white writing about why I wasn't going to quit, why I was going to wrestle with this season. And before I knew it, we were like a hundred thousand people deep of these stayers that were like, I'm still really struggling, but I don't want to give up on Jesus. And that has been the dialogue that has been for the last six years of just, okay, guys, like, I'm not going to quit. You're not going to quit. Jesus didn't quit. But let's have the real conversations about why we are probably wrestling with some of the stuff we're seeing, especially in the American church, and also how we can help each other and spur each other on, just as Paul did in the New Testament, to remind the church why the church is good because it's God's, and why it's okay to struggle with people, but also stay with Jesus. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and you're very honest, too, which I think. I think you say a lot of the things that people are thinking and you're not afraid to say things that are. That are true and that are real. I love a challenger. And so you've got a bit of that in you. And so I think that's why I was. I was drawn to you. But what's one of the biggest reasons that you're seeing for why people are maybe walking away and not wanting to stay? [00:42:43] Speaker B: Well, I think there's two things at play. I think, one, there have been a lot of people who were raised in. In church, especially through the 90s. I would say Gen Z, millennials probably resonate with this a little bit more than Gen or Gen X, and millennials probably resonate more than Gen Z and below, because our parents made church such a priority, and that's so wonderful. But there was also a lot of religion attached to that. So between purity culture and honor culture and sweeping things under the rug and just do it because I said and all of that, I think. I think a lot of people started to detangle from religion and through social media, through unhealthy relations with others that were maybe not walking with the Lord, that detangling became deconstruction, and that deconstruction became destruction. And so there were healthy things that were happening. Like, yeah, shame is not part of the gospel. You know, condemnation not part of the gospel. What I wear as a woman shouldn't really be the prime focus of what we're talking about as Christians. But it was. And so to detangle, that was super healthy. But then things took a turn, and now people were walking away not only from the church, but from their faith and felt justified in doing so. That's number one. Number two, I do believe that there have been a lot of unhealthy shepherds, a lot of wolves in sheep's clothing who have been allowed to stay in position because of their following, because of their charisma, because of their popularity, and they were harming people. And so now there is a just no trust in leadership. And so we see all of the social media of showing how glamorous it is to be an exvangelical ex evangelical. We know that there's a glamour to that of bucking the system and saying, you're not going to take me down like you did my parents. But then also a general. I just don't trust pastors. And it seems like every day we turn on the news, we're hearing one more story. So I really wanted to offer a space that gave us a place to wrestle with all of those things, but also keep us pointed directly on God so that we could remember what Paul said. Hey, I've been beaten up in the wilderness. I've been lost in the city. I've been shipwrecked three times. I've been betrayed by those I thought were my enemies and those I thought were my brothers. Others, like, it's church hurt 101. Right? [00:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is a. What's a misconception? Because there is cynicism. There is cynicism. People are skeptical. And like you said, for good reason to an extent. Right. What's a misconception that people maybe have when they hear your call to stay? [00:45:16] Speaker B: From day one, everybody was like, oh, are you telling me to stay in an abusive church? No. Like, you know, I think Christians, again, are just looking not. And I wouldn't even say Christians. Christians. I think lukewarm Christians were looking for a reason to run. And anything that gave them permission to run, they were going to run with. So when they would say that, I would say, no. Just like, we're not going to tell Someone, an abusive marriage or a toxic marriage to stay. We're not going to tell people to stay in a church where your pastor is abusing sheep or where leadership is narcissistic. Like, that's not what we're saying. What I really believe the Lord took me to in John 15 was that word, abide. That if you will abide in me or if you'll remain in me, all of those words means stay. If you'll tarry with me, then I will remain. Stay, Terry. Abide with you. And as we do this, you're going to produce good fruit. And what is that good fruit? Well, it's Galatians. It's the. It's the Galatians fruit model of patience, perseverance, peace, joy. I mean, all of those things. And so even when we don't feel all of this like staying, we remember that if we're with God, if we're abiding with him, then he will produce good fruit in us to help us know, should we stay, should we go, should we resign, or should we fight for healthy culture? And as a result of that, people will know that we are his disciples, not by staying in a toxic church, but by hanging onto Jesus even in hard seasons. [00:46:40] Speaker A: And I think we're so uncomfortable with discomfort, too, that it's like, well, if this is not perfect, then I must need to go. Or if this is not doing. You know, if the thing that I was attracted to this church for is no longer happening, if that program is no longer here, or that pastor is no longer here, or the person that was leading my small group is no longer here, then that must be reason enough for me to leave. And it's like, no, sometimes you're supposed to stay so that, like you said, you can be the change. You can make change. You can point out the things maybe that need to be changed and then be the voice and the cheerleader behind, like, making it better. [00:47:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I want to just reiterate this. This is an American church problem. This is absolutely an American church problem. Because when I go over to different countries, countries, they are fighting for their cultures, they're fighting for their teams. There is multiple nations represented. They are not all caught up in politics. And the things that we're caught up in, they are literally, for some of them, fighting for their freedom, fighting for their safety. And so when we see God's global church at work, we see this unified church that is one that is on mission with the Great Commission, the Great Command. And then you bring us into this American Model where we're like, if it hurts, I don't want to be part of it. And, you know, it's like, like. But we were told that we were going to have to pick up a cross and die daily if we were to follow Jesus. And Jesus tells the disciples in Matthew 10, he's like, look, it's not a matter of if, but when you're drug into the local facilities and you're flogged for your faith. Like, it's not a matter of if or, you know, it's when you get arrested and when you are persecuted in my name. But don't worry about what you're going to say because the Holy Spirit will give you everything you need. And I think we just let you lack the sensitivity to the Holy Spirit to know how to discern our season, to know how to communicate it, and to have the fruit of the spirit of, like, just perseverance. Yeah. Not in toxicity, but in a hard season. And to let God produce good fruit even in that hard season. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Well, and that's what I was thinking too. Like, yeah, if you have to be uncomfortable in order to grow joy. Joy to grow, patience to grow. Not just perseverance, not just of staying, but, like, it's in those situations where you're going to be able to learn how to produce fruit. That's how we're going to find the deep friendships, because we're going to have wrestled through all of that ish together and, like, gone. Hey, we came out on the other side still celebrating and loving each other. [00:49:12] Speaker B: My closest girlfriends, my closest sacred sisters are the ones who were in that soil with me. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:17] Speaker B: The ones I still talk to every day. The ones that are in my life on social media and on my phone and phone call and a call away are all people that were in that season with me in 2019 where I wanted to quit, and they sat in the soil with me and they didn't let me give up. [00:49:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, for people that are listening, that are like, well, I'm having a hard time staying. I want to stay, but I also want to go. What hope would you give them? [00:49:42] Speaker B: You know, I just would say. Hebrews 12 tells us to model how Jesus did it. And I think sometimes we look at how the world is doing it and we're thinking, oh, that looks good. But Jesus model models it. Jesus models that. Even in all of the heartbreak, even in all of the betrayal, he still finished his assignment. He didn't give up on us. He went to the cross. He remained in position. He could have called 10,000 angels down to reveal his identity and been like, see, I told you I was the son of God. Peace out. You know, he didn't. He stayed on that cross for the joy set before him, which was you and I. And he finished what he started. And here's what was the result of that. There was a resurrection three days later. [00:50:17] Speaker A: Later. [00:50:17] Speaker B: And I know that what feels like is going to be our crucifixion right now feels like the death of us. But there is a resurrection coming. There is a Sunday morning coming, and there is a miracle attached to the season of pain. And so many of us quit before the resurrection because it hurts. And I just want to encourage you, take it from someone who has lived through many a crucifixions as I have taken up my cross and followed Jesus, that I have never been forsaken. I have never, never been lost. I have never been forgotten that God has shown up in one way or another and revealed his power. And that is what Satan is banking on. If you want to be mad at anybody, be mad at Satan, the one who's trying to steal, kill and destroy your soul. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:55] Speaker B: But remember that there is a resurrection coming and there is a new day coming. And you are going to put a big foot in Satan's face when you come up out of that tomb stronger than you started. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And being, you know, we're just a little bit different than Jesus, but one of the ways is like he got crucified and, you know, resurrected once. We're going to go through multiple of. [00:51:14] Speaker B: Those all the time. Yeah, all the time. We model once. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Nope. Now we're gonna die to something else. Like now it's gonna happen again. [00:51:24] Speaker B: Every day is death to something and that's it. You don't get a crucifix, you don't get a resurrection without a crucifixion. And that's all I've learned, is that, you know, if I want new life, I've got to die over and over again. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Natalie, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:51:42] Speaker B: Just remember, you are the ecclesia. When we talk about the church. We are individual churches. We are not a building, we are not a location. We are walking around little sanctuaries of peace everywhere we go. And we need to be safe places for everyone we meet, from our kids, friends to our peers, to our co workers to the people that we do life with at the grocery stores. Just remember that you are probably the only time Some person will meet Jesus. And that is a huge responsibility and a massive privilege to know that we get to carry the spirit of the living God within us. So just keep shining your light bright and being those safe sanctuaries for everyone. [00:52:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Yes. Trust Holy Spirit in you. [00:52:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:20] Speaker A: God knew what he was doing. He picked you on purpose. Natalie, thank you so much. We will link up all of your books and everything else. Guys, ladies, actually, especially. There's my Midwest coming out. I'm like, guys, ladies, get the book. I don't even like women. Or guys, get it for a friend. Buy it for someone else. Buy it for your sister or your wife, your mom, somebody else. Natalie, thank you so much for being here. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for having me. [00:52:51] Speaker A: You get to be Jesus to people. You get to take the light of God's hope and glory and goodness and love everywhere you go. You get to become the church to the people around you in everything you do. So go out and do just that, knowing that you don't have to hide, have all the answers or live a perfect life. You just have to be willing for the Holy Spirit to move in and through you, no matter where you are or what you're doing. And if it helps, just remember that I believe in you and I'm cheering you on as you go. You can do this. Thanks so much for listening. And until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around you.