Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Mochler Young. And today I've got two guests, Beth Silvers and Sarah Stuart Holland, hosts of Pantsuit Politics, a podcast where they take a different approach to the news. This is actually part two of the conversation that we started with them last week on their book now what? Where we talked about tension in families, friction in friendships, and even conflict that leads to church hurt. If you missed it, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode first, because those relationships really are the foundation for our lives. Even when we think what we're upset about our politics or policies, it's really because we're adding these things onto layers of unspoken expectations and shifting dynamics, all of which we talked about last week. After that, you'll be ready for this conversation where Sarah and Beth show us and model for us how to have a conversation with nuance and complexity that creates space for the humanity of other people. Let's get into it.
So let's. Let's turn the page. Let's get a little bit more political here now on your podcast on Pantsuit politics, your intro used to be, I'm Sarah from the left. And I'm Beth from the right. But now you say, you know, we're pantsuit politics, where we take a different approach to the news. So I want to explore that a little bit. And, Beth, maybe start with you. And the goal here is not to persuade anyone to one side or the other. We're not talking about who to vote for or how you should feel about any of the political candidates.
But I do want to normalize people changing their minds and really thinking about what they believe and what they think and why.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: I.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: So, Beth, can you just explain a little bit how your beliefs and views have changed over the past couple of years?
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I broke the catchy tagline.
It's some me and it's some the world. I think what left and right mean have always been different to different people and in flux, but increasingly so, and certainly since we started the show in 2015. You know, right was really in transition when we started the show.
So from the beginning, people from the right were angrier with me than people who would have identified as from the left because they felt like I wasn't a good enough representative of their views. I wasn't hard enough. Right.
And I hate disappointing people very, very much. And so I found that really tough, and it wore on me. And then the Trump presidency did not align with my values. It just didn't.
And the moment that I decided, I have to make a change, we were out speaking a lot, and immigration was on fire in the news, and we would be out speaking, and people would say, like, it just hurts me to hear Beth from the right, because I interpret the right as you don't want me here.
And soon after, we were starting to get that. Coming up in Q and a moments, President Trump said that some of our representatives should go back where they came from.
And that was the moment. I saw it on my tv, and I got my phone out. I didn't talk to Sarah or anybody. I just changed my party registration on my phone right then.
And I found that not hard, honestly, it was harder from a business perspective than a personal perspective, because I never aligned really well with the Republican Party. I talk about this in our book as, like, the republican brand was always, like, a pair of jeans that I had to really squeeze myself into. And that's true about the democratic party, either. Neither of them fit well, and that is okay. I have since changed my registration back to republican because all of our local races come down to republican primaries, and that's where my vote matters the most. And so because Kentucky has closed primaries and because of where I live, that is where I can make the most impact. And it is okay that those jeans don't fit. I'm still just gonna, like, put a toe in them and go vote and do what I can do, because that's really. That's what voting represents. Now, this isn't true for everybody. There are people who are true party people who are going to party meetings. They're building the party, they're recruiting candidates, they're working on campaigns. And for them, I think this is a lot harder. But for me, it is about strategy in my life and in my work. It's about being honest with people about who I am and what I'm about. And so now I would say there are issues where Sarah is to my left. There are issues where I am to her left.
Our personality probably impacts how we view the world more than anything else, more than any political philosophy. But we do differ on some political philosophy as well. So I just hope that my registration is the least interesting thing about me, and I hope I can continue to feel this freedom to vote strategically and to accept. It's kind of like the churches again, if I get a candidate who bats 300, that's pretty good. And if it's the right 300, I'll take it.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think you just gave freedom to people, too, Beth. That, again, it goes back to the whole, like, binary, bipartisan. We have to be one or we have to be the other. And just the fact that you said, like, neither of these fit me. Well, I think a lot of people feel that. But then they think because we've been told, no, you have to find the one that fits or you have to force yourself into one of them. Pick one or pick the other, but you have to force yourself into them. And I think you just, maybe for the first time, for some people listening, gave them the option that, no, there is a third option, and it's not a third pair of pants. It's not like, hey, here's the other thing that's going to fit perfectly, but it's that, no, neither of those work. And it's okay.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: I really love that you said it's not a third pair of pants either. Because the thing that I try to avoid is claiming that independent mantra and wearing that like a badge of honor.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: There are people who try to really check out of this whole system. You know, I never identified this election. There was a lot of talk for a while about the double haters, and I never identify that way either. I am happy to support a lot of Democrats running for office, and I am happy to support a few republicans right now running for office. And that that volume may shift at different times, but I don't want to give up on or opt out of the system. And I don't want to think of myself as superior because neither label fits me well. And I think that's an unhealthy dynamic that permeates some of our political discussion for those of us who don't find either party to be a very comfortable fit.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Yeah. When it keeps us out of the US versus them mentality, too, of the fact that you changed to Democrat, the democratic party, and then you went back to Republican. We're allowed to change our minds.
[00:07:37] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Sarah, have you ever felt either pressure to change sides or have you ever considered again, not that it has to be one or the other, but have you ever thought through these things?
[00:07:48] Speaker C: Well, I grew up in the Southern Baptist church, so I definitely considered myself a. Did I consider myself a Republican? I guess I did. I don't remember ever like using that label. Yeah. But I was a teenager on the Southern Baptist church, so I was very passionately pro life.
And then I went to college and every Southern Baptist parents nightmare went to a liberal arts college, got indoctrinated and I have been a proud and happy Democrat since the age of 18, since I could register for a party. I registered as a Democrat.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:27] Speaker C: The only time, and it's very recent, that I ever considered changing my party identification. I've thought about it, like, just strategically, like, God, at least I could, like, vote out some of these more extreme republicans in the primaries, or, I mean, not single handedly, but do my part.
But I just, like, I don't think I could. I don't think I could do it. Is this the honest truth? The only time I've really sort of felt that angst and had more sympathy for people's journey inside the republican party over the last few years is during the debate this summer about Joe Biden dropping out of the candidate of the presidential campaign. I said to my husband and my best friend, if he doesn't drop out, I'm going to change my party identification. I cannot do this if he stays. Because I was livid. I just, it was so abundantly clear to me that he could not run and had to leave. And I was angry that I felt like people, Democrats, who have always trusted to sort of govern intelligently. It's not that every Democrat everywhere does the right thing. Hell, I worked for Bob Menendez, and he's going to jail. Okay? So, like, it's not that I think Democrats are, like, superior moral creatures, but I have always felt sort of within the Democratic Party, you know, as a Senate staffer working for Hillary Clinton's campaign, running for office myself, even though I ran for a nonpartisan position, a dedication to, you know, good governments, if the evidence says this is what we should do, this is what we should do.
I think there are tough questions where the evidence isn't clear that sometimes Democrats get wrong, especially in blue states where there's not a lot of pushback or criticism, but. And overall, that's how I felt. And I thought, man, if we see this and it's so abundantly clear and we don't do it just for a lack of will. Cause that's the other thing. I'm proud about being a Democrat. I'm proud of electing the first black man, hoping we're gonna elect the first woman, sort of taking risks because it's the right thing to do. And so I thought, and, man, if this, this isn't a party, I recognize if we can't do this legally, didn't turn out that way. But, no, I mean, I'm a pretty happy warrior inside the Democratic Party. You know, I've had struggles since the pandemic with the far left wing of the progressive party often represented by my 15 year old son.
We have lots of internal party battles inside our house, but, you know, especially since, you know, I grew, you know, I'm 43, so I remember when politicians I respected still defended the Defense of Marriage act and did not support gay marriage, ones we all kind of forget about, including Hillary and Barack. But since, though, since that position has shifted, there's just not a lot I see that. I'm like, no, that's not where I'm at. There's things that I roll my eyes at that I'm like, come on. But never where I feel like my values have been abandoned in the same way. I've never felt that way.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: And that's what I heard you saying. Underlying under all of that was like, goes back to values. And what do your values most align with?
[00:11:24] Speaker C: I mean, I think the biggest thing for me that I felt over the decades and still feel this, even though the party shifts so dramatically, is, you know, and this is sort of how Beth has always described as sort of brakes and, and gas pedal. Like, you know, as a Democrat, I just, I like government. I think it makes a good difference in people's lives. I think Medicaid and food stamps and, like, the social safety net and a strong national defense and public education. I believe in public education. Like, I don't think government is something that is this, like, sort of grand villain in our lives. It's just never, I don't see that as evidence in my life. I don't feel that sort of in my own lived existence. And that's just not how I think about things. To me, that's always been sort of my animating principle, and as a Democrat, is that I don't think government is the villain. Don't think it's perfect, think it's got lots of room for improvement. But I don't see it as a villain. And I definitely don't see, you know, the social safety net in particular as this sort of, like, villainous force inside Americans lives in the way other people do. And I think there's room for debate. I don't think that that's necessarily, like, the right way to do it. You know, I have a very particular lived existence that I know is different from a lot of other people's, but which is where I've, I've shaken out over my 43 years.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Well, it's hard to want to get involved in something or care about something that you villainized. Like, it's really hard to go, hey, this thing is so awful and so terrible. And so now I really want to be involved in, like, that's not how our psyches work.
[00:13:00] Speaker C: No. It's not a great governance plan either.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: To speak for the breaks, which is where we started.
I don't think government is a villain, but I think law is a very blunt instrument in a very gray world, and government functions through laws.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: And so I am always looking at the unintended consequences. The place where this is a hammer and what we needed is a toothbrush. You know, where is it the wrong tool to bring to the problem or the wrong tool to bring to all versions of the problem, which is what law often does. And so that's where I think I most, you know, I most tease out those differences with Sarah, is when we're talking about, okay, if we bring government to this problem, how can that work? Is it the right tool? And if it is, how do we keep that tool as sharp and focused as possible to mitigate unintended consequences or scope creep or intrusiveness?
[00:14:04] Speaker C: You know what's interesting? I think the older I get back to our previous conversation about people, and the older I get, the more I see government more. Less as laws and more as people. And that there is a policy. There's lots of policies and procedures and laws, and that's definitely the main tool through which government acts. But, like, it's people putting all those in place, it's people executing those processes. It's people, you know, enforcing the laws. And there's just a million infinitesimal decision making points that are not governed by law. They're governed by a person in that moment making that call. And I think, you know, what I've, where I've loosened, you would think some of my partisanship would have hardened over the Trump years. And I think where I've loosened and softened, I guess, is what I would say is watching people in those moments that I don't identify with as far as my party make the call. I would make and see, like, oh, see, no, there are, there are universal values here that people are making those. In those moments, they're making the call. And there wasn't a law. Supreme Court said definitely there's not a law being broken every time. But there's, there were decisions. Like, I think that's what we learned a lot in the Trump years, is, like, some of this is just norms. Some of this is just, what do we do? What do we do? Doesn't come in. There's a law required but it's just, what do we do in these moments? And it's, you know, it's made me less partisan and more patriotic, I think, to watch over the last few years, people with very different politics than mine say, no, that's not what we do as Americans, not as Republicans, not as Democrats, but that's not what we do. That's not what we stand for. This is what the government is supposed to be doing and nothing else. You know, I think some of the bravest, most patriotic stories you can read right now are like republican secretaries of state and like deep rural Arizona out there just doing the work, trying their best to run an election and follow the rules in the sight of a lot of cultural and societal heat they're feeling from their friends and neighbors. And, you know, that's not about partisanship. That's about something deeper. And watching those people make those calls gives me a lot of faith in government, even from people who think about government very differently than I do.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: There's that capacity for risk that Sarah has again, because people get really uncomfortable about that idea. Like when you, when you go to law school, suddenly everyone in your life starts saying like, well, isn't this against the law? And you are always saying, well, it depends. And they hate that.
[00:16:32] Speaker C: Maybe. Sure.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: And that's true about policy, too. I just spent a good ten days immersed in project 2025, and there are many parts of it that I just wholesale reject and find very toxic. There are lots of other ideas where if I close my eyes and imagine different politicians saying these things, they sound really different to me, just depending on the person attached who would be doing this. Okay, well, that really significantly changes whether I think this is super toxic or maybe kind of healthy or could be a fantastic idea. I would love to empower that person to do this. It comes down to trust. I'm sure the same is true with churches. You probably say things in sermons that if they were voiced the exact words by a different minister, it would land completely differently with people. Because at the end of the day, we're taking everybody on faith that they're going to show up and inhabit a position with integrity true to who they told us that they were and acting in the best interest of the people they're supposed to be serving.
[00:17:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely think you're like, trust in humanity is, is probably even underneath the governance because, you know, I have a lot of trust in people. Listen, I'm ready to bring back the smoke filled rooms. I don't, I don't think direct democracy is always the best idea inside party primaries.
I'll let Nancy Pelosi pick every time. I don't even care.
And so, you know, I can sound like a founding father where they're like, should we really put it to the people's all the time? I don't know, because people don't have all the information or the expertise or the understanding. And, you know, I do trust people. I think for the most part, people are doing the best they can and want to do the right thing. And I survived a school shooting. It's not like I haven't lived through evil acts of other people.
But that does seem to be like the breakdown I experience a lot in political conversations. It's just the sense of, like, they are doing this and they want to do this and that. And I'm like, who are you talking about? Like, I just don't. I don't get that sense of threat from my fellow human beings. I think there's a role for that in the community.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: You.
[00:18:45] Speaker C: I mean, you wouldn't want to put me in charge of the military. I'm not going to lie to you, although I can get pretty hawkish quickly. But I think there's a place for that. A person who has a much higher sense of threat and concern about security, but they also can't just be by themselves in a room. They have to have some people pushing on them because that can go to a dangerous place really quickly, too.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Before we get into Sarah and Beth talking specifically about how they decide who and what to vote for, I just have to give you a little bit of encouragement. One of my favorite things about you, our listeners, is that you are so diverse. Not only do we have people listening in over 25 countries across the globe, but you are also diverse and thought and your levels of faith, especially in this conversation, I want to ask you to be open to listening and to get curious about any thoughts or feelings that may pop up as certain terms or names are mentioned. We get to create the world we want to live in as we play our parts in this shared experience. And one way you can help shape the world around you is by sharing resources and other things that have helped you to learn and transform. If this episode is helping you to think about what you think or to better understand someone who doesn't think like you, I'd love for you to share this episode with them. Even better. You can send it in a group or a family text so the person that you really want to hear it doesn't even know that you sent it. Just for them. You can also share it on your social media and let people know how this episode specifically has helped you. Be sure to tag me, Beth and Sarah when you do so we can share it as well. Now let's hear from Sarah and Beth in their own words on how we can move forward when we're divided about basically everything.
When you guys talked about, and I'll link it up in the show notes, I recently listened to your episode where you talked about Project 2025 and, you know, Beth, you had gone through all of it and the whole thing, and your conversation was, you know, there are a lot of really good things in here, but like, basically the noise of the US versus them and the, well, I don't like that this person is saying it, that it's all going to kind of get lost. Like maybe even the good ideas get lost because there is so much extra added and layered and takes our focus. So what do we do when it comes to if we want to try to be people who are voting our values, who are voting for issues rather than a party that we're affiliated with? What do people do when they're voting? If they really care about an issue but that particular party then is in an opposition on another thing that they value? Like, how do you, does that make sense?
[00:21:33] Speaker B: I mean, most of politics is about priorities.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: How you serve while you're in office is about what issues you prioritize. There will always be more need and opportunity, a bigger field than you can hope to touch. And so you just have to rank and say, this is what's most important to me. And I think probably a better practice than even ranking those issues is, is doing what Sarah talked about and really leaning into who do I trust to inhabit this office? Because, you know, George W. Bush did not want to be a foreign policy president. It's not what he ran on. It's not where his passion was. But 911 happened and he had to be a foreign policy president.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: And so even more than combing through people's statements of what they want to do, their websites, looking at things like Project 2025, I think that stuff's fascinating.
But the truth about the president, especially, but the truth about the mayor and the senator and everybody else is that the world is going to dictate more of what they do than those papers do.
And so who do I trust to adapt to the circumstances and make the calls about the things that we haven't predicted, I think is the best you can do. And then know that if you get that wrong, that's fine. It's fine. Sometimes people will disappoint you.
It doesn't mean that you have to change everything about yourself or apologize or never vote again. Like, people are people and some of them you'll bet on and it'll turn out to be a bad bet or something will happen to them that you didn't anticipate that changes something about them again. That's where the grace comes in. You just have to know, like, well, I'll see what happens in the next election.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Sarah, I want you to answer this question in a second, too. But, Beth, I just have to, that did something emotional to me when you just said, you know, it's okay and you can make a mistake and people might disappoint you and they may not turn out to be who you thought you were electing. I don't know why. I just feel, I like him. So emotional I could cry. I feel like that's something that I, I didn't know I needed to hear, if that makes sense.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: And I think a lot of people probably look back like, I know, you know, your vote is powerful and your vote is your voice and your vote matters. But I know, at least for me, who also grew up, you know, very much in the church and with the idea of I need to save people and a lot of, like, what happens in the world is my responsibility.
I think there's been some guilt also in past elections and ways that I have voted to, where in my mind I'm like, if only I had learned better, faster, if only I had understood more, then I could have voted differently and then we would have been in a different place, you know? And so I just want to thank you for, for that, because, Kristen, I.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Have voted for Mitch McConnell multiple times, you know, and I find him extremely disappointing.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: In very consequential ways, in ways that hit my 300, he has let me down.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: But it's not a personal relationship. He didn't say, I'm gonna let beth down.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: And I could have voted for someone else and he still would have won. So we do really have to take some pressure off this. If we can't do that for ourselves, how are we gonna do it for our friends and our family members, everyone else in the United States? Like, we all have to hold this a little bit more loosely. It's a hard thing because I think the work Sarah and I do, we're like, take it seriously, be willing to talk about it, think about it, investigate it, but then also, like, let it go.
And both of those things have to be true at the same time.
[00:25:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I always like it when people start talking about policy and their voting decisions. I have to really catch myself not to, like, smugly pat them on the head because I think it's so silly. Is so silly. Do you understand how big government is, especially the presidency? So let's say you prioritize pro life issues and you got what you wanted, and Roe v. Wade was overturned. And there have been more abortions every year in America since that that decision was overturned than before. So exactly how's that math work out? And I'm not saying you should have predicted that. Should I have been voting for republicans because I'm pro choice so that they overturn Roe v? I mean, that doesn't. I'm not saying that. I'm not asking you to be a fortune teller. That doesn't even make any sense either. I'm just saying, like, to pretend like it's a math and I'm about this. Put this person in and they stand for this position, and that's how this position is going to fall out policy wise in a country of 330 million people. Is crazy time. Is crazy time. Like, you just don't know. And so a lot of what, you know, I prioritize is expertise.
Like, I want to see some. I want to see, like, you take this seriously, that you have the proper expertise. And yes, a lot of times that looks like a lawyer on the Democratic Party. So thrilled to have Tim walls and his teacher background to just least break the freaking streak.
But you know, that there's a certain amount of expertise and prioritization of what is important to me. Understanding that, like, we can't predict 911, we can't predict a pandemic. You know, like, it's just there is. You know, I think there's a lot of criticism, like a vibes election or you're voting emotionally. What really, really bothers me is that there's this judgment or, like, you're just voting for her because she's a woman. Well, I'm sorry. That is something I can wholeheartedly predict, that it will matter that we finally have female representation in the highest office of the land. That matters. Why is that a silly reason to vote? It mattered that we elected a black president. That matters. Like, to me, like, just blowing off something that someone connects to, insane, like, kind of rolling your eyes.
Even though I do do that. When people say policy positions is so sort of, you know, silly, I just think so much of politics is personality, life experience.
Like, the vibe do they remind you of a bad boss? Like, just everybody let it go. We go to colleges, and they're like, what if I get it wrong? Well, maybe they're gonna let you do it again. Good news. You know, like, get it wrong. They're not gonna revoke your, you know, your voting card. They might. You might probably should check that. But always check your voter registration, everybody. But, you know, like, it's not. It's not a test. And so, although hilariously, the only time I did vote for a Republican and sort of, I guess, in service to our larger mission here at fancy politics, and there was some positions of this politician who, on foreign policy that I respected, so I was like, I'm just gonna try this out. I'm a vote Republican. And they try to kick me out of my local democratic party, and one of my friends still texts me about it ten years later. So I'm probably not the best example of trying on a different partisanship reside. My Democrat friends will never let me forget it. Guys, I'm gonna be talking about this when I'm 80. That one time I voted for a Republican. It's ridiculous.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Well, I love that even the two of you just approach this differently. You know, Beth, you're like policy, and these are the things. And Sarah, you're like, not. Not policy. And it's. Again, I just. I'm finding so much freedom in this conversation, and I really highly encourage everybody listening to jump over to pantsuit politics because you guys have conversations like this all of the time. And I think it both educates people and also gives them freedom to break out of, you know, the binary.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Well, and I think people feel like they have to have this expertise and they don't like what we always say is the only thing you need to be as a citizen to participate in conversations or elections.
There is. There is not a. There is not a test like there used to be. We fought very hard to get rid of that, and so, like, we don't do that anymore. Everybody gets to participate. I wish we had Australia's laws. I wish you was mandatory voting, and if you wanted to vote for Beyonce, great. Sounds fun.
Let's do it. Let's. Just. Because there's a. There's a momentum. We want to intellectualize everything. Like, right. Like, we want to think through. I try to intellectualize parenting. Let me tell you how well that goes terribly. It doesn't matter how smartly I explain something to my nine year old. It doesn't matter. And I think we have this. This default. We want to intellectualize everything. And some. A part of politics is muscle memory. Some of it is just having these conversations, getting through them, realizing you're fine. Like Barack Obama coming out the next day, there's gonna be a Wednesday, you know, like, it's gonna happen. Like, you know. You know why I roll my eyes every time somebody says, it's the election of our lifetime? Because I'm 43. You know how many of those I've lived through? A lot.
And so it's just like. It's just kind of getting there. Even just George W. Bush. George W. Bush felt like the end of the world to the Democratic Party. And then during his terms, like, he. We loathed him. He was going to change everything. We were not ever going to win again. And so there's just a part of me that, like, I just remember that and remember that it was, in fact, not true. And so, like, that kind of the more I think you. I think that the instinct is just to tune out that high stakes emotional situation of politics and, like, just roll your eyes and think it doesn't matter. But it does matter. A better instinct is just to chuckle and keep going, you know, like, oh, that's funny. I realize they do that every time, but it still matters, and I still gotta vote, and I still gotta participate, and it's just people being people and sort of embracing that. Same with the church. Right. The better instinct, instead of getting mad, angers, secondary emotion, anyway, is just sort of to chuckle and embrace people and their. Their delightful weirdness.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Beth, do you have anything they want to add?
[00:31:33] Speaker B: I agree. I think voting is civic hygiene. You brush your teeth, you vote. You just. Every time you can vote, you just go vote. And you don't have to like your options. You don't have to know that much about them, and you don't have to feel a sole sense of responsibility for the direction of the country. You just keep doing it, because over time, more people doing it is better. Often in Kentucky, more people voting means the person that I would like to win the election will lose, because the people who aren't voting typically disagree with me. It's still better for them to vote. Over time, it is still better for more people to participate.
And so, you know, I would just encourage everyone every single time. You can go, go brush your teeth. It's. It's. In the long run, you're making a positive difference.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: So in the. In the christian world, especially, we hear things, and I feel like those are the people that maybe you're even talking to, Beth, because they'll say things like, well, at the end of the day, like, jesus is still on the throne or God is still in control. And like, yes, that is true. But also that feels dismissive. It feels like a way of going. I don't actually have to care about politics or policy or any of it because my vote doesn't really matter because God is already appointed and he's going to decide.
Go with that. Like, Sarah's rolling.
[00:32:53] Speaker C: My grandmother says that craps me all the time, and I hate it.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: It's just a different. It's a different orientation to the world than I have, you know? Okay, I.
One of the things that I love about God and that has informed my politics is the idea of free will.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: What I have learned about the church over time from the church is that maybe God could be in control, but opted out and said, you live in love the way you decide to live in love.
And what I love in the stories and teachings of Jesus is you are here to do things. You are not here to sit back and see what we do with you. You are not puppets on strings. You are here to do and to create.
And in so many ways, that is a distinctive feature of being human, our capacity to create.
And so I just think that God is not in control, that God could be, but isn't, and that we are in charge of being the hands and feet here.
And sometimes that expresses itself politically, but much more often it expresses itself in every other way.
And so, yes, I think voting is a part of, is one expression of faith. It's one way to be the hands and feet. And I think if that's your only way, then you're missing it, too.
[00:34:21] Speaker C: I just don't think that gets a single person comforted. It's not a comforting argument. It doesn't get anybody to church. It doesn't convince anyone about your politics. Like, what I hear when my grandmother says that to me is what you care about really doesn't matter to me, because all that matters to me is that I get to heaven. I don't really care what happens here to you or to me. And that does not make me want to go to church.
It doesn't change my mind politically.
It really just creates distance between her and me. Because the quickest way to create distance with another human is to look at them and say, what you care about doesn't matter to me. And that's what you're doing. You're saying, what you care about doesn't matter, and nobody wants to hear that. Like, whether it's a nine year old obsessing about Fortnite or a 45 year old obsessing about an election. Like, it's not that you have to hold both. I'm often talking out both sides of my mouth with my 15 year old. This matters. And also, it's not the end of the world. We have to hold both things. But that's not how to articulate that. Like, to use, you know, heaven and God as a way to say, get over it. Like, you don't understand human psychology, because that ain't the way.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah. To me, feels like an excuse to not have to watch and listen. I grew up for a long time, I was like, I don't watch the news, and I'm going to live in my little bubble. But really, it was because I didn't understand it, and I didn't want to put in the time or the brain capacity or the effort to try and understand it. I was like, I'm happy right now not knowing what's happening, not listening to the division, not listening to the voices. And I was so happy for my mom and dad just to tell me who to vote for. And I did, until all of a sudden I realized, no, no, that actually doesn't work anymore. And like you said, beth, so. Well, as a human, as someone who claims Christianity, yeah. Our job is to try to make this world a better place and pretending that we don't live in the world that God has put us in, in this time, in this place right now, specifically and uniquely.
Yeah. It's kind of prideful to just sit back and be like, no, I don't have to play a part in this like everybody else.
[00:36:41] Speaker C: Well, I don't know. This is a weighted word, but it's just privilege. You feel that way because you have the resources to escape the consequences of these decisions.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:49] Speaker C: I mean, that's just the long and short of it. And I think, you know, I want to say to people, you don't need a law degree, and you don't need to dedicate a lot of time to learn all this. Like, what we always tell people is pick one mostly neutral news source. There's not a truly neutral news source because just like churches and just like government media organizations are composed of human beings.
But pick a source. Pick a podcast every morning. Every New York Times, Washington Post, NPR, Wall Street Journal, every the Economist, the BBC, they all have, like, an under ten minute daily headline podcast, every single one of them. And if you just say, I'm gonna listen to it every day, I'm gonna give it seven minutes. Over time, you will gain the understanding that you need. Like, you'll. You'll stop being so intimidated. You'll be like, oh, I remember that story. I remember that this is a longer term thing. I get that. These are the players in this piece. You'll gain it. Seven minutes a day is like babble. You know, you learn French in seven minutes a day. I can promise you can understand the news in seven minutes a day.
[00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Our friend Erica Mandy is very good at this, too. On the podcast called the newsworthy. It is like seven minutes every morning and is straight down the middle.
Just a really good way to keep you fresh on what's happening. And that's enough, because if we get consumed with our political identity, and especially if we hook it with our faith and decide this is the way I'm the hands and feet in the world, then it gets. That gets weird, too. You know, it's all about calibration. How do I stay attached to this and participate as a citizen and also know that I'm a lot of other things.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: And I think you guys touched on this also in now what? But really. And this is what opened my eyes, I think, to engaging in politics at all is realizing that it's actually about getting me outside of my own experience. Right. Like, it is a privileged thing to sit and go, no, this is my world, and it operates only through my own lens, and everyone has the same lived experience I do. That's just not true.
And so I think there's. And tell me if you guys would agree that's a. That's a big part of it, is helping people to see the world outside of their own experiences.
[00:39:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Never trust a politician who thinks they have all the answers. That's a red flag.
[00:39:08] Speaker A: Or a pastor.
[00:39:09] Speaker C: That's. Or. Right. Exactly. That's exactly right. When you ask me, my political leader at the beginning, who. I would have answered still, I almost did, but I was like, no, three is too many. Don't do it.
Is Abraham Lincoln. I mean, Doris Kern's goodwin brilliant book, team of rivals, articulates that the way he was able to lead us through this impossibly hard moment and got us through as a nation. His biggest political gift was empathy. He just could feel other people's perspectives. He was interested in other people's perspectives. He did not believe that he had all the answers. He was incredibly humble when it came to, like, people are people, you know, he got in trouble with his generals all the time because he'd always pardon people who deserted because he was just incredibly empathetic and not only understanding that his perspective was limited, but sincerely curious and interested in other people's perspectives. That's just so important in all leadership. Like you said, church, schools, definitely politics. Yeah.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: I think the reason that the word privilege is controversial and loaded is that some people hear that and think a couple of things. Like, one is that I'm supposed to now devalue my own experiences instead of holding that my experiences exist alongside other people's and they all matter.
So I think that happens on one side. You get really defensive and like, well, what they're saying is because you're a white lady, you have nothing to contribute.
[00:40:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: You sit in this privilege, and so what you feel, what you see, what bothers you or what you celebrate, it doesn't count.
[00:40:46] Speaker A: Also doesn't matter. Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: And then I think the other side of it is when you say, oh, my gosh, I have all this privilege. I'm supposed to use it for good. It can be easy to co opt other people's experiences to decide not only am I interested in them and not only do I care about them, but I know what they are, and I decide that those must direct me in all things. We have a lot of, like, really well meaning women who write to us white women to tell us what black women think. As though all black women think a single thing about any topic.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: And it is coming from this sincere desire to put their privilege aside and have empathy and care about other people. But it gets lost, too. It's a really difficult thing to say. I just need to be awake to the fact that others feel differently. You know, others see it differently, others live differently. And I want to remember that my lens is not the only lens, but it is a lens that is tough and that is a lifelong exercise. And it's almost like standing on 1ft. We're going to fall in and out of balance on that. But I think when people hear privilege, they don't hear that balancing act as much as either you don't matter anymore or you matter so much that you need to be sure you say the right thing about everything.
And that's a really uncomfortable place that I think we're a little stuck in and trying to. To work our way through right now.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: And that's another way that we turn people into projects accidentally, like we talked about earlier. You know, this people group is now my project.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Well, it actually sounds like they're your, their put your puppets, maybe. And that's. Yeah. Also not a good place to be.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Yes.
All right.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: Well, my last question for each of you, because the show is called becoming church, and we are trying to equip people to be the church to the people around them. How can the people listening do that and be the church, be good christians, be good reflections of Jesus to the people around them, specifically in this political season. Sarah, you want to start?
[00:43:00] Speaker C: I think one of the most powerful skills that Christ illustrates for us is the power of story and parable.
If you're rolling into a political conversation and you're using words like fix, write, I know if you're speaking in sort of black and white directives, there's a reason he didn't talk like that, because I don't think it works very well.
You know, I think you hear us. We talk a lot about metaphors. We talk a lot about our own life. Well, this is how I feel. This is how I experience that. This is the story that illustrates this for me. This is why this matters to me.
I think as much as you can lower the tenor of the conversation and speak in stories about your own experience, metaphors that make people chuckle or make people see that this is something that we're holding a little loosely, not because it doesn't matter, but because as best as no one expects us to leave our Thanksgiving table with an immigration plan, we do not have to submit that to the speaker of the House. It's not necessary. It's not going through committee.
The better. I think that, you know, when we get into these, these fistfights about really, really tough issues and they become black and white, and I'm right and you're wrong and you care and I don't. And you want kids to die, and I don't have. That's where we always go. That's just where everything goes, right to the kids dying. We do not skip go, we do not click $200. We go straight to, you want kids to die? And it's not working, guys. And that's exhausting. And also, it's kind of stupid.
So I would just encourage everybody to, if you want to, you know, be the hands and feet, watch what he did, you know, like, watch how he spoke to people. And parables don't as much as some people would like to say otherwise. They do not contain directives. They are not math equations where we read them and go, this is the takeaway. That's really not the point of a parable, because there isn't a point. That's the whole point is it's a question and I think political conversations that are curious and contain more questions than answers connect us to each other, make us feel invested as citizens, and, you know, maintain relationships much more than debates where we're just trying to gotcha and win and, you know, own the other side. It's not a YouTube channel. That's not what we're doing here.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: Yeah, Beth, same question to you.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: My favorite Bible verse is Jesus wept.
Because I love the Jesus that was just really here and really cared about other people and really saw them. And I like to lift it out of context sometime and imagine Jesus, like, laughing until he cried or, like, seeing the preview of that new Tom Hanks movie about the one room and just getting, like, nostalgic teared up about that. Like, I like to just imagine all the ways that Jesus saw people and that seeing and loving, translating to emotion. And I just think that's what the vast majority of people need, someone to see them, to see the work that they're doing. Like, if you're a manager, the way to be Jesus is to be like, you know what? You keep these files really organized every day. And I take it for granted that I'm going to look for something and it's going to be where it needs to be, but that's because of you. And I want you to know how helpful that is to me. Like, you don't have to overdo it, but just, I witness your contribution every day, and it is meaningful to me. And I think in the political season, I'm just saying, you know, I don't agree with you on many of these issues, but I see how much thought you're putting into it. I see how important this is to you. I'd love to hear about why this became so important to you. I'm curious.
I'm curious how we grew up in the same house and we see this really differently. What experiences do you think took us in different directions on this?
Here we are. Here we are at church together, and this feels real sticky because we know we're voting for different people. I'm curious what we find here that we share that becomes disconnected around these choices. I just think looking at people and saying, here is what I notice about you is the most loving thing that we can do. It's the hardest thing to do because we're all busy and our attention is consumed in our own experiences. And especially if we have kids, you know, they soak up a lot of that bandwidth to see other people.
And so to me, the most christ like thing we can do is just like, open our eyes to others and then use our voices to say, here's. Here's what I observe about you.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Jesus was interruptible, which is something that I have to constantly remind myself because, yes, I'm like Enneagram three. I'm busy. I'm onto the next. I'm doing the next thing. And I might think that about somebody, right? A co worker, my kids, my husband. I might think the thing, but I struggle to slow down and actually say the thing. And that's what makes all the difference, right? I can recognize somebody's humanity, but it's when I actually vocalize and tell them that, then they know so well. Thank you both so, so much for being here. I'm so grateful. I have listened to pantsuit politics for a while, and after this conversation, I am now a fan of not just the show, but of each of you as individuals, as people. So I just. I'm so grateful. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: Of course. Thank you for having us and for asking these questions about who we can be in the world.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: God is in control, but not as much as he could be. Your voice matters, and I do hope that you'll use it in the upcoming election to vote. Whether you vote for policies that you value, like Beth, or you vote for the person you're trusting to best represent you in their position, like Sarah, you only have the power that you take, and this is available for you. As always, I'd love for your feedback on the conversation. You can leave it in a review on Apple Podcasts, you can send me a message on our website becoming church tv, or you can chat with me over on Instagram. Rstanmachler Young until next time, thank you so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.
