Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Machar Young, and my guest today is Steve Carter. Steve is a pastor who had just stepped into the role of lead pastor at a megachurch when a major, major scandal happened to. And we're going to talk to Steve today about the choice that he had to face between following the direction of the church governance or whether he was being called to step out with integrity to do what was right and the backlash that he faced because of it. I do want to give you a small content warning that the story Steve's going to tell does involve sexual abuse. But we do not go into any details, and the conversation goes much farther, much past what was done in order to see a new way forward in the church and in the lives of everyone involved. Here's my conversation with Steve Carter.
All right, Steve. Good morning. Welcome to becoming church.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Oh, it's such an honor to be with you, Kristen. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So excited to have you here. We're now new friends. We were just talking about how we have a lot of friends in common.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Super fun to make the connections, you know?
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah, no, totally. It is so wild when you've heard of, like, mosaic church or you've heard of, you know, various people, but now you get to, like, actually meet them in person or via a podcast.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yes. It's so funny because I feel like I've legitimately made actual friends. Like, I, you know, even mentioned Meredith, Ann Miller and Ashley island and people because I've reached out to a stranger through Instagram generally, and then through these conversations, you know, networks and relationship happen, and it's just so fun.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: It's like the one redeeming quality of social media.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Exactly. That's exactly it. Well, I want to. We're going to talk a little bit about some, maybe heavier things. I want to talk about the book that you recently put out, but real quick for people that maybe this is their first introduction to you, I'm going to do a quick fire, like, little fast. Let's get to know Steve Carter. So the first one I'm going to ask you, right as we were hitting record, you hit that Starbucks cup. And so I need to know, what is your coffee order?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: So I do a grande cold brew with an added shot, all black. I think they call it like a red eye. So it's pretty much every morning. That's what I do.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Okay. No sweetener, no nothing.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: No sweetener? Nope. Just five calories, even in the winter.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Are you a cold brew guy?
[00:02:52] Speaker B: I am. I literally, like, I feel like by just walking, I could start sweating. Like, my body temperature is, like, always on, so I'm always liking something that's very cold, so.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Okay. All right. That's good. You know yourself?
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: What is a book that you have read recently?
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Oh, I was traction by Gina Wickman. It was a leadership book. It's all basically about why entrepreneurs don't do well and why they need help from an integrator or what we would probably, in the church, call an executive pastor and how visionaries need to actually trust and submit to the integrator. It's a great book.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Wow. And I feel like that's going to go. People need to write that down if they find anything in this conversation that they're like, yeah, I feel like that could be a great supplement to what we're going to talk about today.
All right, what about a tv show that you've binged recently?
[00:03:49] Speaker B: The bear. It's my favorite show by far.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Yes. How far are you into this season?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: I'm episode six of season three.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: Okay. We watched episode three last night, and I'm like, man, they are coming for us in this season.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Are coming for us.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: So good. We actually, my girls are eight and ten, and they obviously don't watch it with us. It's a very intense show, but my husband likes to cook, and so we've now started playing chef at home, like, in the kitchen. And so my girls will be like, macaroni and cheese? Yes, chef. And they're putting little post it, like, up on the vent above the stove.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: Oh, it's so good. I love it.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. All right, well, you are a sports guy, which we won't talk about a lot because I am very much not a sports girl. But there is a big sport coming up. And so what is your favorite Olympic sport?
[00:04:42] Speaker B: Ooh, Olympic sport, I would probably say. I watch the basketball, I watch soccer, but I'm also, like, the running. Like the 100 or 400 or the gymnastics. I feel like those are, like, my ones. I find myself just, like, tuning in or at least following along more closely than others.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I always thought I was a gymnastics person. I still love to watch it, but, yes, there's something about the running, and I'm sure there's a better, more olympian name for that than just running. But, like, the track, is that what it is?
[00:05:17] Speaker B: The sprints, they. I just love seeing them just move that fast. I know, I know.
[00:05:23] Speaker A: It makes no sense. All right, last quick fire question for you. What is your favorite thing about Chicagoland in the summer? Because I know that's where you're from.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
Wrigley field would be just a summer vibe.
Yeah. The lake, the food, the culture, everyone's outside. That's the best part.
[00:05:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Because they can be. I grew up in Michigan and then lived in Chicago. Suburbs myself. A lot of connections there, too. And so I'm like, yeah, the best thing about Chicago in the summer is it's not freezing.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: I didn't know that I knew what a spleen felt like, but in the winter with the wind, I was like, oh, that's what that feels like. That's how cold this thing is, you know? So, yeah, brutal.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome. All right, well, besides your book, which we are going to get into in a little bit here, what is occupying your time right now?
[00:06:17] Speaker B: So I have a 16 year old son, so he's a junior. I feel like I have two more summers with him before we launch him into the, into the world of college and eleven year old daughter. And the summers here, like I was just talking about, it's, it's a little bit slower for us as a family. We know we just love to do walks, games, outdoor fires. So that's, that's been a lot, obviously, the book.
And then I serve at a church and that's kind of always occupying a portion of my, my head space and heart space.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. What do you do with the church that you're at right now?
[00:06:55] Speaker B: So I am serving as like a primary teaching pastor, but our, our lead pastor just stepped out in February and so I've been, like, stepping into that role to really help kind of guide in this, in this day and the season.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: So does that feel like deja vu, Steve?
[00:07:12] Speaker B: Oh, for sure, for sure. I'm like, oh, this? Yes, in a very different way. But there has been a moment where I'm like, how do I keep signing up for these? So, so, but it's, it's, uh, it's a great team, great elder board, and it's actually, this place has been really redemptive, um, in my healing journey as well.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: So that is literally the word that I, that just came to mind was I thought, I really just hope that this redeems the situation, which we're gonna. For people that are like, what are you talking about? We're gonna get there in a second, but I really hope that this becomes a redeeming season for you. That kind of can, you know, take the place of maybe what should have been the first time.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: So I do. I do want to go backwards a little bit. Like I said, for people that are listening, and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I want to go back. Back. First, you served with Rob Bell at his church in Michigan. Is that right?
[00:08:06] Speaker B: I did. So, in 1999, we lived in southern California. My mom got baptized in 97, my senior year of high school. My sophomore year of college, my dad gets baptized and comes out of the baptism waters and feels as if, like, God has whispered to him, hey, sell everything. Move to Grand Rapids to restore a relationship with your folks. And so he asks me that, and he's like, is that how God works? And I'm like, I think so. But we live in California. And you just said Michigan, Michigan. So they've got snow, and. And so you just felt like God was in it. So we moved there, and when we pulled up, I think. I think Mars Hill was maybe four weeks old.
[00:08:54] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: And my best friend in college grew up in Pasadena. And Rob, when he went to Fuller, was interning with my best friends, like, grade, the 10th grade class. And so he just said, hey, you got to find this quirky guy named Rob Bell. I think you'll like him. He started some church. Mars something. And so I showed up to a homeschool building, which is just weird that there's a building that's a homeschool building, but that's a whole other story. But they had this church going on, and a fire marshal, and I couldn't get in. And so the next week, I showed up. Couldn't get in. The third week, I had to sneak in, and I think it was, like, week seven of Mars Hill. And they were in, like, leviticus, chapter six, because they were. They planted the church, walking through, chapter by chapter, the book of Leviticus.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: What a place to start. Rob Bell.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. So I was hooked. And then I went back to college in California to, like, actually, I changed my major from film to preaching in biblical studies. And then Rob had me as his intern, invited me to come live in his basement for a year. And I just woke up, studied with him. It was very, like, that rabbinic way.
And I just followed him around from counseling appointments to just him traveling with him. And I learned so much, and he's been a real gift over the years to me.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: And just to clarify for people who have only heard of Mars Hill in connection with Mark Driscoll. These are different churches. These are not related. Just to put that out there, do you still keep in touch with him? With Rob?
[00:10:29] Speaker B: I do. We probably talk once every month, six weeks. And so he's just.
He has just been this profoundly kind presence.
I can ask him any question, he'll tell me what he honestly thinks. It doesn't mean I always agree with everything, but he always gives me a different way to think about it or a better question to ask, which I greatly appreciate.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I think even maybe a lot of people listening to our podcast may have started with Rob Bell. He may have been the first one to help them go, like, hey, you can think about things differently, or you can reconsider this and, you know, kind of a gateway into what I would say is not heresy, actually, but, you know, finding a better faith and a better understanding of who God is and what a relationship with Jesus actually looks like in our lives.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And Rob was. Rob is such an artiste, and so artists, I would say he's more artist than even pastor, but the artist in him allows him just to chase down the question, and he's so intrigued and believes, like, the God of creation can handle all of the doubts and questions. And there's something I really, really appreciate about that, that I think oftentimes in power structures and systems of church, you don't feel that level of freedom, which I think holds you back from experiencing a more depth and fullness of God. And that's one of the great things that I appreciate from my time of learning to study and walking closely with Rob.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: Wow, that's so great. Well, after you were with Rob Bell, and I'm not sure exactly what the timeline is here, Steve, so you're welcome to speak to that as much as you'd like. But then you were at Willow Creek underneath Reverend Bill Hybels in the Chicagoland area. So would you say you had a similar. Maybe even to start a similar experience there? How long were you there?
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Yep. So just. Just one little thing. So I went back to Marshall at 2002 to 2009, and then we had our first Emerson, and we ended up moving back to California for about four and a half years. And I was at a church called Rock harbor in Costa Rica, and that's when Bill called me while I was at Mars Hill.
Bill would like vacation in the summer in South Haven, and I knew his son in law and daughter, and. And Bill just kind of knew I wanted to be a senior pastor and just would start asking me questions, let me ask him questions. And there was this real kind of leadership guru, coach, pastor. I'd been around an artist. I'd been around, like, Holy Spirit, like worship, response culture at Rock harbor. Very creative. I had never really been in a highly leadership oriented culture. And so there was something that I, I feel like the way I describe it in the Simon cynic language is Marsh Hill was my compelling why? Rock harbor was my compelling how. But Willow was all about the compelling what, what are we going to do to move the church forward? And Bill was a great early on leader to show me how to do that.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: And you. So you really developed a relationship with him before you went to work on his staff, which is a key, a very key point to this story, I think.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Yes. Yep, I did.
[00:13:58] Speaker A: So then you did. You ended up moving to, what was that transition like?
[00:14:03] Speaker B: So 2012, we moved in the fall to join the staff at Willow, and I was going to be a teacher at large, so not a teaching pastor, but I just would be kind of someone who could be used in student ministry to a Wednesday night to hosting and then also be the director of evangelism. I wouldn't. I wasn't going to start on the executive team. I was going to start on the leadership team, but I was going to directly report to Bill, which was pretty great in that sense. So I got that development and the opportunity, and I was leading a really important ministry at willow. And my first one on one with Bill, he says, hey, I'm entering into a succession process.
And I asked if there was anybody internally who wanted my job, and four people raised their hands. And so I have to submit a list to the elders. So I just want you to know I added your name to the list. And in my mind, I'm like, hey, I just moved here. Are you leaving? And he's like, no, no, no. Like it. And he didn't tell me the exact timeframe, but he's like, you know, I'm here for a bit, but you should add your name to the list. And I'm like, I've never even really been to a weekend service. Like, who's the new guy? Who's like, oh, I could do your job. Like, that sounds so arrogant. Yeah, I just got here. And so he just said, hey, I'm not saying you're going to get the job, but you came here to be developed, and if you want to be developed, put your name on the list. And so I did. And it felt like from then on, it became a little bit like Christian Hunger games because the succession process was loosely based on GE's succession process from Jack Welch to Jeff Emmel, where there had four people competing for the role. So it, like, the pressure cooker started right away.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: And these four people were all staff people.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: All staff people, yep.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I can't even imagine what your staff dynamic and staff culture, how that must have changed to, like, this competitive. Did it feel really divisive?
[00:16:08] Speaker B: And the interesting piece about it was five went down to three pretty quickly.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: And then three went down to just me because one took another job as a lead pastor, and then another person transitioned off maybe, like, seven months later. And so I think in some ways, maybe one of them, maybe two of them felt maybe I was more in that driver's seat. I have no idea. But in some ways, I was really spared from it feeling, oh, this is going to get awkward. But there were a couple moments where I was like, how do we do this if I'm going to be leading them, and how do they feel about me?
I will tell you that each of the guys that were in that running were really classy. And, you know, as we processed our relationship, I was the new guy. They had no reason to trust me. But I will say they. They did a great job early on to really have my back.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: So how long were you actually there, Steve, before. Because you did become Bill's successor, if that's how we want to say it. How long had you been there before that happened?
[00:17:23] Speaker B: So in 2017. So 2012 to 2017, that's when it was announced that myself and another person would be Bill's two successors. One person would be kind of like the lead executive pastor, and then I would be the lead teaching pastor. So my role was content congregation and kind of like the voice of Willow, and it was five years of just a pressure cooker. I mean, every time I did announcements, I mean, Kristen, you teach, you get this, like, imagine, like, leading a staff meeting, sitting down and him just leaning over to you and be like, hey, that was really good for succession. Or you got down from doing announcements on a Sunday that wasn't good for succession. And everything was about preparing me for that. And part of my Enneagram three. And the athlete loved. Loved the coaching side of it, and I loved even a little bit of the pressure cooker at times. Some of it was hard, but I really, really believe that Bill had my best interests and I trusted him, and which is what made the events of 2018 more confusing and the cognitive dissonance pretty hard to understand.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll dig into it. What it was like for you personally in a little bit, but for people that are listening, that are like, I vaguely remember hearing something about Willow Creek. I vaguely remember something about Bill Hybels. Can you just give kind of a general overview of what the story is that we're talking about?
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So just to kind of back up a little bit, too, Bill, in 1975, planted a church out of a high school ministry. And it is, I think, seven campuses. It's probably an asset. It's a non denominational church, assets of, like, over a half a billion dollars. I mean, just like, it's remarkable what this guy was able to really vision, cast and lead and do. And so as he was entering in that, those 40 to 43 years of leading, he was in that process of handing it over. And in 2013, 2014, and this is stuff I did not know, allegations of sexual abuse were brought to the elder board, that an affair had happened, a multi year affair. And so what ended up happening was the elders tried to, I think, manage that. And, you know, this is their pastor. Many, many people were baptized by Bill and mentored by him. And so they.
They believed Bill. And over those few years before the story came out, there was a handful of people who kept trying to help the elders understand the weightiness of not just one story, but multiple stories. And so in 2018, and that there.
[00:20:34] Speaker A: Were victims, that it wasn't all like, hey, we're all entering into this willingly, even.
[00:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. So 2017 in October is when I get announced and the other person is the lead exec. And that's the same weekend when Harvey Weinstein MeToo stuff drops. So all of a sudden, like, you think that Harvey Weinstein stuff just opened the door for in every arena we are seeing this. And I had submitted a manuscript called the best of you, and it was all about first and second Timothy. And in many ways, it was going to come out the day that the, around the time I was installed almost as a treatise to Bill, saying, just like Timothy, like, nobody knows who I am. I'm like, following Bill. I'm following a modern day Paul in many ways. And I submit the manuscript, and my editor calls me back and says, hey, have you thought about adding a chapter? And I'm like, about what? When a leader falls and I'm like, what do you mean? Like, that's not what happened with Paul.
And she's like, well, yeah, you should think about it. I'm like, what are you talking about? And she's like, you don't know? And I'm like, know what about a Chicago pastor and me, too. I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And she's like, steve, it's Bill. And that's how I found out about the Chicago Tribune story. Went to my co lead, and she had some knowledge that something was in the works. And I was like, what? And I just. It was like, from that day on, every single day, I was learning new information about how long this has been going, news stories.
While everything that I had dreamed, like, I loved the congregation, I loved the values, I love the. I love Bill. I loved.
It was just like the dream job. House of cards was just starting to fall down, and there was actual victims and trying to make sense of it all without internally imploding.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I can't imagine. I listened to you and Carrie Neuhoff talk about this, and you said to him, you said it wasn't the willow that I knew. And that just really stuck out to me because I think a lot of times people who are disconnected from church scandal or whatever it is, it's very easy. And please hear me, there should be consequences for our actions. There are people that should no longer be in leadership. There are definitely things that should take place when people, especially when there are victims, you know? But I also think that it doesn't just, like, happen. There is a church, and people tend to not see, which is why I'm so grateful for your courage and having this conversation. There is a church that you loved. This is a guy that you loved that you had been mentored by. There were people and relationships and a church community that you loved. How do you think it happened that Willow went from what it was to then all of a sudden feeling like it had just flipped, you know, kind of overnight.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: I think this is just a working theory. I don't know if this is true, but I do think one of the realities of christians, evangelicals primarily, is they don't want to ever feel tricked.
They don't want to feel played. They don't want to actually acknowledge a level of complicity. So. So, like, you, you know, he's your guy. That's your pastor.
He. There's no way he could have done that. I sat under his teaching. I gave money to that I served. There's no way, like, the cognitive dissonance to have to admit that's it. He or she wasn't what I fully experienced them to be.
Most people just don't have the emotional muscle to lean into that right away. They'll get there over time. But, like, as you're talking about in real time, you then all of a sudden have all this thought, but all the good we did, right? Of course, no place is perfect, 85% good.
And it's like all of a sudden they find themselves protecting and preserving the ability abuser or the institution because they don't want to have to admit that it wasn't everything that they had hoped and thought it to be, that there was some real darkness and shadow sides and there was actual victims. And. And it's just, it's. It's really, really tricky, I think, for people, staff, volunteers, congregants, to be able to lean in. It's usually the people who have experienced some sense of abuse themselves and done their work to be able to go, yeah, he did it. I believe the women, it's just a trickier thing to be able to push through that.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm at risk of getting canceled myself here, asking you this question, saying this next statement, Steve. But I believe that two things can be true at once. I believe that we can hold two things at the same time. And so while I very, very much want to believe victims, protect the victims, find a healing for them, tell them clearly, I am so sorry that happened. This should have never been your experience, especially within the walls of a church where you thought that it was your safest place. Acknowledging that that is very much true.
At the same time, do you think that we can still look back to the good that did happen at Willow Creek while Bill was there? The good that bill did do the baptisms, all of the mentoring, does it negate all of the good, or can we still.
Can we still take away good things from what he did in that season? Does that make sense?
[00:26:43] Speaker B: 100%. And I think probably there's various differing answers depending on who you ask. I'll tell you this, Kristen. There's probably not a weekend that goes by where I'm sitting in a service, and I will have a moment where I'll be like, Bill would have hated that transition, or Bill would have loved that moment. And there's. There's two realities that come over me. One, sadness. Sadness in the sense of he was a spiritual mentor, he was a coach. I learned so much from him about leadership, about challenge, about so much. So there's a sadness that comes over, and there's also this moment of joy, of, I did get that experience to learn from someone who, like all of us, has some real, real gifts and has some real, real shadow sides. And I think the. I try to hold both.
It's hard because there are some people who are very either or.
And, you know, and I think it's a little tricky, depending on how someone responds by asking for forgiveness or repenting. I think that's what makes this story with Willow a little bit tricky. Is it just, it, like, hasn't really happened. We haven't heard from Bill, so that makes it a little bit tricky. But I, for me personally, I can hold both and try to feel the full weight of the sadness and the. Yeah, I did learn that from him. I mean, he made me a wildly better communicator, and I'm grateful for that.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: That's real. Steve, I appreciate your, your honesty and your vulnerability in that.
Before I finish my conversation with Steve, I want to very clearly say if you're listening or you're watching on YouTube and you have been a victim of church abuse, I want to let you know I am so sorry that happened. Sexual abuse and assault should not happen anywhere to anyone, but especially within the confines of the church and especially with someone that you thought you could trust, someone that you thought represented God in your life. And Steve is going to get into it more in our conversation, but I hope that you will find a way to be able to disconnect those broken people from who God actually is. I'm going to link up a few resources below in the show notes in case you need help healing and moving forward.
I think a lot of people, too, right now are saying, like, I'm hearing on my, my feed, I follow all kinds of church people. I just, like, want to have my, my finger on people I agree with, don't agree with. I always want to know, like, what's happening, you know, and I'm seeing a lot of people saying, you know, God is cleaning house right now with the refining fire. I mean, even at the time of, we're recording this, just this week, there was news of yet another sexual assault case in a megachurch from the pastor. And so as a pastor yourself, what are your thoughts on the big c church right now? And I guess at the same time, like, do you think there is any hope to bring back people who look at these continuous stories and just go, like, forget it. Like, I'm done, I'm out?
[00:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I think that there's a lot of stuff that we have to really reckon with. I think that's true. Yeah. I'll tell you this one story. In 2017, I had the chance to go to the Vatican and meet the pope. And so it was a cool little moment. But the day before we got to have dinner with his social media director, which is just so weird to be Pope Francis as a social media guy, but this guy ends up being a catholic historian. And so this is before I know stuff about Bill at all. We're having dinner. There's a bunch of us there. And he asked, hey, do you have any questions about Catholicism? And I'm looking around, nobody asks a question. And I'm dumb enough to be like, I got one, sure, there. And I was like, there's been some really, really good popes. Like, people have celebrated their theology. There's been some, like, bad popes. Like, they bought the role. They had kids. There was, like, sexual abuse.
How do you, as a catholic historian, tell this story and not just try to move on or not talk about the Pope Borgias of the world? And he said, great question. He said, I will tell you that we have had a number of bad popes. And every time we had a bad pope and we drifted from our call as the Catholic Church, a new order was created. So the Jesuit order came out of the problems that Pope Borgia brought forth, and it reckoned with power and it reckoned with money. And it was this new imagination to walk in the steps of Jesus, and this new order was created. And I just thought that was really, really beautiful. I think right now, if we could put that into the christian church reality, I think we are in an invitation for a new order of character and formation. And I think that we love charisma. We love people who are good at their craft.
But there is a longing, more than I can ever imagine, that I don't really care how great someone is in their gift. I want to know our are they a good dad or mom? Are they a good leader? Are they a good person? Are they who they say they are? Is their character leading the way? And I think that is something that young and old are really longing for. And I think it's a really good invitation for the next batch of leaders to lead the church forward. And hopefully with healthy character, it'll be slower, it'll be healthier, it'll grow in more sustainability, and it will also welcome people back, because it's a place that is safe and consistent and worthy of trust.
[00:33:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful. I mean, I, as a pastor, too, I want to criticize, you know, the church and the big c church and the things that need to be fixed or need to be criticized. But it's all in the hope that it can be better, that we can actually get back to being the church that Jesus called us to be. So, again, it's that tension of both. We have to call out what needs to be changed while not losing hope and getting stuck in the cynicism and the bitterness of what has happened so that we can stay in it. We can stay. We can stick in it long enough for that change to happen.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: 100%. Couldn't agree more.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Well, you wrote a book, Steve, called Grieve, breathe, receive, where you unpack a little bit more of your story, your time at Willow. But in chapter one, I think the very first question to ask totally summarizes, at least for me, the whole book. It says, what do you do when life does what it does? And I was like, hallelujah. We finally got the answer, so let's go. Because it feels like life is always doing something.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Yes.
It's wild, because I think oftentimes we have this path or this dream or this expectation for how life will go, and then the diagnosis comes or the financial struggles hit, or you find out your partner's been having an affair or you, your dream job, you know, falls apart, you know, like, your parent dies or a friend dies. Like, it just. And all of a sudden, you're like, what do I do now? And I think what I learned is, as a three, I didn't know how to grieve. I knew how to achieve and how I handled my sadness was just give me a new goal and give me another hill to climb. I didn't make time to sit in the sadness. And I think when we do that, those moments of grief, almost like Jenga blocks, stack and become grievances that we end up carrying. And then one day, one new kind of grief comes in, the whole structure can't. And you just feel like the whole thing collapses and you're left trying to pick up all these pieces and you don't know how to do it. And that's how I felt. And so, yeah, that's kind of the heartbeat of the book.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Yeah. How is this different than. And we've. I've interviewed other authors with other books on grief, and one of the things that I think is unique about grief is that no one grieves. Well, like, there's no right way to do it. And so I do appreciate, you know, the different approaches to it. But how is grieve breathe received different than maybe some other books on grief that people have read before?
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Yep. I would say there's so many great books on grief, and I've, like, come to find out, and.
But I I would say, for me, I'm constantly looking for, like, a framework, a biblical framework that usually helps my life work and make sense. And I remember I had these words, grieve, breathe, receive. I felt like the Lord had given to them, to me. And I haven't had a bunch of moments like that. But it was the day after I resigned, because the stories, I didn't even fill this out, but the stories had come out in March of 2018 of all of the abuse, sexual abuse, abuse of power from Bill Hybels. And by August 5, a news story dropped in the New York Times, and I resigned. Basically, I was like, I have watching the church. The way that they're handling it is not the right way. So that next morning, I felt like I had those words, grieve, breathe, receive. And I knew that I had to learn to grieve. What is grieve? How key people had let me down.
Grieve what I thought it was going to be. Breathe in new mercies, exhale all the bitterness, and receive what I need to learn and own and become because of all this. I had that as a map. And I would say that to your point, this is a book that's more narrative with a framework of holy Weekend like Friday being grieved, silent Saturday being breathe, and Easter Sunday being receive. That I think, for me, I'm hoping that through my vulnerability, people can find themselves and go, oh, this is where I'm at in a Friday, or this is where I need to, like, reckon with on a Saturday. Or here's how I could be open to my own personal Sunday. And hopefully that isn't like a, you know, seven steps to grieve quicker. It's not that kind of book. It is a come on a journey with me and let's learn how to honor what comes up when change shows up.
[00:38:03] Speaker A: Before we get to the Holy Week structure, I do want to talk about that. I don't want to skip over. You kind of touched on real quick your resignation from Willow Creek. And you do, in chapter three, explain, you know, more of your story there. And I have to tell you, Steve, I physically ached in my body reading that chapter because I just felt for you and I felt for your staff and the people there. And, you know, kind of, like I said earlier, I think people outside looking in forget like, there is relationship and there is so much more, so many more people that are hurt or affected than just the names that are, you know, in the article or talked about.
And so I just. I'm sorry for you and your staff and all of the people like, I can only imagine how lonely you felt and scared you felt and maybe used or tricked the two felt.
And so I do just want to acknowledge, like I said, the other staff people, the families that stayed, the people who were there, maybe almost even anonymously, but still going through the trauma and the pain and, but as you're processing all of this, as you're finding, you know, hearing more stories and you had talked about in the book, you know, really trying to turn things around and trying to bring maybe not resolution, but, like, do the right thing moving forward, and you just kind of came to the conclusion that you, that you couldn't. What was it that led to the resignation of finally going, I can't stay and make this better anymore at this point. And so I have to go. What was that like?
[00:39:44] Speaker B: Yep. So in early July, I had dropped late June, early July of that 2018, I had written a blog post that said, I believe the women. And so that was the first, like, oh, wow, we have someone inside the camp who is breaking from the preservation of the institution and organization. And that kind of had me at odds with some people. I brought that to the elders. I brought that to the co lead. The campus pastors knew I was going to do it. I just felt we are showing a posture of pride and power. And again, the willow that I knew did the harder right. And I just was saying, let's tell on ourselves. Let's. Let's do this the right way. And when that kind of ruffled some feathers internally, my decision, and you could say, yeah, yeah. And so I, I started to think through, and part of it was I started to feel like a victim. And I'm not, I'm not someone who chooses victim mentality often, but I was like, I didn't sign up for this. And I remember in early July going, well, then what would I sign up for? And in the most, like Jerry Maguire, I wrote this, like, manifesto of, here is six realities I need to see for me to stay. And basically the six were, here's what we did. So we showed pride. Our practice needs to be humility, and this is how we're going to do it. And I went through six of them, and I brought that, those to the elders and also brought it to each of the women. And the women, like, said, if you do this, we'll show up to the table. And so I brought that thinking, hey, I got, and again, as a three, I'm trying to find the ultimate win, a win that can help the women, the congregation, the staff, the elders, like, we can move this thing forward and actually be a light to how you handle abuse. And I had gone rogue because in the midst of all this, knowing that the elders and people had known for five plus years, and I didn't know who I could trust. And so I'm not saying I did it the right way. I wish I would have had a couple people that I brought in to, but I think from internally, there were some elders that just didn't agree with my approach. And really, I mean, one elder said, you need to go to leadership school. He totally shames me. Like, you don't know what you're doing. And I'm like, I do know what I'm doing. I'm doing the harder, right? And you have to do this. You have to. And so then they basically told me, we're not going to do it. And I just said, okay, I can't stay. And about ten days later is when that August 5 New York Times article dropped. And during that time, I had just realized, oh, I. There's a lot of people who. Who don't believe this has happened because they trust me, and. And we're not down much in attendance, and we're not down much in giving. So it hadn't hurt yet enough to actually call out what had happened. And when I realized, oh, they're. They're gonna just try to have me be the face and not let me kind of lead us to a place of repentance and truth telling and grace, that's when I decided to resign. And that's when I think people began to realize, oh, wow, this is really true.
And to your point, I really appreciate you saying this, Kristen. Like, I also.
I feel bad for the staff. I feel bad for the kids. I feel bad for the congregation. The way that I say it often is, a few people did evil, and a lot of good people got played, and a lot more people got left holding the bag. And I think that, at the end of the day, my version of leadership is, if you're like a junior high pastor at Willow, at that time, you didn't need to resign. Like, you're. Your role wasn't in the hierarchy of power of the institution to massively make significant change.
But when the top person doesn't admit and own, and then the board doesn't admit and own, the next person doesn't admit and own, well, then it just. It keeps falling to look for who. The next person to go, who's going to tell the truth. And I. It's hard because the reality is the collateral damage of those truth tellers.
We saw it with the women, and we see it with the women today in so many ways, or people who have been. Men who have experienced abuse and on staff or whatever.
It's not fun.
It's not like. It's. It's not like you get celebrated.
You get.
[00:45:23] Speaker A: For doing the right thing, even. Right.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: Yeah. You. It's. It's not that you can crushed relationally from people that you absolutely love and nobody fully understands because they don't know what it's like walking in your shoes, or they don't know fully what you know. And it's just.
I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. I just wouldn't.
[00:45:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: It's just is. Yeah. So, yeah, sorry, that's like an all over the place, but that's kind of the real of it. So.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: No, I appreciate it. And I commend you, Steve, for what I hear you say, in the simplest way, is that you chose God's people over the institution of a thriving, you know, church based on attendance and finances. And if that's not the heart of Jesus, like, I don't know what is. So hopefully, somehow not my validation. I'm sure God has already given that to you in his own way. But for people, real quick, who don't understand, we are not a denominationally led church. So for people. You keep mentioning the elders and the boards, and I know it's a very common thing.
What would have happened, do you think, if you hadn't resigned? Like, would they have had the power to effectively kick you out?
[00:46:41] Speaker B: Yeah. So in. If you think about, like a denomination, like a presbytery, you know, they'll have local kind of deacons or elders. But when something really, really tricky comes up, the governing presbytery of that region comes in and takes over. Like, this isn't. This isn't for lay leaders. You know, this isn't for these people. We know how to do this. In the non denominational world, those local leaders are the highest leaders. And so what's tricky is you have local business leaders, a lawyer, real estate agent, a doctor, and now they're thrust with having to lead a church through a massive scandal. All the while they are a local business owner or leader, nonprofit leader, that they don't want to be thrown under the bus for doing this the wrong way.
What's tricky is there is a very, very human piece to it, but these elders had all of the power in that non denominational reality to do whatever they wanted to give the former senior pastor a golden parachute to create this and that they could orchestrate in the bylaw, because of the bylaws, their best way to move forward. And that's, I think, one of those pieces on the autopsy, looking back where they had to really look through and go, okay, can we, where were there flaws in the governance policies that really allowed for this kind of abuse or preservation to really continue?
[00:48:34] Speaker A: I'm not saying there's no good to these kinds of systems and governance, but I, all I was thinking is, like, you can get to almost like a mob mentality where it's just easier to go along with everybody else and to not be the one to ruffle feathers, because it's just like, hey, as a majority, we have to put forth this.
That's a conversation for a whole nother day. Steve, church governance.
But I do want. I said we would get back to grieve, breathe, receive, and so talk to me about how you aligned this to, you know, the holy weekend or basically good Friday through Easter, how you kind of see grief and breathing and receiving aligned with these three days.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So after, after we resigned a few months later, we actually moved to the desert. And my wife was from Phoenix, and. And she just, we just needed to get away, and so we moved there. And I just started hiking a ton, reading the desert, mothers and fathers. And one day, one morning I was hiking and I got to the top of this beautiful area and vista, and I started to think, wow, Jesus was perfect. He spoke to power. He healed people. He taught people. He showed people how to have access to the father.
And he didn't get what he deserved of anyone on the planet. It. He did not get what he deserved.
And then I started to think, well, silent Saturday, like, those disciples didn't think Sunday was coming. Like, they were like, what do I do now?
What happens now? Like, how do I. Like, you could just feel all of this sense of, I just got to get through this.
And then the surprise of Sunday, it's where nobody saw it coming. And, you know, John 20, Jesus returns post resurrection, shows up. And I love that he, like, shows up and he has, like, scars and holes in his hands because it's. It's not like that Friday didn't happen. It happened. But I started to realize, like, Friday is when you're. You are in grief. Saturday is when you think you can get through the grief. And then Sunday is when you are going to carry and be with this grief. You're just going to carry it differently because you've experienced the hope and the goodness of what Sunday offers. And so I started to see that holy weekend. And not saying that if you went through something difficult, it's all going to be shored up in three days as brand new, the band says, like, jesus Christ, what did you do those three days? You were dead. Because this problem is going to last more than the weekend, which I love.
But I think that the understanding of, for any of you who are grieving right now to simply ask yourself, hey, what day of the week am I in? Am I. Oh, I'm in.
No, I feel like I'm in silence. Saturday. I just feel like, man, there's something. And sometimes in the same day, you will just waffle between all three. But the fullness of what it means to be human is for us to be able to mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those who rejoice to experience the fullness of Friday, yet holding out for hope of Sunday. And for some of us, we're brightsiders, meaning like, we love our Sunday, but we don't know how to name our Friday and Saturday. And some of us are really good at naming the Friday or struggling in the Saturday without holding on to hope that redemption or restoration or healing or breakthrough can happen. And I just am trying to offer a framework that says which day of the week? And are you? And can you hold all three in your heart, mind, body and soul? And here's maybe a way through my life journey, how to think about it.
[00:52:28] Speaker A: And you give a lot of practicals and self reflection questions, too, that help. I think the biggest thing is naming what day we're in and then choosing to acknowledge and sit there and go, oh, I am in the Friday. And so now I have to respond as though I'm in the Friday.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: You know, for pastors or leaders that are listening, and when I say leader, I'm talking it could be a business leader, it could be a mom, you know, leading her family, her kids. Leader is a broad term here, but I think for a lot of people that are listening, they are likely carrying either a secret grief or secret burden while also trying to help other people navigate through any variety of issues, whether it's political turmoil, the world.
What encouragement do you have for those people who are trying to help others navigate forward while also carrying their own? Maybe help others through a Sunday while they're still stuck in their own Friday?
[00:53:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I think for many of us, we're really good at avoiding the Friday and Saturday. And, and I almost had a Jedi mind trick myself.
You know, I think someone asked me once, how do you know you're a good parent? You're a good parent when your kids go to counseling for different reasons, and you go because you haven't passed down the same stuff. Right, but you're gonna pass something down. But I didn't grow up in a house that you could honor the grief and the sadness. Yeah, I felt like I was shamed if I cried, like. And so I didn't want to teach my kids. When something is hard, lock it up. Don't feel.
That's not what I want to pass down. I want to be able to help my son and my daughter know how to do that. And my wife has that same dream and desire, but it's hard when you don't know how to do it. And so I think for any of you who just go, man, I I struggle. I get it. Because you don't want. You're afraid that this sadness might take you out of control.
But if you can create space in your calendar just to say, hey, I'm gonna just sit with this. It's almost like a wound. When you kind of fall and scrape your knee, you're gonna add a little peroxide, you're gonna put a band aid over it, and then you're gonna come back to it a couple days later, clean it out again, put a new band aid on it. I think if you can create that mindset of, I'm gonna, like, honor the loss of my father, and I'm gonna just spend a few moments, like, thinking about that, clean it out, put the band aid on, and then remind myself, I'm gonna come back to this next Monday morning, and then I'm gonna. I'm gonna clean it out, spend some time with it. I'm gonna come back to it the next Monday morning if you can just. I'm not trying to solve it, but just to take steps to move forward. I think it's going to be a healthy piece. I will also say, the better work that you do to sit with your grief, the more of an empath or empathy you will be able to give and the more ability to hold space for another, you will have it just. It will be. You'll be weightier and wildly more safe. And so instead of just being able to talk about empathy, you will be able to embody empathy. Empathy, because you've done your work and you've experienced God meeting you in your Friday and your Saturday and showing you a little of what Sunday can look like.
[00:55:59] Speaker A: Yeah, and that empathy, I think, grows into compassion, and it can change our worldview even. I mean, truly, like, if we can become self aware enough to learn about ourselves and the way we think and react, apply that then to other people, even more than empathy and compassion, it helps us to have conversations with people that we don't agree with or, you know, whose experiences we cannot understand, even, you know, somebody trying to put themselves in, maybe not Bill's situation, but maybe, like, if we're going to go full extreme, like, to try to understand, how did someone get here and do these things? And again, not to say that it's okay not to gloss it over, but just to, I mean, it's such a challenging thing to do, right? But it only leads to more compassion. Self awareness helps us to see people the way Jesus sees them.
[00:56:52] Speaker B: Yes, I think. I think it's really beautiful. I think it's really, really hard. But I think that, you know, just when you start to recognize the power of shame or the power of trauma, the power of people's stories that they've had to walk through and endure, it doesn't excuse anyone's behavior, but it also helps understand, oh, this is why x, y, or z was possible for them or an escape for them. And again, that just allows me to sit with that. And the invitation is to go, okay, what is my shadow side?
And how do I make sure that I look into that and lean into that, do the work that needs to be done on that so that my character leads the way, but then also to not shame those parts of me?
And so it's. You're so right. That compassion, that empathy, that perspective shift.
Yeah, it does. It changes your global worldview, too.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really gracious.
Last question for you, Steve, because the podcast is called becoming church. What can the people listening do to become the church to people around them, maybe in particular toward people who have been hurt within the church or have left the church because of scandal or abuse?
[00:58:16] Speaker B: That's a great question.
The first story that comes to my mind is, I was in Jerusalem and I saw a rabbi. And so I walked up to the rabbi and just started to ask him questions. And I said, hey, in the hebrew scriptures, or what we know is the Old Testament, there's these three primary metaphors.
Egypt, which was a place of slavery and oppression, which feels like Friday. The desert, which feels like Saturday, and the promised land, which in many ways feels like Sunday. And I said, how much time do you think you spend in each of those places? And the rabbi said, you Americans are so funny. You think everything is up and to the right. That's not us. We think ten to 15% of your life is in the promised land. Ten to 15% of your life is in Egypt, and the remaining 70% to 80% of your life is wandering in the desert.
[00:59:07] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:59:08] Speaker B: I think for many people right now who are wandering through the desert, I think that we haven't done a great job of teaching our people how to wander. Well, how to wander again, how to not lose hope.
And really, what this is, is just our relationship with liminality, that liminal space. And I think for anybody who's in that place, it's one thing to leave Egypt or an oppressive system. It's another thing for that oppressive system to leave you. And that's the jewish nation was wandering because God was trying to show them, I'm not like, Pharaoh. You can trust me. And so I just think as you wander in the desert and becoming a church that knows how to wander through the wilderness of this season and to wander through it, well, I think you, again, you'll be able to hold space, you'll be compassionate while holding out hope for that land of promise, that Sunday experience, for what you can receive, while also being able to own and honor your own personal Egypt or Friday experience. So be comfortable with the desert, the deserted place, the forsaken place, because truly God is. Is there, too.
[01:00:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe not to fear it so much that we can't enter in and walk with other people.
[01:00:32] Speaker B: Amen.
[01:00:33] Speaker A: Who are wandering themselves. I think that's a. That's a common misconception. It's like, oh, if I walk with these people who are wandering, then all of a sudden I will be wandering, too. And I'm not sure that it actually works that way.
[01:00:44] Speaker B: So true. So true.
[01:00:46] Speaker A: Steve, thank you so much for your time. This has really been helpful. This has really been great. We will link up, grieve, breathe, receive. Where else can people find you?
[01:00:55] Speaker B: Simplestplaces, stevecarter.org or on most social media. It's Evie.
[01:01:03] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been really great.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: Thank you, Kristen.
[01:01:12] Speaker A: More than anything, I hope that this conversation has really helped you to see that life is complicated and people are complex, and we never truly know the full details of someone else's story. My prayer for you today is that you would be able to sit with whatever tension you're facing, whether that's hurt and hope or you are in the tension of wandering between your own Friday and Sunday. If you have thoughts on anything that was said in today's episode. I would love to hear from you at Becomingchurch TV. Thanks for listening. And until next time, keep becoming the church to people around you.
