Renee Dollenmayer: Disability in the Church

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young. One of the values of this podcast is diversity, because I want us to learn from people with different cultures, different faiths, different backgrounds, and different lifestyles so we can better understand people whose lived experiences are different from ours. It also shows us what their unique perspective of Jesus is. So my guest today is Renee Dolanmayer, who is going to help us see the beauty in disability. Renee goes through the world in a power wheelchair, coaching people through suffering and helping us as the church lean in to embrace the disabled community better. Renee, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I am literally so excited to be here. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Good. I'm really excited to have you also, but I have a feeling that this is a new introduction for some of our listeners. So why don't you give us a little backstory of who you are and kind of what you do? [00:01:17] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Renee D'Aldemare, and I am really passionate about giving the gospel to people with disabilities. And so I was born, like, three months premature, and so I actually have a disability myself. I have spastic quadriplegic cerebral palsy. So I use a power wheelchair to get around. And so really, my heart just longs for the disabled to meet Jesus. And so that's in a small sentence, what I get to do every day. I'm a coach, a speaker, and I also am the founder of Even if ministries, which we are passionate about. Yeah, just reaching the unreached. Because people with disabilities are the most unreached people group. And so our heart is that people with disabilities would come to know God's love for them and his purpose for their lives. And so, yeah, that's a little bit about me and just my heart for people. [00:02:22] Speaker B: Why do you think it is that people with disabilities are unreached? [00:02:29] Speaker A: That is such a great question. I think it has many factors, but I think, honestly, there's a lot of barriers in the physical church for people with disabilities to be reached. Then I think the church is often unaware that there even are as many people with disabilities as there are. And so they just assume, oh, I'm sure they're at other churches, or we don't need to be accessible because other churches are accessible. And that's just, like, not true. So I think a lot of it has to do with the church, and then a lot of it also has to do with just wrong Theology, honestly, like, when you're told as someone with a disability that you are a curse or that your disability is a result of personal sin, obviously someone is not going to be like, after hearing that, oh, yay, let me, like, go to church and, like, be involved in Christianity. And it's interesting because I work not only in the ministry setting when it comes to disability, but I also work in the secular setting of disability. And I often hear in the secular setting. Well, Renee, the reason I'm not pursuing Jesus or I'm not connected into a church is because this happened when I was little or, like, I had this experience. And what I really say to that is, that's not who Jesus is. The church is full of broken people. And so sometimes we misrepresent Jesus. And I honestly think that's what's happening. [00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah, so. So there's kind of two different, like, the physical, you know, area of a church. Do you think there's something that's, like, really common that most churches either do that gets in the way or don't do? That would really, like, lead to accommodations? That's an easy solution. [00:04:35] Speaker A: Well, I have lots of answers to that. [00:04:37] Speaker B: Bring them all. [00:04:39] Speaker A: But one thing that comes to my mind right away is a lot of churches do not have a ramp to, like, their stage or their platform. Okay. That automatically is giving the message that someone with a disability is not meant to be up there preaching the word or the gospel. That puts that message automatically in the door. And then another just practical, like, physical thing is, like, there are churches to this day in 2025 that do not have a ramp to get inside their building. And that is absolutely ridiculous. Like, it's literally 2025, and we don't even. We just have stairs. And so that automatically states that, like, you are not welcome here. Or, for example, people with autism or any type of intellectual disability. Like, if you don't have a sensory room in your church and you just have flashing lights everywhere, like, that does not show that you care for the disabled. So it's like all the little things that kind of add up. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Do you see it as kind of like a. You need to have these spaces prepared before the people show up, as opposed to the opposite of, like, oh, now that we've got a different kind of people coming in, now we need to figure out a solution for them. [00:05:59] Speaker A: I see it a little bit of both ways, because I think you have to give the church grace in the sense of if you don't have those people showing up, like, you may not be Aware. But I think every church should have those basic things, like a ramp to have access to your door. But maybe those more like the sensory room and the things we were talking about. I do think it takes a voice and somebody standing up and being like, hey, this is needed in the church. Because honestly, I don't always think the church is trying to be like, evil and like. [00:06:36] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:37] Speaker A: But I do think they're just unaware. And I mean, I don't blame them at times because honestly, if I didn't have disability, I probably wouldn't think of all these little things. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Sure. [00:06:49] Speaker A: And so I think having a heart of compassion while also being bold and being like, this is not okay. Like, I just think of even a lot of churches, like a week ago had Night to Shine, which, like, is an event for people with disabilities. So. Great. But the problem is churches do that event one day a year. What happens the other 364 days of the year? You can say, oh, we checked the box by 10. Taking care of the disabled because we had a Night to Shine event that is one night of the year. Church is supposed to be a community where you're doing life on life with people, not just like an event that you go to. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:36] Speaker A: I think we've kind of missed the mark in that area a little bit. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Preach, Renee. I love that. I mean, it's the same idea of like, oh, it's February, Black History Month, so we're going to go ahead and make sure we have a black person doing announcements or worship, but like, literally not the other 11 months of the year. [00:07:55] Speaker A: It's wild. [00:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah. That's not the way we do it. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Well, you also mentioned a wrong theology and it got me thinking. There's so many, I think, toxic versions of theology where whether it's illness, disability, mental health. Oh my gosh. Anything that can happen to a person or within a person that. Yes. Is then pointed to as like, oh, your sin did this, or this is a punishment. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:25] Speaker B: Have you had well meaning? We'll give people the benefit of the doubt. But have you had like, well meaning people come and say, like, oh, let me pray for your healing all the time. Oh my gosh. And what is that? What, what is that? Like, what do you say? [00:08:41] Speaker A: I think a couple years ago I would have said something completely different than I say now. I think a couple years ago I it very offensive and I found myself just shutting down completely and being like, why? And now I try my best to approach it with a place of compassion of like, they just don't know, but then also being very upfront and using scripture to be like, this is how God has used my disability for his glory. And the reality is, Kristen, I preached on this just this week. Everything in this world is fallen. So, like, the reason we have broken relationships is because of sin. The reason we have, like, mental health struggles is because this world does not operate the way it was supposed to. And so I think we live in this culture that. And especially in Christian culture where we just want to fix everything. And so I'll often approach this conversation of like, hey, thank you so much for, like, stating what you're stating. But, like, I don't need to be physically fixed to be used by God. God is doing a mighty work in and through me. And I'll often. My friend and mentor, Catherine Wolf, kind of does a great job of explaining this, but she says, like, pray for my soul, pray for my anxiety, pray for my ministry. And at times you'll either get a good response or you'll get an even more pushback response of like, well, you just don't have enough faith. Like, it would be so cool. Like, one time I was at a Brandon Lake concert and this lady was like, wouldn't it just be so cool if you got up in front of everybody and started walking? And I was like, you're missing the point. Like, you are missing. There is a soul right here. And the whole time she was just staring at my legs. And I just, I think it's wild because all of us, the scripture very much makes it clear that our physical bodies are wasting away. And until we get to heaven, they will continue to waste away. We're all going to age. Everybody is probably going to become disabled in some form. And at some point in their life, we never, like, our bodies are never going to stay the way they were when we were like, you know, 20 or whatever. Like, we're all going to face aches and pains and disability to some level. And we are so obsessed. We idolize our bodies so much that we are so obsessed with fixing, with making it feel all better. And it's like, I get the intent, but also, don't you realize that this earth was not meant to be our home? Nothing in this earth is meant to last forever. And I think that's just really what I want to get to the heart to is like, this earth is not meant to be our home. And so whether you have a physical disability or maybe you're just really struggling in ministry, or you're feeling, you're feeling weary when it comes to church leadership. Like, this world, our ministries here on this earth are not our God. Like, they're not. And so they're not going to be perfect. They're going to be really messy at times. We're going to be like, dang, this is really hard because this world is not how it was intended to be. Yeah. Wow. And so I think, yeah, the Lord has just been teaching me a lot about that. [00:12:20] Speaker B: That's, that's so great. It's such a fantastic point about people idolizing our bodies. Right. Whether it's our own bodies or faces or, you know, whatever it is that in the physical. And then we do. We project that onto other people. So it's like, well, if I'm insecure about my body, then, then surely you must feel insecure about your body. And we project. And yet, like the person at the Brandon Lake concert who wanted to, you know, see you get up and walk. Like, I want to say, hey, wouldn't it be cool to see a miracle? But also miracles are so much more than that. [00:13:01] Speaker A: Like, if. [00:13:02] Speaker B: I wonder if she had seen you as a person first. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:07] Speaker B: If she would be able to see the miracle that God is already doing in your life that actually has nothing to do with your legs. [00:13:13] Speaker A: Yeah. No. Come on, preach it. People don't understand that the reason I am a Christian today and I'm following Jesus today is because of my disability and suffering. And I know God is sovereign, but like my family, most of my family is, are not Christians. And so like, it was literally disability and suffering that led me to the cross. And I just wonder. I explained that to this lady. But literally I would so much rather be in a wheelchair knowing Jesus than not be in a wheelchair and have all these physical capabilities but not know him. [00:13:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:58] Speaker A: Like, you are missing out on the greatest thing in your life, whether you're able bodied or not. Like you, Jesus is the answer. Like, he is it, you know? [00:14:09] Speaker B: Tell me that story, Renee. How did you find, how did, how did being in a wheelchair lead you? [00:14:15] Speaker A: Yeah, so I grew up in the Catholic church. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Basically, it was pretty much just. We go to church every week. That's just what you do. But I always remember, like in the Catholic church, they had like the anointing of the sick and different things like that. And I just always remember praying, like in the pews as a little kid, like, God, if you're good, you'll make me walk or you'll make, you'll make things better. Because that's how like I was viewed as like, A sick person. [00:14:45] Speaker B: That's what you were taught. [00:14:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I just assumed that, like, oh, something's wrong with me, or, like, I. Yeah, if I'm fixed, then, like, okay, God is going to be glorified. And so I think I really wrestled with identity from a very young age of, like, okay, what does this mean? And so then really struggled in, like, middle school and going into high school with, like, who am I? What am I on this earth for? And then my junior year of high school. I just think it's funny now looking back, because it's like Jacob in the Bible when his hip is dislocated and he's wrestling with God. That's literally what happened. So my right hip became dislocated, and I was up at times for, like, 72 hours at night and just in so much pain. And I just remember saying, like, I just want my life to end, God. Like, there's no. There's no purpose in this. And if there is purpose, like, I need you to show me. And it was in that pain and suffering when the Lord was like, renee, I'm near. I'm right here. My presence is tangible. It is real. And so, really, through that season of depression and deep, deep suffering, the Lord met me, like, face to face. And I encountered him in a way that, like, I cannot even describe to you. And it's kind of wild as we're filming this podcast, because I'm going through the same thing now on the other side of my body and just again, going through this deep suffering. And the Lord again and again in his kindness and his grace and his mercy, continues to meet me in it. And I think we don't talk about suffering enough. We don't talk about pain enough. And, man, if we did. If we did as the church, if we stood up and we said, let's have these hard conversations, let's meet each other, and then I think it's going to change the world and it's going to change the kingdom of God forever, because I've encountered a Jesus through my suffering that is so near to the brokenhearted, and he is so kind to meet us in that. And so, yeah, it really was, like, in the pit where I was just brought to his feet. [00:17:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:02] Speaker A: And life is only found in Jesus and Jesus alone, like you can. I've tried other areas to find life, but it just will never be found in anything else. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That story. I think there are probably a lot of people listening who can relate to being in a dark place or a hard place and God showing up for them there. And I hope that if people are listening and they're in that place right now that you know, I know you and I would both pray and hope that they would be able to have their eyes open to seeing God where they don't expect to find him, so that they can have that same story. A little behind the scenes information for you here is that I'm getting ready to send my next round of invitations for upcoming episodes on this show. As a listener of Becoming Church, you're part of that invitation. If there's someone you follow online, a leader you look up to, an author you love to read, or even an area of diversity that you want to see represented more here, I would love for you to let me know. You can tag me in a comment on their feed or tag them in one of the Becoming Church posts on my feed or send me a message through BecomingChurch TV. This show is for you. So let me know who you love and let's bring your favorite voices in. So you have another surgery coming up, is that right? So you basically the same thing, but on the other side of your body? [00:18:31] Speaker A: Yes, I'm getting a total hip replacement because now I'm an adult. So. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Okay. [00:18:37] Speaker A: So, yeah, I have a surgery at the very end of February. And so it's crazy that, like, I feel like the Lord has given me disability and suffering to, like, humble me constantly, like in ministry, in my calling. Because to be honest, like, if I didn't face these limitations, I think I would be way more prideful than I already am at times. Like, we all struggle with pride. And so I think in his kindness, the Lord is like, okay, Renee, you need a little bit of humbling. But I think, as you were just saying, like, I think this is going to speak to a listener who's struggling. I want to be very clear that, like, although I, like, am preaching right now and telling you truth, like, I am very much in a hard season as well right now. And I don't want to sugarcoat it. Like, it is hard. It is really gruesome. It is. You really have to go to the Father and be like, okay, Lord. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what you're doing right now, but I know you're faithful. And I think remembrance is the most powerful thing we can do when we are either facing just a weary season, a hard season, when we remember God's past faithfulness and we know that he will do it again and again. And again, that has been like the biggest weapon for me in this season of just remembering God's faithfulness. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Well, that's faith too, right? It is trusting that God is still there because there will be days that we don't see him or feel like we can't hear him, or feel like his presence is not showing up how we want it to show up. And so, yeah, that, that's faith is remembering like God is good and he is still here even when it doesn't look like we. We want it to. [00:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:29] Speaker B: Well, Renee, I want you to kind of bring to light, I want to talk a little bit more about people with disabilities so that the listeners can grow some, some compassion and some curiosity and some better understanding. What is something that might surprise able bodied people about being in a wheelchair? [00:20:51] Speaker A: Wow, that's a hefty question. [00:20:55] Speaker B: It can be as deep or as light as you want it to be. [00:20:57] Speaker A: I think that there is joy. There is joy. There is abundant joy, and there is abundant community foundation in the disability community. And just because someone uses a wheelchair does not mean that their story is a sad story. Or just because somebody uses a wheelchair doesn't automatically make them an inspiration. I think we live in a culture where like, everything people with disabilities do is like, oh my gosh, that's incredible. And like, yes, I appreciate hearing that. Like, I'm an inspiration. If, like, you heard a really powerful message and it spoke to you, but like, if I'm just doing my dishes, this is an everyday task. You know, we often in the disability community constantly hear that, like, we're this inspiration and it comes off in good intention. But I'm honestly like, brother or sister. This is Jesus working in and through me. Like, it's not on me, you know? [00:22:04] Speaker B: Well, and it sounds like one of those things that people just grab for. Like, I'm just gonna say this because I don't know what else to say. [00:22:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like a filler. [00:22:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, what are some other misconceptions that people have? Like when they see you and immediately maybe see the chair first before they see you as a person? What are some misconceptions that, that people. [00:22:24] Speaker A: Have such a great question. I'm so glad you asked this. I think a lot of times people assume that, like, I have no social life, that I do nothing, that I sit on my couch all day, watch tv, that I live in like a group home, or that I, Yeah. Just don't do anything with my life. I remember somebody was so shocked when I was like, no, I Actually run a business. I have a ministry. They were like, what? Like, they can't comprehend it. And so obviously every person with a disability is different. But I think a huge misconception is just that people with disabilities don't offer anything to society. And that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm trying to think of other. Yeah, people just assume a lot and then they assume and they take that as the truth. People are really scared to ask questions. I personally love questions. I'm the most open book you will ever meet. You can ask me anything about my life and I'll give you the answer. I recognize that's not going to be everybody with a disability that you encounter, but I'm a big fan of curiosity. I love when people ask you a question, whether they're 5 years old or 80 years old, it shows that by them asking a question that they care, like, because they don't know and they want to know. And I think sometimes we get scared of like, oh, my gosh. Well, I don't know. So I'm never going to ask. It's like, no, I think most people would prefer that you ask them because how else are you going to learn? And I think too, we have to learn from people with disabilities. On disability. Theology on disability in the church, I see so often, like, these conferences and these things that are happening in the disability and Christian realm, but they have no disabled speakers. And it's like, wait a minute, you're hosting a conference on disability in the church, but you don't have people with disabilities? Being a voice, it just, it really boggles my mind. [00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:35] Speaker B: That doesn't. It doesn't seem to make sense. Yeah, we're going to have a women's ministry event, but only have men speaking. [00:24:42] Speaker A: Yes. Literally. Literally. [00:24:47] Speaker B: So. And I would think Renee, too, it would depend on the question. Right. Like, my assumption is you don't want somebody coming up to you and their question being like, what happened to you? That's probably not a great question. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Not the greatest question, but I would answer it. I've had that. I've had that asked straight to my face multiple times of what happened to you? Just blunt. [00:25:08] Speaker B: What are some better questions that people can gently ask that still respect you as a human? First? [00:25:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a question that I love and I love to just ask everyone. And when I'm like getting coffee dates or whatever with either a disabled person or a non disabled person, it's like, what's your story? Like, I want to hear story. I think that Shows that you. There's this empathetic piece to that of, like, I want to hear about your life. Like, tell me all about it. And that opens the gateway of, like, okay, you can tell me about disability and suffering, but also just tell me, like, things about you and tell me things about your life. And then I also love the question. I just think this is kind of goes off your question a little bit, but I think this is a profound question that we should ask all people is, what do you need? I think that question is so powerful, especially in the church. What do you need? Because that shows that we are opening the gateway of, okay, how can I serve you? And how can you serve me? And, like, if we don't ask, what do you need? It's really hard for us as humans in our pride to say what we need. We don't like to say what we need. We don't like to admit our weakness. But if we have someone else ask us that question, and then opens the gateway to beautiful relationship. [00:26:32] Speaker B: And those are both open ended too, which I love, because what do you need? Could be physical, could be mental, could be emotional. What? Tell me your story again. Could be physical. Could be. Here's how I found Jesus. Could be. Here's what my family life was like growing up. And it kind of leaves it to the other person to decide what they feel like sharing or what they're comfortable saying. Right then. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So good. [00:26:58] Speaker B: That's really good. Well, let me ask you just some super practicals. Okay. Because I've. I've seen these things happen. So let's say that, Renee, you were to come into our church, Mosaic, where we do have a ramp and would love to come in. We. I was also thinking we have a ramp on stage, but it's hidden. And so now I'm kind of like, I wonder what that communicates. Like, we do have one, but it's up our, like, back hallway. [00:27:26] Speaker A: That's how my church is. And I think that's how most churches are. Okay. I think, honestly, that's okay. Okay. For the infrastructure of things and how it all works. Like, I think if we just communicate, like, yes, we have one. And making it, like, very known, because it would be kind of awkward too, if you think about it. There was this huge ramp going up to the space. It might look a little sketch. [00:27:55] Speaker B: The kids are using it as a slide. Just literally. All right, so let's say you come into Mosaic. You come into our church. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:06] Speaker B: And someone wants to talk to you. Should they, like, bend down? Should they Kneel down? Should they keep standing at their perfect height? Like, what is the appropriate thing to do there in conversation? [00:28:18] Speaker A: I love this question so much and I think you're going to hear a different answer from every single person. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Okay, that's also good to know. [00:28:25] Speaker A: But I think for me, I just prefer when people say like standing, like you often hear in disability ministries, which I kind of hate that term of like, you need to get down on their level. But like, honestly, like that sometimes just makes it more awkward and like getting on your knees and like, that's just the most comfortable thing for any human. I will say, like, when I'm getting parade over at times and people like are laying hands on me, because that's something I'm personally very comfortable with. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:59] Speaker A: Like, I don't mind if people like kneel or get more on my level because it is a more like intimate setting. But I will say, like, when I'm just having a conversation with someone, I don't expect you to like be standing up and then all of a sudden just collapse like on the floor. It just makes a big scene when like we're just having a conversation, you know? [00:29:21] Speaker B: Right, right. I always try to think about too. I taught, I was a classroom teacher for a long time and so I worked with a lot of different kids with a lot of different disabilities, physical, mental. And so I've had a lot of training in this, you know, But I've also tried to think about, like, would I do this for an able bodied person? Like, if somebody walked up who is shorter than me, am I gonna squat down? [00:29:46] Speaker A: Exactly. No. And so it's like, why. I think it just creates, I think when you almost squat down or like it sometimes creates like this, I don't know, like, you have less of a dignity. So I need to like get lower. That's. And again, you might hear a different answer from somebody else. But that is just my experience. I'm like, no sister, stay standing. Like, just chilling, you know. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Okay, so how about this one? Somebody comes in, you come in, and a greeter or somebody again who is well meaning wants to either like take your hand, like push your chair in or otherwise physically help you. [00:30:36] Speaker A: Yes. So I'm a big, huge communicator. So I will literally just be like, it's helpful that my chair is a power chair. This happens a lot more with manual wheelchair users where they will literally just take the chair and push it. But I think I'll say like, oh my gosh, thank you so much for your help. But like I'm actually okay. Or like, for an example, at my current church, like, a lot of times the, like, people who help with seating will just assume that, like, oh, I want to sit in this spot. And it's like, no, I actually go in the front row. I love the front row. And I don't care that there's not, like, a carved out spot for me. Like, I will make one. So I think just, like, communicating, like, hey, actually, this is not what I want. I'm gonna go do this instead. And I think my biggest prayer for the disabled community is that they would develop a voice, because I think that's one of the biggest struggles that I'm noticing as I care and shepherd for people with disabilities is they're afraid to use their voice because it's been shot down so many times, or people have just been like, oh, well, let me do it. And, like, if I just let people do what they assume that I want, I would be living a miserable life. Like, I don't want to sit in the back of the sanctuary. I am, like, a full body, like, worship girl who needs front. So, like, we have. We have selected seating on our. We'll have, like, there's seating at our church that says, like, reserved. But I almost don't like that because it's like, no. People with disabilities should be able to sit wherever they want. And so kind of broke that thing. And I've just been like, nope, sorry, going up to the front. But, yeah, I think, yeah, that's one thing that I just notice a lot. [00:32:30] Speaker B: I think, again, it comes down to assumption. Right? Like, ask. Don't assume that someone needs help. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:36] Speaker B: If they want help. [00:32:37] Speaker A: Yes. Or like, sometimes people, when a door is really lightweight, will just. They'll see me coming and they will run. I run. Like their whole life depends on it. Like, the world is ending. And when they open both doors, they stand in the middle of both doors, and it's being less helpful. I know they have such a good heart and they're just trying to help. Yeah. But usually I can open doors and I'm fine. And so when you stand in the middle of the door, I can't really get through. So they're trying to be helpful, but it usually just makes it harder. But God bless them. [00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah. See, that's why we're having this conversation, Renee. We're trying to educate people and help them help them. So I know that right now. And let me. Let me say this first. I'm not going to work under the assumption that because you are in a wheelchair and you have a disability that you are like, full on in all of the DEI legislation. Okay, I know that that is. You are not a legislator, but is there anything right now with the current conversation, you know, talking about DEI programs being removed or possibly defunded, how will that affect people with mobility devices like yours? [00:33:59] Speaker A: Loaded question. [00:34:00] Speaker B: I know. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Honestly, I wasn't even aware of how great of an impact these things that are going into place are going to have on our community until I kind of had some conversations with friends who do work, like, for their state in these programs. And they are really getting defunded. And it is really scary. I try and just remember that Jesus is king and he is sovereign and he cares for the oppressed. And so that's really been my heart through all of this. But the possible effects are really scary. Like, people with disabilities are at risk of losing their Medicaid. And you may think like, oh, well, they can just get another insurance. It's like, no, it doesn't work like that. A lot of people with disabilities have caregivers or have pieces of equipment. Like, my wheelchair alone costs almost $40,000. And so it's not just like, oh, well, you can get something else. It's like, no, this is like how I get around. And so I think, by the grace of God, the Lord has given me a lot of peace of just knowing that he cares for the oppressed and that he will take care of us. But the reality is that this is happening right now and it's a very real thing. And I think, as the church, we say, and I say this in regards to even just the church in general, we say every human life matters. Every human life has value, which I totally believe in. But if every human life has value and every human life matters, and we are pro life, then we also need to realize that these services need to be in place. If we're saying, oh, like, we are so pro life and we want every life to be on this earth, well, then we need to make sure these services don't go away. Um, so that's, I think, the biggest thing that I've wrestled with. Because personally, like, I do, I'm very. I believe every human life has value and dignity here on this earth. But we also need to keep these programs to keep people well, to keep people safe, to keep them thriving. And so really the message to the church is like, we are going to have to step up and show out. Like, that is literally what is going to have to happen. Like, and God is sovereign. Over it all. But we are really going to need people in the church to, like, become an advocate, become a voice, step up, meet needs. Because, like, the reality is we don't know what's going to happen. And I think I'm really grateful knowing that God is sovereign over it all, But I do think, yeah, it definitely is like a worry in the back of my head for sure. [00:36:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I love that you even use the term pro life, because we need to reclaim this. Like, if we are pro life, then we are pro life for all people, for every stage of growth, every part of their life, every. Every person with life. If we're pro life, then we have to support people, you know, all across the board. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Yep. [00:37:16] Speaker B: Is there anything specific that you are like, I wish the church would do this, or Christians would do this as a way of advocating for maybe the dis. How do I say it? The disabled community. [00:37:30] Speaker A: Disability community, disabled community. They're both great. Or people with disabilities, whatever you prefer. But honestly, I think the church is just very unaware of what is happening and what could happen. And so I think. I mean, even I was unaware, if I'm going to be honest. I was very unaware of the realities of what was happening until probably a few weeks ago. And so I think just making our churches aware of, like, hey, do you realize for a person, for example, to get physical therapy or to get this is like this much money and like, yeah, they don't. People aware and people. People don't know people. Being someone with a disability, it's already expensive as is. Like, without. Even if you think of. Without the insurance, like, so much of my insurance covers so much. But then there's other things as a person with disability that you just have to buy out of pocket that like, you wouldn't even think of. And so, yeah. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Do you have an example for us? [00:38:40] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So many things. [00:38:41] Speaker B: I'm sure there are. And you probably just take them all for granted and don't even think about it. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Like, I mean, just even things like certain things with medical care that aren't like, necessarily a necessity, but, like, you need to thrive. Or like, for example, people with disabilities may not be able to like, cook for themselves, so they may. If they want healthy eating, they may have to do like, a meal service that's more expensive. And people think, oh, they're just doing that for luxury. No, they're not. [00:39:09] Speaker B: Yeah, like, great example. [00:39:12] Speaker A: And I think. Or like, oh, why would. Why do we need like all these delivery services? It's like someone with a Disability may not be able to get out and go get those things. Yeah. So I think. Or even transportation. Like, I'm lucky enough to, like, have a car that's adapted. But, like, a lot of transportation services, like, are very expensive. Like, for example, for someone to go to a doctor's appointment that's like 30 minutes away from their house, it's like $70 each way. Like, it's not cheap. And so I think people don't factor in all those extra, like, expenses. [00:39:54] Speaker B: And it's not like these are elective appointments. Like, these are appointments that you need to go to to care for your body. Yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker A: It's not like, woohoo. This is so fun. Yeah. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Right. Well, thank you, Renee. Before I ask you, I kind of want to switch it to more of, like, the mental. Like, you talked about, like, a darkness and a despair scenario. But before we do that, is there anything else that you wanted to say about, you know, just the physicality of it and how people approach you when they see your chair? [00:40:27] Speaker A: I think the only thing I would say is see every human as an image bearer, because we all are one. [00:40:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:34] Speaker A: And so I think we're always like, okay, Renee, what are the practicals? And that's great. But I also think if the church would just start seeing every human life made in the imago dei, and they would get out of their head a little bit and get a little uncomfortable. Because it is uncomfortable. Like, when you don't. When you don't know something, it is uncomfortable. But if you just get out of your own way and are like, oh, my gosh, this person is made in the amago day, like, let me. Let me go be curious. Like, everything would change. So I think that's my last thought on that. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Yes. Amen. That'll preach, sister. Let's go. I love it. Well, let's. Kind of. To the listener, maybe that related to you talking about being in a dark space or a hard season. Did you ever have a moment where maybe when you were growing up in the Catholic Church, did you ever have a moment where you kind of questioned God or why he created you the. [00:41:31] Speaker A: Way that you did all the time? I think it was more like before I knew Jesus of just like, lord, why? Why would you do this to me? Like, if you're. If you're. You hear the statement a lot, even from Christians, of like, I don't understand, Renee. Why do bad things happen to good people? That's the question that I get every week, all the time. And I do my best by the Power of the spirit to answer that question. But we're not going to have all the answers. Yeah, we're not going to. We. The fact is, we live in a broken and fallen world, and so bad things are going to happen to the most amazing, faithful people on this earth. And so, yeah, I think there's even, like, I'm on fire for Jesus. And there's still moments at times where I am like, God, what are you doing in the midst of this? And, like, how are you working in the midst of this? And I think God welcomes our questions. God welcomes our curiosity. I think we get so scared and we're like, no, no, no, no, no. I can't say that to him. But the thing is, he knows your thoughts before you even have them. He knows your questions before you even have them. So I want to be careful answering that question because, yes, there were seasons that I really doubted and struggled. But still to this day, as someone in ministry, there are days where I doubt. There are days where I wrestle. We all do. [00:42:58] Speaker B: If. [00:42:59] Speaker A: If we're saying we never do, we're lying. Right. Because it's not true. And so being. Knowing that God is a safe place to go to with our questions and our doubts, I think is so important. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I love that, too, because it's so broad. Right. I mean, there are people listening who are questioning why God made them, you know, with depression or with some other mental health issue or who are struggling with their sexuality or are struggling with anger or who are struggling with an eating disorder or, like, there are so many things, right, where people can question, why am I like this? [00:43:40] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:43:41] Speaker B: Trauma, grief, pride, like, whatever it is. So, yeah, go ahead. [00:43:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I take that with all of those things with tender care. And, like, I see you in that. And then also my response to that would be, and I know sometimes when we're in seasons of grief, we hate to hear this. And so I say this with the most love and compassion. But, like, God is working in ways you can never imagine, and nothing he allows in your life is wasted. And so often the church, for example, will be like, let's pray away your depression or pray away your anxiety. And it's like, no. Often those things are the very gateway that bring us to our knees and allow us to depend on Jesus like never before. And so, yes, does God have the power to heal all those things? Absolutely. But I also, a huge pet peeve of mine is, like, when people are, like, when I came to Jesus or when I met Jesus, all my depression Disappeared and it will never come back. It's like, no, actually will in some capacity because you're gonna face hard things. You can' Tell me it's never going to come. Don't just skippity dot through life that doesn't exist. Like, it doesn't. Even if you don't have a diagnosis of clinical depression, you're going to face grief, you're going to face sadness. Oh, I feel like people just don't know how to feel. They're like, well, since I'm Christian now, I need to feel just all the good emotions and I can't feel bad emotions. What if emotion just is right? [00:45:19] Speaker B: Oh, that's so good. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Good or bad, it just is. Like, there's a reason you feel the heartache, there's a reason you feel the joy. They all connect to something. If you were just coming into church and you were telling your pastor that you're having a great week every single week of your life, that is a lie from the pit of hell. And, like, I don't want to hear it. Yeah, like, it's just not true. Like, you're going to face hard things. [00:45:47] Speaker B: In this life and it sets other people up for unrealistic expectations. When it's like, oh, well, you come to Jesus and then your depression is, is cured or gone or never comes back. Like, sure, maybe it's better, maybe you have hope in it. But when someone hears that does begin a relationship with Jesus, then their depression comes back. That's what leads to that toxic theology of going, like, wait, so is this not real? Is God not really real? Did I not really. Is my faith not strong enough because I still got problems. [00:46:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And then there's this cycle of shame that goes with it as well. Of like, well, everybody else around me is saying that I shouldn't be dealing with this, but I am, right. It's like, no, Jesus literally wept. Like, he felt every emotion. And yeah, I think we're, we're getting better at the mental health conversation. But I think it's still, again, it goes back to what I said at the beginning of we live in a fix it mentality of how can I fix my body? How can I fix my mind? How can I be better, do better? And it's like, well, what if we just stopped striving and, like, abided in Christ and abided in his love and his care for us. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, Renee, this has been so enlightening. I'm so glad that you've been here. My last question for you is because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening be the church to the people around them? Maybe specifically to people with different bodies than their own. [00:47:28] Speaker A: Honestly, I think just being curious and being empathetic and being open minded. And again, like I said, just be the church by viewing everybody in the Amago day. And if you say, lord, help me to see people the way that you see people, you will be surprisingly shocked what the Lord reveals to you and you might get mega convicted. But it will be the greatest ride of your life because when you see people the way that Jesus sees them and saw them, everything changes. [00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that prayer changed my life. Changed my life. So yes, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. I will link up even if ministries and your Instagram so people can follow you and learn from you and not just about disabilities, but about Jesus. Like you are just doing really great and amazing work and so I just thank you for your voice and your commitment to persevering through all of the things. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Thank you so much friend. It was so good to be here here. [00:48:39] Speaker B: I hope this conversation with Renee has helped you to see different people in a different light. Whether they have physical disabilities or are trying to navigate through mental or emotional health, let's be people who lead the way of diversity, equity and inclusion by seeing all people as people. First, let's honor their Imago Day, their God given reflection of him before accidentally making one aspect of them their entire identities. Thank you for being willing to listen and humbly learn so we can grow together. Thanks so much for listening and until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around.