Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mochler Young, and my guest today is Joash P. Thomas. He is a global advocate for liberation. Joash helps people understand scripture from a justice perspective, as well as reimagining faith as something that unites instead of divides. He was born and raised in India and has immigrated twice, which I will let him explain to you. While this will not be a quote unquote political conversation, he does have a unique perspective from both the political and faith angles that he's going to bring to this conversation on justice.
All right, Joash, welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Thank you. So great to be here.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: Yes, excited to have you. Our Canadian friend from up across the border. I'm very interested to hear your take on a lot of different things since you have a different perspective and insight maybe than most of our listeners, I would say.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely been a unique journey and I've had the chance to live and work in three countries. India, the US and now Canada. So I'm a US Citizen who works in Canada. So it's a fascinating journey for sure.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: That is really cool. Tell me about, tell me more about India.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Mumbai, spent the first 18 years of my life there. Grew up in a house, church, about 30 people. And anytime we exceeded 30 to 50 people, we'd plant another church. And so it started off as one church and it's about 100 churches in the city of Mumbai today. But, but yeah, that was my upbringing. My mom was my Sunday school teacher, led me to Christ at a young age and, and I started pursuing Jesus in the context of the work of justice from an early age as well. So, yeah, When I was 18, my family moved to the US to be closer to our extended family and relatives. And so I found myself in Atlanta, Georgia, where I spent, I've spent most of my adult life in Atlanta actually. And yeah, got my bachelor's, my master's, and, you know, worked in the US Political world and then joined the human rights nonprofit advocacy space. And that brought me up to Canada four years ago. So feel, feel like I'm from everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: I feel like you've already lived like three different lives.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Definitely feels that way. Yeah. Two time immigrant. I mean, it's, it's rough being an immigrant one time. I feel like I've had the unique privilege to be an immigrant twice in My life. And that's come with some unique perspectives and life experiences.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Wow. Were they now very different, you know, time. Very different time frames. But would you that the two experiences of like immigrating from India and then from America to Canada, were they a little similar? Super different.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Very different in the sense of even just being aware of my own privilege. So, you know, when I moved from India to America, I was moving to America was actually a bit of a downgrade for our family.
We were quite well off in India and it was a huge sacrifice when my parents decided to move to the States for my education. Education, my younger sister's education.
So found ourselves in the States and really struggled for the first five years. You know, that's just the life of an immigrant to any country in the West. You struggle for the first five years but.
But, you know, then established myself in my career and was essentially brought to Canada as an expat from the US So. So, you know, when you move as high skilled labor as an expat with a nice relocation package and things like that to another country, it's always a different experience moving as an 18 year old immigrant. Right. So yeah, it's been vastly different experiences, but it's also been interesting because I run into a lot of other Indian immigrants in Canada who are shocked that I'd moved from the US to Canada because everyone's trying to move to the US from here.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: Are they still though? Are they still?
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Depends on who you ask. Totally depends on who you ask. And yeah, I would say there are pros and cons to, you know, both countries for sure.
You know, like I realized moving across here, for example, I'm seven times less likely to die from gun violence just moving across the border. So that's something that's interesting that I didn't realize.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: That is not surprising.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so, so interesting. But at the same time, cost of living here is not.
But hey, that's free healthcare, so that's nice.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: You know, we're just balancing it out. Pros and cons. Pros and cons.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Totally, totally.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: Well, thanks for sharing a little bit about that. What were your degrees in? Was that more like religious stuff or political stuff? You know, very, very fancy terminology here with the word stuff as I refer to your degrees.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: No, stuff's a good way to put it. Yeah, so my bachelor's was in political science international affairs from Georgia State University.
My first master's was in political management from George Washington University.
And I worked in the political world around then too.
And then I Enrolled in seminary about six and a half years ago while working full time. So I've been doing seminary part time and have about 100 hours in seminary credits from Dallas Theological Seminary. And it's way more than the one that's needed for the one master's degree. So they're giving me two seminary master's degree this may. So that should be fun. So, yes, I'll have never planned on having three master's degrees my early 30s, but here I am and I'm not done hoping to do a PhD in history or something right after.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Awesome. Good for you. Good for you. We are cheering you on. That's amazing.
Well, I know part of your experience is you are a Republican political consultant. And so we've got both, you know, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, pretty much the vast majority of anybody you can think of that's listening right now. But what is the most impactful thing that you took away just from that experience?
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
I think one of the biggest learnings for me working in the political world is that political leaders are human beings at the end of the day. And I would see both sides of it, so, you know, working very closely. So I worked as a policy advisor, worked as chief of staff for a few state representatives. I worked as a speechwriter for the former governor of Georgia, you know, on his reelection campaign. So I did a wide variety of things and got to really know political leaders behind the scenes.
Yeah. Worked for people running for Congress and Senate, president, city council, mayor of Atlanta, you know, like all levels that you can think of. And I think, yeah, what really stands out to me is that people who disagree vehemently with the people I worked with, worked for, tend to demonize these political leaders, tend to assume the worst.
But at the end of the day, they're human beings just like you and I. And yes, we may land in different places, but they're still made in the image of God. They still love their children the way. The way we do. They still love their communities. And most of them are just trying to do the best that they can.
Now, of course, the reality is I've seen a lot of good people come in to the political world with their Christian faith, with the best of intentions, and then realize that to stay in power, you have to make compromises.
And so that's where they lose themselves a little bit. And that's why my heart breaks for so many folks I've worked with in the political world.
It's just that at the end of the day, I know that they are not being honest with themselves and so much of what they publicly say. So that's what breaks my heart just as much as sometimes the harmful policies that politicians can support.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you see that draw to power. Right. You kind of just. You have watched it with people that you have a relationship with, like you said, change from maybe who they were or who they even want to be.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: For the power position. It's interesting. I love that you said, you know, that we should try to believe the best or not try to demonize people. I recently did a sub stack that was called Dear Trump Supporters, and it was really like a very niche, niche, niche audience. And I really was trying to give words to people who. What I would call, like, a blue dot in our red community.
The people that reach out to me mostly were like, hey, my whole family is Republican, and I'm not, and I'm really struggling. And it's so funny, because people on the Internet, I know this is going to surprise you, Joe. People on the Internet got so angry, so angry when really, like, if they had gone and read what I had actually written. The whole thing was really leaning into, like, curiosity and compassion and remembering that the people that we don't understand, like, it's. I think it's easier to be mad at the voters than the people in power themselves sometimes, because it gives us a place to, like, place our anger, you know? Yeah, but that was kind of. My whole thing is. Yeah. Like, it's so hard. But what we really need to do is not demonize people. See them as individuals, Lean in with curiosity and compassion and remember, like, hey, these are people that even if, like, we're not trying to love them, and I think a lot of people are, like, we're still called to. We're still seeing. Called the sea Imago day in them, you know?
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: It's so tricky.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: It totally is. And it's so fascinating because one of the things I learned early on in politics is that most people hate Congress but love their local congressmen, which is so interesting. Right. And. And I think there's something to that. I think. I think there's this truth of proximity that, you know, I think it was Governor Chris Christie who once said, it's difficult to hate up close, you know, so when you get to know people, when you get to see them in your community, when you get to build a relationship with them, you just have a different level of context into their lives. And I'm sure, you know, you and I get this all the time, too, as public figures in The Christian world, where people. We have people in our lives, in our inner circle who disagree with us but would still not demonize us the way people who don't know us do when they see something in short form that we write on social media.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Without even taking the time to read the long form thing we're doing, like the video or the substack post. Right, but. But yeah, you're right. At the end of the day, it's so easy to demonize and vilify when, as Christians, I think it's important for us to have this posture of humility and curiosity and asking questions. And as Ted Lasso says, be curious, not judgmental.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yes. I love a pop culture reference. So good. So good. Yeah. And I think part of it, too, is us modeling. Like, not just modeling, like, this is how to do it, guys. But also modeling also. It's really hard. Like, it's also. We're telling you to do this as I'm also looking myself in the mirror and going, no, Kristen, like, you also do this because it's hard. It's so hard.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Totally, totally. Yes.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: But is there something joash that, like a moment maybe that changed or shifted the way that you see the world that took you kind of from the political side into more of like the social justice side?
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So what's interesting is I got into the political world because of my love for God and neighbor. Right. So I learned about Christian human rights work at a very young age, at 15, and I wanted to be a Christian human rights lawyer from a young age. God had slightly different plans. I had to go through the political world, gain skills there, and then come into the Christian human rights space to do advocacy.
But, you know, I think what really did it for me was just realizing I was wrong in so many of the assumptions that I made. Yeah. As a. As a young Christian, I just assumed that amassing power was the way to best love my neighbor and to best seek justice for them.
And there are good things you can do with power, but the tricky thing about power is that to keep power, like I said, you have to make compromises. And I've watched the best people who I worked with in Georgia politics make compromises to stay in power for the better good long term, and then ultimately not do any good for themselves, their families, their communities, and their marginalized neighbors. So. So I think that's something I realized early on, that in politics, at the end of the day, once you get a taste of power, you want to do everything you can to hold on to it. And, and I realized that this contradicted the way of Jesus, which is to actually give power away. Right. We see this in Philippians 2, where Jesus comes down to earth, lays aside his privilege and, and becomes nothing, you know, gives up his divine rights as, as the Son of God to make himself nothing asleep for our sakes. And, and I think that's the Christian way that's so lost today. And so for me, I often tell people I tried to look for Jesus in the halls of power. I thought I'd find him there. I never found him there. I actually found Jesus close to the margins.
And, and that's where I realized I wanted to pitch my tent and spend my career and my life really just following Jesus and experiencing Jesus daily close to the margins because he. He's with the marginalized communities around the world. So, you know, for example, when Jesus said blessed are the poor, he wasn't just saying that people who are poor will be blessed. He was also saying that people who are poor are already blessed because God is already on their side. Jesus is already to be found among them. And I found this to be true. And over a decade of human rights advocacy work.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So would you say that's kind of the thing that lights you up about, like, Christians or the church is finding Jesus or helping people, like, find Jesus in the margins?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: I think so, yes. I think, I think for me, my pursuit as an advocate for justice has come about from just trying to follow Jesus more in my own life, but also asking questions like, how is the Gospel good news for people in poverty and oppression?
And how is my presentation of the Gospel good news for people in poverty and oppression? Right. And so I was actually, for example, I was just at this global church conference on justice and freedom in, in Sri Lanka last week. And it's. This is the Lausanne Network, if you're familiar with Lausanne, it's, you know, the evangelical global church movement. So they had their very first justice conference, Justice Network conference in Sri Lanka, and delegates from all over the world. I was the only Canadian delegate. There were a few other Americans there, but most of the people there were from South Asian persecuted church context.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Okay, wow.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: And they were talking about how justice is an important part of their expression of the good news of Jesus, that they can't separate social justice from the gospel because to them, in contexts where their neighbors and themselves are being poor and oppressed, the gospel of Jesus has to sound like good news to our poor and oppressed neighbors. It has to meet their physical needs. Also in the Here and now. Otherwise it's never going to be received in these contexts. So that was wildly encouraging for me, considering that these folks are actually being persecuted. And I know we have different ideas of what persecution may look like here in the Western church, but I think, I think they have a clear idea because they literally have people, you know, come point guns and weapons at their faces, telling them to stop worship services to. Yeah, they get beaten up anytime they try to witness to their faith. I mean, we don't have to worry about things like that here in the west. And. And they still prioritize justice as an important part of following Jesus. And so I think that also fuels me and gives me courage to witness of our Global south neighbors.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: At the same time, they must be so confused when they look at the Western American church, be like, how do you. How do you even separate justice? Like, they must just be so confused as. Like, how that's even an option for us.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: They totally are. They totally are. And at the same time, I get the sense that they have to be careful because so many of their ministry partners are in the west and so much of their ministry's funding is attached to the West. So there's this dependency on resources from the west again, for historical reasons. Right. I mean, because of things like the transatlantic slave trade and colonization, we have resources that have accumulated here in the west at the expense of communities in the Global South. And now when we do the work of fundraising, of support raising for. For justice work in the east and the Global south, it's quite reparative. It's righting what's been wronged over generations. And that's beautiful. But at the same time, our siblings in Christ in the Global South Church feel weirded out sometimes by our theology in the west and how we try to impose that with our funding structures.
And I think in an ideal world, and I write this in my book as well, in an ideal world, there should be a mutuality of a relationship, mutuality of a partnership between the Global South Church and the Western church where we send them resources and they send us their theology, because I think that's a beautiful way to live in mutuality with each other.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I know you're probably listening right now while you're driving, walking, or doing some other type of multitasking, which makes it tricky to take notes. Remember that there are always links to things that are mentioned here in the show notes. You can scroll down on your podcast app to find them or jump over to BecomingChurch TV where you can access it all you can also follow along with me on social media, hristenmochler Young, where I'll link you right up to my weekly guest as well.
Well, you. You dropped. You just kind of dropped like ploop. I have a book here and Because Joe Ash, because you and I have the same amazing agent in Morgan Strehlow.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: I actually got some insider information.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: On you.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: I was like, morgan, help me out. So in your book proposal, I'm gonna read a question that you proposed.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: You said, if the Gospel of Christ is both physical and spiritual, then why do Western Christians over prioritize spiritual salvation and under prioritize justice and liberation for human bodies? And I feel like I don't need to ask you anything else, and you can just talk about that for the rest of the interview.
Unpack that a little bit.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I think this in many ways is the thesis or the core question that I'm trying to answer in the book. And it's helped me so much to look at history and global Christianity's history, specifically the history of colonization. Right. So I know that words like colonization, decolonization can be a trigger word, a buzzword sometimes, words that get abused, too, even by folks on the progressive side. But, you know, for me, colonization isn't an academic concept. It isn't a theory. It's something that my family actually lived and experienced in the global South. Right. And so, yeah, so. So it's interesting. It's. It's a lived experience.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: Can you explain that a little bit for people that are listening and they're like, I have no idea what that even would look like.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, 100%. And, you know, feel free to fact check me here. Anyone listening? You can Google search this. It's all on Wikipedia as a first source. But, you know, the reality is. So colonization has always existed around the world. It's not a uniquely Western, but in many ways it was franchised by the west across the global South. So you had, you know, you had Western nations looking for spices from the east that, you know, ultimately you had trade routes being closed through the Ottoman Empire with the fall of Constantinople in the 1500s. And then. And then you had these Western empires saying, well, we got to find new trade routes.
So they ended up sending merchants and, you know, people like Vasco da Gama, who ended up in India, or Christopher Columbus, you know, who was looking for India and ended up in North America. And so they went looking for these resources. But once they found these resources, instead of engaging in Trade and fair practices. They set up these colonial empires to extract resources.
And when I say resources, I'm also talking human resources. Because if you look at the history of the transatlantic slave trade, it was essentially an extraction of resources for the benefit and enrichment of empires here in the West. And the sad reality with all this, if you look at it historically, is that the Western church, so much of the Western church, was actually an active participant in Western colonization. Again, I'm not making any of this up, and it's not a critique against one branch of the Western church, but really all of it. So, you know, whether it's the Church of England, Anglicans, it's the Roman Catholic Church, the Portuguese or Spanish empires, the Dutch, Dutch Reformed Church, you know, all of these churches, denominations partnered with their empires to basically support the colonial task of extracting resources and really justifying it in the name of Jesus.
So you had things like, for example, you know, feel free to Google search this. There's this thing called the slave Bible, right? What, what's the slave Bible? It's basically a version of the Bible with so much of the Bible actually removed parts of the Bible that talks about God's heart for people in poverty, oppression, which are massive chunks of the Bible entirely removed from these Bibles and given to people in slavery with the messaging that Jesus cares more about the salvation of your soul than the freedom of your human body. So don't worry about your slavery, don't worry about your shackles in this lifetime. Jesus will rescue you when you die and go to heaven was kind of the theology that were presented. Right. And so the argument that I make in the book is that colonization wasn't just bad for the global south, it was also bad for the Western church because it shaped us in the Western church to resist justice for poor and oppressed communities all over the world. Right. And so this is why, you know, I've worked for a human rights organization that rescues people from human trafficking and, you know, currently lead our team that does church partnerships across Canada. And very regularly we'll have pastors refuse to support our work telling us, what's the point of rescuing children from slavery if their souls go to hell? Aren't they dead in the water anyway? Right? So, like, where does this theology come from? Where, where, where do we have the audacity to assume things like this and deny the physical freedom and liberation of our neighbors and poverty and oppression because of our narrow view of the good news of Jesus? Which, by the way, if we look at Jesus's description of The Gospel In Luke, chapter 4, verse 18, Jesus says, the spirit of the Lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor, to set the captive free. Right. This is Jesus's definition of his gospel, good news. And, and then Jesus goes and he does it. The rest of the Gospel of Luke, he's sett people free from their, from their physical ailments. He's, you know, setting people free from demon possession. You know, he's doing things like that. So anyway, all to say, I think, I think the Western church's support for colonization has shaped our theology to resist justice. And so much of my book is casting a positive prognosis and a vision for how we can fight and push back against that, to prioritize justice.
[00:26:09] Speaker A: Good. Awesome. That is. That will be a much needed resource when it comes out. What are. Because I think it's still easy for people to go like, yeah, but that was so long ago. And so if there are systems in place, like, what are we supposed to do about it? It's been this way for forever and whatever. What are the, like, the people that are turning down your, you know, like you mentioned the pastors that are like, no, no, we don't need to help save these children. Which I'm like, I can't even say that sentence out loud. That's insane. But how are they justifying it? Like, are they still using scripture? Are they using church structure? How are they justifying still having the separation of justice from their church, where I would assume, trying to believe the best about them, that they think they are doing the right thing?
[00:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah. 100. I think, you know, I think ultimately we're all a product of our environments. Right. And I was conditioned in both positive and negative ways in the Indian Evangelical church that I grew up in. And so the same is going to be true for all of us. I mean, I, I tell people that, you know, not to bash in the west too much, but my ancestors have been Christian for 2000 years and we go trace our ancestry all the way back to the Apostle Thomas who brought the gospel to South India. And.
Yeah, yeah. And as cool as that is, there's, there's heaviness in our history too, because my ancestors participated in the caste oppression of their neighbors. Yeah, right. So what, what do I do about that? What do we do about that? Well, we can't change the past, but we can be faithful in the present. Right. And so this is also the message of the book that.
And by the way, the book's called the justice of Jesus pre orders Go live very soon. And it officially comes out in September.
You can sign up to get notified on my website when pre orders go live. But, but, but, yeah, the reality is that, you know, you've, you've got, you've got pastors who love Jesus but have a very narrow definition of the gospel because they've been conditioned to believe that the gospel is purely spiritual or more spiritual than physical. And so it's not like they don't care about justice. They, they know that justice is important.
And I say this in the book too. They, you know, I, I think one of the tenets of the colonizers gospel is, you know, justice is important, but it's not as important as spiritual salvation. Yeah, exactly. When in reality Jesus cares about both the spirit and the body. And, and that's why you see Jesus care for both spiritual and physical needs throughout the Gospels. And, and I think the church has gotten really good at caring for spiritual needs while neglecting physical needs and sometimes even oppressing the, the physical bodies of our marginalized neighbors in the name of the spiritual.
[00:29:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, there is this idea. I mean, I definitely grew up thinking, you know, you become a Christian to go to heaven, right? Like, that's why, like this is. And so that's that spiritual salvation idea. Like we have to save people and everybody, we don't want people to go to hell. And yes, still true. But for me it was. What shifted was that idea of like, but God put us here like now, like right now, he put us on this earth.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: And so there's got to be something to bringing heaven to earth. And yeah, living out love of our neighbor and all of that stuff now. Or like, why wouldn't we just all be in heaven like the second that we accept Jesus, like, up we go, you know?
[00:29:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, too heavenly. Concern for any earthly good is sometimes an allegation that's thrown against the church for good reason because of theology like this. And again, I'm not, I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't been said in church history for the last 2,000 years. You know, I don't think I'm saying anything that Christian on the margins hasn't been saying for 2000 years that the early church hasn't said that Jesus hasn't said, you know, because the reality is I'm pointing us back to Jesus here, which is why the book is called justice of Jesus. And I'm saying just look at Jesus, you know, like, push everything else away. Look at Jesus. Look at how he lived his life.
Because something that's also true about the way we look at Jesus so much in the Western church is that we only see Jesus as a sacrificial lamb and we just want him to be born, to die for our sins so that we can go to heaven and that's it.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: Forget about that whole middle part of his actual life.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: We go Christmas to Easter, like that's it.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: That's exactly it. Yep. And. And we don't. We don't wrestle with his teachings, which are actually quite uncomfortable and provocative. Right. Like Jesus's teachings against people who amass wealth and power for themselves. Like, we don't sit in the tension of that enough in the Western church or even the global South Church, you know, but. But at the same time, yeah, he has these teachings and, and look at how he lived his life.
Look at the way he empowered women around him at a day and age when that was unacceptable.
He. He had, he encouraged women to sit at his feet and learn, like the students of a rabbi, when at his time that was so countercultural and so taboo. I mean, there's a reason why he ended up on the cross. He, you know, he did some controversial things in the way he lived his life, like getting his disciples to eat during the Sabbath, to care for their physical needs. Again, showing that he cares about both the physical and the spiritual. So that's my call to the church. Let's not forget the physical. Let's not neglect the physical, because is. It's through the physical that the gospel is proclaimed the loudest.
The birth of Christ, the incarnation is a physical event. It's also a spiritual event, but it's first a physical event.
[00:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: The death, the resurrection of Jesus. First and foremost, physical events that have spiritual connotations and very spiritual. But first spiritual, first physical. Right. So. So anyway, that's. That's the crux of the message here too.
[00:32:37] Speaker A: Yeah. We talk a lot about the Gospel being good news for the oppressed and bad news for the oppressors, but no one thinks they're the oppressor, Joash. Nobody. Like, it's very hard. We always, you know, read scripture stories, anything. And we always. We tend to identify ourselves with the good guy or the victim, but not generally like the bad guy. So how can we tell if we accidentally are falling into the category of the oppressor?
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow. Such a good question, I would say. And being in therapy for over six years has helped me realize that at any given day, I can be both the oppressed and the oppressor. Yes, if I'm not dealing with my trauma. Right. So all of us accumulate trauma in different ways from childhood or life experiences. And, you know, if. If we don't deal with that pain, it can make us bitter human beings that end up oppressing and traumatizing others.
In fact, if you look at the history of the Western Church, the reason why so much of the Western Church has oppressed its neighbors is because of its own trauma. You know, you go back all the way to Augustine and watching the fall of Rome and watching the Church being persecuted for centuries and then now having political power for the first time. Of course you want to go after all your enemies and execute them because that's what was done towards you. But that's. That doesn't look like Jesus, you know, that's not the Christian way. That's not the Jesus way. So I think, you know, I think all. I think it's important for all of us to hold a mirror up to ourselves the way Jesus told us to, you know, before trying to take the. The speck of dust from our brother's eyes, trying to take the log of wood from our own. Yes, I think it's important to hold that mirror up and recognize that we have the capacity to be both the oppressed and the oppressor at the same time.
And all throughout human history, you see examples of the oppressed becoming the oppressors, Right. So these aren't definitive categories.
You see examples of the oppressors becoming the oppressed too.
And so these aren't definitive categories. But what's important for us as the Church to remember at all times is that God always stands on the side of people in poverty and oppression, regardless of which human category, which human group is on the side of oppression right now.
And if the oppressor and the oppressed ever switch sides, then God will also switch sides to stand with the newly oppressed people. And so I think it's important for us to see that these aren't definitive categories, that these keep changing throughout human history and that we need to look for where Jesus is at the end of the day. He'll always be in the side of the oppressed. Yeah, so. So that would be my response to wrestling with that Good question of, you know, what side am I on? And I'll say this too. So I say this in my book as well. I am both a child of colonization and a beneficiary of colonization at the same time. Right. So I became a beneficiary of colonization the day I moved to America. When I started to benefit from the North American education system. Infrastructure, wealth, resources.
And at the same time, I am a child of colonization because I grew up in the global South Church. Right. So, like, all of us can have these different categories, but ultimately it's about looking for where Jesus is and who's being oppressed at any given moment.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: I think it's very fascinating that you made the point that it can change, because I think part of what happens, and this is, this is not based off of historical data. Don't Wikipedia or Google this. This is just my own analysis. Yeah, but I think a lot of what happens when people become oppressors is there's this pride of, like, no, I know what I'm doing, I know what I'm about. And that pride gets in the way of God being able to reveal different things to us where I think the second that we go, no, I'm certain about this. Like, I know, I know what I'm doing. I know what God said. Like, there's. I just more and more think about this idea of certainty and how it really is pride getting in the way of humility. Pride getting in the way of grace.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:13] Speaker A: Like, as soon as we decide, oh, I could never be the oppressor, you know, I mean, we can look at any situation. It doesn't just have to be justice. I think anytime we look at another person, their sin, their mistake, whatever, and say, oh, I could never do that, I would never do that, we have just lost all compassion and grace for them, not understanding how somebody maybe could get in that situation.
I do. It's hard. It's hard and it's messy. But I do want to believe the best, like we said earlier, even about the oppressors, that, like, they did not seek out to do this.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: But somehow they found themselves in this position because either they benefited, like you said, or they were chasing power or things just went askew and it's uncomfortable, I think, to sit with and wrestle with it from that perspective.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. And at the end of the day, human societies and communities are just a reflection of the broken individuals that are in it. Right. And so I talked about these politician friends of mine who get elected to elected office with the best intentions. Right.
And then make compromises along the way and join the side of the oppressors or become the oppressors that themselves, unintentionally, they never set out to be that way, but they found themselves there. Right. And. And so I think, yeah, all of us need to walk with Jesus every day for exactly this reason. Right. We can't just put our faith in Jesus and then assume that everything's going to be fine. This is where discipleship comes in. Right? Right. This is where the messy work of discipleship comes in, as, you know, as a pastor, I'm sure. And it's. It's messy because there's no black and white. There's so much gray. And you're sorting through all of it. You're trying to keep your eyes on Jesus at the same time. But.
But this is where church leaders have such an important role to play in discipling our people.
At great personal cost, though, because when. When you stand up for justice, as you have, and you know this firsthand, you know, you. You will get backlash, you will get resistance. And this isn't anything new in the history of the church either. We stand in a long tradition of people who've been stoned to death for standing up for what's righteous and just.
And there's a reason for it, and this is why Jesus was crucified, too, is because when you proclaim the kingdom of God, you're essentially ushering in a new reality. You're ushering in a new order of things. And for God's kingdom to be ushered in, we are going to get resistance from the old order of things that want to protect the status quo.
Power in the hands of people who have power. And. And this is why Jesus was ultimately crucified by people who had power. The Roman Empire, the religious hypocrites. Right.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, Joash, right now there are people. There are actual people that are either being, like, literally oppressed or they're afraid that they're going to be, as, you know, different changes are made legally. But I know a lot of the people listening. It doesn't affect them. Yeah. And so I want you to speak to the people who are not affected without necessarily speaking to specifics of any one particular group. Maybe, for example, like white evangelicals, for example. Why do they need to pay attention instead of just focusing on, like, what's best for me and mine?
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, and I posted this on social media this morning, too, where I said, the things that happen in the world, whether we realize it or not, shape us.
And in some ways, we have some power over it to decide how it lets. How it lets it shape us. Right. So it can either. We can either let it shape us to become more like Jesus, which requires giving away power, identifying with the margins, becoming one with the margins, or it can shape us to be Less like Jesus, which means protecting our own, becoming selfish, only looking to protect our own interests, not living a life of generosity, not. Not making ourselves uncomfortable by putting our shoes in our neighbors who are fearful, who have reason to fear. Yeah, so. So I think we have those two choices before us right now. And.
And, you know, the reality, again, looking at human history, is that the way of Jesus is very narrow in many ways. So it's a difficult path. So most of us are not going to choose the way of Jesus at any given point in time. We're going to choose to prioritize our own comfort and privilege instead of giving it away.
But I am greatly encouraged that there are more and more people who are going to prioritize the way of Jesus.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like you just said the most obvious thing, and it. But it still somehow made. Sent a light bulb off in my brain. Right. You said we can be more like Jesus.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: Or we can be less like Jesus. But I don't think that that's actually what people think. I think people, including myself, go, I'm either becoming more like Jesus or I'm staying stagnant.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: I. The.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: The thought of, like, am I becoming less like Jesus? I don't know that that's literally ever crossed my mind. Yeah, yeah, but that is a really valid point. Like, we are changing and we are growing. So it's not. We're just being who we are if we're not becoming more like Jesus. As we change, there is a potential and a possibility that we are becoming less like him.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: 100%. Whoa, whoa.
Right, Right.
You're absolutely right. Because, yeah, it's easy for us to pat ourselves on the back after we put our faith in Jesus.
But, I mean, look at Judas. He became less like Jesus over time, and he. He was around Jesus the whole time. Right. But he. He didn't deal with what was happening inside of his heart with his own resentment, with his own anger and trauma. And at the end of the day, despite being surrounded by Jesus and the eleven other disciples apostles, he finds himself becoming a lot less like Jesus. And.
And so that is a possibility. That is a potential outcome for sure.
[00:43:59] Speaker A: Wow. All right. Well, Joash, since the podcast is called Becoming Church, the last question for you is this.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:06] Speaker A: Even though it feels like every time we turn around, things have changed and it's really hard to keep up, what can people that are listening do? Like, what can we actually do to become the church to the people around us?
[00:44:19] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I. I often say this to people, and I have three Entire chapters on this, too, for that reason. But I think three of the most effective things that an everyday Christian can do to prioritize justice, that an everyday church can do to prioritize justice is pray, give, and advocate. Right. So it begins with prayer. And. And this has to be a guaranteed. Sometimes I.
When I'm. When I'm fundraising at events and I'm speaking and I'm asking people, especially in church settings, to give towards a good cause, I often have people come up to me and say, hey, you. You didn't really ask us to pray about this. To which I say, well, if I have to ask us to pray about this, we need to have a whole separate conversation. It should just be assumed.
[00:45:08] Speaker A: Kind of assumed you were already doing it.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And the beauty of prayer is that we don't have to rack our brains too hard to figure out how to pray. Right. So, like, I grew up evangelical, where I was told, hey, like, pray however you want to pray. God listens to our prayer, which is true.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: But there are always going to be seasons in life where we don't know how to pray because life gets difficult. And how do we pray in seasons like that? And so for me, this is where the Lord's Prayer, the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray, has been helpful, where liturgical prayers, which are basically the psalms, have been helpful. Prayers from the Bible have been helpful, where I don't have to reinvent the wheel. And the Bible has all sorts of prayer. Right. It has intercessory prayer, but it also has imprecatory prayers and psalms for bad days when we're frustrated righteously so against the evil in the world. We can pray some very controversial things because they're in the Bible.
[00:46:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: And God can handle it, you know, and that's okay.
So. So I'd say pray, pray. Prayer is huge. And if we're praying the way Jesus taught us to pray, we will be formed to prioritize justice, because it's all throughout the Bible. It's all throughout the Lord's Prayer.
Giving is another thing. And again, you know, I would say giving is probably one of the most important things we can do as the Western church because we have resources here for historical reasons that the Global south doesn't. Yeah. So let's be faithful stewards of that. Again, we can't change the past, but we can be faithful in the present. So look for organizations who are doing the work of justice to partner with. Look for churches and people of peace, even if they're not Christian, doing good work around the world to financially partner with an advocate at the end, like raise our voices with members of Congress, senators, parliamentarians, wherever we are, local officials on behalf of oppressed, marginalized communities. And I give very specific ideas for this in the last three chapters of my book.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: Book Excellent. Well, as soon as justice of Jesus is out, we will add it to our Becoming Church resource list on Amazon so people can just click right through and grab it, get pre orders. It's I. I can't wait. I can't wait to read it. It's going to be so helpful and so needed right now. So look at God knowing what he's doing with the right timing and all.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: No kidding. No, I appreciate that. Thank you, Kristen. And yeah, I started writing this book too years ago and it's coming out now. And who knew the world would be where it is today, that the resource would be a much needed one. So just honored to be able to help and serve the church in this way.
[00:47:54] Speaker A: Yes, thank you.
Am I becoming more like Jesus or less like Jesus? Did that question hit you the same way that it hit me? I'm going to be thinking about that one this week and praying for God to remove any pride or certainty or anything else that's getting in the way of us seeing where we don't look like Him. There's always grace to grow, but like Joash said, let's be faithful in the present and not become stagnant. Amen. Thanks for listening. Until next time. Keep becoming the church to the people around.
