Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and today's episode is something special. It's a replay of a conversation that I had with Sharon Hottie Miller way back in 2022, which doesn't that feel like a million years ago? Many of you probably haven't heard this conversation yet, but it's on the topic of control, which honestly feels like the perfect addition to our holiday miniseries that we're doing right now. Some of you already know that you're scrambling for control because you're very aware of just how much is happening that's out of your control right now. For some of you, like it was for me in this conversation, live on air, it might be a revelation of the ways that you're using control to try and change your circumstances, your happiness, or even the people around you. Whether you're planning for holiday events, trying to figure out what to wear to all of the Christmas parties, or you're already looking ahead to 2025, this conversation will help you see the connection between control and your anxiety and will offer you a better option. Here's my conversation with Sharon Miller.
Welcome back to Becoming Church. I'm very excited about today's conversation. I actually am with a pastor friend of mine, and I have to use whole name is Sharon Hottie Miller.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Hi. Hey.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: So glad to have you.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: I'm excited to be with you.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Very fun. We were actually chatting in advance before recording. Sharon is a female pastor, which I hate even saying that. I'm like, rolling my eyes that I had to say female pastor.
But you and I have talked so much about. There's not a lot of us out there.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: So your friendship has actually really been a treasure to me. And it's so funny because I actually scrolled back to double check and make sure this was accurate before I said false things on the air. But I messaged you after we met at an Ember event, and I messaged you on Instagram and reached back out and I was like, hey, I don't know. Said some random things. And you were like, oh, yes, I remember. I liked your lip color. And I was like, yes, I have a friend.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: That's really funny. I know. You're like. You're like my fashion role model. Like, I've asked you so many questions since then about, like, eyelash serums and skincare and all sorts of things.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: I love it so much. But that's really why I really love our friendship, because I'm like, we will have theological discussions, we talk about how being a female pastor is so hard. And then we're like, but what about this lipstick? Or did you get this top from Nuuly yet?
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: It'S my favorite thing.
[00:03:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Yes, I love it. Well, thanks. Thanks for being here. You have a book out called the Cost of Control and I want to talk about that in a second. But first, before we blow past this whole thing, why do you think it is hard to connect with other women in ministry? Besides the fact that they're just are not a lot of us to begin with?
[00:03:25] Speaker B: I mean, honestly, that's it. That's a big part of it is there just aren't that many. And so you have to be really intentional to find them. And so I don't know that many women. I live in Durham. I don't know that many women who are leading in the role that I am leading in at my church. And so I've had to find women elsewhere basically. And so you are a good example of one where I said let's get together because I need friends. And so whenever I'm in Charlotte, I try and make time to see you. And really it's similar. There's a handful of other women like that that if I'm going to be in the vicinity, I'm going to try and make time to see them or just connect, you know, through text or virtually, you know, whatever it is. You have to just be really intentional because there just aren't that many of us.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: I feel like too. Tell me if you agree with this. Like you even just said we have to make time. And I was thinking of like the word like luxury came to mind because I know like you and I have are both friends with Jess Connelly and like she's another one that she and I will have these long like voice text conversations either at like six in the morning or late at night or randomly between things because that's the only time that we can do it.
But I almost wonder as females if it has to be a luxury to get that social because there's so many other things on our plate. Do you feel that way or like we have to prove ourselves or work harder A little bit. And so the social aspect just doesn't even. Like there's not even time for it.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I have here. And this isn't even referring to female pastor friends, just friends generally.
I have one friend that I see I'm not Kidding. I have one friend that I really make time for, and that is who I see. And she doesn't go to my church, you know, because I have wonderful relationships with people in our church, but you can't escape that pastor dynamic. And so to have friends outside the church, I just don't have a ton of time. And so, yeah, I just. I have, like, one friend.
I feel it, and I have other friends, but she's kind of the main one that, like, if things are falling apart, she's the one I'm going to text or call.
And from what I've heard, that is pretty normal, especially at the stage of life that you and I are in, where our kids are young. And so I don't have all my extra time that is not given to church is going to go to my husband and my kids. And then, you know, friendship is way below that, unfortunately. So, yeah, it's tough.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: It is tough. It is tough. And there is definitely that ministry dynamic of it's. We could do a whole conversation just on that, having friendships, you know, within the church. Luckily, I, Peter and I, my husband, are super good friends with Naima Ashley, and so I get to work with my friends. And then luckily also he is friends with them, and so that works out for us.
But, yeah, if I stop and think about how much time I actually make for, like, not people that I work with, friends, or people in my church, it would be very, very minimal. Your master's was in something along the lines of, like, women in seminary. Right.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: So that's my doctorate. So I have just an MDIV from Duke, and then my doctorate was on why evangelical women go to seminary or why they don't.
[00:07:05] Speaker A: Right?
[00:07:05] Speaker B: No, it's why they do.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Just why they do.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So I actually, initially, when I was thinking about this project, I considered looking at why so few go.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: But I felt like it would end up feeling very negative, you know, kind of like an expose. But I also didn't know what it would contribute in terms of helping women to go. And so I decided to do what's called an appreciative inquiry, where I looked at the women who do go, because very few women go to seminary, but evangelical women even less. And so I decided to interview women who had decided to go to seminary and just ask them to tell their story. And I was looking for common denominators between their experiences of what worked, like, what empowered them to go to seminary when so few of their peers make that same decision.
And if we know what those things are, we can replicate that and then encourage more women to go. And so that's why I ended up deciding to go that route.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: Was there anything that really surprised you of, like one of the driving factors or.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: It was really encouraging, actually. I only interviewed women at complementarian seminaries. And so if anyone listening doesn't know that word, it's the idea that only that men and women are created different to complement one another, and the offices of pastor and elder are reserved for men, and that women have other roles in the church. And so I only interviewed women at complementary seminaries. And the reason for that is I wanted my findings to be applicable regardless of your convictions around women in ministry. And I was concerned if I looked at women at egalitarian seminaries that complementarian churches would feel like this doesn't apply to us, or they would feel it was agenda driven in some way. And I wanted to be able to say no. Whatever your convictions are around this, here is how you can encourage women to steward their gifts within your church community. And so that was why I did that. But what surprised me is how many of the women I met who were in seminary because their Southern Baptist pastors had said to them, I see this gift in you, or I see this calling on your life, or have you ever thought about going to seminary or have you thought about going into ministry? And you would think, you know, in the very over simplistic narrative of, you know, liberal versus conservative, you would think that that wouldn't be happening, but it is 100% happening. And so it was really beautiful. That was the thing that I found again and again, is that the reason women were at seminary is because they'd had people in their lives who had named their gifts and named their calling and encouraged them to go. And realizing that is how God calls people. You know, whenever we, whenever people encourage us or name our gifts, we tend to receive it as flattery or them just being nice or, you know, I don't. I feel uncomfortable receiving compliments or whatever it is. And this really helped me to reframe that as, no, this is actually the Holy Spirit working in them to help you identify your calling in life. And so don't brush it off as nothing. Don't brush it off as them being nice. This is actually how it works.
And so that was really powerful and beautiful to know that that's happening in all sorts of churches. And so that was a great takeaway.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: I think that really speaks to the importance of community. We at Mosaic, we're in the middle of a thing called Next and it's basically a growth track of like four classes and one of them X Factor. We're talking all about this. We're talking about the Enneagram and spiritual gifts. And recently we had a whole conversation about exactly what you just said. That like, sometimes we've got gifts, but we need other people to either recognize them or call them out in us because we just don't know. We're like, I think I have this. I think God gave me this. But if we're not in the context of community, living them out among other people, either they go unused or unrecognized, or there's not even a space to like, put them into practice.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And we have really leaned into that language to talk about serving because we are. I don't know if you guys are experiencing this at your church, but everyone who's coming to our church is just exhausted. Yeah, they're just exhausted from having lived through a pandemic for the last several years. And so everyone is coming, wanting to be served, but not wanting to serve and saying, I need to have boundaries. This is just a season where I need to rest.
And I'm like, well, I understand that, but unfortunately, that is a recipe for a non functioning church.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: And it's true of everyone.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I've really, you know, Acts 2 has been really helpful to think through. Okay. They had everything in common so that no one had need. And we are very much in a season like that where we need to be sharing one another's burden so that no one has need. But the language of First Corinthians 12, how we're a body of different parts, has also really helped us because a lot of people just don't want to be asked to serve and they feel like their boundaries are being infringed upon. And we have leaned into this language of saying, no, it's not about that. The reason, one of the reasons we serve is so that we can fully embody God's vision for the church. This vision of an interdependent community where we are only going to flourish if everyone is doing their part. And that's not us saying that. That's scripture. Like, right. First Corinthians 12.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: And if we're not all, you know, contributing, the body won't flourish, essentially. So that language has been really helpful right now.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, we all come together to reveal the fullness of Christ, the fullness of the spirit.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: A second ago, too. This is so your heart. I feel like when you were talking about your doctorate and why you chose your topic. You said you wanted it to make sure that what you were saying contributed or helped. And I want to make sure that we didn't brush past that because that is so apparent, I think, even in your social media, yes, in your books, but even your, like, your posts. I don't think I have ever seen you post something that, yes, it will be challenging, yes, it will go against norms. I think that there are probably things that maybe even ruffle people's feathers, but I've never seen you do it in a way that feels like whining or yelling or everything that you do. It just seems really like that's your heart, that if you're like, if I can't contribute, if this is not going to help somebody, I'm not going to. I'm not going to say it. Yeah, it's like kind of one of your checkboxes.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: It is. I am most interested in actually teaching people how to follow Jesus and not lecturing people, not standing on a high horse, not dunking on people, not making my point in a way that feels really good.
And I think what a lot of people, it's not apparent to me that they're asking the question with the things they post. Is this actually going to change people's minds or is this just reinforcing what the people who agree with me already believe? And so much of social media feels that way. And so two of the filters that I kind of run a lot of my posts through, One, is this true for both sides, quote, unquote.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: You know, I think a lot of folks are posting without thinking through.
If this point that I'm making was taken up by someone that I disagree with, would I still agree with this point? And I don't know if that makes sense entirely, but there are things that we say very dogmatically or that we say, this is, this is how we should talk about this, or this is how we should behave. And I think you don't really mean that because if someone took up this practice in service to something that you actually really disagree with, you wouldn't agree with that anymore.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: And so I know that's very vague, but I hope it makes sense.
I mean, a really good example of this. This is like a very controversial thing that I'm about to say, but we'll just go for it. Is that language of my body, my choice?
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: And how we have very different groups that are using it to mean very, very different things. And I think it's Important if you're going to make this assertion, my body, my choice, like, walk it all the way out, you know, like. Like, do you mean it in this situation? Do you mean it in this situation? Do you mean it this situation? And very often, no. And we make all these excuses for, well, I don't mean it that way. Like, here's why it doesn't apply. And it's like, no, you're. Now you're just contradicting yourself and everyone can see it. You're just not being honest about it. And so I.
Yeah, and so I really want to make sure if I'm saying something that this person over here, if they. They picked this up and put it in service to this, it would still hold. You know, then I'm. Gonna. Then I'm gonna say it. And so that's something that I'm constantly kind of running through the filter. And the other is, is this true of me? Like, am I convicted by this? Is this coming out of my own sin? And so one example of that is I just posted something about the prosperity gospel as being about control and how what the prosperity gospel does, again, if anyone's not familiar with that term, it's basically this idea that if you are a good person and if you are a good Christian, that God will give you the life that you want. That is prosperity theology. And at the bottom of it, I have a whole chapter of this in my book. At the bottom of that is really about control. It is our unwillingness to confront our vulnerability in an unpredictable world. And so we have this whole theology that makes us feel less vulnerable. You know, when we see bad things happen to other people and we explain why that was somehow actually their fault, you know, maybe they. They parented the wrong way or it was their diet or, you know, whatever it was. And that actually is helping us to feel less out of control. Like the world is less chaotic because I just don't have to do that thing, and then I will be protected. That is all prosperity theology. Same with, like, manifesting, you know, that that is a much more secular idea.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: And so I have that chapter in the book, and I use, you know, a bunch of different examples of folks that, that employ that theology. But the fact of the matter is, I do it too. Yeah, yeah. I'm not standing over people who. I see it in myself. Every time I scroll through social media and I see a horrible tragedy and I think, oh, well, I don't. I don't live there. I don't, you know, do that. And so that's why I'm safe from this and unintentionally blaming them basically for what happened to them.
I'm engaging it that I'm reckoning with my lack of control in the world in a really cruel and theologically problematic way. And so I'm really wanting to make sure I'm preaching to myself at all times. So those are two of the filters that I use.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: I think that's great. I really think that anybody Christian influencer is the easiest label to throw out there. But anybody, I think, that's trying to point people to Jesus on the Internet needs to have some kind of filter or questions or.
I know one of them for me is like, I have to sit with. I'm not allowed to be reactive. Like, God made it very clear. He was like, you can have your feelings and you can write them down, but you have to sit on them before you put them out for the world to see. And that has been so helpful because there are things that I've typed that I will never put on the Internet. Like, they will never see the light of day. And I needed to process and get those things out, but they were not going to help anybody.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: And then there are other things that in the same. In the same vein, I've processed and typed and sat on on a couple days. Sometimes I even will send them to somebody else that I trust and be like, what do you think about this? And then I've made edits and it's worked. But, yeah, I think we have to move away from being reactive. You know, social media especially is like, okay, well, if you're silent, you're compliant in this thing. Well, that's right. Not actually true.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: You know, we have to have filters and people that we can. That can check us, basically.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. There was just someone on Twitter who's been blowing. Blowing up my notifications because they want me to speak out on something that I'm not connected to and I don't know all the information. And every time I've tried to say, you know, this isn't for me to speak out on, it's like, never good enough.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Well, that's the other thing. We can't speak to everything. Like, we can't have deep, passionate, like, yes, care about the world and the people, and we have to be involved and affected. But, like, not every single thing can be our platform. Like, it's literally not possible.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Well, it's also just not wise. It's not. I don't Know enough about every situation to speak knowledgeably without being that forest fire, you know, that spark, that metaphor that James uses about how, you know, the tongue starts this forest fire. And I think when you're speaking into things that you actually don't even know all that because you're only seeing the social media side of issues, you have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. And so to speak, based on that limited amount of knowledge is just folly. And yet you're told you are compromising if you don't speak out on this. So it's really, you have to have a really deeply rooted sense of yourself and of biblical wisdom.
Well, out there.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Well, and I think two of the things that God, I think just like spiritual gifts, like, I think there are certain things that we all have a natural, like heartbend for, and there are certain people groups and certain issues that God has, like, stirred up in me and I need to care about those things. And it's going to be different for you and everybody else. And I think that's even a way of listening to God and discerning and going, what's the message that you have for people through me on the things that you're going to tell me about? Like, I'm not going to go running around looking to just find words and add to the noise.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: So. All right, well, you have, you have three books Free of Me. Nice. And now the Cost of Control. I love the gold on the front.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: I have it right here.
Nice.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: It is.
And I want to say real quick, before I forget, that this, this was so helpful, I think, for not only people that think that they have control issues. And I would dare say if anybody thinks they don't have control issues, they probably should read it.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Like, you have control issues, you just.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Don' but it's also opened my eyes to seeing control in other places. Like, to see where, like you said, the prosperity gospel, that control is happening on a bigger, wider plane than even just in myself and in my own brain. How did you choose to write on control?
[00:23:51] Speaker B: So there are a couple reasons. One was what the pandemic exposed in the church, especially in those first, I would say six months after, after everything shut down. And, you know, the question, as a pastor, the question I'm always asking is, what is spiritually forming my people and where are they at? You know, in their discipleship to Jesus? And seeing how people responded to the pandemic showed me a lot that we were spiritually unprepared for this to happen. That everyone was responding as if we had suddenly lost control, even though we'd never had control.
So nothing in the world had actually changed. You know, big picture, like, we were just picking back up where every generation before us has left off.
We weren't special that way.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: But because of our technology, I think we had been retreating further and further into this illusion of control because we are equipped with a lot more predictability than we've ever had 200 years ago. They couldn't know what the weather was likely to be 10 days from now.
There's so many things you couldn't know in an instant what is happening on the other side of the world. And so there's a lot of ways that we do have increasing predictability, but we have not had increasing control. And unfortunately, I think we've been lulled into this delusion that we do. And because of that, I think our spiritual muscles of faith and trust have just been allowed to atrophy.
And then when there was kind of this market correction where the world became what it was already, we just saw it. Our eyes were broken and unpredictable.
It was like this terrible shock, and you could see everyone screwing around. Like, it kind of reminded me of, I don't know if your kids ever poke holes in ant hills, you know, and you step on it or whatever, and it's just this mad rush to repair it. And that was kind of what the church looked like, and really everyone looked like is this illusion of control had been shattered. And so they were rushing to rebuild it in other ways. And so that was really fascinating just to see this relationship with control that we had been discipled into and promise that we have. But then the other piece of it was examining my own control issues. You know, I. As I said before, I think I teach best when I'm teaching from my own sin. And so I kind of turned it around and was looking at myself and seeing how when everything shut down and I was home with my kids and I was homeschooling them, my daughter was 2, and it was just chaos in our home. I'm. I'm not a homeschooler. Like, I'm not good at teaching children. It's. I genuinely believe the ability to teach children is like a spiritual gift, and that is not mine. And so it was just a mess. And then we're also leading our church at the same time. I felt trapped. Our kids, ourselves, so loud. And so I thought, okay, well, I'm going to be louder then. That's how I'm going to dominate them, essentially. I wouldn't have put it that way, but. But that's what I was trying to do, was I was yelling a lot just to overpower them with my voice. That was a control response. And then on top of all of that, was leading our church through a pandemic and difficult conversations around race and a polarizing presidential election. And every decision that we made was disappointing someone. You know, we lost friendships over this. You know, people left our lives because of it. And so I started responding to that by thinking, if I could just explain to them the right scripture, you know, the scripture that we that is guiding us. If I could just explain to them, these are the wise counselors that we saw or the other pastors we talked to or, you know, the experts in our church. And all of this informed our decisions. And this is how we came to this decision. If I could just download that into their brains, then they would understand and they would change their minds about us. And that literally never worked.
Literally never worked. But what it did was create anxiety in me. You know, I would be up at night ruminating over this, rehashing, you know, all the arguments I could make. It was straining my relationship with them because I was trying to push them. You know, I was like, if I can just, you know, explain it this way.
And so I realized soon, like, this was also a control issue. You know, I was trying to use knowledge and information to control the people in my church, but also empower myself.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: And so when I saw all of this happening, I realized, okay, there's control issues in our culture. There's control issues in me, and we shouldn't control, you know, we're not in control.
And that was as far as I'd ever taken it, basically. You know, like, and so surrender, you know, let go and let God. And so that I knew I shouldn't be doing it. It wasn't helpful. But knowing that that wasn't helpful.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Like, yeah, it sounds nice, but it doesn't actually do anything.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Yeah, like, that doesn't. In the middle of it, thinking, we'll just stop. You know, that doesn't do anything.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: And so I wanted to come at it from a different angle. That would be more motivating. Like, how do I understand my relationship with control? In a way, because we struggle with control because we care about a lot of these things. You know, you care about the person in your life who is making destructive decisions, and you love them and you. You want to rescue them, essentially. You know, so much of control is because this is about things that we deeply, deeply care about for good reasons. And so just being told, well, stop. Don't do that. Like, what good is that? That's not helpful at all.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: And so what was really helpful was, was realizing it's not just that we shouldn't control. It's not just that we don't have control, but that it costs us when we try. That I can try and control something in order to fix it, but it will actually break it even more.
And it's not an if, it's a win. Yeah, It's. There's no loophole to this. And that was finally the thing that helped me. I mean, speaking of my kids, that's. That's a really sobering example. When we try to control our kids, you know, we might meet with some results in the, you know, immediate future, and to some extent we're called to disciple them and teach them and steward our authority, but we can't control them.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: And if we mistake that, we might not see the consequences for 20 years.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: But at that point, you can't do that. Yeah. The damage has been done. And so that is really, really sobering and was also very helpful.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I like this.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Stop controlling. Yes.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and it's so funny you said that you use knowledge and information, like, to control. That's not how I control people. I need, or even myself. I'm like, I need organization and I need systems because I've convinced myself that if there's a system in a way and a plan and everything's organized and it's color coded on the calendar and all, that's my way of controlling things. Because I'm like, if the system's there, everything will just fit perfectly, like a puzzle piece. And that never works either.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And you know, I messaged you because you posted about this on Instagram and I messaged you. I was like, I come bearing good news, you know, because that's. That's also. I cope with the chaos by, you know, when I lose control in one area of my life, the one area that I feel like I can control is my house. Yeah. And so I clean and I organize, and I used to really kind of rake myself over the coals for that. That, oh, you know, this is just about control and I'm not dealing with what's really going on. And I think that is true, you know, to the extent that when my kids mess up what I just cleaned and I lose my ever loving mind. Yep. That is probably showing me something about where I'm at emotionally and spiritually. But at the same time we see. So the whole arc of the book is that God doesn't give us control, but he does give us agency. It's this influence within limits. And we see a number of different forms of agency in Genesis 1 and 2 before Adam and Eve reached for control instead. And one of the forms of agency that we see is naming and ordering. You know, that is the first thing God does to, you know, order the chaos. And then he commissions Adam to do the exact same thing. And so there is something to be said for the good of naming and ordering. You know, even with the example of my kids, I was trying to out yell them. You know, I was going to control them with the volume of my voice and it didn't work. It just created more noise. Really. Kids will always contributed to, you know, the chaos, basically. But one thing that did actually help was giving my kids a schedule. That was one thing that they lacked when everything fell apart is we were just kind of running by the seat of our pants. And so at some point I wrote up a schedule and I printed it out and I hung it in the kitchen and I kind of walked through with the kids and I was like, these are the expectations of, you know, how the day is going to go. And it didn't fix everything, but it definitely helped. Yeah, in a way that just yelling at them had not.
And so I think one of the things that the difference between agency and control is why are we going to it? Are we looking for this thing to give me stability, to give me security, which it cannot do? You know, only Jesus can provide that, like on a deep soul level.
[00:34:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: And I, because, because naming and ordering does create some stability. It does create some security, but not like in my soul. And I can see that when my kids mess up what I just ordered and then my soul is not stable.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: I'm no longer saved.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
And so when we're going to these things to give us a sense of, you know, feeling secure and safe and stable and in control in a way that only Jesus can do that, that helps us to distinguish. Am I. Is this about agency or is this about control?
[00:35:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well, then I think the other. I tend to bounce, especially when I'm feeling out of control, from one extreme to the other. So I am either I have a hard time just like landing in the middle with my agency, I'm like, I'm either controlling or I go super hard to my enneagram9 and I'm like, forget it. Like, I quit. I give up. Everything. How can we find that balance of not controlling but also not going, okay, then, like I'm done?
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good question. And my first inclination is to say that we were created in the image of God. Like the agency that we feel that was instilled in us that is God given, is how we reflect the image of God. And so the idea of just saying I'm doing nothing, like who cares, whatever, is not just putting down control, but it's also putting down your agency as well.
And it's not walking in the power and influence that God has given you. And so it's maybe will feel satisfying in the moment, but it, that won't last long because you're, you're forfeiting your power essentially in that moment and you can only live that way for so long.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and especially if you are a person who likes control because you look around and go, all right, hold on, I don't like how you're doing this or whatever.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:37:05] Speaker A: I think it is, it's the tension, right? It's that tension of letting go just enough, but also using what we've given, what we've been given just enough. And I love how you have a whole section in the book about like how we control. And I imagine that it looks different in a, both unhealthy and an unhealthy manner, that it would look different for different people, personality types or maybe even like in different seasons of life.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Yes, uh huh, yeah, 100%. So. But I do think the knowledge and information one, you know, you said that that's not one that you struggle with as much, but I would be curious to kind of like dig into that a little bit.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like I'm in the hot seat now.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: Well, I'm curious because, you know, for, for me in the examples that I give and the reason, I think that one in particular is, is probably the most common way that most of us actually seek control. Because that was the ground zero way that Adam and Eve sought control, was eating from this tree of knowledge.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: And so I think we assume that more knowledge, more information is going to empower us when, when the future is uncertain. So if maybe your kid has this mysterious physical symptom and you go on the Internet, you know, and start Googling all these things and it's, why do we do this? Because it actually makes it so much worse. You know, I've never, never has, you know, my kid had something or me, you know, like a physical symptom, you Always go to cancer. You're always like, it's cancer.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: You know, hey, I'm always on the. We need to go to the hospital.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: And so you go to the Internet, you know, you bring this control issue to the Internet instead of to God, thinking that it's going to empower you with information, but what it actually does is rob you of your security even more. You're worse off than when you start.
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Right, right. Like, I thought I needed cancer, but it wasn't this one. This isn't the answer that I wanted.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Because it's. For some reason, it's never.
Well, it's. The Internet isn't an expert. And so it can't say no because usually when I go to my doctor, they're like, it's not cancer, you know.
[00:39:34] Speaker A: Right. Feel like you have a cold.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I think it's important to name that as also like a form of control, that. That we are not seeking to control other people, but we're seeking that illusion of control, that feeling of empowerment that control can give us. Does that make sense?
[00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess when I think about it that way, it's more. Because I always think of control as like an active. I'm doing something or I'm forcing something on somebody.
[00:40:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. That's what I. I wanted to. And I did. I defined. I gave kind of two different definitions for control and talked about what you just said, this idea of imposing your will on a person or a situation. And that's what we tend to think about control. But really what most of us are after is just the feeling of control.
[00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: Of feeling like you have power in a situation. And that's why the whole chapter on the illusion of control is in there is. There's been fascinating, fascinating studies about the illusion of control, which is a psychological term describing this human almost pathology where we imagine that we have control even when we don't at all. And the like funniest example of this, they've done studies of casino players who. They will roll their dice harder when they want a high number or softer for a low number. And that's so funny. Doesn't do anything.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: But it makes them feel like they're in control in that situation. And so that illusion of control can be totally disconnected from reality.
But they've also done studies showing that when you think you are in control of a situation, whether or not you are, it registers measurable benefits to your mental health. You actually do feel better. You feel less anxiety, you feel less depression, and so that's why we are always seeking after that illusion of control. The problem is it's an illusion. And so ultimately it's going to go away, it's going to be shattered, and then you'll be left to confront this reality that you've been trying to escape from. And I think that's what happened in the pandemic.
[00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's that I think there's so much. Again, in the pandemic, there was so much unknown. We have such a fear of an unknown. I can see how knowledge and information helps fill in those gaps of like, okay, well, I'm not actively, like doing something, but in my own mind.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like I'm checking the numbers. Like, here's where it spread. Like, here's how contagious it is. Here's. Here's how it's affecting us. Here's the ways that you can protect yourself. You know, there. We relied on that to help us feel empowered, even though it wasn't necessarily doing anything at all.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: Right, man. All right. I want to talk to you really quick about. You say in the book that the only thing we can control is ourselves.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: But I also want to. I want to juxtapose that with the section on body image. Yeah, I loved that. I think it's super important.
And I also like that you didn't just focus on like beauty and aesthetics, but like even our health, we try to control our bodies. Again, it's this tension, right. Of like, how do we control ourselves without over controlling ourselves.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So our, our bodies, in terms of our ability to control our bodies.
We can't control our bodies. You know, we. We can steward our bodies as a part of creation. You know, as a good part of creation. We can exercise, you know, dominion over our bodies in a sense, but we can't control our health, you know, that. That sort of a thing. Right. Now, we do have much more agency over our bodies than almost anything else in the world around us, basically. But what we do have with self control, I see that as being less about controlling your body and having much more to do with your will, what you do with your free will in situations, if that makes sense.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: And even that is like, go into my sin. Yeah, I was going to say.
Yeah. So I. The way I talk about agency and self control. So I describe agency as more of a, to use a theological term, like a form of common grace where everyone. It's part of being an image bearer of God. It's something that we all possess Inherently is this agency, but because of the fall, because of sin, even that is broken.
[00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: And so we need the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalves and to bear the fruit of self control. And so that's how I distinguish those. And I think the relationship between agency and self control is a little bit. I wouldn't press on it too hard because I'm really using agency to try and describe, like someone asked me yesterday, what's the difference between agency and free will? And I think that's a really great question. And I would describe agency as much more a combination of where our free will and our influence in the world and our partnering with God all intersect.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: And we don't really have a clear word for that in scripture. And so I'm using agency to kind of capture this category. But as I said, it's. This is a word that is not in the Bible. And so I'm using it as much as it is helpful.
But if it is not helpful, you know, you don't pick it up. It's not like a doctorate or anything like that.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. When you have. I think that was a really great self check place. And I love that at the end of every chapter you have questions for self reflection, for people to be able to sit and think. But even just that was for me a light bulb moment when you said, like, how we partner with God. And I think for Kristen, at least that's a way that I'll be able to go, am I trying to control something or am I living into my agency? Am I partnering with God or am I just like, I don't have time to listen to what you're saying because I have to go do these things and make these people do these things.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%.
[00:46:23] Speaker A: All right, well, one last question for you because the podcast is called Becoming Church, because it is all about, you know, Jesus called us to be the church, not go to a church. So how do you think that understanding control can help us to better become the church?
[00:46:42] Speaker B: So I have a chapter on autonomy as a form of control.
And we live in a hyper individualistic culture. We live in an anti authority culture. We live in a culture that highly prizes personal autonomy. And a lot of that is for a very good reason. You know, we were imbued with some autonomy, but also we've seen there's so many stories about the abusive power and what abusers will do very often is cause you to doubt your own, you know, intuition essentially and to say, don't think for yourself. You Know, don't trust yourself, don't only listen to me, you know, and so there. There is a good reason for pushing back against that absolute authority.
But unfortunately, we've swung in the opposite direction from absolute authority to absolute autonomy, where it's basically, well, no one gets to tell me what to do, you know, I know my truth. I know what is right for me.
And unfortunately, the church cannot exist that way. We don't see the church ever described that way in terms of this vision that God has is for this interwoven, interdependent community where we rely on one another and when we are accountable to one another, but how we are also better for it. You know, when you're in a healthy church community, you are protected sometimes where people who love you can come around you and say, I see this, I think this is going to hurt you. You might want to turn around and go back in the other direction. And, you know, there's so many verses too, just about how plans fail for lack of counsel, but in the presence of many counselors, they succeed. And just the folly of rejecting accountability and, you know, rejecting community. And I think that's the other really great irony is everyone wants accountability for leaders, but they don't want accountability for themselves.
And we can't have community that way. The answer is not no accountability for everyone else. It's that we all need accountability.
It just needs to be restored. And so that's actually a really important framework for thinking about community, is not that we are all these different autonomous parts, not that we are a body with 600 heads, you know, but that we are this. This interdependent community of many parts.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: Well, and it makes it easier, too, when we can find a community in a place that we feel safe and people we trust to know that when we do have to turn around and walk the other way, we're not walking alone. Like, there are other people with us to encourage us and speak into us.
Yeah, it's super important. Well, where can people find you? What is the. Where can they get the book? All of those things.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: So they can buy the book anywhere books are sold. And then I tend to be most active on, I would say Instagram. So. Sharon H. Miller on Instagram.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Awesome. And we'll link it all up. Well, Sharon, thank you so much for being here. Is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you wanted to say?
[00:50:10] Speaker B: I don't think so. We covered a lot of ground.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: We did.
We did. We will be in touch soon about outfits and lipstick and Jesus if this conversation helped you or someone else came to mind as you were listening. Sharon's book the Cost of Control will make a fantastic Christmas gift. Actually, many of the guests that I've had on this show in the past 80 something episodes have really well written books that would make great gifts. You can find all of them linked up on the Becoming Church Resource list in the show notes. Books are actually an easy way to start faith conversations that you want to have but aren't really sure how to start. I mean, sharing a podcast episode would do that too, but I know it's kind of hard to wrap this. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep Becoming the church to the people around.
[00:51:01] Speaker B: Do.
