Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Muckler Young, and this is the first conversation, the first episode that I have ever been scared to record, like borderline legit trepidation I'm talking about. You may want to grab a headphone, phones, or AirPods for this episode because we're talking about sex. We're talking about sex and my purity culture inner child is mortified that I just said that into a microphone, even though I whispered it. And that is exactly why this conversation is so important and why it matters that we talk about sex and we talk about intimacy so that we can change our view of sex, especially within the frame of Christianity. So without any further ado, grab those AirPods or put your kids out of the room for a minute and let's get into this conversation with Sheila Gregoire.
All right, Sheila Gregoire, all the way in Canada. Welcome to becoming church.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: It's great to be here.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: So excited to have you. Actually, that's a lie. I'm excited, and I'm also a little bit nervous. My kids call this nerve sighted.
That's what I told them. We're gonna get into purity, culture and sex and other things that I like. You know, the culture within me tells me that I still have to, like, whisper these words and I'm not allowed to talk about them out loud, especially into a microphone. So we'll see what happens today. I think it's gonna be good.
[00:01:45] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely it is.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: And I do have a confession for you. I have to tell you that one of your books was recommended to me once, and I can't even tell you which one it might have been. The good girl's guide to sex.
[00:01:58] Speaker B: Guide to green sex. Yeah.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Yes. But if I'm being honest, I was at a women's retreat where the conversation that was around your book recommendation was not helpful. I will just say it was one of those conversations that people maybe have been in when it comes to, like, your marriage and intimacy and relationships. And I just thought, yeah, yeah, yeah. If I read this book, all it's going to do is confirm that I am alone and I don't have a perfect marriage and, you know, any of that. And so I haven't actually read it yet, I have to tell you.
But then I did some research on you, and I started following you on Instagram, and I was really happy to see on your website that you said you are anti Christian. Pat answers, yes. So what does that mean? And what is an example, maybe, of one of those that regularly, you see often?
[00:02:49] Speaker C: Oh, I think.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: I think we have so many of.
[00:02:51] Speaker C: Them, it's almost like spiritual bypassing is what I call it, when someone's going through something really tough, and then we just say something like, well, you just.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Need to pray more.
[00:03:00] Speaker C: Or have you taken it to Jesus? Or maybe God is doing a great work in you and it's nothing that actually helps.
And we give these false promises, too.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: If you do everything right, God's going to bless you.
[00:03:16] Speaker C: If you wait for marriage, going to.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Have the most amazing sex life.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: Like, it's all these things that we.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Tell people and we don't really grapple with the reality or the messiness of people's lives.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I think I often refer to them as, like, spiritual band aids. Right. Because we think that we're, like you said, we think we're putting healing on something when meanwhile people are just bleeding out with their actual issue. It doesn't.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: It doesn't really do anything to help. And we're going to get more into the content and your research and your books. But I knew you were different when I found your fixed it for you statement.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: I love these so much. So explain to people listening what those are, and then maybe if you have a favorite example of one that you want to share.
[00:03:59] Speaker C: Oh, sure. So what I do is I take things that famous christians have said, christian authors, megachurch pastors, etcetera, and I post them on Instagram. And then I use a little red.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: Pen to cross things out and write.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: The proper words, you know, for instance, like Jimmy Evans from exo marriage, author of Marriage on the Rock. He said, God gave men the need for sex and women the gift of sex.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: And it's like, no, no, no.
[00:04:26] Speaker C: God gave both men and women, you know, the capacity to enjoy amazing sex.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:04:33] Speaker C: Like, sex is not a man thing.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: You know, or Emerson Egretsch, author of Love and respect, saying, if your husband is typical, he has a need that you don't have.
It's like, okay, well, that's a tip.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: What am I supposed to do with that then?
[00:04:46] Speaker C: Yeah. And so I try to rewrite things so they're actually healthy. But I. And I think the reason it works, I think, is because sometimes when people just do the original, because we hear this sort of thing all the time, we don't even realize how awful it is until you see it fixed. And then.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: Oh, man, I can't believe I used to believe that. Yeah.
[00:05:05] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: Yes. Or, oh, mandy, I can't believe there's actually a different way.
[00:05:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Like, that's what it was for me, was I would read, you know, the. The quotes or the things that mostly white men had said about. About sex and. About females and. And wives and sex and intimate relationships, and I just would be like, yeah. Like, that's what I've always heard. So that's what I always thought. And it wasn't until I saw your, you know, like, a teacher. The teacher and me loved it that you were, like, crossing it out with this red pen for me to start really actually thinking and going, oh, there can be another way to talk about intimacy in marriage. There can be another way to talk about even sex in marriage and how. Yeah, we have really, from the get go, taught boys one thing and girls another thing and then gone, like, hey, figure it out on your honeymoon. Well, you have multiple books that get into a lot of different areas, specifically when it comes to sex and marriage. So will you give just a quick summary for people that are listening? Maybe they don't know where to start of, like, what your different books and topics are that you cover.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:06:16] Speaker C: So I started writing back in, like, 2003, I wrote a whole bunch of marriage and parenting books, many of which.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: I have since asked to be taken out of print, because what makes me.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Different is that we decided, our team decided that we were going to do things that were research based.
So I had been writing a lot of stuff, and most of it, honestly was healthy.
But I was noticing that people who were coming to my blog and I had pretty much the largest christian marriage blog online.
It's now called baremarriage.com. we've rebranded, but anyway, and they were still having a lot of the same problems, no matter how much healthy stuff I shared. And then in 2019, I was on Twitter, I had a migraine, was procrastinating, didn't want to work, and people were having a fight as to whether they needed love or respect.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: And they were referring to Emerson Egrets.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: Bestselling book, love and respect. And I had that book, and I.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Thought, this is a great way to procrastinate.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: And so I went and got it, and I read this x chapter, and.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: It was like a nuclear bomb went.
[00:07:14] Speaker C: Off in my living room because it was so bad. And I'm. I'm facetiming my team, which was, one of them was my oldest daughter, another was a researcher that had a baby, and so she was just working for me.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: From home.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: And we just decided we had to do something about this. So we did the largest study of women's marital and sexual satisfaction that's ever been done of evangelical women's marital and sexual satisfaction. And that became our flagship book, great Sex Rescue.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: So it's based on a huge research project and we've since done another one of 7000 women for looking at how.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Purity culture impacted them for a book, she deserves better.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: We surveyed men and used those results in the Good Girls guide to great Sex and the good guys guide to great sex. Those books aren't like deconstructing stuff.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: They're more like building something healthy from the ground up.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Okay, good.
[00:08:01] Speaker C: You know?
[00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:02] Speaker C: So, yeah, so those, those are sort of the different, the four big books that we talk about now.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Awesome. She deserves better is actually on my TBR. I've got that one. I've got it. I just haven't read it yet. But it's on my TBR pile, my to be read pile because I have two daughters.
And we'll get into it. We'll get into more of, like, what we can do as parenting later. But that is one I'm very excited about. And thank you. I'm very grateful already that you wrote it.
Before we get into the details a little bit more, do you ever get pushback or feedback from these authors whose words you're, like, crossing out and fixing?
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Well, we've had four different lawsuit threats.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: None of which went anywhere because you.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: Can'T sue me for quoting you. Like, you're the one who said it. I'm sorry, but you're the one who said, it's not like you were painting.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: Them in a bad light or something.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:51] Speaker C: Or I was trying to destroy their reputation or take away speaking engagements and things. It's like, well, I'm just.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: You're allowed to critique someone.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: And so the lawsuit threats never went anywhere. But, yeah, we've had four.
We've been blacklisted from most of the really big christian radio shows, media shows, a lot of the really, really huge christian conferences because a lot of these authors are quite instrumental in them. And we knew that going in. But the books are selling really well and they're doing well and people.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: But more importantly than that, they're changing lives. And what we always say is, our.
[00:09:25] Speaker C: Prayer is that in ten years, nobody.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Needs the great sex rescue and nobody needs.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: She deserves better because we fixed it.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Oh, I love that.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: That would be my dream, is that.
[00:09:34] Speaker C: The book goes out of print because there's not a need for it anymore.
[00:09:37] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I just got goosebumps. I'm like, I can't even. That would be amazing if we could shift culture so much. And it's why having these conversations are so important, because I think there's a lot of shame that has kept a lot of us silent. You know, like, we can't talk about it or we're weird if we need to talk about it or we're broken, you know, if we need to have these conversations. That's actually, I would say a lot of people listening to our podcast probably grew up in the eighties and nineties in that evangelical purity culture. And so one of the biggest issues that I heard from people that are facing now, like, in their thirties and forties, is what you alluded to earlier, this idea of waiting for marriage. Don't have sex. Wait until your wedding night. Because then if you wait and I wait in all of the ways and all of the, you know, don't cross any of the lines, then God is going to promise to give you the most amazing sex life that you have ever, you know, seen in movies or whatever. And I think for some people, it didn't. It was great. And for a lot of people, it didn't happen.
And so what now? Then they kind of, like, are going, so what? What did happen? Right. We feel, like I said, we feel broken. We feel like we did something wrong. We feel like God is punishing us. Can you speak to that group of people that maybe are in that place right now, but are too ashamed to talk about this problem with anybody else?
[00:11:03] Speaker C: Yeah. So that's. And that's really what the great sex.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: Rescue was looking at.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: We wanted to do a really big.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: Deep dive into what do. What do couple sex lives actually look like?
[00:11:13] Speaker C: What are the things that lead to great sex, and what are the things.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: That lead to disappointing sex?
[00:11:17] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: You know, what. What has happened, and you know, what.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: We found is that there are a.
[00:11:22] Speaker C: Number of key teachings that are in the evangelical church that contribute to really bad sex.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: And I am not saying these are from the Bible.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: Okay? Yeah, not from the Bible.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: That's a really good point, though, Sheila, because I think most people assume that they are.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:37] Speaker C: They're not from the Bible, but they are really common.
[00:11:41] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:11:41] Speaker C: And we measured a whole bunch of.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: Different beliefs, and we were able to.
[00:11:45] Speaker C: Identify four that we talked about in the great sex rescue. There's actually two others, but they. Anyway, we talked about that. We're talking about those in our marriage book. That's coming up. But there's four biggest beliefs about sex that really hurt. And if you can summarize them, kind of like Lord of the Rings, like.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: There'S the one ring that rules them all.
[00:12:05] Speaker C: Like, it would be that idea that if your husband is typical, he has.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: A need that you don't have. Like, that sex is something for men. And that's what all of these teachings have in common. And when women enter marriage believing them, they're less likely to be orgasmic, they're more likely to have trouble with arousal, they're more likely to have sexual pain.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: Their libido is more likely to tanken, and then you can get into dynamics which make all of those things worse.
[00:12:29] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: And I think. Do you think that's why, too? I know a common thing that said, which I do think is true, is that sex for women happens, like, in the brain first.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And that is what we found, because.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: These beliefs impact you.
[00:12:42] Speaker C: So, for instance, okay, if a wife enters marriage believing a wife is obligated.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: To give her husband sex when he wants it, and 39% of evangelical women.
[00:12:52] Speaker C: Said that was true, 41% reported being taught it.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: So if you were taught it, pretty much believed it.
[00:12:57] Speaker C: Right. So a wife is obligated to give her husband sex. Well, if she believes that, her chance of experiencing sexual pain goes up to.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Almost the same statistical effect as if she'd been abused.
[00:13:11] Speaker C: Okay. Because our bodies interpret obligation as trauma.
[00:13:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: And evangelical women suffer from sexual pain.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: Disorders at about two and a half times the rate of the general population.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: So 23% of evangelical women suffer from.
[00:13:24] Speaker C: Sexual pain, and no one talks about it. Like, everybody knows, knows what erectile dysfunction is. Right.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:30] Speaker C: You know, but if I'm, if I'm talking to a big audience and I say, put up your hand, if you've.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: Ever heard the word vaginismus, very few people raise their hand.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Right. But I guarantee 23%, many of them are experiencing it. Right?
[00:13:41] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: And that's not related to childbirth.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: So lots of women also, like, 35% of women have pain after childbirth. But this is, like, even before that, you know, you experience sexual pain.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: Do you think some of this is, you know, now I'm, like, going into the perimenopausal, hormonal, all of that and realizing, like, there's just not medical research and science and, like there is for men. Do you think some of this, you know, not maybe the low number of women who are diagnosed with vaginismus or other things, do you think it's more so that they're not speaking up about it. Or do you think there is an element, too, of, like, our doctors don't know what to do or how to diagnose it, and so they just kind of go, oh, let's blame it on childbirth?
[00:14:25] Speaker C: I think. Well, I mean, they don't blame vaginism on childbirth because that's usually. Usually precedes childbirth, although you can have secondary vaginismus after childbirth if you have some birth trauma that can be quite common, too. But. So I think a lot of it is that there isn't a lot of.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Medical research, but it's also how we've normalized pain.
[00:14:44] Speaker C: And let me give you an example.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: So for our book, great sex rescue, we read 13 of the best selling sex and marriage books in evangelicalism to.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: See how they, you know, what messages they incorporated and to see how they stacked up on our rubric of healthy sexuality.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: We also looked at the best selling secular marriage book, which was John Gottman.
[00:15:02] Speaker C: Seven principles for making marriage work.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:04] Speaker C: The secular book scored 47 out of 48. On our healthy sexuality rubric, love and respect scored zero. Literally zero. You could not have done worse. Okay. Every man's battle scored nine out of 48 for women only. Scored eleven out of 48 like these. It's bad.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: All right.
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:20] Speaker C: But let me tell you about an anecdote from Tim Keller's the meaning of marriage.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:15:24] Speaker C: Which. Which kind of goes to the sexual pain thing.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: So he's talking about how early in.
[00:15:29] Speaker C: Their marriage he and his wife, Kathy, you know, we're having troubles with sex. And he said, when we were finished.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: If I asked her how it was.
[00:15:37] Speaker C: And she said it hurt, I would.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Be devastated, and she would be, too.
[00:15:42] Speaker C: And so we learned how, you know.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: To go into sex thinking about what we can give rather than what we.
[00:15:49] Speaker C: Can get, et cetera, et cetera. And he went on for this.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Anyway, I talked to so many women, our interviews and focus groups, who read.
[00:15:56] Speaker C: That anecdote and thought, I guess sexual pain is normal, because what he was portraying was she didn't tell him that it hurt until after intercourse.
[00:16:09] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: So it's not like she stopped him.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:16:12] Speaker C: She just told him after when he.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: Asked, and then they still kept having sex.
[00:16:18] Speaker C: He never addressed the fact that sex.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Is not supposed to hurt, that if it does hurt, we have to get.
[00:16:23] Speaker C: To the bottom of it, that we.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Shouldn'T be having sex. That hurts. And do I believe that Tim Keller.
[00:16:29] Speaker C: Meant to do that? No. But I don't think he knew what vaginismus was.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: And so therefore, he wasn't qualified to write that book. And that's part of the problem, is that we have people writing our books who are not qualified, who haven't done the work, who haven't done the research.
[00:16:43] Speaker C: The only thing they know about sex is their own experience with their wife.
[00:16:46] Speaker D: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: You know, and that anecdote, normalized sexual pain.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: Wow. It's so crazy to think that we can write or say a thing, right. With, like, one intention, not realizing the very different message that it's actually giving out to other people.
[00:17:06] Speaker C: Yeah. And I'm not saying he meant that or that that's the reason, because not everyone's read that book. I'm just saying that's.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: That's a good example of what is in our literature.
[00:17:13] Speaker C: Or. Or when books talk about how it is.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: It is a sin to withhold.
Right.
[00:17:18] Speaker C: And how love and respect tells women.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: You will never understand how great his need is. His need for sex is greater than.
[00:17:25] Speaker C: Your need for anything else.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: And so woman reads that and she's experiencing pain.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: What she's thinking is, yes, but his need is greater. And I have to let myself feel.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: Pain so that he can feel pleasure, because he needs this so much.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: Because that's what everything is saying.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: You will never understand how much he needs it. You will never understand. His need is so great. And so no matter what you're going through, you're told he must need this.
[00:17:50] Speaker C: Even more, because this is what our resources tell us over and over again.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: This is what we're supposed to do as a wife. This is our job. I think also there's that underlying. Not just purity culture, but women who grew up in the evangelical church also have this idea of, like, put your needs aside for the needs of other people. So I think there's, that foundation is already there underneath what we then perceive to be our wifely duties. So, yeah, it's like, well, I'm being sinful if I. Or prideful if I choose to speak up for myself or want pleasure myself or need to take care of this pain.
Sheila, I feel like we need to address before we move on, because we kind of brushed over it, and I kept just picturing someone listening, a woman listening right now, going, no, please go back to that. Like, having pain and sex is not normal, nor do I have to endure this if someone is listening right now. And maybe this is not a conversation that they've had in their marriage. Maybe this is not a conversation they've had with anyone.
As a pastor, I hear lots and lots of stories of different women and all kinds of different experiences. And so I know that there are women who feel abused in their marriages, and their husbands have no idea because it is. That idea of this is so painful and this is so awful that sometimes they even get to the point of, like, I have to disassociate in order to get through this, which is trauma.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: What if someone is listening, going, that is me.
What can they do?
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Okay, I want to address a couple of different scenarios. First of all, if you are experiencing.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Pain and people say, well, it's normal.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: For it to hurt the first time.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: It actually isn't.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: The reason sex hurts the first time.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Is usually because we're having sex for.
[00:19:39] Speaker C: The first time without being aroused. If women were properly aroused, there might.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Be a slight stinging, you might be stretching, but it. It wouldn't be pain.
[00:19:48] Speaker C: And so we need to stop teaching.
[00:19:50] Speaker B: Women, well, yeah, it hurts the first.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: Time, because then if women experience excruciating.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Pain, they think this is what everyone was talking about.
[00:19:56] Speaker C: Right. And so I think instead we need.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: To say, do not have sex until you're aroused.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Like, the goal on the wedding night is not to have intercourse. The goal is to get comfortable naked. The goal is to figure out arousal and even orgasm before you try intercourse.
[00:20:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: And then only when you're aroused and.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Comfortable do you do that. And it might take a couple of.
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Days, it might take a couple of weeks or even months.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: But if you do it in that order, you're gonna set yourself up for great sex, and you're not gonna have to go back and fix things.
I would say, if you are currently.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Experiencing pain, please see a pelvic floor physiotherapist. And don't keep doing things which cause.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: You pain, because you are teaching your body, this hurts.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: This is something that I don't want, and that's actually gonna contribute to the.
[00:20:41] Speaker C: Involuntary muscle spasms that you're going through.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: So the more that you have sex when it hurts, the more your body.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: Will try to stop that from happening involuntarily.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: You're not doing it. Like, don't blame yourself. You're not, like, rejecting your husband, or you're not rejecting sex. This is just your body trying to protect you.
[00:21:00] Speaker C: And so please see a pelvic floor physiotherapist. Tell your husband, like, do not, don't keep doing that.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: I think if you're at the point.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: Where sex feels traumatizing and dehumanizing, which is very common, remember that we're also given the message you need to have.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Frequent sex with your husband to keep.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: Him from watching pornography or to keep him from lusting.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: You need to keep his cupful because he's. There's so many temptations out in the world, and you can't let him go.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: Out in the world without satisfying him, or you're opening him up to Satan. And all this stuff that we're taught, you know.
[00:21:31] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:21:32] Speaker C: Like every man's battle, which sold 4.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Million copies, it called women the methadone for their husband's sex addiction.
[00:21:39] Speaker C: So, you know, when he.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: When he is tempted by other things.
[00:21:44] Speaker C: You need to give him sex so that he isn't tempted, which is a terrible. A terrible thing to say.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:49] Speaker C: So there's all these traumatizing messages that we're getting about sex.
And if sex is traumatizing, then it's not sex.
[00:21:58] Speaker D: That's good. Yeah.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Because sex biblically is something which is.
[00:22:02] Speaker C: Mutual for both of you.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: We get that from first corinthians seven. It's pleasurable for both.
[00:22:08] Speaker C: We get that from song of Solomon.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: She says more words than he does.
[00:22:11] Speaker C: And she's having a good time, and it's intimate. You know, genesis four, verse one, describes.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: Sex as a deep knowing.
[00:22:19] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: So it's something intimate, mutual, and pleasurable for both. If you are being used, if you end up after sex feeling used, feeling shame, and roughly 20% of women do, then sex is not. Intercourse is not sex in your marriage.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Okay. And there's a lot of women, like.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: We'Re always told, oh, sex makes you feel so close. No, that's actually not true.
[00:22:45] Speaker C: For a lot of women, having intercourse makes you feel more distant.
And so we need to get to.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: The root of the issue, because you matter.
You really matter.
[00:22:57] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:22:59] Speaker B: And sex was meant for you as well.
[00:23:01] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: That is, I think, very freeing, Sheila. I'm just, like, praying for the women that are hearing this and listening right now, and I just am hoping this stuff is just breaking off of them. And I would say, too, if you feel like you can't talk to your husband about it, like therapy, find a therapist and go talk to a therapist together, and that also will help your marriage.
What about mentally, for the people that maybe are looking around or looking side to side? Right. And they're like, okay, well, these people have a seemingly perfect marriage or relationship or whatever.
What can they do to keep themselves maybe from getting sucked into, like, jealousy of other people or bitterness towards their partner while they're maybe working on creating a sex life or an intimacy that they do desire to have.
[00:23:51] Speaker C: Well, I think the thing to remember is that great sex flows out of a great marriage.
A great marriage does not flow out of great sex.
Great sex can certainly help your marriage. It does, but it can't create it all on its own.
[00:24:06] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: So a great marriage really is a.
[00:24:07] Speaker C: Prerequisite for a good sex life. And we need to start thinking of sex as the physical expression of everything we are together. So, you know, if you've got some.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Major issues in your marriage, sex is.
[00:24:18] Speaker C: Not going to fix it.
[00:24:19] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: If you already have a lot of.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Goodwill and you have, like, one issue.
[00:24:23] Speaker C: You'Re working on, but you are working on it, you know, sex can bring.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: The tension level down, certainly, and make.
[00:24:28] Speaker C: It easier to work on that, but.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: It'S not going to fix things all on its own.
[00:24:32] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:24:32] Speaker C: And I think we put too much on sex. We also kind of expect that sex.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Should look the same no matter what.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: So here's an example.
There's a lot of books in the christian world that tell women, like, in the postpartum phase.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: So when you can't have intercourse, make sure that you give him sexual favors to the same frequency as you were.
[00:24:51] Speaker C: Having sex before you were pregnant, because that's what he needs.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: So in the most exhausting stage of a woman's life, when her body has literally been ripped apart, when she's dealing.
[00:25:04] Speaker C: With being a new mom, when her.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Breasts are leaking, when her vagina is still leaking, she is being told he needs to have the same sex life as he did before.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Insane.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: It is insane. And I guess what I want to say is sex can reflect your real life.
You know, I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. Oh, my gosh.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: We have little kids now. We're going to lose the spark. So we need to make sure that we're having sex as often as we did before.
[00:25:32] Speaker C: You know, it's okay to just enjoy.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Being parents together and have sex when.
[00:25:36] Speaker C: You have energy and certainly, yeah, prioritize it.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: But if you're not having sex, like.
[00:25:39] Speaker C: Five times a week anymore, don't feel like a failure.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: Like, if it's like once a week, that's okay for a time.
[00:25:46] Speaker C: And you know what? You'll get to a point where it's.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: More frequent again, when you're sleeping more.
[00:25:50] Speaker C: Than like, 3 hours at a stretch. Like, that's okay.
And I don't think we're giving ourselves.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Enough permission for that.
[00:25:58] Speaker D: I. Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: I like the idea of timeframe, too. That. Yeah. In a season of life when hormones are raging or job stress, or people are working different hours, like, yeah, sometimes. Back to your point about sometimes sex can make us less close.
I think when we try to force it and force the frequency in the midst of just life.
[00:26:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: That's when it becomes a task and a to do, and it's like, oh, my gosh, okay, I have to do the dishes and take the kids to piano, and then I have to have sex, and then I have to do the thing. And that kind of defeats the purpose.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: And I think even by focusing on.
[00:26:36] Speaker C: Frequency, we're focusing on the wrong thing. So if most christian resources or when pastors are giving talks about sex, the.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Problem that they're trying to fix is frequency.
[00:26:48] Speaker C: And what they usually mean by that.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Is women's low desire.
[00:26:51] Speaker C: Now, in a lot of marriages, women.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Do not have low desire. Often men do. So in 56% of marriages, we found.
[00:26:59] Speaker C: That the guy has the higher sex drive.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: But in 19% she does, and in.
[00:27:03] Speaker C: 23%, it's pretty much shared. So this idea that it's always him with a higher sex drive is simply not true.
But if you read most things, it's like, okay, how can we get her.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: To have more sex? As if having more sex is the answer.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: But.
[00:27:20] Speaker B: And the problem. But what we found is that frequency is not the problem. Frequency is the symptom of something.
[00:27:27] Speaker C: And I'm going to list five things. Okay, everyone, listen. I'm going to list five things right now. When she is frequently reaching orgasm, when.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: They have high marital satisfaction, when she feels emotionally close during sex so she doesn't feel used or anything, she's not dissociating, when there's no porn use in the marriage, and when there's no sexual.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: Dysfunction, frequency takes care of itself.
Okay, so if sex isn't happening, the solution is not to say, how can.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: We have more sex? The solution is to say, why is sex not happening?
[00:27:57] Speaker D: That's good.
[00:27:57] Speaker C: Like, what has happened to our libido and what is going on in the marriage? You know, is she doing all of.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: The mental load and all of the.
[00:28:04] Speaker C: Housework, so she's just exhausted.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:28:06] Speaker C: Like, let's address that.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Does she not feel emotionally connected during.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: Sex because of all these really terrible things she was taught about sex growing up?
[00:28:14] Speaker B: And she can't get over that, you.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: Know, read the great sex rescue. Okay. Yeah.
And all. Everything I'm saying is in the great sex rescue as well. But, like, let's go to the root of it. Is she not frequently orgasming? You know, we have a 47 point orgasm gap. Among evangelical couples.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: What is that? What do you mean?
[00:28:32] Speaker B: 40%, 95% of men almost always are.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: Always reach orgasm in a given sexual, compared to just 48% of women.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: Why should she want sex if it's not going to be good for her?
[00:28:44] Speaker A: Right?
[00:28:46] Speaker C: Okay, so, like, we need to learn how to prioritize her orgasm, too.
[00:28:50] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Like, again, something we were taught.
[00:28:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Jimmy Evans in this book, marriage on the rock, even told men, look, don't expect her to orgasm. Like, okay, excuse me, but he didn't say that.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: He said, don't expect a mountaintop experience.
[00:29:03] Speaker C: For her very often. And it's like, um, no, no. Like, 48% of women do so know. This is.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: This is what we should be aiming for.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Yeah. My gosh, I can just. Your books are going to go flying off the shelf because people are going to need, like, how do I bring this up in conversation and research and practicals and all of that?
Before we get into some of your questions from Instagram, I want to remind you to follow along with us on social media so that you also can be part of future conversations. Conversations. Now, the juiciest or most behind the scenes stuff where I put the question boxes and really bring you along is going to be on my account. You can find meristanmacher Young, but also be sure to follow along with mosaic, Osaic, CLT so that you can be updated on events and other resources that we have related to the topics that we cover in these different episodes. For example, we are hosting a couples night this fall for anyone wanting to invest in their relationship, and it would be so fun to get to meet some of you there. So head on over, follow us on social media. And now here's the rest of my conversation with Sheila.
Well, I want to get into a couple questions. Sheila, I feel like we kind of laid a baseline here. I reached out on Instagram, and I said, hey, y'all love Sheila. I'm having her on the podcast. What are some questions? And so I kind of broke them into two categories. I have some questions for you on people who want to raise their kids in a healthy, different way, and then a couple questions on people who are basically trying to parent their inner child out of purity culture. So we'll start with the kid questions. And a big one seemed to be, how do we teach ourselves not to be reactive when our daughters do something? So, like, for example, I'll give a personal story here.
I'm a pastor, so on Sundays, I usually go to church before my family. I gotta be there early my husband brings my girls, and they meet me there. And there was a home on Sunday where my oldest, she's ten, came in full on crop top, stomach just midriff a, showing all kinds of makeup, and she's creative and she's artsy, and we love it. But at church, my first reaction was like, why are you wearing that? Why are you dressed this way? And I accidentally, I think, shamed her. Not in front of everyone, but I, like, bent down to her ear, and I was like, we don't wear this to church, you know, but I don't want to be that way. So how do. What do we do when we find ourselves in these situations?
[00:31:41] Speaker C: Yeah. So the problem with the clothing issue is that we did find in our survey of 7000 women for a book, she deserves better, that the modesty message is one of the most harmful that we can give to girls. So when girls grow up believing that they are at least partially responsible for boys sin, they are 67% more likely to marry abusers.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:32:02] Speaker C: Okay. They're 52.
[00:32:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: They're 52% more likely to experience sexual pain. It's. It's really, really bad. And so.
But it doesn't mean that we can't.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Talk to girls about what to wear. And she deserves better.
[00:32:15] Speaker C: At the end of each chapter, we have role playing ideas, you know, conversations, just scenarios that you can talk to your daughter about.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: And so we do walk through how.
[00:32:24] Speaker C: To talk about but clothing. But, you know, if you just focus on the appropriateness of clothing, like, it is totally appropriate to not wear a midriff thing to church right now, that's fine. But the main thing is that it's.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Not about modesty in the way that.
[00:32:38] Speaker C: We were taught, because we were basically.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Taught that girls are sin management tools for boys. So the way that we prevent boys from sinning is that girls take on that responsibility.
They do it through what they wear.
[00:32:51] Speaker C: They do it because in a makeup.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Situation, they're the ones who are supposed to be the breaks, because boys can't help themselves.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: And so we are the ones who.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Bear the responsibility for boys. And that's simply untrue. And that's a very harmful message to give to both boys and girls.
[00:33:08] Speaker C: And so if you making the conversation about appropriateness, which is something that boys need to be taught, too, like, there's certain things that guys, you know, do not wear that t shirt to church. That's just not appropriate. Like, you know, do not wear shorts hanging down to church. Like, we're gonna show respect.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: That's fine.
[00:33:28] Speaker C: And there's things that it's totally fine to wear at the beach or the.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: Boardwalk that we wouldn't wear, you know, out to dinner. And that's okay.
[00:33:36] Speaker C: And that's not based on modesty. It's just like, what is appropriate for the situation.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: So what about for the situations? Maybe we catch ourself, right? Like, we haven't slowed down enough to think or have the appropriate conversation. And so we find ourselves to be reactive and maybe even accidentally shaming and saying things that are not at all what we want to project. What do we do? Like it when it's too late. And we've already said, we've already. The purity culture has already spoken from the back of our brains.
[00:34:05] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, just talk to your daughter about it. Say, you know what? When I grew up, I was taught all of this stuff and it makes me really. It makes me scared for you. And I don't want to put that on you.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:34:17] Speaker C: You know, and I'm sorry if I ever do.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Like, just tell them. Like, kids get it and they love hearing that about you anyway, that's like.
[00:34:23] Speaker C: Oh, I haven't said into my mom, it's great. Yeah.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: So just tell them.
[00:34:27] Speaker C: Tell them some of the stories about when you were growing up. Yeah.
[00:34:30] Speaker B: Tell them what you were taught in youth group and tell them how it made you feel. And then talk to them about, like, how can we do this better?
[00:34:35] Speaker C: Because, you know, we do. We do. We. Everybody.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: Well, not everybody, but lots of girls want to be pretty, and that's fine. But what does it mean to be pretty? Like, how do we feel pretty? How do we express ourselves?
[00:34:47] Speaker C: You know, what do people.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: What do you want people to think when they look at you? Because first impressions do matter.
[00:34:51] Speaker C: They matter. In job interviews, they matter, you know.
[00:34:54] Speaker B: In terms of what.
[00:34:54] Speaker C: What friend group you want to hang out with. And it's perfectly fine to talk about.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: It in that way, but not in.
[00:35:01] Speaker C: A way about, hey, you're going to.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Cause him to sin or lust or put yourself in danger.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: I love the idea of bringing them in, too. I'm just already thinking about what my ten year old would say to her ways to join into this conversation. I'm going to do that. I'm intrigued now.
Well, talking about girls specifically, first, our daughters, one mom asked. She said, how do we teach our daughters to view sex in a godly but not terrifying and forbidden way? Like, in this hyper sexual culture that they're in, if not purity culture?
What?
[00:35:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:37] Speaker B: And that's.
[00:35:37] Speaker C: That is a hard it's. It's a hard thing to walk through. Here's. Here's some encouragement. We measured a whole lot of different ways of wording how we think about sex, and positive messages do not have negative repercussions.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: So if you give kids a positive.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Message, something like, you know, sex is meant to be awesome when you're in a committed relationship with someone you love, okay, that is. That does not have any negative repercussions. But if you say to your daughter.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: If you have sex before marriage, then you know, you'll never experience the kind.
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Of intimacy that God wants for you. That has really negative messages even if.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: You wait for marriage.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Right?
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Like, it doesn't just have negative messages if you had sex before marriage.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: It has negative messages even if you wait for marriage.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Explain that.
[00:36:25] Speaker C: Well, we'd have to do a whole lot of.
We have theories that we haven't proved at this because we'd have to do a lot more groups and interviews about it. But I think the point is that it makes sex into something threatening.
[00:36:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:36:39] Speaker C: That can. That can affect your entire identity and can affect your entire future.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: And so sex takes on a heaviness rather than, you know, something which is.
[00:36:49] Speaker C: Just appropriate in the right time. And I think it's perfectly fine to say to your kids, you know what? What?
[00:36:55] Speaker B: It is against the law for people.
[00:36:57] Speaker C: Under 16 to have sex.
[00:36:59] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:37:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:00] Speaker C: And yes, it's not against the law for people under 16 to have sex with each other, but that's because we can't really prosecute that. But the state still considers you a.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Child because you are one, and children.
[00:37:09] Speaker C: Should not be having sex.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:12] Speaker C: And here is why children should not be having sex. Because.
[00:37:14] Speaker B: And tell them this.
[00:37:15] Speaker C: Like, when I was 14, I was.
[00:37:18] Speaker B: With the guy that I thought I.
[00:37:19] Speaker C: Was going to marry. I, like, I just loved him because I wanted to be in love. And now if I were to show.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: You a picture of him, and if.
[00:37:26] Speaker C: I were to show you a picture.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Of where he's at now in his.
[00:37:29] Speaker C: Life, you would be so embarrassed for me. Okay.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: Because this is what you think when you're 14.
[00:37:35] Speaker C: And I've been there. I thought it.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: And what you don't want to do is get yourself into a situation which is way more serious than you wanted to be in.
[00:37:44] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:37:44] Speaker C: You know, there's reason, like, waiting. Waiting has a lot of benefits for.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Everybody, and it does. And you can tell them what the.
[00:37:53] Speaker C: Benefits are without telling them.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: You're going to mess up your entire life. You're going to mess up your identity.
[00:37:59] Speaker C: Like, it's kind of like how we, we put girls identity in being a virgin.
[00:38:04] Speaker B: And virginity is not biblical. There is no biblical thing that you.
[00:38:10] Speaker C: Need to be a virgin.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: The biblical thing is chastity.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: And you can practice chastity whether you are a virgin or not, whether you.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: Are married or not.
[00:38:19] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:20] Speaker C: Everybody should be practicing chastity. Chastity doesn't mean you don't have sex.
[00:38:23] Speaker B: Chastity means that you submit your sex life to God.
[00:38:26] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: And there's a lot of married people that are not chaste because, you know.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: They'Re watching porn or they're dehumanizing each other or whatever.
[00:38:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: And there's a lot of non virgins.
[00:38:38] Speaker C: Who are single, who are chaste.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: Like, they're submitting themselves to God now. So when we elevate virginity, it's like one, you know, doing something or having something done to you, which is even more horrifying, can change your entire identity before God.
[00:38:53] Speaker C: And it's just not true.
[00:38:54] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: That is also another, I think, a big foundational belief lie that a lot of people that grew up with parody culture maybe couldn't even vocalize. But there was that underlying message.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: Right?
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Like, yeah, we're gonna. In this moral hierarchy that we tend to do in evangelicalism and Christianity, it's like, oh, well, the virgins definitely are up here. Better people than the people who are not.
Do you talk about. And she deserves better how to talk to our kids about sex. So it's not like, for me, the only way I can explain it is it was like the day before my wedding. Up until the day before my wedding, sex was, like, forbidden. And it was a bad and scary. And then my wedding night was like, flip the switch. And literally the next morning, like, I'm talking within, like 8 hours, I was supposed to have gone from bad, bad, bad, forbidden to like, was it amazing? Was it amazing? Did you love it? Was it like the best thing of your life? Was it a party? And I'm like, wait, it doesn't work that way, you know?
[00:39:55] Speaker C: Yeah, no, exactly.
And yes, our book does go through all of this and talks a lot about sex ed and what kids need to know when and what our survey found about that, too, because one of.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: The problems, I think, in purity culture is that we replaced sex ed with the message, just don't do it.
[00:40:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:40:15] Speaker C: And so a lot of women know nothing about their body. So about 30% of women did not know the female orgasm existed until after they were adults or even after they were married.
And that's a scary thing.
[00:40:28] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:40:29] Speaker C: Because then, you know, you don't. You don't even know what to expect.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: Or that it's even supposed to feel good for you.
[00:40:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: More men actually knew that the female.
[00:40:40] Speaker C: Orgasm existed than women at the point they married. Mostly because of the porno. The pornography.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:40:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's so many women who get.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Married not knowing basic anatomical things, not understanding how their cycle works, not understanding.
[00:41:00] Speaker C: And when you don't know these things, we don't know words, you can't talk about it.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: And so teaching girls, you know, words for things, letting girls know what their.
[00:41:09] Speaker C: Body parts are, letting them understand, like, why.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: What your cycle is, what a fertile.
[00:41:14] Speaker C: Window is, not because you're telling them they can't get pregnant at other times, but, like, so, just so they understand how their bodies work actually really empowers girls, and it gives them tremendous self esteem.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: And self esteem is so heavily correlated towards not marrying an abuser.
[00:41:31] Speaker C: Like, the more kids know about their.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Bodies, the less likely they are to.
[00:41:35] Speaker C: Be sexually assaulted or married an abuser. So it's really quite protective.
And yet we just aren't giving those messages. And one of the big messages we're not giving is what consent is, because.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: The church largely doesn't talk about it because, well, they're not supposed to be.
[00:41:53] Speaker C: Having sex anyway, so why talk about consent?
[00:41:55] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:41:56] Speaker C: But there's a lot.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: A lot of girls who were date.
[00:41:59] Speaker C: Raped without recognizing that it was rape until years later.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: And even a lot of the anecdotes, this is what's horrifying, is a lot of the anecdotes that are in our christian books for teen girls actually are date rape, and they're not named as such.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: Like, there's one very, very, very big book where the woman describes how when she was 15, her boyfriend started forcing.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: His advances on her, and she didn't.
[00:42:25] Speaker C: Like it, and she told him to stop, and she felt like a deer in the headlights. But his actions, how'd she put it? Like, they moved her or they had an effect on her and she found herself giving in. But that is the story of date rape with arousal, non concordance.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:41] Speaker C: By which I mean that her body got aroused when her mind didn't want to, but because her body got aroused.
[00:42:46] Speaker B: She assumed she wanted it.
[00:42:48] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: And she blamed herself for it. And she tells this story all the time, is this is when I lost my purity. I don't want other girls to lose their purity.
[00:42:55] Speaker C: And it's like, no, honey, you were raped.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Right. You were raped, and just because your body had a physical reaction doesn't mean that then you changed your mind to accept it or even to want it.
[00:43:06] Speaker C: Right, exactly. But.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: But what we found is that when girls are date raped and they blamed themselves, they often feel, I have no right to say no anymore, because my whole reason for saying no was to be a virgin.
[00:43:18] Speaker C: And now that I'm not a virgin, then what's the point? And so they get themselves into worse and worse situations.
[00:43:27] Speaker A: I think, too, Sheila, we can start to have these conversations. Like, before we start to have these conversations, one of the things that. I'll give you an example. One of the things that I'm trying to really instill in both of my daughters is that they were allowed to change their minds because I, without them knowing. But, like, I can, I fast forward right into their teen years, into situations where maybe they agree to do something with somebody else. Maybe they agree and they think they want to, like, get themselves into a sexual situation and then get into it and go, no, I actually don't want to do this anymore.
And so I am, from a young, young age, trying to teach them, like, you're allowed to change your mind, and we respect other people's.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:09] Speaker C: No.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: I mean, even it sounds so silly and not related, but to me, it's so very related. We were at Disney World last year, and my eight year old thought she wanted to go on the tower of terror, you know, and it wasn't the drops that scared her. But we went in, and there was a screen that had, like, ghosts coming on the screen. And so we kept walking through, and my husband was like, you can be brave and you can do it. And the whole time, I just had this sense of, like, she really doesn't want to. And so right before we stepped onto the ride, we asked the lady, we were like, we're not going to see ghosts on here, right? And she was like, no, yeah, you are. And my eight year old just turned and looked at me, and I said, you're allowed to change your mind. And she was like, okay, I don't want to do this anymore. And so I told her very explicitly, I was like, I respect your no, and I honor your no. And even though we made it all the way through the line, we're walking out like, we're not doing this because I just want to instill that within her, her self esteem, her advocacy, you know? I think, yes, that's what I'm saying. Like, we can have these conversations before they're about sex so that once they are, there's already this foundation of, like, you matter and you're important and you're allowed to see your value and take care of what you need, you know?
[00:45:24] Speaker C: Yeah, no, exactly. Or if you have, you know, if I. You have multiple kids and let's say the boy is wrestling with your daughter or tickling your daughter and she says no.
[00:45:33] Speaker B: Like, telling him no. She said no.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:45:36] Speaker C: Like, yeah, those, those kinds of, those.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Kinds of things are really important to.
[00:45:40] Speaker C: Do and vice versa.
[00:45:41] Speaker B: If the boy, the girl is doing it to the boy. Yeah, of course.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:45] Speaker A: One of the questions Sarah wants to know about talking to boys about sex before marriage. She said, it's harder to talk to my boys than it is to talk to my girls. She was like, why is that? And what do I, what do I even say to that?
[00:45:55] Speaker C: Them, you know, I think just, just what's really important for boys to understand.
[00:45:59] Speaker B: Is that girls are more vulnerable.
They just are. Girls are more vulnerable in a sexual situation than you are.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:46:07] Speaker C: They're the ones who get pregnant.
You know, they're the ones who can experience pain. They're just literally more vulnerable.
[00:46:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:46:14] Speaker C: And so it is your responsibility to stop before you get to a place where it's going to be hard for you to stop.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:46:22] Speaker C: You know, and it's okay for it to be hard for you to stop.
[00:46:25] Speaker B: But you still have to stop.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:46:28] Speaker C: And, and so you need to bear that responsibility and not put it on her.
That's good thing. Yeah. Like, that's what, that's a being. That's what being Christ like is like. You don't put anyone in a situation that isn't good for them.
[00:46:42] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: And you don't use someone for your own gratification. You just don't have.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:48] Speaker C: You know, and I think that's, that's important because here's the other issue. Okay. When you really love someone, you know, you want to make out because it's.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: A way of expressing how you feel about them. That's totally normal.
[00:47:00] Speaker C: You know, when you're in love, when you're engaged, etcetera, it's just not healthy.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: When you're too young.
[00:47:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:47:08] Speaker C: And I'm not saying that you should tell your kids they shouldn't date because we actually found that rules are bad.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Rules tend to backfire.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Yeah. They just give something for them to buck up against.
[00:47:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: The best situation is if a girl.
[00:47:22] Speaker C: Is allowed to date but chooses not to. But this is something that a parent can't you can't do anything about it, right. Cause it's her choice, but. So it's like giving them the freedom.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: But then at the same time, boosting their self esteem so much that they.
[00:47:33] Speaker C: Look around and they're like, these guys are pathetic.
Because most 15 year old boys really aren't that, you know, date worthy.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: But when you're older, it is different. And it's normal to want to express.
[00:47:46] Speaker C: Yourself that way, but just make sure.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: That you're honoring the person you're with. Make sure you're being respectful. It's not. You don't need to feel ashamed of your feelings, but there's a time and place for everything.
[00:47:56] Speaker C: And God does ask us, you know.
[00:47:58] Speaker B: To submit our feelings to him and in a way that we can honor and respect other people.
[00:48:03] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: And to take responsibility, like you said, for our own actions and not going, no. When you say no, then I'm going to stop. Then we'll stop. No, we're going to be responsible for our own choices.
[00:48:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: Well, Sheila, a couple questions for moving away from parenting to maybe parenting our inner child. Our inner child as adults trying to do some repair here.
There were multiple women that were like, what do I do? Basically, what's a quick answer? Maybe they can keep in their back pocket as grown adult women with agency who are allowed to wear what they want to wear and make the choices that they make, but then maybe are faced with a comment from someone trying to shame them or kind of like, minimize them, put them in a box, kind of push them down. What. How do we respond then?
[00:48:57] Speaker C: You know, you're an adult, and you.
[00:49:00] Speaker B: Get to choose who you hang out with and where you hang out.
[00:49:03] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:49:04] Speaker C: Okay. And a lot of us are in.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Church cultures that just aren't healthy.
And if that's you, there are church cultures that are healthy. There's really good churches out there, but there's also really bad ones.
[00:49:17] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: And a lot of us have stayed in bad ones because.
[00:49:21] Speaker C: Well, for all kinds of different reasons, you know?
[00:49:24] Speaker B: And if it's. If it's like a family member who's.
[00:49:26] Speaker C: Saying that, you're allowed to say thanks for your opinion, don't share it and.
[00:49:31] Speaker A: Walk away, you know, I'm not a child anymore.
[00:49:34] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But when we did, when we surveyed the 7000 women for she deserves better, what we found is that going to church overall is very beneficial. Okay. For teenage girls growing up, very beneficial. Until that church teaches toxic things like modesty messages and the girls internalize it. And when those churches teach the toxic.
[00:50:00] Speaker B: Things like make girls send management tools.
[00:50:02] Speaker C: For boys, then she would have been better off never going to church at all.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: I agree.
[00:50:07] Speaker B: And that's the scary part.
[00:50:09] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: And so while we say church overall is beneficial, which it is not, all churches are the same.
[00:50:14] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:50:15] Speaker C: And so it really is up to.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Us where we put our daughters, but it's also up to us where do we put ourselves?
[00:50:21] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: You know, because you do matter, too. And if you're at a church that is constantly putting you down or making you feel like you're not enough or that you're a problem or that your.
[00:50:30] Speaker C: Voice is too loud and that you're.
[00:50:33] Speaker B: You have too many opinions, that's probably not the place for you.
[00:50:36] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: Well, like you said, if it's a family member or if it's somebody that you can't necessarily leave or walk away from, then you start to create boundaries.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: And we have to advocate and use our voices. I think even as adults, it's hard to, like, talk back to our parents because we feel like we're going to be in trouble.
[00:50:53] Speaker C: And here's.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: Here's something else that's interesting.
In our survey for she deserves better, we found a.
[00:50:58] Speaker C: That when adult women believe the toxic things, so if an adult woman believes the modesty message, for instance, that girls.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: Have to dress a certain way so.
[00:51:08] Speaker C: They'Re not stumbling block for boys, they.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: Are far more likely to be in destructive marriages themselves. So they're far more likely to be married to someone who watches porn.
[00:51:15] Speaker C: They're far more likely to be in.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: An abusive marriage of some sort.
And so sometimes when women say these things, they're actually revealing a lot about themselves.
[00:51:27] Speaker C: And. Yeah, like a cry for help.
[00:51:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:32] Speaker C: Or, you know, it might be good.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: To check on them.
[00:51:35] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[00:51:36] Speaker C: Like, if a woman, if a woman ever tells you that your daughter. That her husband is finding your daughter a stumbling block for what she's wearing, that should be a red flag that your daughter never babysits for that family. No one ever babysits for that family. You let other people know never to babysit for that family.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Like, this is not. Okay.
[00:51:55] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:51:55] Speaker B: Because when adult women are trying to control what other people are wearing, it is often because of their own inner wounds or their own dynamics in their own families.
[00:52:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:52:05] Speaker D: Wow.
[00:52:06] Speaker A: That makes sense.
[00:52:08] Speaker D: All right.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: What about the idea that girls, and this, and I'm talking again, women adult, so that they were taught growing up that as girls, we can't be friends with boys because they'll get the wrong idea. And so now, even. Right, we've got, like, the Billy Graham rule that a guy can't ever be the same office with a woman or things like that. She said, what's up with that? What's up with girls not being able to be friends with boys or women not being able to be friends with men?
[00:52:34] Speaker B: Well, isn't that interesting that in the.
[00:52:37] Speaker C: Church, we think that all relationships are actually sexual, and I think there's an underlying reason for it, which is this.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: Unhealthy people, and especially unhealthy men, often.
[00:52:52] Speaker C: Sexualize their needs for intimacy.
[00:52:55] Speaker B: So if they want feel connected, they have to have sex.
[00:52:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:52:59] Speaker B: And because sex allows them to feel connected without having to do the work of connection, as Michael John Cusick says.
[00:53:04] Speaker C: So, you know, they have sex to feel connected, but they don't have to connect.
[00:53:08] Speaker B: And a lot of people are very.
[00:53:10] Speaker C: Uncomfortable being in any kind of friendship.
[00:53:13] Speaker B: Or any kind of relationship with someone.
[00:53:15] Speaker C: Of the opposite sex because they don't.
[00:53:16] Speaker B: Know how to do it without sexualizing.
[00:53:18] Speaker C: It, because they were never taught how to express their feelings, how to have emotions, how to have a healthy relationship.
When. When we have something like the Billy.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: Graham rule around, it usually means that.
[00:53:33] Speaker C: People don't know how to have healthy friendships. Okay.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: Chances are those men don't have healthy.
[00:53:38] Speaker C: Friendships with other men either, because people who are able to open up and.
[00:53:43] Speaker B: Say, yeah, this is how I'm feeling.
They don't sexualize everything.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:53:51] Speaker C: You know, and so I think we.
[00:53:52] Speaker B: Have overly sexualized so much in the.
[00:53:54] Speaker C: Church, and we have very. We have encouraged emotionally stunted behavior, and we need to get back to emotional health, where we're allowed to express a wide range of emotions to each other and to God.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: It's not a sin to be angry. It's not a sin to be sad. It's not a sin to feel lonely. It doesn't mean you don't trust God enough.
[00:54:15] Speaker C: You know, we need to get back to being able to express feelings, and.
[00:54:20] Speaker B: Then maybe we will stop sexualizing every.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: Let's go, Sheila. That'll preach. I love that whole thing.
And then it is, like you said, a much bigger issue than sex. It is about our minds and our worldview and the way we see ourselves and see other people and the way we see God. And, I mean, it's just a much bigger thing that.
[00:54:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Wow.
[00:54:42] Speaker A: Yes.
So what you're telling her is basically, she can be friends with men, but maybe be picky if.
[00:54:48] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:54:49] Speaker A: Who she wants to be in friendship with.
[00:54:51] Speaker C: Yes, definitely.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: Well, this has been great. The last question that I always ask everyone, and I recognize that it might be a little bit weird in this scenario where we're talking about a quite personal thing, but how can people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:55:10] Speaker C: I. You know, I think one of the biggest things that we've noticed is that.
[00:55:15] Speaker B: Women are so often silenced and sidelined and ignored.
[00:55:21] Speaker C: And if the church is going to.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: Heal and be healthy, it can't dismiss 50% of its congregants.
[00:55:30] Speaker C: So maybe the way that we be.
[00:55:31] Speaker B: Church is we listen to girls. We encourage them to use their voices, we listen to their opinions, because that's how we tell girls that they matter.
[00:55:40] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: When we tell girls that your job is to grow up and become a.
[00:55:44] Speaker C: Smoking hot wife for some man so.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: That she can be armed candy. And then she gets to raise the.
[00:55:50] Speaker C: Kids and do nothing else, that kind of dismisses all the things that God.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: Put in her, all the gifts that she has. So perhaps the way that we're church is that we just start listening to girls and letting them use their voices.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: Hallelujah, Jesus. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Well, Sheila, we will link up all of your books and your website and everything in the show notes. Is there anything else?
[00:56:15] Speaker C: You.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: You kind of did a drive by. If you've got another. A marriage book coming out soon.
[00:56:20] Speaker B: We do not till the spring.
[00:56:21] Speaker C: It's called the marriage you want, and it's based on our matched pair survey this time. And it's not going to be tearing stuff down. So we have. You know, we have our books that.
[00:56:30] Speaker B: Tear stuff down because it needs to be torn down.
[00:56:31] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:56:32] Speaker C: Great sex rescue. She deserves better. They are so healing.
[00:56:35] Speaker B: Like, trust me.
[00:56:36] Speaker C: Like, just go to Amazon and read.
[00:56:38] Speaker B: The reviews for both great sex rescue.
[00:56:40] Speaker C: And she deserves better. And that's what you see over and over again. It's validating, it's healing, it's freeing, which is great. And then we have our books that.
[00:56:47] Speaker B: Are building from the ground up.
[00:56:48] Speaker C: And I'm really excited about our marriage.
[00:56:49] Speaker B: Book coming out, but.
[00:56:50] Speaker C: But we have our sex books, too. Good girls guide to great sex. Good guys guide to great sex.
[00:56:54] Speaker D: Awesome.
[00:56:55] Speaker A: We'll look forward to that one. I'll just have to get them all for my shelf.
[00:56:59] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:56:59] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
[00:57:00] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:57:05] Speaker A: Okay, I think I'm gonna play that last part on repeat, and repeat and repeat until the whole world hears and believes it. Man, this has been such a fantastic episode, and I hope that you will share it with someone that maybe came to mind or that you have had kind of conversations about sex and intimacy with because I know that if it helps you it can also help to free them from other things and toxic beliefs that they have had as well. I'll link up all of Sheila's books below in the show notes as well as a resource list of all of the other books from different guests and different episodes that we've had here on the podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts on this episode as well. What did you learn? How did it free you? And you can leave all of that in a review on Apple Podcasts like Terminus did when they wrote this.
The message of Jesus is often distorted but this podcast helps make sense of it all. That's our goal and I'm so grateful when you share these episodes so that I can help other people to learn to think about what they believe as well. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep becoming the church to those around.
